34:08 my grandpa was a youth sunday school teacher. He was dismissed by his Lutheran pastor for teaching Mosiah 2. A year later he became a Member of Christ’s restored Church
Ok, so I am about to make you (Stick of Joseph brothers) laugh… I am the mother of four sons all growing up in the 90’s. Growing up they loved all the animal tv shows, Crocodile Hunter being their favorite, their next favorite was the Kratt brothers… watching your podcast for me, is like being back in time and watching the Kratt brothers with my boys Except now rather than teaching us all fun amazing facts about animals, now you are teaching us fun amazing facts about the church, and its book that we love 😁 You guys are awesome!!
Jonathan Neville is awesome! I love his approach to those of different beliefs and opinions. His comments are so insightful and sound. Thank you Stick of Joseph for many outstanding programs!
Clarity, Charity, and Understanding. What wonderful principles to apply when communicating with others! Great guest in Jonathan Neville and great show. Thanks!
For me the “burning feeling” has been my firm foundation for 48 years. It was after that answer that I read the Book of Mormon. I couldn’t get enough of it. It was the most favorite moment of my life.
I gave a brief overview of the heartland model to my 60 year old husband and he blew up defending the meso America theory. Guess some people have zero ability to see another view
@@tjkasglit’s a ridiculous view. It doesn’t follow the science, archaeology or text. It’s all fraud or confirmation bias. It’s akin to flat earth conspiracy theories.
I can send a pic of the opening of a room at the base of the hill Cumoriah . It's there, just like Oliver Cowdry athers said it is. They also said there were feet deep of plates in it, and that Joseph Smith and others moved them. Those plates were the plates of Nephi, from which the Book of Mormon was abridged. Mormon said he only gave Maroni the plates that are the Book of Mormon, and that he put the rest of the plates in a hill. Maroni said he made an abridgment from the plates of Either. Mormon said he did not give Maroni the plates of Either, so Maroni had to go back to where the plates of Nephi were hid to make the abridgement. Then he buried the plates in the same hill. If you believe Oliver Cowdry we have evidence that gives us the logical certainty that the Book of Mormon lands is the heartland of America, because, 1) Maroni could not have carried wagon loads of plates from South of New York let alone Mexico or South America, and 2) he would not have gone all the way to Mexico or South America to get the plates of Either, and not bury them with the gold plates. He did the abridgement in the room at the base of the Hill Cumoriah.
@@GarySaint-xm6tr I have seen those pictures! I think that story needs to get out more but perhaps administrative church officials are worried that if anything conclusive comes it will weaken the faith of people and we may stop seeing surges of baptisms in Central and South America.
Here is a hidden message it's taken my entire life to find: I'm fully convinced that 3 Nephi is a perfect 'shadow,' or model, of how the 2nd Coming is going to play out.
This channel has been vital to answering my questions and doubts, and I believe Heavenly Father sent it my way. I can’t thank you guys enough. I’m going on a mission in the next few months
Yikes 😬 may want to do some more research looking into the Church & church history before going on a mission for these ppl based on lies, propaganda, and false teachings
@@paulhallett1452un former LDS, récently comvrrted to orthodoxy, and i couldn’t be happier! if you are LDS looking for a new home i think it’s the best choice!
I’m glad you teaching these things. I have studied church history on both sides for forty years. I hate it when either side say this is the truth. I am partial to what church teaches but many times they are assuming. It doesn’t matter how he translated the Book of Mormon. The proof is in the pudding. As for me I wasn’t 21 when I found out the church was true. My wife has always known it was true. I have had very great experiences that I needed. But I always wish I would have that kind of faith my wife has had. And she wishes that she could have some of the experiences I have had.
Your getting "the Church is true" confused with "the Book of Mormon is true". Jesus Christ rejected the church with its dead in 1844. He rejected it because the tares had just killed prophets (HEDGE) and broke down the olive trees(churches) and and STOLE THE FRUIT OF THE VINYARD (membership). Now go read dnc 101 and recognize that the TOWER in 101 was the NAUVOO TEMPLE in 124. The second, third, fourth, and fifth presidents of the church were all TARES. SECRET COMBINATIONS. The Lord said the Melchezidec priesthood could NOT be restored to the church again if the temple wasn't completed. THE TEMPLE WAS NEVER COMPLETED. And the Lord never accepted another one. The LDS are NOT the "one true church" just another apostate megachurch. Worldly, and using families as hostages to get their 10%. Drunkards of Ephraim.
I'm not one of the 3 Nephites but my buddy played one in a movie. (Singles 2nd Ward). I have to say that this was a very captivating episode. I love any time Jonathan Neville is on. He is so full of information.
Jonathan, I love yours and Rod Meldrum's works! I have listened to every one of your interviews on RUclips. You always do a great job explaining how JS III embraced U&T and plate translation and dismissed Emma's Last Testimony by not referring to it when he defended his father against David Whitmer's STITH claims to prove JS was a fallen prophet.; but you fail to mention another great point in your book, By Means of the U&T. In that book, you cited a letter Emma had written, nine years prior to her deathbed testimony , in response to her friend’s inquiry about BOM translation. In that letter Emma stated JS used the U&T and plates while translating the first 116 pages. She mentioned JS used a stone after that but she couldn't recall the details because she couldn't find her books or her copies of the Times and Seasons articles . This shows she wasn't a first hand witness to him doing that. It's also funny that in answering her friend's translation question, Emma's memory had failed her. Seems she had forgotten that she had sat hour after hour writing as Joseph dictated with his face buried in his hat as he read words off a stone. If she was able to remember those details so well on her deathbed, why wasn't she able to recall them when she wrote her response to her friend nine years earlier? Emma, herself, through this letter, discredits the reliability and credibility of her Last testimony.
When my girls were little, and we taught them about Nephi’s vision, every time we got to the point where it says he saw our day, I would tell my girls to wave to Nephi because he sees us
1:25:16 This gives way to the idea that the gold plates weren't just in a stone box. There must've been a room where the multiple sets of plates were in Cumorah
This really is a good demonstration of the Deuteronomists...review of history and over zealousness to specific interpretations also manifested throughout various conflicts in the Book of Mormon as an echo of the conflicts brought about by our tendency to repeat the Deuteronomist phenomenon
I would love someone to answer my question. Let me start by saying I’ve always been embarrassed to ask it but it’s always always confused me how we hold reverence for Emma Smith. Now I’m not saying we need to be mean or anything but when ppl bring up the faithfulness or what a great women she is I never get it. Are we just referring to the time that she was married to Joseph bcuz everything I know (and I could be ill informed) she complained a lot, never had a straight story, and then left the church when Joseph died ? Can someone explain what or why the church members love about her or why they look to her as any sort of example for women in the church. Im open to comments but definitely would love an episode about what I’m missing or where I’m misinformed cuz I don’t believe it’s just me that isn’t getting it.
When I was a child our history book told us of the Taino indians that lived in Puerto Rico before being colonized considered Spaniards "white gods" that could not die. So when the Tainos got tired of being slaves they decided to prove if Spaniards were truly gods. So they were traveling alone with Diego Salcedo and offered to carry him on their shoulders so he wouldn't get wet. In the middle of the river they drowned him and carried him to the river bank and waited til the third day to see if he would resurrect, he didn't and the Tainos began fighting the Spaniards. So in my twenty's when I heard Christ had visited America from the missionaries I knew it was true, why else would the Tainos wait 3 days for Diego to resurrect. I love when facts fall in place with my testimony, when not then I hold onto faith. 😊
1:27:47 just finished reading all three saints volumes. sorry bro the sources in the saints books suck! They don’t use footnotes extensively, references sparingly AND they reference other church material as the source (meaning church magazines, talks etc) and not the ORIGINAL source. There are huge disclosures at the end of each book hedging itself that they attempted to have good references and some of it may be inaccurate but it’s not on purpose and it’s to the best of our knowledge and that they acknowledge using sources that are antagonistic to the church but “feel” those sources have been carefully vettedEtc… the disclosures actually gave me comfort knowing that I don’t have to accept Saints as an accurate history.
Love this. My testimony of the restored gospel was based Joseph Smith first vision. I knew it was true after I heard. i had not even read the Book of Mormon yet. That came later slowly and while in the MTC I had a strong confirmation while praying about it.
I read the Testimony of Joseph Smith first (it was included in the beginning of certain editions of the Book of Mormon years ago). I, too, knew that he was telling the truth... So I had a testimony of the Prophet before my testimony of the Book of Mormon, but it was very shortly after, I knew the Book of Mormon was true. It was like the missing piece in understanding the gospel for me.
Great show! I love hearing Jonathan Neville, he sticks to the facts and makes so much sense. I do need, however, one point of clarity; 1:29:50 - He discusses “the messenger” ….as I read versus 59 & 60 of JS-H I feel like I am reading about one messenger (Moroni) in both verses not a separate messenger (one of the 3 nephites) whom he delivers the plates to in Harmony as the narrative is told. It makes sense to me that he turns in the plates to one of the three Nephites whom they later see on the road to Fayette, however, it doesn’t seem like that’s what Joseph Smith is describing in JS-H 59-60. Anybody like to describe this discrepancy?
The stone in the hat makes more sense to me than the official interpreters. It was something common that would not make every scribe or witness a special witness of the sacred relic that the ancient stones were. I think Joseph Smith most likely used both. What about Martin Harris’s telling of switching the stone? Could not the dark stone have been referred to as a urim and thumim, or interpreter? Just because it was a dark stone does not make it evil inherently, speaking of not making conclusions and just talking about facts.
The interesting thing is that Emma said that the Interpreters were used prior to the plates being taken. Some individuals said that he put the Interpreters in the hat, both as spectacles and perhaps one of the individual stones. Thus, if Martin's story is true, it does verify that Joseph was using one of the Interpreter stones in the hat. Seems like he continued to do that for the entire Book of Mormon. Emma's statement is that he used the brown stone so that is a contradictory statement.
@@jerrygrover8992 Emma could have been telling the truth and Joseph could have also used the dark stone. Two things can be true. I can’t even tell when you are referring to the stones that came with the plates or the dark stone, or if all three could be called interpreters or urim and thumim when you are speaking, much less testimony from so long ago. We are going to find out the answers to these questions when we meet Joseph Smith ourselves. I am looking forward to it, but I’m going to wait a while I hope 😬
@@jerrygrover8992 do you remember that there was one of the 8 witnesses running with the mobs in Missouri making sure the saints all left. He was one of the Whitmer boys. When one of the persecuted saints called him out in front of the gang he said “ I saw the plates, but I don’t know if what they said was true, I couldn’t read them” or something like that. Imagine if that brainchild had to bear an additional burden of being a witness who the saw the interpreters which came with the plates. To me it would condemn him, or anyone else who became a special witness of the interpreters if they had more sacred knowledge then their faith could contain. I feel like using the dark, common stone was an act of mercy. Kind of like when Christ taught in parables.
@@Kaydubbbb I don't disagree, I was just saying that there a lot of possibilities. That particular one maybe arrives with a narrative with the least amount of contradictions. As far as meeting Joseph Smith in the afterlife, he will probably have to come visit me knowing the kingdom I am likely to be found in.
I like the possibility of discovering one of three Nephite names however, I was just reading in 4 Nephi 1:19 where it said Nephi died, and gave the records to his son Amos, would that not have been referring to the disciple Nephi the senior disciple which Christ chose when He appeared to the Nephites? I would think that if Nephi were one of the three Nephites it would not have mentioned him having died? Scanning through the names of the disciples Christ chose, there was only on named Nephi. They all, however, would likely refer to themselves as Nephites.
This guy knows everything. I think he needs to spend a little more time with actual references and less hearsay. With the Joseph Smith papers, anyone can find things for themselves.
NO, he said it was a SUGGESTION. Unfortunately, the scholars have overly influenced the brethren. This false notion is promoted in the Gospel Topics Essays on the Translation and in Saints Vol 1 and in the Church Magazines. Joseph and Oliver were the most familiar with the translation and they always said it was done only with the Urim and Thummim!
@@brucelloyd7496can you explain how both David Whitmer and Emma Smith gave independent statements separated by many years and thousands of miles that match perfectly on the actual translation method?
17:00 " I was promoting Messo American stuff because I didn't know any better an yet a lot of people had faith in that and that's find as long as it leads unto Christ" When I was 12 years old, my father bought me a 60X telescope. I looked at the moon and could see the craters clearly. So, I pointed it towards a star, expecting to see a sun. However, it appeared as a bright star. Although I had zero knowledge of astronomy at the time, for some reason, I thought a star was not just a twinkling light. I played with the focus, and voilà, it became a flaming sun. What I had inadvertently done was invert the image from a star to a sun. I showed my friends, and they then believed that a star was not just a twinkling light but a distant sun. Even though that image was false, it still led to truth.
Ironic that Mr. Neville teaches no contention on BOM geography, than always makes condescending statements to the effect that "when I was stupid and ignorant I believed in the Mesoamerican model, but then I received knowledge and revelation and now support this model". He also make statements that Heartlanders are the only ones that really believe in Joseph Smith. I find it humorous because he is actually the one promoting contention with this holier than thou attitude and statements. One thing that is never mentioned is that these people are making money off of their ventures, kind of priest craft if you ask me.
At 1:31:50 they wonder if one of the translated Apostles in America, named Nephi, is watching their show, and that he should comment. Jonathan says that he should tell the names of the other two because they're dying to know. In 3 Neph 19:4 gives the names of all 12, with Nephi being first. For what it's worth, someone who claims to have met all three, and wishes to remain anonymous, said that their names are Nephi, Timothy, the brother of Nephi, and who Nephi raised from the dead; and Isaiah, who he said looked Native American.
Loved this episode! This rings so true to me. Makes so much sense. Don’t pay attention to the naysayers. Just because one has never been exposed to an idea like 2 sets of plates does not make it false or made up. It definitely has made great discussion!
Truth, we must seek truth and don't care what others think. A lover of truth never gets offended by the truth, they embrace it, only fools despise the truth and hate it for it cuts them to the center. We must be linked Mormon when he said, "fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear." We must seek to please the Lord in all things no matter what. The Savior Jesus Christ is our perfect example and never worried about what other people thought about him, nor did he seek to please them. Jesus Christ only saught to please his Father. Jesus taught the truth, spoke the truth, lived the truth and is the truth, so yah we need to Kerp that as our model to follow. Remember what he said, " What manner of man ought ye to be?" We should never be ashamed of the truth or be afraid what others may think or feel. We should only worry about how to please our Heavenly Father and God and bear witness of his Son Jesus Christ our Savior. We should seek for truth, testify of the truth, live the truth and stand for truth at all times in all things in all places even unto death. Let us remember that "Light and truth forsake that evil one." 🙏🏽❤️
There are a few points that SITH-promoting scholars like to point out regarding the Urim and Thummim: - There is no record of Joseph himself initially referring to the interpreters as “the Urim and Thummim” until years after finishing the Book of Mormon. - The term, Urim and Thummim, is never mentioned once in the Book of Mormon. - The term is biblical and was never referred to as something used for translating ancient texts. - It is possible Joseph and Oliver adopted the term to describe the Nephite interpreters as such to sort of entice biblically minded individuals to the Book of Mormon. - Some historians support the theory that Joseph disassembled the interpreters and the stones that were framed therein, were still used for the translation process.
I was a child sitting in my Baptist Sunday school when I was first taught that everyone is going to hell if they aren't Baptised. That began a search to find the truth, bc if that was true, then God isn't someone who loves all of his children and I couldn't follow Him. Somehow, many Christians don't think of that bc the word Dead, means the person doesn't exist anymore. They don't consider that they are still alive! After I joined the Church my mother's reaction was What? You baptize Dead People? Its just something she had never even thought about!
The thing I have with the Heartland model is if it's true, why are neither snow nor ice ever mentioned in the BOM? Those are very prominent weather problems that any civilization would have encountered.
I’d been searching this recently and discovered 4 Nephi 1 : 19 in which Nephi dies. So it doesn’t look like he (Nephi the “chief” apostle) ( 1:26:12 ) could be one of the translated 3 Nephites.
When I first joined the church, I would take my scriptures to work and a work friend loved reading the Ensign. That was over 26 years ago, I wonder if Bibi ever joined the church.
I like Neville’s theory about the two sets, but it makes it hard to understand the function of the book of Words of Mormon in the location it is in. I would love to hear him talk about that.
This is an excellent point and I would like to hear his explanation for it. Thinking out loud here, but one possible explanation to make that work is that the Words of Mormon where contained with the small plates and were meant to explain why those set of plates were also included. I read through Words of Mormon again and verses 6 and 10 seem pertinent to this. 6. But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren. ... 10. Wherefore, it came to pass that after Amaleki had delivered up these plates into the hands of king Benjamin, he took them and put them with the other plates, which contained records which had been handed down by the kings, from generation to generation until the days of king Benjamin. In both cases Mormon uses the phrase "put them with". So there is a possibility of Mormon putting the small plates in the same pile/stack but not bound together. I'll say I'm open to it, but it's not a straight forward assumption.
I have thought of the different plates and the odds of them being in the same way the other plates were bound like they had a standard three hole punch they always used to mass produce plates for all the school kids to pick up at the beginning of the year. So it makes sense the different sets were put “with” eachother like a school text book and the workbook for the class in a backpack. ALSO, wasn’t there something about “the title page” being “the last leaf” of the plates? I would think that same treatment would happen for the small plates with Words of Mormon.
@@martinisaksen1 I went ahead and read it again, and I think you may be onto something. I think he might have added this to the small plates right before he wrote mormon 7 where he talks about the prophecies that are dealt with heavily in the small plates. They do seem to be obsessed with provenance with the rest of the plates so it would make since to add this built in at the end of the text before it gets put on the pile. Obviously Mormon knows how to make plates, so maybe he was adding explanations to all the plates as he went through them. That would answer the question, however I then start to wonder why the end of Words of Mormon spends time catching up history to the large plates in the last 5 verses or so. If it was separate, and the abridgment was still whole, why did Moroni feel the need to catch the history up?
@@dannyd7426 That makes perfect sense. Although I think Mormon could make new plates at the right size if he wanted to. He obviously knows how to make them. Here's a weird thing I thought about the other day. For those people who think that Joseph made the entire thing up, why don't they give him credit for creating the D ring binder?????
Faith is knowing without seeing. I enjoy rationality but I do not try at all costs to find a rational explanation to my faith. The risk is that if we don't find any, our faith is weakened because it has been trained to partly lean upon rational evidence (things that are seen). I saw many members leaving the church because of too many intellectual issues. On the contrary, I see strong members abounding in faith with fewer of these intellectual luggage. When I engage in discussions, the best answer I find when it applies is that God commanded so without trying to find deep explanations or making assumptions when there aren't any that are rational.
At 39:30 he testifies of something incredibly special candidly and honestly. Did he just say that the Lord revealed Himself to Jonathan? I think he did.
Did y’all see the article today from Panama? They found a tomb from 750AD-ish that had two gold plates buried in it. But i think they were of the food bearing variety, unfortunately
At 51:24 your guest said, "It (the Book of Mormon) says they have to be baptized." referring to people who have never heard of Jesus. I'm interested in the chapter and verse he is referencing when he says that, for Jacob, the brother of Nephi in his sermon to his people clearly states that the atonement of Christ extends the mercies of the Holy One unto all those without the law: ... the Lord God ... has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them because of the atonement, for they are delivered by the power of him. For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell ... which is Endless torement. And they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel. I'm not trying to persuade you of anything, but simply pointing out a fact. You may choose to edit the video or make a comment about this below but to me, it seems as if your guest does not understand the power of the atonement. And your comment about the little 6-year-old girl in India who you wondered if she would end up in hell because she would never hear of Jesus Christ; your point, which was vague, was that you thought that baptism for the dead would save her... well that makes me wonder if you understand the atonement of Christ.
I think when he said "It says they have to be baptized..." He is referring to the scriptures that clearly state baptism is essential, which is in the Bible, or the gospel in general. And the Bible does clearly state that we must be baptized. We know that once someone has died, they can still hear the gospel on the other side, hence their no longer neutral, they are then to accept the gospel, ie. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repent, baptism and receive the Holy Ghost (which is also perfect vicariously in the temples). Faith and repentance are something they can do on the other side, or in death.
And the host that stayed he couldn't believe that a little girl in India would go to hell, was rejecting the belief that many other Christian churches have. It was literally that exact preaching that made me leave the Baptist faith. I knew God had a better way, and would not do that. I knew God enough to know he was much more merciful than that. From 17 to 19 years old I searched for truth mostly with more independent Bible study and learning about other faiths (albeit more diligently at times than others). It was only when after reading and praying , I felt prompted to find a church to attend. I figured if I had to, I would just visit churches of all kinds - wherever I felt led by God to go. I remembered that in the Bible, it said His church would be called by His name, so I pondered, and had previously heard of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints decided to go the following day with a family member who had joined a few years prior. Soon I began Book of Mormon, and knew it was true that first night reading it! Not sure why I shared all of that, but line up on line I was brought into truth... And still am learning at 45! I feel so blessed to have so much truth!
FYI I looked up the two accounts of messengers 1) about the Nephite on the road to Fayette that was headed to Cumorah and 2) Mary Whitmer being shown the plates 1) Soon they were on their way to Fayette, some one hundred miles away. On this occasion Moroni took the plates to avoid danger while transporting them. Another unusual event occurred en route. It happened while they were riding along in the wagon. David Whitmer described the event: “A very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with, ‘good morning, it is very warm,’ at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and, by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, ‘No, I am going to Cumorah.’ This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked around enquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared. … “… It was the messenger who had the plates, who had taken them from Joseph just prior to our starting from Harmony.” “Report of Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith,” p. 772. ***It says Moroni was the one who took the plates. 2) Much of the extra work of having these guests fell on Mary Whitmer, but she never complained. One day, as she went to the barn to milk the cows, she met a kindly old man, who was actually the angel Moroni, who had the plates at that time. Moroni said to her, “You have been very faithful and diligent in your labors, but you are tired because of the increase of your toil; it is proper therefore that you should receive a witness that your faith may be strengthened.” Then he showed her the gold plates. This experience strengthened the whole Whitmer family. (See “Report of Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith,” Millennial Star, 9 Dec. 1878, pp. 772-73; see also Church History in the Fulness of Times [Church Educational System manual (32502), 1993], pp. 57-58.) ***This also says it was Moroni. I could not find an account of any of the three Nephites in either of these two stories. However, there was this story that made reference to three strangers... Before he [David Whitmer] could take his wagon to pick up Joseph and Oliver, however, David had to prepare his fields for the spring planting. When he went out to start plowing the soil in the morning, David discovered that someone had plowed part of the fields already. This person had done a very good job and left the plow in a furrow, ready for the work to continue. At the end of a day of plowing, David found he had accomplished in one day what normally would have taken two days to do. David’s father, Peter Whitmer Sr., was impressed with this miracle and said, “There must be an overruling hand in this, and I think you would better go down to Pennsylvania as soon as your plaster of paris is sown” (quoted in Lucy Mack Smith, History of Joseph Smith, p. 148). Farmers in that area added plaster of paris to the soil to make it less acidic. The next day David went to the place he had left the plaster, near his sister’s house, but the plaster was gone. His sister told him that the day before, she and her children had seen three strangers spreading the plaster with great speed and skill. She had assumed they were men David had hired, but David knew they were helpers provided by the Lord. (the Three Nephites?) ***I'm confused. I would just like to know the sources Jonathan was using. And why would they be so different? I did not get this from "The Saints" book, but the Church's website. I'm not saying he is wrong, but where do I get the correct story/account? If the Church's website cannot get the stories correct, then how are we suppose to know what is right? I don't have the time to completely delve into every sources available. I thought I would receive the correct information on the Church's website! This is troubling to me.
Jonathan Neville said that Andrew Jenson heard Mary’s story, but corrected her - she said he introduced himself as Nephi (as in 3 Nephi), but Andrew thought it must have been Moroni.
@@bethanytredway6111 But where do I find the original account that Mary says he introduced himself as Nephi or Bro. Nephi before Jenson "corrected" her statement?
How can we tell which Mormon church is the right one?? Well... ask yourself which one is taking their gospel faith to the four corners of the earth?? 😉😇
Great interview guys! Just a question of clarification: The idea that there were TWO sets of plates, and that Joseph only got Mormon's plates (with plates of lehi included) from Cumorah in sept 1827, and got the small plates of Nephi later (delivered to him in Fayette)... that is a fascinating idea. Makes sense.. So, how do we reconcile Mormon himself saying - "I shall take these plates (small plates of Nephi), which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and PUT THEM WITH the remainder of my record" Words of Mormon 1:6. Seems pretty clear there they were put together. Just wondering yours (and Jonathan's) thoughts on that. Thanks!
Context always matters… if you compare the things Emma said side by side when Joseph was living, against the things she said married to her second husband, they do not match When Joseph was alive he was the head of the church, after his death Brigham Young was the head … she was a deeply hurt woman, her life with her second husband was not happy People who are hurt and not happy say things they would never say otherwise I personally hold the words of Emma before the death of Joseph in higher standing, than the words she says while married to her second husband Context matters…
Why waste time trying to explain to those who refute a book they've never read. I've read the book many, many times. No man could write such a book. Read 2 Nephi 9, carefully. There are many other chapters like it, so complex, so powerful. As i said, what value is it to go on and on talking about other people's opinions about a book they've never read. Stop already
I came across a video discussing the Essene community at Kumran. In this video they show that their community has 3 sections like the 3 temple sections discussed in your other videos.Enjoy😊
Words of Mormon 1:6 "But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren." One set of plates...
Really love your channel. (All 3 of us do, as well as Moses, John, and all the others.) I'm here visiting my friend here in Independence, Missouri and thought I'd leave this message on his account since I don't have a RUclips or Google account. Brother Nephi
Not, really, I cannot tell a lie, or, I guess I should say, I can, but not for long, and only in fun. But I can imagine that if Brother Nephi or any of the others were to view your channel, they would want you to know that they love it. At least I do. Sorry that I'm not as famous as one of the 3 Nephites, but I'm all I've got and I do the best I can, most of the time... or some of the time.
There is no evidence that the "spectacles" were given to the brother of Jared, it only indicates two stones. The evidence is that the metal spectacles had to have been constructed by the Nephites after finding the stones and the plates of the brother of Jared.
Two Testaments? Hmmm. Didn't that already happen in the Bible? Wasn't the whole point of the Bible to testify to the House of Judah the significance of Christ's role in their history? One of my favorite moments of insights of Christ through His own words: "O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them?"
If you believe the stone theory you have to 100% believe that Joseph Smith didn't know what he said, that he's stupid in saying that he used the Urim and Thummim. Every single incident he says he used the Urim and Thummim and NEVER a stone. Do you believe Joseph? In a court of law the stone theory would be thrown out as hearsay.
Great show. I love Jonathon Neville's insights. He's done the work to find as many original sources as possible for his ideas. I think sometimes we have preconceived notions and close our minds to truth.
No one said that the Church is perfect. But it has the organization, ordinances & teachings that, if utilized righteously can exalt individuals and families. Do you think that the Community of Christ leaders hold the Melchizedek Priesthood? They have a female Prophet. How do you feel about that?
The Book of Mormon is ultimately supposed to lead people to the Church, but true that it's never supposed to be about merely and shallowly bolstering membership numbers.
41:23-:30 the new Book of Mormon intro. also grates me every time, and am left wondering how long I will have to hold onto my present set of scriptures. just one more example of a connection for why I enjoy brother Neville's point view. For me it's erasing the phrase "as does the Bible".
Oliver Huntington states on page 43 of his journal that Joseph Smith told him that the Three Nephites were Kumenonhi, Jeremiah and Zedekiah. Me posting this is not to make anyone believe it. I am merely reporting what has been stated elsewhere.
Hello Gentlemen, Friends call me Jack Mormon. Yes, I live contrary to church standards.The gospel is simple to understand and adhere to for answers to prayers. Joseph Smith Is the Lord's chosen prophet who translated the Book of Mormon. End of story. With all due respect your discussion is a waste of your time because why do you feel that you need to convince those people with shallow testimonies who need constant reassurance. My experience is they are too lazy to earn their testimony. Heavenly Father listens to my daily petitions in the name of His son the Lord Jesus Christ and responds always in a timely fashion, oftentimes miraculously. When your prayers are being answered- count your many blessings and represent the Lord respectfully in your life. 1 John 5:15, “And if we know that he hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him.”
Let us please remember that for faith to be good, it must be faith in a true thing. Truth is things as they ARE, as they WERE and as they ARE TO COME. This means they don't change with a wave of "facts". Thus the need to have, not only a called, living, prophet, but a prophet who will do as section 18 of the Doctrine and Covenants and "[He] shall testify they [these words] are of me and not of man;" When we begin again to have answers to these questions that come in the way that the God commanded they come, then we will have truth, and only then. Till then, we are left to worship the Gods of science! And I, personally, will have none of that, because it is a mass of confusion.
I realised that Christianity is based on the belief that the new testament is additional scripture to what the Jews have...but try and tell them we have additional scripture in our day and you're certifiable ...great argument to make though...
"The Saints Book?" Never heard of it...but interested...what's the proper title? Perhaps it's best to address references or post them in their whole title form somewhere for those just catching this along the way?
@@netherquartz8946 did a search on that and I found a book called "Saints" on Catholic Saints...I don't think that's the one - anyone got a link so I don't get the wrong book?
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:v8
that was interesting interview. thanks for hosting it. It reminded me of the time I had a conversation with a friend that believed in the hollow earth theory. He was so passionate about it, just like this guy seems to be. I can see why so many people like to listen to his story telling. But it definitely felt like story telling sprinkled with some facts. Not a fan of the few times he had to throw some shade on actual historians in order to keep his narrative afloat. But overall, good interview.
He’s not throwing shade. He’s joking about the fact that some meso theory believers get legitimately contentious toward him and others who see the Heartland model as more accurate. I like the light hearted joking about disagreement better than attacks.
I did listen to the complete program, but have not read any of Rod's books. If he is a credentialed church historian I stand corrected. But there were too many dismals of other historians in the discussion for my comfort. no harm no foul, just interesting.
Hey Jackson, Barbie here... So I'm listening here, and Jackson asks "why would the Lord go to all that trouble to give Moriancumur the urim and thummum and saying the language was confounded... So it makes me ask, Did Moroni use the Urim and Thummum when he abridged Ether's record? (I know we don't know because he didn't say. )
Moroni would have used King Mosiah's translation. See Mosiah 8:13 and Mosiah 28:11- 16. Apparently, Mosiah had the "stones in the rim of a bow" similar to the ones Moroni gave to Joseph Smith. King Mosiah used those stones to translate Ether's record. Moroni simply abridged Mosiah's translation.
@@jeffah3103 The U&T given to the brother of Jared was handed down through the Jaredite generations to Coriantumr and eventually to Joseph Smith. He lived with the Mulekites for 9 moons and carved his history on a large stone. When he died the U&T and the carved stone fell into Mulekite hands. After Mosiah the First became king of the people of Nephi and the Mulekites, the large stone and the U&T was taken to Mosiah who translated the stone. This U&T was handed down through Nephite generations to Mormon, Moroni and Joseph Smith. Moroni didn't have Mosiah the 2nd translation of the 24 plates (only a partial because some things couldn't be revealed until after the resurrection) 500 years later so he went to the source, the 24 Jaredite plates. I wouldn't be surprised of Mormon used the Urim and Thummim to create the abridged record because the language evolved over 1,000 years.
@brucelloyd7496 Just curious. Why would wicked Coriantumr have the Urim and Thummin that belonged to the Brother of Jared? If any part of your theory is true, Ether, the last Jaredite prophet, would have had the U&T stones and hidden them with the 24 gold plates as found by the people of Limhi. Do you really think the Lord would entrust Seer stones that gave prophets the ability to see the entirety of God's creations to a wicked man like Cotiantumr? Really? Please go back and read. And remember Moroni abridges the record of Ether. He very easily could have used several source materials, including Mosiah's translation. Do you really think that Nephite language changed that much between King Mosiah (abt 100 BC) and Moroni (400 AD)? Really? That's why the Nephites had written records to keep the language from changing too much. Moroni was not ignorant of Mosiah language, just as English speakers of today aren't ignorant of Shakespeare (500 years difference). No one I know needs an U&T type instrument to read Shakespeare. Do you?
Jackson your comment at the about the 3 Nephites had me laughing. 😂 So funny. In all seriousness though I bet they are subscribers and watch your podcast. If you were them wouldn’t you watch something that you were personally involved with? That you had spent years of your life teaching and in their case hundreds of years.
Gaining a testimony of the Book of Mormon generally leads to a greater testimony of Jesus Christ but also of Joseph Smith as a prophet which leads them to the church and to making covenants. They are usually connected. One usually leads to the other.
As a longtime member of the church, I am not particularly interested what his manner of translation was. Both methods, the arm and thumb as well as the Seer Stone could have been used and still come up with a reliable translation. You should have at least some understanding of how either of them work and considering they work through the same primary method, provided you understand such things in the first place, that is not a problem I have. The problem that I have is the stories of Joseph Smith having been a polygamist which none of them occur until after his death. There is a plethora of personal journals and times over and over again for Joseph Smith was preaching against the practice of polygamy and had only come up with the idea of Eternal Marriage. Supported by the fact that we can look at some of the writings of Joseph Smith and show where some of them are fraudulent and some of them have been added to in order to support this clearly wrong concept of plural marriage which is said to be forbidden in the Book of Mormon just like the practice that they took up of not allowing blacks to enter the temples and eventually restricting the priesthood to them in direct violation of Book of Mormon scripture and that act alone was never declared to be revelatory. There is a lot to unwrap in the lies that were told to rid the Church of Joseph Smith even the changing of the name and Brigham Young doing things that only the prophet is allowed to do while Joseph Smith was still alive. The church has to get this period of time straight and face it if they are ever to move forward. It's good that this man is on because for a while when I was younger I thought that mesoamerica might have been a place for the Book of Mormon. However Joseph Smith never ever broach the subject. Every single descriptor he gave indicated this country. He never even said they landed in South America like I was hearing for a while and that never made any sense to me why in the world would you travel across the Pacific Ocean when traveling across the Atlantic Ocean which is what they did, would have been a much smaller pittance of time.
The Illustrated Stories From Church History book series for children, shows the “no I am going to Cumorah” account Oliver describes in volume 2 page 25… page 23 even has the account of angels plowing the fields of the Whitmer farm miraculously, so that David could even go and pick Joseph and Oliver up! There was a long period of time when the truth was taught, this book series was published in Provo Utah in 1973
The Lord likely doesn’t want to hurt feelings by stating the obvious on BofM location. Anyone who is unaware of the two main suspected geography models and given the pro’s/con’s of each side would likely choose heartland. It is so much more logical. (Prior Meso theory believer).
My dad was a fan of the Book of Mormon but he never thought it was literal history. He felt like the story was metaphorical like the OT stories like Noah and the ark or Jonah and the whale. Therefore, the argument of heartland vs meso America was unnecessary. I know that’s a minority opinion.
Ill send you guys like invisible cloak for a shout out in the next video. Specifically for my baby boy about to be born on the 22nd....think on it fellas.
Hey, this is Jeff, Whitaker’s dad. Thanks for the shout out. He loved it - almost as much as he loved the fireside. Keep cranking out great content!
You guys are a cool family!
That's hilarious
34:08 my grandpa was a youth sunday school teacher. He was dismissed by his Lutheran pastor for teaching Mosiah 2. A year later he became a Member of Christ’s restored Church
Ok, so I am about to make you (Stick of Joseph brothers) laugh… I am the mother of four sons all growing up in the 90’s. Growing up they loved all the animal tv shows, Crocodile Hunter being their favorite, their next favorite was the Kratt brothers… watching your podcast for me, is like being back in time and watching the Kratt brothers with my boys
Except now rather than teaching us all fun amazing facts about animals, now you are teaching us fun amazing facts about the church, and its book that we love
😁
You guys are awesome!!
So now they’re spreading lies, nonsense, & propaganda.
Niccccce… 😆
Yes!!!!!my kids grew up in the 90s and loved the Kraft brothers too and Yes! A lot like them🥰😂
Jonathan Neville is awesome! I love his approach to those of different beliefs and opinions. His comments are so insightful and sound.
Thank you Stick of Joseph for many outstanding programs!
Clarity, Charity, and Understanding. What wonderful principles to apply when communicating with others! Great guest in Jonathan Neville and great show. Thanks!
Lol aka “continue to give us your money, so we can satisfy our greeds & lust and feed you lies and propaganda”
For me the “burning feeling” has been my firm foundation for 48 years. It was after that answer that I read the Book of Mormon. I couldn’t get enough of it. It was the most favorite moment of my life.
Jonathan is phenomenal! Quality content. Thanks Brothers!
The Book of Mormon is The greatest book ever written and I can’t wait for the rest of it!
Absolutely love hearing Jonathan Neville!!! Thanks for this most amazing interview!
Anytime I mention The Heartland, I lose subs like crazy. Thanks for having Jonathan Neville on again!
I gave a brief overview of the heartland model to my 60 year old husband and he blew up defending the meso America theory. Guess some people have zero ability to see another view
@@tjkasglit’s a ridiculous view. It doesn’t follow the science, archaeology or text. It’s all fraud or confirmation bias. It’s akin to flat earth conspiracy theories.
I can send a pic of the opening of a room at the base of the hill Cumoriah . It's there, just like Oliver Cowdry athers said it is. They also said there were feet deep of plates in it, and that Joseph Smith and others moved them. Those plates were the plates of Nephi, from which the Book of Mormon was abridged. Mormon said he only gave Maroni the plates that are the Book of Mormon, and that he put the rest of the plates in a hill. Maroni said he made an abridgment from the plates of Either. Mormon said he did not give Maroni the plates of Either, so Maroni had to go back to where the plates of Nephi were hid to make the abridgement. Then he buried the plates in the same hill. If you believe Oliver Cowdry we have evidence that gives us the logical certainty that the Book of Mormon lands is the heartland of America, because,
1) Maroni could not have carried wagon loads of plates from South of New York let alone Mexico or South America, and
2) he would not have gone all the way to Mexico or South America to get the plates of Either, and not bury them with the gold plates. He did the abridgement in the room at the base of the Hill Cumoriah.
@@GarySaint-xm6tr I have seen those pictures! I think that story needs to get out more but perhaps administrative church officials are worried that if anything conclusive comes it will weaken the faith of people and we may stop seeing surges of baptisms in Central and South America.
No one agrees with anyone 100%, silly to unsubscribe for mentioning one thing you don't agree with
Here is a hidden message it's taken my entire life to find:
I'm fully convinced that 3 Nephi is a perfect 'shadow,' or model, of how the 2nd Coming is going to play out.
This channel has been vital to answering my questions and doubts, and I believe Heavenly Father sent it my way. I can’t thank you guys enough. I’m going on a mission in the next few months
Yikes 😬 may want to do some more research looking into the Church & church history before going on a mission for these ppl based on lies, propaganda, and false teachings
Or it’s the algorithm at work.
Book of Abraham. Swords and horses. Virgin of Guadalupe and Catholicism - there is a true Church - OBVIOUSLY- Jesus is God and he founded it
@@paulhallett1452un former LDS, récently comvrrted to orthodoxy, and i couldn’t be happier! if you are LDS looking for a new home i think it’s the best choice!
I’m glad you teaching these things. I have studied church history on both sides for forty years. I hate it when either side say this is the truth. I am partial to what church teaches but many times they are assuming. It doesn’t matter how he translated the Book of Mormon. The proof is in the pudding.
As for me I wasn’t 21 when I found out the church was true. My wife has always known it was true. I have had very great experiences that I needed. But I always wish I would have that kind of faith my wife has had. And she wishes that she could have some of the experiences I have had.
Your getting "the Church is true" confused with "the Book of Mormon is true". Jesus Christ rejected the church with its dead in 1844. He rejected it because the tares had just killed prophets (HEDGE) and broke down the olive trees(churches) and and STOLE THE FRUIT OF THE VINYARD (membership).
Now go read dnc 101 and recognize that the TOWER in 101 was the NAUVOO TEMPLE in 124. The second, third, fourth, and fifth presidents of the church were all TARES. SECRET COMBINATIONS. The Lord said the Melchezidec priesthood could NOT be restored to the church again if the temple wasn't completed. THE TEMPLE WAS NEVER COMPLETED. And the Lord never accepted another one. The LDS are NOT the "one true church" just another apostate megachurch. Worldly, and using families as hostages to get their 10%. Drunkards of Ephraim.
I'm not one of the 3 Nephites but my buddy played one in a movie. (Singles 2nd Ward). I have to say that this was a very captivating episode. I love any time Jonathan Neville is on. He is so full of information.
Jonathan, I love yours and Rod Meldrum's works! I have listened to every one of your interviews on RUclips. You always do a great job explaining how JS III embraced U&T and plate translation and dismissed Emma's Last Testimony by not referring to it when he defended his father against David Whitmer's STITH claims to prove JS was a fallen prophet.; but you fail to mention another great point in your book, By Means of the U&T. In that book, you cited a letter Emma had written, nine years prior to her deathbed testimony , in response to her friend’s inquiry about BOM translation. In that letter Emma stated JS used the U&T and plates while translating the first 116 pages. She mentioned JS used a stone after that but she couldn't recall the details because she couldn't find her books or her copies of the Times and Seasons articles . This shows she wasn't a first hand witness to him doing that. It's also funny that in answering her friend's translation question, Emma's memory had failed her. Seems she had forgotten that she had sat hour after hour writing as Joseph dictated with his face buried in his hat as he read words off a stone. If she was able to remember those details so well on her deathbed, why wasn't she able to recall them when she wrote her response to her friend nine years earlier? Emma, herself, through this letter, discredits the reliability and credibility of her Last testimony.
When my girls were little, and we taught them about Nephi’s vision, every time we got to the point where it says he saw our day, I would tell my girls to wave to Nephi because he sees us
1:25:16 This gives way to the idea that the gold plates weren't just in a stone box. There must've been a room where the multiple sets of plates were in Cumorah
Congratulations on 20k subs!
Thanks brother!!
You can get a copy of the 1830 Book of Mormon from Wayne May (he just republished it).
garbage
Great show guys ! Love you all !
This really is a good demonstration of the Deuteronomists...review of history and over zealousness to specific interpretations also manifested throughout various conflicts in the Book of Mormon as an echo of the conflicts brought about by our tendency to repeat the Deuteronomist phenomenon
I would love someone to answer my question. Let me start by saying I’ve always been embarrassed to ask it but it’s always always confused me how we hold reverence for Emma Smith. Now I’m not saying we need to be mean or anything but when ppl bring up the faithfulness or what a great women she is I never get it. Are we just referring to the time that she was married to Joseph bcuz everything I know (and I could be ill informed) she complained a lot, never had a straight story, and then left the church when Joseph died ? Can someone explain what or why the church members love about her or why they look to her as any sort of example for women in the church. Im open to comments but definitely would love an episode about what I’m missing or where I’m misinformed cuz I don’t believe it’s just me that isn’t getting it.
This is an awesome interview! Thanks!
When I was a child our history book told us of the Taino indians that lived in Puerto Rico before being colonized considered Spaniards "white gods" that could not die. So when the Tainos got tired of being slaves they decided to prove if Spaniards were truly gods. So they were traveling alone with Diego Salcedo and offered to carry him on their shoulders so he wouldn't get wet. In the middle of the river they drowned him and carried him to the river bank and waited til the third day to see if he would resurrect, he didn't and the Tainos began fighting the Spaniards. So in my twenty's when I heard Christ had visited America from the missionaries I knew it was true, why else would the Tainos wait 3 days for Diego to resurrect. I love when facts fall in place with my testimony, when not then I hold onto faith. 😊
Great job you guys, I can't wait to see who you have on next. Thanks
1:27:47 just finished reading all three saints volumes. sorry bro the sources in the saints books suck! They don’t use footnotes extensively, references sparingly AND they reference other church material as the source (meaning church magazines, talks etc) and not the ORIGINAL source. There are huge disclosures at the end of each book hedging itself that they attempted to have good references and some of it may be inaccurate but it’s not on purpose and it’s to the best of our knowledge and that they acknowledge using sources that are antagonistic to the church but “feel” those sources have been carefully vettedEtc… the disclosures actually gave me comfort knowing that I don’t have to accept Saints as an accurate history.
This was great . I understand how to keep encouraging my family.
Love this. My testimony of the restored gospel was based Joseph Smith first vision. I knew it was true after I heard. i had not even read the Book of Mormon yet. That came later slowly and while in the MTC I had a strong confirmation while praying about it.
I read the Testimony of Joseph Smith first (it was included in the beginning of certain editions of the Book of Mormon years ago). I, too, knew that he was telling the truth... So I had a testimony of the Prophet before my testimony of the Book of Mormon, but it was very shortly after, I knew the Book of Mormon was true. It was like the missing piece in understanding the gospel for me.
Great show! I love hearing Jonathan Neville, he sticks to the facts and makes so much sense. I do need, however, one point of clarity; 1:29:50 - He discusses “the messenger” ….as I read versus 59 & 60 of JS-H I feel like I am reading about one messenger (Moroni) in both verses not a separate messenger (one of the 3 nephites) whom he delivers the plates to in Harmony as the narrative is told. It makes sense to me that he turns in the plates to one of the three Nephites whom they later see on the road to Fayette, however, it doesn’t seem like that’s what Joseph Smith is describing in JS-H 59-60. Anybody like to describe this discrepancy?
Hi I am Brother Nephi - Love your channel
Has no one seen this comment yet 😂
I just subscribed to your channel. Love your content. I would totally come to a fireside if you ever do another one! Congrats on 1,000,000+ views!!!!
The stone in the hat makes more sense to me than the official interpreters. It was something common that would not make every scribe or witness a special witness of the sacred relic that the ancient stones were. I think Joseph Smith most likely used both. What about Martin Harris’s telling of switching the stone? Could not the dark stone have been referred to as a urim and thumim, or interpreter? Just because it was a dark stone does not make it evil inherently, speaking of not making conclusions and just talking about facts.
The interesting thing is that Emma said that the Interpreters were used prior to the plates being taken. Some individuals said that he put the Interpreters in the hat, both as spectacles and perhaps one of the individual stones. Thus, if Martin's story is true, it does verify that Joseph was using one of the Interpreter stones in the hat. Seems like he continued to do that for the entire Book of Mormon. Emma's statement is that he used the brown stone so that is a contradictory statement.
@@jerrygrover8992
Emma could have been telling the truth and Joseph could have also used the dark stone. Two things can be true. I can’t even tell when you are referring to the stones that came with the plates or the dark stone, or if all three could be called interpreters or urim and thumim when you are speaking, much less testimony from so long ago. We are going to find out the answers to these questions when we meet Joseph Smith ourselves. I am looking forward to it, but I’m going to wait a while I hope 😬
@@jerrygrover8992 do you remember that there was one of the 8 witnesses running with the mobs in Missouri making sure the saints all left. He was one of the Whitmer boys. When one of the persecuted saints called him out in front of the gang he said “ I saw the plates, but I don’t know if what they said was true, I couldn’t read them” or something like that. Imagine if that brainchild had to bear an additional burden of being a witness who the saw the interpreters which came with the plates. To me it would condemn him, or anyone else who became a special witness of the interpreters if they had more sacred knowledge then their faith could contain. I feel like using the dark, common stone was an act of mercy. Kind of like when Christ taught in parables.
@@Kaydubbbb I don't disagree, I was just saying that there a lot of possibilities. That particular one maybe arrives with a narrative with the least amount of contradictions. As far as meeting Joseph Smith in the afterlife, he will probably have to come visit me knowing the kingdom I am likely to be found in.
I like the possibility of discovering one of three Nephite names however, I was just reading in 4 Nephi 1:19 where it said Nephi died, and gave the records to his son Amos, would that not have been referring to the disciple Nephi the senior disciple which Christ chose when He appeared to the Nephites? I would think that if Nephi were one of the three Nephites it would not have mentioned him having died? Scanning through the names of the disciples Christ chose, there was only on named Nephi. They all, however, would likely refer to themselves as Nephites.
President Nelson said the Book of Mormon was done through the stone in the hat. There is a video. I have seen it.
This guy knows everything. I think he needs to spend a little more time with actual references and less hearsay. With the Joseph Smith papers, anyone can find things for themselves.
NO, he said it was a SUGGESTION. Unfortunately, the scholars have overly influenced the brethren. This false notion is promoted in the Gospel Topics Essays on the Translation and in Saints Vol 1 and in the Church Magazines. Joseph and Oliver were the most familiar with the translation and they always said it was done only with the Urim and Thummim!
@@brucelloyd7496can you explain how both David Whitmer and Emma Smith gave independent statements separated by many years and thousands of miles that match perfectly on the actual translation method?
I grew up right at the Harmony area ( see New Era, June 1987, "Downstream" ). So a lot of this feels personal.
I just looked this up, I book marked it
I love this guy! Great interview!
17:00 " I was promoting Messo American stuff because I didn't know any better an yet a lot of people had faith in that and that's find as long as it leads unto Christ"
When I was 12 years old, my father bought me a 60X telescope. I looked at the moon and could see the craters clearly. So, I pointed it towards a star, expecting to see a sun. However, it appeared as a bright star. Although I had zero knowledge of astronomy at the time, for some reason, I thought a star was not just a twinkling light. I played with the focus, and voilà, it became a flaming sun. What I had inadvertently done was invert the image from a star to a sun. I showed my friends, and they then believed that a star was not just a twinkling light but a distant sun. Even though that image was false, it still led to truth.
Ironic that Mr. Neville teaches no contention on BOM geography, than always makes condescending statements to the effect that "when I was stupid and ignorant I believed in the Mesoamerican model, but then I received knowledge and revelation and now support this model". He also make statements that Heartlanders are the only ones that really believe in Joseph Smith. I find it humorous because he is actually the one promoting contention with this holier than thou attitude and statements. One thing that is never mentioned is that these people are making money off of their ventures, kind of priest craft if you ask me.
At 1:31:50 they wonder if one of the translated Apostles in America, named Nephi, is watching their show, and that he should comment. Jonathan says that he should tell the names of the other two because they're dying to know. In 3 Neph 19:4 gives the names of all 12, with Nephi being first. For what it's worth, someone who claims to have met all three, and wishes to remain anonymous, said that their names are Nephi, Timothy, the brother of Nephi, and who Nephi raised from the dead; and Isaiah, who he said looked Native American.
Loved this episode! This rings so true to me. Makes so much sense. Don’t pay attention to the naysayers. Just because one has never been exposed to an idea like 2 sets of plates does not make it false or made up. It definitely has made great discussion!
Truth, we must seek truth and don't care what others think. A lover of truth never gets offended by the truth, they embrace it, only fools despise the truth and hate it for it cuts them to the center.
We must be linked Mormon when he said, "fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear."
We must seek to please the Lord in all things no matter what. The Savior Jesus Christ is our perfect example and never worried about what other people thought about him, nor did he seek to please them. Jesus Christ only saught to please his Father. Jesus taught the truth, spoke the truth, lived the truth and is the truth, so yah we need to Kerp that as our model to follow.
Remember what he said, " What manner of man ought ye to be?"
We should never be ashamed of the truth or be afraid what others may think or feel. We should only worry about how to please our Heavenly Father and God and bear witness of his Son Jesus Christ our Savior. We should seek for truth, testify of the truth, live the truth and stand for truth at all times in all things in all places even unto death.
Let us remember that "Light and truth forsake that evil one." 🙏🏽❤️
There are a few points that SITH-promoting scholars like to point out regarding the Urim and Thummim:
- There is no record of Joseph himself initially referring to the interpreters as “the Urim and Thummim” until years after finishing the Book of Mormon.
- The term, Urim and Thummim, is never mentioned once in the Book of Mormon.
- The term is biblical and was never referred to as something used for translating ancient texts.
- It is possible Joseph and Oliver adopted the term to describe the Nephite interpreters as such to sort of entice biblically minded individuals to the Book of Mormon.
- Some historians support the theory that Joseph disassembled the interpreters and the stones that were framed therein, were still used for the translation process.
I was a child sitting in my Baptist Sunday school when I was first taught that everyone is going to hell if they aren't Baptised. That began a search to find the truth, bc if that was true, then God isn't someone who loves all of his children and I couldn't follow Him. Somehow, many Christians don't think of that bc the word Dead, means the person doesn't exist anymore. They don't consider that they are still alive! After I joined the Church my mother's reaction was What? You baptize Dead People? Its just something she had never even thought about!
Exceptional content, well done all three of you’ 👏🏻
The Heartland model makes more sense than anything else
None of it happened. Where are all the bones? Where are all the battle sites and landmarks?
The thing I have with the Heartland model is if it's true, why are neither snow nor ice ever mentioned in the BOM? Those are very prominent weather problems that any civilization would have encountered.
@@Sirach144there are big burial mounds up around the Great Lakes but they aren’t allowed to excavate much due to laws around Native American sites.
@@casdraws
So? Why do we think everything they find in the America is a Book of Mormon find?
@@Sirach144 okay. It’s no skin of my nose if you disagree.
I’d been searching this recently and discovered 4 Nephi 1 : 19 in which Nephi dies. So it doesn’t look like he (Nephi the “chief” apostle) ( 1:26:12 ) could be one of the translated 3 Nephites.
When I first joined the church, I would take my scriptures to work and a work friend loved reading the Ensign. That was over 26 years ago, I wonder if Bibi ever joined the church.
I like Neville’s theory about the two sets, but it makes it hard to understand the function of the book of Words of Mormon in the location it is in. I would love to hear him talk about that.
This is an excellent point and I would like to hear his explanation for it.
Thinking out loud here, but one possible explanation to make that work is that the Words of Mormon where contained with the small plates and were meant to explain why those set of plates were also included.
I read through Words of Mormon again and verses 6 and 10 seem pertinent to this.
6. But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren.
...
10. Wherefore, it came to pass that after Amaleki had delivered up these plates into the hands of king Benjamin, he took them and put them with the other plates, which contained records which had been handed down by the kings, from generation to generation until the days of king Benjamin.
In both cases Mormon uses the phrase "put them with". So there is a possibility of Mormon putting the small plates in the same pile/stack but not bound together.
I'll say I'm open to it, but it's not a straight forward assumption.
I have thought of the different plates and the odds of them being in the same way the other plates were bound like they had a standard three hole punch they always used to mass produce plates for all the school kids to pick up at the beginning of the year.
So it makes sense the different sets were put “with” eachother like a school text book and the workbook for the class in a backpack.
ALSO, wasn’t there something about “the title page” being “the last leaf” of the plates? I would think that same treatment would happen for the small plates with Words of Mormon.
@@martinisaksen1 I went ahead and read it again, and I think you may be onto something. I think he might have added this to the small plates right before he wrote mormon 7 where he talks about the prophecies that are dealt with heavily in the small plates. They do seem to be obsessed with provenance with the rest of the plates so it would make since to add this built in at the end of the text before it gets put on the pile. Obviously Mormon knows how to make plates, so maybe he was adding explanations to all the plates as he went through them. That would answer the question, however I then start to wonder why the end of Words of Mormon spends time catching up history to the large plates in the last 5 verses or so. If it was separate, and the abridgment was still whole, why did Moroni feel the need to catch the history up?
@@dannyd7426 That makes perfect sense. Although I think Mormon could make new plates at the right size if he wanted to. He obviously knows how to make them. Here's a weird thing I thought about the other day. For those people who think that Joseph made the entire thing up, why don't they give him credit for creating the D ring binder?????
@@kellerclements8059😂
Faith is knowing without seeing. I enjoy rationality but I do not try at all costs to find a rational explanation to my faith. The risk is that if we don't find any, our faith is weakened because it has been trained to partly lean upon rational evidence (things that are seen). I saw many members leaving the church because of too many intellectual issues. On the contrary, I see strong members abounding in faith with fewer of these intellectual luggage. When I engage in discussions, the best answer I find when it applies is that God commanded so without trying to find deep explanations or making assumptions when there aren't any that are rational.
At 39:30 he testifies of something incredibly special candidly and honestly. Did he just say that the Lord revealed Himself to Jonathan? I think he did.
Did y’all see the article today from Panama? They found a tomb from 750AD-ish that had two gold plates buried in it.
But i think they were of the food bearing variety, unfortunately
I loved the Nick Rimando reference!! He is just awesome off the porch as he is on it⚽️ This podcast is so good🙌🏼
I hear LDS church members use the words logic and rational more than in any other cult.
A belief system has to be logical.
At 51:24 your guest said, "It (the Book of Mormon) says they have to be baptized." referring to people who have never heard of Jesus. I'm interested in the chapter and verse he is referencing when he says that, for Jacob, the brother of Nephi in his sermon to his people clearly states that the atonement of Christ extends the mercies of the Holy One unto all those without the law:
... the Lord God ... has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them because of the atonement, for they are delivered by the power of him.
For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell ... which is Endless torement. And they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel.
I'm not trying to persuade you of anything, but simply pointing out a fact. You may choose to edit the video or make a comment about this below but to me, it seems as if your guest does not understand the power of the atonement. And your comment about the little 6-year-old girl in India who you wondered if she would end up in hell because she would never hear of Jesus Christ; your point, which was vague, was that you thought that baptism for the dead would save her... well that makes me wonder if you understand the atonement of Christ.
I think when he said "It says they have to be baptized..." He is referring to the scriptures that clearly state baptism is essential, which is in the Bible, or the gospel in general. And the Bible does clearly state that we must be baptized. We know that once someone has died, they can still hear the gospel on the other side, hence their no longer neutral, they are then to accept the gospel, ie. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repent, baptism and receive the Holy Ghost (which is also perfect vicariously in the temples). Faith and repentance are something they can do on the other side, or in death.
And the host that stayed he couldn't believe that a little girl in India would go to hell, was rejecting the belief that many other Christian churches have. It was literally that exact preaching that made me leave the Baptist faith. I knew God had a better way, and would not do that. I knew God enough to know he was much more merciful than that. From 17 to 19 years old I searched for truth mostly with more independent Bible study and learning about other faiths (albeit more diligently at times than others). It was only when after reading and praying , I felt prompted to find a church to attend. I figured if I had to, I would just visit churches of all kinds - wherever I felt led by God to go. I remembered that in the Bible, it said His church would be called by His name, so I pondered, and had previously heard of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints decided to go the following day with a family member who had joined a few years prior. Soon I began Book of Mormon, and knew it was true that first night reading it!
Not sure why I shared all of that, but line up on line I was brought into truth... And still am learning at 45! I feel so blessed to have so much truth!
FYI
I looked up the two accounts of messengers 1) about the Nephite on the road to Fayette that was headed to Cumorah and 2) Mary Whitmer being shown the plates
1) Soon they were on their way to Fayette, some one hundred miles away. On this occasion Moroni took the plates to avoid danger while transporting them. Another unusual event occurred en route. It happened while they were riding along in the wagon. David Whitmer described the event:
“A very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with, ‘good morning, it is very warm,’ at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and, by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, ‘No, I am going to Cumorah.’ This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked around enquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared. …
“… It was the messenger who had the plates, who had taken them from Joseph just prior to our starting from Harmony.” “Report of Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith,” p. 772.
***It says Moroni was the one who took the plates.
2) Much of the extra work of having these guests fell on Mary Whitmer, but she never complained. One day, as she went to the barn to milk the cows, she met a kindly old man, who was actually the angel Moroni, who had the plates at that time. Moroni said to her, “You have been very faithful and diligent in your labors, but you are tired because of the increase of your toil; it is proper therefore that you should receive a witness that your faith may be strengthened.” Then he showed her the gold plates. This experience strengthened the whole Whitmer family. (See “Report of Elders Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith,” Millennial Star, 9 Dec. 1878, pp. 772-73; see also Church History in the Fulness of Times [Church Educational System manual (32502), 1993], pp. 57-58.)
***This also says it was Moroni.
I could not find an account of any of the three Nephites in either of these two stories. However, there was this story that made reference to three strangers...
Before he [David Whitmer] could take his wagon to pick up Joseph and Oliver, however, David had to prepare his fields for the spring planting. When he went out to start plowing the soil in the morning, David discovered that someone had plowed part of the fields already. This person had done a very good job and left the plow in a furrow, ready for the work to continue. At the end of a day of plowing, David found he had accomplished in one day what normally would have taken two days to do. David’s father, Peter Whitmer Sr., was impressed with this miracle and said, “There must be an overruling hand in this, and I think you would better go down to Pennsylvania as soon as your plaster of paris is sown” (quoted in Lucy Mack Smith, History of Joseph Smith, p. 148). Farmers in that area added plaster of paris to the soil to make it less acidic. The next day David went to the place he had left the plaster, near his sister’s house, but the plaster was gone. His sister told him that the day before, she and her children had seen three strangers spreading the plaster with great speed and skill. She had assumed they were men David had hired, but David knew they were helpers provided by the Lord. (the Three Nephites?)
***I'm confused. I would just like to know the sources Jonathan was using. And why would they be so different? I did not get this from "The Saints" book, but the Church's website. I'm not saying he is wrong, but where do I get the correct story/account? If the Church's website cannot get the stories correct, then how are we suppose to know what is right? I don't have the time to completely delve into every sources available. I thought I would receive the correct information on the Church's website! This is troubling to me.
Jonathan Neville said that Andrew Jenson heard Mary’s story, but corrected her - she said he introduced himself as Nephi (as in 3 Nephi), but Andrew thought it must have been Moroni.
@@bethanytredway6111 But where do I find the original account that Mary says he introduced himself as Nephi or Bro. Nephi before Jenson "corrected" her statement?
How can we tell which Mormon church is the right one?? Well... ask yourself which one is taking their gospel faith to the four corners of the earth?? 😉😇
Great interview guys! Just a question of clarification: The idea that there were TWO sets of plates, and that Joseph only got Mormon's plates (with plates of lehi included) from Cumorah in sept 1827, and got the small plates of Nephi later (delivered to him in Fayette)... that is a fascinating idea. Makes sense.. So, how do we reconcile Mormon himself saying - "I shall take these plates (small plates of Nephi), which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and PUT THEM WITH the remainder of my record" Words of Mormon 1:6. Seems pretty clear there they were put together. Just wondering yours (and Jonathan's) thoughts on that. Thanks!
Found my answer in a nother interview with Jonathan Neville. So good - ruclips.net/video/N8WZoZ_oddA/видео.html
The deeper yall get in to this the deeper my understanding of Astal projection and or remote viewing is reinforced.
Context always matters… if you compare the things Emma said side by side when Joseph was living, against the things she said married to her second husband, they do not match
When Joseph was alive he was the head of the church, after his death Brigham Young was the head … she was a deeply hurt woman, her life with her second husband was not happy
People who are hurt and not happy say things they would never say otherwise
I personally hold the words of Emma before the death of Joseph in higher standing, than the words she says while married to her second husband
Context matters…
Why waste time trying to explain to those who refute a book they've never read. I've read the book many, many times. No man could write such a book. Read 2 Nephi 9, carefully. There are many other chapters like it, so complex, so powerful. As i said, what value is it to go on and on talking about other people's opinions about a book they've never read. Stop already
I came across a video discussing the Essene community at Kumran. In this video they show that their community has 3 sections like the 3 temple sections discussed in your other videos.Enjoy😊
Words of Mormon 1:6 "But behold, I shall take these plates, which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren." One set of plates...
Really love your channel. (All 3 of us do, as well as Moses, John, and all the others.) I'm here visiting my friend here in Independence, Missouri and thought I'd leave this message on his account since I don't have a RUclips or Google account. Brother Nephi
Not, really, I cannot tell a lie, or, I guess I should say, I can, but not for long, and only in fun. But I can imagine that if Brother Nephi or any of the others were to view your channel, they would want you to know that they love it. At least I do. Sorry that I'm not as famous as one of the 3 Nephites, but I'm all I've got and I do the best I can, most of the time... or some of the time.
Great video. Audio seems to be slightly reverberating often though
There is no evidence that the "spectacles" were given to the brother of Jared, it only indicates two stones. The evidence is that the metal spectacles had to have been constructed by the Nephites after finding the stones and the plates of the brother of Jared.
True but they needed to get the idea from somewhere
Two Testaments? Hmmm. Didn't that already happen in the Bible? Wasn't the whole point of the Bible to testify to the House of Judah the significance of Christ's role in their history?
One of my favorite moments of insights of Christ through His own words: "O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them?"
What was that website? Mormoner?
If you believe the stone theory you have to 100% believe that Joseph Smith didn't know what he said, that he's stupid in saying that he used the Urim and Thummim. Every single incident he says he used the Urim and Thummim and NEVER a stone. Do you believe Joseph? In a court of law the stone theory would be thrown out as hearsay.
Is there a website for the book of mormon forum?
Great show. I love Jonathon Neville's insights. He's done the work to find as many original sources as possible for his ideas. I think sometimes we have preconceived notions and close our minds to truth.
Awesome podcast guys! What was the name of the website at 1:12:57?
I couldn't make it out either and it sounds like this will save me a bunch of work myself 😄
No one said that the Church is perfect. But it has the organization, ordinances & teachings that, if utilized righteously can exalt individuals and families. Do you think that the Community of Christ leaders hold the Melchizedek Priesthood? They have a female Prophet. How do you feel about that?
The Book of Mormon is ultimately supposed to lead people to the Church, but true that it's never supposed to be about merely and shallowly bolstering membership numbers.
22:30
where can we find this book "the two testaments" ?
41:23-:30 the new Book of Mormon intro. also grates me every time, and am left wondering how long I will have to hold onto my present set of scriptures. just one more example of a connection for why I enjoy brother Neville's point view. For me it's erasing the phrase "as does the Bible".
Oliver Huntington states on page 43 of his journal that Joseph Smith told him that the Three Nephites were Kumenonhi, Jeremiah and Zedekiah. Me posting this is not to make anyone believe it. I am merely reporting what has been stated elsewhere.
Hello Gentlemen,
Friends call me Jack Mormon. Yes, I live contrary to church standards.The gospel is simple to understand and adhere to for answers to prayers. Joseph Smith Is the Lord's chosen prophet who translated the Book of Mormon. End of story. With all due respect your discussion is a waste of your time because why do you feel that you need to convince those people with shallow testimonies who need constant reassurance. My experience is they are too lazy to earn their testimony. Heavenly Father listens to my daily petitions in the name of His son the Lord Jesus Christ and responds always in a timely fashion, oftentimes miraculously. When your prayers are being answered- count your many blessings and represent the Lord respectfully in your life.
1 John 5:15, “And if we know that he hears us - whatever we ask - we know that we have what we asked of him.”
Need like 10 hours of this please :) haha. Can listen to him and Dave butler, don bradley and Mike day tslk all day.
I’m in OKC. I gotta see that baptist church!
Let us please remember that for faith to be good, it must be faith in a true thing. Truth is things as they ARE, as they WERE and as they ARE TO COME. This means they don't change with a wave of "facts". Thus the need to have, not only a called, living, prophet, but a prophet who will do as section 18 of the Doctrine and Covenants and "[He] shall testify they [these words] are of me and not of man;" When we begin again to have answers to these questions that come in the way that the God commanded they come, then we will have truth, and only then. Till then, we are left to worship the Gods of science! And I, personally, will have none of that, because it is a mass of confusion.
I realised that Christianity is based on the belief that the new testament is additional scripture to what the Jews have...but try and tell them we have additional scripture in our day and you're certifiable ...great argument to make though...
"The Saints Book?" Never heard of it...but interested...what's the proper title? Perhaps it's best to address references or post them in their whole title form somewhere for those just catching this along the way?
The title is... Saints
@@netherquartz8946 did a search on that and I found a book called "Saints" on Catholic Saints...I don't think that's the one - anyone got a link so I don't get the wrong book?
@@johnm8284 In case link doesn't stay just search Saints history of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints.
Saints: The Standard of Truth Vol 1
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:v8
that was interesting interview. thanks for hosting it. It reminded me of the time I had a conversation with a friend that believed in the hollow earth theory. He was so passionate about it, just like this guy seems to be. I can see why so many people like to listen to his story telling. But it definitely felt like story telling sprinkled with some facts. Not a fan of the few times he had to throw some shade on actual historians in order to keep his narrative afloat. But overall, good interview.
He’s not throwing shade. He’s joking about the fact that some meso theory believers get legitimately contentious toward him and others who see the Heartland model as more accurate. I like the light hearted joking about disagreement better than attacks.
You must not have listened to it all. Or maybe read his book because he def is a historian
I’m curious what your definition of an “actual historian” is?
why is that the part of my opinion that you are curious about?
I did listen to the complete program, but have not read any of Rod's books. If he is a credentialed church historian I stand corrected. But there were too many dismals of other historians in the discussion for my comfort. no harm no foul, just interesting.
Hey Jackson, Barbie here...
So I'm listening here, and Jackson asks "why would the Lord go to all that trouble to give Moriancumur the urim and thummum and saying the language was confounded... So it makes me ask, Did Moroni use the Urim and Thummum when he abridged Ether's record? (I know we don't know because he didn't say. )
Moroni would have used King Mosiah's translation. See Mosiah 8:13 and Mosiah 28:11- 16. Apparently, Mosiah had the "stones in the rim of a bow" similar to the ones Moroni gave to Joseph Smith. King Mosiah used those stones to translate Ether's record. Moroni simply abridged Mosiah's translation.
@@jeffah3103 The U&T given to the brother of Jared was handed down through the Jaredite generations to Coriantumr and eventually to Joseph Smith. He lived with the Mulekites for 9 moons and carved his history on a large stone. When he died the U&T and the carved stone fell into Mulekite hands. After Mosiah the First became king of the people of Nephi and the Mulekites, the large stone and the U&T was taken to Mosiah who translated the stone. This U&T was handed down through Nephite generations to Mormon, Moroni and Joseph Smith. Moroni didn't have Mosiah the 2nd translation of the 24 plates (only a partial because some things couldn't be revealed until after the resurrection) 500 years later so he went to the source, the 24 Jaredite plates. I wouldn't be surprised of Mormon used the Urim and Thummim to create the abridged record because the language evolved over 1,000 years.
@brucelloyd7496 Just curious. Why would wicked Coriantumr have the Urim and Thummin that belonged to the Brother of Jared? If any part of your theory is true, Ether, the last Jaredite prophet, would have had the U&T stones and hidden them with the 24 gold plates as found by the people of Limhi. Do you really think the Lord would entrust Seer stones that gave prophets the ability to see the entirety of God's creations to a wicked man like Cotiantumr? Really? Please go back and read.
And remember Moroni abridges the record of Ether. He very easily could have used several source materials, including Mosiah's translation. Do you really think that Nephite language changed that much between King Mosiah (abt 100 BC) and Moroni (400 AD)? Really? That's why the Nephites had written records to keep the language from changing too much. Moroni was not ignorant of Mosiah language, just as English speakers of today aren't ignorant of Shakespeare (500 years difference). No one I know needs an U&T type instrument to read Shakespeare. Do you?
I'm going to binge-watch the book of Mormon videos .
Jackson your comment at the about the 3 Nephites had me laughing. 😂 So funny. In all seriousness though I bet they are subscribers and watch your podcast. If you were them wouldn’t you watch something that you were personally involved with? That you had spent years of your life teaching and in their case hundreds of years.
The understanding revealed to me is that Joseph remote viewed the plates.
I’m eating good today!
Keep on feasting!!
wait, I wanna go to the meetings! I didn't know there were meetings!
To be honest though Maya would have been the lamanites, not the nephites, hence christianity would not have been needed to be found among the mayan.
Gaining a testimony of the Book of Mormon generally leads to a greater testimony of Jesus Christ but also of Joseph Smith as a prophet which leads them to the church and to making covenants. They are usually connected. One usually leads to the other.
As a longtime member of the church, I am not particularly interested what his manner of translation was. Both methods, the arm and thumb as well as the Seer Stone could have been used and still come up with a reliable translation. You should have at least some understanding of how either of them work and considering they work through the same primary method, provided you understand such things in the first place, that is not a problem I have.
The problem that I have is the stories of Joseph Smith having been a polygamist which none of them occur until after his death. There is a plethora of personal journals and times over and over again for Joseph Smith was preaching against the practice of polygamy and had only come up with the idea of Eternal Marriage. Supported by the fact that we can look at some of the writings of Joseph Smith and show where some of them are fraudulent and some of them have been added to in order to support this clearly wrong concept of plural marriage which is said to be forbidden in the Book of Mormon just like the practice that they took up of not allowing blacks to enter the temples and eventually restricting the priesthood to them in direct violation of Book of Mormon scripture and that act alone was never declared to be revelatory. There is a lot to unwrap in the lies that were told to rid the Church of Joseph Smith even the changing of the name and Brigham Young doing things that only the prophet is allowed to do while Joseph Smith was still alive. The church has to get this period of time straight and face it if they are ever to move forward.
It's good that this man is on because for a while when I was younger I thought that mesoamerica might have been a place for the Book of Mormon. However Joseph Smith never ever broach the subject. Every single descriptor he gave indicated this country. He never even said they landed in South America like I was hearing for a while and that never made any sense to me why in the world would you travel across the Pacific Ocean when traveling across the Atlantic Ocean which is what they did, would have been a much smaller pittance of time.
The Illustrated Stories From Church History book series for children, shows the “no I am going to Cumorah” account Oliver describes in volume 2 page 25… page 23 even has the account of angels plowing the fields of the Whitmer farm miraculously, so that David could even go and pick Joseph and Oliver up!
There was a long period of time when the truth was taught, this book series was published in Provo Utah in 1973
Now scholars are hijacking church history in church magazines and in Saints Vol 1 and in the Gospel Topics Essays on the translation! Sad, very sad.
The church currently does not take an official stance on where the Book of Mormon occurred. That said, Joseph Smith was very, very, very unambiguous.
The Lord likely doesn’t want to hurt feelings by stating the obvious on BofM location. Anyone who is unaware of the two main suspected geography models and given the pro’s/con’s of each side would likely choose heartland. It is so much more logical. (Prior Meso theory believer).
My dad was a fan of the Book of Mormon but he never thought it was literal history. He felt like the story was metaphorical like the OT stories like Noah and the ark or Jonah and the whale. Therefore, the argument of heartland vs meso America was unnecessary. I know that’s a minority opinion.
Good video
Ill send you guys like invisible cloak for a shout out in the next video. Specifically for my baby boy about to be born on the 22nd....think on it fellas.
Just started listening here. Awesome insight. Check out these guys, Brothaz in the foyer
When an organization has the keys then they know what to do with a temple. D&C 128