One of my favorite moments in Spider Man 3 is when Peter says “You’ll get your rent when you fix this damn door!”, and Mr. Ditkovitch says “He is a good boy, he must be in some kind of trouble.” In a way that shows he genuinely cares about Peter, even under all that greedy exterior. And yes! I was right about the segment covering 9/11 before it came out! Lindsay Ellis’s video about 9/11 in media came in clutch!
Good point! Almost every character in his Spider-Man movies has some redeeming trait or underlying decency - even Norman Osborne, Otto Ocatvius and Flint Marko. Or Jonah Jameson refusing to give up info about Spider-Man to the Goblin. People can be bad, do bad things, but they are rarely 1-dimensional. Except the bullies funnily enough. Flash Thompson and Eddie Brock.
@@MariaVosa but even Flash Thompson shows up at Harry’s funeral in SM3, showing there’s human decency and respect in spite of his previous history with both Peter and Harry. Eddie is the only one who’s an irredeemable asshat.
@@Chenso2099 You are right about Flash, I had forgotten that part. I'm sure Eddie is the only completely irredeemaböe character because the studio forced Raimi to include him ;)
A thing that always gets me about the bridge scene is that without the help, Spidey actually fails. He can't put the trolley of kids down or fight back against the goblin. He's stuck and he doesn't have a plan. Instead of him digging deep and using his own strength and skill, e get something rarer, and more meaningful: a collective victory. The tugboat workers and people on the bridge couldn't do it without Spidey, but he couldn't do it without them either. anyway. Volunteer in your community. It's always worth it
Sam Raimi really was the perfect guy to bring Spidey to the big screen for the first time. He came from humble beginnings, was an outsider within the Hollywood system for many years, and is completely sincere and honest in his goal to entertain his audience... He is the Peter Parker of movie directors.
Not taking anything from Raimi but wasn't he... accomodated, let's say? I thought his parents, even if not straight out millionaires, were relatevely wealthy.
Kind of wild that we moved on from Channel Awesome-style video essays with character skits and increasingly complex lore only to circle back to it but with good writing and production talent.
I feel the need to share the fact that the Nostalgia Critic specifically listed the side characters and extras as among the things he hated most in the Rami movies in a video almost 10 years ago, and I'm just so glad I've found new RUclips channels that comedically analyze media since then. This was cathartic.
@@HMNCLunarI remember when he shared Cosmonaut's video about Raimi's trilogy saying "See? See guys I was right!!" While ignoring that his review of the Andrew Garfield movies was way harsher
Did he? I specifically remembered him saying in his review of Spider-Man 2 that to side characters were his favorite, especially Ursula and Mr Ditkovich.
This has regularly been my main problem with the MCU films, great as the often are in many ways. The motivations for the superhero protagonists have increasingly been each other rather than the people and communities around them. This was especially egregious in Infinity War and Endgame, where they were explitly written as primarily trying to save each other - with the rest of the world being mostly an implicit concern. If they could connect more with 'ordinary' people, it would honestly help so much with engagement and emotional investment.
And this is why I loved No Way Home, not because of it's reasonable nostalgia (that's my opinion, stfu) but the way they softly remade MCU Spider-Man by pushing him back to his roots at the last minutes of the film.
@@somecallmejeremy That makes sense - and I wouldn't blame you for having a chunk of nostalgia at seeing all those faces from the past again, as I have some fairly potent early to mid 00s memories associated with those films!
@@wyndgrove9452 Good to know. The reason why I said the nostalgia's reasonable is because why it's also to pump up the box office, it also had a purpose of teaching Tom's Spider-Man to become the Spider-Man that we all know, hence becoming that character in the end, and I think it works.
Raimi's Spiderman had a lot of scenes filmed on location in New York, whereas the MCU Spiderman movies (and Raimi's Multiverse of Madness) were filmed behind green screens in Atlanta, which contributes to that "empty" feeling.
People mocked George Lucas for using green screen all the time for the prequels. Then Hollywood realized "Holy shit......THIS WILL SAVE US MONEY!" and now his approach is becoming the default.
@@galactic85 saving money is nice and all but the director not having to move his arse out of his seat is pretty great too. Now the coffee doesn't get spilled that easily anymore.
To be fair, Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy didn't have a worldwide pandemic to deal with. I remember watching Raimi's audio commentary for Multiverse of Madness, and he kept talking about things he wanted to do that were impossible due to COVID restrictions at the time. But I can see what you're talking about.
The "you mess with one of us you mess with *all* of us" scene makes me tear up, even now as an adult, and even out of context from the rest of the film. As does the scene on the train from the second film. Part of that is due to having seen them as a kid, and having an emotional memory of them, but part of it is down to how sincere they were. Those moments really stuck with me because they didn't have a snarky, self aware, "well that happened" type of attitude.
I love the MCU Spider-Man movies but always felt like the Raimi trilogy just had a more "homey" and comforting feel. I just chalked it up to my nostalgia vision but now that you brought it up this could be a big reason why
Great video! The class struggle and the usage of "little people" really flew over my head when I originally watched these movies. Which is surprising, because as you pointed out, it really is the heart of the franchise.
I agree that the scenes with the landlord's daughter isn't a romantic subplot per se, but I always assumed she had a crush on him and she gave him the cake as an excuse to hang out with him.
I will never get enough of Raimi's Spider-Man ... And also, I always feel that place/environment in Spiderman Marvel Trilogy felt not real at all. At first I always thought thats due to the place itself is not real, but CGI generated,but after watching this video you definitely answer of why I feel like that. Raimi intricately build new york and it people as the main character beside peter and his villain...
Absolutely agree! The people of NYC feeling like real people with real lives in the Raimi films gives what happens to Spider-Man a real sense of stakes and purpose. The MCU films have such fantastical stakes, but those stakes never feel real because we never see the consequences of the villains or heroes actions contextualized in a grounded or meaningful way. I also think Raimi's cinematography, choreography, blocking, etc just look SOOOOO much better than the MCU stuff. Raimi's films look incredible and the action is so well filmed. They're just a cut above most of the MCU's photography.
I would say Netflix's Daredevil is really good at showing everyday people as well. Like that prison guard in the pilot, Brett Mahoney, Father Paul Lantom, Claire Temple, Ray Nadeem, and many one-off characters. That show is very good at making you feel like you are on the streets with them.
I think you are correct but most of those characters qualify more as supporting characters rather than the kind of background characters patrick is talking about. Claire and ray especially play crucial roles on the plots of seaspns 1 and season 3. Season 3 is arguably just as much rats story as it is matt's story. I would say a better example is Mrs. Cardenas in season one, or the nurse that ben hrich interacts with in season 1 as he tries to care for his wife, or Blake tower from seasons 2 and 3.
YES! THANK YOU! THESE SIDE CHARACTERS ARE GREAT! I remember watching a certain critic as a child and hearing him complain about all the "pointless side characters" and thinking "yeah those guys are pointless." Now that im older I'm like "hey wait a minute...all those characters are great and the fact that I remember ALL OF THEM is pretty incredible." Raimi cast actors who took characters that easily could have been one note and elevated them into ones that felt a little more real. That should be PRAISED. I would rather have a superhero movie where every small character is memorable than a movie where civilians who aren't directly connected to the protagonist are basically nonexistent or are treated as cannon foder for the main villain.
Honestly, I think the popularity of the MCU is more fragile than it might seem right now, and I think the lack of care and attention given to regular people is a big part of why. The entire time I was watching No Way Home, I couldn't get past how empty and depopulated the movie felt, and in general, it's part of the larger, increasingly obvious problem of the MCU not being about anything real, not even anything as simple as the value of using one's talents to help other people.
I think the reason why is because Disney has a near monopoly on blockbuster IP. The one major competitor, DCEU has been horribly mishandled and is now in the hands of a company that seems like it has no idea what its doing.
@@somecallmejeremy Civil War seemed like the beginning of the end to me, tbh. The main conflict started with the Avengers seeing how they impact everyday people, then slowly devolved into interpersonal drama.
@@adora_was_taken Civil War's a great movie though. I'd love to hear your opinion on it, especially the final battle when Tony discovered Bucky killed his parents and Steve kept that secret for years.
I'm in my mid-thirties, grew up watching the movies, have seen Spiderman 2 numerous times, and yet every time I watch the mask-off part of the train scene I have to turn away from my wife so she can't see I'm like two steps from being a blubbery mess. The scene hits me every time.
100% agreed. Raimi's Spider-Man films feel so timeless and universal that it manages to easily strike all of the right chords and tug at all the right heart strings. It's the same feeling I get watching Lord of the Rings that I didn't get from the Hobbit (and certainly not Rings of Power).
Same. I remember even at the time it got me...I was thinking when the mask came off 'Oh! So, they know who he is now?! That can't be good!' Then what happens? The people just gently catch him when he nearly falls and carry him safely into the train and actually look after him and compare him to their own families...really affecting and for me at the time totally unexpected...in a good way.
SO many fantastic comedians in these movies, a wise decision to include them, as it adds so much texture to the films. Folks that didn't get a mention in this video: Donnell Rawlings, Aasif Mandvi & Joey Diaz.
Spider-Man has always been the most relatable superhero. None of know what it's like to be billionaires like Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark. But most of us know what it's like to work terrible service jobs, be broke, and struggle with rent.
Hold on, I had to go back and re-watch that moment where Dave is reacting to Patrick's upload. The way that the diegetic notification "ding" sound merged with the optimistic, curious musical score made my jaw drop when I noticed. If that's Brian Metolius' doing, he's a genius. Also, this made me want a jelly donut.
One of the problems the MCU has created for paying attention to members of the public is, they've trained audiences to search for easter eggs. Just about any person given a speaking line or extra camera time is going to be speculated to be some reference to the comics or a set-up for the next big reveal. Because of this, it becomes difficult to feature people in the MCU films that aren't for fanservice.
Honestly I have issues with the watts trilogy but that sequence where he is just interacting with random people on the street is not one of them. Very well done sequence.
Raimi gets that an important factor of superhero comics is seeing the random passer-by’s perspective. I love all the cutaways in Spider-Man 1-3 to random citizens, to the point they have the best most iconic moments. Lucy Lawless saying “A guy with eight hands?…sounds hot” is burnt into my brain lol.
I rewatched the Spider-Man movies a week ago incidentally. I really enjoyed them after not seeing them since I was kid. I also noticed how it feels like a much more lived in than the MCU movies. Also even the little Easter eggs like Dr. Conners feel a lot less shoe horned in.
Totally! I feel like dr Connors works better because raimi wasn't necessarily laying threads for future films. With the mcu the cameos nowadays all of them are basically ads for other movies or shows you have to watch or their presence could be cut from the story without changing much of anything. With characters like dr Connors it's just the film makers going "hey...here is an established spider-man character from the source material. Would he be off good use for this specific story or scene? Maybe we can turn him into the lizard someday but theres no guarantee we'll be able to do that. Lets just out him in and see what happens down the line! He works fine enoigh on his own." Nowadays if raimi was making a movie like Spider-man 2 the school doctor that Peter goes to visit in the second act would have to be doctor Strange or something.
I just want to say that the watching guides are an amazing idea. I had already seen all four suggested Spiderman movies, but they got me to watch 25th Hour for the first time last weekend. Not only did they introduce me to a fantastic movie (seriously though, that last 10 minutes made me cry), but they also deepened my appreciation and understanding of this video.
Which sucks because the whole reason i think a lot of people connect with these characters is that they are regular people that experience day to day struggles exaggerated in an operatic fashion. As Grant Morrison put it, Superman walks his dog too...he just happens to do it on the moon.
Raimi and his buddies, the Coens are both masters of fleshing out their worlds via a bunch of colorful scene stealing extras. And the Spidey trilogy is one of the best examples on Raimi’s end. Really the definition of “there are no small parts.”. It’s a huge reason why they’re my favorite filmmakers tbh.
It is not at all a new observation that the Avengers have basically become Team America. Their detatched lives where they never interact with anyone not also a superhero, a love interest or an employee while they appoint themselves judge, jury and executioner of the entire earth would be such a great parody if it were made with anything other than corporate cynicism.
OSP recently did a pair of podcasts about Superman. One focused on media that satirizes him and the other focuses on Superman preventing any collateral damage. They talked about how modern superhero movies "graduate" from saving ordinary citizens to stopping a big-bad.
The citizens of NYC are as integral to a good Spider-Man story as ol' webhead himself. The JMS run on the comic from the early 2000's does an amazing (yes pun) job of that. One thing i feel the Garfield and Holland films lacked was some more inclusion of the everyday New Yorkers that populate spidey's hometown. The Raimi films deffo have that in spades, even if it's subtle things like the pedestrians who provide background gags
I don't feel like the Garfield films do quit as good a job as the raimi films. But I think by and large the two ask films handle civilians better than the Holland ones. At least in asm 2 we get stuff like him interacting with the little kid.
Yes, yes, yes, yes on all points. And you made me realize that this approach is also a big reason the Richard Donner Superman still remains so charming if technically less sophisticated (Just re-watch the helicopter rescue scene and all the pieces you outlined are in place). Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure Raimi handles his background characters similarly in "Darkman".
Last couple of times I watched Spider-man 2 that train scene's ending had me near to tears. It's just perfect. Proper good feels moment. Don't think anything has come close to that since in any superhero film.
Glad I found your comment, I wanted to say the same thing. The bridge sequence is great for the way he stops the train, but what really elevates it is what comes after.
The train sequence is the best action sequence in super hero movies. Everything there is perfect: the stakes getting bigger, as Spidey try to fight Doc Ock, help civilians in the middle of the caos, and stop the train. The end with everyone helping him is the perfect way to end.
One of my major criticisms of the modern superhero films, the MCU in particular, is that I don't feel any connection between the normal, common person and the superhero. You very rarely see the reactions of random people. This is something that creates problems. For example... Why is Ms Marvel a fan of Captain Marvel? Obviously, the answer is because she is one in the comics, but in the MCU it makes absolutely no sense. Regardless of what you think of Captain Marvel as both a character and as a film, she has never interacted with normal people or even been seen by them - I don't think. She is always on another planet, and when she is on Earth, she is in a place where no members of the public are (and for just a short time). It makes sense for there to be young kids in the Spider-Man films to love Spider-Man, but it makes no sense for a young kid to love Captain Marvel in the MCU.
Star Wars (at least the original trilogy) has a similar secret ingredient. From the denizens of the cantina to the other pilots making the run on the death star, the galaxy feels like there is more happening off screen. I contrast this with Star Trek where the only people that matter are the members of the main cast.
I recently rewatched the FIRST season of the next generation, and it felt shockingly different, like a much bigger world. Really too bad the rest of the series didn't have that perspective
Wait, is the guy who says "He stinks and I don't like him" and the guy yelling "You mess with one of us you mess with all of us" the same guy? Holy shit! That is a very solid mini character arc that guy got.
It's interesting to me that Sam Raimi is both a friend of, and sometime collaborator with, the Coen Brothers. They also spend a lot of time making the ordinary, background folks in their films feel like they have full lives and personalities outside of the narrative. Virtually every one of their films has a standout moment from a minor character who's only in one scene.
Yeah, but if you have amazing bit characters, that takes time away from the repetitive references and obsession with connecting everything that the MCU has.
I think you really explained to me why I could never get into the MCU when it started out. Raimi's Spiderman movies were relatable because their foundation was built on ordinary people. The MCU did away with that almost entirely and the result just feels hollow in comparison.
Mmmm, now that you mention it, maybe that's why my favorite movie in the MCU (tier one, at least) is the first half of Captain America. Even if it's military and such, Steve is just a regular guy trying to do "a" right thing for other regular people even if they wash away the crude of the situation (which is fine by me, it's not that kind of movie). Even the military and scientist are pretty ordinary in suits and coats so that when Steve is recuing the to be howling commandos it still feels like him saving people. Following on this thought, most of his struggle is relatable and, when it comes to getting his powers, at least he achievesthrough his actual, "regular", superpower: his heart. Another scientist gives him the serum but it's his personality (and incredible luck) what gets him there. It still plays with the theme and it's more in line with the Stan Lee approach of "people with powers of gods"
@@jabarak1 And I will let people like those for their own reasons, and I did enjoy Guardians 1 when it came out, but the rest of the MCU that I saw was such a let down that I couldn't care to revisit them.
@@jabarak1 As much as Tony Stark is a rich dude and super-intelligent, he's foremost an engineer who's happiest with grease on his hands and something constructive to do. The vices are just a distraction; what do we see him doing when he has spare time? Tinkering with his car in his garage with his radio blasting.
@@ChallengeIdeas Which is an aspect I wish they would be back. So many times he has a new gadget that was built off screen or before the movie started.
Without fail, Sam Raimi's Spider-man movies make me emotional. They were my favourite superhero movies as a kid and they have continued to be some of my favs. They captured a lot of the hope and some of the essence of why I like the genre. Which is why I feel some fatigue beginning with the MCU. But it still has its moments. For example, in the final episode of Falcon and Winter Soldier when Sam puts on the new suit and actually begins to save people.
I expected there to be a comparison to Watchmen, since that is a comic about superheroes where at the end (SPOILER ALERT) a huge chunk of New York is destroyed by the villain and the author invested much energy in making the non-supers have a life of their own and right before the attack they gathered together to stop a street brawl, to show the spirit of New York. And how the film adaptation largely ignored that aspect, and minimized or removed all the non-supers' roles.
Current Marvel movies are like Ubisoft open world games. Technically it's in a world but it feels fake and built around the protag. Sam Rami built a rockstar open world, where it feels like the world has a life outside the protoag
I've longed for games where the player is not special in the world for a long time. Where it doesn't revolve around you. The initial trailer for Stray looked like it was aimed precisely at that, but then they completely reversed course for the final product
I could never really put my finger on why the MCU spideys were dissappointing despite being so genuinely enjoyable and seemingly checking all the character beat and action boxes. Well ya nailed it! Maybe you're as clever as you think you are! ;-}
Excellent video - and Spider-Man 2 is likewise my favourite superhero movie, a modern take on It’s A Wonderful Life (coming 10 years after Muriel’s Wedding inverted the basic plot of It’s A Wonderful Life). The people on the train are essentially the same people who save George at the end of IAWL.
I can remember so many moments from the Raimi Spider-Man films perfectly. I'll be damned if anything really sticks with me from any of the MCU movies. Uh, maybe that umbrella thing from GotG2.
I say all the time that Spider-Man 2 is the greatest super hero movie ever made, and my buddy and I make that exact same Vindicated joke as much as possible. You doing both, within about 20 seconds of each other, blew my mind. I think I’m supposed to be your bestie, Patrick.
I think the closest any recent superhero film has gotten to that human connection I Spider-man Into the Spider-Verse. It's not quite the same as the Raimi films, but the fact that I can remember the teacher, the school security guard, the bagel lady and more than a few citizens is closer to it than anything in the MCU right now
My favorites are the chef who simply drops the check with an unamused face before leaving the screen and the guy explaining the metaphor for anyone being Spider-Man. Or even that kid looking at the snowman face.
I also, felt vindicated. I've grew up with these movies and I re-watched the series recently, and it cemented to me that it wasn't just nostalgia glasses. Great video and thanks for pointing out how special it was to actually care about the bystanders the heroes save. In the MCU the heroes sit in a pent house. the elite of the elite. They are the ubermensch that we peons couldn't comprehend or understand why they bend down to help us. DCU just exasperates this and the stakes get higher because few thousand deaths are nothing if they are just faceless numbers. The Boys was a smart critique of this.
Patrick (H) Willems.. you're pretty great at this, whatever THIS is. Call it what you will be it video essay, documentary editorial, philosophical insight via modern media/art, historical altruism seen thru a cinematic lens, short-form meta film making, carrot-on-a-stick to enlightenment, spoon full of sugar dissertation, big-picture objective observational criticism or any number of terms i've struggled w/ when trying to describe your channel in recommendations to friends there is always one i find myself using that reliably relates your content succinctly... genius. Thank god that island didn't swallow you whole, i'd hate for all this to end on a cliff hanger! Besides, i know you know WE know that YOU know you're capable of writing yourself out to a much more satisfying end or eternity or new beginning, who knows!? (spoilers: YOU do.. or you WILL, eventually; i have no doubt) Until then by fate or prophecy or circumstance, keep it up & i'll keep watching. Thank You
Remember the New York battle sequence in the first Avengers movie? There was supposed to be this small narrative thread, showing the battle from the perspective of an ordinary waitress, working in a cafe in the middle of the combat zone. She was supposed to be rescued by Captain America, and there were a few shots after that where she's trying to make her way to safety while the Avengers and the Chitauri and the police are clashing all around her. That waitress' shots were cut from the final theatrical release, but were included in the deleted scenes for the DVD. The MCU has been cutting out the normal people, right from the beginning.
The Holland spiderman movies really manage to completely erase Peter's struggle of being poor and having to take care of his elderly aunt. Something that was core to his character by Stan Lee
@@RtXyuFgjiDF2-6 The three movies are barely put together, they just feel like spinoffs of the actual Iron Man/Avengers movies. Not to mention he doesn't have a personal story or motivation... The first two movies are about Tony Stark's enemies and the last movie is about enemies of OTHER spidermen. Tom Holland's spiderman movies feel like they were written by people who have never read a spider-man story or don't care what makes spider-man spider-man.
Yep. I don't mind aunt may being younger (she was younger in the ultimate comics and that worked fine) but in both the original asm issues and the ultimate issues there was recurring g thread that he had to step up and contribute to the house more now that uncle Ben was dead. That's why he got a job at the bugle and such. To help support his aunt. I don't mind Peter going in a huge school study abroad trip like in far from home necessarily, but you would think that would be a good opportunity for some money drama. Even the amazing spider-man movies focused on that stuff. I have issues with the amazing movies but at least they got that right.
@@galactic85 They aged down his aunt and made her mom-aged so she's just his mom, he's younger, he's going to a high-tech school for gifted kids, he has a chubby best friend who helps him with science, he's getting help from the Avengers.... they just took Miles Morales' characterization and placement in the world and gave it to Peter -.-
I've always said, the most important character that elevates the Raimi trilogy over all other Spider-Man films since, is the city of New York. That's who Spider-Man has always existed for, and his relationship to his community is among the most compelling things about him. That's why the Daily Bugle is such a significant component of his narratives, because it shows the complications and misunderstandings at play in that relationship, as someone tries to twist him and make an enemy of him to the people he loves and protects. But in Raimi's trilogy (especially the first two), the most memorable and triumphant scenes are when New York teams up to save/help Spider-Man against the bad guys. It establishes what's at stake, and who the villain is truly against. The fight scenes might be 1-on-1, but the villain is really the enemy of New York, the people Spider-Man loves and protects. The subsequent Spider-Man films (even the best of them) lacked that critical relationship, and didn't make a character of New York, so there wasn't a relationship to establish the weight of anything going on. It was always either personal or global in scale. (side note, the closest they got was in Homecoming, with the montage of him doing nice things for people around town, and it remains my favorite part of the film. that one guy yelling for Spider-Man to do a flip always sells)
Ditkovich is actually a pretty good representation of most landlords. And given that Steve Ditko was a pretty hard core Republican, it probably a decent depiction of the man himself. He was basically a MAGA before MAGA was a thing.
Jack Kirby was a gruff guy but he spent his whole life fighting nazi's and using his art to convey the horrors of facism. Ditko fell hook line and sinker for an ideology that alan moore described as "white supremacist dreams of the master race, burnt in an early-20th century form."
@@galactic85 Ditko's original version of The Question was basically Ben Shapiro in a trench coat. When he created Peacemaker, he was basically "What if the Punisher worked for Fox News." Ditko was a hard right winger. If he were alive today Crazy Marge Greene would be his version of Wonder Woman.
When Donnell Rawlings said "He stole that guy's pizza!", my group of maybe 7 or 8 friends went BERSERK in the theater. Most of the crew were quiet dudes that were normally terrified to draw attention to themselves but we just couldn't help it!
Even with the deficencies of the MCU environments, I have come to realize that, even when directed by James Gunn, there is no place in the past decade's DC films that I would like to visit, let alone live. I started reading comics more than 5 decades ago and am well aware of vagarities of different comics companies' universes - maybe DC's fictional cities and even whole countries throughout it's long history have had a knock-on effect to the believeability of the characters themselves in the comics; but in the movies, good actors have removed that criticism, and replaced it with a strange distaste for the settings. I noticed it first while watching Shazam - it felt like an after school special from the seventies. That's when I realized there wasn't a single recent depiction of Gotham, Metropolis, Central or Fawcett cities (even Smallville, how do you mess up idyllic small town America?) that I'd prefer to even a layover in Yuma California.
This essay helped to crystallize one of my ongoing gripes with a lot of contemporary comics storytelling. So much of it is superheroes ONLY interacting with their neighbours in the 'cape and tights' gated community. One thing that both Superman and Spider-Man have in common is an extensive supporting cast of "ordinary people", but look at the X-men, the Avengers (once you get past Jarvis, it starts to thin out REAL fast), Green Lantern, etc... The Goblin's whole screed on the rooftop was very much mired in Randian Objectivism. Why should exceptional people be dragged down by the petty problems and concerns of the great mass of 'ordinary folks'? And it's a good basis for a bad guy, but what about good guys? In 'The Incredibles', Mister Incredible laments, "Why can't people just STAY saved?" as though helping people is a terrible burden. Most of the humans in 'The Incredibles' are petty, grotesque caricatures who want nothing more than to drag the heroes down to their level. The big difference between Christopher Reeve's Superman and Henry Cavill's is the degree to which one is driven to help their fellow human while the other is here to act as a beacon to stupid, childlike humanity, and try and show them a better way even though it's an onerous burden. It's the whole reason why so many modern comics are tied up in events where superheroes fight other superheroes over stupid philosophical differences.
Not sure I agree with the premise of this video that the Raimi trilogy ever fell out of favour with people. Yeah Spider-Man 3 was pretty derided and has only just found favour with people through memes but 1 and 2 never really stopped being beloved. There's a lot of revisionist history going on in nerd culture right now (people acting like the Star Wars prequels were always beloved) but to me the Raimi trilogy has always been held in high regard.
The Star Wars prequels were indeed loved by children but they were divisive among the older fans who grew up with the original trilogy. So not entirely revisionist, but a half-truth.
I never thought I'd say this, but: current superhero movies have the same problem as current romcoms. They used to be populated and take place in a world that felt lived in, but now both genres only have room for Characters, people who relate directly to the plot and/or protagonists. It makes for a much less light viewing experience.
I just wanna say glad to have you back. You're one of the few video essayists I still watch. Also your production value was amazing in this video. Everything about your filmmaking has improved since you shot the movie. Very few people on this channel impress me with this kind of cinematic polish but you take the cake. Hats off to you and your crew.
I think there are 2 ingredients in Raimi's Spider-Man movies. People of New York and Raimi's own nostalgia on 60's Spider-Man. Third movie does not give him a much change to those things.
I really enjoyed this video and your going in-depth about the everyday man and ordinary people seen in the Sam Raimi Trilogy. Of course, I'm a huge fan of Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy and believe them to be the best Spider-Man movies ever made and will watch any video on them. I just came across your video just now on my recommendations and had the time of my life with this. In fact from all the videos I've seen discussing this trilogy, not once have I heard anyone mention the NY citizens and how Raimi uses them in the trilogy which is very refreshing and eye-opening to say the least that makes the movies even more better
One of my favorite moments in Spider Man 3 is when Peter says “You’ll get your rent when you fix this damn door!”, and Mr. Ditkovitch says “He is a good boy, he must be in some kind of trouble.” In a way that shows he genuinely cares about Peter, even under all that greedy exterior.
And yes! I was right about the segment covering 9/11 before it came out! Lindsay Ellis’s video about 9/11 in media came in clutch!
YES! Would've been so easy to make Diktovitch react in his typical grumpiness. Instead, humanity leaks through.
Good point! Almost every character in his Spider-Man movies has some redeeming trait or underlying decency - even Norman Osborne, Otto Ocatvius and Flint Marko. Or Jonah Jameson refusing to give up info about Spider-Man to the Goblin. People can be bad, do bad things, but they are rarely 1-dimensional. Except the bullies funnily enough. Flash Thompson and Eddie Brock.
@@MariaVosa but even Flash Thompson shows up at Harry’s funeral in SM3, showing there’s human decency and respect in spite of his previous history with both Peter and Harry. Eddie is the only one who’s an irredeemable asshat.
@@Chenso2099 You are right about Flash, I had forgotten that part. I'm sure Eddie is the only completely irredeemaböe character because the studio forced Raimi to include him ;)
I dunno, humanizing landlords seems like a bad precedent to set...
A thing that always gets me about the bridge scene is that without the help, Spidey actually fails. He can't put the trolley of kids down or fight back against the goblin. He's stuck and he doesn't have a plan. Instead of him digging deep and using his own strength and skill, e get something rarer, and more meaningful: a collective victory. The tugboat workers and people on the bridge couldn't do it without Spidey, but he couldn't do it without them either.
anyway. Volunteer in your community. It's always worth it
Big up, wonderful message.
It also proves the green goblin wrong when he said that the people in the city would hate him.
Sam Raimi really was the perfect guy to bring Spidey to the big screen for the first time. He came from humble beginnings, was an outsider within the Hollywood system for many years, and is completely sincere and honest in his goal to entertain his audience... He is the Peter Parker of movie directors.
Be f CF cfdgsdy FF FTC XX XD the SAME TT
And is the Spider-Man fan of all Spider-Man fans alongside Stan Lee.
Sincerity is a really great description of Raimi - it shines through his films, whatever the genre.
Not taking anything from Raimi but wasn't he... accomodated, let's say? I thought his parents, even if not straight out millionaires, were relatevely wealthy.
@@VICTORZITOSS I think 'relatively wealthy' equals 'humble beginnings'.
Kind of wild that we moved on from Channel Awesome-style video essays with character skits and increasingly complex lore only to circle back to it but with good writing and production talent.
As the saying goes, time is a flat circle.
I was just thinking about this
There even is an anthagonist played by the same person as the protagonist
Black guy! Woman! Get in here! Put on costumes! (screams and fires gun in the air)
Just goes to show that the issue wasn't the format, but the execution (and in some cases, the people behind it)
@@antisora13 thanks Zach
I feel the need to share the fact that the Nostalgia Critic specifically listed the side characters and extras as among the things he hated most in the Rami movies in a video almost 10 years ago, and I'm just so glad I've found new RUclips channels that comedically analyze media since then. This was cathartic.
His opinions regarding Spider-Man movies in general, though having some good points here and there, are pretty much bullshit.
@@HMNCLunarI remember when he shared Cosmonaut's video about Raimi's trilogy saying "See? See guys I was right!!" While ignoring that his review of the Andrew Garfield movies was way harsher
He is such a crappy reviewer and person in general.
Did he? I specifically remembered him saying in his review of Spider-Man 2 that to side characters were his favorite, especially Ursula and Mr Ditkovich.
@@osmanyousif7849guess his viewpoint changed
This has regularly been my main problem with the MCU films, great as the often are in many ways. The motivations for the superhero protagonists have increasingly been each other rather than the people and communities around them. This was especially egregious in Infinity War and Endgame, where they were explitly written as primarily trying to save each other - with the rest of the world being mostly an implicit concern. If they could connect more with 'ordinary' people, it would honestly help so much with engagement and emotional investment.
Nah the explict goal was to save the world.
And this is why I loved No Way Home, not because of it's reasonable nostalgia (that's my opinion, stfu) but the way they softly remade MCU Spider-Man by pushing him back to his roots at the last minutes of the film.
@@somecallmejeremy That makes sense - and I wouldn't blame you for having a chunk of nostalgia at seeing all those faces from the past again, as I have some fairly potent early to mid 00s memories associated with those films!
this rings so true
@@wyndgrove9452 Good to know. The reason why I said the nostalgia's reasonable is because why it's also to pump up the box office, it also had a purpose of teaching Tom's Spider-Man to become the Spider-Man that we all know, hence becoming that character in the end, and I think it works.
Raimi's Spiderman had a lot of scenes filmed on location in New York, whereas the MCU Spiderman movies (and Raimi's Multiverse of Madness) were filmed behind green screens in Atlanta, which contributes to that "empty" feeling.
People mocked George Lucas for using green screen all the time for the prequels. Then Hollywood realized "Holy shit......THIS WILL SAVE US MONEY!" and now his approach is becoming the default.
@@galactic85 saving money is nice and all but the director not having to move his arse out of his seat is pretty great too. Now the coffee doesn't get spilled that easily anymore.
To be fair, Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy didn't have a worldwide pandemic to deal with. I remember watching Raimi's audio commentary for Multiverse of Madness, and he kept talking about things he wanted to do that were impossible due to COVID restrictions at the time. But I can see what you're talking about.
@@Padlock_Steve those animators need so much help
@@galactic85 George Lucas at least has the excuse of need alien/futuristic environments, but New York is right there
The "you mess with one of us you mess with *all* of us" scene makes me tear up, even now as an adult, and even out of context from the rest of the film. As does the scene on the train from the second film.
Part of that is due to having seen them as a kid, and having an emotional memory of them, but part of it is down to how sincere they were. Those moments really stuck with me because they didn't have a snarky, self aware, "well that happened" type of attitude.
Yes! And it was extra poignant as we had just come through 9/11 when it hit theaters.
Nowadays it's "you come from Mexico and take tax money from one of us, you take tax money from ALL of us!"
I love the MCU Spider-Man movies but always felt like the Raimi trilogy just had a more "homey" and comforting feel. I just chalked it up to my nostalgia vision but now that you brought it up this could be a big reason why
Those were more home than the "Home" movies.
Great video! The class struggle and the usage of "little people" really flew over my head when I originally watched these movies. Which is surprising, because as you pointed out, it really is the heart of the franchise.
It's the thing the MCU is lacking, actual heroics and the people. Spiderman is from the streets and that's where he should stay
I agree that the scenes with the landlord's daughter isn't a romantic subplot per se, but I always assumed she had a crush on him and she gave him the cake as an excuse to hang out with him.
It was definitely a "come-hither" cake that Pete didn't pick up on. 😄
I will never get enough of Raimi's Spider-Man ... And also, I always feel that place/environment in Spiderman Marvel Trilogy felt not real at all. At first I always thought thats due to the place itself is not real, but CGI generated,but after watching this video you definitely answer of why I feel like that. Raimi intricately build new york and it people as the main character beside peter and his villain...
Also when you live in Atlanta for a few years, you really develop an eye for when they use it while passing it off as another city.
Absolutely agree! The people of NYC feeling like real people with real lives in the Raimi films gives what happens to Spider-Man a real sense of stakes and purpose. The MCU films have such fantastical stakes, but those stakes never feel real because we never see the consequences of the villains or heroes actions contextualized in a grounded or meaningful way. I also think Raimi's cinematography, choreography, blocking, etc just look SOOOOO much better than the MCU stuff. Raimi's films look incredible and the action is so well filmed. They're just a cut above most of the MCU's photography.
I would say Netflix's Daredevil is really good at showing everyday people as well. Like that prison guard in the pilot, Brett Mahoney, Father Paul Lantom, Claire Temple, Ray Nadeem, and many one-off characters. That show is very good at making you feel like you are on the streets with them.
Thank you I was just about to comment about Daredevil but then saw your comment
Jessica Jones and Luke Cage also featured some great interactions and scenes with bit characters.
I think you are correct but most of those characters qualify more as supporting characters rather than the kind of background characters patrick is talking about. Claire and ray especially play crucial roles on the plots of seaspns 1 and season 3. Season 3 is arguably just as much rats story as it is matt's story. I would say a better example is Mrs. Cardenas in season one, or the nurse that ben hrich interacts with in season 1 as he tries to care for his wife, or Blake tower from seasons 2 and 3.
YES! THANK YOU! THESE SIDE CHARACTERS ARE GREAT! I remember watching a certain critic as a child and hearing him complain about all the "pointless side characters" and thinking "yeah those guys are pointless." Now that im older I'm like "hey wait a minute...all those characters are great and the fact that I remember ALL OF THEM is pretty incredible." Raimi cast actors who took characters that easily could have been one note and elevated them into ones that felt a little more real. That should be PRAISED. I would rather have a superhero movie where every small character is memorable than a movie where civilians who aren't directly connected to the protagonist are basically nonexistent or are treated as cannon foder for the main villain.
Honestly, I think the popularity of the MCU is more fragile than it might seem right now, and I think the lack of care and attention given to regular people is a big part of why. The entire time I was watching No Way Home, I couldn't get past how empty and depopulated the movie felt, and in general, it's part of the larger, increasingly obvious problem of the MCU not being about anything real, not even anything as simple as the value of using one's talents to help other people.
I think the reason why is because Disney has a near monopoly on blockbuster IP. The one major competitor, DCEU has been horribly mishandled and is now in the hands of a company that seems like it has no idea what its doing.
I think it's something The Avengers got right that has been neglected since
@@reubenm.d.5218 It was still intact in Age of Ultron and Civil War, and the Home trilogy.
@@somecallmejeremy Civil War seemed like the beginning of the end to me, tbh. The main conflict started with the Avengers seeing how they impact everyday people, then slowly devolved into interpersonal drama.
@@adora_was_taken Civil War's a great movie though. I'd love to hear your opinion on it, especially the final battle when Tony discovered Bucky killed his parents and Steve kept that secret for years.
I'm in my mid-thirties, grew up watching the movies, have seen Spiderman 2 numerous times, and yet every time I watch the mask-off part of the train scene I have to turn away from my wife so she can't see I'm like two steps from being a blubbery mess. The scene hits me every time.
100% agreed. Raimi's Spider-Man films feel so timeless and universal that it manages to easily strike all of the right chords and tug at all the right heart strings. It's the same feeling I get watching Lord of the Rings that I didn't get from the Hobbit (and certainly not Rings of Power).
You should get more comfortable showing your wife your emotions
Same. I remember even at the time it got me...I was thinking when the mask came off 'Oh! So, they know who he is now?! That can't be good!' Then what happens? The people just gently catch him when he nearly falls and carry him safely into the train and actually look after him and compare him to their own families...really affecting and for me at the time totally unexpected...in a good way.
Sounds like an insecure marriage
@@th3giv3r lol
SO many fantastic comedians in these movies, a wise decision to include them, as it adds so much texture to the films. Folks that didn't get a mention in this video: Donnell Rawlings, Aasif Mandvi & Joey Diaz.
Every Scene with J. K. Simmons.
Easy.
Honorable mention goes to Hoffman. Every time I watch these I like Hoffman more and more.
Ms brant! Yes? Get me a violin. *scoffs*
Sam Raimi's extras are very memorable, good to see that someone finally made a video about it. 😀
Spider-Man has always been the most relatable superhero. None of know what it's like to be billionaires like Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark. But most of us know what it's like to work terrible service jobs, be broke, and struggle with rent.
It makes me so happy to know someone else has been quoting Peter’s teacher saying “I kid you not” for as long as I have
Hold on, I had to go back and re-watch that moment where Dave is reacting to Patrick's upload. The way that the diegetic notification "ding" sound merged with the optimistic, curious musical score made my jaw drop when I noticed. If that's Brian Metolius' doing, he's a genius. Also, this made me want a jelly donut.
You know, I'm something of a scientist myself.
@@Gnolog11 Be very proud of yourself for both that clever bit of scoring, and that reply. I hope you have a lovely day!
@@JulesStarn same to you :)
@@Gnolog11 Also, props on referencing Danny Elfman's Peter Parker Theme at 35:38
Glockenspiel! 💜
One of the problems the MCU has created for paying attention to members of the public is, they've trained audiences to search for easter eggs. Just about any person given a speaking line or extra camera time is going to be speculated to be some reference to the comics or a set-up for the next big reveal. Because of this, it becomes difficult to feature people in the MCU films that aren't for fanservice.
Remake breaking bad jr
The Raimi films look INCREDIBLE compared with the MCU ones. The colours and movement 🤯
A week or so ago, I said that the "Do a flip!" scene from Homecoming was the best moment in the entire MCU. I feel vindicated by this video.
I see what you did there.
Honestly I have issues with the watts trilogy but that sequence where he is just interacting with random people on the street is not one of them. Very well done sequence.
@@galactic85 Right, such a Spider-Man-y scene.
Spider-Man 2, in my opinion, is still the peak of the comic book/superhero film genre
I would have agreed, but Into the Spider-Verse exists.
@@benwasserman8223 and it's inferior
Spider-man 2 and Spider-man-verse!
I agree. It’s also my favorite film period (superhero or not)
I agree it's still my favorite Spider-Man movie
you are walter white jr???
Raimi gets that an important factor of superhero comics is seeing the random passer-by’s perspective. I love all the cutaways in Spider-Man 1-3 to random citizens, to the point they have the best most iconic moments. Lucy Lawless saying “A guy with eight hands?…sounds hot” is burnt into my brain lol.
I rewatched the Spider-Man movies a week ago incidentally. I really enjoyed them after not seeing them since I was kid. I also noticed how it feels like a much more lived in than the MCU movies. Also even the little Easter eggs like Dr. Conners feel a lot less shoe horned in.
Totally! I feel like dr Connors works better because raimi wasn't necessarily laying threads for future films. With the mcu the cameos nowadays all of them are basically ads for other movies or shows you have to watch or their presence could be cut from the story without changing much of anything. With characters like dr Connors it's just the film makers going "hey...here is an established spider-man character from the source material. Would he be off good use for this specific story or scene? Maybe we can turn him into the lizard someday but theres no guarantee we'll be able to do that. Lets just out him in and see what happens down the line! He works fine enoigh on his own." Nowadays if raimi was making a movie like Spider-man 2 the school doctor that Peter goes to visit in the second act would have to be doctor Strange or something.
Im still waiting for breaking bad jr 2
I just want to say that the watching guides are an amazing idea. I had already seen all four suggested Spiderman movies, but they got me to watch 25th Hour for the first time last weekend. Not only did they introduce me to a fantastic movie (seriously though, that last 10 minutes made me cry), but they also deepened my appreciation and understanding of this video.
It's not just the MCU. Superhero fiction in general has just become very disinterested in regular people
Which sucks because the whole reason i think a lot of people connect with these characters is that they are regular people that experience day to day struggles exaggerated in an operatic fashion. As Grant Morrison put it, Superman walks his dog too...he just happens to do it on the moon.
Patrick is back to talk about the Sam Raimi Spider-Man Trilogy?! It definitely is Pizza Time!
Raimi and his buddies, the Coens are both masters of fleshing out their worlds via a bunch of colorful scene stealing extras. And the Spidey trilogy is one of the best examples on Raimi’s end. Really the definition of “there are no small parts.”. It’s a huge reason why they’re my favorite filmmakers tbh.
It's a Midwestern thing,
It is not at all a new observation that the Avengers have basically become Team America. Their detatched lives where they never interact with anyone not also a superhero, a love interest or an employee while they appoint themselves judge, jury and executioner of the entire earth would be such a great parody if it were made with anything other than corporate cynicism.
OSP recently did a pair of podcasts about Superman. One focused on media that satirizes him and the other focuses on Superman preventing any collateral damage. They talked about how modern superhero movies "graduate" from saving ordinary citizens to stopping a big-bad.
The citizens of NYC are as integral to a good Spider-Man story as ol' webhead himself.
The JMS run on the comic from the early 2000's does an amazing (yes pun) job of that.
One thing i feel the Garfield and Holland films lacked was some more inclusion of the everyday New Yorkers that populate spidey's hometown.
The Raimi films deffo have that in spades, even if it's subtle things like the pedestrians who provide background gags
I don't feel like the Garfield films do quit as good a job as the raimi films. But I think by and large the two ask films handle civilians better than the Holland ones. At least in asm 2 we get stuff like him interacting with the little kid.
So true about the pedestrians. My favorite little pedestrian gag is the “he stole that guy’s pizza!” From Spider-Man 2.
*laughs evilly staring at my ASM2 sequel fics that try to shove in more of those everyday people stuff*
Preaching to the choir, Patrick. That seen in the deli in Homecoming, always reminded me of the flower shop scene from the room. Hi doggie
I need more of breaking bad jr
That was 9 years ago sadly😢
@@boiledtatoes true 😭
Yes, yes, yes, yes on all points. And you made me realize that this approach is also a big reason the Richard Donner Superman still remains so charming if technically less sophisticated (Just re-watch the helicopter rescue scene and all the pieces you outlined are in place). Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure Raimi handles his background characters similarly in "Darkman".
Last couple of times I watched Spider-man 2 that train scene's ending had me near to tears. It's just perfect. Proper good feels moment. Don't think anything has come close to that since in any superhero film.
Logan hits hard, but for different reasons.
Glad I found your comment, I wanted to say the same thing. The bridge sequence is great for the way he stops the train, but what really elevates it is what comes after.
The train sequence is the best action sequence in super hero movies. Everything there is perfect: the stakes getting bigger, as Spidey try to fight Doc Ock, help civilians in the middle of the caos, and stop the train. The end with everyone helping him is the perfect way to end.
One of my major criticisms of the modern superhero films, the MCU in particular, is that I don't feel any connection between the normal, common person and the superhero.
You very rarely see the reactions of random people.
This is something that creates problems. For example...
Why is Ms Marvel a fan of Captain Marvel?
Obviously, the answer is because she is one in the comics, but in the MCU it makes absolutely no sense. Regardless of what you think of Captain Marvel as both a character and as a film, she has never interacted with normal people or even been seen by them - I don't think. She is always on another planet, and when she is on Earth, she is in a place where no members of the public are (and for just a short time).
It makes sense for there to be young kids in the Spider-Man films to love Spider-Man, but it makes no sense for a young kid to love Captain Marvel in the MCU.
Star Wars (at least the original trilogy) has a similar secret ingredient. From the denizens of the cantina to the other pilots making the run on the death star, the galaxy feels like there is more happening off screen. I contrast this with Star Trek where the only people that matter are the members of the main cast.
I recently rewatched the FIRST season of the next generation, and it felt shockingly different, like a much bigger world. Really too bad the rest of the series didn't have that perspective
Wait, is the guy who says "He stinks and I don't like him" and the guy yelling "You mess with one of us you mess with all of us" the same guy? Holy shit! That is a very solid mini character arc that guy got.
You get my like for the idea but I remember that they are different people.
They're definitely different guys.
@diamond dogs How should you ... ?
@@intuitive_conscious_being_3452 Yeah the former guy is played by comic Jim Norton and I think the latter guy is played by someone else.
@@nancykerrigan Which also shows the picture of the collective that Sam Raimi is working with to show spideys connection to the people.
Sam Raimi was the only director to put real New Yorkers in a Spiderman movie.
It's interesting to me that Sam Raimi is both a friend of, and sometime collaborator with, the Coen Brothers. They also spend a lot of time making the ordinary, background folks in their films feel like they have full lives and personalities outside of the narrative. Virtually every one of their films has a standout moment from a minor character who's only in one scene.
Yeah, but if you have amazing bit characters, that takes time away from the repetitive references and obsession with connecting everything that the MCU has.
I think you really explained to me why I could never get into the MCU when it started out. Raimi's Spiderman movies were relatable because their foundation was built on ordinary people. The MCU did away with that almost entirely and the result just feels hollow in comparison.
Mmmm, now that you mention it, maybe that's why my favorite movie in the MCU (tier one, at least) is the first half of Captain America. Even if it's military and such, Steve is just a regular guy trying to do "a" right thing for other regular people even if they wash away the crude of the situation (which is fine by me, it's not that kind of movie).
Even the military and scientist are pretty ordinary in suits and coats so that when Steve is recuing the to be howling commandos it still feels like him saving people.
Following on this thought, most of his struggle is relatable and, when it comes to getting his powers, at least he achievesthrough his actual, "regular", superpower: his heart. Another scientist gives him the serum but it's his personality (and incredible luck) what gets him there. It still plays with the theme and it's more in line with the Stan Lee approach of "people with powers of gods"
You didn't like Ironman or GOTG? Those movies didn't check those boxes, but they were great for their own reasons, IMO.
@@jabarak1 And I will let people like those for their own reasons, and I did enjoy Guardians 1 when it came out, but the rest of the MCU that I saw was such a let down that I couldn't care to revisit them.
@@jabarak1 As much as Tony Stark is a rich dude and super-intelligent, he's foremost an engineer who's happiest with grease on his hands and something constructive to do. The vices are just a distraction; what do we see him doing when he has spare time? Tinkering with his car in his garage with his radio blasting.
@@ChallengeIdeas Which is an aspect I wish they would be back. So many times he has a new gadget that was built off screen or before the movie started.
Without fail, Sam Raimi's Spider-man movies make me emotional. They were my favourite superhero movies as a kid and they have continued to be some of my favs. They captured a lot of the hope and some of the essence of why I like the genre. Which is why I feel some fatigue beginning with the MCU. But it still has its moments. For example, in the final episode of Falcon and Winter Soldier when Sam puts on the new suit and actually begins to save people.
your gosh darn right
I expected there to be a comparison to Watchmen, since that is a comic about superheroes where at the end (SPOILER ALERT) a huge chunk of New York is destroyed by the villain and the author invested much energy in making the non-supers have a life of their own and right before the attack they gathered together to stop a street brawl, to show the spirit of New York. And how the film adaptation largely ignored that aspect, and minimized or removed all the non-supers' roles.
Well, his next video is the Snyder video...
I would not be the superhero fan I am today without Sam Raimi,s Spider-man movies.
Don't forget Mr. Ditkovich was going to be revealed as a retired Kraven in Spider-Man 4!
Current Marvel movies are like Ubisoft open world games. Technically it's in a world but it feels fake and built around the protag. Sam Rami built a rockstar open world, where it feels like the world has a life outside the protoag
I've longed for games where the player is not special in the world for a long time. Where it doesn't revolve around you. The initial trailer for Stray looked like it was aimed precisely at that, but then they completely reversed course for the final product
@@bpansky Brutal Legend kind of does that
Petition for him to recreate Breaking Bad JR
I could never really put my finger on why the MCU spideys were dissappointing despite being so genuinely enjoyable and seemingly checking all the character beat and action boxes. Well ya nailed it! Maybe you're as clever as you think you are! ;-}
Excellent video - and Spider-Man 2 is likewise my favourite superhero movie, a modern take on It’s A Wonderful Life (coming 10 years after Muriel’s Wedding inverted the basic plot of It’s A Wonderful Life). The people on the train are essentially the same people who save George at the end of IAWL.
I can remember so many moments from the Raimi Spider-Man films perfectly. I'll be damned if anything really sticks with me from any of the MCU movies. Uh, maybe that umbrella thing from GotG2.
The real secret ingredient was the bomb-ass soundtrack with Nickelback screaming about flying eagles!!
I say all the time that Spider-Man 2 is the greatest super hero movie ever made, and my buddy and I make that exact same Vindicated joke as much as possible. You doing both, within about 20 seconds of each other, blew my mind. I think I’m supposed to be your bestie, Patrick.
You're gash darn right
I think the closest any recent superhero film has gotten to that human connection I Spider-man Into the Spider-Verse. It's not quite the same as the Raimi films, but the fact that I can remember the teacher, the school security guard, the bagel lady and more than a few citizens is closer to it than anything in the MCU right now
My favorites are the chef who simply drops the check with an unamused face before leaving the screen and the guy explaining the metaphor for anyone being Spider-Man. Or even that kid looking at the snowman face.
I also, felt vindicated. I've grew up with these movies and I re-watched the series recently, and it cemented to me that it wasn't just nostalgia glasses. Great video and thanks for pointing out how special it was to actually care about the bystanders the heroes save. In the MCU the heroes sit in a pent house. the elite of the elite. They are the ubermensch that we peons couldn't comprehend or understand why they bend down to help us. DCU just exasperates this and the stakes get higher because few thousand deaths are nothing if they are just faceless numbers. The Boys was a smart critique of this.
Breaking bad jr
Patrick (H) Willems.. you're pretty great at this, whatever THIS is. Call it what you will be it video essay, documentary editorial, philosophical insight via modern media/art, historical altruism seen thru a cinematic lens, short-form meta film making, carrot-on-a-stick to enlightenment, spoon full of sugar dissertation, big-picture objective observational criticism or any number of terms i've struggled w/ when trying to describe your channel in recommendations to friends there is always one i find myself using that reliably relates your content succinctly... genius.
Thank god that island didn't swallow you whole, i'd hate for all this to end on a cliff hanger!
Besides, i know you know WE know that YOU know you're capable of writing yourself out to a much more satisfying end or eternity or new beginning, who knows!? (spoilers: YOU do.. or you WILL, eventually; i have no doubt)
Until then by fate or prophecy or circumstance, keep it up & i'll keep watching.
Thank You
Make breaking bad jr two!! Best film on earth!!!!
There are people who don't think Spider-Man 2 is the best comic book movie ever?
Insanity
Remember the New York battle sequence in the first Avengers movie? There was supposed to be this small narrative thread, showing the battle from the perspective of an ordinary waitress, working in a cafe in the middle of the combat zone. She was supposed to be rescued by Captain America, and there were a few shots after that where she's trying to make her way to safety while the Avengers and the Chitauri and the police are clashing all around her.
That waitress' shots were cut from the final theatrical release, but were included in the deleted scenes for the DVD. The MCU has been cutting out the normal people, right from the beginning.
Your gosh darn right
The Holland spiderman movies really manage to completely erase Peter's struggle of being poor and having to take care of his elderly aunt. Something that was core to his character by Stan Lee
It's my biggest concern in why I don't like the Tom Holland Spider-Man I just feel like he is out of characters. His trilogy don't feel focused.
@@RtXyuFgjiDF2-6 The three movies are barely put together, they just feel like spinoffs of the actual Iron Man/Avengers movies. Not to mention he doesn't have a personal story or motivation... The first two movies are about Tony Stark's enemies and the last movie is about enemies of OTHER spidermen. Tom Holland's spiderman movies feel like they were written by people who have never read a spider-man story or don't care what makes spider-man spider-man.
Yep. I don't mind aunt may being younger (she was younger in the ultimate comics and that worked fine) but in both the original asm issues and the ultimate issues there was recurring g thread that he had to step up and contribute to the house more now that uncle Ben was dead. That's why he got a job at the bugle and such. To help support his aunt. I don't mind Peter going in a huge school study abroad trip like in far from home necessarily, but you would think that would be a good opportunity for some money drama. Even the amazing spider-man movies focused on that stuff. I have issues with the amazing movies but at least they got that right.
@@galactic85 They aged down his aunt and made her mom-aged so she's just his mom, he's younger, he's going to a high-tech school for gifted kids, he has a chubby best friend who helps him with science, he's getting help from the Avengers.... they just took Miles Morales' characterization and placement in the world and gave it to Peter -.-
I've always said, the most important character that elevates the Raimi trilogy over all other Spider-Man films since, is the city of New York. That's who Spider-Man has always existed for, and his relationship to his community is among the most compelling things about him. That's why the Daily Bugle is such a significant component of his narratives, because it shows the complications and misunderstandings at play in that relationship, as someone tries to twist him and make an enemy of him to the people he loves and protects. But in Raimi's trilogy (especially the first two), the most memorable and triumphant scenes are when New York teams up to save/help Spider-Man against the bad guys. It establishes what's at stake, and who the villain is truly against. The fight scenes might be 1-on-1, but the villain is really the enemy of New York, the people Spider-Man loves and protects.
The subsequent Spider-Man films (even the best of them) lacked that critical relationship, and didn't make a character of New York, so there wasn't a relationship to establish the weight of anything going on. It was always either personal or global in scale. (side note, the closest they got was in Homecoming, with the montage of him doing nice things for people around town, and it remains my favorite part of the film. that one guy yelling for Spider-Man to do a flip always sells)
Ditkovich is actually a pretty good representation of most landlords. And given that Steve Ditko was a pretty hard core Republican, it probably a decent depiction of the man himself. He was basically a MAGA before MAGA was a thing.
Jack Kirby was a gruff guy but he spent his whole life fighting nazi's and using his art to convey the horrors of facism. Ditko fell hook line and sinker for an ideology that alan moore described as "white supremacist dreams of the master race, burnt in an early-20th century form."
@@galactic85 Ditko's original version of The Question was basically Ben Shapiro in a trench coat.
When he created Peacemaker, he was basically "What if the Punisher worked for Fox News."
Ditko was a hard right winger. If he were alive today Crazy Marge Greene would be his version of Wonder Woman.
The Spider-Man trilogy is really special to me. It was to me what Star Wars was to so many people, as is my understanding.
When Donnell Rawlings said "He stole that guy's pizza!", my group of maybe 7 or 8 friends went BERSERK in the theater. Most of the crew were quiet dudes that were normally terrified to draw attention to themselves but we just couldn't help it!
Mcu has NOTHING on the Raimi films. Better action. Better cinematography. Better characters. Better editing.
Marvel has become fast food
Even with the deficencies of the MCU environments, I have come to realize that, even when directed by James Gunn, there is no place in the past decade's DC films that I would like to visit, let alone live. I started reading comics more than 5 decades ago and am well aware of vagarities of different comics companies' universes - maybe DC's fictional cities and even whole countries throughout it's long history have had a knock-on effect to the believeability of the characters themselves in the comics; but in the movies, good actors have removed that criticism, and replaced it with a strange distaste for the settings. I noticed it first while watching Shazam - it felt like an after school special from the seventies. That's when I realized there wasn't a single recent depiction of Gotham, Metropolis, Central or Fawcett cities (even Smallville, how do you mess up idyllic small town America?) that I'd prefer to even a layover in Yuma California.
The Raimi spidermans are still the only DC/Marvel movies I consider watchable.
The more I read/watch about Sam Raimi’s Spiderman the more I love it. Thanks for this video ❤️
Raimi's films don't feel like micromanaged corporate products. The MCU absolutely does.
Spiderman 3 kinda was though
@@dustywaynemusic6297 it had micromanaged elements sure but King Raimi managed to integrate it pretty well into the story and themes of the film
Remember when superheros actually saved people?
That's one of the reasons why the last Avengers móvies bored the shit Out of me, It all happens in either seemingly deserted cities or Made up places
Dan Olson/Folding Ideas made a video about this at the time of the Andrew Garfield Spidey films.
@@jvgreendarmok love that guy
Raimis tone IS Spiderman- the operatic score, the side characters, the emotional struggle, the tragic villains, its all there.
“I’ve told this story so often, it might even be true” is such a banger line
This essay helped to crystallize one of my ongoing gripes with a lot of contemporary comics storytelling.
So much of it is superheroes ONLY interacting with their neighbours in the 'cape and tights' gated community. One thing that both Superman and Spider-Man have in common is an extensive supporting cast of "ordinary people", but look at the X-men, the Avengers (once you get past Jarvis, it starts to thin out REAL fast), Green Lantern, etc...
The Goblin's whole screed on the rooftop was very much mired in Randian Objectivism. Why should exceptional people be dragged down by the petty problems and concerns of the great mass of 'ordinary folks'? And it's a good basis for a bad guy, but what about good guys?
In 'The Incredibles', Mister Incredible laments, "Why can't people just STAY saved?" as though helping people is a terrible burden. Most of the humans in 'The Incredibles' are petty, grotesque caricatures who want nothing more than to drag the heroes down to their level.
The big difference between Christopher Reeve's Superman and Henry Cavill's is the degree to which one is driven to help their fellow human while the other is here to act as a beacon to stupid, childlike humanity, and try and show them a better way even though it's an onerous burden.
It's the whole reason why so many modern comics are tied up in events where superheroes fight other superheroes over stupid philosophical differences.
Not sure I agree with the premise of this video that the Raimi trilogy ever fell out of favour with people. Yeah Spider-Man 3 was pretty derided and has only just found favour with people through memes but 1 and 2 never really stopped being beloved. There's a lot of revisionist history going on in nerd culture right now (people acting like the Star Wars prequels were always beloved) but to me the Raimi trilogy has always been held in high regard.
The Star Wars prequels were indeed loved by children but they were divisive among the older fans who grew up with the original trilogy. So not entirely revisionist, but a half-truth.
Definitely gonna miss… hairy Patrick? Jesus Patrick? Amish Patrick? Caveman Patrick?
Welcome back!
People who find MCU movies way cooler than Raimi's Spider-man are plain and simply stupid. They do not understand what cinema is all about.
27:51 How did I not know James Cameron contributed to the script of Raimi's Spider-Man?
I never thought I'd say this, but: current superhero movies have the same problem as current romcoms. They used to be populated and take place in a world that felt lived in, but now both genres only have room for Characters, people who relate directly to the plot and/or protagonists. It makes for a much less light viewing experience.
The reason is the Russian landlord
Duely noted. I'm not sure there even are civilians in the MCU. At least not anymore. Just people who eventually scream and run away.
I just wanna say glad to have you back. You're one of the few video essayists I still watch. Also your production value was amazing in this video. Everything about your filmmaking has improved since you shot the movie. Very few people on this channel impress me with this kind of cinematic polish but you take the cake. Hats off to you and your crew.
The ordinary people in the MCU are just NPC’s in GTA.
Thing i love about Sam Raimi spiderman was even background characters has character into it, being a New Yorker.
holy crap that was Lucy Lawless this whole time? my mind is blown
I think there are 2 ingredients in Raimi's Spider-Man movies. People of New York and Raimi's own nostalgia on 60's Spider-Man. Third movie does not give him a much change to those things.
He's right, Raini has a grasp on visualisation and on people we don't normally see
I really enjoyed this video and your going in-depth about the everyday man and ordinary people seen in the Sam Raimi Trilogy. Of course, I'm a huge fan of Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy and believe them to be the best Spider-Man movies ever made and will watch any video on them. I just came across your video just now on my recommendations and had the time of my life with this. In fact from all the videos I've seen discussing this trilogy, not once have I heard anyone mention the NY citizens and how Raimi uses them in the trilogy which is very refreshing and eye-opening to say the least that makes the movies even more better