A thing that always gets me about the bridge scene is that without the help, Spidey actually fails. He can't put the trolley of kids down or fight back against the goblin. He's stuck and he doesn't have a plan. Instead of him digging deep and using his own strength and skill, e get something rarer, and more meaningful: a collective victory. The tugboat workers and people on the bridge couldn't do it without Spidey, but he couldn't do it without them either. anyway. Volunteer in your community. It's always worth it
I feel the need to share the fact that the Nostalgia Critic specifically listed the side characters and extras as among the things he hated most in the Rami movies in a video almost 10 years ago, and I'm just so glad I've found new RUclips channels that comedically analyze media since then. This was cathartic.
@@HMNCLunarI remember when he shared Cosmonaut's video about Raimi's trilogy saying "See? See guys I was right!!" While ignoring that his review of the Andrew Garfield movies was way harsher
Did he? I specifically remembered him saying in his review of Spider-Man 2 that to side characters were his favorite, especially Ursula and Mr Ditkovich.
One of my favorite moments in Spider Man 3 is when Peter says “You’ll get your rent when you fix this damn door!”, and Mr. Ditkovitch says “He is a good boy, he must be in some kind of trouble.” In a way that shows he genuinely cares about Peter, even under all that greedy exterior. And yes! I was right about the segment covering 9/11 before it came out! Lindsay Ellis’s video about 9/11 in media came in clutch!
Good point! Almost every character in his Spider-Man movies has some redeeming trait or underlying decency - even Norman Osborne, Otto Ocatvius and Flint Marko. Or Jonah Jameson refusing to give up info about Spider-Man to the Goblin. People can be bad, do bad things, but they are rarely 1-dimensional. Except the bullies funnily enough. Flash Thompson and Eddie Brock.
@@MariaVosa but even Flash Thompson shows up at Harry’s funeral in SM3, showing there’s human decency and respect in spite of his previous history with both Peter and Harry. Eddie is the only one who’s an irredeemable asshat.
@@Chenso2099 You are right about Flash, I had forgotten that part. I'm sure Eddie is the only completely irredeemaböe character because the studio forced Raimi to include him ;)
Raimi's Spiderman had a lot of scenes filmed on location in New York, whereas the MCU Spiderman movies (and Raimi's Multiverse of Madness) were filmed behind green screens in Atlanta, which contributes to that "empty" feeling.
People mocked George Lucas for using green screen all the time for the prequels. Then Hollywood realized "Holy shit......THIS WILL SAVE US MONEY!" and now his approach is becoming the default.
@@galactic85 saving money is nice and all but the director not having to move his arse out of his seat is pretty great too. Now the coffee doesn't get spilled that easily anymore.
To be fair, Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy didn't have a worldwide pandemic to deal with. I remember watching Raimi's audio commentary for Multiverse of Madness, and he kept talking about things he wanted to do that were impossible due to COVID restrictions at the time. But I can see what you're talking about.
Sam Raimi really was the perfect guy to bring Spidey to the big screen for the first time. He came from humble beginnings, was an outsider within the Hollywood system for many years, and is completely sincere and honest in his goal to entertain his audience... He is the Peter Parker of movie directors.
Not taking anything from Raimi but wasn't he... accomodated, let's say? I thought his parents, even if not straight out millionaires, were relatevely wealthy.
The "you mess with one of us you mess with *all* of us" scene makes me tear up, even now as an adult, and even out of context from the rest of the film. As does the scene on the train from the second film. Part of that is due to having seen them as a kid, and having an emotional memory of them, but part of it is down to how sincere they were. Those moments really stuck with me because they didn't have a snarky, self aware, "well that happened" type of attitude.
This has regularly been my main problem with the MCU films, great as the often are in many ways. The motivations for the superhero protagonists have increasingly been each other rather than the people and communities around them. This was especially egregious in Infinity War and Endgame, where they were explitly written as primarily trying to save each other - with the rest of the world being mostly an implicit concern. If they could connect more with 'ordinary' people, it would honestly help so much with engagement and emotional investment.
And this is why I loved No Way Home, not because of it's reasonable nostalgia (that's my opinion, stfu) but the way they softly remade MCU Spider-Man by pushing him back to his roots at the last minutes of the film.
@@somecallmejeremy That makes sense - and I wouldn't blame you for having a chunk of nostalgia at seeing all those faces from the past again, as I have some fairly potent early to mid 00s memories associated with those films!
@@wyndgrove9452 Good to know. The reason why I said the nostalgia's reasonable is because why it's also to pump up the box office, it also had a purpose of teaching Tom's Spider-Man to become the Spider-Man that we all know, hence becoming that character in the end, and I think it works.
Raimi gets that an important factor of superhero comics is seeing the random passer-by’s perspective. I love all the cutaways in Spider-Man 1-3 to random citizens, to the point they have the best most iconic moments. Lucy Lawless saying “A guy with eight hands?…sounds hot” is burnt into my brain lol.
Kind of wild that we moved on from Channel Awesome-style video essays with character skits and increasingly complex lore only to circle back to it but with good writing and production talent.
I love the MCU Spider-Man movies but always felt like the Raimi trilogy just had a more "homey" and comforting feel. I just chalked it up to my nostalgia vision but now that you brought it up this could be a big reason why
I agree that the scenes with the landlord's daughter isn't a romantic subplot per se, but I always assumed she had a crush on him and she gave him the cake as an excuse to hang out with him.
I would say Netflix's Daredevil is really good at showing everyday people as well. Like that prison guard in the pilot, Brett Mahoney, Father Paul Lantom, Claire Temple, Ray Nadeem, and many one-off characters. That show is very good at making you feel like you are on the streets with them.
I think you are correct but most of those characters qualify more as supporting characters rather than the kind of background characters patrick is talking about. Claire and ray especially play crucial roles on the plots of seaspns 1 and season 3. Season 3 is arguably just as much rats story as it is matt's story. I would say a better example is Mrs. Cardenas in season one, or the nurse that ben hrich interacts with in season 1 as he tries to care for his wife, or Blake tower from seasons 2 and 3.
Absolutely agree! The people of NYC feeling like real people with real lives in the Raimi films gives what happens to Spider-Man a real sense of stakes and purpose. The MCU films have such fantastical stakes, but those stakes never feel real because we never see the consequences of the villains or heroes actions contextualized in a grounded or meaningful way. I also think Raimi's cinematography, choreography, blocking, etc just look SOOOOO much better than the MCU stuff. Raimi's films look incredible and the action is so well filmed. They're just a cut above most of the MCU's photography.
Great video! The class struggle and the usage of "little people" really flew over my head when I originally watched these movies. Which is surprising, because as you pointed out, it really is the heart of the franchise.
YES! THANK YOU! THESE SIDE CHARACTERS ARE GREAT! I remember watching a certain critic as a child and hearing him complain about all the "pointless side characters" and thinking "yeah those guys are pointless." Now that im older I'm like "hey wait a minute...all those characters are great and the fact that I remember ALL OF THEM is pretty incredible." Raimi cast actors who took characters that easily could have been one note and elevated them into ones that felt a little more real. That should be PRAISED. I would rather have a superhero movie where every small character is memorable than a movie where civilians who aren't directly connected to the protagonist are basically nonexistent or are treated as cannon foder for the main villain.
Spider-Man has always been the most relatable superhero. None of know what it's like to be billionaires like Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark. But most of us know what it's like to work terrible service jobs, be broke, and struggle with rent.
One of the problems the MCU has created for paying attention to members of the public is, they've trained audiences to search for easter eggs. Just about any person given a speaking line or extra camera time is going to be speculated to be some reference to the comics or a set-up for the next big reveal. Because of this, it becomes difficult to feature people in the MCU films that aren't for fanservice.
I will never get enough of Raimi's Spider-Man ... And also, I always feel that place/environment in Spiderman Marvel Trilogy felt not real at all. At first I always thought thats due to the place itself is not real, but CGI generated,but after watching this video you definitely answer of why I feel like that. Raimi intricately build new york and it people as the main character beside peter and his villain...
I'm in my mid-thirties, grew up watching the movies, have seen Spiderman 2 numerous times, and yet every time I watch the mask-off part of the train scene I have to turn away from my wife so she can't see I'm like two steps from being a blubbery mess. The scene hits me every time.
100% agreed. Raimi's Spider-Man films feel so timeless and universal that it manages to easily strike all of the right chords and tug at all the right heart strings. It's the same feeling I get watching Lord of the Rings that I didn't get from the Hobbit (and certainly not Rings of Power).
Same. I remember even at the time it got me...I was thinking when the mask came off 'Oh! So, they know who he is now?! That can't be good!' Then what happens? The people just gently catch him when he nearly falls and carry him safely into the train and actually look after him and compare him to their own families...really affecting and for me at the time totally unexpected...in a good way.
SO many fantastic comedians in these movies, a wise decision to include them, as it adds so much texture to the films. Folks that didn't get a mention in this video: Donnell Rawlings, Aasif Mandvi & Joey Diaz.
The train sequence is the best action sequence in super hero movies. Everything there is perfect: the stakes getting bigger, as Spidey try to fight Doc Ock, help civilians in the middle of the caos, and stop the train. The end with everyone helping him is the perfect way to end.
OSP recently did a pair of podcasts about Superman. One focused on media that satirizes him and the other focuses on Superman preventing any collateral damage. They talked about how modern superhero movies "graduate" from saving ordinary citizens to stopping a big-bad.
Raimi and his buddies, the Coens are both masters of fleshing out their worlds via a bunch of colorful scene stealing extras. And the Spidey trilogy is one of the best examples on Raimi’s end. Really the definition of “there are no small parts.”. It’s a huge reason why they’re my favorite filmmakers tbh.
I rewatched the Spider-Man movies a week ago incidentally. I really enjoyed them after not seeing them since I was kid. I also noticed how it feels like a much more lived in than the MCU movies. Also even the little Easter eggs like Dr. Conners feel a lot less shoe horned in.
Totally! I feel like dr Connors works better because raimi wasn't necessarily laying threads for future films. With the mcu the cameos nowadays all of them are basically ads for other movies or shows you have to watch or their presence could be cut from the story without changing much of anything. With characters like dr Connors it's just the film makers going "hey...here is an established spider-man character from the source material. Would he be off good use for this specific story or scene? Maybe we can turn him into the lizard someday but theres no guarantee we'll be able to do that. Lets just out him in and see what happens down the line! He works fine enoigh on his own." Nowadays if raimi was making a movie like Spider-man 2 the school doctor that Peter goes to visit in the second act would have to be doctor Strange or something.
Yes, yes, yes, yes on all points. And you made me realize that this approach is also a big reason the Richard Donner Superman still remains so charming if technically less sophisticated (Just re-watch the helicopter rescue scene and all the pieces you outlined are in place). Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure Raimi handles his background characters similarly in "Darkman".
Hold on, I had to go back and re-watch that moment where Dave is reacting to Patrick's upload. The way that the diegetic notification "ding" sound merged with the optimistic, curious musical score made my jaw drop when I noticed. If that's Brian Metolius' doing, he's a genius. Also, this made me want a jelly donut.
Honestly, I think the popularity of the MCU is more fragile than it might seem right now, and I think the lack of care and attention given to regular people is a big part of why. The entire time I was watching No Way Home, I couldn't get past how empty and depopulated the movie felt, and in general, it's part of the larger, increasingly obvious problem of the MCU not being about anything real, not even anything as simple as the value of using one's talents to help other people.
I think the reason why is because Disney has a near monopoly on blockbuster IP. The one major competitor, DCEU has been horribly mishandled and is now in the hands of a company that seems like it has no idea what its doing.
@@somecallmejeremy Civil War seemed like the beginning of the end to me, tbh. The main conflict started with the Avengers seeing how they impact everyday people, then slowly devolved into interpersonal drama.
@@adora_was_taken Civil War's a great movie though. I'd love to hear your opinion on it, especially the final battle when Tony discovered Bucky killed his parents and Steve kept that secret for years.
I just want to say that the watching guides are an amazing idea. I had already seen all four suggested Spiderman movies, but they got me to watch 25th Hour for the first time last weekend. Not only did they introduce me to a fantastic movie (seriously though, that last 10 minutes made me cry), but they also deepened my appreciation and understanding of this video.
Remember the New York battle sequence in the first Avengers movie? There was supposed to be this small narrative thread, showing the battle from the perspective of an ordinary waitress, working in a cafe in the middle of the combat zone. She was supposed to be rescued by Captain America, and there were a few shots after that where she's trying to make her way to safety while the Avengers and the Chitauri and the police are clashing all around her. That waitress' shots were cut from the final theatrical release, but were included in the deleted scenes for the DVD. The MCU has been cutting out the normal people, right from the beginning.
Last couple of times I watched Spider-man 2 that train scene's ending had me near to tears. It's just perfect. Proper good feels moment. Don't think anything has come close to that since in any superhero film.
Glad I found your comment, I wanted to say the same thing. The bridge sequence is great for the way he stops the train, but what really elevates it is what comes after.
It is not at all a new observation that the Avengers have basically become Team America. Their detatched lives where they never interact with anyone not also a superhero, a love interest or an employee while they appoint themselves judge, jury and executioner of the entire earth would be such a great parody if it were made with anything other than corporate cynicism.
It's interesting to me that Sam Raimi is both a friend of, and sometime collaborator with, the Coen Brothers. They also spend a lot of time making the ordinary, background folks in their films feel like they have full lives and personalities outside of the narrative. Virtually every one of their films has a standout moment from a minor character who's only in one scene.
Without fail, Sam Raimi's Spider-man movies make me emotional. They were my favourite superhero movies as a kid and they have continued to be some of my favs. They captured a lot of the hope and some of the essence of why I like the genre. Which is why I feel some fatigue beginning with the MCU. But it still has its moments. For example, in the final episode of Falcon and Winter Soldier when Sam puts on the new suit and actually begins to save people.
Excellent video - and Spider-Man 2 is likewise my favourite superhero movie, a modern take on It’s A Wonderful Life (coming 10 years after Muriel’s Wedding inverted the basic plot of It’s A Wonderful Life). The people on the train are essentially the same people who save George at the end of IAWL.
The citizens of NYC are as integral to a good Spider-Man story as ol' webhead himself. The JMS run on the comic from the early 2000's does an amazing (yes pun) job of that. One thing i feel the Garfield and Holland films lacked was some more inclusion of the everyday New Yorkers that populate spidey's hometown. The Raimi films deffo have that in spades, even if it's subtle things like the pedestrians who provide background gags
I don't feel like the Garfield films do quit as good a job as the raimi films. But I think by and large the two ask films handle civilians better than the Holland ones. At least in asm 2 we get stuff like him interacting with the little kid.
Honestly I have issues with the watts trilogy but that sequence where he is just interacting with random people on the street is not one of them. Very well done sequence.
Another underrated character in Homecoming was the “Yeah Spider-Man!” Guy. Just in one second, this goofy guy cheers for Spider-Man and it’s memorable.
I can remember so many moments from the Raimi Spider-Man films perfectly. I'll be damned if anything really sticks with me from any of the MCU movies. Uh, maybe that umbrella thing from GotG2.
I just wanna say glad to have you back. You're one of the few video essayists I still watch. Also your production value was amazing in this video. Everything about your filmmaking has improved since you shot the movie. Very few people on this channel impress me with this kind of cinematic polish but you take the cake. Hats off to you and your crew.
I say all the time that Spider-Man 2 is the greatest super hero movie ever made, and my buddy and I make that exact same Vindicated joke as much as possible. You doing both, within about 20 seconds of each other, blew my mind. I think I’m supposed to be your bestie, Patrick.
Star Wars (at least the original trilogy) has a similar secret ingredient. From the denizens of the cantina to the other pilots making the run on the death star, the galaxy feels like there is more happening off screen. I contrast this with Star Trek where the only people that matter are the members of the main cast.
I recently rewatched the FIRST season of the next generation, and it felt shockingly different, like a much bigger world. Really too bad the rest of the series didn't have that perspective
I've always said, the most important character that elevates the Raimi trilogy over all other Spider-Man films since, is the city of New York. That's who Spider-Man has always existed for, and his relationship to his community is among the most compelling things about him. That's why the Daily Bugle is such a significant component of his narratives, because it shows the complications and misunderstandings at play in that relationship, as someone tries to twist him and make an enemy of him to the people he loves and protects. But in Raimi's trilogy (especially the first two), the most memorable and triumphant scenes are when New York teams up to save/help Spider-Man against the bad guys. It establishes what's at stake, and who the villain is truly against. The fight scenes might be 1-on-1, but the villain is really the enemy of New York, the people Spider-Man loves and protects. The subsequent Spider-Man films (even the best of them) lacked that critical relationship, and didn't make a character of New York, so there wasn't a relationship to establish the weight of anything going on. It was always either personal or global in scale. (side note, the closest they got was in Homecoming, with the montage of him doing nice things for people around town, and it remains my favorite part of the film. that one guy yelling for Spider-Man to do a flip always sells)
I think the closest any recent superhero film has gotten to that human connection I Spider-man Into the Spider-Verse. It's not quite the same as the Raimi films, but the fact that I can remember the teacher, the school security guard, the bagel lady and more than a few citizens is closer to it than anything in the MCU right now
My favorites are the chef who simply drops the check with an unamused face before leaving the screen and the guy explaining the metaphor for anyone being Spider-Man. Or even that kid looking at the snowman face.
I could never really put my finger on why the MCU spideys were dissappointing despite being so genuinely enjoyable and seemingly checking all the character beat and action boxes. Well ya nailed it! Maybe you're as clever as you think you are! ;-}
This essay helped to crystallize one of my ongoing gripes with a lot of contemporary comics storytelling. So much of it is superheroes ONLY interacting with their neighbours in the 'cape and tights' gated community. One thing that both Superman and Spider-Man have in common is an extensive supporting cast of "ordinary people", but look at the X-men, the Avengers (once you get past Jarvis, it starts to thin out REAL fast), Green Lantern, etc... The Goblin's whole screed on the rooftop was very much mired in Randian Objectivism. Why should exceptional people be dragged down by the petty problems and concerns of the great mass of 'ordinary folks'? And it's a good basis for a bad guy, but what about good guys? In 'The Incredibles', Mister Incredible laments, "Why can't people just STAY saved?" as though helping people is a terrible burden. Most of the humans in 'The Incredibles' are petty, grotesque caricatures who want nothing more than to drag the heroes down to their level. The big difference between Christopher Reeve's Superman and Henry Cavill's is the degree to which one is driven to help their fellow human while the other is here to act as a beacon to stupid, childlike humanity, and try and show them a better way even though it's an onerous burden. It's the whole reason why so many modern comics are tied up in events where superheroes fight other superheroes over stupid philosophical differences.
I think you really explained to me why I could never get into the MCU when it started out. Raimi's Spiderman movies were relatable because their foundation was built on ordinary people. The MCU did away with that almost entirely and the result just feels hollow in comparison.
Mmmm, now that you mention it, maybe that's why my favorite movie in the MCU (tier one, at least) is the first half of Captain America. Even if it's military and such, Steve is just a regular guy trying to do "a" right thing for other regular people even if they wash away the crude of the situation (which is fine by me, it's not that kind of movie). Even the military and scientist are pretty ordinary in suits and coats so that when Steve is recuing the to be howling commandos it still feels like him saving people. Following on this thought, most of his struggle is relatable and, when it comes to getting his powers, at least he achievesthrough his actual, "regular", superpower: his heart. Another scientist gives him the serum but it's his personality (and incredible luck) what gets him there. It still plays with the theme and it's more in line with the Stan Lee approach of "people with powers of gods"
@@jabarak1 And I will let people like those for their own reasons, and I did enjoy Guardians 1 when it came out, but the rest of the MCU that I saw was such a let down that I couldn't care to revisit them.
@@jabarak1 As much as Tony Stark is a rich dude and super-intelligent, he's foremost an engineer who's happiest with grease on his hands and something constructive to do. The vices are just a distraction; what do we see him doing when he has spare time? Tinkering with his car in his garage with his radio blasting.
@@ChallengeIdeas Which is an aspect I wish they would be back. So many times he has a new gadget that was built off screen or before the movie started.
Somehow as an aspiring writer I hadn’t thought of this part of this trilogy being missing from current superhero movies. Yet without realising while writing my own version of a Batman comic I did the same thing myself. Even as I don’t love the raimi trilogy as much as I liked them as a kid and this is still inspiring me just very cool to think about.
I expected there to be a comparison to Watchmen, since that is a comic about superheroes where at the end (SPOILER ALERT) a huge chunk of New York is destroyed by the villain and the author invested much energy in making the non-supers have a life of their own and right before the attack they gathered together to stop a street brawl, to show the spirit of New York. And how the film adaptation largely ignored that aspect, and minimized or removed all the non-supers' roles.
I was obsessed with the first Spider-Man as a kid. Saw it 3 times in theaters I think. And whenever I think of this movie I remember during that third time seeing when Willem Defoe first showed up I stood up and yelled “don’t trust him Spider-Man! He’s the green goblin.”
One of my major criticisms of the modern superhero films, the MCU in particular, is that I don't feel any connection between the normal, common person and the superhero. You very rarely see the reactions of random people. This is something that creates problems. For example... Why is Ms Marvel a fan of Captain Marvel? Obviously, the answer is because she is one in the comics, but in the MCU it makes absolutely no sense. Regardless of what you think of Captain Marvel as both a character and as a film, she has never interacted with normal people or even been seen by them - I don't think. She is always on another planet, and when she is on Earth, she is in a place where no members of the public are (and for just a short time). It makes sense for there to be young kids in the Spider-Man films to love Spider-Man, but it makes no sense for a young kid to love Captain Marvel in the MCU.
I really enjoyed this video and your going in-depth about the everyday man and ordinary people seen in the Sam Raimi Trilogy. Of course, I'm a huge fan of Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy and believe them to be the best Spider-Man movies ever made and will watch any video on them. I just came across your video just now on my recommendations and had the time of my life with this. In fact from all the videos I've seen discussing this trilogy, not once have I heard anyone mention the NY citizens and how Raimi uses them in the trilogy which is very refreshing and eye-opening to say the least that makes the movies even more better
Dashboard confessional drop from Spider-Man 2 soundtrack! I respect your opinion; I believe that the scene between Goblin and Spidey was fantastic on the roof. Showed that a scene between two masked figures isn't out of the realm of possibility. We can keep masks on and not be taken out of the film, plus Dafoe chomping on that scenery.
I also, felt vindicated. I've grew up with these movies and I re-watched the series recently, and it cemented to me that it wasn't just nostalgia glasses. Great video and thanks for pointing out how special it was to actually care about the bystanders the heroes save. In the MCU the heroes sit in a pent house. the elite of the elite. They are the ubermensch that we peons couldn't comprehend or understand why they bend down to help us. DCU just exasperates this and the stakes get higher because few thousand deaths are nothing if they are just faceless numbers. The Boys was a smart critique of this.
Few movies fill me with the feelings these movies give me. Lotr trilogy, Raimi Spidey, just the welling in your heart that breaks through all the layers of cynicism and grim grit that is reality. It's god damn hope. These movies are full of hope and Raimi perfectly understands that emotion, which makes sense with his film background
I love the detail that Toby's spider man is just a bit faster, a bit more agile, bit MORE Spiderman. When he shows up ajd him and Andrew have their little fight, he is able to web sling just a moment quicker. Implying the past 15 or whatever years of our time, has been being Spiderman that whole time and at this point, has reached a level where this stuff is beyond muscle memory or skill. It's just existence
Something I just realized. Mr. Ditkovitch, obviously named after Spider-Man co-creator Steve Ditko, could be seen as an objectivist (much like Ditko was himself). He is narrowly focused on "RENT!" and basically abuses Peter because he's not getting paid said rent.
Which sucks because the whole reason i think a lot of people connect with these characters is that they are regular people that experience day to day struggles exaggerated in an operatic fashion. As Grant Morrison put it, Superman walks his dog too...he just happens to do it on the moon.
The disappearance of side characters from movies is a function of budget. Cutting roles to cut corners. If they don't talk, you don't have to pay them as much as you would if someone has a line of dialogue. Heck, it costs more to have someone show their face because now they're a "featured extra." You see this in TV and movies all the time where there'll be people who never say anything even though they're part of the main friend group of the lead character, for example.
It's super cool that he does! But on the other hand, I really recommend you check out Night of the Coconut! It was a really fun ride, and the whole team delivers!
It kinda feels like from the intro that Patrick and Co. would rather transition to making films full time, and that Patrick is a little burned out on making these film commentary videos. On the other hand, if this is what his commentary work is like when he's phoning it in, it's just another demonstration of his brilliance. Top notch work, and a great reminder to me in my own work how important it is for every character to matter, especially in genre stories with "special" characters. There's nothing that will strip away a character's specialness than to surround them exclusively with other similarly special characters, and remove everyone else. It happens in superhero media all the time, when the ordinary, non-power characters stop mattering, or else they all get powers.
Even with the deficencies of the MCU environments, I have come to realize that, even when directed by James Gunn, there is no place in the past decade's DC films that I would like to visit, let alone live. I started reading comics more than 5 decades ago and am well aware of vagarities of different comics companies' universes - maybe DC's fictional cities and even whole countries throughout it's long history have had a knock-on effect to the believeability of the characters themselves in the comics; but in the movies, good actors have removed that criticism, and replaced it with a strange distaste for the settings. I noticed it first while watching Shazam - it felt like an after school special from the seventies. That's when I realized there wasn't a single recent depiction of Gotham, Metropolis, Central or Fawcett cities (even Smallville, how do you mess up idyllic small town America?) that I'd prefer to even a layover in Yuma California.
Even though I had predicted you'd bring up the Chocolate Cake Scene, I'm very happy you did. Its such a wonderful moment that was crucial in the grand thesis of Spider-Man 2.
THANK YOU! I felt like I was the only one who adored the cake scene with the neighbor and how the MCU feels so empty in comparison. Raimi’s movies were about the people while the MCU is all about the patricians
My favorite modern comics example of depicting a city filled with ordinary people that impact a hero is G. Willow Wilson’s Ms. Marvel run. I just love how central Jersey City and all its inhabitants are to Kamala’s story and her world feels richer for it
22:05 The Flash suffered from exactly this problem. It started with Barry being The Flash with his team of regular people contributing their expertise to Scooby Doo this shit. By the time you get to like season four or five, literally everybody is a superhero. Cisco is a superhero. Caitlin is a superhero. I'm pretty sure even Iris has powers, or at least did at one point. It makes the whole thing cartoonish. Honorable mention for the Arrowverse goes to Arrow itself, where every problem our heroes face happen to be exactly like a situation Oliver dealt with during his time marooned on an island. Except half the time he wasn't marooned on the island but got out somehow, traveled the globe, had an adventure, and then ended up back on the same island so the pilot could happen.
This is a problem in the comics too. Not just Flash or Spidey comics, all Big Two comics. When you have a property running monthly for 5, 6, 7, 8 decades, maybe across multiple titles, eventually every idea gets thrown at the wall, including "let's make the non-supers, super".
The only “Everyman” the mcu has focused on in my memory was Ashley Johnson in The Avengers. She was used as a sort of focal point representing the civilians. The camera followed her, used her face to show the collective terror, and throughout the invasion of New York showed how she went from place to place, from her job to being attacked and saved to a newsreel at the end thanking Cap for saving her life. It was a nice way to add that “there are real people here” element without taking up too much of a story that isn’t about the everyman.
i could remember at least 15 different random civilians from that trilogy alone, people that get no more than a couple shots in the movie, maybe one line of dialogue, but thats ALL YOU NEED, something modern superhero films lack, badly, tired of cgi environments that feel more like an arena to fight in that a place people use every day and need saving in
A thing that always gets me about the bridge scene is that without the help, Spidey actually fails. He can't put the trolley of kids down or fight back against the goblin. He's stuck and he doesn't have a plan. Instead of him digging deep and using his own strength and skill, e get something rarer, and more meaningful: a collective victory. The tugboat workers and people on the bridge couldn't do it without Spidey, but he couldn't do it without them either.
anyway. Volunteer in your community. It's always worth it
Big up, wonderful message.
It also proves the green goblin wrong when he said that the people in the city would hate him.
I feel the need to share the fact that the Nostalgia Critic specifically listed the side characters and extras as among the things he hated most in the Rami movies in a video almost 10 years ago, and I'm just so glad I've found new RUclips channels that comedically analyze media since then. This was cathartic.
His opinions regarding Spider-Man movies in general, though having some good points here and there, are pretty much bullshit.
@@HMNCLunarI remember when he shared Cosmonaut's video about Raimi's trilogy saying "See? See guys I was right!!" While ignoring that his review of the Andrew Garfield movies was way harsher
He is such a crappy reviewer and person in general.
Did he? I specifically remembered him saying in his review of Spider-Man 2 that to side characters were his favorite, especially Ursula and Mr Ditkovich.
@@osmanyousif7849guess his viewpoint changed
One of my favorite moments in Spider Man 3 is when Peter says “You’ll get your rent when you fix this damn door!”, and Mr. Ditkovitch says “He is a good boy, he must be in some kind of trouble.” In a way that shows he genuinely cares about Peter, even under all that greedy exterior.
And yes! I was right about the segment covering 9/11 before it came out! Lindsay Ellis’s video about 9/11 in media came in clutch!
YES! Would've been so easy to make Diktovitch react in his typical grumpiness. Instead, humanity leaks through.
Good point! Almost every character in his Spider-Man movies has some redeeming trait or underlying decency - even Norman Osborne, Otto Ocatvius and Flint Marko. Or Jonah Jameson refusing to give up info about Spider-Man to the Goblin. People can be bad, do bad things, but they are rarely 1-dimensional. Except the bullies funnily enough. Flash Thompson and Eddie Brock.
@@MariaVosa but even Flash Thompson shows up at Harry’s funeral in SM3, showing there’s human decency and respect in spite of his previous history with both Peter and Harry. Eddie is the only one who’s an irredeemable asshat.
@@Chenso2099 You are right about Flash, I had forgotten that part. I'm sure Eddie is the only completely irredeemaböe character because the studio forced Raimi to include him ;)
I dunno, humanizing landlords seems like a bad precedent to set...
Raimi's Spiderman had a lot of scenes filmed on location in New York, whereas the MCU Spiderman movies (and Raimi's Multiverse of Madness) were filmed behind green screens in Atlanta, which contributes to that "empty" feeling.
People mocked George Lucas for using green screen all the time for the prequels. Then Hollywood realized "Holy shit......THIS WILL SAVE US MONEY!" and now his approach is becoming the default.
@@galactic85 saving money is nice and all but the director not having to move his arse out of his seat is pretty great too. Now the coffee doesn't get spilled that easily anymore.
To be fair, Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy didn't have a worldwide pandemic to deal with. I remember watching Raimi's audio commentary for Multiverse of Madness, and he kept talking about things he wanted to do that were impossible due to COVID restrictions at the time. But I can see what you're talking about.
@@Padlock_Steve those animators need so much help
@@galactic85 George Lucas at least has the excuse of need alien/futuristic environments, but New York is right there
Sam Raimi really was the perfect guy to bring Spidey to the big screen for the first time. He came from humble beginnings, was an outsider within the Hollywood system for many years, and is completely sincere and honest in his goal to entertain his audience... He is the Peter Parker of movie directors.
Be f CF cfdgsdy FF FTC XX XD the SAME TT
And is the Spider-Man fan of all Spider-Man fans alongside Stan Lee.
Sincerity is a really great description of Raimi - it shines through his films, whatever the genre.
Not taking anything from Raimi but wasn't he... accomodated, let's say? I thought his parents, even if not straight out millionaires, were relatevely wealthy.
@@VICTORZITOSS I think 'relatively wealthy' equals 'humble beginnings'.
The "you mess with one of us you mess with *all* of us" scene makes me tear up, even now as an adult, and even out of context from the rest of the film. As does the scene on the train from the second film.
Part of that is due to having seen them as a kid, and having an emotional memory of them, but part of it is down to how sincere they were. Those moments really stuck with me because they didn't have a snarky, self aware, "well that happened" type of attitude.
Yes! And it was extra poignant as we had just come through 9/11 when it hit theaters.
Nowadays it's "you come from Mexico and take tax money from one of us, you take tax money from ALL of us!"
This has regularly been my main problem with the MCU films, great as the often are in many ways. The motivations for the superhero protagonists have increasingly been each other rather than the people and communities around them. This was especially egregious in Infinity War and Endgame, where they were explitly written as primarily trying to save each other - with the rest of the world being mostly an implicit concern. If they could connect more with 'ordinary' people, it would honestly help so much with engagement and emotional investment.
Nah the explict goal was to save the world.
And this is why I loved No Way Home, not because of it's reasonable nostalgia (that's my opinion, stfu) but the way they softly remade MCU Spider-Man by pushing him back to his roots at the last minutes of the film.
@@somecallmejeremy That makes sense - and I wouldn't blame you for having a chunk of nostalgia at seeing all those faces from the past again, as I have some fairly potent early to mid 00s memories associated with those films!
this rings so true
@@wyndgrove9452 Good to know. The reason why I said the nostalgia's reasonable is because why it's also to pump up the box office, it also had a purpose of teaching Tom's Spider-Man to become the Spider-Man that we all know, hence becoming that character in the end, and I think it works.
Raimi gets that an important factor of superhero comics is seeing the random passer-by’s perspective. I love all the cutaways in Spider-Man 1-3 to random citizens, to the point they have the best most iconic moments. Lucy Lawless saying “A guy with eight hands?…sounds hot” is burnt into my brain lol.
Kind of wild that we moved on from Channel Awesome-style video essays with character skits and increasingly complex lore only to circle back to it but with good writing and production talent.
As the saying goes, time is a flat circle.
I was just thinking about this
There even is an anthagonist played by the same person as the protagonist
Black guy! Woman! Get in here! Put on costumes! (screams and fires gun in the air)
Just goes to show that the issue wasn't the format, but the execution (and in some cases, the people behind it)
@@antisora13 thanks Zach
I love the MCU Spider-Man movies but always felt like the Raimi trilogy just had a more "homey" and comforting feel. I just chalked it up to my nostalgia vision but now that you brought it up this could be a big reason why
Those were more home than the "Home" movies.
I agree that the scenes with the landlord's daughter isn't a romantic subplot per se, but I always assumed she had a crush on him and she gave him the cake as an excuse to hang out with him.
It was definitely a "come-hither" cake that Pete didn't pick up on. 😄
@@matthewstarkie4254 because he's a nice guy (not a nice-guy mind you)
I would say Netflix's Daredevil is really good at showing everyday people as well. Like that prison guard in the pilot, Brett Mahoney, Father Paul Lantom, Claire Temple, Ray Nadeem, and many one-off characters. That show is very good at making you feel like you are on the streets with them.
Thank you I was just about to comment about Daredevil but then saw your comment
Jessica Jones and Luke Cage also featured some great interactions and scenes with bit characters.
I think you are correct but most of those characters qualify more as supporting characters rather than the kind of background characters patrick is talking about. Claire and ray especially play crucial roles on the plots of seaspns 1 and season 3. Season 3 is arguably just as much rats story as it is matt's story. I would say a better example is Mrs. Cardenas in season one, or the nurse that ben hrich interacts with in season 1 as he tries to care for his wife, or Blake tower from seasons 2 and 3.
Absolutely agree! The people of NYC feeling like real people with real lives in the Raimi films gives what happens to Spider-Man a real sense of stakes and purpose. The MCU films have such fantastical stakes, but those stakes never feel real because we never see the consequences of the villains or heroes actions contextualized in a grounded or meaningful way. I also think Raimi's cinematography, choreography, blocking, etc just look SOOOOO much better than the MCU stuff. Raimi's films look incredible and the action is so well filmed. They're just a cut above most of the MCU's photography.
Great video! The class struggle and the usage of "little people" really flew over my head when I originally watched these movies. Which is surprising, because as you pointed out, it really is the heart of the franchise.
It's the thing the MCU is lacking, actual heroics and the people. Spiderman is from the streets and that's where he should stay
YES! THANK YOU! THESE SIDE CHARACTERS ARE GREAT! I remember watching a certain critic as a child and hearing him complain about all the "pointless side characters" and thinking "yeah those guys are pointless." Now that im older I'm like "hey wait a minute...all those characters are great and the fact that I remember ALL OF THEM is pretty incredible." Raimi cast actors who took characters that easily could have been one note and elevated them into ones that felt a little more real. That should be PRAISED. I would rather have a superhero movie where every small character is memorable than a movie where civilians who aren't directly connected to the protagonist are basically nonexistent or are treated as cannon foder for the main villain.
Spider-Man has always been the most relatable superhero. None of know what it's like to be billionaires like Bruce Wayne or Tony Stark. But most of us know what it's like to work terrible service jobs, be broke, and struggle with rent.
One of the problems the MCU has created for paying attention to members of the public is, they've trained audiences to search for easter eggs. Just about any person given a speaking line or extra camera time is going to be speculated to be some reference to the comics or a set-up for the next big reveal. Because of this, it becomes difficult to feature people in the MCU films that aren't for fanservice.
I will never get enough of Raimi's Spider-Man ... And also, I always feel that place/environment in Spiderman Marvel Trilogy felt not real at all. At first I always thought thats due to the place itself is not real, but CGI generated,but after watching this video you definitely answer of why I feel like that. Raimi intricately build new york and it people as the main character beside peter and his villain...
Also when you live in Atlanta for a few years, you really develop an eye for when they use it while passing it off as another city.
I'm in my mid-thirties, grew up watching the movies, have seen Spiderman 2 numerous times, and yet every time I watch the mask-off part of the train scene I have to turn away from my wife so she can't see I'm like two steps from being a blubbery mess. The scene hits me every time.
100% agreed. Raimi's Spider-Man films feel so timeless and universal that it manages to easily strike all of the right chords and tug at all the right heart strings. It's the same feeling I get watching Lord of the Rings that I didn't get from the Hobbit (and certainly not Rings of Power).
You should get more comfortable showing your wife your emotions
Same. I remember even at the time it got me...I was thinking when the mask came off 'Oh! So, they know who he is now?! That can't be good!' Then what happens? The people just gently catch him when he nearly falls and carry him safely into the train and actually look after him and compare him to their own families...really affecting and for me at the time totally unexpected...in a good way.
Sounds like an insecure marriage
@@th3giv3r lol
It makes me so happy to know someone else has been quoting Peter’s teacher saying “I kid you not” for as long as I have
Preaching to the choir, Patrick. That seen in the deli in Homecoming, always reminded me of the flower shop scene from the room. Hi doggie
SO many fantastic comedians in these movies, a wise decision to include them, as it adds so much texture to the films. Folks that didn't get a mention in this video: Donnell Rawlings, Aasif Mandvi & Joey Diaz.
The train sequence is the best action sequence in super hero movies. Everything there is perfect: the stakes getting bigger, as Spidey try to fight Doc Ock, help civilians in the middle of the caos, and stop the train. The end with everyone helping him is the perfect way to end.
OSP recently did a pair of podcasts about Superman. One focused on media that satirizes him and the other focuses on Superman preventing any collateral damage. They talked about how modern superhero movies "graduate" from saving ordinary citizens to stopping a big-bad.
Sam Raimi's extras are very memorable, good to see that someone finally made a video about it. 😀
Raimi and his buddies, the Coens are both masters of fleshing out their worlds via a bunch of colorful scene stealing extras. And the Spidey trilogy is one of the best examples on Raimi’s end. Really the definition of “there are no small parts.”. It’s a huge reason why they’re my favorite filmmakers tbh.
It's a Midwestern thing,
I rewatched the Spider-Man movies a week ago incidentally. I really enjoyed them after not seeing them since I was kid. I also noticed how it feels like a much more lived in than the MCU movies. Also even the little Easter eggs like Dr. Conners feel a lot less shoe horned in.
Totally! I feel like dr Connors works better because raimi wasn't necessarily laying threads for future films. With the mcu the cameos nowadays all of them are basically ads for other movies or shows you have to watch or their presence could be cut from the story without changing much of anything. With characters like dr Connors it's just the film makers going "hey...here is an established spider-man character from the source material. Would he be off good use for this specific story or scene? Maybe we can turn him into the lizard someday but theres no guarantee we'll be able to do that. Lets just out him in and see what happens down the line! He works fine enoigh on his own." Nowadays if raimi was making a movie like Spider-man 2 the school doctor that Peter goes to visit in the second act would have to be doctor Strange or something.
The Raimi films look INCREDIBLE compared with the MCU ones. The colours and movement 🤯
Yes, yes, yes, yes on all points. And you made me realize that this approach is also a big reason the Richard Donner Superman still remains so charming if technically less sophisticated (Just re-watch the helicopter rescue scene and all the pieces you outlined are in place). Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure Raimi handles his background characters similarly in "Darkman".
your gosh darn right
Hold on, I had to go back and re-watch that moment where Dave is reacting to Patrick's upload. The way that the diegetic notification "ding" sound merged with the optimistic, curious musical score made my jaw drop when I noticed. If that's Brian Metolius' doing, he's a genius. Also, this made me want a jelly donut.
You know, I'm something of a scientist myself.
@@BrianMetolius Be very proud of yourself for both that clever bit of scoring, and that reply. I hope you have a lovely day!
@@JulesStarn same to you :)
@@BrianMetolius Also, props on referencing Danny Elfman's Peter Parker Theme at 35:38
Glockenspiel! 💜
Honestly, I think the popularity of the MCU is more fragile than it might seem right now, and I think the lack of care and attention given to regular people is a big part of why. The entire time I was watching No Way Home, I couldn't get past how empty and depopulated the movie felt, and in general, it's part of the larger, increasingly obvious problem of the MCU not being about anything real, not even anything as simple as the value of using one's talents to help other people.
I think the reason why is because Disney has a near monopoly on blockbuster IP. The one major competitor, DCEU has been horribly mishandled and is now in the hands of a company that seems like it has no idea what its doing.
I think it's something The Avengers got right that has been neglected since
@@reubenm.d.5218 It was still intact in Age of Ultron and Civil War, and the Home trilogy.
@@somecallmejeremy Civil War seemed like the beginning of the end to me, tbh. The main conflict started with the Avengers seeing how they impact everyday people, then slowly devolved into interpersonal drama.
@@adora_was_taken Civil War's a great movie though. I'd love to hear your opinion on it, especially the final battle when Tony discovered Bucky killed his parents and Steve kept that secret for years.
I just want to say that the watching guides are an amazing idea. I had already seen all four suggested Spiderman movies, but they got me to watch 25th Hour for the first time last weekend. Not only did they introduce me to a fantastic movie (seriously though, that last 10 minutes made me cry), but they also deepened my appreciation and understanding of this video.
Remember the New York battle sequence in the first Avengers movie? There was supposed to be this small narrative thread, showing the battle from the perspective of an ordinary waitress, working in a cafe in the middle of the combat zone. She was supposed to be rescued by Captain America, and there were a few shots after that where she's trying to make her way to safety while the Avengers and the Chitauri and the police are clashing all around her.
That waitress' shots were cut from the final theatrical release, but were included in the deleted scenes for the DVD. The MCU has been cutting out the normal people, right from the beginning.
Last couple of times I watched Spider-man 2 that train scene's ending had me near to tears. It's just perfect. Proper good feels moment. Don't think anything has come close to that since in any superhero film.
Logan hits hard, but for different reasons.
Glad I found your comment, I wanted to say the same thing. The bridge sequence is great for the way he stops the train, but what really elevates it is what comes after.
Okay, the "Vindicated" joke got me. And made me feel super old, I used to rock out to that soundtrack in my old car in college. 🤦
Every Scene with J. K. Simmons.
Easy.
Honorable mention goes to Hoffman. Every time I watch these I like Hoffman more and more.
Ms brant! Yes? Get me a violin. *scoffs*
“I’ll give you $150.”
“300”
“That’s outrageous….done.”
You're gash darn right
It is not at all a new observation that the Avengers have basically become Team America. Their detatched lives where they never interact with anyone not also a superhero, a love interest or an employee while they appoint themselves judge, jury and executioner of the entire earth would be such a great parody if it were made with anything other than corporate cynicism.
It's interesting to me that Sam Raimi is both a friend of, and sometime collaborator with, the Coen Brothers. They also spend a lot of time making the ordinary, background folks in their films feel like they have full lives and personalities outside of the narrative. Virtually every one of their films has a standout moment from a minor character who's only in one scene.
Without fail, Sam Raimi's Spider-man movies make me emotional. They were my favourite superhero movies as a kid and they have continued to be some of my favs. They captured a lot of the hope and some of the essence of why I like the genre. Which is why I feel some fatigue beginning with the MCU. But it still has its moments. For example, in the final episode of Falcon and Winter Soldier when Sam puts on the new suit and actually begins to save people.
Excellent video - and Spider-Man 2 is likewise my favourite superhero movie, a modern take on It’s A Wonderful Life (coming 10 years after Muriel’s Wedding inverted the basic plot of It’s A Wonderful Life). The people on the train are essentially the same people who save George at the end of IAWL.
Raimis tone IS Spiderman- the operatic score, the side characters, the emotional struggle, the tragic villains, its all there.
The citizens of NYC are as integral to a good Spider-Man story as ol' webhead himself.
The JMS run on the comic from the early 2000's does an amazing (yes pun) job of that.
One thing i feel the Garfield and Holland films lacked was some more inclusion of the everyday New Yorkers that populate spidey's hometown.
The Raimi films deffo have that in spades, even if it's subtle things like the pedestrians who provide background gags
I don't feel like the Garfield films do quit as good a job as the raimi films. But I think by and large the two ask films handle civilians better than the Holland ones. At least in asm 2 we get stuff like him interacting with the little kid.
So true about the pedestrians. My favorite little pedestrian gag is the “he stole that guy’s pizza!” From Spider-Man 2.
*laughs evilly staring at my ASM2 sequel fics that try to shove in more of those everyday people stuff*
Spider-Man 2, in my opinion, is still the peak of the comic book/superhero film genre
I would have agreed, but Into the Spider-Verse exists.
@@benwasserman8223 and it's inferior
Spider-man 2 and Spider-man-verse!
I agree. It’s also my favorite film period (superhero or not)
I agree it's still my favorite Spider-Man movie
A week or so ago, I said that the "Do a flip!" scene from Homecoming was the best moment in the entire MCU. I feel vindicated by this video.
I see what you did there.
Honestly I have issues with the watts trilogy but that sequence where he is just interacting with random people on the street is not one of them. Very well done sequence.
@@galactic85 Right, such a Spider-Man-y scene.
Another underrated character in Homecoming was the “Yeah Spider-Man!” Guy.
Just in one second, this goofy guy cheers for Spider-Man and it’s memorable.
He's right, Raini has a grasp on visualisation and on people we don't normally see
Your gosh darn right
I can remember so many moments from the Raimi Spider-Man films perfectly. I'll be damned if anything really sticks with me from any of the MCU movies. Uh, maybe that umbrella thing from GotG2.
I just wanna say glad to have you back. You're one of the few video essayists I still watch. Also your production value was amazing in this video. Everything about your filmmaking has improved since you shot the movie. Very few people on this channel impress me with this kind of cinematic polish but you take the cake. Hats off to you and your crew.
I say all the time that Spider-Man 2 is the greatest super hero movie ever made, and my buddy and I make that exact same Vindicated joke as much as possible. You doing both, within about 20 seconds of each other, blew my mind. I think I’m supposed to be your bestie, Patrick.
Star Wars (at least the original trilogy) has a similar secret ingredient. From the denizens of the cantina to the other pilots making the run on the death star, the galaxy feels like there is more happening off screen. I contrast this with Star Trek where the only people that matter are the members of the main cast.
I recently rewatched the FIRST season of the next generation, and it felt shockingly different, like a much bigger world. Really too bad the rest of the series didn't have that perspective
I've always said, the most important character that elevates the Raimi trilogy over all other Spider-Man films since, is the city of New York. That's who Spider-Man has always existed for, and his relationship to his community is among the most compelling things about him. That's why the Daily Bugle is such a significant component of his narratives, because it shows the complications and misunderstandings at play in that relationship, as someone tries to twist him and make an enemy of him to the people he loves and protects. But in Raimi's trilogy (especially the first two), the most memorable and triumphant scenes are when New York teams up to save/help Spider-Man against the bad guys. It establishes what's at stake, and who the villain is truly against. The fight scenes might be 1-on-1, but the villain is really the enemy of New York, the people Spider-Man loves and protects.
The subsequent Spider-Man films (even the best of them) lacked that critical relationship, and didn't make a character of New York, so there wasn't a relationship to establish the weight of anything going on. It was always either personal or global in scale. (side note, the closest they got was in Homecoming, with the montage of him doing nice things for people around town, and it remains my favorite part of the film. that one guy yelling for Spider-Man to do a flip always sells)
I think the closest any recent superhero film has gotten to that human connection I Spider-man Into the Spider-Verse. It's not quite the same as the Raimi films, but the fact that I can remember the teacher, the school security guard, the bagel lady and more than a few citizens is closer to it than anything in the MCU right now
My favorites are the chef who simply drops the check with an unamused face before leaving the screen and the guy explaining the metaphor for anyone being Spider-Man. Or even that kid looking at the snowman face.
I could never really put my finger on why the MCU spideys were dissappointing despite being so genuinely enjoyable and seemingly checking all the character beat and action boxes. Well ya nailed it! Maybe you're as clever as you think you are! ;-}
Thing i love about Sam Raimi spiderman was even background characters has character into it, being a New Yorker.
I think this is your best video to date! Love a deep dive that makes me think about something I love in a new way! Thanks!
This essay helped to crystallize one of my ongoing gripes with a lot of contemporary comics storytelling.
So much of it is superheroes ONLY interacting with their neighbours in the 'cape and tights' gated community. One thing that both Superman and Spider-Man have in common is an extensive supporting cast of "ordinary people", but look at the X-men, the Avengers (once you get past Jarvis, it starts to thin out REAL fast), Green Lantern, etc...
The Goblin's whole screed on the rooftop was very much mired in Randian Objectivism. Why should exceptional people be dragged down by the petty problems and concerns of the great mass of 'ordinary folks'? And it's a good basis for a bad guy, but what about good guys?
In 'The Incredibles', Mister Incredible laments, "Why can't people just STAY saved?" as though helping people is a terrible burden. Most of the humans in 'The Incredibles' are petty, grotesque caricatures who want nothing more than to drag the heroes down to their level.
The big difference between Christopher Reeve's Superman and Henry Cavill's is the degree to which one is driven to help their fellow human while the other is here to act as a beacon to stupid, childlike humanity, and try and show them a better way even though it's an onerous burden.
It's the whole reason why so many modern comics are tied up in events where superheroes fight other superheroes over stupid philosophical differences.
I think you really explained to me why I could never get into the MCU when it started out. Raimi's Spiderman movies were relatable because their foundation was built on ordinary people. The MCU did away with that almost entirely and the result just feels hollow in comparison.
Mmmm, now that you mention it, maybe that's why my favorite movie in the MCU (tier one, at least) is the first half of Captain America. Even if it's military and such, Steve is just a regular guy trying to do "a" right thing for other regular people even if they wash away the crude of the situation (which is fine by me, it's not that kind of movie).
Even the military and scientist are pretty ordinary in suits and coats so that when Steve is recuing the to be howling commandos it still feels like him saving people.
Following on this thought, most of his struggle is relatable and, when it comes to getting his powers, at least he achievesthrough his actual, "regular", superpower: his heart. Another scientist gives him the serum but it's his personality (and incredible luck) what gets him there. It still plays with the theme and it's more in line with the Stan Lee approach of "people with powers of gods"
You didn't like Ironman or GOTG? Those movies didn't check those boxes, but they were great for their own reasons, IMO.
@@jabarak1 And I will let people like those for their own reasons, and I did enjoy Guardians 1 when it came out, but the rest of the MCU that I saw was such a let down that I couldn't care to revisit them.
@@jabarak1 As much as Tony Stark is a rich dude and super-intelligent, he's foremost an engineer who's happiest with grease on his hands and something constructive to do. The vices are just a distraction; what do we see him doing when he has spare time? Tinkering with his car in his garage with his radio blasting.
@@ChallengeIdeas Which is an aspect I wish they would be back. So many times he has a new gadget that was built off screen or before the movie started.
The more I read/watch about Sam Raimi’s Spiderman the more I love it. Thanks for this video ❤️
Somehow as an aspiring writer I hadn’t thought of this part of this trilogy being missing from current superhero movies. Yet without realising while writing my own version of a Batman comic I did the same thing myself. Even as I don’t love the raimi trilogy as much as I liked them as a kid and this is still inspiring me just very cool to think about.
Absolutely fantastic, fantastic analysis. I really wish this would gain more traction so more people can appreciate these aspects in Raimi's trilogy
I expected there to be a comparison to Watchmen, since that is a comic about superheroes where at the end (SPOILER ALERT) a huge chunk of New York is destroyed by the villain and the author invested much energy in making the non-supers have a life of their own and right before the attack they gathered together to stop a street brawl, to show the spirit of New York. And how the film adaptation largely ignored that aspect, and minimized or removed all the non-supers' roles.
Well, his next video is the Snyder video...
“I’ve told this story so often, it might even be true” is such a banger line
The Spider-Man trilogy is really special to me. It was to me what Star Wars was to so many people, as is my understanding.
I was obsessed with the first Spider-Man as a kid. Saw it 3 times in theaters I think. And whenever I think of this movie I remember during that third time seeing when Willem Defoe first showed up I stood up and yelled “don’t trust him Spider-Man! He’s the green goblin.”
One of my major criticisms of the modern superhero films, the MCU in particular, is that I don't feel any connection between the normal, common person and the superhero.
You very rarely see the reactions of random people.
This is something that creates problems. For example...
Why is Ms Marvel a fan of Captain Marvel?
Obviously, the answer is because she is one in the comics, but in the MCU it makes absolutely no sense. Regardless of what you think of Captain Marvel as both a character and as a film, she has never interacted with normal people or even been seen by them - I don't think. She is always on another planet, and when she is on Earth, she is in a place where no members of the public are (and for just a short time).
It makes sense for there to be young kids in the Spider-Man films to love Spider-Man, but it makes no sense for a young kid to love Captain Marvel in the MCU.
Duely noted. I'm not sure there even are civilians in the MCU. At least not anymore. Just people who eventually scream and run away.
I really enjoyed this video and your going in-depth about the everyday man and ordinary people seen in the Sam Raimi Trilogy. Of course, I'm a huge fan of Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy and believe them to be the best Spider-Man movies ever made and will watch any video on them. I just came across your video just now on my recommendations and had the time of my life with this. In fact from all the videos I've seen discussing this trilogy, not once have I heard anyone mention the NY citizens and how Raimi uses them in the trilogy which is very refreshing and eye-opening to say the least that makes the movies even more better
Dashboard confessional drop from Spider-Man 2 soundtrack!
I respect your opinion; I believe that the scene between Goblin and Spidey was fantastic on the roof. Showed that a scene between two masked figures isn't out of the realm of possibility. We can keep masks on and not be taken out of the film, plus Dafoe chomping on that scenery.
I also, felt vindicated. I've grew up with these movies and I re-watched the series recently, and it cemented to me that it wasn't just nostalgia glasses. Great video and thanks for pointing out how special it was to actually care about the bystanders the heroes save. In the MCU the heroes sit in a pent house. the elite of the elite. They are the ubermensch that we peons couldn't comprehend or understand why they bend down to help us. DCU just exasperates this and the stakes get higher because few thousand deaths are nothing if they are just faceless numbers. The Boys was a smart critique of this.
Few movies fill me with the feelings these movies give me. Lotr trilogy, Raimi Spidey, just the welling in your heart that breaks through all the layers of cynicism and grim grit that is reality. It's god damn hope. These movies are full of hope and Raimi perfectly understands that emotion, which makes sense with his film background
Patrick is back to talk about the Sam Raimi Spider-Man Trilogy?! It definitely is Pizza Time!
I love the detail that Toby's spider man is just a bit faster, a bit more agile, bit MORE Spiderman. When he shows up ajd him and Andrew have their little fight, he is able to web sling just a moment quicker. Implying the past 15 or whatever years of our time, has been being Spiderman that whole time and at this point, has reached a level where this stuff is beyond muscle memory or skill. It's just existence
It helps that Tobey Spider-Man has webs that come out of his body instead of from something mechanical
Man, your energy and passion are always inspiring, if not downright moving. Thank you
Don't forget Mr. Ditkovich was going to be revealed as a retired Kraven in Spider-Man 4!
Something I just realized. Mr. Ditkovitch, obviously named after Spider-Man co-creator Steve Ditko, could be seen as an objectivist (much like Ditko was himself). He is narrowly focused on "RENT!" and basically abuses Peter because he's not getting paid said rent.
It's not just the MCU. Superhero fiction in general has just become very disinterested in regular people
Which sucks because the whole reason i think a lot of people connect with these characters is that they are regular people that experience day to day struggles exaggerated in an operatic fashion. As Grant Morrison put it, Superman walks his dog too...he just happens to do it on the moon.
The production quality on this is insane. Another job well done!
The "Vindicated" joke was just for me. Thank you.
The disappearance of side characters from movies is a function of budget. Cutting roles to cut corners. If they don't talk, you don't have to pay them as much as you would if someone has a line of dialogue. Heck, it costs more to have someone show their face because now they're a "featured extra." You see this in TV and movies all the time where there'll be people who never say anything even though they're part of the main friend group of the lead character, for example.
I would not be the superhero fan I am today without Sam Raimi,s Spider-man movies.
I was so glad that you included the Ursula scene... I thought there was more to Ursula that never got explored.
I like that he put where the essay starts because I really don't care about the narrative between videos, but his actual essays are so good
It's super cool that he does! But on the other hand, I really recommend you check out Night of the Coconut! It was a really fun ride, and the whole team delivers!
21:02 poor Ursula, what do you mean ‘not part of a romantic subplot’?
27:51 How did I not know James Cameron contributed to the script of Raimi's Spider-Man?
It kinda feels like from the intro that Patrick and Co. would rather transition to making films full time, and that Patrick is a little burned out on making these film commentary videos. On the other hand, if this is what his commentary work is like when he's phoning it in, it's just another demonstration of his brilliance. Top notch work, and a great reminder to me in my own work how important it is for every character to matter, especially in genre stories with "special" characters. There's nothing that will strip away a character's specialness than to surround them exclusively with other similarly special characters, and remove everyone else. It happens in superhero media all the time, when the ordinary, non-power characters stop mattering, or else they all get powers.
The real secret ingredient was the bomb-ass soundtrack with Nickelback screaming about flying eagles!!
Even with the deficencies of the MCU environments, I have come to realize that, even when directed by James Gunn, there is no place in the past decade's DC films that I would like to visit, let alone live. I started reading comics more than 5 decades ago and am well aware of vagarities of different comics companies' universes - maybe DC's fictional cities and even whole countries throughout it's long history have had a knock-on effect to the believeability of the characters themselves in the comics; but in the movies, good actors have removed that criticism, and replaced it with a strange distaste for the settings. I noticed it first while watching Shazam - it felt like an after school special from the seventies. That's when I realized there wasn't a single recent depiction of Gotham, Metropolis, Central or Fawcett cities (even Smallville, how do you mess up idyllic small town America?) that I'd prefer to even a layover in Yuma California.
Even though I had predicted you'd bring up the Chocolate Cake Scene, I'm very happy you did. Its such a wonderful moment that was crucial in the grand thesis of Spider-Man 2.
Sam Raimi was the only director to put real New Yorkers in a Spiderman movie.
Best video essay I've seen in a while. Thanks Patrick!
He's Back!
THANK YOU! I felt like I was the only one who adored the cake scene with the neighbor and how the MCU feels so empty in comparison. Raimi’s movies were about the people while the MCU is all about the patricians
My favorite modern comics example of depicting a city filled with ordinary people that impact a hero is G. Willow Wilson’s Ms. Marvel run. I just love how central Jersey City and all its inhabitants are to Kamala’s story and her world feels richer for it
Yeah, they so refreshingly written and an absolute joy to read - managing to avoid the clichés that got me so bored with superhero comics in general.
I completely agree. Spiderman 2 isn't just my favorite superhero movie, I regularly tout it as one of my favorite movies regardless of genre.
22:05 The Flash suffered from exactly this problem. It started with Barry being The Flash with his team of regular people contributing their expertise to Scooby Doo this shit. By the time you get to like season four or five, literally everybody is a superhero. Cisco is a superhero. Caitlin is a superhero. I'm pretty sure even Iris has powers, or at least did at one point. It makes the whole thing cartoonish.
Honorable mention for the Arrowverse goes to Arrow itself, where every problem our heroes face happen to be exactly like a situation Oliver dealt with during his time marooned on an island. Except half the time he wasn't marooned on the island but got out somehow, traveled the globe, had an adventure, and then ended up back on the same island so the pilot could happen.
This is a problem in the comics too. Not just Flash or Spidey comics, all Big Two comics. When you have a property running monthly for 5, 6, 7, 8 decades, maybe across multiple titles, eventually every idea gets thrown at the wall, including "let's make the non-supers, super".
The only “Everyman” the mcu has focused on in my memory was Ashley Johnson in The Avengers. She was used as a sort of focal point representing the civilians. The camera followed her, used her face to show the collective terror, and throughout the invasion of New York showed how she went from place to place, from her job to being attacked and saved to a newsreel at the end thanking Cap for saving her life. It was a nice way to add that “there are real people here” element without taking up too much of a story that isn’t about the everyman.
Petition for him to recreate Breaking Bad JR
i could remember at least 15 different random civilians from that trilogy alone, people that get no more than a couple shots in the movie, maybe one line of dialogue, but thats ALL YOU NEED, something modern superhero films lack, badly, tired of cgi environments that feel more like an arena to fight in that a place people use every day and need saving in