While studying scripture, I was shocked to realize the current state of Israel in the Middle East did not fulfill Isaiah 66.8 (a nation born in a day) as we’re always told; the context (vv15-16) is speaking about the day of the Lord which coincides with the physical resurrection of the dead (‘born’ out of the land) which is further elaborated in 26.19. This did not happen in 1948. In that case, if the state in the middle east is not biblical Israel, what is it?
Read Ezekiel 36:16-28 about God's plan to regather Israel in unbelief, and only after then cleanse them, etc... and you can also watch Derek Prince's sermon on Why Israel and related teachings. For me, those are quite enlightening. He was also there in Israel during the war time, because he was in the British army.
@@TogelTr That will happen at a future time during the millennium after Christ returns to set up His kingdom in the land which is when Isaiah 66.8 is finally fulfilled on the day of the Lord coinciding with the resurrection at the last shofar/ trumpet blast. There will still be remnants in the nations after armageddon, in the ‘outer darkness.’
@@AllOtherNamesUsed Or, the first step could already has been happening. It is a hard fact that the Jews have been regathered now in the land.. so perhaps that is the fulfillment of verse 24... because we cannot for certain say that it is NOT its fulfillment, can we? We will only be able to tell later in hind sight after everything is revealed.
@@TogelTr no not at all and we can be certain it doesn’t happen in long drawn out steps because of multiple verses showing the gathering happens on the day of the Lord at the last trumpet blast when Christ returns coinciding with the resurrection, that is when Isa 66.8 is ‘born’ in a day out of the land. And it’s a hard fact that not all Israel is of Israel (Rom 9.6) showing there is a fleshly Israel vs spiritual Israel (Rom 2.28-29) and as Christ told Nicodemus, you must be spiritually reborn to see the kingdom of God (Jn 3.3); flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1Cor 15.50), hence Rev 2.9, 3.9. What is set up in the land before Christ returns is called spiritual Sodom, Egypt and Babylon.
The main question to both is about THE COVENANT. The covenant to Abram was that he will be A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS, not only one nation, hence the change of his name to ABRAHAM.
I'm fascinated by the fact they both mention Deut 30 & 32 but neither mentions the Divine Council Worldview that under-lays those passages. If you factor in the work of Dr. Michael Heiser, it sheds light on these texts that neither of these gentlemen touched. You have to have both the human side and rebel-elohim side of the equation to see the fuller picture.
After Heiser I'll never read the Bible the same again. I'm still reprocessing everything I had been taught before. I can barely read a commentary anymore because they all misinterpret this backbone of biblical theology.
What does the heavenly court have to do with the overall thrust of Deu 30 or 32? 32.8 is just a passing reference, not central to the discussion here. I personally find Heiser’s work highly derivative of others and disappointing at how low his view of scriptures comes across on various topics such as cosmology and prophesy, etc.
@@nomadicrecovery1586 no, you don’t. I’ve had heated discussions with his ‘fans’ defending his poor views on these issues, and creation, and they are equally as assertive and with as much merit as you’ve demonstrated. Very bot like.
It was never really about Israel it was always about Jesus & the whole world! I feel sorry for the Christian Jews because they are persecuted a lot they seem to think that Christians would turn against them but i know as a born again Christian I would love them the same as my other Christian brothers and sisters because we are all one in Christ Jesus & all Christians should stick together after all the world is our enemy not Jewish Christians 😢✝️🙏
You are correct, the key to understand this, is Genesis 11 and 12 as a single narrative calling of Abram was a redemptive calling to reach the whole world after God divided the nation by dividing the languages, those languages come together again at Pentecost, now united by the cross of Christ. Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
*God gave the earth to Man.* God did not need to become a man so that he could rule over the earth, he has always been and will always be, sovereign over all of Creation. *God is One and is eternal.* God cannot die. *Jesus was a man, who, as is stated numerous times in Scripture, is the SON of God.* He will return to earth in order to rule over the earth as God's human representative.
Fantastic discussion. So many texts, passages, and new ideas to explore. I too have never really heard or interacted with messianic Jews. Interesting to see the points of agreement and contention with someone like Dr. Wright.
Facinating discussion, but I am suprised that they hardly touched upon (Wright mentioned it in one sentence) the frace "for the jew first, then gentile), wich for Paul was such a deep theological conviction that it became his mission strategy Paul ALWAYS when to the jews first to preach to them in any city he came to. For Paul he would not preach to gentiles until the jews started rejecting the gospel because he said that the Word must always FIRST be preached to the jews. Why his conviction and practise was like this would have been an interesting discussion to get some insights from.
To the Jew first doesn’t mean to the exclusion of gentiles. it does mean however that there is a hierarchy. Hierarchy however doesn’t mean less than or not equal. With God we see many hierarchies in his economy but hierarchy is for serving a purpose. Usually the purpose being the one higher is to serve the lower. Because the Jews had the prophets and law and scriptures they were to be a light to the gentiles and draw them too God. So the hierarchy remained. It was the Jews that brought the gospel to the world.
Dr. Michael Brown quoted the verse about the LORD which says that when He opens, no one shuts, and when He shuts, no one opens, when talking about the exile of Israel. When He exiled Israel, nobody can return them, when He returns Israel, nobody can stop Him. I totally agree. Israel was exiled by God as a form of punishment or discipline for rejecting the salvation. Nobody can return them. Therefore, when they returned, it must have been the work of God. Indeed, when He returned them, nobody can stop it, even when the whole Arab/Islam world was against it!
That assumes two things: 1. that the modern state of Israel is the fulfillment of prophecy, which of course it isn't. They are not even the same people after nearly two millennia. And 2. that the premillennial view is correct, which of course it isn't.
@@Redeemed60 You tried to refute my statements without any reason at all, which is of course is not even reasonable. God said: Jeremiah 31: 35 Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar- the LORD of hosts is his name: 36 “If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, *then shall the offspring of Israel cease* *from being a nation before me* forever.” The order of the sun and moon and stars still prevails today, so Israel still remains a nation before God. Of course, unless you believe that God can lie. When Jesus prophesied about the destruction of Jerusalem, which came true in 70AD, He said: Luke 21: 22 for these are days of vengeance, *to fulfill all that is written.* Show me where it is written that the nation of Israel (descendants of Jacob) will be utterly destroyed and gone forever. I can show you that all that is written about this 'chastisement' ends with the restoration of the nation of Israel, instead of utter destruction and annihilation of ethnic/national Israel, as you think.
@@TogelTr The only way you can show that is by presuming premillennialism. And most likely it will be dispensational premillennialism. So I would have to believe that system is Biblical in order to agree that you have proven your case. I'm sorry, but it's not Biblical. It's a creation of John Nelson Darby and Cyrus Ingerson Scofield.
a mixed multitude came out of egypt with moses and became the people of God, in covenant with God, receiving the commandments of God. it was never strictly ethnic, regarding being genetically jewish. gentiles from the get go could be considered just as the jews, by entering according to the commandments of God, specifically beginning with circumcision.
I have not come across any middle ages concept of Jesus being spiritual Messiah and the other Messiah for Jews that brings political peace !! In the middle ages the dominant church was Catholic Church. And there is not a single concept in Catholicism that says so. I just stopped watching this discussion as soon as N.T. Wright said this
I did come across it, but I believe it was a topic between Jewish scholars rather than Christians. The idea is discussed in the Jewish Talmud and comes partly from the 2 messianic prophesies that Jews cannot reconcile. One is of the Messiah coming on a donkey; humble, etc. The other is where the Messiah comes on the clouds of heaven. These have caused jews to speculate that there will be 2 different messiahs.
I remember some years ago when Egypt was threatening to close down petroleum products to Israel.... and boom Israel find petroleum reserves they did not know about for hundreds of years. From oil dependent to become an oil independent. Yes... as gentiles we have been grafted in. But Israel still remain the apple of God's eye.
Nonsense. Much to do about nothing, theology is weak sauce. One might expect a deity, if there were such a thing, would be known by everyone or is fudging the title a bit. The fraud of religious people is revealed by the failure rate of prayers in a children's hospital & the lack of mountains moving by verbal commands. Theologians grant themselves the title without any input from a deity & then use fantasyland vocabulary in academic settings, usually as a podium jockey with clergyman dress. But if I can't use my weak argument, then I don't have an argument at all. Those arguing God, get their knowledge of deity from the same place they get understanding of reason. Rather than a beacon of inspirational light, they are avoided like the old woman with too many cats. It was secular law & order ending the inquisitions & witch killing. Nothing fails like prayer in a children's hospital & even Jesus Christ proclaims faith is worthless if you can't get magic mountains to move when you practice verbal-command landscaping. No wonder Freud wrote the antidote to Christianity is literacy. These are the wolves in sheep's clothing, you know them by their works: Who has honor while suggesting a reality-God? As if we did not have the saying: God helps those helping themselves, because the fiction is known for a perfect record of nothing-doing. Moreover, it cannot be moral or ethical to suggest there is a god. As if one should respect the suggestion, we all travel with one foot in fantasyland, using a fantasyland vocabulary. It is religious vocabulary fascism finds useful. Law is authorized from fantasyland & the workings are a mystery, unknown to the non-believers among the oppressed. I grew up in line to be sent to fight in the "Vietnam Conflict." I don't expect much from the national bomb-factory, so I don't vote. I tell people to consider this a prison without bars. Read the Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars.
You have no idea what is meant people of God or chosen of God. It is actually related only of their being servants of God. But unfortunately, they are disobedient and stubborn servants.
When theologians like NT Wright take the case of Israel's relationship with God as a platform for a more detached spirituality and mission of God, it creates a very alluring, enticing all-encompassing universality that appeals to those who haven't read the Bible closely, and in its entirety. The Bible is clear from cover to cover, however: God has appointed the Jewish people as His covenant nation with an everlasting purpose to receive the kingdom when Jesus returns to sit on His glorious throne in Jerusalem when Ezekiel's Temple (Ezek 40-48) is set up as the world centerpiece of the nations.
If Jesus is the true temple, why in the world would God sanction the building of another temple, which, according to Hebrews is merely a shadow of the true temple?
1) YHWH does NOT have a separate plan of salvation for those who deny and mock His Son. You're either in Yeshua or you aren't. 2) Unbelieving Jews do not worship or have a relationship with YHWH. 3) Jesus is reigning from His throne NOW and does not need to rule from a physical/earthly throne. 4) The modern state or Israel is no less an abomination today as it was in the first-century when YHWH used Rome to destroy it.
The are those doctrines in the Bible that are definitely presented like the life death and resurrection of the Messiah, but there are those subjects that are broad in scope.
It always astonishes me when others in the comment section say something like, “people who adhere to ‘said’ position are clearly people who have not read the Bible in its entirety or very closely”. And then continuing that line of thought, the commenter concludes with something like, “because if they did, they would clearly come to the opposite ‘said’ position (aka the position I side with). Lord have mercy on us sinners.
It always astonishes me when others in the comment section say something like, “people who adhere to ‘said’ position are clearly people who have not read the Bible in its entirety or very closely”. And then continuing that line of thought, the commenter concludes with something like, “because if they did, they would clearly come to the opposite ‘said’ position (aka the position I side with). Lord have mercy on us sinners.
The COVENANT was fulfilled and ABRAHAM became the father of ALL NATIONS OF BELIVERS in CHRIST, THE MESSIA AND SAVIOIR from the kingdom of darkness, not the romans.
Individual Jews can be saved. Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls. Peter says those days have come. The Christian’s escaped the destruction of Jerusalem because they heeded Jesus warning. The Christian’s are the ones who called on the name of the Lord, the Messiah. Jews rejected the promised Messiah and the day of the Lord came upon them. The Jews were covenant breakers and the curse of Deuteronomy 28 was poured out upon them.
Seems to me the bottom-line question is, within the New Covenant, a) do genealogical Jews have something different about them however big or small, or b) is the distinction solely between those who have faith in Jesus and those who do not, regardless whether they are genealogical Jews or Gentiles? Seems to me the answer has to be a). Otherwise, Rom 11:12 and 11:15 make no sense. “Now if their [genealogical Jews] trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, HOW MUCH MORE will their full inclusion mean!” (Rom 11:12) If b) is true, then their inclusion would be neither here nor there; their inclusion would mean no more or less riches than any other believer. But that is clearly not what the verse says. Rom 11:15 reinforces the point: “For if their [genealogical Jews] rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean BUT LIFE FROM THE DEAD?” The Joshua Project tells us there are 7200+ unreached people groups still, yet it seems it's the genealogical Jews that is the final and most important piece of the jigsaw that cannot be substituted by any other ethnic group. It’s only their acceptance that makes this crucial difference and not, for example, the Yahia Bedouin of Morocco. Why is that? A further consideration, whose sovereign prerogative is it to ordain this difference except God? (Edited to correct typo and for clarity).
This book 📕 called the Holy Bible has got , two main parts in my understanding, studying the Holy Book 📕 carefully and diligently. First 2000 years in the Bible ( Genesis 1-11 ) is the first part. This part of the Bible focuses on all the inhabitants of the world and how GOD almighty was dealing with the human being , first 2000 years for sure. Second part of the Bible starts from Genesis 12-Revelation 22. This covers all what GOD did creating a new race called JEWS, how he has dealt with them so far and how he is going to finish dealing with them. I believe the CROSS and what happened at the CROSS applies to the whole world 🌍. In the above discussion, in my opinion and understanding, Dr N T Write is totally wrong in calling himself GENTLE. Ephesians chapter 2 , is very clear about this important subject, who is a GENTILE in the Bible for sure. In this chapter, Apostle Paul is talking to a group of people called the Gentiles who were uncircumcised Jews, GOD through Lord Jesus Christ trying to remove the middle partitioned wall and bring the circumcised Jews and the uncircumcised Jews together and make a new body called the BODY OF CHRIST. I firmly believe, Lord Jesus Christ came to his own and through his own to bring the inhabitants of the world 🌍, people like me to come to know him. In my humble opinion, on the whole, Christendom has been misled by our forefathers and teaching us unsound , so called the gospel. This how I see it so far until otherwise proven. 🤔. ✝️🩸🙏.
Excellent. Thank you. Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the Well, "Salvation is of the Jews." The Church needed to and needs to always value God's work through Israel for their salvation.
I disagree. The Old Testament was full of shadows. Israel, the nation state, was a shadow of the 'Israel of God,' Galatians 6:16 that began and is now continuing with the Lord Jesus. Peace
@@11jpoulos 1. When Ham uncovered his father's nakedness (slept with Noah's wife) Noah pronounced a prophecy. Japeth and Shem would dwell together in 1 tent (assembly of 1 family) and would rule over the wicked. Japeth = non physical descendants of avraham and shem = physical descendants of avraham. Fast forward to avraham and let's focus on DNA for a moment. In Genesis 17 who was circumcised when the covenant was made? It wasn't physical Israel because Yissac wasn't yet born. The only living descendant of avraham was Yishmael who was a mixture of hebrew [avraham] and gentile [hagar]. The rest of the people in Avraham's camp were all gentiles. Keep going forward. When the Israelites came out of Egypt who were they? A mixed multitude comprising the descendants of avraham and other non related peoples. What does Israel mean? One who wrestles with god. What did the word mean as time went on? Physical descendants. What were Israelites commanded not to do? Change the word of God, add to it or take away from it. So focus on the original meaning, not our current definition. Stay conservative with the words. What did the law say about non physical descendants who wanted to partake of the covenant? They were to be treated as natural born citizens thus giving them every lasting inheritance a physical descendant had. Why did they have to be reminded of this? Because they had already started to alter the meaning of the word Israel to mean something solely based on dna. Keep going forward until the 2nd temple period. Another promise that non dna Israel would become priests. New testament time and covenantly people are once again the same as before. Israel is not solely based on dna. Actually DNA doesn't qualify you. Israel were people who followed the one true God. The only God. To follow meant to trust and do his instructions because they are true and right. A little contesting an arguing is acceptable as all healthy relationships include such things. Israel includes avrahamic dna as well as non avrahamic dna. Hence dna is not the qualifier. What qualifies you is that you follow the covenant. How many dna jews were exiled and destroyed in the OT? For what reason were they cast out? Because they abandoned the covenant. The covenant is the key. Take Joseph as another example. His 2 sons come from an Egyptian. Both of those sons become Israelites and not just any israelite but leaders of tribes. Both share egyptian blood. Remember when the disciples criticized the man who casts out demons in Yahshua's name because he wasn't following their group? Did Yahshuah support their claim? Nope. Who were the 2 people who had great faith not seen in Israel? DNA jews or gentiles? So we have great faith gentiles and jewish disciples. All are included, why? Because they followed the covenant. If you adopted a child and bore a child would one or the other get special treatment? One has your dna and the other doesn't? What keeps the family together? The willingness of the children to partake of the requirements of relationships. If the adopted son had the heart of Yahshuah but wasn't your blood would you exclude him? Now what if the blood born son had the heart of evil? Would he be allowed to partake of the family benefits? What matters? Blood or character? What is Israel? One who wrestles with god. No Genetic prerequisite needed, all are allowed to follow. *additional thought. What is a hebrew? How could an individual start a dna strand? They can't, so if avraham was the first hebrew then what was his father? What about sarah? She wasn't a hebrew so that means she was a gentile and Yissac was again born from gentile and hebrew blood. But that's not the point. The point is what does the word Hebrew mean? It means one who crosses over. Crosses over from what? What did avraham leave when he left his fathers home? He left polytheism and ungodliness behind and followed the 1 true god. He crossed over from wickedness to righteousness. That's what hebrew means. Hebrew = one who leaves ungodliness and crosses over into a covenant with the one true god. Israel = one who wrestles with god.
This man makes the same mistake the Roman Catholics did in the early church. He divorces the Church from her Jewish Roots, which Paul warned against in Romans 11. God wanted the Church to remain humble and not forget her Jewish roots, which remain to this day. He did not want the Church to exalt herself above the supporting roots. In scripture both Israel and the Church are exhorted to remain humble before God, who chose both Israel and the Church to bring salvation to the world. The land of Israel was given to the Jews as an everlasting pissession. Old testament prophecies promised the return to the land of the Jews, in unbelief. National Israel will turn to the Messiah they rejected at his first coming when he returns at the end of the Great Tribulation to save them and mete out judgment on Israel's enemies. Nations will be judged according to how they treated Israel. I suspect there is some antisemitism at the root of this video, just as there was when the early church spurned its supporting Jewish roots. The Protestant Reformation carried this mistake forward. Remember "The children are beloved for the fathers' sake." (Hebrews 11)The fathers were the Patriarchs of Israel. The children are the Jews.
It's not likely the church is going to forget it's Jewish roots, since after all, we have the written word of God and the Holy Spirit to help keep us humble. Also one would have to believe the premillennial view is the correct one, which of course it isn't.
I think they forget or don't understand the Scriptures as the Jewish people should Abraham was not a Jewish neither was Isaac and Jacob wasn't Jewish until GOD changed his name to Israel & it has always been about Jesus Christ not about Israel we are all one in Christ & if any Jewish person is in Christ they are our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus period 🤷✝️
It depends on what Israel you are talking about. Romans 9:6-8 KJVS Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: [7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. [8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. And if that isn’t clear enough. Galatians 4:21-26 KJVS Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? [22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. [23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. [24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. [25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. [26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
I would add that it depends also on which Israel we are talking about - modern, politically created Israel or ancient, Biblical Israel. They're not the same. Which some people do not understand for some reason.
Salvation comes via Israel through the line of David and by the house of Judaea and His Name is Jesus. How does James apply the prophecy of Amos (which a dispen or ‘natural, literal’ reading would tell you that it applies entirely to the nation. Not so with the Apostle James, one of Christ’s closest disciples, who applies the entire “booth of David” to not just Jews in Jesus but every other people who believe in the name. The church is the tent, which Hebrews said is the model for spiritual life (not the temple remember Stephen). Jesus confirmed His kingship by foretelling of the Roman-Jewish War and destruction of Jerusalem. Nearly every other way of viewing it throws us back on the doctrine of Judaism and rejecting the faith that Jesus and Paul taught. Additionally, national Israel is a godless nation, who reject Christ nearly to the man and if you were to see it disappear into the sea, it would be the hand of God but I do believe God preserves them throughout history so He might save a few but also to punish them for their hatred of Christ. The Jews broke all of their covenants, particularly those of the Moses God punished them, brought them back in mercy, who then broke His heart again with their traditions of men, and so He came Himself to give the proper interpretation and to be their king but they killed Him. He once more sent out Apostles to compel them to repent and believe on His Name but they murdered and tortured them. And you are trying to tell me God is going to exalt Israel above all other institutions of His government?
The Lord has not finish with Israel. Yes, they are a godless nation, the bones and the flesh has been rebirth but in time they will have His Spirit and 'will look upon Him whome they pierced and more for Him as an only son'. Israel will have a massive revival but it will be or most likely will be during the time of Jacob's Trouble.
Reconsider what Jesus said in John 15:6, that no branch that does not abide in Jesus is to be cut off and thrown into fires, which has happened to Christ rejecting Jews starting with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I think this purging of unbelievers is not yet finished. Read Luke 19:27 and Jeremiah 19:11 where Jeremiah prophesied that the current Old Jerusalem will be completely destroyed never to be rebuilt again. Jesus cursed that old fig tree and it withered and died. He did say that it would again put on leaves, which it has done, but that it would NEVER bear fruit for God ever again. Paul then called the current Old Jerusalem Hagar which must be cast out. This I believe refers to all religions of works righteousness including Judaism. Don't be surprised if the current, Christ-rejecting Old Jerusalem is soon nuked, making it impossible to ever be rebuilt. Watch and learn. Isaiah 29:5-6. Kaboom.
@@edeancozzens3833 The prophets are full of God's promises of restoration of Israel to their land. I have collected at least about 30 verses of such promises. The genealogical descendants of Jacob will never cease to be a nation before the LORD: Jer 31: 35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: 36 *If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.* God also promised that He will return Israel to their land without EVER BEING UPROOTED again. So, if Israel was still uprooted, then this prophecy is NOT YET fulfilled. Amos 9: 14 *I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel,* and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit. 15 *I will plant them on their land,* *and they shall never again be uprooted* *out of the land that I have given them,”* says the LORD your God. So, the final fate of the house of Israel will be *being planted in their land without ever being uprooted again.* Those promises were given without any conditions. So, if God does not keep those promises, you will not be sure if He will keep His promises to you as a Christian. But of course, He will keep ALL of His promises, because He is the only one true God who does not change. You can read Ezekiel 36:16-28 containing God's 'blueprint' of how He will make Israel believe. He will bring them back to their land in unbelief, just like today, but then He will sprinkle water over them, etc, so that eventually they will accept their Messiah, Lord Jesus Christ.
The Northern kingdom of ten tribes were scattered throughout the gentile nations and lost their identity but Jesus came for them and said He had come to seek these lost sheep of the House of Israel.. they are meant to come together with the Southern kingdom of two tribes, the House of Judah, known as Jews. Jesus will return when the twelve tribes come together in Christ and for all nations to be saved. It is a Sovereign work of God.
I believe this actually started on the Day of Pentecost when representatives from all the tribes were in Jerusalem to hear Peter present the Gospel. When they believed they appointed a new head (see Hosea 1) and then went up from Jerusalem taking the Gospel to the whole world, back to their fellow Israelites all over Europe, and then out to the world, up from the Old Covenant into the New. The glory that was to come in Israel has happened through this process which we call the Church, but it was actually born again, remarried former Israelites living all over Europe under other names. They became the Christian nations of Europe which have taken the Gospel to the whole world by now. They are former Israelites plus whoever the Lord our God has called and continues to call.
In Romans 2 Peter addresses the Jews from the House of Israel. In Romans 9-11 he is referring to the once divorced House of Israel. Two different things. Good job for seeing that.
@@edeancozzens3833 I appreciate it. Of coarse the Jews being of the the tribe of Judah originally and then the southern nation made up of Benjamin, Judah, and Levi, were a part of the greater Israel of YHWH, that does not mean the term Jew in any way IS Israel as a whole. To speak of Israel as though the term Jews were synonyms is in error.
Circumcision = sign of the covenant (genesis 17) Abraham = first Hebrew Hebrews = became Israelites Israelites = produced jews from the tribe or judah. When the covenant was made with avraham who was circumcised? It wasn't physical descendants outside of ishmael because issac wasn't yet born. All the people in the camp with avraham were gentiles. Ishmael was both a hebrew and an egyptian. When the Israelites came out of Egypt to form the nation of Israel they were a mixed multitude. When they dwelt in the land non avraham descendants who wished to be a part of Israel were given all the same rights as a natural citizen including physical inheritance. Israel means wrestle with god. Anyone who wants to partake of the covenant is israel. Partaking of the covenant means walking by the ways of the god of Avraham, Yissac, and Yacov. Walking by the ways of the God of Avraham, Yissac, and Yacov requires the proper understanding of what certain statements in the Tanakh mean in their proper historical context. Sadly, those that possessed the oracles of God failed at properly delivering their message.
@@chuckabean1 We have been grafted onto the vine, but we should never think we are "better" than the vine. I wish Christians had been more humble and charitable during the past 2000 years than we were toward the Jews. More Jews might have been open to accepting Jesus as Messiah if we had.
Nanos explains Romans 11 in a new light in his book _Reading Romans within Judaism_. There he argues that the branches were not completely broken off of their tree but have been “bent aside” or “broken” (but not broken off completely) and one non-native branch has been grafted in “among them,” as Paul says. He also argues that when Paul speaks of them being “hardened,” he is talking about a callous that has formed on the native olive branches in order to protect and preserve them, to keep them safe. In addition to arguing based off of how certain Greek terms were used in the ancient world, this is also how olive grafts were performed.
@@chuckabean1John 15 the True Vine is Jesus and not Israel. Galatians 3 St Paul states clearly that God’s promised to Abram was fulfilled in Jesus and the heirs of this promise is to those with faith in Jesus Christ. Not every Christian is bewitched by Judaizers.
Mr Kinzer, geneologic Israel, stayed in the land. They are the Palestinian Jews of antiquity. The Arab Jews. The Persian Jews, etc., are not of European origin, are not the descendants of Japheth.
In the Bible there are two Jerusalems: The current old one that continues to reject King Jesus. and will not let Him rule over them. This is Hagar that must and will be cast out. Kaboom one way or another. The New Jerusalem, the city whose builder and architect is God, will come down from Heaven. That is where we will live and from which Jesus will reign. Just as in the first century, when you see the armies coming, sell and move away. Those who "stand with" that old Jerusalem will suffer and die with them. Read 2 John 7-11. The current Christ-rejecting inhabitants of that Old Jerusalem are antichrists. That's what John said.
@@lawrence1318 The relationship between Jesus and Israel is not a zero-sum game. Jesus the Messiah didn't come to replace His people but to redeem them, and He will accomplish this in due time.
But since Jesus was from Israel, all of Israel wasn't replaced. You must be born again. Not all Israel is Israel now in God's eyes, only those who have been born again in Christ. The Butterfly has come out of the cocoon in Christ.
Israel was the type. Jesus is the fulfillment. See the Servant of the LORD passages in isaiah. Paul also says elsewhere that the abrahamic covenant was made to abraham and to his seed, that is Christ. No middle man. Jesus is the true Israel. One body of Christ. One people of God. The pattern in scripture is that once a type is fulfilled, you dont go back to the types and shadows. Ie. No more animal sacrifices because of Jesus' sacrifice
Notice that in Romans 2 Paul speaks exclusively to Jews, which I think he is addressing to the House of Judah since the coming of Christ. In Romans 9-11 he uses the word Israel almost exclusively. I think Paul is addressing the House of Israel in these chapters post Christ. Paul understood the division that had happened centuries before after the death of Solomon in which all of the original Israel divided into the Ten Tribes of the House of Israel from the two and a half tribes in the south which were from then called The House of Judah or Jews who went to Babylon and back. There then in the time of Paul this question of what would happen to both now that Christ had come. He then addresses this in Romans. In chapter 2 he's addressing the House of Judah. In 9 to 11 he's addressing the house of Israel. Two different but overlapping groups which makes it confusing. One problem that Paul would have understood which most today are unaware of is that in Torah law once a man divorced his wife he was not allowed to remarry her. In Hosea 1 God clearly divorced the House of Israel. Does this mean they were therefore gone forever? The question in Paul's time would have been what happens to the divorced House of Israel since Christ has come. Did His coming change anything? Were they still divorced from YHWH and was that condition forever still? Are they still divorced and never to be reconnected because the Torah Law said they could not be? Notice that in Romans 9-11 Paul quotes Hosea 1 which is very strong evidence that he was indeed thinking of the divorced House of Israel, proving he is thinking of the ten plus tribes of divorced House of Israel in chapters 9 to 11. A question that would have been on many people's minds in 50 AD was if Judah therefore by default gets the inheritance promised to Ephraim and the subsequent House of Israel because they had been divorced. Did Jesus' coming change anything related to that? I think that one of the reasons Paul wrote Romans was to answer these questions. The answer Paul provides is that God solved this, getting around His own Torah Law on divorce, by the groom coming and dying and being resurrected to be the living God promised in Hosea 1 so that God could remarry the divorced House of Israel under a new Covenant just as promised in Hosea one. Without considering this, many Bible scholars today like these two miss Paul's point in chapters 9-11, which is that through Christ it is now possible for the once divorced House of Israel, which by 50 AD were scattered under other names living apart from God outside of the Covenant, could now be remarried under the new Covenant. Peter also makes this connection to Hosea 1 in I Peter 2 and he starts his epistle in I Peter 1 addressed to all twelve tribes as James done in his epistle. By the time of the writing of these two books, the once divorced House of Israel was being re-covenanted under the New Covenant. But not all of them, as Paul says in Romans 9:6-9, where he clearly says "not all Israel is part of this new born again Israel" in God's eyes, which by the way is made up of former House of Israel once divorced and scattered now being remarried under the New Covenant. As Jesus put it to Nicodemus who was a Jew from the House of Judah, "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN." To Peter who was also of Judah, He put it this way: "Who do you say that I am." "Thou art the Christ" said Peter. Jesus then affirmed that and acknowledged that this had been revealed to Peter and that it would be on this rock of the revelation of Jesus as the Christ that the church would be built! (Catholics got it wrong by saying the the rock was Peter. It was the revelation that God gave to Peter which we are to believe and confess, which Paul then explains in of all places, Romans 10, right in the middle of 9-11. Born again Israel is now the Israel that God recognizes, all of which will be saved. Not who all who are from the original physical Israel are now Israel, only the ones to whom God reveals Christ to and who confess Him. That in my view is the all of Israel who will be saved, and these are from the House of Judah like Peter and Paul, Mary and Martha, and from the former House of Israel who had been divorced and scattered, mostly up into Europe and beyond, and as many from all the tribes and nations of the whole world as the Lord our God shall call. It is also important to point out that in the Torah Law, anyone from any tribe who did not go to Passover and apply the blood of the Passover Lamb was expelled from Israel and the covenants, and according to Jesus in John 15:6 could not bear fruit pleasing to God and would be cut off and thrown into fires, which is exactly what happened to the Christ-rejecting Jews in 70 AD and beyond to this day. They have excluded themselves by rejecting the Passover Lamb who was Jesus. They divorced themselves when God had provided forgiveness for this sins in breaking the Mosaic Covenant. No one stands based on works of righteousness. Such a person is Hagar Old Jerusalem which Paul says in Galatians must be cast out. They can call themseles Jews and Israel all day long, but that matters not now that the Passover Lamb has come. According to John 3:36 they remain under their sin and under the wrath of God, and Luke 19:27 is likely about to happen, which coincides with Jeremiah 19:11. .
You are wrong brother or sister. Here , we are not observing who has won or lost but we are just dealing with tuff scriptures , difficult passages to understand. Please don't bring this kind of battle in this wonderful debate. Build us , don't disturb us. Sorry
@@munyeragwephilemon4868 2 Tim 3:7 “Always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. “ ...so, they can’t both be correct. And it’s absurd to say there is no true answer.
![ARGENTINA vs. PERÚ [1-0] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 12](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xtI25ENDDSY/mqdefault.jpg)
N. T. Wright what a teacher ! hardcore
Dr wright is right for sure ✝️🙏
worth mentioning: john 4:19-24 no one will worship in jerusalem...
It's a joy to see a gentlemanly debate on what is often a very contentious topic.
Well presented Dr Kinzer. Absolutely right.
While studying scripture, I was shocked to realize the current state of Israel in the Middle East did not fulfill Isaiah 66.8 (a nation born in a day) as we’re always told; the context (vv15-16) is speaking about the day of the Lord which coincides with the physical resurrection of the dead (‘born’ out of the land) which is further elaborated in 26.19. This did not happen in 1948.
In that case, if the state in the middle east is not biblical Israel, what is it?
literally, a political state whose single core identity is based on the denial that Jesus is the Christ.
Read Ezekiel 36:16-28 about God's plan to regather Israel in unbelief, and only after then cleanse them, etc... and you can also watch Derek Prince's sermon on Why Israel and related teachings. For me, those are quite enlightening. He was also there in Israel during the war time, because he was in the British army.
@@TogelTr That will happen at a future time during the millennium after Christ returns to set up His kingdom in the land which is when Isaiah 66.8 is finally fulfilled on the day of the Lord coinciding with the resurrection at the last shofar/ trumpet blast. There will still be remnants in the nations after armageddon, in the ‘outer darkness.’
@@AllOtherNamesUsed Or, the first step could already has been happening. It is a hard fact that the Jews have been regathered now in the land.. so perhaps that is the fulfillment of verse 24... because we cannot for certain say that it is NOT its fulfillment, can we? We will only be able to tell later in hind sight after everything is revealed.
@@TogelTr no not at all and we can be certain it doesn’t happen in long drawn out steps because of multiple verses showing the gathering happens on the day of the Lord at the last trumpet blast when Christ returns coinciding with the resurrection, that is when Isa 66.8 is ‘born’ in a day out of the land. And it’s a hard fact that not all Israel is of Israel (Rom 9.6) showing there is a fleshly Israel vs spiritual Israel (Rom 2.28-29) and as Christ told Nicodemus, you must be spiritually reborn to see the kingdom of God (Jn 3.3); flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God (1Cor 15.50), hence Rev 2.9, 3.9. What is set up in the land before Christ returns is called spiritual Sodom, Egypt and Babylon.
The main question to both is about THE COVENANT.
The covenant to Abram was that he will be A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS, not only one nation, hence the change of his name to ABRAHAM.
Kinzers quote of Luke 13:34-35 leaves out the word “desolate”?
I'm fascinated by the fact they both mention Deut 30 & 32 but neither mentions the Divine Council Worldview that under-lays those passages. If you factor in the work of Dr. Michael Heiser, it sheds light on these texts that neither of these gentlemen touched. You have to have both the human side and rebel-elohim side of the equation to see the fuller picture.
After Heiser I'll never read the Bible the same again. I'm still reprocessing everything I had been taught before. I can barely read a commentary anymore because they all misinterpret this backbone of biblical theology.
What does the heavenly court have to do with the overall thrust of Deu 30 or 32? 32.8 is just a passing reference, not central to the discussion here. I personally find Heiser’s work highly derivative of others and disappointing at how low his view of scriptures comes across on various topics such as cosmology and prophesy, etc.
@@AllOtherNamesUsedthen you don’t understand his views or work
@@nomadicrecovery1586 no, you don’t. I’ve had heated discussions with his ‘fans’ defending his poor views on these issues, and creation, and they are equally as assertive and with as much merit as you’ve demonstrated. Very bot like.
@@AllOtherNamesUsed Lol.. uh what..🤣
How can you claim there are genealogical children of Abraham when there are no genealogical records of such in existence today?
Apparently. There are. I’ve seen rabbis say this is a myth
They know what tribe they are from today
Enjoyed it very much. In all God is glorified.
It was never really about Israel it was always about Jesus & the whole world! I feel sorry for the Christian Jews because they are persecuted a lot they seem to think that Christians would turn against them but i know as a born again Christian I would love them the same as my other Christian brothers and sisters because we are all one in Christ Jesus & all Christians should stick together after all the world is our enemy not Jewish Christians 😢✝️🙏
AMEN AMEN I feel exactly the way you do AMEN 💯👍all love❤️
You are correct, the key to understand this, is Genesis 11 and 12 as a single narrative calling of Abram was a redemptive calling to reach the whole world after God divided the nation by dividing the languages, those languages come together again at Pentecost, now united by the cross of Christ. Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."
*God gave the earth to Man.*
God did not need to become a man so that he could rule over the earth, he has always been and will always be, sovereign over all of Creation.
*God is One and is eternal.* God cannot die.
*Jesus was a man, who, as is stated numerous times in Scripture, is the SON of God.* He will return to earth in order to rule over the earth as God's human representative.
Fantastic discussion. So many texts, passages, and new ideas to explore. I too have never really heard or interacted with messianic Jews. Interesting to see the points of agreement and contention with someone like Dr. Wright.
Facinating discussion, but I am suprised that they hardly touched upon (Wright mentioned it in one sentence) the frace "for the jew first, then gentile), wich for Paul was such a deep theological conviction that it became his mission strategy Paul ALWAYS when to the jews first to preach to them in any city he came to. For Paul he would not preach to gentiles until the jews started rejecting the gospel because he said that the Word must always FIRST be preached to the jews. Why his conviction and practise was like this would have been an interesting discussion to get some insights from.
I agree. This is an interesting observation that is worth exploring. I think Nanos has written on this in his work on Romans.
To the Jew first doesn’t mean to the exclusion of gentiles. it does mean however that there is a hierarchy. Hierarchy however doesn’t mean less than or not equal. With God we see many hierarchies in his economy but hierarchy is for serving a purpose. Usually the purpose being the one higher is to serve the lower. Because the Jews had the prophets and law and scriptures they were to be a light to the gentiles and draw them too God. So the hierarchy remained. It was the Jews that brought the gospel to the world.
It isn’t an either or
Absolutely right - it is a both and...
Dr. Michael Brown quoted the verse about the LORD which says that when He opens, no one shuts, and when He shuts, no one opens, when talking about the exile of Israel. When He exiled Israel, nobody can return them, when He returns Israel, nobody can stop Him. I totally agree. Israel was exiled by God as a form of punishment or discipline for rejecting the salvation. Nobody can return them. Therefore, when they returned, it must have been the work of God. Indeed, when He returned them, nobody can stop it, even when the whole Arab/Islam world was against it!
That assumes two things: 1. that the modern state of Israel is the fulfillment of prophecy, which of course it isn't. They are not even the same people after nearly two millennia. And 2. that the premillennial view is correct, which of course it isn't.
@@Redeemed60 You tried to refute my statements without any reason at all, which is of course is not even reasonable. God said:
Jeremiah 31:
35 Thus says the LORD,
who gives the sun for light by day
and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-
the LORD of hosts is his name:
36 “If this fixed order departs
from before me, declares the LORD,
*then shall the offspring of Israel cease*
*from being a nation before me* forever.”
The order of the sun and moon and stars still prevails today, so Israel still remains a nation before God. Of course, unless you believe that God can lie.
When Jesus prophesied about the destruction of Jerusalem, which came true in 70AD, He said:
Luke 21:
22 for these are days of vengeance, *to fulfill all that is written.*
Show me where it is written that the nation of Israel (descendants of Jacob) will be utterly destroyed and gone forever.
I can show you that all that is written about this 'chastisement' ends with the restoration of the nation of Israel, instead of utter destruction and annihilation of ethnic/national Israel, as you think.
@@TogelTr The only way you can show that is by presuming premillennialism. And most likely it will be dispensational premillennialism. So I would have to believe that system is Biblical in order to agree that you have proven your case. I'm sorry, but it's not Biblical. It's a creation of John Nelson Darby and Cyrus Ingerson Scofield.
a mixed multitude came out of egypt with moses and became the people of God, in covenant with God, receiving the commandments of God. it was never strictly ethnic,
regarding being genetically jewish. gentiles from the get go could be considered just as the jews, by entering according to the commandments of God, specifically beginning with circumcision.
I have not come across any middle ages concept of Jesus being spiritual Messiah and the other Messiah for Jews that brings political peace !! In the middle ages the dominant church was Catholic Church. And there is not a single concept in Catholicism that says so. I just stopped watching this discussion as soon as N.T. Wright said this
I did come across it, but I believe it was a topic between Jewish scholars rather than Christians. The idea is discussed in the Jewish Talmud and comes partly from the 2 messianic prophesies that Jews cannot reconcile. One is of the Messiah coming on a donkey; humble, etc. The other is where the Messiah comes on the clouds of heaven. These have caused jews to speculate that there will be 2 different messiahs.
I remember some years ago when Egypt was threatening to close down petroleum products to Israel.... and boom Israel find petroleum reserves they did not know about for hundreds of years. From oil dependent to become an oil independent. Yes... as gentiles we have been grafted in. But Israel still remain the apple of God's eye.
Nonsense.
Much to do about nothing, theology is weak sauce.
One might expect a deity, if there were such a thing, would be known by everyone or is fudging the title a bit.
The fraud of religious people is revealed by the failure rate of prayers in a children's hospital & the lack of mountains moving by verbal commands.
Theologians grant themselves the title without any input from a deity & then use fantasyland vocabulary in academic settings, usually as a podium jockey with clergyman dress.
But if I can't use my weak argument, then I don't have an argument at all.
Those arguing God, get their knowledge of deity from the same place they get understanding of reason.
Rather than a beacon of inspirational light, they are avoided like the old woman with too many cats. It was secular law & order ending the inquisitions & witch killing. Nothing fails like prayer in a children's hospital & even Jesus Christ proclaims faith is worthless if you can't get magic mountains to move when you practice verbal-command landscaping. No wonder Freud wrote the antidote to Christianity is literacy. These are the wolves in sheep's clothing, you know them by their works: Who has honor while suggesting a reality-God? As if we did not have the saying: God helps those helping themselves, because the fiction is known for a perfect record of nothing-doing. Moreover, it cannot be moral or ethical to suggest there is a god. As if one should respect the suggestion, we all travel with one foot in fantasyland, using a fantasyland vocabulary. It is religious vocabulary fascism finds useful. Law is authorized from fantasyland & the workings are a mystery, unknown to the non-believers among the oppressed.
I grew up in line to be sent to fight in the "Vietnam Conflict."
I don't expect much from the national bomb-factory, so I don't vote.
I tell people to consider this a prison without bars.
Read the Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars.
You have no idea what is meant people of God or chosen of God. It is actually related only of their being servants of God. But unfortunately, they are disobedient and stubborn servants.
What about the 11 other tribes, as appears to be only occupied by Jews
The Bible talks about the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven not the tiny little land in the middle east 🤷
When theologians like NT Wright take the case of Israel's relationship with God as a platform for a more detached spirituality and mission of God, it creates a very alluring, enticing all-encompassing universality that appeals to those who haven't read the Bible closely, and in its entirety. The Bible is clear from cover to cover, however: God has appointed the Jewish people as His covenant nation with an everlasting purpose to receive the kingdom when Jesus returns to sit on His glorious throne in Jerusalem when Ezekiel's Temple (Ezek 40-48) is set up as the world centerpiece of the nations.
If Jesus is the true temple, why in the world would God sanction the building of another temple, which, according to Hebrews is merely a shadow of the true temple?
1) YHWH does NOT have a separate plan of salvation for those who deny and mock His Son. You're either in Yeshua or you aren't.
2) Unbelieving Jews do not worship or have a relationship with YHWH.
3) Jesus is reigning from His throne NOW and does not need to rule from a physical/earthly throne.
4) The modern state or Israel is no less an abomination today as it was in the first-century when YHWH used Rome to destroy it.
The are those doctrines in the Bible that are definitely presented like the life death and resurrection of the Messiah, but there are those subjects that are broad in scope.
It always astonishes me when others in the comment section say something like, “people who adhere to ‘said’ position are clearly people who have not read the Bible in its entirety or very closely”. And then continuing that line of thought, the commenter concludes with something like, “because if they did, they would clearly come to the opposite ‘said’ position (aka the position I side with).
Lord have mercy on us sinners.
It always astonishes me when others in the comment section say something like, “people who adhere to ‘said’ position are clearly people who have not read the Bible in its entirety or very closely”. And then continuing that line of thought, the commenter concludes with something like, “because if they did, they would clearly come to the opposite ‘said’ position (aka the position I side with).
Lord have mercy on us sinners.
❤❤❤
Don't agree with everything NT puts out, but his mind always impresses
We are in the new covenant!
Who does the Bible say the new covenant was made with?
@@veritas2145 jer 31; hebr 8
Israël
The Israel of God is the Church Judy and gentil efesios 2.14
The COVENANT was fulfilled and ABRAHAM became the father of ALL NATIONS OF BELIVERS in CHRIST, THE MESSIA AND SAVIOIR from the kingdom of darkness, not the romans.
Individual Jews can be saved.
Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
Joel 2:32
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.
Peter says those days have come. The Christian’s escaped the destruction of Jerusalem because they heeded Jesus warning. The Christian’s are the ones who called on the name of the Lord, the Messiah. Jews rejected the promised Messiah and the day of the Lord came upon them. The Jews were covenant breakers and the curse of Deuteronomy 28 was poured out upon them.
Seems to me the bottom-line question is, within the New Covenant, a) do genealogical Jews have something different about them however big or small, or b) is the distinction solely between those who have faith in Jesus and those who do not, regardless whether they are genealogical Jews or Gentiles?
Seems to me the answer has to be a). Otherwise, Rom 11:12 and 11:15 make no sense.
“Now if their [genealogical Jews] trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, HOW MUCH MORE will their full inclusion mean!” (Rom 11:12)
If b) is true, then their inclusion would be neither here nor there; their inclusion would mean no more or less riches than any other believer. But that is clearly not what the verse says.
Rom 11:15 reinforces the point:
“For if their [genealogical Jews] rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean BUT LIFE FROM THE DEAD?”
The Joshua Project tells us there are 7200+ unreached people groups still, yet it seems it's the genealogical Jews that is the final and most important piece of the jigsaw that cannot be substituted by any other ethnic group. It’s only their acceptance that makes this crucial difference and not, for example, the Yahia Bedouin of Morocco. Why is that?
A further consideration, whose sovereign prerogative is it to ordain this difference except God?
(Edited to correct typo and for clarity).
This book 📕 called the Holy Bible has got , two main parts in my understanding, studying the Holy Book 📕 carefully and diligently. First 2000 years in the Bible ( Genesis 1-11 ) is the first part. This part of the Bible focuses on all the inhabitants of the world and how GOD almighty was dealing with the human being , first 2000 years for sure.
Second part of the Bible starts from Genesis 12-Revelation 22. This covers all what GOD did creating a new race called JEWS, how he has dealt with them so far and how he is going to finish dealing with them. I believe the CROSS and what happened at the CROSS applies to the whole world 🌍. In the above discussion, in my opinion and understanding, Dr N T Write is totally wrong in calling himself GENTLE. Ephesians chapter 2 , is very clear about this important subject, who is a GENTILE in the Bible for sure. In this chapter, Apostle Paul is talking to a group of people called the Gentiles who were uncircumcised Jews, GOD through Lord Jesus Christ trying to remove the middle partitioned wall and bring the circumcised Jews and the uncircumcised Jews together and make a new body called the BODY OF CHRIST. I firmly believe, Lord Jesus Christ came to his own and through his own to bring the inhabitants of the world 🌍, people like me to come to know him. In my humble opinion, on the whole, Christendom has been misled by our forefathers and teaching us unsound , so called the gospel. This how I see it so far until otherwise proven. 🤔. ✝️🩸🙏.
Excellent. Thank you. Jesus said to the Samaritan woman at the Well, "Salvation is of the Jews." The Church needed to and needs to always value God's work through Israel for their salvation.
I believe you're conflating the word Israel to mean either a nation state or a dna structure. I can prove that Israel is not specifically about dna
I disagree. The Old Testament was full of shadows. Israel, the nation state, was a shadow of the 'Israel of God,' Galatians 6:16 that began and is now continuing with the Lord Jesus. Peace
@@11jpoulos 1. When Ham uncovered his father's nakedness (slept with Noah's wife) Noah pronounced a prophecy. Japeth and Shem would dwell together in 1 tent (assembly of 1 family) and would rule over the wicked. Japeth = non physical descendants of avraham and shem = physical descendants of avraham.
Fast forward to avraham and let's focus on DNA for a moment. In Genesis 17 who was circumcised when the covenant was made? It wasn't physical Israel because Yissac wasn't yet born. The only living descendant of avraham was Yishmael who was a mixture of hebrew [avraham] and gentile [hagar]. The rest of the people in Avraham's camp were all gentiles.
Keep going forward. When the Israelites came out of Egypt who were they? A mixed multitude comprising the descendants of avraham and other non related peoples.
What does Israel mean? One who wrestles with god. What did the word mean as time went on? Physical descendants. What were Israelites commanded not to do? Change the word of God, add to it or take away from it. So focus on the original meaning, not our current definition. Stay conservative with the words.
What did the law say about non physical descendants who wanted to partake of the covenant? They were to be treated as natural born citizens thus giving them every lasting inheritance a physical descendant had. Why did they have to be reminded of this? Because they had already started to alter the meaning of the word Israel to mean something solely based on dna.
Keep going forward until the 2nd temple period. Another promise that non dna Israel would become priests.
New testament time and covenantly people are once again the same as before.
Israel is not solely based on dna. Actually DNA doesn't qualify you.
Israel were people who followed the one true God. The only God. To follow meant to trust and do his instructions because they are true and right. A little contesting an arguing is acceptable as all healthy relationships include such things.
Israel includes avrahamic dna as well as non avrahamic dna. Hence dna is not the qualifier. What qualifies you is that you follow the covenant. How many dna jews were exiled and destroyed in the OT? For what reason were they cast out? Because they abandoned the covenant. The covenant is the key.
Take Joseph as another example. His 2 sons come from an Egyptian. Both of those sons become Israelites and not just any israelite but leaders of tribes. Both share egyptian blood.
Remember when the disciples criticized the man who casts out demons in Yahshua's name because he wasn't following their group? Did Yahshuah support their claim? Nope.
Who were the 2 people who had great faith not seen in Israel? DNA jews or gentiles? So we have great faith gentiles and jewish disciples. All are included, why? Because they followed the covenant.
If you adopted a child and bore a child would one or the other get special treatment? One has your dna and the other doesn't? What keeps the family together? The willingness of the children to partake of the requirements of relationships. If the adopted son had the heart of Yahshuah but wasn't your blood would you exclude him? Now what if the blood born son had the heart of evil? Would he be allowed to partake of the family benefits?
What matters? Blood or character?
What is Israel? One who wrestles with god. No Genetic prerequisite needed, all are allowed to follow.
*additional thought. What is a hebrew? How could an individual start a dna strand? They can't, so if avraham was the first hebrew then what was his father? What about sarah? She wasn't a hebrew so that means she was a gentile and Yissac was again born from gentile and hebrew blood.
But that's not the point. The point is what does the word Hebrew mean? It means one who crosses over. Crosses over from what? What did avraham leave when he left his fathers home? He left polytheism and ungodliness behind and followed the 1 true god. He crossed over from wickedness to righteousness. That's what hebrew means.
Hebrew = one who leaves ungodliness and crosses over into a covenant with the one true god.
Israel = one who wrestles with god.
It's best to read the Gospel in full.
BecauseJesus was a Jew, salvation is through him and him alone.
This man makes the same mistake the Roman Catholics did in the early church. He divorces the Church from her Jewish Roots, which Paul warned against in Romans 11. God wanted the Church to remain humble and not forget her Jewish roots, which remain to this day. He did not want the Church to exalt herself above the supporting roots. In scripture both Israel and the Church are exhorted to remain humble before God, who chose both Israel and the Church to bring salvation to the world. The land of Israel was given to the Jews as an everlasting pissession. Old testament prophecies promised the return to the land of the Jews, in unbelief. National Israel will turn to the Messiah they rejected at his first coming when he returns at the end of the Great Tribulation to save them and mete out judgment on Israel's enemies. Nations will be judged according to how they treated Israel. I suspect there is some antisemitism at the root of this video, just as there was when the early church spurned its supporting Jewish roots. The Protestant Reformation carried this mistake forward. Remember "The children are beloved for the fathers' sake." (Hebrews 11)The fathers were the Patriarchs of Israel. The children are the Jews.
Everlasting possession (correction)
It's not likely the church is going to forget it's Jewish roots, since after all, we have the written word of God and the Holy Spirit to help keep us humble. Also one would have to believe the premillennial view is the correct one, which of course it isn't.
I think they forget or don't understand the Scriptures as the Jewish people should Abraham was not a Jewish neither was Isaac and Jacob wasn't Jewish until GOD changed his name to Israel & it has always been about Jesus Christ not about Israel we are all one in Christ & if any Jewish person is in Christ they are our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus period 🤷✝️
It depends on what Israel you are talking about.
Romans 9:6-8 KJVS
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: [7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. [8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
And if that isn’t clear enough.
Galatians 4:21-26 KJVS
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? [22] For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. [23] But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. [24] Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. [25] For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. [26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
I would add that it depends also on which Israel we are talking about - modern, politically created Israel or ancient, Biblical Israel. They're not the same. Which some people do not understand for some reason.
Salvation comes via Israel through the line of David and by the house of Judaea and His Name is Jesus. How does James apply the prophecy of Amos (which a dispen or ‘natural, literal’ reading would tell you that it applies entirely to the nation. Not so with the Apostle James, one of Christ’s closest disciples, who applies the entire “booth of David” to not just Jews in Jesus but every other people who believe in the name. The church is the tent, which Hebrews said is the model for spiritual life (not the temple remember Stephen). Jesus confirmed His kingship by foretelling of the Roman-Jewish War and destruction of Jerusalem. Nearly every other way of viewing it throws us back on the doctrine of Judaism and rejecting the faith that Jesus and Paul taught.
Additionally, national Israel is a godless nation, who reject Christ nearly to the man and if you were to see it disappear into the sea, it would be the hand of God but I do believe God preserves them throughout history so He might save a few but also to punish them for their hatred of Christ. The Jews broke all of their covenants, particularly those of the Moses God punished them, brought them back in mercy, who then broke His heart again with their traditions of men, and so He came Himself to give the proper interpretation and to be their king but they killed Him. He once more sent out Apostles to compel them to repent and believe on His Name but they murdered and tortured them. And you are trying to tell me God is going to exalt Israel above all other institutions of His government?
Maybe you should consider who the "new covenant" was given to, also maybe just read Romans 11:1,2. Shalom
The Lord has not finish with Israel. Yes, they are a godless nation, the bones and the flesh has been rebirth but in time they will have His Spirit and 'will look upon Him whome they pierced and more for Him as an only son'. Israel will have a massive revival but it will be or most likely will be during the time of Jacob's Trouble.
Reconsider what Jesus said in John 15:6, that no branch that does not abide in Jesus is to be cut off and thrown into fires, which has happened to Christ rejecting Jews starting with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I think this purging of unbelievers is not yet finished. Read Luke 19:27 and Jeremiah 19:11 where Jeremiah prophesied that the current Old Jerusalem will be completely destroyed never to be rebuilt again. Jesus cursed that old fig tree and it withered and died. He did say that it would again put on leaves, which it has done, but that it would NEVER bear fruit for God ever again. Paul then called the current Old Jerusalem Hagar which must be cast out. This I believe refers to all religions of works righteousness including Judaism. Don't be surprised if the current, Christ-rejecting Old Jerusalem is soon nuked, making it impossible to ever be rebuilt. Watch and learn. Isaiah 29:5-6. Kaboom.
@@edeancozzens3833 The prophets are full of God's promises of restoration of Israel to their land. I have collected at least about 30 verses of such promises. The genealogical descendants of Jacob will never cease to be a nation before the LORD:
Jer 31:
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 *If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.*
God also promised that He will return Israel to their land without EVER BEING UPROOTED again. So, if Israel was still uprooted, then this prophecy is NOT YET fulfilled.
Amos 9:
14 *I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel,*
and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine,
and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 *I will plant them on their land,*
*and they shall never again be uprooted*
*out of the land that I have given them,”*
says the LORD your God.
So, the final fate of the house of Israel will be *being planted in their land without ever being uprooted again.* Those promises were given without any conditions. So, if God does not keep those promises, you will not be sure if He will keep His promises to you as a Christian. But of course, He will keep ALL of His promises, because He is the only one true God who does not change.
You can read Ezekiel 36:16-28 containing God's 'blueprint' of how He will make Israel believe. He will bring them back to their land in unbelief, just like today, but then He will sprinkle water over them, etc, so that eventually they will accept their Messiah, Lord Jesus Christ.
The Northern kingdom of ten tribes were scattered throughout the gentile nations and lost their identity but Jesus came for them and said He had come to seek these lost sheep of the House of Israel.. they are meant to come together with the Southern kingdom of two tribes, the House of Judah, known as Jews. Jesus will return when the twelve tribes come together in Christ and for all nations to be saved. It is a Sovereign work of God.
I believe this actually started on the Day of Pentecost when representatives from all the tribes were in Jerusalem to hear Peter present the Gospel. When they believed they appointed a new head (see Hosea 1) and then went up from Jerusalem taking the Gospel to the whole world, back to their fellow Israelites all over Europe, and then out to the world, up from the Old Covenant into the New. The glory that was to come in Israel has happened through this process which we call the Church, but it was actually born again, remarried former Israelites living all over Europe under other names. They became the Christian nations of Europe which have taken the Gospel to the whole world by now. They are former Israelites plus whoever the Lord our God has called and continues to call.
I think it’s a mistake to try and interchange the term “Jew” and the term “Israel” - they are NOT scripturally interchangeable terms.
In Romans 2 Peter addresses the Jews from the House of Israel. In Romans 9-11 he is referring to the once divorced House of Israel. Two different things. Good job for seeing that.
@@edeancozzens3833 I appreciate it. Of coarse the Jews being of the the tribe of Judah originally and then the southern nation made up of Benjamin, Judah, and Levi, were a part of the greater Israel of YHWH, that does not mean the term Jew in any way IS Israel as a whole. To speak of Israel as though the term Jews were synonyms is in error.
Circumcision = sign of the covenant (genesis 17)
Abraham = first Hebrew
Hebrews = became Israelites
Israelites = produced jews from the tribe or judah.
When the covenant was made with avraham who was circumcised? It wasn't physical descendants outside of ishmael because issac wasn't yet born. All the people in the camp with avraham were gentiles. Ishmael was both a hebrew and an egyptian.
When the Israelites came out of Egypt to form the nation of Israel they were a mixed multitude.
When they dwelt in the land non avraham descendants who wished to be a part of Israel were given all the same rights as a natural citizen including physical inheritance.
Israel means wrestle with god. Anyone who wants to partake of the covenant is israel.
Partaking of the covenant means walking by the ways of the god of Avraham, Yissac, and Yacov.
Walking by the ways of the God of Avraham, Yissac, and Yacov requires the proper understanding of what certain statements in the Tanakh mean in their proper historical context.
Sadly, those that possessed the oracles of God failed at properly delivering their message.
Romans 11:1,2 Simple, clear and forever true. In humility gentiles (all the other nations) can just accept being grafted in to the vine.
@@chuckabean1 We have been grafted onto the vine, but we should never think we are "better" than the vine. I wish Christians had been more humble and charitable during the past 2000 years than we were toward the Jews. More Jews might have been open to accepting Jesus as Messiah if we had.
Nanos explains Romans 11 in a new light in his book _Reading Romans within Judaism_. There he argues that the branches were not completely broken off of their tree but have been “bent aside” or “broken” (but not broken off completely) and one non-native branch has been grafted in “among them,” as Paul says. He also argues that when Paul speaks of them being “hardened,” he is talking about a callous that has formed on the native olive branches in order to protect and preserve them, to keep them safe. In addition to arguing based off of how certain Greek terms were used in the ancient world, this is also how olive grafts were performed.
@@dm-gq5uj ....mind you, those who professed to be Christians who were also involved in pogroms were not born-again or real Christians.
@@chuckabean1John 15 the True Vine is Jesus and not Israel. Galatians 3 St Paul states clearly that God’s promised to Abram was fulfilled in Jesus and the heirs of this promise is to those with faith in Jesus Christ. Not every Christian is bewitched by Judaizers.
Mr Kinzer, geneologic Israel, stayed in the land. They are the Palestinian Jews of antiquity. The Arab Jews. The Persian Jews, etc., are not of European origin, are not the descendants of Japheth.
In the Bible there are two Jerusalems: The current old one that continues to reject King Jesus. and will not let Him rule over them. This is Hagar that must and will be cast out. Kaboom one way or another. The New Jerusalem, the city whose builder and architect is God, will come down from Heaven. That is where we will live and from which Jesus will reign. Just as in the first century, when you see the armies coming, sell and move away. Those who "stand with" that old Jerusalem will suffer and die with them. Read 2 John 7-11. The current Christ-rejecting inhabitants of that Old Jerusalem are antichrists. That's what John said.
DESOLATE
❤
So, NT Wright's version of replacement theology says that Jesus replaced Israel with Himself...?
Jesus is the only Israel there is. For He is the only one who has overcome.
@@lawrence1318 The relationship between Jesus and Israel is not a zero-sum game. Jesus the Messiah didn't come to replace His people but to redeem them, and He will accomplish this in due time.
But since Jesus was from Israel, all of Israel wasn't replaced. You must be born again. Not all Israel is Israel now in God's eyes, only those who have been born again in Christ. The Butterfly has come out of the cocoon in Christ.
@@edeancozzens3833 Christ came to save his people Israel, not to disown them and replace them with the "church".
Israel was the type. Jesus is the fulfillment. See the Servant of the LORD passages in isaiah. Paul also says elsewhere that the abrahamic covenant was made to abraham and to his seed, that is Christ.
No middle man.
Jesus is the true Israel.
One body of Christ.
One people of God.
The pattern in scripture is that once a type is fulfilled, you dont go back to the types and shadows.
Ie. No more animal sacrifices because of Jesus' sacrifice
Notice that in Romans 2 Paul speaks exclusively to Jews, which I think he is addressing to the House of Judah since the coming of Christ. In Romans 9-11 he uses the word Israel almost exclusively. I think Paul is addressing the House of Israel in these chapters post Christ. Paul understood the division that had happened centuries before after the death of Solomon in which all of the original Israel divided into the Ten Tribes of the House of Israel from the two and a half tribes in the south which were from then called The House of Judah or Jews who went to Babylon and back. There then in the time of Paul this question of what would happen to both now that Christ had come. He then addresses this in Romans. In chapter 2 he's addressing the House of Judah. In 9 to 11 he's addressing the house of Israel. Two different but overlapping groups which makes it confusing.
One problem that Paul would have understood which most today are unaware of is that in Torah law once a man divorced his wife he was not allowed to remarry her. In Hosea 1 God clearly divorced the House of Israel. Does this mean they were therefore gone forever? The question in Paul's time would have been what happens to the divorced House of Israel since Christ has come. Did His coming change anything? Were they still divorced from YHWH and was that condition forever still? Are they still divorced and never to be reconnected because the Torah Law said they could not be? Notice that in Romans 9-11 Paul quotes Hosea 1 which is very strong evidence that he was indeed thinking of the divorced House of Israel, proving he is thinking of the ten plus tribes of divorced House of Israel in chapters 9 to 11.
A question that would have been on many people's minds in 50 AD was if Judah therefore by default gets the inheritance promised to Ephraim and the subsequent House of Israel because they had been divorced. Did Jesus' coming change anything related to that?
I think that one of the reasons Paul wrote Romans was to answer these questions. The answer Paul provides is that God solved this, getting around His own Torah Law on divorce, by the groom coming and dying and being resurrected to be the living God promised in Hosea 1 so that God could remarry the divorced House of Israel under a new Covenant just as promised in Hosea one. Without considering this, many Bible scholars today like these two miss Paul's point in chapters 9-11, which is that through Christ it is now possible for the once divorced House of Israel, which by 50 AD were scattered under other names living apart from God outside of the Covenant, could now be remarried under the new Covenant. Peter also makes this connection to Hosea 1 in I Peter 2 and he starts his epistle in I Peter 1 addressed to all twelve tribes as James done in his epistle. By the time of the writing of these two books, the once divorced House of Israel was being re-covenanted under the New Covenant. But not all of them, as Paul says in Romans 9:6-9, where he clearly says "not all Israel is part of this new born again Israel" in God's eyes, which by the way is made up of former House of Israel once divorced and scattered now being remarried under the New Covenant. As Jesus put it to Nicodemus who was a Jew from the House of Judah, "YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN." To Peter who was also of Judah, He put it this way: "Who do you say that I am." "Thou art the Christ" said Peter. Jesus then affirmed that and acknowledged that this had been revealed to Peter and that it would be on this rock of the revelation of Jesus as the Christ that the church would be built! (Catholics got it wrong by saying the the rock was Peter. It was the revelation that God gave to Peter which we are to believe and confess, which Paul then explains in of all places, Romans 10, right in the middle of 9-11. Born again Israel is now the Israel that God recognizes, all of which will be saved. Not who all who are from the original physical Israel are now Israel, only the ones to whom God reveals Christ to and who confess Him. That in my view is the all of Israel who will be saved, and these are from the House of Judah like Peter and Paul, Mary and Martha, and from the former House of Israel who had been divorced and scattered, mostly up into Europe and beyond, and as many from all the tribes and nations of the whole world as the Lord our God shall call.
It is also important to point out that in the Torah Law, anyone from any tribe who did not go to Passover and apply the blood of the Passover Lamb was expelled from Israel and the covenants, and according to Jesus in John 15:6 could not bear fruit pleasing to God and would be cut off and thrown into fires, which is exactly what happened to the Christ-rejecting Jews in 70 AD and beyond to this day. They have excluded themselves by rejecting the Passover Lamb who was Jesus. They divorced themselves when God had provided forgiveness for this sins in breaking the Mosaic Covenant. No one stands based on works of righteousness. Such a person is Hagar Old Jerusalem which Paul says in Galatians must be cast out. They can call themseles Jews and Israel all day long, but that matters not now that the Passover Lamb has come. According to John 3:36 they remain under their sin and under the wrath of God, and Luke 19:27 is likely about to happen, which coincides with Jeremiah 19:11.
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Kinzer lost.
Wright won.
Quite obvious
You are wrong brother or sister. Here , we are not observing who has won or lost but we are just dealing with tuff scriptures , difficult passages to understand. Please don't bring this kind of battle in this wonderful debate.
Build us , don't disturb us. Sorry
@@munyeragwephilemon4868
2 Tim 3:7
“Always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. “
...so, they can’t both be correct. And it’s absurd to say there is no true answer.