It is interesting to watch other techs diagnostic processes. Our shop sees so many parasitic draw problems (many are referrals from other shops). Patience and persistence are key! My own diagnostic process has evolved over the years. For the last few years, I pull the car inside before we go home at night. Open all the doors, hood and trunk and close any latches, door switches, etc. Leave a battery maintainer on the battery with the battery connected. The keys are that the entire vehicle gets to ambient temperature and the draw heats up enough to reveal itself using a thermal imager. It doesn't take much. Just found a 200mA draw on a driver's door switch on a 2000 Avalon a few weeks ago that several others hadn't been able to find. Sometimes the temp difference between the faulty component and the surrounding area is just one or two degrees. This doesn't always work (nothing always works) and good imagers aren't cheap. I have found more draws MUCH more quickly than I had been able to in years past. Great videos Ivan!
You can't use a battery "maintainer" reliably for this. You need a charger with a set voltage above the mnminal battey volyage and a current output higher than the known draw.
@@psdaengr911 I'm sure he's referring to an at least 20 amp power source, which you need to have if the ignition has to stay on for any length of time.
You just have to admire a mechanic that goe's to the customer and won't stop till the problem's resolved . The patience is stunning. This is the reason I love watching this mechanic.
this is also the advantage of being a "free" mechanic..someone who doesn't have to answer to a shop. So many employed mechanics aren't paid enough to diagnose. Shops are volume oriented so they don't have the time to do in depth analysis. They're basically parts changers.
5 amp draw: my guess is a major module is defective. Let's see what happens 🤘😝🤘 EDIT: This is part 1? NOOOOOO!!!! I've got to wait; do all video parts, then upload, I can't wait, no one has time for that these days 📼 (Be Kind and Rewind). Best channel for diag on RUclips, love the content, thank you for sharing :)
Not sure about the MKC series, but earlier MKZs had issues with lift gate modules failing and causing battery drain. Maybe pull the connector from the module and see if the draw clears, just to eliminate from the list. The infotainment system illuminating seems odd.Too many electrics equals too many potential nightmares.
Can confirm. The liftgate module is right under the liftgate cover it’s the big square lol the only big square under there. I had a latch motor fail which sent 12v to the signal side which intern killed a driver in the module. Talk about a pain to diag lol.
This diagnosis was definitely leading me towards multiple variables but thanks to Ivan coming through and narrowing it down we got it and also a new understanding of these modern pos’s !
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics: That's usually how i bill these kinda jobs; i look back at the wrong turns and tail-chasing and ask myself, "If i had to do it again RIGHT NOW, how long is reasonable?" And there's my time 😉.
I put this as a reply to someone else's comment, but I'm going to put it here too, in case it helps someone. We had a friend whose brand new car had a similar issue. He had been going back and forth with the dealership for months, and was about to invoke the lemon law and make them take it back when he found the issue himself by accident. He had a weather station in his yard which was waking the car up every few minutes, and that was the cause of his constantly dead battery. He got rid of the weather station, and the issue went away. I'm not going to pretend I know how that works, as I have resisted the technology revolution just about like the Amish, but as I understand it the weather station was wireless and on the same frequency as something in the car, so it kept waking up the car every time it sent data.
OH NO!! I have made comments on your channel about cars that in my opinion should have gone to the junkyard a long time ago, but now you are working on my Lincoln that I bought 4 months ago, the odometer just turned to 40K yesterday.
If you have access to technical service bulletins from the manufacturer, check to see if there's information in any bulletins. I used to do the same thing, pull fuses. Start with the ones powering the BCM to verify nothing else under the hood or inside the vehicle is powered up and staying on. Then if that works, branch out by disconnecting the items being controlled by the BCM including lights, motors, etc. Sometimes the long way around is the short way around.
Ivan, I'd go old school. Throw 5 gallons of gas on it and then a match and call it good! Love your patience and tenacity even in the dark. Haven't seen the thermo camera but that could be a good approach. Regardless, looking forward to Part II. Thanks for Sharing!
Ivan my next approach would be to get the customer to make space in the garage and push the car in out of the cold. Try to find what powers that center module. Maybe it’s shorted or wire is rubbed through to another power. If possible start pulling fuses for other items on that center display. Wow and todays cars are only going to get more complex. Waiting for part 2 😊
I would go next down to the starter motor to check for any internal shorts. I had such big draw up to 2.5 amp on JDM Mitsubishi Delica related to starter motor few years ago. Tested, replaced the starter and never had draw again. Great stuff Ivan! Cheers!
We used the diagnostic process they presented in the two videos. Pulling fuses one by one didn't isolate the draw, figured out 22 modules were staying awake in a 15 MKC pulling 1200 mA. Isolated the gateway, wave traced with a 4 ch labscope the 3 HS buses and the MS bus, found abnormal wave forms on the MS bus, traced it to the liftgate module. Replaced the liftgate module, programmed it, and bingo! 16mA draw once everything goes to sleep like it should. Would have helped if the customer had mentioned the trunk doesn't like to open sometimes. Now it works fine.
I know what you meant by it, but I still nominate “You can’t just pull fuses, because stuff stops working!” as the best out of context sentence of 2022 so far. Certainly got a laugh out of me!
No car sold in the United States has door locks that require power to be unlocked from the inside . Very few have door locks that can't be unlocked from outside with a key. Hopefully Sandy Monro's obsession with removing exterior door handles and locks won't be taken as a design criteria for future car designs . The small amount of aerodynamic gain and cost reduction don't justify the added complexity.
I'd do exactly what you are doing: remove fuses until the current draw disappears. From there you'd continue to unplug devices on that fuse circuit until the parasite is pinpointed. Simple - but far from easy.
I CANNOT WAIT for part 2 on the Lincoln Mkc! I have a rear defogger issue, the switch lights up, the relay clicks however, I carry alot in my vehicle & need to clear it out, & take apart the plastic panels & track the rear defrogger wire front & back to see if there is current up by the dash/Bcm or if there us a short in the wiring? 07 pontiac G5 2.2 eco-tec/cobalt platform. I would love a quote from you, a person who can clearly do the job!!!
Probably something like the seat heaters or steering wheel heater being permanently on. You may have been close when you talked about the infrared scanner.
This one is gonna be an interesting outcome. I think there is a short which is causing one of the modules to not go to sleep which in turn keeps one of two modules on the can bus awake.
I've got a babied 1995 MB 320 (77K miles) which has been sitting in my garage for years and thanks to your recent MB video, I have a pretty good idea of what the problem may be; a deteriorated engine wiring harness and now the attendant problems of a vehicle which has been sitting for years.
I had a Lincoln last year that the rear wiper didn't make it all the way to the park position and the wiper motor would pull 5 amps every few mins trying to get to park (not sure if it was thermal shutdown that it wasn't a constant draw or if the control board was stopping and trying again. Either way only a few mins to find this problem with a thermal imaging gun!
My prediction is a CAN network problem/glitch that doesn't signal the modules to go to sleep, a defective telemetry/cellular unit or a door lock that keeps energizing the door lock motor even if it has reached its endstop.
A friend of ours had a problem like this that he finally traced to a weather station in his yard. The weather station updated every few minutes and was tuned to the same frequency as something on his car, so it was waking the car up every few minutes. I'm guessing it was probably a bluetooth issue, but since I have resisted both the cell phone revolution and the modern car revolution, I'm not going to act like I understand how any of that works.
Wake on LAN is common. Sleep on LAN is not, because time-out circuits and sw are cheap and simple. You could hear, feel and see the effect of a door motor energizing by disconnecting the battery or main body fuse with all the door manually unlocked and then locked. If the car has a remote entry/start system, it may have a stuck output. If a newer one it could have proximity detection with energised outouts whenever the fob is near.
I like the idea with the thermal camera. If it’s cool enough overnight - unplug the battery and let the car cold soak. In the AM hook the battery back up and see what area inside / out starts to heat up. The lit up cabin controls may lead somewhere but is there another ‘hot’ spot or two ?
After seeing the fault codes in the pre scan the trunk latch motor fault got my intention immediately. My next step would be to open al doors en close the door latches and keep the ignition off with the key away from the car. Second step to unplug the trunk latch motor. Third step is to put a scope on the mid speed can bus because that's keeping the audio modules awake. I the car has a electric trunk the module is probably also on the mid speed can.
This is SO impressive- I have the same car same issue. Replacing this module today to see if it fixes it!! If it doesn’t, is this type of diagnostic service covered by warranty?! I may be calling you all😭🤣
I found a 70ma slow drain on a Honda odyssey from the radio. It turned out to be a aftermarket kit installed in back of radio that allowed it to play music thru AUX from a iPhone /iPod. Uninstalled it and drain went away. And got a Blue tooth enabled FM transmitter. That plugs into 12v adaptor. After removing the kit it went to 20-30ma drain which is acceptable when car is off.
The training and education and subsequent experience to diagnose these gremlins is increasingly valuable to new (and experienced) mechanics. Wrenching is good and necessary for mechanics and surgeons, but diagnosis and the least invasive cures are the future and where income will come from.
@@nickmalone3143 looks like Ivan has all the work he needs and could afford to walk away knowing the parts cannon will sum to more than his diagnosis and still not solve some problems. I don't work for people who can't factor true value. People need to realise an hourly rate includes a percentage of the hours worked in a career to gain the experience to get to a satisfactory conclusion.
@@nickmalone3143 For a 20 year old rustbucket, no. For a ~4 year old, or less, it's a different circumstance. No one wants to pay big bucks to replace a blown a/c compressor either, until one day in June.
Keep the IKT key fob 15 plus feet away from the vehicle. Prevents triggering approach detection. Ford IDS has a live network monitor, it can be ran to see what modules are sending traffic. Look forward to seeing what you find.
this guy is cool. I was in a bad mood because I just quit. I got uplifting attitude now. I thought he was going to say my side girl was at fault? unless Lincoln is her aka? but I just subscribed to this channel. Pine Hollow Auto would make an excellent instructor one day. where do I donate at?
Many issues with those Lincoln most is power liftgate module ,some need a reflash and others need to be repalce , so since your video was made the 12/17/ 2021 you already found the gremlins!!
I would put a commercial battery charger in the tool line,, one of the big ones that put out alot of amps, you can charge a battery from dead to full very fast. they can put out plenty of amps to jump cars off too. it will take up some space, but it will save u alot of time considering abt 40 percent of calls when u get there have dead batteries.. either parasitic draw, or they crank the car over every 5 minutes hoping its going to start
Wow now this is a real puzzler case study. Gotta love modern cars NOT ! Looks like more research is needed on the wiring interactions. Can't wait to see what you find.
Sounds like Lincoln or Ford need to add a "PMM" computer for Power Management. It would monitor the power to all the other computers, and generate trouble codes based on the tests performed after each power-down. Yup, that's the key - more computers and wiring! Oh, and with automatic firmware updates.
It would be very easy to add built-in ammeters to monitor whole modules and not just individual sensors. When you get the fault "short to ground or open circuit" it's because the current is out of range.
To add on to that ford rolled out a program to do updates to vehicles “over the air” very interesting. Ford can even potentially fix your car without you coming to be serviced😉
Should have the door switches depressed or latches flipped up on any doors you plan on opening during diagnosis. Some vehicles don't go to sleep for hours. Another great tip,, when doing this test on BMW's take out the fuse for the alarm,,, some of them have sensors on the outside of the car that lights up the dash if someone walks close to the car,, some of those sensors also start cameras recording.
My 17 MKZ when I first got it had the bad ACM firmware, which causes the CD player to continuously try to eject a disc without one in there. Required a firmware update and a new AGM because it destroyed the battery from consistently drawing. Dealer in Philly I bought the car from had to replace the battery. That car was awesome, revel ultima was the best but the 6f55 trans wasn’t too happy with my ethanol tuning. 10r80 in the mustang is much better :). Can’t wait for part 2.
SSM 46411 - ACM firmware needs to be HS7T-14D099-AC or higher. I don’t own the car anymore so I can’t tell you what it was flashed too. But I had several weird software issues fixed with newer updates to it. Either done at the dealer or using forscan/ucds
RTM is what the key fob sends signals to to the car for all its functions and starting the car😉. Also TPMs goes through it too. Long story how I figured that out at the dealership lol.
My guess is something is on the network staying awake waking up the radio. Had a f150 that with the fuel accounting module plugged in would have a draw
Yeah, the radio does a few things in these new Fords. Door dinger, active noise cancellation, sometimes, engine sound, turn signal click?? the traffic safety system beeps and chimes. Hmmmmmmmmm, can't wait for more! Speaking of draws, Toyota had a service bulletin about batteries draining when vehicles were parked in a remote area, or an area without any cell service. The 3g phone networks are going to start shutting down this year and even a few 21-22 my cars still use 3g for connected systems. Keep this in mind if you are searching for a drain, or reports start popping up in coming months. Might affect more than just toyota as this module attempts to find a network that no longer exists.
With a 5 Amp draw I would have a bigger battery charger on it have my thermal imaging gun out. That is gonna make some heat and it should show itself. We had one a few weeks back that when pulling fuses it reset the HVAC system and the drain stopped.
Yeah, 5 amps at 12 volts is 60 watts. So either something is glowing as bright as a 60 watt bulb, or something is warming up 60 watts equivalent of heat. Especially as it's Winter in 'merica at the moment, snow on the ground in some areas, things outside should be real cold. Yes those audio controls were glowing in the dark (maybe 5 watts worth ?), but NOT 60 watts worth. If he has some heat detecting camera, that should help narrow things down.
Here's my vote for the lift gate. Maybe it's a faulty switch and the motor still is trying to close it. Just guessing. Will it resolve in part 2, or is there a part 3 and 4?
Had something similar on a Kia Optima. If I unplugged the radio it would drop from 1.8amps down to like 0.3ish but it would fluctuate around. Something was keeping the front module awake. I found the wire in the under dash fuse box that had the fluctuations. It led me back to the front harness above the fender liner, when i pulled it apart it was full of water, the car had been in a collision before and probably set with the harness unplugged for some time and caused the hood switch wires and a few others to constantly keep shorting out.
Famous last words; "4 amp draw, this should not take long to find!" LOL! As to what would "my" next approach be? Call Ivan at Pine Hollow Diagnostics for a appointment! Looking forward to your update to this!
I'm a Benz dealership tech......I always LOL when I see a RUclips video labeled "find parasitic draws quickly" and the car being worked on is something like a 2002 Honda Civic. 😂
I'm pretty sure Ivan has an FLR One scanner. Let the car set with the battery disconnected for an hour. Reconnect the battery without touching the key. Assuming the amp draw on those three fuses is still 5 amps the heat from these amp draws will "pop" from the background. At this point I would be praying. Why three fuses (three circuits)? From Ivan's wiring diagram walk thru it appears the BCM is the at the crossroads of this web of three. At this point I would be hoping the amp draw was the electric heater in the seats, the rear window defroster, and the audio power amplifier. Three things I would disconnect at the device. The car will run without them. Another idea already mentioned was the tail gate latch/lift. Another "easy" component to run the FLR scanner on and to disconnect.
If there is a gateway up front, or a string of modules connected to another module, many modules would be hidden behind that sleeping branch out point. Not as easy as an older car where all live on the same branch.
Seems like you are holding back some info on this one to keep us guessing? I don't have a thermal camera or a scanner but I would have continued to pull fuses until the draw stopped. 5amps x 12 volts = 60 watts of heat should glow pretty good in those temps. Heated Steering wheel, Heated seats, switch or solenoid suck on, etc.
This electrical/software insanity has to stop! My 2013 Subaru Impreza finally had a completely flat battery from leaving an interior light on. I found out that there is only ONE physical lock on the car, to the driver's door! I could open all the other doors, hood and trunk once inside the car, but only from inside it. I couldn't even roll the car outside the garage because the shift interlock for the automatic transmission is also electrically powered! If I still drove a manual transmission, that would not have been a problem, I would have just put the transmission in neutral and released the parking brake. I was then frustrated in my fruitless search for my plug-into-the-wall charger but was rescued by my Li-ion jump pack that started the car. Heaven help me once the battery gets old and won't hold a charge or my alternator dies! There MUST be physical backups for electrical systems! I might be satisfied with being able to plug in a 9 V battery to say, unlock the shifter and get the car to roll. There are similar problems that could have work-arounds for no battery situations. Thankfully, I do not have an automatic starter or the like to get confused by a bluetooth weather station!
Those Lincolns are full of electronics...did I mention full of electronics? Known for some modules or the computer NOT going to sleep every time which kills the battery. What to do next? Install a battery disconnect switch that can be turned on/off from inside the drivers seat area !
My moms 2017 Ford Escape had a lift gate error causing the car not to start properly, thankfully it was under warranty, unfortunately the extended warranty is running out but the problems are not, hers has 33k, thanks ford
I can think of a hundred different things to do instead of messing with electrical crap on a Stinkin Lincoln in cold weather.....LOL....hats off to ya Ivan
Cant pull fuses because stuff stops working....that was like my old job trying to troubleshoot equipment with the power off when a new safety guy started running the show (why I quit). If I was Ivan I'd keep the fuses in and keep doing current checks breaking down the circuit more and more. Also what about your fancy thermal imager tool to find heat? Could be helpful....
It's a newer car, hasn't been through a flood or someone put 120V to the battery, it occurred suddenly, I assume over an amp draw when asleep is not to specs for any car. I would look for a single point of failure because of the suddenness and age of the car, a ground problem (component, connector, box) or software, not going to sleep problem (unplug the computer and see what happens, is the android radio always powered another computer). Also thought of heat camera in the chilly weather you could follow warm wires to the source at that amperage, it doesn't seem to be a single source and multiple components shorting at once without a reason in a newer car is not probable. Multiple wires mean multiple paths to ground and not just some component shorted and it may not be a path to ground at all but live components that shouldn't be live, maybe a switch supplying power to multiple items. I would pull fuses till acceptable draw and list all the suspects, even with the 2 fuses/connector pulled the draw too high was the live engine computer drawing most of the remaining amp, try to come up with a single conclusion/fix for all the suspects
Bet the battery is toast. We got a vehicle cheap because it had a parasitic draw that multiple shops had failed to find. The previous owner had put in a brand new "platinum" $300 battery 3 months ago. Fixing the draw was easy (GM instrument cluster, how could shops fail to find this? All they had to do was search "GM parasitic draw" and it would be the first hit?). Afterwards, everything seemed fine but after a few days/weeks the battery would randomly be dead. Charge it up and it worked fine for days, then later it would be dead again. Yep, problem was a shorted cell in the 3 month old "platinum" battery. The previous owner didn't keep the receipt either, so a 3 month old battery went to recycling. Replaced it with a Costco battery and everything has been good since.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
It is interesting to watch other techs diagnostic processes. Our shop sees so many parasitic draw problems (many are referrals from other shops). Patience and persistence are key! My own diagnostic process has evolved over the years. For the last few years, I pull the car inside before we go home at night. Open all the doors, hood and trunk and close any latches, door switches, etc. Leave a battery maintainer on the battery with the battery connected. The keys are that the entire vehicle gets to ambient temperature and the draw heats up enough to reveal itself using a thermal imager. It doesn't take much. Just found a 200mA draw on a driver's door switch on a 2000 Avalon a few weeks ago that several others hadn't been able to find. Sometimes the temp difference between the faulty component and the surrounding area is just one or two degrees. This doesn't always work (nothing always works) and good imagers aren't cheap. I have found more draws MUCH more quickly than I had been able to in years past. Great videos Ivan!
You can't use a battery "maintainer" reliably for this. You need a charger with a set voltage above the mnminal battey volyage and a current output higher than the known draw.
@@psdaengr911 I'm sure he's referring to an at least 20 amp power source, which you need to have if the ignition has to stay on for any length of time.
I have an imager in my Amazon cart. Anxiously waiting until I can click checkout on that one.
You just have to admire a mechanic that goe's to the customer and won't stop till the problem's resolved . The patience is stunning. This is the reason I love watching this mechanic.
1.8.22. Ivan is just like a Pitbull™️, Once he latches on, he doesn’t let go‼️😝
He is not only a mechanic. He is a rocket science computer technician with a wizard hat.
this is also the advantage of being a "free" mechanic..someone who doesn't have to answer to a shop. So many employed mechanics aren't paid enough to diagnose. Shops are volume oriented so they don't have the time to do in depth analysis. They're basically parts changers.
After the flood videos, the first thing I'd check for is a high tide line or starfish in the vents.
Bill Priceless, you made my day LOL
5 amp draw: my guess is a major module is defective. Let's see what happens 🤘😝🤘 EDIT: This is part 1? NOOOOOO!!!! I've got to wait; do all video parts, then upload, I can't wait, no one has time for that these days 📼 (Be Kind and Rewind). Best channel for diag on RUclips, love the content, thank you for sharing :)
Nope, one headlight is stuck on, he just can't notice it :)
😆
Electric heat is keeping engine warm 🤣
Not sure about the MKC series, but earlier MKZs had issues with lift gate modules failing and causing battery drain. Maybe pull the connector from the module and see if the draw clears, just to eliminate from the list. The infotainment system illuminating seems odd.Too many electrics equals too many potential nightmares.
The MKZ is and always has been a car with a trunk lid. Not a crossover/suv with a lift gate. This is the Lincoln version of the Ford Edge.
Can confirm. The liftgate module is right under the liftgate cover it’s the big square lol the only big square under there. I had a latch motor fail which sent 12v to the signal side which intern killed a driver in the module. Talk about a pain to diag lol.
@@chadvalliere8697No, the MKC is Ford Escape based.
The best!! We need you training reps all over the country, though you are doing that in a way with these great videos.
This diagnosis was definitely leading me towards multiple variables but thanks to Ivan coming through and narrowing it down we got it and also a new understanding of these modern pos’s !
Thanks for calling me in on this one Josiah! We'll nail the next one in under an hour :))
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics: That's usually how i bill these kinda jobs; i look back at the wrong turns and tail-chasing and ask myself, "If i had to do it again RIGHT NOW, how long is reasonable?" And there's my time 😉.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Oh, is this a clue? Is this a stereo upgrade gone bad?
I put this as a reply to someone else's comment, but I'm going to put it here too, in case it helps someone. We had a friend whose brand new car had a similar issue. He had been going back and forth with the dealership for months, and was about to invoke the lemon law and make them take it back when he found the issue himself by accident. He had a weather station in his yard which was waking the car up every few minutes, and that was the cause of his constantly dead battery. He got rid of the weather station, and the issue went away. I'm not going to pretend I know how that works, as I have resisted the technology revolution just about like the Amish, but as I understand it the weather station was wireless and on the same frequency as something in the car, so it kept waking up the car every time it sent data.
Now that is crazy!
Yes, Ford hotline engineers have told me the same thing.
And this is why I will do a three-year lease on my next car instead of buying it outright as I have in the past.
OH NO!! I have made comments on your channel about cars that in my opinion
should have gone to the junkyard a long time ago, but now you are working on
my Lincoln that I bought 4 months ago, the odometer just turned to 40K yesterday.
If you have access to technical service bulletins from the manufacturer, check to see if there's information in any bulletins. I used to do the same thing, pull fuses. Start with the ones powering the BCM to verify nothing else under the hood or inside the vehicle is powered up and staying on.
Then if that works, branch out by disconnecting the items being controlled by the BCM including lights, motors, etc.
Sometimes the long way around is the short way around.
Ivan, I'd go old school. Throw 5 gallons of gas on it and then a match and call it good! Love your patience and tenacity even in the dark. Haven't seen the thermo camera but that could be a good approach. Regardless, looking forward to Part II. Thanks for Sharing!
Ivan my next approach would be to get the customer to make space in the garage and push the car in out of the cold. Try to find what powers that center module. Maybe it’s shorted or wire is rubbed through to another power. If possible start pulling fuses for other items on that center display. Wow and todays cars are only going to get more complex. Waiting for part 2 😊
Whats puzzling is there are parasitic draws on three separate circuits ....bcm common to all ?
I would go next down to the starter motor to check for any internal shorts. I had such big draw up to 2.5 amp on JDM Mitsubishi Delica related to starter motor few years ago. Tested, replaced the starter and never had draw again. Great stuff Ivan! Cheers!
Except the current is going to the BCM 😉
We used the diagnostic process they presented in the two videos. Pulling fuses one by one didn't isolate the draw, figured out 22 modules were staying awake in a 15 MKC pulling 1200 mA. Isolated the gateway, wave traced with a 4 ch labscope the 3 HS buses and the MS bus, found abnormal wave forms on the MS bus, traced it to the liftgate module. Replaced the liftgate module, programmed it, and bingo! 16mA draw once everything goes to sleep like it should. Would have helped if the customer had mentioned the trunk doesn't like to open sometimes. Now it works fine.
You had me rolling when you said "you can't pull fuses because stuff stops working". I know what you meant it just sounded oxymoronic.
Makes parasitic draw testing a pain and customers don’t understand why repair bills get racked up so high so fast
The RTM is what’s responsible for communicating with the key fob, that’s why the fob wasn’t working with the fuse out.
This diag has a Pico scope in it's future. Very interesting. Thanks Ivan!
Quite an interesting diagnosis dilemma there Ivan.. looking forward to the next video and the fix. Cheers!
I know what you meant by it, but I still nominate “You can’t just pull fuses, because stuff stops working!” as the best out of context sentence of 2022 so far. Certainly got a laugh out of me!
No car sold in the United States has door locks that require power to be unlocked from the inside . Very few have door locks that can't be unlocked from outside with a key. Hopefully Sandy Monro's obsession with removing exterior door handles and locks won't be taken as a design criteria for future car designs . The small amount of aerodynamic gain and cost reduction don't justify the added complexity.
I'd do exactly what you are doing: remove fuses until the current draw disappears.
From there you'd continue to unplug devices on that fuse circuit until the parasite is pinpointed.
Simple - but far from easy.
I CANNOT WAIT for part 2 on the Lincoln Mkc! I have a rear defogger issue, the switch lights up, the relay clicks however, I carry alot in my vehicle & need to clear it out, & take apart the plastic panels & track the rear defrogger wire front & back to see if there is current up by the dash/Bcm or if there us a short in the wiring? 07 pontiac G5 2.2 eco-tec/cobalt platform. I would love a quote from you, a person who can clearly do the job!!!
Probably something like the seat heaters or steering wheel heater being permanently on. You may have been close when you talked about the infrared scanner.
Good one!! please upload more issues you find and , possible solutions please! Great Work!!
good Job so far, I use a Bluetooth DMM that helps, so you dont have to go in and out of the car to see the meter , you can see the data on your phone.
Amazing
This one is gonna be an interesting outcome. I think there is a short which is causing one of the modules to not go to sleep which in turn keeps one of two modules on the can bus awake.
I've got a babied 1995 MB 320 (77K miles) which has been sitting in my garage for years and thanks to your recent MB video, I have a pretty good idea of what the problem may be; a deteriorated engine wiring harness and now the attendant problems of a vehicle which has been sitting for years.
That car is definitely worth getting back on the road. Before you go to start it pour a teaspoon of oil into each cylinder.
I had a Lincoln last year that the rear wiper didn't make it all the way to the park position and the wiper motor would pull 5 amps every few mins trying to get to park (not sure if it was thermal shutdown that it wasn't a constant draw or if the control board was stopping and trying again. Either way only a few mins to find this problem with a thermal imaging gun!
A big disconnect switch on the battery ground cable conveniently mounted on the driver side of the hood should solve this...8-)
Have the customer get on their knees on the passenger side and pull the plug like he did also works.
So would an extra long extension cable to a charger ...uh very long
My guess is that the hatch motor is stalled trying to close the hatch because the open close switch isn’t being triggered to closed position.
Those latch assemblies are so complex they’re like a mini computer
Ivan's comment of '....how interesting...' when a problem occurs is not what _I_ would say in that situation myself
You are slick Ivan! You ask us for guesses so you can use our experience and ideas to earn you money. All this time I have figured out your POA
My prediction is a CAN network problem/glitch that doesn't signal the modules to go to sleep, a defective telemetry/cellular unit or a door lock that keeps energizing the door lock motor even if it has reached its endstop.
A friend of ours had a problem like this that he finally traced to a weather station in his yard. The weather station updated every few minutes and was tuned to the same frequency as something on his car, so it was waking the car up every few minutes. I'm guessing it was probably a bluetooth issue, but since I have resisted both the cell phone revolution and the modern car revolution, I'm not going to act like I understand how any of that works.
Wake on LAN is common. Sleep on LAN is not, because time-out circuits and sw are cheap and simple. You could hear, feel and see the effect of a door motor energizing by disconnecting the battery or main body fuse with all the door manually unlocked and then locked. If the car has a remote entry/start system, it may have a stuck output. If a newer one it could have proximity detection with energised outouts whenever the fob is near.
@@thirzapeevey2395 that is nuts!
@@thirzapeevey2395 Probably on the same frequency as the key fob.
If I recall correct some newer Fords have a tsb on something to do with the RTM I can’t remember what all it was about
Very interesting. I always love the parasitic draw videos and the approach taken to find them.
Great videos here Ivan.. love them! Possibly a short in one of the harness wires to the fuse block.. or ecm?? Can't wait for part 2.. thanks
I like the idea with the thermal camera. If it’s cool enough overnight - unplug the battery and let the car cold soak. In the AM hook the battery back up and see what area inside / out starts to heat up. The lit up cabin controls may lead somewhere but is there another ‘hot’ spot or two ?
After seeing the fault codes in the pre scan the trunk latch motor fault got my intention immediately. My next step would be to open al doors en close the door latches and keep the ignition off with the key away from the car. Second step to unplug the trunk latch motor. Third step is to put a scope on the mid speed can bus because that's keeping the audio modules awake. I the car has a electric trunk the module is probably also on the mid speed can.
Sounds like you are working your way over to Avona to meet up with Eric O.
This is SO impressive- I have the same car same issue. Replacing this module today to see if it fixes it!! If it doesn’t, is this type of diagnostic service covered by warranty?! I may be calling you all😭🤣
Rule out any potential input issues that might be sending a wake up signal.
You can isolate the module and provide your own powers and grounds.
I found a 70ma slow drain on a Honda odyssey from the radio. It turned out to be a aftermarket kit installed in back of radio that allowed it to play music thru AUX from a iPhone /iPod. Uninstalled it and drain went away. And got a Blue tooth enabled FM transmitter. That plugs into 12v adaptor.
After removing the kit it went to 20-30ma drain which is acceptable when car is off.
The training and education and subsequent experience to diagnose these gremlins is increasingly valuable to new (and experienced) mechanics. Wrenching is good and necessary for mechanics and surgeons, but diagnosis and the least invasive cures are the future and where income will come from.
Unless you use the parts cannon method of repair and can talk a good line to the customer about it.
@@dlewis9760👌 But then there's a lot of explaining to do on the comeback. 👍
Problem is noone wants to spend 10 hours at $100/hr to troubleshoot parasites
@@nickmalone3143 looks like Ivan has all the work he needs and could afford to walk away knowing the parts cannon will sum to more than his diagnosis and still not solve some problems. I don't work for people who can't factor true value. People need to realise an hourly rate includes a percentage of the hours worked in a career to gain the experience to get to a satisfactory conclusion.
@@nickmalone3143 For a 20 year old rustbucket, no. For a ~4 year old, or less, it's a different circumstance. No one wants to pay big bucks to replace a blown a/c compressor either, until one day in June.
Keep the IKT key fob 15 plus feet away from the vehicle. Prevents triggering approach detection. Ford IDS has a live network monitor, it can be ran to see what modules are sending traffic.
Look forward to seeing what you find.
I had a Parasitic draw on my bank account once. I thought it was my wife but it ended up being a Lincoln.
Great, love this comment!
this guy is cool. I was in a bad mood because I just quit. I got uplifting attitude now. I thought he was going to say my side girl was at fault? unless Lincoln is her aka? but I just subscribed to this channel. Pine Hollow Auto would make an excellent instructor one day. where do I donate at?
Many issues with those Lincoln most is power liftgate module ,some need a reflash and others need to be repalce , so since your video was made the 12/17/ 2021 you already found the gremlins!!
Read data stream in BCM and see if the doors and lift gate are reporting the correct state.
You certainly must have a lot of patience for this job. I'll go on to part two. I hope you find the cause.
5A load should definitely POP on FLIR with car fully rested and at ambient temperature. Probably most of power path will glow. Love PHAD's content.
Exactly the reason I buy the least options on a car
My approach would be to check for fire insurance and then strike a match. You have a lot more patience than I do.
I like using wood clamps on door switches to make car think they are closed. Good luck. Thanks for vids.
Ok fellas, gotta be as patient as Ivan waiting for part 2! And the final diagnosis 🙌🏻🤓 😅 Love the content Ivan! Blessings!
I would put a commercial battery charger in the tool line,, one of the big ones that put out alot of amps, you can charge a battery from dead to full very fast. they can put out plenty of amps to jump cars off too. it will take up some space, but it will save u alot of time considering abt 40 percent of calls when u get there have dead batteries.. either parasitic draw, or they crank the car over every 5 minutes hoping its going to start
Wow now this is a real puzzler case study. Gotta love modern cars NOT ! Looks like more research is needed on the wiring interactions.
Can't wait to see what you find.
Thanks. Lookinv forward to Part 2.
Thank you my brother for sharing your wealth of knowledge God bless you
Sounds like Lincoln or Ford need to add a "PMM" computer for Power Management. It would monitor the power to all the other computers, and generate trouble codes based on the tests performed after each power-down. Yup, that's the key - more computers and wiring! Oh, and with automatic firmware updates.
It would be very easy to add built-in ammeters to monitor whole modules and not just individual sensors. When you get the fault "short to ground or open circuit" it's because the current is out of range.
Please become an engineer 😂 for us Technicians🙏
To add on to that ford rolled out a program to do updates to vehicles “over the air” very interesting. Ford can even potentially fix your car without you coming to be serviced😉
I would go with the thermal camera like you were thinking originally and start at the fuse blocks.
Yeah, 5Amps, 60W give or take. It could be related to the heater control systems:)
Should have the door switches depressed or latches flipped up on any doors you plan on opening during diagnosis. Some vehicles don't go to sleep for hours. Another great tip,, when doing this test on BMW's take out the fuse for the alarm,,, some of them have sensors on the outside of the car that lights up the dash if someone walks close to the car,, some of those sensors also start cameras recording.
My 17 MKZ when I first got it had the bad ACM firmware, which causes the CD player to continuously try to eject a disc without one in there. Required a firmware update and a new AGM because it destroyed the battery from consistently drawing.
Dealer in Philly I bought the car from had to replace the battery. That car was awesome, revel ultima was the best but the 6f55 trans wasn’t too happy with my ethanol tuning.
10r80 in the mustang is much better :). Can’t wait for part 2.
One question is what firmware is in the car and is it the latest vesrsion
SSM 46411 - ACM firmware needs to be HS7T-14D099-AC or higher.
I don’t own the car anymore so I can’t tell you what it was flashed too. But I had several weird software issues fixed with newer updates to it. Either done at the dealer or using forscan/ucds
Open the lift gate and see if anything changes. If so, find out what and why. Find out what powers the screen, check things there.
I knew it had something to do with the infotainment system !!! Probably the first thing to check out if you have a battery drain issue.
That is a huge draw..I'm surprised the car hasn't burst into flame.
Or burned out tge component already .. a motor could stand that draw and act as a heat sink
RTM is what the key fob sends signals to to the car for all its functions and starting the car😉. Also TPMs goes through it too. Long story how I figured that out at the dealership lol.
I don't know if this is often the case but looks like Fords are no easy ones when you have to work on the electronics. I hope you figure it out soon
they've been that way for at least 25 years....
could be anything at this point, light inside glove compartment, trunk, etc, 5amp draw is pretty significant.
What is it with US cars & parasitic power draw Chrysler are horrendous for it over here & its usually amps refusing to shutdown
find the tracker put on by the leasing company
My guess is something is on the network staying awake waking up the radio. Had a f150 that with the fuel accounting module plugged in would have a draw
Yeah, the radio does a few things in these new Fords. Door dinger, active noise cancellation, sometimes, engine sound, turn signal click?? the traffic safety system beeps and chimes.
Hmmmmmmmmm, can't wait for more!
Speaking of draws, Toyota had a service bulletin about batteries draining when vehicles were parked in a remote area, or an area without any cell service.
The 3g phone networks are going to start shutting down this year and even a few 21-22 my cars still use 3g for connected systems. Keep this in mind if you are searching for a drain, or reports start popping up in coming months. Might affect more than just toyota as this module attempts to find a network that no longer exists.
An accesory draw like a radio says the car is not asleep
Thanks Ivan, enjoying your videos and learning heaps.
Vehicle looks very similar to The Ford Mondeo we have here in the uk. I think either BCM keeping the HVAC module awake or a faulty HVAC module
Good job Ivan, stay with it and narrow down to the?
With a 5 Amp draw I would have a bigger battery charger on it have my thermal imaging gun out. That is gonna make some heat and it should show itself. We had one a few weeks back that when pulling fuses it reset the HVAC system and the drain stopped.
Yeah, 5 amps at 12 volts is 60 watts. So either something is glowing as bright as a 60 watt bulb, or something is warming up 60 watts equivalent of heat. Especially as it's Winter in 'merica at the moment, snow on the ground in some areas, things outside should be real cold. Yes those audio controls were glowing in the dark (maybe 5 watts worth ?), but NOT 60 watts worth. If he has some heat detecting camera, that should help narrow things down.
Here's my vote for the lift gate. Maybe it's a faulty switch and the motor still is trying to close it. Just guessing. Will it resolve in part 2, or is there a part 3 and 4?
Had something similar on a Kia Optima. If I unplugged the radio it would drop from 1.8amps down to like 0.3ish but it would fluctuate around. Something was keeping the front module awake. I found the wire in the under dash fuse box that had the fluctuations. It led me back to the front harness above the fender liner, when i pulled it apart it was full of water, the car had been in a collision before and probably set with the harness unplugged for some time and caused the hood switch wires and a few others to constantly keep shorting out.
Famous last words; "4 amp draw, this should not take long to find!" LOL! As to what would "my" next approach be? Call Ivan at Pine Hollow Diagnostics for a appointment! Looking forward to your update to this!
Hahaha I jinxed myself 🤣
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I hope not Ivan!
Try the tailgate lift motor ,wiring where it curves when the rear of the car is open ?...
I just had this happen. A week after I bought the car thankfully. After 2 months of swapping things it turned out to be the telematics unit.
Check fomoco TSB for this concern. I have this same vehicle and same issue. Reprogram RTGM as it is not allowing CAN bus to hibernate.
Love your troubleshooting process
I'm a Benz dealership tech......I always LOL when I see a RUclips video labeled "find parasitic draws quickly" and the car being worked on is something like a 2002 Honda Civic. 😂
haha yup these fancy multi-module cars are a whole different ballgame :)
I would look at alternator even though seams OK back feeding . Or broken and joined together wires in tail gate.
I'm pretty sure Ivan has an FLR One scanner. Let the car set with the battery disconnected for an hour.
Reconnect the battery without touching the key.
Assuming the amp draw on those three fuses is still 5 amps the heat from these amp draws will "pop" from the background.
At this point I would be praying.
Why three fuses (three circuits)? From Ivan's wiring diagram walk thru it appears the BCM is the at the crossroads of this web of three.
At this point I would be hoping the amp draw was the electric heater in the seats, the rear window defroster, and the audio power amplifier.
Three things I would disconnect at the device. The car will run without them.
Another idea already mentioned was the tail gate latch/lift. Another "easy" component to run the FLR scanner on and to disconnect.
Would it be a good step to do a full scan with everything off and the key fob faraway to determine which modules refuse to go to sleep?
If there is a gateway up front, or a string of modules connected to another module, many modules would be hidden behind that sleeping branch out point. Not as easy as an older car where all live on the same branch.
Seems like you are holding back some info on this one to keep us guessing? I don't have a thermal camera or a scanner but I would have continued to pull fuses until the draw stopped. 5amps x 12 volts = 60 watts of heat should glow pretty good in those temps. Heated Steering wheel, Heated seats, switch or solenoid suck on, etc.
There is an update for LGM (liftgate module) to address a current draw from that system.
This electrical/software insanity has to stop! My 2013 Subaru Impreza finally had a completely flat battery from leaving an interior light on. I found out that there is only ONE physical lock on the car, to the driver's door! I could open all the other doors, hood and trunk once inside the car, but only from inside it. I couldn't even roll the car outside the garage because the shift interlock for the automatic transmission is also electrically powered!
If I still drove a manual transmission, that would not have been a problem, I would have just put the transmission in neutral and released the parking brake.
I was then frustrated in my fruitless search for my plug-into-the-wall charger but was rescued by my Li-ion jump pack that started the car.
Heaven help me once the battery gets old and won't hold a charge or my alternator dies!
There MUST be physical backups for electrical systems! I might be satisfied with being able to plug in a 9 V battery to say, unlock the shifter and get the car to roll. There are similar problems that could have work-arounds for no battery situations. Thankfully, I do not have an automatic starter or the like to get confused by a bluetooth weather station!
I'm sure there is a hidden manual release near the shift lever.
@@ronaldfulton1175 ...ussually under a little plastic window on top of the console. Need a small flathead screwdriver to open and to get out of park
@@nickmalone3143 I'll look soon!
I also heard that they had approach module problems they usually found In rear doors
These modern cars will provide you endless years of job security.
Those Lincolns are full of electronics...did I mention full of electronics? Known for some modules or the computer NOT going to sleep every time which kills the battery.
What to do next? Install a battery disconnect switch that can be turned on/off from inside the drivers seat area !
My moms 2017 Ford Escape had a lift gate error causing the car not to start properly, thankfully it was under warranty, unfortunately the extended warranty is running out but the problems are not, hers has 33k, thanks ford
Rear windshield wiper motor with a dead short?
Power trunklid related? Fordtech battered this problem about a year ago.
You get all the fun ones...
I can think of a hundred different things to do instead of messing with electrical crap on a Stinkin Lincoln in cold weather.....LOL....hats off to ya Ivan
Cant pull fuses because stuff stops working....that was like my old job trying to troubleshoot equipment with the power off when a new safety guy started running the show (why I quit). If I was Ivan I'd keep the fuses in and keep doing current checks breaking down the circuit more and more. Also what about your fancy thermal imager tool to find heat? Could be helpful....
It's a newer car, hasn't been through a flood or someone put 120V to the battery, it occurred suddenly, I assume over an amp draw when asleep is not to specs for any car. I would look for a single point of failure because of the suddenness and age of the car, a ground problem (component, connector, box) or software, not going to sleep problem (unplug the computer and see what happens, is the android radio always powered another computer). Also thought of heat camera in the chilly weather you could follow warm wires to the source at that amperage, it doesn't seem to be a single source and multiple components shorting at once without a reason in a newer car is not probable. Multiple wires mean multiple paths to ground and not just some component shorted and it may not be a path to ground at all but live components that shouldn't be live, maybe a switch supplying power to multiple items. I would pull fuses till acceptable draw and list all the suspects, even with the 2 fuses/connector pulled the draw too high was the live engine computer drawing most of the remaining amp, try to come up with a single conclusion/fix for all the suspects
Hi Ivan Could you please make a video of your story how you ended up in the States? thank you
His father is a scientist and the family came to USA from Russia when Ivan was 6
Bet the battery is toast. We got a vehicle cheap because it had a parasitic draw that multiple shops had failed to find. The previous owner had put in a brand new "platinum" $300 battery 3 months ago. Fixing the draw was easy (GM instrument cluster, how could shops fail to find this? All they had to do was search "GM parasitic draw" and it would be the first hit?). Afterwards, everything seemed fine but after a few days/weeks the battery would randomly be dead. Charge it up and it worked fine for days, then later it would be dead again. Yep, problem was a shorted cell in the 3 month old "platinum" battery. The previous owner didn't keep the receipt either, so a 3 month old battery went to recycling. Replaced it with a Costco battery and everything has been good since.
Nice!