Deltarune Analysis: The Truth About Kris
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2021
- A theory and analysis video about Kris from Deltarune and why they are not the villain people think they are. MASSIVE SPOILERS for Deltarune chapter 2 within! You can download the game at deltarune.com if you have yet to play it. I am hoping to do a larger analysis on Kris at a later date, along with some other DR character videos. :) Open to topics in the comments!
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Please watch the whole video before arguing. Sadly, there is ONE big piece of evidence I neglected, so here it is: cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/802695209048604673/895558970910052382/unknown.png A lot of work went into this video! A HUGE thank you to NishaWolfe for her assistance gathering footage. You can find her channel at: ruclips.net/user/NishaWolfevideos You can also check out her Deltarune save editor at spamton.com. She is the programmer behind Inverted Fate's website, invertedfate.com and a very cool person! Also, if you like what I do and wanna support me, I have a patreon at patreon.com/dorked. I am working freelance now so every bit of support helps, even if it's just a dollar! I also have a ko-fi for one time donations at ko-fi.com/invertedfate.
Now make a video on why Ralesi isn't a villian (if you want to)
I personally don’t think Ralsei will be an antagonist, since Flowey/Asriel was the main antagonist of Undertale, having Ralsei, someone who resembles Asriel so much, be an antagonist would be kinda like rehashing Undertale
i watched the whole video :D
There is actually supposed 10 chapters I think
@@MinorInconvenience666 no it's only 7, the Chapter Select menu only shows 7
but probably there might be more lel
Honestly, Kris is so relatable. They just want to hang out with their friends and having a adventure... I wish that dark worlds were actually real. A adventure with battles, axes, and hanging out with friends... couldn't ask for more than that.
I honestly think that's Kris' mindset, too. Their life is so lonely and mundane. Even if they lost control of themself, we have given them friendships and adventures they genuinely seem to value. I think their relationship with the player is... complicated. They want freedom, but in passive runs, I think it's more nuanced than just "player bad, go away."
No one has really pointed this out, but there’s a really interesting parallel with Kris and Niko from OneShot.
@@mecburnablasta6811 Barely heard of OneShot, what’re the parallels?
@@NexusKirin In OneShot, you control the actions of Nico... technically indirectly. You, the player, are a sort of godlike figure to him, and he trusts you to "guide" him and tries to "talk to you" at regular intervals.
OneShot is probably the most meta game in the whole market, at least the most meta one that takes itself seriously.
@@Somerandomjingleberry I see
More reasons Kris didn’t open the previous fountains:
The spade King and Queen directly saw the knight but neither recognize Kris. Nobody recognized Kris despite many darkners knowing about the Knight and who the Knight is.
Kris is only seen opening a fountain after having heard Ralsei and Queen say any lightner can open one. We have no reason to assume Kris even knew how to open a fountain before then, or even that they could open one at all.
Sorry, when did King see the Knight? I thought he just knew of him.
But it could that they didn't recognize kris because they looked different and as shown as kris originally has normal skin but they when they saw the knight again "kris" had blue skin new clothes and ultimately against them but for me WE are against them KRIS is the knight and as shown the only person with determination in the town is kris and as shown queen told the fountains can only be created by an determined being .WE the player control kris and So WE are against them And if you noticed none of them say they saw the knight
@@CyanicCore the knigth is the one who put king in charge so its implied he knew them
@@Azad-Hind-Ball after the knigth made the fountain he would have his dark world apearance
@@diegorafaelgarciagodosonof161 Are you sure? Even if that was the case and he didn't just usurp the others himself, that might've just required moving the card across the room.
I think the biggest thing to solidify that Kris isn't the knight is in the 6th anniversary playthrough of Deltarune before the show started Toby commented on a piece of unused music saying that he could see the track playing in an anime intro with the main trio running up stairs seeing all the bosses and the knight would be at the top. This heavily implies that the knight and Kris are two different people.
That's a really good piece of evidence, too! I thought about adding it here, but the video was basically edited and I wanted to get this out in a timely manner. Great addendum for sure, though. I think Kris is really just a red herring, like they were at the end of chapter 1. The fountain is real, but they aren't THE Knight.
What got me thinking Kris isn’t The Knight is that both King and Queen personally encountered The Knight. Wouldn’t they recognize Kris then? King was determined not to let them down and with Queen, being as talkative as she is, I feel like they would have mentioned that
@@mecburnablasta6811 I think Kris both is and isn’t the Knight. They are their own being, but they also are the vessel for the Knight. In the postgame Catti mentions how she and Kris practiced the occult together. Maybe one of the sessions resulted in Kris being infused with the Knight. I don’t think Kris is evil or a villain.
I wouldn't say so, the knight could be in a cloak, we could only see a flash of their eye, or perhaps a bit of their hair or even see another Kris and people would assume "Doppleganger"
But to mention the other point about King and Queen both having seen the Knight... without the Player Soul they might look different in the Dark World. The Player Soul is Human and at no point have we seen Kris without it. Only Ralsei has when our Soul went to watch Susie in Ch1.
That being said, Kris probably isn't just simply the Knight... because it is made to look like he is on surface level. If it was just that then Ch4+ would start to get rather boring as we solved most of the mystery.
I would argue that, should anyone be the Knight, it could be the Vessel that we made and named at the beginning of the game:
"Your creation will now be discarded. No one can choose who they are in this world."
Toby enjoys defying expectations. I have some doubts that he would make us create something and not eventually use it for his narrative -- the same way that the name we chose in Undertale was never used by any of the characters until the very end, where we discover that we had been playing as Frisk and that our player name was the name of a character that had died long before we ever went to the Underground.
"Your choices don't matter," says Toby, while seemingly making a great many of the choices that we make lead to special cutscenes, hidden dialogue, and even real consequences in the Lightner world for our actions.
The whole "making a fountain" thing is really just Kris trying to prove his point to the police, isn't it? LOL
I definitely think that's a part of it. Multiple reasons, but that's gotta be one.
I hope the door from the outside will not close after the fountain being generated cuz I bet undyne won't even open the door to see the void because of her attitude being so judgmental. (like she would probably immediately leave to investigate the town instead of the house.)
@@ANoobInvoid I feel like undyne would charge at the door and get sucked in
@@diegorafaelgarciagodosonof161 and what about Nabstablook? Do you think he will get stuck to?
@@obi-twokenobi4861 Idk
Honestly I get the vibe that Kris it’s falling directly into the knight traps, serving them by creating more fountains.
Ohhhhhh, like he's been manipulated in some way that we the player didn't know? That makes sense
What if the knight was not a person, but simply the desire that drives lighteners to create more fountains?
what if the knight is actually just like us but indirect
@@orange0666 I'm thinking maybe a person and desire combined, like how Chara somehow IS the player's desire for getting stronger, getting more money, more XP, et cetera, now that you mention it
If that's true, it could also explain why the dark world in the library room popped up while Noelle and Berdly were studying, and why it was so tailored to Noelle's taste.
Queen even said she just wanted to make Noelle happy. Noelle would just have to do the right thing by accident and here there is a perfect world, just for her.
Doesn't expain the one in the spare classroom, but it's a start.
Honestly, I kinda had a similar idea as to why Kris did what they did, and I’m happy there’s someone else out there who can recognize that Kris is doing this on their own instead of being the Knight or possessed by Chara (for some reason)
My interpretation, though, is that Kris is desperate. They don’t want that heir friends and family to leave them, I mean, after all, Asgore was kicked out, Asriel left for college, and we know that they’re a troubled teen. Like you, I don’t think they have any malicious intent with what they’re doing, they just want to keep everyone from leaving, they don’t want to be left behind, and they feel as though the Dark World can truly keep them all together, as it has with Berdly, Noelle, and Susie.
Maybe their motivation is different, but that’s personally what I’ve gathered
Oh yeah, I totally see that as a possible factor, too! Like... without the dark world, would these people even spend time with them? A lot of mixed factors. Escapism. Loneliness. Adreneline. Nothing evil, but their actions are definitely morally grey and potentially very messy.
I think Kris not wanting to be left alone is supported by the existence of Ralsei. He's obviously tied to Asriel somehow, considering how his name is literally an anagram of Asriel, but I don't think he *is* actually Asriel. I think he might be some sort of coping mechanism for Kris, considering how he really feels like someone from the Dreemurr family, not just in the visual design, but also in how caring and kind he is, like Toriel, Asgore and Asriel.
Quoted directly from the Spamton fight:
"I JUST NEED YOUR [Account Details] AND THE [Number on theB4ck] !"
"THEN YOU CAN ENJOY 1000 Fr3e KR0mer"
"WHAT!?!? YOU DON'T NEED IT!?!?"
"THAT'S A REAL BIGSHOT MOVE KID!!!
YOU'RE LIKE ME..."
"[Desperate]"
Considering how well Spamton ends up getting under Kris' skin, his judgements are likely to be trusted. This theory could have some serious weight, either for the argument that Kris is the knight or, as demonstrated here, against it.
I kinda have that issue but without the parent break up and the sibling go to college (they already done with school when I was born) but my issue was about my parent lefting me in the room alone while everyone busy with their job
@@Dorked exactly. Kris isn't evil at heart, they're just acting out in a destructive way to try and keep those they love from leaving, or to help reconnect those who've fallen out of touch
I noticed that, before opening the fountain, Kris looked at Susie before doing it. Definitely plays into the motivation of having more adventures with her.
I believe Kris became a Knight when they opened the fountain, as any Lightner who does that gains the title. But they're not THE Roaring Knight, where I have a suspicion about his identity.
You have a suspicion as to the true identity of the Roaring Knight themselves?
@@Somerandomjingleberry Yes. I think they're Snowdrake, believe it or not.
@@RAR-bs5hy Snowdrake? That's who you suspect of all the kids in the class?
Tbh it would make sense for it to turn out to be one of the kids in the class from a narrative standpoint
But why him in particular?
@@Somerandomjingleberry There's some more points to it than this, but basically Snowy is the reason Kris has to partner up with Susie, since he got Monster Kid to partner up with him. He knows of Asriel's CDs in Kris' room, and probably what else is in it, and likely had some form of friendship with Asriel.
He has easy access to the places fountains have appeared, and we have learnt that his mom in the graveyard is named Crystal - like the Shadow Crystals. At the end of CH2, we see him attempting to convince Monster Kid to enter the bunker.
Queen wants to make Noelle into the new Knight. Her ice magic is absurdly strong, to the point where we can start a whole new route with it. Since Dark Worlds are made from the Knight's Determination, it makes sense that a world created by an ice-elemental monster has ice magic as very strong.
The Queen probably knows of this, conciously or not, and seeks someone with similar magic: Noelle.
@@Somerandomjingleberry We learn from Alvin that monsters do dust in DR as well, and as such Crystal is probably buried with a "Snowy gemstone" to connect her spirit to the divine in monster religion. Snowy is Snowdrake's name, and the Fountains are described as Holy.
If we want to parallel Undertale, maybe Snowy is using the crystal with his mom's dust on it, focusing his determination into it, to open dark fountains.
i am SO TIRED of people thinking of kris as this heartless, emotionless sadist when they're NOT. THEY'RE JUST A KID WHO MISSES THEIR BROTHER AND WANTS SOME FRIENDS. GIVE THIS CHILD A HUG
Or not, since they might not like hugs as Asgore mentioned
They don't like hugs!
Maybe, like, a fist-bump.
@@XiELEd4377 actually they don't like the way how Asgore hugs them in chapter 1
I mean when the soul gets ripped out, Kris is LITERALLY heartless
This is probably just people who see the shirt and desperately want deltarune to prove that Chara is evil. Some Chara offenders give respectful arguments, but then there are those who act like their opinion is a fact and it isn't up for debate.
I've been discussing the chapter's ending with friends ever since we finished it and have come to the conclusion about the door being open not for anyone in general to walk in but specifically to force Undyne to take it seriously. If they had only slashed the tires she would have come, seen the lights out and no one answering the door and assumed everyone was asleep, done a sweep outside and maybe even stayed guard until they woke up. But with the tires slashed, lights out, and door ajar, she's gonna go in to make sure everyone is alright and end up in the dark world as a result. Kris knows how dangerous the Dark World is and has tried to tell Undyne about it each chapter, yes it's also done great things for them but not only do they realize that it's dangerous but know what will happen if too many open, why would they willingly open one unless it's to get the attention of someone who might be able to do something to stop it
Do you think Undyne would tell Asgore? He was the police chief in the past, but most importantly, is his family. Maybe Undyne would warn him and Asgore would come, or she would not tell him to not make him anxious.
I haven’t thought of this before but maybe Asgore will come if Undyne calls him. And she would do that not only for being in the police force, but because his son and exwife are potentially in great danger.
@@MoRPho151 that depends if she call Asgore inside or outside the Dark World, since it's implied phones and such don't work inside it, so Undyne might not be able to call anyone from outside
Maybe he wants to make Undyne knows about the darkworld for her to start an investigation to discover who the knight is
@@dedalus6188 That'd be very funny
The Knight: "I have Titans"
Kris: "We have a manaic police officer who can, will and is already supplexing all the buildings on this place just because"
I really don't blame Kris for making some of the dark fountains. They most likely have the same mindset that Susie, Noelle, and Berdly had about the dark worlds: that they don't see a problem with them. All of them loved going on these amazing adventures and making new friends, both with the darkners and themselves. And I could see myself wanting to make dark fountains if I were in the same place as Kris, Susie, Noelle and Berdly, especially due to the fact that I don't really have any close friends to talk to anymore. The dark world is like an escape from the real/light world. Yeah, it wouldn't be a smart idea because _too_ many fountains can summon the roaring, but I know I would want to create a dark fountain so I don't see why Kris wouldn't want to create a dark fountain themselves.
I think, "Roaring" aside, that the fountains represent escapism- imagination, dreams, playing games. And while that's all good in small quantities, if the whole world was just living in a fantasy all the time, it wouldn't be good for anyone, not really. It would be living a lie. It's okay to escape reality for a time, but ultimately, you have to confront it someday.
And they've already proven they can close fountains.
So if there's only a problem with too many, and Kris can open and close them at will, there seems to be no harm in opening single dark fountains at a time.
i dont either. especially since kris' home life kind of sucks. not that their parents are _awful_ or anything, but their divorce seems to have made a really uncomfortable atmosphere for them that they now have to deal with by themselves, since asriels gone. as evidenced by the scene in sans' shop. i could barely get through it it was so embarrassing. plus their dynamic with kris themselves. what with asgore involving them into his relationship with toriel (also random strangers, poor sans lmao) when he _really_ shouldnt do that, and toriel seeming overbearing as hell. they have to deal with that every single day. i really dont blame them for wanting an escape from it.
I can definitely see a lot of these points and like the idea that Kris is actually well meaning with their actions. I've been following the idea that perhaps there's 3 entities in Kris, being Kris themself and the player (which I believe contains both a good and evil conscious like in undertale).
I absolutely love the idea that someone was hiding in the computer room closet as it states someone could fit inside. Specifically a large person (which may be hinting that the Knight is an adult such as Asriel, Asgore, etc). Because if the knight did create it then that would mean he would have exited the building in plain day so it would have to be some that the library staff recognize as it's a small town and there's no mention of a stranger entering or leaving
A lot of people assume the closet was just teasing for Snowgrave, but the thing is... Berdly isn't a large person? Sure, the closet could have been used in Snowgrave to stash a body, but I think it's a chekov's gun. Sooner or later, it'll probably come back in a meaningful fashion, and I think subtly hinting at another party while having Kris as a red herring is really clever on Toby's part.
@@Dorked I absolutely agree. Theres no reason it would be specified as a "large person" without reason, and I feel that Toby would have only mentioned it if you were doing a Snowgrave playthrough as certain dialogue tends to be changed dependent on your actions. The fact it's stated even in a neutral or pacifist route is suspicious and leads me to believe that the observation has to have a greater meaning.
I'm personally supporting the theory that Asriel may be home earlier than expected and may secretly be Ralsei, and that he was the one in the closet. Which may also mean he could be the knight. Like if Ralsei is Asriel and also is the Knight, then perhaps hes opening up the fountains as a way to help Kris as its shown Kris's life seemingly is better after going to the Darkworld. Or maybe he's just trying to give his little sibling a fun adventure.
@@DjFluttersMTF I personally don't think the Knight is Asriel. Mainly because word would get out sooner or later that Asriel has been seen around town. Even if he made others keep it a secret, someone would eventually spread word of his appearance. Also it seems very much like the knight is trying to turn Darkners AGAINST the Lightners and based on the Darkners' reactions, they're not being nice about it. The knight definitely feels like its someone with malicious intent bent on causing chaos and ruin. So this either means that Asriel hates their brother, or the Knight is someone who hates the Light World and wants to see it destroyed. I'm not entirely sure who that person could be though as I don't think we've really seen anyone that particularly hates their life or the Light World. Either way it wouldn't make sense for someone who cares about Kris to make the Darkners turn hostile against them.
I cannot consider Kris as evil or a bad person after seeing Snowgrave. Everyone in that route points out how the player’s actions are nothing like how Kris is. The game is set up in a way where it is clear that Kris can stand higher than the player morally.
There's also the theory that this is where Queen's robot was "stored", and the reference to old electronics also could hint at the Mansion's Basement. There's a lot of potential reasons for that closet; I think any connection to SnowGrave was probably just shock value and convenience.
Judging by how the story has been going, I think loneliness is as big a theme in the story as freedom is. Specifically, the connection between freedom (which, in this context, most often means becoming aware of the world as a game and/or being able to manipulate timelines n stuff) and the loneliness that follows it. Already in UT, Flowey, Frisk, Sans, and even Chara - the characters who had the ability to manipulate timelines - are shown to be lonely in their own way. Not to mention, Gaster himself is the loneliest of all since he just disappeared from existence and lost all of his connections (hence wanting to connect with the player in the survey). In Deltarune, it's the same thing. Jevil is isolated in a basement prison cell for becoming aware of the game, and Spamton is shown to be extremely lonely and craving any kind of attention or friend. It seems like Kris is the exact antithesis of this pattern though. They have been lonely, and now that they know more about the world and are given the ability (via our choices) to be the hero of this story, they can finally connect with people meaningfully again, and pass that onto others (Suzie and Ralsei).
Why did Asriel/Flowey want to keep you underground? Because if you were satisfied with your ending, you would stop resetting, and he would be lonely as a result. Definitely some kind of pattern here.
If this is only 2/7 imagine how chapter seven will feel like
That makes sense, would this mean Chapter 3 could start in the dark world right away? With Ralsei waking them up.
I could honestly see it starting in a dark world, which is REALLY interesting! It's also likely the festival is coming after, so maybe the "pace" of the chapter will be different from the status quo. Chapter 2 already changed it a little by having a little dark world time in castle town before going back to the town.
@@Dorked If it does start in the dark world I definitely think Ralsei would wake them up if he saw them sleeping. I definitely agree that Toriel and Undyne could be in this Dark World too, Toriel for sure since she's on the house so she's already there and Undyne because the cops were called, though I also am pretty sure from the time Toriel called and the time the fountain was made there was a time skip as it got darker (yes the lights in other rooms were turned off but I'm talking about overall).
@@TheEmeraldCreeper If Toriel is in The Darkworld, she's definitely going to mention something about Ralsei looking like Asriel, Noelle did too. Also, wouldn't it be great if Toriel and Undyne's Darkworld outfit's are their Undertale outfits?
@@mecburnablasta6811 ikr (about the outfits), I definitely think it's something to ponder about for however long until the next chapter comes out
I think it should be where ralsei isn't able to get to where they are because it's too far from the school
I'm really glad that there's a theory that's not "Kris is evil, look at their eyes!!!! they're red!!!! that's evil!!!" and spins them as some cosmic entity of destruction. They're just a kid, and kids *would* do reckless things like this I think.
People just want an easy villain, I feel. SO many people blame Snowgrave on Kris, for instance, when WE make Noelle act that way. I think it's a holdover from "Chara pure evil demon!" that ignores the nuance to Toby's writing.
@@Dorked FOR REAL
the whole Chara thing is really annoying to see, and it carrying over to Kris purely because of their similar appearance, very, VERY pisses me off
@@randomcatdude i mean kris is just teen chara with a different name
@@pidgeythethief especially if you ignore all of the differences
@@Dorked literally summed up my thoughts
"Kris is evil" or god forbid "Kris is Chara" It's just the whole "Chara is evil" with different paint
You have convinced me, this fits a lot more with Kris' character.
I'm glad that other people are standing up for Kris... I'm all for theory crafting, but it is completely against Toby's storytelling to blame or make Kris "evil" when there usually aren't any truly "evil" characters in the messages he portrays.
Kris, at most, is a troubled, misunderstood kid that does some mildly problematic things in order to get attention... I think that message is very clearly shown to you if you "bully" Noelle in a pacifist route with the electric barrier. Noelle mentions that Kris seems genuinely hurt when she teases him back.
I honestly believe that Kris wants to change the perceptions that others have had of him in the past and he may even blame his loneliness and lack of friends on himself... Considering that Queen states at the end of Chapter 2 that any Lightner can create a fountain if they are determined enough... and Kris knows that being in the Dark World is the only time he's been able to successfully make friends away from Asriel? Why wouldn't he want to make another fountain?
I would even go so far as to say that, in future chapters, we may see that Kris blames himself for Asgore losing his job at the Police Station for some of this troubled behavior... and that he may feel like he led to Toriel and Asgore's separation because they had two, very different concepts of parenting in regards to how to "fix" it.
I feel like Toby is throwing some suspicion on Kris to teach former Undertale players a very valuable lesson about having blamed Chara for the actions that they themselves took during a Genocide run. We seem to be back in the saddle again of some people trying to blame the innocent kid that we're controlling for our own actions... and I think they are going to get a swift kick when Susie, who is portrayed repeatedly as the True Hero in this story, winds up saving Kris from the Player and the control we have over him.
People who pin things like Snowgrave on Kris also miss the point of this game's metanarrative. Undertale explored deconstructing RPG conventions (e.g. killing monsters having more consequences as they were treated as people, not being able to loot houses or sell things to every shop). Deltarune is now deconstructing the relationship to the characters we control and our role in the story. It frustrates me that people are trying to simplify defending Kris as ignoring any possible consequences or bad choices they make, when... that's not the point. The point is they are not EVIL, and likely are not the Roaring Knight. I think Toby is evoking familiar imagery from UT's genocide run SPECIFICALLY to challenge it, and the fact that so many people fall for it proves that folks are going in wanting to have Kris be the bad guy.
It's frustrating how commonplace it is, and that's definitely a factor in why I made this video. You hit the nail on the head, and I wish more people would consider the nuances here.
It is actually very clear all what you have said. Kris have their own emotions, we can make them do things that they don’t like. For example, if you do snowgrave Kris feels terrible about what happened! Susie sees that Kris is off. You the player are the one that decided to do that, not Kris. And this is repeated over and over and over in the game. You see Kris being bothered, happy or troubled without our imput. And with the Spamtom thing is very clear that they hate being controlled by us, they want to get free of us. In my last run, I went back to talk to the other agents after the first Spamtom fight (the normal one) and Kris asks all of them about Spamtom. They say things like: we don’t talk about him, he don’t relate us anymore etc.... but you see that Kris is actually very interested in the deal that Spamtom offered to them, and feel terrified when Spamtom dies after being set free from his wires. It is very clear that they are being controlled, they have his own emotions and convinctions and they hate being controlled by us.
The question here is why they started to be controlled by us? What do they did? Playing with Dark magic? Gaster messing with timelines, worlds and time and space? All of that is in theory territory since it hasn’t been explored, but Kris is not a villain.
@@MoRPho151 idk, but before we started the fight with Spamtom, Spamtom said that he want the soul that live inside Kris. Could it mean that Spamtom ever had The soul before? like, back then when he had a deal with someone who help him became successful. Was that deal has something to do with The soul? and then that soul took over him, and he has end up like this. Kris might be afraid that he will end up like Spamtom someday, i guess.
Player is fanon until Toby changes that in future chapters so blaming player rn is illogical.As for undertale player involvement on genocide.Frisk did most of the killing up to sans in which chara took over and finshed the rest of them.So before we start with this player nonsense again let’s just enjoy the game without these illogical conclusions
Thinking that the Chapter 2 ending confirms that Kris is evil is the same kind of logic which made people believe that the Chapter 1 ending proved that Kris was going to use their knife to start murdering everyone in Hometown. As we now know, the real truth was still a bit sinister and mischievous, but if all they did was eat a whole pie, it's not the epitome of evil.
I think that the Chapter 2 ending was meant to throw people off and make us think "Oh, does that mean Kris is the Roaring Knight!?", but that doesn't mean that they really are one and the same person. As you said, there's lot of reasons why a "Well-Intentioned Extremist" Kris would think that opening a new Dark Fountain is a good idea.
@Jetzflare UNDERTALE did make a big deal about how there's no "absolutely evil" character, even Flowey has a sad backstory that explains why he became so sadistic.
We don't know enough about the Roaring Knight to know why they want to open the Dark Fountains, maybe the Roaring will actually end up being a good thing in some way, at least from their perspective.
theres a bit of a difference though, since we knew nothin about what kris was going to do in chapter one, but in chapter two we watch them make a dark fountain
@@Duexroted Of course, but we don't know why they want to make a Dark Fountain, or even it is "Kris" who is in control of their body when they pull the Soul out.
@@Solibrae it's possible the Knight himself doesn't know about the Roaring either and creating Fountains was meant as something entirely different
@@lucidhighway4403 Yep! We don't know for sure if Ralsei is correct about the Roaring either.
I've always understood the "Kris is the Knight" side but I've never thought it was the best idea especially with chapter 2 [apart from the first day it came out, it made sense then until we had more time to think about it]
Yeah, it's very deliberately a red herring on Toby's part, I think. A big, cliffhanger where at a glance you think Kris is the knight, but then when you step back and review what came before, it starts to fall under more scrutiny. Toby has been building the knight as the main antagonist. He even planned to have an intro sequence where Kris and friends run up a dramatic stairway with the knight at the top. I think Kris is just copying what the knight did for their own personal reasons, regardless of any risks involved.
@@Dorked
And I think that alot of people think kris is the knight becuse he created the fountain, even though, Queen explained how to create one.
@Dariel Rojas off topic but love the profile picture
"Watch the whole video before arguing"
Can... I agree with you with an initial look into it?
"Kris is not the villan"
This is very plausible considering they do have a sense of right and wrong. When, on a Snowgrave Route, you rejoin Susie and Ralsei, I've heard they point out how Kris looks devastated or like something really bad just happened.
(Actual quote:
Susie: Kris? You okay? You look kinda...
Ralsei: Kris, if you're hurt, Susie can heal you!)
So if even Kris doesn't like what the player did in Snowgrave, we can derive 3 possibilities:
Ralsei is lying about the Roaring (or Kris is exempt from it), otherwise why would Kris open dark fountains?
Or
Kris and the knight are two different people, or in other words the knight may be possessing Kris
Also plausible
Or
Kris is desperate/exceptionally bored/ is insane and it's not a problem of it being right or wrong, kris wants dark fountains to be opened up, and perhaps just enjoys the adventures
Pretty sure Kris is just being controlled by the player (you) and is forced to do what you tell him to. Just look at what happens after you beat Spamton Neo during a pacifist run.
@@dead2memes2oof85
There is a reason Kris plunges their knife into the ground to create a fountain.
And there is reason to believe they've done it before.
Queen mentions "The knight bringing their blade into the earth creating her dark world, though sadly it is only trapped in the computer lab"
With a KNIFE being shown for the blade.
And who was holding a knife the night before? And who was unaccounted for for most of that night?
Kris is certainly the knight but it doesn't mean Kris is just the knight alone with us.
@@kirbyfreakyt4695 Yeah Kris has to remove their soul to be able to move freely because their soul is what’s being used to control them.
@@kirbyfreakyt4695 The thing is, Kris didn't make the library dark fountain, in all likelihood, given that Berdly and Noelle were studying in the library before the dark fountain opened and the whole " a large person could fit inside" detail. I don't think that's irrelevant data. I think it's foreshadowing.
@@Dorked
Snowgrave gives a whole new meaning to "A large person could easily fit inside."
Plus, the fountain could have been inside the closet and it was closed beforehand. Perhaps we'll just have to see.
THANK YOU FOR THIS 🙌
Far too many people jump on the 'Kris is evil' wagon because they just take what happens at face value.
When in reality, Kris' motivations, emotions and actions make a lot of sense if you just think about it.
I'm still sticking to my theory that Kris created the library fountain, but not the one in the school. In Chapter 1 Kris and Susie are able to walk around in the closet for a minute or two before the papers fell and brought them into the dark world, so it's reasonable to assume Noelle and Berdly would have time to put their books down before getting sucked in as well. Great video either way, plenty of merit to thinking Kris wasn't the one that made it too
The dark world in the closet is the original dark world, the one that stabilized the world for all the years...
The one unstabling the world was next to it, the classroom
@@RealQuarlie uh source?
@@kshimo7 the game???
The thing is at least cleaning staff shouldve checked the room before we enter it after school...
But Berdly and Noelle were already in the library studying when the fountain was opened, which happened while Kris was sleeping or while they were gathering the classroom denizens to being back to castle town
THANK YOU. It's pretty clear that the Dark Fountains have helped them to bond with other people and, and being the lone kid they are, it makes sense they want more adventure to bond with someone like Susie or their mom. Kris is a freaky kid, but not evil, we haven't been told things that have been done out of actual malice(the only one we know of, is Kris dropping a lizard on the floor on purpose, and maybe the one of getting under Noelle's bed, and even that may have been out of good intentions).
"(the only one we know of, is Kris dropping a lizard on the floor on purpose"
It's Yoshi.
honestly kris is descride as being the weird loner kid who plays pranks such as the fake blood pronk on noelle
But those last stories were not anything horrendous Kris did, just some silly stuff any kid would do.
@@neuro3834 I said maybe for the second, and the one about the lizard was clarified by someone to be about a game, I just forgot to reply. So,yea, lol
@@mithril5155 yes yes i know what you tryna say. I just think that the bed incident was just a "prank" but Noelle got really scared
The problem is we shouldn't be concerned with what Kris is doing. What they have planned is a drip in the bucket compared to what *he* has in store for the world of deltarune. I'm willing to bet that if we collect all of the shadow crystals, we'll unlock something far bigger than the entire plot itself. And so in my personal opinion, I'd rather not keep *him* waiting.
When Toby Fox said there was one ending, I don't think it was literal. I think it was figurative in the sense that the world of Deltarune will come to an end. We may not know how, but I'm willing to bet that the game will not have the same 3 routes as undertales where you have a choice to have a happy ending. As Toby wanted us to feel something different than last time.
my bet is that the shadow crystals will do something in relation to gaster, since he presumably is the one behind both secret bosses being the way they are. we might learn something about the player in relation to kris and their actions, hell, we might even be told that the situation with kris being controlled by us has something to do with gaster
He already indirectly stated that there are more than one ending(snowgrave route and whatever consequences it'll have in future chapters)
I think the shadow crystals might be pieces of gaster i mean it was said in undertale that gaster was shattered so my guess is that he can't fully exist until all pieces are gathered
@@M-m585 oh shit i completely forgot about the shattering and being scattered part i think youre onto something
@@M-m585 That puts some pretty horrific context onto the twisted sword, which is made by the thorn ring and (assumedly) a purified dark crystal.
This makes all the sense, inclusive in snowgrave Noelle says that the voice that tell her what to do it was a voice unlike kris's, a terrifying voice and at this point we can say that kris cannot be bad in the dark world apparently only in the light world so it would be stupid if kris were always a villian even with those with whom he is allied
Kris is an odd case. We're tricked into thinking they're just a silent protagonist, but the end of chapter 1 proves that's not the case by hammering in that Kris had their own life and us controlling them is off-putting and strange to the people around them. But even with us controlling them, they still have some say in their actions and do seem to genuinely care about their friends. I think that Kris is a "copycat knight" if anything. They're like, "I can make fountains too???" And wanted to see if they could because their life didn't start getting better until they began these adventures. At least in some regards.
inb4 the Dark World calls Kris the Knight and everyone starts freaking out because that's just clearly not true
@@damianthorne2532 That would actually be interesting to see.
Something making Kris be construed as the knight, only for it to not be the case, and Kris and the Player Soul end up synergizing a heck of a lot in clearing their name
@@Somerandomjingleberry I'd love to see that as well. I can imagine a scene where not the player, but Kris admits to creating the fountain in front of everyone, only for them to turn on Kris (maybe aside from Susie, who would be more torn about the situation than just angry, similarly to Lancer's betrayal in chapter 1), and the player being left to "clean up Kris' mess" alongside him, either pushing Kris further away from the player, like with Snowgrave, or bonding the two, making their and our relationships a bit better overall.
@@MeloniestNeon Yeah!
And, like, maybe in the "good version of the finale" since technically the overall ending ending won't be that different, there can be a moment where Kris and you get super duper powered up because y'all have achieved "perfect synergy" and all that
I personally can't help but wonder how Ralsei and Asriel would interact. If we assume Asriel is going to be the same as in undertake and Ralsei is going to act the same way as in chapter 2 how would they act around each other? Would Asriel be the only one to not trust Ralsei? Would they instantly become best friends? Would they pretend to like each other? Would Asriel or Ralsei feel replaced by the other? Would they constantly try to 1 up each other in kindness or would they force Susie and Kris to chose between one of them? Which of them has a higher chance to end up being an antagonist? Would Ralsei know a lot about Asriel or would they both be surprised to see another boss monster? This character duo has so much potential and is probably one of the main reasons I am hyped up for Asriel being introduced to the story in chapter 7, what are your thoughts?
Going off the "ralsei is formed out of the crayon and pink horns" theory, perhaps Asriel would recognize this immediately, going "hey wait a second...!"
Also, I think it's worth noting that Asriel, while perhaps similar at heart in the end, is not a small child here. He's gonna be a lanky college kid, perhaps with a nice athletic frame if at least one of those trophies was from a track and field sort of thing. Like how Kris himself is definitely more "grown' looking than Frisk or Chara.
isn't Azzy (almost) as old as Burgerpants though?
@@nightfall_9411 Yeah, he's in a university
Plot twist asriel has become a nihilist
@@jettlucashayes8508 Honestly seeing how different Asriel is as a young adult will either be cool or really disheartening
I am fully convinced that the “face” we see in both the TV and slightly off screen before the long teacup in the basement is the knight. Not only would the backroom in the library be a perfect representation of the basement (being a place where all of the extra computer stuff and “garbage” would be) but it would be a perfect hiding place for somebody within the dark world.
As for the television, I think this implies that the knight *may* not actually be a lightener as we know them. Rather, he may be more similar to Ralsei, being an incredibly powerful darkener. This is only more evident If you believe the speculation that Ralsei is one of the three titans mentioned in ‘the roaring’ that had turned against the others.
There is also that Mike guy that is on tv. He could be related to the knight also though.
I think we as the player also play a part in Kris' motivations. Throughout the game, especially during the endgame where we interact with the monsters around town, Kris would seem visibly upset about something; perhaps they're upset that they don't have full control over their body and that we make choices that they clearly don't like (like hugging Ralsei, Snowgrave, choosing options that aren't Susie, etc.)
From their perspective, we're the villain and making a new dark fountain is a meta way for Kris to continue the game until they find a way to be completely free from us entirely. I mean, I'd be pretty pissed too if some higher being was controlling me.
My head canon is that the vessel we created is the knight
Wait a sec
WAIT A SEC
That might
HOLY
well what happens when you skip chapter 1
@@Blockistium same thing that happens for Rouxls' robot. It will be a predetermined combination of the existing options.
I kinda feel like that doesn't work, honestly. It's the SOUL that's the whole reason the fountains get *closed*, after all. At that point the Knight would just be solving self made problems.
I love your analysis videos! They are a really nice break from the IF content and I really hope to see more eventually. I've never been on the "Kris is The Knight!!!" side but I couldn't really gather my thoughts. Both this and the Papyrus video show some great points!
Ah, thank you! :) Now that I'm out of retail, I definitely have more time to pursue projects like this in earnest.
@@Dorked Your analysis videos are better than Game Theory.
I agree, the Knight would have had to create the Fountain when Berdly and Noelle were already in the computer lab. But we don't see anyone hiding in the closet after the Fountain is sealed...
So who do we know who has a history of using the computer lab, is a member of a species known to change their silhouette with knightlike armor, has an alibi because they appear IN THE DARK WORLD (and the Light World), is insanely powerful, and has actively railroaded Kris into following a specific path? The Annoying Dog. That's right, Toby Fox himself is the Knight.
(Ok this is only partially serious but I still think something's up with the Annoying Dog I'm probably wrong though)
Wait, when did the annoying dog appear in the light world?
@@theguywhoistheman1344 Undyne says that the dog was doing donuts in the intersection next to the librarby, thus causing the traffic jam.
@@theguywhoistheman1344 The Dog also uses the computer lab in Chapter 1. You have a point though; technically, we have never truly _seen_ the Dog in the Light World yet.
Regarding the no-one-hiding-on-the-closet issue: Is it possible that the Knight somehow woke up before the gang and could leave quietly.
@@silverstar4505 Actually, that raises a good question. How does the Knight (whoever they are) leave the Eastern Dark World in Chapter 1? The classroom seems pretty empty, so how did the Knight just leave? ...Weird. (Also weird is how the two Dark Worlds are connected through the Door but that's irrelevant here)
This is really interesting. Especially the theory about Kris slashing Toriel's tires.
By the way do you think Gaster will be in future chapters? Perhaps Gaster talked to Susie and Kris in entry number 17? Kinda far fetched but it could be possible.
I actually was thinking the same thing! I'm lowkey hoping for a big, dramatic intro to Gaster where he's reciting Entry 17 and then "WHAT DO YOU TWO THINK?" is directed at Kris and Susie. It'd be so cool.
@@Dorked That would be so amazing! It would perfectly introduce W.D Gaster to those who don't know him (somehow).
Knowing Toby that would be the final scene of the chapter leaving fans waiting once again
Fun fact: EGG in windings shows how a knigth moves on chess
I think the fact that slashed was in red font almost solidifies that Kris was the culprit, red is mostly the color relating to the determination/kris
@@th3hyp3g0d8 Kris slashing the tires and making the fountain doesn't make them THE Knight, though. It just means they wrecked their mom's car (which isn't great) and made a fountain (also risky).
yes, thank you. toby is probably capitalizing on the stigma of "character dressed like chara + freaky personality = evil". though kris is definitely mischievous, they definitely care about their friends and would not wish for the roaring.
that said, if the knight did want to bring about the roaring, why didn't they just keep opening fountains? (is there a cooldown or something lmao) but really, why open them one by one in these specific locations where they can easily be found randomly by anyone? or did i miss some specific condition for opening fountains? or is ralsei the only one who knows about the roaring?
also, when you seal the library fountain, i found it weird that berdly and noelle were sleeping. kris and susie seem to be aware of the moment the fountain gets sealed and are fully awake (this is also true in chapter 1). something must've deliberately caused them to fall asleep as i doubt they'd randomly fall asleep while studying. this oddity also leads both berdly and noelle to think the dark world was a dream, at least, in the normal route. of course, this _could_ just be a convenient way for toby to keep them out of future dark worlds (i hope not lol)
overall, solid points and i'm excited to see this story unfold!
honestly I feel like the reason Berdly and Noelle 'wake up' after the Dark World was sealed is because Susie conditioned Noelle to think it was a dream and Noelle influenced Berdly to also think it was a dream by mentioning that it was a dream. So consequently because both of them start thinking its a dream, they condition themselves to fall into a sleeping state right when the fountain is sealed so it confirms their suspicions of it being a dream.
Thought of you when the queen showed up in the giant mech playing chapter 2 for the first time! It's most likely that there are multiple fountain openers at this point, and there is speculation that Alvin may be one culprit, as he mumbled regret or contemplation at the grave and mentioned the use of Gerson's old hammer. Maybe he opened the classroom fountain to try to see Gerson again, trying to bring to life the drawing? As an aside, can't wait for Gaster to show up and see if the skelebros will play any role in the plot. Thanks for the video!
Multiple knights are also possible! But I definitely think there is one central "Knight" who is the main antagonist, given Toby's plans for the original intro sequence. Alvin theory is very interesting for sure. :o
@HBegaming YT I agree on the first point. My belief is that he will be an antagonist, but Noelle will surpass him in the last chapters as the Angel itself.
As to who stole the vessel, it wouldn't be surprising if it was merely Kris' internal monologue to Gaster/The Player telling them to butt out of his dreams. Or maybe it was just Gaster lecturing us after providing a false choice, then forcing us into Kris. We'll see.
I really like the idea of there being multiple knights. We take the fact the Knight is referred to as they/them to mean their gender is unknown or that they are nonbinary, but maybe it is actually plural they/them, as in multiple people are the Knight. Maybe each fountain has been created by a different person. Not just Kris making the one in Toriel’s living room and the other 3 coming from one other person. The Knight could be as many as 4 different people at this point.
there *are* four starting knights in chess, after all
so there could be four central openers
interesting thing to not however is that
pawns can become knights as well...
yesssss i been saying this!! some ppl wanna have rly complicated theories but fail to remember that Kris is a teenager and the motives may be quite simple, and also sad bc they're the lonely weird kid. there are so many parts where you see Kris actually enjoying themselves, esp when others note their actions, behavior, and speech. we dont hear/see Kris talk, but everyone else does. it makes me so curious about them. we make their decisions, but i wonder what their tone is. i wonder what faces they're making. we've barely scratched the surface of Kris
Kris also could be the final boss of the alternate (genocide?) route. Sort of like Sans in Undertale. So this is how I think it could go:
During the snowgrave route there are clear signs that Kris themselves is against taking that route. Like you said, they seem to show some heroic tendencies which is why I also think they generally seem to care about their friends and want to do the right thing. So what if some entity possesed them and made them do horrible things? Like Idk making their childhood friend freeze another friend to death? Basically if you chose to take these weird alternate routes in every chapter, Kris would slowly grow to hate you for what you made them do.
In the final chapter regardless of which rotue you take somehow Kris would find a way to get rid of you from their body permanently (without that zombie-like effect). Like a lot of people suggest, you would then take control of the vessel you created in chapter 1 but then what happens next would depent on which route you take.
This is also when Kris starts to talk on their own and basically become a side character you interact like Susie, Lancer, Noelle etc. They would also get rid of that "-_-" expression because they would finally be free to express their emotions (I know it's probably just to make the scene creepy but Kris SMILES when they get rid of the SOUL in chapter 1 end)
If you went with the normal route, Kris sees you as an ally since you treated their friends with kindness and just generally were a good guy. Kris understands possesing them was neccesary for some reason so they bring you to your vessel and you go together to save the day. It would be at the end of the last chapter and the final fight would have you (in your vessel) and Kris as a party member similar to Sussie and Ralsei.
However if you went with the alternate route, like I said, Kris absolutely hates you. They hate what they have become because of you. Assuming that at the end of this route a lot of their friends end up dead like Berdly, they see you as an evil monster who is out to destroy everything that's good (which is exactly what you do in this route). Again, they learn how to get rid of you permanently but here they do this to destroy you. You somehow still find your way into your vessel but Kris refuses to give up and stand in your way. Basically in this route you are the villain and Kris is the hero who stands as the last bastion of defense.
Obviously this fight would be really difficult, there would be some kickass track playing (making the whole thing almost worth it) but I think a cool concept would be if because of their strong connection to you and being aware that they are in a video game, Kris would be able to influence the game itself. Like maybe manipulating the UI or somehow messing with game controls. Or maybe messing up with the turn order like preventing you from taking your action.
Come to think of it they could do the same in the normal route but there, they would do it in a way that is beneficial for you (because the final boss would be just this powerful that you would need that). I think that could make both final fights feel unique
Kris is more than the player's puppet, they are their own person and Chapter 2 makes it VERY clear that they're fighting against us instead of trying to work with us. At the end of the Snowgrave/Weird route they even feel horrified at what we've made them do.
I'm really worried that Kris's desire for freedom will drive them to do more and more drastic things, putting their new friends and the entire world in danger.
I still wonder why Kris doesn’t really likes Ralsei tea, maybe Kris knows that Ralsei can’t always be with them?
Or maybe Kris is sad because of how much Ralsei makes Kris remember of Asriel
ralsei tea probably just tastes like green tea, i hate green tea
Finally a theory that Kris isn't the knight! I've seen way to many "Kris is the Knight" theories I get some of them, but they don't rlly point out the fact that King Spade and Queen would recognize Kris at all! Since those two actually saw the Knight and would recognize Kris wouldn't they? Tho i kinda like this theory of Kris just being misunderstood and just want to repair and connect back with their friends and family that they grown apart and left them-
This video is pretty awesome. I like how you portrayed Kris' somewhat sinister actions as a wholesome attempt to have more adventures. It would be pretty wild if that's the case.
After chapter 2 my theory now is that the Knight is Dess/December, Noelle's presumed to be dead or missing sister. Both routes give the player possible information about her without revealing it outright, and unlike the other third party I see suspected, Alvin, there is information about Dess that isn't optional. The normal route gives us basic info about Dess as a character, and implies she is dead or missing. The Snowgrave route may imply what happened to her.
I suspect as kids Kris, Asriel, Dess, and Noelle played a version of the Legend as a game Asriel made up. Kris was the human. Dess was the monster, Asriel played as a dark prince named Ralsei, and Noelle played the Angel the heroes were fighting. One night they went into the bunker in the woods and ended up entering the dark world. Noelle then ended up accidentally freezing Dess, and then blanked the memory from her mind due to the emotional trauma (we see her do this multiple times in Snowgrave). Because the dark world entrance disappeared everyone besides Kris and Asriel believed Dess went missing. Asgore failing to find the mayor's daughter resulted in him getting removed from the police force, and later his divorce with Toriel.
Either by the occult magic we know Kris, Noelle, and Catti are into, or by the same entity that is corrupting the extra bosses Dess was revived but lost their Lightner body. Now they are possessing Kris and Noelle to make the dark fountains. Meanwhile in the dark world they kept the persona of their knight character from Asriel's game. Susie is called a "Dark Knight" in their status menu, so presumably Dess's version of the same monster hero would also be a Knight.
It should also be important to note that the very first instance of Dess being mentioned in-game is by inspecting the angel doll in Rudy's hospital room. An angel Noelle and Dess made. A possible hint that Dess (the Knight) and Noelle (the Angel) will work together to bring the Angel's Heaven.
Ralsei states that the SOUL holds the "Fate" of the world. Spamton also seems to know about the power of souls, and their apparent ability to allow one to reach "heaven". This leads me to suspect that whoever controls the SOUL during the Roaring has the potential to reshape the world as they see fit. So perhaps Dess is merely trying to bring herself back as a Lightner and save her dad's life, but doing so puts the world in danger.
Ralsei I also suspect is a creation of the titans meant to watch over the dark fountain, and prevent Lightners from learning the truth that their world is merely a simulation created by higher beings. But they are also lonely and try to make friends with other lightners and darkners. However, whenever they do try to help someone, they get overzealous and end up revealing too much information, or end up doing something they believe is kind but has serious consequences on the world. (ie he was the one that corrupted Jevil and Spamton in the past, but did so by accident) Ralsei has no form of their own, their current form is merely copying a character Asriel portrayed years ago and the Legend is just using the same game's story as a cover to get Kris to help fix his mistakes while still keeping the full truth of the world a secret. I can see us giving him the vessel and name we made in the intro so he can be free to be his own person.
This is a really unique theory! :O I definitely think Dess is going to be important later, and it's entirely possibe the bunker was involved, too. The one thing I disagree with is Kris being possessed by anything but the player. I think that when Kris tears the soul out, that's them trying to break from our control, but it's painful and difficult, so they have to put the soul back in after too long. Dess being the knight would be QUITE interesting and I could see it happening.
You've come to a lot of the same conclusions as me! We must think alike. I'm personally not sure about the Bunker, or the true fate of Dess but! I 100% agree that whatever incident caused her initial fate (whether she died or went missing) is more than likely what led to Asgore being removed from the Police Force. I also believe you're right about the occult magic, what's interesting about that is Catti specifically states she taught Noelle "defense spells" or something to that effect, and Noelle is so far the only lightner we know of who ALREADY KNOWS things like Sleep Mist and Heal Prayer (keep in mind, Susie had to be taught heal prayer by Ralsei and at the moment it costs all of their Tension Points just for her to heal 2 HP). I've been trying to focus on thinking of the stuff that's more concrete, but I really like your take on extrapolating a larger narrative from this! Either way, we definitely agree there is going to be a lot more for Noelle in regards to the overall plot than what we've got in Chapter 2, a LOT more.
@@0Cocoron0 Didn't Susie always have rude buster?
Coming back to this after the stuff I noticed in the Spamstakes, I can’t help but wonder if Kris has picked up on how each world seems to be tailor made for someone (Susie in chapter one, Noelle in two) to grow as a person and decided to go ‘ME NEXT’ damn the consequences of potentially starting the roaring.
What specially bothers me is how people seem to be making the assumption that people who defend Kris from being evil or malicious automatically assume a lot of things about the person, namely, wanting to make Kris into a saint who does no wrong or is "just an innocent victim", when that's not the point
Kris is no innocent, they're a very troubled kid, possibly socially awkward and with very odd things they enjoy, but this should not mean they're evil or something of the sort, if anything, it just shows they're willing to risk potentially cause the end of the world if it means they get to make more friends or connect more with them, as well as possible fix people's issues?
It's clear that while Kris is being controlled, it's not full control, Kris at times is capable of speaking their own mind, they're experiencing everything as much as the Player is, and there's no reason to think Kris hasn't been affected or, to some level, changed by it as much as Susie, Ralsei, Noelle or Berdly have, and given how long the adventures take and how invested everyone is, i think it's silly to think Kris didn't form bonds with any of them at all or considers them friends, so it's very likely Kris is motivated by a need to keep firends close to them, possibly out of fear they'll leave if they don't
Yeah, that's the frustrating thing, for sure. I've had so many people boil my argument down to "Kris is a cinnamon roll" when that's... not the point? I probably coulda been clearer about what they did still being reckless, but... geez. It's like grey areas don't exist.
@@Dorked Pretty much, and i think this is becoming a big issue in the community, there's a LOT of assumptions about each sides that go around
If i may open an old wound of mine, this is the whole Chara Defenders vs Chara Offenders
while each had their arguments, it really did seem like it devolved into "warring" against each other by making fun of the users who subscribed to the other, refused to stablish actual conversation and made stereotypes of one another, and that's just one of the "controversial" theories you find.
I really wish the community could get past this kind of thing or at least minimize it enough, i love theorizing and making guesses on games but if people get at each other's throats like that and dont listen because the other already thinks they know what they'll hear and are uninterested, it's just not fun
Anyways sory for the wall of text, i'll leave now
Yet another fantastic breakdown; Kris being a well-meaning, if still a bit messed-up kid is _far_ more interesting than being a played straight Villain Protagonist in my eyes, and I’m happy that people have been able to read between the lines with their actions ^_^
Rather fitting for the Deltarune incarnation of Chara to be the focal point of Alternate Character Interpretation, I suppose…! ;)
I love Kris, they deserve lots of love and hugs!! (with respect and their consent obviously.)
I think this makes a lot of sense, and I think it is going to end up being either a massive own goal for Kris. There's a lot of room for this to go wrong. The knight could exploit the Lightners' distraction to open more fountains. They could open up a fountain adjacent to the one Kris opened, letting a large amount of darkness into the Light World. They could act against the Lightners while they're stuck in the Dark World. Or maybe Kris just gets away scot free with it this time and that emboldens them to open more fountains in the future, this time under circumstances where it sticks.
We also see real consequences to actions in the Dark World. Berdly can get killed on the Weird Route... or he can end up with a paralysed arm on the normal route if the player is careless. We might eventually get into a situation where someone is permanently injured or even dies *regardless* of the player's commands. Our choices don't matter after all, and there's a limit to the extent to which we can command (increasingly just persuade) or manipulate the other characters even if we aren't being actively malevolent. The kinds of RPGs Deltarune is parodying (I mean that in the serious sense of the word) often have unavoidable plot line deaths in addition to avoidable ones, sometimes frustratingly so as the player can see them coming a mile away, but can't direct the characters to prevent them. I wouldn't be surprised to see someone die in Deltarune regardless of our actions to try to prevent it.
The creepy smile on the TV and the fact that a disaster movie is on signals that this could also be a particularly hostile Dark World or a Dark World with a more active Shadow Crystal holder. Jevil was stuck in his cell and doesn't really do anything unless you seek him out. Spamton actively intercepts the party, but requires a very specific path be followed in order to face his worst. We could see the Shadow Crystal holder in the third world actively track down the party, especially with Seam's ominous warning that they are indestructible without the Shadow Mantle, and Spamton's warnings about 'Mike' and 'Don't trust everything you see on TV!'. Kris may have unleashed something very nasty here, and left the gates unmanned to let in more.
I can't describe how much I love this video. It makes a lotta sense qnd has a lot of evidence behind it.
Kris obviously loves being in the Dark World, adventures and fun make him forget, if only temporarily, what's going on at home.
The idea that Kris constantly visits asgore is supported as asgore talks to him like it's a semi common thing. He probably misses his family being together, and the idea that Asgore was the past police chief, he could hear about the whole his eggs-wife car got slashed, and I could see him charging in before undyne.
People assume that off behavior = Villain. That's whats so stupid about Ralsei is Evil theory as well
Just because characters are hiding something doesn't mean they're evil
This is exactly what I was thinking. Despite how bad everything Kris does _looks,_ it's actually just innocent wholesomeness.
This is really well put together. I use to believe that Kris was the knight, but this video does make sense as to why they may not be. I believe though that Kris opened the dark fountain at the end because of Susie since she said it would be cool if Ralsei and Lancer came to their world. So my belief is Kris opened the door to let the darkness take over Hometown, turned on the T.V. (for a reason I can't figure out), and stared at Susie for a moment as a way of hinting that they are doing this for her and in order to keep their adventure alive. Susie has shown to be concerned about their friendship as much as Kris too because before they jump into the supply closet again, Susie asks Kris, "If we, uh, open this and there's nothing inside...will, uh, we still be..." but then she cuts off her sentence.
I've believed that Kris was the knight, and just tried to do what they wanted to do, that not necessarily being evil, but still being negligent of important things that could harm them in the long run, and would eventually learn later on to acknowledge and learn from their mistakes (though that's based off of nothing, and I forgot about details from chapter 1, where the knight appears to actively want to cause harm.) And in the weird route, they'd realize "Ok, whatever this soul is making me do isn't okay, and I need to stop it." (again, based off nothing, just a thought.) It's nice to get my memory refreshed and see why my "theory" could be wrong.
The way you thought of the player's commands made me imagine if Kris was like a genie
"* Fight"
"alright" *rips out soul*
"Oh, you want to fight? Then fight!"
* They throw you toward the enemy!
I believe that knight could be gaster. He wanted to make a kind of body for the player before being interrupted by a third party based on the type value being a 2 instead of 66 like gaster. He clearly wanted you the player to be ready n an experiment so had to find another way of making it possible. I will point out how the man behind the tree is most likely gaster based on having to dip in-between rooms, he disappears after you get the egg, and the 2nd tree dialogue references entry 17 by saying what do you think? Instead of what do you two think. This leads to the egg itself being translated in wingdings. The symbols it turns into it s the same movement of a knight chess piece. Lastly hard to hear vocals in Big Shot. Spamton in the song can be heard asking the knight to pick up the phone. Both the garbage noise and relationship phones have with gaster and the fact spamton almost tell you something about the knight before someone interrupts him. Also gaster has connections with jevil which spamton mentions as the clown around town and in his neo fight. Also the whole knowing my reality is fake thing.
Gaster is definitely a factor here in at least some capacity. Whether he's the knight or opposing the knight remains to be seen, and I can see interesting cases being made for both.
So "e g g" in wing dings spells out the direction a knight moves in chess?
HOLY FRICK
@@Dorked There is some implications from Spamton.
The garbage noise from their phone implies information from Gaster/Whatever is in the Bunker.
Likewise some interpretations of the background voice in the Spamton fight have him asking the Knight to pick up the phone which means that Gaster either is chasing the Knight or is the Knight.
Spamton, I think, says Mike instead of Knight... we know that Mike is the one who launched him to success, so it would make sense if Spamton wanted mike to answer
@@neuro3834 gaster Launched him into success but one could say "mike" is just what he could call gaster
Interesting.
Perhaps the Knight knows Kris personally?
Jevil and Spamton, both hidden bosses, are both linked into freedom.
Jevil's fractured mind being his freedom.
Spamton desiring his freeing Heaven.
But yes, Kris is driven by his desire to enjoy his first friendship.
He lost his brother, possibly fracturing his soul, hence why we gain control of him, and he wants to be rid of us.
But why the delay until a week before his brother's return?
Simple.
It's not loosing his brother that fractured his soul.
It's the fear of a new Asriel coming home.
That may be, because despite Ralsei looking like his brother, Kris has no reaction to his tea.
But here's a point: There were 2 fountains in Chapter 1.
The one that's been in the center closet, and the one in the right closet, with Card Castle.
So someone made Ralsei's Dark Fountain before.
This may be all over the place.
I tend to explain in string board.
I've been thinking for the past few days about some of the points you brought up in this video, and I was trying to make sense out of them, but couldn't quite put something together. Thanks a lot for the theory, it's really well explained and on point with evidence :3
I can see Kris opening a fountain as a means to getting closer to people
While I don't think Kris is evil, I do think he may become some sort of "New Knight". Seeing how his previous adventures helped him make new friends, he may want to create more fountains than just the one at his home in the future. Considering how he left the door open, he probably wants other people to come in and join him and Susie like Noelle and Berdly did (although the people who are going to come are probably just the police), so that he can make more friends, perhaps.
Kris may also be tied to the same "person?" that Jevil and Spamton are probably tied to. Both of them are tied to the subject of "freedom", and considering how Kris already ripped the player out of himself three times, he may also want to be free from the player's control. This might also be why he was particularly disturbed after the Spamton NEO boss fight. Also, if this "person?" possibly tied to Jevil and Spamton really is Gaster, than Kris might have already met him, which is supported by how his phone in the Dark World always plays the same garbage noise that played in Spamton's phone (pointed out by one of the Ad folks) and Entry Number 17.
This is definitely interesting to think about
I think it's worth noting the intro sequence of the game, where you make a custom character that's immediately discarded.
It's possible the one leading you through the process... and shunting the soul that you are into Kris's body, is Gaster himself. The deliberate, slow speech patterns and the "excellent. Truly excellent." sort of things where there's short sentences of interjections and the like are kind of similar to how Entry 17 is worded, plus the music during "character creation" sounds like it could be a derivative from Gaster's motif, albiet pretty loose so that it isn't OBVIOUS.
Gaster gave Jevil and Spamton different glimpses of freedom, only for the both of them to lose it in one way or another. One was too mad to even recognize what had happened, the other is painfully aware. Perhaps Kris had entered that red door way back when and got traumatic memories from interacting with Gaster, had some sort of awareness granted him that also led to a decline of normalcy (he has his own personal knife he carries everywhere and does lots of things Toriel just finds normal nowadays but everyone else isn't so trusting of), and the player Soul being stuck in Kris is the final takeaway of "true freedom" needed.
There's the initial "price" and the final "price", and the decline is always a gradual one. For Spamton, it was success at the cost of his old friends. For Jevil, it was losing his ties with Seam. For Kris, it was growing apart from Noelle and Dess. The initial price is the information one learns and the behaviors one adopts seems to come in the form of social disconnect.
Then the final price: for Spamton, it was his success becoming moot and ending up dirt poor, living in "a goddamn garbage can". For Jevil, it was being locked away in a cage, never to see the light of day or have another playmate again. And for Kris... it was the most damning imprisonment of all: loss of bodily agency, at the hands of the Player Soul.
Meeting Gaster, gaining knowledge, becoming socially disconnected, declining in sanity, and finally being "imprisoned". If we make the assumption Kris interacted with Gaster at some point, perhaps earlier in life, then the bits and pieces we know about their past (knew Noelle but got distant, talked about by others as always acting strange, went in those red doors as a kid and didn't like what he saw, and of course, is the one the heart got shunted into) suddenly seem to create a third entry in a nice pattern of those who have met Gaster in the past. Two isn't necessarily a pattern, but three moreso is.
Perhaps this is all coincidence, but I think it lines up... a bit too well.
One thing that struck me is that queen said that anyone with enough determination could make a dark fountain and then the end of that same chapter kris makes one. This tells me that kris only just got the idea to make a fountain from queen and then immediately took steps to do it.
DANG this is a very good analysis of kris. im glad i subbed after your papyrus vid was in my recommendations recently, your analysis of characters that get severely overlooked by most people. good stuff, keep it up :D
So glad to see your 2nd character analysis video. Loved your take on the story being conveyed!
I feel like the Knight is the man who gives you the egg. There has been a theory that "egg" when translated to Wingdings becomes "👈☝☝"; the movement pattern of the Knight in Chess.
My theory is that the lightner version of the Knight is the man who waves at you at the traffic jam in Chapter 2 (if you have collected the egg in Chapter 1). So he might be the "large person who can easily fit inside".
But that's just my hunch atm, haha.
Glad someone finally brought this up! I never liked the idea of Kris being evil...
I swear I absolutely love your theories. They actually make sense and don't go off the rails
I never noticed a lot of the details you pointed out in this video this was a super well put together video and It changed the way I think about Deltarune Chapter 2's ending. Great video!
There are two things that would say that Kris is the Knight, 1. "It is not yet time to wash your hands" How would Kris (And Kris is clearly the narrator, as proven by the dialogue with the Berdly statue) know that in the morning, BEFORE Queen mentioned that all lightners could create fountains. Their plan might not actually have been to make Susie stay, maybe they actually trusted Susie would come anyways to hang out with them, since Susie seems to have even less friends than Kris (Just doesn't care as much about feeling lonely), and their plan was to make Toriel and Undyne enter the dark world, since Toriel was probably already planning to make a pie, they knew this was the perfect opportunity to create a new dark fountain, yet if they weren't the Knight, how would they even know? And why would they rip out their heart, which seems to leave them in a really bad state, just to eat pie? And as someone mentioned, Susie didn't notice until the floor started falling that she was in a dark world, she just thought the lights were off, which could've happened to Noelle and Berdly, they could have left their books on the table, so they could have their hands free so they could look for the light switch and then fell into the Cyber world. Also many seem to think that the Knight is necessarily evil which means Kris isn't the Knight because they have proven to not be evil, but as you said, having more than one fountain for a few hours is harmless, and gives Kris a fun adventure to go trough. Some say that why would Kris create that, they didn't know Alphys would tell them to go get chalk, but maybe their plan was just to go on that adventure alone after school, not go with Susie in the middle of class. But they realized that adventures with friends were fun, so knowing since the internet was down and Noelle, who they knew they could obviously befriend if they were able to befriend Susie this way, was a bookworm so other than Berdly there was probably not gonna be anyone else there and might as well bring Berdly along anyways, so that night they stumbled their way to the library and created a Dark Fountain, then went back home (Which of course took a lot of energy out of them, which is why they were asleep the whole class). And 2. Ralsei seems to have been clearly made to be like Asriel was, which no one who was close to him would've felt that lonely to try to recreate him, I mean, there's Asgore of course but if he did that he wouldn't have stayed out of the dark worlds, and why would he have created the first two in the school, and the third in the library, all places a student, like Kris would go to. And yes, Ralsei tea doesn't heal them that much but like, even if technically he's real Ralsei is pretty much an imaginary friend. To Kris specifically though, not the Player, as he's shown talking to Kris off-camera (And probably knows about Kris' situation). #Ralsei seems to share Kris's knowledge, knowing all about Kris (And just what Kris knows about Susie), so actually maybe Ralsei tea doesn't heal Kris a lot for the same reason one's own tea only heals them 10, Ralsei might be like an extension of Kris that is not under Player control. This would actually make it make a lot of sense as why Ralsei only notices Cyber world when you enter it, he didn't sense a dark presences he just got the knowledge that Kris and Susie arrived there from Kris.# Which would be odd if someone else made Ralsei, though I admit what I put between the two # is a lot of speculation and doesn't have the strongest of bases. But the rest of the argument still stands, who else would want to make a new Asriel, quite specially a younger version of him, than his little brother.
This is a great video that aligns really closely with my own thoughts! I personally never suspected Kris as the knight due to the fact that, as you mentioned, there are still at least 5 chapters remaining and that I believe it's a pretty clear red herring. I feel like people tend to ignore Kris' more heroic actions (especially pertaining to their friendship with Susie) to frame them as the villain in the story, which most likely is to absolve the player themselves from any guilt--especially in the Snowgrave route.
I also saw an interesting post on tumblr that speculated that December, Noelle's sister, is trapped in a dark world, which provides another potential reason of why Kris opened another fountain; they're trying to find Dess (the "Lost Girl", if you will lol). The post noted that Kris is clearly freaked out by the bunker, and something must've caused Kris to lose their soul and leave them to the fate of possession, considering all creatures are born with a soul.
Some speculate that Dess is dead, but the lack of her grave in the graveyard next to the church suggests otherwise. As well as that, Noelle is shown to repeatedly have searched up the date of Christmas, or in other words "December Holiday", which is not something you would do for a dead relative--however, it would make sense if Noelle was searching for any new information on a missing relative.
There's a lot more speculation the post goes into, but I don't what this to get too long lol. The link is theamazingsallyhogan.tumblr.com/post/663249972697907200/great-big-massive-spoilers-under-the-cut-part-1 in case you want to give it a read!
This was a wonderful video! I've been under the impression that Kris couldn't be the Knight for a while now and your evidence as to what Kris's motives might be may have made them an even more endearing character for me lol, thanks for taking the time to make this!
Honestly who do I think is the knight? Toby Fox himself.
I mean he WAS The only one in the computer room at that time.
Toby being the knight is totally possible! But the library is a public space, so it's also possible someone else came in before Noelle and Berdly, hid in the closet, and remained hidden the entire time, thereby lurking and watching from a distance in cyber world. ...Or fled as the dark world formed, but that would attract attention, so I assume the former.
Toby could’ve hidden in that closet!
Also I wouldn’t completely rule out Kris being the knight. After Chris ate the pie He could’ve gone into the library at night possibly sneaking against the guards.
Also I do think Chara MIGHT be in Deltarune, because I mean The voice that cuts off gaster does sound a bit familiar. But hey that’s just me
@@GustavStarr But the thing is (and I talked about this in the video), Kris couldn't have made that fountain. Noelle and Berdly were studying in the computer room before it formed (their books are on the table when the fountain closes and they were sitting down), and Kris was at school all day until they and Susie got to the library after the fact. So that rules out the cyber world fountain.
Oh sorry I didn’t really understand it.
Show my new candidates for The knight are either: toby Fox (The really funny and cool answer) gaster (the “well that’s not really creative” answer) or a new character that will be revealed in either chapter 3 or 4 (the “probably” answer)
Or The coolest answer: The knight isn’t one specific being they are just a force that compels people to create dark fountains.
By the way I really like your AU it genuinely got me to feel emotions I love your work
You know, i think there's 2 different characters, Kris, wich is a normal kid, and the Knight wich is the one who opens the fountains, i think the Knight opens the fountains based on Kris desires for some reason, like in the first chapter, to spend time with Susie to be her friend, in the second chapter to encourage Noelle to having more confidence and Berdly to be more humble, maybe the next chapter, like you said, Kris wants to stay with Susie and fix Toriel and Asgore realtionship... Maybe that's why the knight opened the door like you said
I never thought kris was the knight. Toby wouldn't just straight up show us the knight in the first 2 chapters. It simply isn't a "Toby Fox" thing to do.
I know, it's way too obvious
Hi Dorked ! Nice to see some videos from you after a couple of time XD
Honestly compared to the other stuff I've seen about Deltarune (Snowgrave Route, The relationship between Kris and the Player, Everything with Spamton) This is more wholesome which is welcome.
I agree with basically all the factors you've mentioned here! I'm personally in the camp that if Kris is the knight, there's still going to be a greater evil (Ralsei don't you betray us now-) that will unite the team fully, and act as a true antagonist. I also dislike the "GaStEr Is ThE kNiHgT" theories, because it's kiiinda implied through the phrasing of everything that he's, at most, the guy who hands out literal easter eggs to the player, and at the very least, some dude who trolled the player by yeeting out their Vessel at the start of the game. I'd love to see a new, unique character be the final boss! Or, y'know, do the biggest troll in history and make Jerry the knight or something.
if he handed the eggs then let me tell you that "EGG" in windings shows how a kingth moves in chess probs a strech but still
Gaster’s pretty much confirmed to be the reason for why both Jevil and Spamton are insane, what with it being said that on the other end of the phone Spamton was using had “garbage noise”, which when you check your phone it’s the background noise from entry number 17, I think what’s gonna happen is he’s gonna be part of the “true” or “secret” ending, probably if you get all the eggs and give seam the shadow crystals from the extra bosses.
I doubt that he’s completely unimportant and I think he *is* gonna be expanded on a lot in future chapters in summary
Then the Knight has to be something connected to Gaster, maybe the vessel we created in Chapter 1?
My impression was that “The Knight” simply refers to whoever happened to create the current Dark Fountain. So, Kris IS the Knight of Fountain #4 and Chapter 3’s Dark World, but we can’t know for sure if they’re the Knight of the first three. However, we DO know that Kris is the only lightner we’ve seen with the ability to create fountains, and I can’t imagine they just got it right on the first try.
Also, I don’t think your arguments for the tire-slashing hold up at all. Plenty of villains and anti-heroes mean well, and MANY end up endangering the world for those they care about. Kris ignoring the warnings about Ragnarok and dragging a whole mess of people into an unfamiliar world with no information is not a heroic move.
Oh yeah, I don't actually think it was heroic. I was trying to explain it from, like. Their perspective if that makes sense. Like, what might've motivated Kris. It is definitely selfish and reckless. The "is it really so bad if there's one more?" Was in relation to like... Kris might just think if they fix it later, it's fine. I absolutely expect Kris' actions here to have consequences, but I see them as a copycat rather than THE Knight of the previous chapters. Basically, Kris' heroism and stuff was just to highlight that I think they do have some good intentions and care about their friends. They are genuine in that and aren't like faking it all while manipulating it all behind the scenes.
Ralaei the tutorial guy was scares of berrdly creating a fountain on his first try
Berdly was gonna create a fountain as well.
We did see Berdly and Noelle have the ability, otherwise Ralsei wouldn't have needed to stop them. I believe the Queen mentions any Lightner can which might give a good reason to do the alternative route for much later...
Really good video and theory. earned a sub :)
this makes so much sense, thanks for the good theory and analysis
Finally, a theory that makes sense and doesn’t just say “GASTER!”
the deltarune fandom loves pinning anything even slightly unexplained on gaster
@@ketaminepoptarts So true, everytime i hear gaster in a theory i fucking die inside
@@Ultrasteel74 the only gaster related deltarune theory i believe is thats hes the egg man. red herring easter egg handing out easter eggs is Good
every single unsolved mystery and the whole fandom screeches "OMG CHARA IS A DEMON CHILD AND MUST HAVE DID IT!!! WAIT NO NO NO THE GUY WHOS AS DEAD AS PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE AND SCATTERED ACROSS TIME AND SPACE MUST HAVE MANIPULATED IT ALL!!!!!11!!!!!"
What I understood was that opening a fountain made Kris a 'knight' but kris isn't 'the knight'/'the roaring knight'
about Kris being terrified by spamton:
reasons for why this might be are,
spamton knows about kris' soul (ralsei seems to be the only other character who knows about it)
spamton, like kris is being controlled, it seems when kris broke spamton's strings and destroyed spamton, kris got the impression if he broke from his strings, he would die or something
about ralsei:
a lot of things make him suspicious
he's way too nice
he keeps a lot of secrets (considering that he waited so long to tell us about the roaring)
when Noelle drinks ralsei tea, she says the cup is empty
he knows what the light world is like
when ralsei dies in battle, he disappears, leaving his clothes behind, none of the darkners do this
he doesn't turn to stone when in other dark worlds
he and the game constantly pressure you to have kris hug ralsei, despite asgore telling us that kris doesn't like hugs
my personal theory is that ralsei is bringing all the darkners to castle town, to do what flowey did in true pacifist and steal their souls
I don't know why he would do this, but it does sort of match up
Ralsei not turning to stone could maybe be explained because the dark world he's from had a particularly strong fountain
@@Jamal-xj1vk what makes it stronger?
@@bumblingBird- it can hold all the othrr darkners so we have to believe him on that
@@diegorafaelgarciagodosonof161 Yeah that
Also when you use snowgrave on a normal enemie it plays a desintegrating animation
Kris could have been inspired to make the fountain by queen's speech about how anyone with determination could make one?
I figured the Knight is the player - the instant we arrived, we found an unwilling vessel in Kris and suddenly dark fountains had started to appear all over the place. The story is a deconstruction of this idea that there HAS to be this "player character", and that character NEEDS to overcome great adversity (i.e. the dark fountains) or else there would be no story. Kris has no choice in the matter of whether or not another dark fountain will open up; there *has* to be more because the player demands it from the game.
It’s the vessel we created at the beginning of the game isn’t it?
@@wildberrysherbert3803 possibly! that's what i think the twist will be
I really like how Toby hammered in the note that kris’s creepy voice doesn’t really sound like him. He made it a plot point that we the player are controlling him and that shit is cool.
Kris screaming after the Spamton Neo fight was so heartbreaking. Just by playing the game you're controlling his actions and he clearly hates it.
Dorked, you are the most amazing person u know and I tell ya to keep up with your work.
WOW, I really like this theory more thanany other on the subject, I actually never thought Kris as the villain but never analized it in such depth, I like your style!
I know this is kind of bare minimum, but thank you so much for referring to kris with their proper pronouns. It's honestly incredibly disappointing that people still use he pronouns for them despite never using those in the game at all
yup
why r people still making theories abt the villian, its so obvious that its the player lol, thats what toby wants us to think
I hope by the end it's gonna be a bit more complicated than that. Because genuinely, most players don't have bad intentions. Many don't even realize Kris is their own person and they are harming them by controlling them. I hope, at least in the non-weird route, we can get to know Kris better and they might sort of accept us.
@@samgeorge1452 I mean not knowing you're causing harm doesn't make you any less responsible.
@@Pinwheelsystem True, but "not intending to cause harm but doing so anyway and then trying to make it better" is a pretty common idea in both Undertale and Deltarune. And I just...don't think it would be a good writing choice or just fun, to make the player the villain for merely playing a game, y'know?
Agree with you. Further points:
🗡️ Queen is the one who told Kris how fountains are opened. She described how the Knight did it, and the process was reiterated a couple of times to/by other characters in that same scene.
🌟 Kris likes researching black magic - really all magic. It's part of their implied issues with being human among monsters. (Remember when they asked when their horns would grow in? And their discomfort at photos of humans?) They would be very keen on a world that gives them special capabilities. It's not a coincidence that they can only save in the dark worlds.
🐊 As they approached the fountain and afterwards, Susie implicitly wished their adventures would continue when she said it wasn't all bad that the fountains showed up.
🐐 Not related to Kris's motivations, but Toriel lied about the sugar. She had it with her (and was eating it) while setting up for baking. She actually went outside because she saw something - she was trying not to worry the kids.
This is a very well put together video, and really changed my opinion on Kris. I had always hoped they weren’t the bad guy! Of course, you never know what else Toby could throw at us. Very nice video :D
Yea, the scene where Kris opens a dark fountain doesn't mean he is the Knight, after all in chaoter 1 we all thought Kris was Chara but for now we don't actually have much evidence that he is Chara, but some of the evidence you talked about in the video isn't that good in my opinion, like the fact that Kris didn't want Susie to go so he slashed the tires, there isn't that much proof for this. Well but Im more on the side that Kris is good and I don't believe that he is the Knight. Like we see a Lightner create a Dark Fountain jjst after we discovered that all Lightners can do that, also if Kris was the Knight wouldn't he have some better things than a wooden sword when we first go into Dark world.
Honestly, I strongly dislike this "Kris just wants to have another adventure" theory that's been going around. It smells of one half of the blame-shifting that has resulted in the debate that has turned Kris' undertale counterpart into a duo of parodies that are respectively a perfect angel and literally Satan.
And ultimately, it's so irrelevant:It's frankly worse if Kris is just doing it for fun.
About the whole "Kris backed away from the closet" thing, my understanding is that as the main dark world that all darkners can survive in, that dark world has always existed, it's natural and necessary for the balance between light and dark. Kris also shows familiarity with the dark world, so it's not the first time they've visited.
The "library staff would have found it" thing seems like a stretch:The library is deserted when Kris and Susie arrive, except perhaps for the Striped Bird that seems obsessed with the second floor. We haven't seen any staff, unless said Bird is the librarian, so we can probably assume there aren't many staff and it's run mainly by volunteers like Berdly. Besides, Queen's dialogue would tend to imply it has been a decent length of time since the fountain's creation, a few hours at least.
As for King not recognizing Kris, that's... honestly kind of a silly argument to make:We don't know how much King has interacted with the Knight, or gotten any description of the Knight from him. King could have never gotten a good look at them, they could be wearing an outfit that obscures their appearance, etc. One other possible explanation is my own theory.
What I think is that the Knight is controlling Kris. Their motivation for doing this would be pretty simple:Kris is one of the three heroes. Control them, they can potentially control the outcome of a predetermined prophecy.
This would explain a lot of things:the opening of fountains, the ripping out of Kris' own soul, the fact that Noelle hears a voice not belonging to Kris in Snowgrave, and Kris' apparently out-of-character behavior during the events of the game.
I think the Knight is controlling Kris, likely even influencing them at times when it's not tear-Kris'-soul-out blatant, without player knowledge and with only minimal knowledge from Kris.
This is unrelated but given Toriel's status as an overprotective mother, if Snowgrave-style routes continue she's probably next in line for gaslighting. If Asgore ends up in there... he might be next in line to die trying to put a stop to it. If not, it will probably be Undyne(let's be real, Napstablook, despite being a cop as well, probably won't end up in the dark world.), which with Toriel's fire magic, means cooked fish for dinner.
I mean, Kris doing it for adventure and escapism is definitely not a GOOD thing. But I think it's more of a "they're a teen with a life that up until recently has been lonely and these adventures have given them something more than that even if it is at the cost of most of their agency." I'm not saying that makes them an innocent angel since it's putting their own wishes before the safety of those who get dragged in. Rather, I was trying to explain a possible motive for them trying to open a fountain despite Ralsei's warning. I just see it as a logical assumption to make given that Susie wanted their dark world friends to meet others from the light world, Noelle and Berdly seemed excited at the prospect of just opening more fountains. If we take the tea values to mean that Kris may not trust Ralsei as much as Susie and Noelle, it could also be a way to stick it to Ralsei. ...Which also isn't good, but I can see it being a possible factor. Kris obviously isn't wholly innocent or wholly evil, but I wanted to highlight WHY they might open a fountain and why they aren't just "zomg Kris evil demon knight" as I have seen some people assume the worst.
I'm not sure if Kris really has that much familiarity with the dark worlds, though. They have a save file, but it's entirely possible that they have saved on the surface at some point or another (their dark world data is at 0:00). And even then, there's still the fact that Berdly and Noelle were already studying and the closet being a clear chekov's gun. I don't believe Toby would put in such a specific detail about a large person just for it to be a fluke. The unused OST during the stream also distinguished the knight as a separate person (I forgot to add it to the video but is interesting to note). I've actually seen it speculated that Kris could save on the surface, but only they could do so and since taking control of their body, we only have access to saves in dark world. It's debatable but an interesting thought.
I don't think the Knight is controlling Kris. We are. We choose to do Snowgrave. We can make them act in ways that are strange to the people around them. Not every run is going to have a Snowgrave outcome, so I feel like using Snowgrave as evidence for the knight controlling Kris is a bit weird.
@@Dorked i just wanted to say something--
don't know if it's just me, but one time i saved in the first savepoint and it was written "[EMPTY]" instead of "KRIS". idek how i got that
@@nightfall_9411 It only shows Kris on your very first playthrough. After that, it will display as empty.
@@DorkedI understand your argument that Kris is doing it for the sake of adventure. I don't see why Kris would feel the need to open their own dark fountains, though. The knight has already opened at least two, and Kris has no reason to believe that it intends to take a break. Once the knight is dealt with, maybe, but given that Kris has no reason not to trust Ralsei that opening fountains, and the Knight is already opening fountains around hometown, opening more seems like it would be playing with fire. Especially when they're also dragging their mother into what they know is a potentially dangerous situation while she sleeps.
Susie's desire to bring their dark world friends into the light world and Noelle and Berdly's excitement at the idea of opening more fountains are both based on a lack of information that Kris knows:Susie doesn't realize that Darkners turn into inanimate objects in the light world, while Kris is the one who transports the contents of the unused classroom and library to their new home in Castle Town, as well as carrying Lancer and Rouxls around in card form. Noelle, Berdly, and Queen's desire to open more fountains faded the moment they were told about the Roaring. Kris knows this, if anything it makes it less likely that they would risk it.
While Kris certainly doesn't seem to like Ralsei as much as Susie or Noelle, they also don't seem to dislike him, since Ralsei tea does still heal Kris more than Ralsei and Noelle's tea heal each other.(It seems likely that a negative relationship would be worse than no relationship at all, tasting bad rather than having very little taste.) I also don't think that sticking it to a disliked person would be a valid reason to risk endangering the entire world after you've worked to protect it twice makes any sense. Seems comparable to detonating a nuke because you aren't sure what it is and someone you don't like told you that they're destructive.
The narration describes that Kris uses the first save point in chapter 1 as if by second nature, a clear show of familiarity. Yes, it's technically possible that they could have saved on the surface, but the lack of save points in Hometown means that there's no evidence to suggest that that is the case, nor do we have any idea if light world save files apply to the dark world or vice versa. The current evidence suggests that Kris was already familiar with the dark world.
I disagree with your calling the closet being a clear chekov's gun. Aside from the possibility of it being a red herring, it's not unlikely that the closet is the light world equivalent of Queen's palace, and the "large person" references her giant robot. And Noelle and Berdly thinking that they were already studying may just be the same sort of thing as how the library and unused classroom dark worlds being recent creations, but that its inhabitants remember living entire lifetimes, and in King and Queen's case remember a previous relationship of some kind despite hailing from dark worlds which never existed at the same time. Not to mention the possibility of the two of them attempting to rationalize their experience as being just a dream, especially in Snowgrave, much like how Susie questioned whether the events of chapter 1 had really happened, to the point that she had difficulty sleeping.
I am aware of Toby's comments on the unused OST, and I do agree that they show that Kris themself is not the knight. Further evidence of this is that while Kris is referred to by they/them pronouns, Queen refers to the Knight as "it", an odd choice of pronouns for a person, which doesn't really prove anything, but seems designed to differentiate the Knight from Kris. Like I said, my theory is that Kris is being controlled by the knight, rather than being the knight or doing it out of their for the sake of adventure. The speculation about Kris saving in the light world is just that, however, as there is no evidence to support it as of now.
I don't agree with the theory that the player is directly controlling Kris, but I also don't see why you seem to think it is incompatible with the Knight controlling them. Perhaps the player and the knight are competing for control. And your point about using Snowgrave as evidence for the knight controlling Kris is equally applicable to the player controlling Kris.
(sorry for the delay in responding, I haven't really had time to write out an adequate response.)
I appreciate this take a lot! I had initially thought Kris was the knight after first playing chapter 2 but I've definitely come around. One thing I found interesting after replaying deltarune recently is that Susie is essentially the protagonist of Chapter 1; even if you aren't in control of her most of the time, or even get to see what she's up to, she's the one who has the defining emotional arc - learning to be friends with Kris, take a more nuanced approach to solving conflict, even confronting the King who mirrors her darker side in a lot of ways including shared dialogue...
and then Noelle more or less has the defining character arc of Chapter 2, even though she isn't around for as much of it, she's the one who grows and learns to be more confident and even stands up to Queen the way I assume she wishes she could stand up to her mom (at least in the normal route)...
So that does make sense that if Kris realizes that each dark world seems to be helping Lightners grow and become happier, they would want to create a third one not just for themselves but for anyone else who got involved. But it does make me wonder when we're going to get a Dark World that's "about" Kris. Maybe that'll be this next one.
I also wonder if some of the things Spamton said to them got them curious, like maybe they'll figure out more about what's going on with them and how to be freed from the player's/the game's control if they visit another Dark World. I realize they still do the same thing even if you didn't meet spamton neo but it could be a case of the same action having different motivations depending on circumstance...
That opening transition from falling to battle is so slick.
Excellent video! You came up with plenty of points that I didn't consider.
I think Kris IS, but not the way we think.
I am almost convinced that Kris, when they rip out their heart, is not Kris. The reason I say this is because this is an action they made, not us, and during Snowgrave I really feel like witnessing an event like that would make Kris feel like "I don't want to play anymore." Because... yeah.
I gobbled your first character analysis up as soon as I found it ^-^ I love Papyrus and I love analysis. I just wanted to say, either for future videos or if it's feasible to go back and tweak this video, the music is a little loud, and it's a bit hard to hear all the wonderful analysis ^-^
if you do more videos on stuff like this, i'd LOVE one about your thoughts on ralsei and what his deal is.
I have some thoughts on Ralsei for sure, but I'd need to replay the game to properly formulate them, haha. I plan to anyway since I wanna do a larger Kris analysis as well as a Berdly video, tho.
Kris being the Knight is a red herring and I will die on this hill till I’m either proven right or horribly wrong
I do think that Kris is creating the fountain with good intention, whatever it might mean to them, too. All of your evidence and the main conclusion are great and I wish that more people saw it.
Though it felt a bit too much on the positive side, not leaving tmuch room for speculation or anticipation of negative things to come as reprocussions of all this, BUT id say its fine since this video was ment to be a responce to people saying they ARE the knight or a villain.
I really hope that this video will end up in the reccomendations of more people than those who already are in the fandom, also if i were to suggest a videi idea it would be speculation about how creating dark worlds and their histories before they are created with a fountain.
good vid
Yeah, I do think I could've placed more emphasis on Kris' actions having possible consequences and that what they did was still reckless activity. I made a mention of it near the end, but it was so brief that I can see why people overlook it and think I am saying the tire slashing is good. When it's not. I just don't think it makes them evil.
You raise a really good case! I completely agree on Kris slashing the tires to keep Susie with them.
Can't wait to see what happens next, both in Inverted Fate and Deltarune.
And whoever is reading this, have a nice day :)
This video had quite a unique perspective! While I wouldn't go as far as to say Kris is just like in the video, it certainly changes my opinion of the character. Still... even if it's ACTUALLY Toby's plan, creating more fountains doesn't quite feel right. When you consider the process would be recreating and then influencing life for your own personal amusement, it all starts to sound like what Flowey (and many players) did to the Underground, only instead of resetting new areas are created to start fresh in.
Noelle and Berdly being at the table with their books certainly implies the fountain was created after, but that's not definitive. Kris and Susie popped up in the spare classroom after the Board Game Fountain was sealed, but they entered the Dark World by walking into the school closet. Considering that the librarby closet has that text does imply something, but the chance of your theory might be close to 60/40.
This can also go either way at this point, but Kris turning on the TV just before opening the fountain likely created a new villian. At first that felt far too dangerous for someone to want to do, but if they really want an adventure.. perhaps they knew they'd 'need' new characters?
Really, I don't think Kris is the only knight, but they aren't wholly good. If you're interested, I've got my own (more poorly made) video covering some counterpoints and other topics, like who opened the other fountains.