BBC Newsnight - Full Programme on Steiner Schools, Racism and Bullying
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- Опубликовано: 21 авг 2015
- This is the full programme, including the debate after the report, shown on BBC Newsnight on the 31st of July 2014.
Our analysis of what was discussed can be found here:
www.steinermentary.com/SM/News...
From the BBC: "They've been popular for decades among the more liberal and bohemian - or some would say wacky - middle classes. Sandra Bullock and Robin van Persie are both former students. But Newsnight has learned that complaints were made to the Department for Education - that in some of these privately funded schools teachers said they thought bullying was part of how kids "worked out their karma" - and in one school, there were problems with racism linked directly to the Steiner philosophy. But since the government received these complaints, it agreed to fund three new Steiner free schools. Chris Cook has the story.”
www.steinermentary.com/SM/News...
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We unfollowed again within 5 seconds.
That commenter didn't bother to check whether we are actually subscribing to their RUclips channel though, and is now trying to post inflammatory comments about that nonexistent "subscription", saying it's an attempt to _"intimidate"_ them, and _"to shut down the questioning and discussion of your post"._
This comes under the heading of trolling. While you are free to post polite, factual comments discussing the subject raised in these videos, anything else will remain in moderation.
Here in Sweden there is one Waldorf school where they allow bullying, My daughter went there for three years. Then she changed to another Waldorf school where bullying is not tolerated and they work against it effectively. There is NO doubt in My mind that SOME Waldorf school have serious issues, depending on who works there. There are some strange elements that teachers either pick up or not.
Steiner himself stressed that the quality of the teacher is everything, and the necessary gifts are not so easily found in modern society.
Steiner also said that children karmically choose their teachers, so by that logic if a child gets a terrible teacher, or one, god forbid, who abuses them, then it's just karma fulfilling itself, just like a van overturned and crushed a child to fulfil his karma by killing him.
Close all schools against which complaints have been made then make enquiries? I am associated with a Steiner school and have no particular philosophy or dogma but can see the wonderful outcomes in the children. That stuff about Steiner's racism and other drivel is not taught. What's the rate of bullying complaints in non-Steiner schools?
I find it very disillusioning to think that the Steiner education taught racism.Not very spiritual.
I am a teacher at the Rudolf Steiner School in Christchurch. I have had no training in Steiner Education, formally or informally prior to teaching here, and I am in my second year of teaching. I can understand why some people are skeptical, however, I can assure you that at this school, the focus is on the well-being of our students, first and foremost. When any issues of bullying come up, we deal with it using PB4L and Non-Violent Communication. Yes, the teachers try to get the students to talk and manage any issues and we facilitate this process with them. In the Upper School (secondary) the processes are the same as any other state school using class withdrawals and formal detentions. Here at the CRSS, music and art is highly valued but Anthroposophy NEVER makes its way into the curriculum. There is a great mix of Steiner Educated teachers and those of us who are not. The Philosophy and the Pedagogy is actually child centred, experiential, and helps many students flourish. ALL schools have bullying, its how they deal with it that makes all the difference. Not all schools can cater for everyone. Some students will do better at an all boys or all girls school, some students at a disciplined private school. Things change and schools can improve and get better or decline and get worse. I can honestly say that this school is trying to constantly improve, as are its teachers and this is currently reflected in its students.
Why call it a Steiner School if the school is not following Steiner's philosophy?
BBC Q at 3:20 "How much Rudolf is there in the Steiner (Waldorf) School?"
According to the lady responding: none. Then why is it called a Steiner School? Very peculiar.
these schools have to follow the principles laid out by Rudolf Steiner otherwise they cannot call themselves Steiner/Waldorf.
the waldorf preschool my son attended had an open anti-intervention policy about kids fighting, and discouraged social guidance when children appeared anxious or at a loss. Though they said they also had an anti bullying policy a friend's daughter was bitten several times by another child without intervention at the point she shared that with me.
"8 out of 25 Steiner Schools had serious cases of bullying by staff"
evidence?
If you wish to find evidence of bullying in Steiner/Waldorf schools, please visit our main website: www.steinermentary.com
paid shills against the schools...included in the attempt to eliminate all true spirituality from society...that is why the BBC have the humanist as their prosecuting opinion...
We can't speak for the BBC or the so-called humanist who took part in that debate, but we are most definitely not "paid shills". We are a family who experienced horrendous abusive unchecked bullying and tried to do something positive about it. If, as our research shows, this spirituality allows the abuse of children in this way, then what kind of spirituality is it?
And one last thing. How come, when a bad story of a Steiner school or a bad memory of being at a Steiner School is shared, it is judged for it's entirety? There are so many experiences we all share in our lives, negative and positive, and usually, in a more nuanced and educated society, we can understand that these negative or positive experiences have been influenced by a single person, organisation or community. How come, when a negative experience of one thing, can make you cast assumptions on another thing. If a child has a bad experience at a State school do we immediately believe that all state schools are bad?
Every school has its own identity with the individuals concerned making it a school. We are talking about head masters, teachers, children, parents,grandparents and the wider community. If one's experiences are negative in a particular setting, they will hopefully be different in another setting. This is the same for Steiner Schools. They are all different. As different as any state school in the Uk who have to abide by the national Curriculum and interpret it in their own personal way. Every Steiner School interprets their curriculum in a slightly different way.
check waldorfwatch.com before going to a waldorf or steiner school or inspired school. in a waldorf nursery school my son was the bully including pushing and teachers totally waved it off.
That's great!
I have no doubt that this issue not only happens in schools but public transport, work, out in the town, etc. Affects every individual and of course women can be bullies, just like men but that is besides the point. Gender, ethnicity, etc has nothing to do with bullying.
I went to a Steiner school up until the age of 10. Anyone who's been to a Steiner school would watch this rubbish and see how ridiculous it is. The teachers act almost like a parent to students, they are fantastic, and you develop a much closer relationship with them then you do in state schools.
What I think often gets overlooked is Steiner students love going to school. I remember my first year in a state school, and i can say, there isn't nearly as much support for students, there was significantly more bullying and racism, and it felt like an alien environment. I disliked going to school after my first few weeks there (and this was the best state school in my area).
This idea people seem to get that Steiner somehow encourages kids to be racist couldn't be further from the truth, its the complete opposite of what any Steiner student would tell you. Steiner encourages children to learn at their own pace and be respectful of those around you.
My regret is i made the personal decisions i did and had to withdraw from Steiner at the end of class 2. I lost all enthusiasm for education, and remember disliking almost every class in secondary school, even though i came out with only A's and A*'s.
That is not at all what it says. Race does not equate to lesser evolution. That is absurd, ignorant and gross misrepresentation of the reality of what was taught by Steiner and this is very poor journalism.
There are very troubling teachings about race in Anthroposophy (the philosophy that underpins Steiner Waldorf education). You can read some of the quotes in this article: steinermentary.com/SM/Race.html
biased
Racism and Bullying ,wondering how stare schools fair regarding this!! Wondering if the history of state schools has LESSONS to be learned on this subject!!! MAYBE diversity training, and language usage will help solve the problem!!! Thinking steiner schools have more of a HOLD of education than its counter parts. Focusing on the person is at the core of Steiner education. BBC News night needs to do Full Programme on the subject in state run schools I think !!! WILL the over managed BBC do it in a unbiased way!!!! Makeup your own mind. History is a good point of reference I think.
Btw,your favourite Prince Charles is big on Steiner and Biodynamic farming,did you know that?And the Queen for example uses Anthroposophical Hauschka cosmetics and medicine...
Humans evolve throuuugh their good and bad deeds, and the ability to love , NOT through skin colour or race. How IGNORANT.
It is incredibly disappointing to see a report, appointed by the BBC, filled with such sarcasm and prejudice from the start. It is a sensational story that has been taken out of context. It's an easy topic to grab hold of, dig your teeth into and spit out! The subject on racism within Steiner Waldorf schools continues to be a contentious issue.
So my suggestion is to initiate a survey by the BBC, ITV or Channel 4, or for that matter any Steiner critic, to conduct an investigative examination on the Steiner Waldorf pupil's view within the Uk and the world. The questions asked should be along the lines of' ' what is your understanding of the word 'racism'; what do you think and feel when you see a 'black' person, what do you think and feel when you see a 'white' person, what do you think or feel when you see a hindu person or a muslim person or anyone who looks different from you with another ethnic heritage?
I can assure you that every well respected broadcasting company will think twice before they decide to broadcast this type of ill-informed, judgemental and satirical nonsense .
What I find fascinating when watching different debates on waldorf schools that ask about the Rudolf Steiner background in regard to racism and the antrophosophical views in today's schools is that no kids/parents of colour who choose/chose this type of school are questioned about this. If there was a problem about racism wouldn't they know best?!
Also, while I find it important to point out that Steiner's views on race are deplorable (though they were probably pretty normal in his time, not excusing them, just putting them in context) and he was not perfect, no paragon of virtue, no prophet or god... sorry, digressing. Anyway, he had many faults, that doesn't mean that everything he said was wrong and should not be applied today. Besides the Waldorf curriculum today is a completly different one as compared to in its beginnings or in Steiner's lifetime. Just because they still carry his name does not mean that these schools are an embodiment of his anthroposophical theories. They are schools, not churches. For Christ's sake!
Oh...I forgot to add in my previous post. Steiner education is about 'spiriyual' matters. 'Spirituality' comes in two forms, broadly speaking...good and bad. Steiner was a dark agent...and so it goes on.
Nobody believes that bullies should be allowed to go unchecked in a Steiner Waldorf school.
Some of Steiner's better ideas allow one to ask the question about whether the experience of being bullied might in some senses make one stronger. I was bullied when my family moved around when I was young and it definitely made me stronger.
My point is that I would be willing to bet any teacher that made comments about how bullying allows students to work out impulses that are part of their destiny (or karma) were making such comments to help students heal and not to excuse, perpetuate, apologize for, or cover up bullying.
Its a bit silly that the man is calling the woman here a liar, if he didn't provide his sources for her to examine BEFORE the interview. Not doing that just turns the whole interview into a farcical setup. The interviewer asks the woman whether she is "bothered" by accusations that he has not made an attempt to demonstrate. Thus she is being asked a "yes" or "no" question that clearly requires a longer answer. Typical dirty media trick.
Steiner's basic idea for education is quite simple; human beings need an education that trains head, heart, and hands. Students need to learn crafts and handwork, gardening and art that trains their body, they need stories and images that bolster their emotions and get them excited about the possibilities of learning, they need academics that hone their minds. Without all three students, burn out on memorizing information and data and you are more likely to create cold, cynical workers who are not interested in lifelong learning. Thus Steiner opposed the idea that the teacher is just passing information into the heads of students. Human beings are more than a head. Instead Steiner had some very good ideas about how to create lifelong learners who are still curious and inquisitive about learning after leaving school.
I would add I don't agree with everything he said and unfortunately I think the danger of Waldorf schools is that some people wish to think he was right about everything, which is always a problem. He actually encouraged people to question him though. Some of his ideas should be discarded. But anyone who has worked in schools, as I have, know most students hate their school and someone who had an idea that has worked to get students to love school without sacrificing rigour should not be easily dismissed.
Dear Jay
We agree with part of what you say: many children hate school, and Steiner Waldorf schools who claim to “teach the whole child” are a strong draw for families who do not wish their kids to be burnt out by the perceived knowledge cramming and training exercise that “regular” schools appear to be turning into. No wonder it’s the fastest growing alternative education in the world.
We also agree that "the man" (Andrew Copson, chief executive of the British Humanist Association) didn’t give "the woman" (Frances Russell) any actual evidence regarding unchecked bullying in Steiner, just anecdotes. This is a problem that we have raised about the BHA’s position on this matter for some time:
www.steinermentary.com/SM/BHA.html.
We have also analysed the Newsnight programme and you can read about it here:www.steinermentary.com/SM/Newsnight.html
However, we have to strongly disagree with the following: _“Nobody believes that bullies should be allowed to go unchecked in a Steiner Waldorf school.”_ and _“I would be willing to bet any teacher that made comments about how bullying allows students to work out impulses that are part of their destiny (or karma) were making such comments to help students heal and not to excuse, perpetuate, apologize for, or cover up bullying.”_
We know from personal experience that a school, one which also happens to be the headquarters of the Steiner
Waldorf Federation for that country, does allow bullying to go unchecked, and will prefer to excuse it, perpetuate it, apologise for it, and cover it up, rather than tackle the problem, to the point that they would rather expel a bullied child than deal with atrocious accounts of bullying. Our experience isn’t anecdotal but factual, since the school admitted it through a Human Rights mediation. You can read about it here:
www.titirangisteinermessenger.com/
Not only did this happen to us, but it’s been happening to families attending that school for decades:
www.titirangisteinermessenger.com/TSM/Testimonials.html
This led us to look more closely at the notion of unchecked bullying and we found that this is a problem with Steiner Waldorf schools worldwide, as these reports illustrate:
1. www.steinermentary.com/SM/UK-AWS.html
2. www.steinermentary.com/SM/Switzerland-RSSA.html
3. www.steinermentary.com/SM/UK-NISS-Threatened.html
4. www.steinermentary.com/SM/UK-SC.html
Looking at what Steiner and his followers said about the subject forms part of these articles:
1. www.steinermentary.com/SM/USA-RebeccaColeman.html
2. www.steinermentary.com/SM/DutyOfCare.html
The reason behind this casual attitude to bullying, aside from the notions of karma, appears to stem from their strong belief in angels, and their plan for the future of mankind:www.steinermentary.com/SM/Archangel.html.
Further, the way these schools treat families who speak out about their experience is deeply concerning:
1. www.steinermentary.com/SM/Luciferocity-Lies.html
2. www.steinermentary.com/SM/Luciferocity-Witch-Hunts.html
The idea of “teaching the whole child” is indeed attractive, but it shouldn’t be at the casual expense of some
children and families. Once one starts accepting that some children will get badly damaged in these schools because others will be having a great time, one starts accepting collateral damage and colluding with a pedagogy’s belief system which has many troubling facets: www.steinermentary.com/SM/Collateral.html
This can, and does, lead to child abuse:
1.www.steinermentary.com/SM/USA-GreenMeadow.html
2. www.steinermentary.com/SM/Canada-TWA.html
As you so rightly said yourself, _”unfortunately I think the danger of Waldorf schools is that some people wish
to think he was right about everything, which is always a problem.”_
Those who control these schools do exactly that.
Mr quarrel rid the fire of negative personal emotions to burn the ideal goals. He will run away as first as he could if someone ask his responsibility.
Note certain who this "Mr quarrel" is.
This program smacks of all the elements of yellow dog journalism. It seems the BBC was hard up for content and the useless is therefore permissible. I have researched Waldorf education and read about 40 books of Steiner's works call Spiritual Science or Anthroposophy, meaning wisdom of humans. I attended a study group on the matter of one of Steiner's eight book on reincarnation and have found nothing but logically organized wisdom based on Steiner's research. I must say that after studying only one book of Steiner's on reincarnation, I realized that no one nor anything I had ever read on the subject in any way took me so deep and to such clarity as his writings. Most individuals are completely confused and that could be the basis of some of the blather the BBC is spouting regarding children and reincarnation. According to Steiner, humans do not begin living their reincarnation until about 12 years old and the process ends in about 70 years. In my life I studied for a masters in engineering, and must say Steiner's work requires much more in the way of intellectual capacity than any of my engineering courses. The rigorousness of his material leaves one with a sense of the profound. If sound bytes define the way you process life Steiner is not your cup of tea and if you peruse Steiner and make judgements you are probably going to be wrong. Do the work and get the knowledge. BBC, you really, really need to start acting as professionals and not yellow dog journalists.
There's a lot missing from the Newsnight programme and we wrote about this here: www.steinermentary.com/SM/Newsnight.html
Rudolf Steiner did write a lot about many things, but it's not only his questionable beliefs that are a problem, but the way his followers have interpreted what he said. This has led to a lot of abuse in many Steiner-Waldorf schools worldwide, which we have recorded on our site. These issues are similar from school to school and everything can be traced back to the pedagogy, from issues with reincarnation, unchecked bullying, racism, fear of technology, odd mysticism, etc: www.steinermentary.com/SM/Welcome.html
I was willing to hear your side but your channel just isn't that informative. Using a 'hachet job' BBC article to explain your issue (whatever it is) in New Zealand just isn't much of a point...
+FlowerPowerNZ Hello and thanks for commenting. Our video channel isn't meant to be seen on its own, but is designed to accompany our main website: www.steinermentary.com. From there you'll see our issue isn't solely with New Zealand, but explores the Steiner Waldorf pedagogy with detailed evidential essays, and reports from numerous countries, including Canada, USA, UK, France, Switzerland, and New Zealand.
The Steiner Waldorf education is a worldwide movement, and our work reflects that.
+FlowerPowerNZ So much aggression. You're obviously highly biased, and how lovely to see you be so glad they expelled our children because of our concern for their safety.
The Steinermentary Project is evidential. All the quotes from Rudolf Steiner are actually his. Quotes from other members of the anthroposophical movement are theirs too. Nothing is made up.
If we knew what we know now a few years ago, you're right, we would never have sent our children to one of these schools. But we believed the lovingly packaged hype. Like so many others did, and still do.
Attacking the messenger (and their children), is common practise.
Doing some actual research prior to gleefully attacking, well, that's quite a rare quality.
Good day.
+Steinermentary Ah yes, me and everyone else is wrong... I have no idea who you are but I have given you the time of day by watching a couple of your videos, had a quick look at your website and have absolutely no question who I believe and that's without even hearing the other side. Your cause is pretty poor to be honest...
+Steinermentary unchecked bullying is steiner is a "thing". Their belief that children deal with conflict based on their karma and teachers shouldn't interfere, is actually part of the pedagogy and explains what happened to our eldest at the Titirangi Steiner School.
It's what got us researching the situation more, and then we found everything else. You appear to know of our story, yet you also appear to be totally unaware of the settlement the school signed with us through the Human Rights Commission, in which they admit that our child's reports of bullying were honest but they didn't do anything about them, even cancelling a meeting with us to discuss how to deal with bullying, preferring to suddenly expel our children instead without notice the very day such meeting was supposed to take place. Classy.
+FlowerPowerNZ Did I say you were wrong? The appeal of Steiner is very strong, especially for parents who have an alternative viewpoint and want something different for their children. Sadly, because of everything that powers the pedagogy, Steiner isn't the solution. You came in already biased, calling the BBC's report a "hatchet job" (I agree that there's a lot missing in that report). Watching 2 videos (which wad the other?) and spending 10 minutes on our site is not nearly enough time to read enough to form a balanced opinion.
But it's always easy to burry your head in the sand and attack those presenting information. Which school do you, or your children, attend?
Steiner 'schools' are a load of bollocks; I know, from personal experience.
hello.
where was your experience, if you don't mind us asking?
York
We have other families who have shared their experience with us, such as:
www.steinermentary.com/SM/Switzerland-ERSL.html
www.steinermentary.com/SM/NZ-MPSS.html
www.steinermentary.com/SM/USA-RebeccaColeman.html
If you would like to share your own story, please let us know.
personally I don't think my kids need to be over exposed to the very "Christian" spiritual angle of "Normal" schools. My daughter goes to a "Non-religious" school, somehow the Christmas play was still very much based on the Nativity ! my daughter can loves stories like Noah's Ark... dont get me wrong, nice story, as a wiccan I dis agree with the heavy christian undertones with it
- I do not agree with racism, I think we are all Human, who cares what colour we are, I do not agree with bulling, and would be the first to file for legal proceedings if my daughter was bullied... but the basic philosophy of a more spiritual school sounds like a great idea. how dare the "Main stream" take issue with me (an many others) wishing to have our kids learn a more spiritual way of life.
Especially when their kids are singing "Seek ye first the kingdom of god" and learning about the good Samaritan. and probably being dragged to church every Sunday. You have YOUR faith, let others have theirs !
In Australia you don't see aboriginal children or it's very very rare. I don't believe its good to bring children up in a bubble or a cult.. Better to be exposed to all people rich and poor.
She is blind and wrong,antrophosophy is belive sistem that this school.a based on.
Ridículo, pensarem desta forma, que mostram um profundo desconhecimento da Pedagogia Waldorf e de Antroposofia. Eu sou professora waldorf e na nossa escola regemos-nos pela formação de SERES livres... onde a raça, credo, religião ou filosofia de vida só os faz seres únicos.... Não faz sentido nehum!
*Google Translation:* "Ridiculous, think in this way, that show a deep ignorance of the Waldorf Pedagogy and Anthroposophy. I am a waldorf teacher and in our school we are governed by the formation of free BEINGS ... where the race, creed, religion or philosophy of life only makes them unique beings .... It does not make any sense!"
There is a lot in Anthroposophy which guides the teachers and influences their teaching and how they interact with the children. We have done a lot of research on the subject after our family's personal experience on the matter. You can browse through our research here: www.steinermentary.com
Close the schools