The Real Bravo Two Zero (1/4)
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- Опубликовано: 20 июл 2011
- The Truth Behind Bravo Two Zero. A couple of years before the 2003 Iraq Invasion, Michael Asher (Ex-Para/23 SAS) went to Iraq to try and uncover the truth behind the infamous Bravo Two Zero mission of the Gulf War.
If you enjoyed this video I recommend buying and reading the book from the same title, which goes into a lot more detail.
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Chris Ryan got into the SAS via 23 Regt TA.
Vince Phillips was initially in the Royal Marines, then the Parachute Regiment, progressing to SAS, and was also seconded into the SBS for a time. And he was a sergeant.
Hardly the no-mark he was made out to be in "The One That Got Away"...
In my battalion recon platoon couldn't wouldn't believe this story was bullshit. 2003
It seems that the other surviving members agree that things were seriously fudged in Andy McNabs book.
"They felt pretty abandoned by their higher-ups, and were essentially left to their own devices to survive, once it all fell apart. " They signed up to become a member of SAS. They knew what they were getting into.
Same as bin-laden was recruited by cia to fight russia in afganistan...
That’s what there paid to do mate
3:18 They didn't carry all the kit in one go. As I understand it the first 4 patrol members walked approx 300-400m forward, each with just their weapon and bergen, then stopped and waited for the other 4 members (who were waiting at the start point with all the water jerries and sandbags) to set off, doing the same. When the second 4 reached the first 4, the first 4 set off back to the start to pick up their sandbags and water, and return. This was then repeated by the second 4.
This process was repeated, leapfrogging forward, but with each man actually covering three times the distance advanced. This would mean walking backwards and forwards a total of 6km to cover the 2km move to location
I myself have done 25-40 mile tabs over the Brecon Beacons carrying up to 55kgs (120lbs) - I was pretty fit back then too (1993-1994), with very powerful legs from 20 years of cycling, hill running and weight training. I could never have carried the weights they did on the patrol...but then I doubt I would have been fit enough to pass selection, even back then...
Its amazing some of the comments on here UK and US slagging each other . I will say this , the UK invented special forces soldiering in WW2 LRDG , SAS , Chindits , Royal Marine Commandos and the SBS . Any modern day special forces unit has the UK pioneers to thank . We are a small country , but punch well above our weight . We stood alone against Germany while the US dallied about entering the war , only after Pearl Harbour did the US enter WW2 and we were very glad they did . UK and US are good allies but we are very different . The US go about their business making a lot of noise while we go about ours quietly .
Fighting two world wars cost us dear . At the start of WW1 we still had an empire and were the worlds first super power , at the end of WW2 we had lost our empire and our super power status . Not only that but had to foot the bill for WW2 which we only recently finished paying and guess who we had to pay ? America did very well out of the two world wars .
Actually they have Alexander the Great to thank. He was the first person to utilize specialists.
Mark Hanley
Wrong.
A) Modern day special forces date back to WW1 with the Italian Arditi ("the Daring Ones") land sneak&surprise forces and Caimani del Piave combat swimmers and commandos. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arditi
B) going back a few years (...) the first example of "special forces" intended as specially chosen and trained military elements that formed units with a special mission were the roman X Legio in 30BC and among the others they killed Jesus Christ, if that's not enough.
C) I know you Brits are butthurt on this but it's plain history, just like the fact that SBS was formed on Churchills order after being impressed by the actions of the first combat frogman unit in the world, the Italian X-MAS.
@@ClaudeMagicbox I was gonna say that the Germans in ww2 created the special forces (brandenburgers). But interesting to see the Arditi unit, although Germans I think they had similar units in ww1 too.
A Roman legion "Killing" jesus doesn't really count as a special "force" especially back then in the context of hundreds of crucifixions taking place, and what the Romans consider as a well trained unit... I don't think they even had a special forces, since any good fighter was just placed within a unit. There was no special tasks that only one unit is capable of doing back then, since it was a group effort.
C) No need to be rude.
@TheAlexkettle I just wondering, do the book tells about carrying water cans by hands or it is this "great traveler" invention. From my experience a trained alpinist can carry a 40-50 kg backpack up into mountains and as water being spent it is easier to walk...
22uksf, thanks for the post mate, I really enjoyed the book too. good lad.
B20 was a joke in the making. They should've never gone in on foot and kept to the tried and tested methods that were used in WW2 and had pinkies. Andy Mcnab let down his patrol big time on this one.
IIRC they only had Dinkies available (Defender 90 chassis), as opposed to the longer wheelbase Pinkies. You cannot take what isn't there
I've recently read the book by Andy McNab and I don't recall him ever saying Vince Phillips was twitchy. Tell me the page or paragraph number of the chapter of where it says that.
Oh man, this is gold. It all makes sense now.
This mission was conducted in my town at Alanbar province the shepherd is dead now , his old rifle left behind his son still a live i saw him today
He served in 2 Para and the SPG in Northern Ireland. But yes, he was in the SAS reserves.
Very valid point you have. I'd imagine in would be very difficult with the confusion and gunfire as well as the withdraw procedure to count when all's you should be worried about is if you have your mate covered and he's got you covered. I have zero in military experience, so I can only go off what I read so facts might evade me in this conversation. Interesting topic none the less. :)
According to Ryan, shortly before they were deployed, they made the decision to go on foot rather than bring the Pinky's because they believed that it would be near impossible to conceal the Pinky's out in the desert, particularly around where they were being deployed (which would probably have been true given the terrain around the initial LUP.)
Michael Asher wrote a book of the same name about the experience. He goes into a lot of detail about his decisions and the reasons behind them, while referencing both McNab's account and, to a lesser degree, 'The One that Got Away.' It's a terrific read.
I've tried finding interviews with Chris Ryan and Andy Mcnab where they discuss the real bravo two zero and presumably critique it. I cant find anything at all. Any one know of any interviews??
Does anyone know of any interviews with Mcnab or Ryan discussing this documentary???
if possible do you have the full movie Bravo two zero..tank alote
airplane alot
Would be interesting to hear what andy mcnab and chris ryan has to say about this. Like an indepth conversation with them about it.
Does anyone know of any interviews where they talk about this documentary? was it the correct LUP? did they recognise abbas or adil etc etc?
unforgotten legends !!!
If you read Bob Sherherd's 'The Circuit' he writes a small bit about this incident which is very interesting regarding the choice of going in on foot.
He seems to have an agenda and lacks objectivity. Lots of "if this is true" etc. This would have been improved if he had gone in with an open mind but found inconsistencies rather than "they're a bunch of liars". What made me smile is his attitude of he couldn't carry the water cans so no one else could.
20 km's or 2?
Actually, there is a long tradition of multiplying military figures by a factor of 10.
Ancient writers routinely did so when giving accounts of the size of armies and battle casualties...
Vince is an SAS Hero. I can see why other members of the team might have thought the shepherd saw them in the LUP... especially if he followed the tracks and walked by closely. They should of asked him about the heli LZ also to see if the stories match with the bulldozer owner!
That's true, it's very much so possible for smaller forces to do that due to the heavy modern firepower available in machine guns etc. And I agree - it is a very huge feat. I just really doubt the numbers killed. How could they even get the opportunity to count or get an accurate estimate in an Escape & Evasion situation?
I think Chris's claim is the right one - 12 infantry and maybe an Armoured Car gone down in the initial contact, and then later 2 police cars using a LAW, an M203 and an M16.
@jinkjack what did ryan say about vince?
@NeoTech08 Wasn't always the way, some of the older books told it like it was in the Falklands for example. The MOD fought the Soldier Five book tooth and nail in court, they've kind of had enough of SAS men selling their stories, and this book didn't exactly sing their praises. I believe SAS soldiers now sign a secrecy contract that prevents them from writing any book without express permission, which kinda sucks for us...
No, documentaries don't necessarily go by facts - they show you what they want you to know. They omit a lot of information to make it appear as they want it to appear. ALL documentaries do this, as they are there to state their point of view and make you agree with it, not to tell a story.
I've read Andy's version of 'bravo two zero' and it's amazing but there are many over the top pieces in it. I've also read Michael Ashers autobiography 'shoot to kill' and I can safely say he's a hardened veteran, surviving Northern Ireland and being an ex SAS.Just trust him
XxKillealonarexX read mark coburns soldier 5, it’s the kiwi guy on the patrols version of the story. It’s different to bravo 2 zero and the one that got away
Asher is full of shit so is mcnab and Ryan. Read soldier 5
@@johnmoriarty7331 have you read it??
@@cheekboy7247 yes
@@cheekboy7247 have you?
Different time a lot has changed since the event went down and you can’t take into account the witness statements it’s all been changed through the years .
I was talking about England specifically. England has clocked up roughly 947 years of military history. Probably more than that if you go further back then that. Wales and Scotland probably have more. So if you add all them together.... still more than America. Considering America only became a country with a democracy in 1776. Thanks for correcting my basic estimate as America only has 237 years of combat history.
ANYONE, and i do mean anyone that goes for the territorial sas has to pass selection. I know a couple of guys that did it and they are just as fit as there counterparts. Of course they don't have operational experience as the full timers do. Calling them crap is obviously said by a man who needs to pick up a book!. They share the same training facilities as the regular sas and they have the same tutors. THATS A FACT!.RESPECT to the regiment! . ANDY MCSACAB IS A GREAT STORY TELLER.IT SELLS BOOKS
How did the shepherd boy see the aircraft tracks? I thought it had dropped the team 20 clicks away? Moreover, helicopters do not usually leave tracks. Three, probably indistinguishable, indentations maybe or four in the case of a Chinook, but tracks, I think not.
Never let the truth get in the way of a good yarn.
@davidbmason No experience, but in the books the plan was to dig a LUP (lying-up position) as a covert observation point on the main supply route (MSR). They were essentially going to sit in a camoflaged hole and report on the SS-1 Scud launchers moving up and down the MSR trying to evade satellite/air detection. So in effect this was not a mobile mission at all, they would sit there, drink water, eat and report on enemy movement covertly to get airstrikes in, and then get out.
Respect from Australia
@shades2 Cheers and thanks for your reply. I guess if they were going to lay up and remain in an OP for a period of time, jerry cans make sense. Thanks once again.
thank you :)
You do realse 3 soldiers died, attempting SAS reserve selection, a couple of weeks ago? and Bear grylls is ex SAS reserve
stupid deaths. the whole idea of the SAS is to be able to cope in the fucking heat and then fight. Not die from it in a stupid training exercise. Who is running those exercises?
pete radcliffe the RSM of 22 at the time caustically commented that it was a shame they were captured because at the rate they claimed they were killing iraqis the war would've been over in 2 weeks.
Proud to be close to Britian
/Sweden
200 pounds of gear is a simple carry for an SAS troop soldier. Also when you come under contact you take of your gear and lay it out in front of you and put yourself into a prone position to give yourself a better firing position. The APCs the Iraqi Army where using couldn't aim at soldiers laying in a prone position. They also did the aggressive tactic which means they ran towards the enemy and fought them head on. It's not bullshit it's courage.
You can hide from soldiers who move all over the place but you can't hide from locals- they have a lot of time on their hands and can spot a blade of grass out of place- it didn't need to be one of them to give their location away.
The engagement stop when the Australians were reinforced. The fact remains in a modern setting a very well trained smaller force can indeed inflict heavy casualties to enemy forces. What Bravo Two Zero did to evade the Iraqi's was undoubtedly a huge feat All put down to their training. I know for a fact I would last two nights out in the cold desert, let alone evade an army on home soil. The mission how ever was a failure due to pour intel and leadership The successful missions we won't hear of.
@fwdbb100 Check out a book. Soldier Five - "The Real Truth About the Bravo Two Zero Mission". It's pretty critical about the command structure, apparently, and gives another perspective on what happened. They felt pretty abandoned by their higher-ups, and were essentially left to their own devices to survive, once it all fell apart. The truth is also, that they were searched for, but in the wrong areas. Apparently the massive contacts were somewhat overstated in the books...
cool vid
"Soldier five" is the most honest of the bravo two zero books.
good docu +1
Do you remember the day you didn't see Andy McNabs SAS squad hiding in the dessert about 10 years ago?
Yes! Yes I do!
-.-
He said he saw tracks. Not that he saw the soldiers. He must have guessed they were around
@@edwardelric717
Héy fellow internet user how have you been doing in these challenging and strenuous times
Love the way he questions everything from the patrol but takes everything the Iraqis say as gospel, no questions asked.
Andy Mcnab claims there were 2 contacts - the initial contact where they abandoned their post and the border checkpoint. At a border checkpoint, there would be no more than a squad sized contact and it was brief as they all scattered - and they would have been police, not military. The only way they would have encountered 250 AND armour would have been at the initial contact. And there was no way they would have even seen that - and be able to count the damage dealt as they had to bug out fast.
Another point...the water carriers he used are not the same as those used by the patrol. The patrol Jerries were the standard tall/slim ones common in the British Army, whereas the ones he used are shorter and wider. A seemingly small point, but one which will position the centre of gravity for each carrier further out from the body, and higher up, and with a tiny handle that would cut into your hand like an overloaded shopping bag, as opposed to the much thicker and rounder profiled handles on a water Jerry can. I spent 14 years in the British Army, so I do know my way round the fuel and water Jerry cans and Norwegian Army flasks...
I find some of the claims in BTZ and TOTGA to be difficult to believe too, but if you're going to try to discredit them at least be accurate in your representation
@NeoTech08 You're right though, a lot of the recent books have been sexed up majorly, as hearing about people sitting around doing nothing, or engaging in relatively light contacts is not exactly exciting reading. I take nothing away though from the SAS men who put their necks on the line, and got captured/tortured etc. Their courage can't be questioned, as going behind enemy lines like that, is incredibly risky. They are just human at the end of the day, and can make mistakes.
It was chris ryan that said that about Vince in his book the one that got away. hope that helps.
McNabb could have requested that they are unprepared to fight. Stand down. Maybe check your frequencies and radios. Hero complex is glaring.
Still, a great story from very brave men.
@ 13:06 what do you think they were really doing in that field???
@JerkCruel
The book does state that they carried the 25kg water cans
It was not 250 in one firefight you know that right? They where in numerous firefights before being captured.
I wonder are there any good books on the SAS, not just this particular event.
Andy McNabb...I read the book a long time ago
Most likely because there weren't enough British troops to fight there. The Green Beret is the headgear of US Special Forces which weren't created until 1956. The Rangers wore the black beret, and then the tan beret, but never a green beret.
The 160th SOAR and 75th Ranger Regiment inspired the formation of their sister units in the British military.
Like I said, the US & Brits have been working hand in hand for decades. It's no wonder that we influence each other regularly.
WTF?????? Why weren't there any clips of the SAS carrying those huge water canisters in both movies (Bravo Two Zero) and (The One That Got Away)??????
255! good lads
Asher spent less than a year in the SAS in the late 70s and did no active deployments. If the only thing McNab and Ryan can agree on is that he's a flog then it speaks volumes. Great, go be Michael of Arabia, sad that he had to lean back on not much to get a TV show and twist the tale to suit a paycheque.
There were only 2 firefights they took part in. The initial contact, and the border checkpoint. And it's a big open desert where there's nothing to find or worth defending - so nobody is going to be stationed there, especially 250 Iraqis and APC's. I could believe Chris's claim - 12 infantry and 1 armoured car in the initial contact, and later 2 police cars with his LAW and 203, but not McNab's claim of 250 Iraqis and multiple APC's.
But the Australians also had access to heavy artillery support the entire time which absolutely decimated the VC and were getting resupplied around the clock by choppers, and then were reinforced by M113s and other companies. However, Bravo Two Zero did not have any support available - just their M16s, Minimis and LAWs. They most likely would have run out of ammo before the end of the contact if anything, and would have had to bug out at some point.
I'd sooner believe Chris's claim personally.
This documentary raises a few questions...maybe people would care to comment..
The Bravo 2 Zero film where Andy is played by Sean Bean, many of us have seen, which dramatised Andy's account of the SAS mission goes into very graphic and horrific detail about their capture, and subsequent torture by the Iraqi military and secret police. During these torture episodes a dentist is used. Interestingly the Iraqi carrying out the torture reveals he worked at the famous Guys Hospital in UK for 9 years. Surely this dentist could be identified easily to add some credibility to at least part of Andy's book?
How close to the book is the film? I have not read the book. Although this documentary's findings and the Iraqi eye witness accounts seem entirely plausible. Whilst many SAS followers may find this disappointing and damaging to the SAS reputation and tradition of silence if Andy did exaggerate their mission so heavily...I think we have to give him some slack. He is only human and a little humanity is called for.
Whilst I don't think it's sensible or condone distorting important military battle history it seems to me he was writing a book for a certain type of audience. And playing on the myth and aura of awesomeness that has been built up around the secretive SAS regiment. Yes they are good, but come on, 8 guys are unlikely to walk 100km in a desert survive a night in the wrong gear and then wipe out hundred's of Iraqi military and tanks etc etc. Andy no doubt had movie rights and book sales at the back of his mind as the real story isn't so exciting (although still a remarkable human feat of endurance).
After going what Andy went through in what was at this documentary reveals, a completely absurd and hopelessly impossible mission behind enemy lines with no air support or backup in extreme terrain conditions they were ill-quipped and ill-advised for, the tragic and pointless loss of his friends and colleagues lives, plus his own horrific torture ordeal (if that is assumed to be true which I can well believe under the Saddam regime) then maybe he felt vilified in sensationalizing the story to at least get something out of that. I imagine it ended his career as an SAS soldier that experience.
Some SAS soldiers from what I understand can find it hard to re-adjust back into normal civilian life and do regular jobs. This is why many become private mercenaries or bodyguards. But what if you are psychologically scarred for life and damaged by that experience.
Regarding the brutality and prolonged level of torture, if true there's various ways looking at this; firstly retaliation for therm killing *some* Iraqi people or the sanctions and hardships imposed by the West, and secondly and far more likely I think, the Iraqi fear of an Israeli retaliation and offensive for the scud attacks, and also hope paradoxically due to an even larger NATO/US offensive looming at that time, and the Iraqi regime need for information to gain any edge.
Is water really carried like that? Isn't there a weight dispersal water bladder in their backpacks. It seems odd that they would carry jerry cans on a mobile mission. Can anyone with experience comment on this?
@Pearly403 oh, that made me laugh!!
Thank you!!
I lived on a farm close to the new base..an old airfield in credden hill, I was in Letton.. Lower Kinley Farm.. the old base was near the old south bridge.. looked like a prison.. The people in the village bar told me..(Letton) If they say they are SAS .. they are not!!
@26wordy The Iraqi casualty figures came from CIA radio intercepts. The RSM was like most RSM's in that in their mind, no one is more important than him...except the CO. Dare say that in the middle of a fire fight, the patrol wouldn't have bothered to count kills, just fired at what was in front of them at the time.
more than anyone else thats for sure.
were you there?
i take that back nice documentary
Yes
The sheppeard looks like that Eglasias bloke :)
just to make a point having looked at your comments, i think the british forces do not have the same amount of financial backing and therefore they have to rely more on honing their skills rather than use better technology...
For a man who is said to be ex-SAS, this presenter gets rather star struck and excited about soldiers doing a job of work, even if they are SAS and their missions would of course be arduous to say the least.
@cTH37c Chris ryan book is called the one that got away.
I'd agree with that, US has more money which means more advanced systems but UK has better training and skills in the area.
I didn't know Chris Ryan was a pseudonym. Is it?
250 isn't that impossible. The Iraqis weren't exactly the most adept at warfare, and there have been other occurrences where other western troops have been proven to defeat such odds.
I find it ironic that the only peple who seem to respect eachother's militaries are, the soldiers. As a Canadian sapper I would trust a US or UK soldier to watch my back any day. We are all brothers when it comes down to being on the 2 way range.
if they'd have chilled out a bit and taken vehicles it would've been cool.
Well it's not THAT vivid...I understand what you're saying but some people just have good memories. I can remember vacations I took when i was 2-3 years old...also, they seem to be a very secluded tribe so when they say a helicopter landed nearby that's usually something you tend to remember..one my earliest memory was a boat trip i took mostly because it was the first time i've ever been on a boat or seen one for that matter..the human memory is very tricky and complex.
Even their military jargon sounds so british and proper. a "lying up place" haha.
Is this is iraqi desert
Ashers book sshoot to kill is well worth a read.
Bravokilledzero
The book is not called the eye of the storm it is called bravo two zero I am reading it right now
no precise but around 15 degrees or lower but as i said i'm not entirely sure
0.03 of a kilometre is 30 metres....admittedly he then says .2 & then .1 but I guess it's safe to assume he meant .02 & .01
I think I know why they got spotted: They were carrying bright yellow water canisters with even brighter red lids :-)
Ive been in the army, if i wrote a book about what actually happened it would include a whole load of walking places and not doing alot. How exciting. Then a bit of me running round like a nutter being shot at generally getting stuck in... those 3 pages would be awesome!
@ukguy i know i was on about McNab's i have got both
Also, Dick Meadows commanded an SAS unit and he was an American officer.
Hmmm, they seem remarkably well informed about details of the patrol, knowing enough information to straightaway chat to Asher about it. The lad saying “i didn’t see them” when asked if he’d seen “British soldiers” ten years ago. Well, if you didn’t see them then how do you know they were there?
I’m assuming Bravo Two Zero books never had an Iraqi print run, though guess Iraq’s intelligence types would have browsed through a copy obtained from somewhere. Can’t see the upper echelons of Baathist Iraq popping over to an isolated bedouin house to describe passages to them without reason to (“Hi guys, just in the area, thought I’d stop by to tell you about this book. No I’m not going to shoot you”). Now maybe if they’d received an outline travel request from a British journalist team...
Why did they refuse vehicles and why didn't they equip for the cold?
Because all of this never happened.
being based off of something does not make the original superior. ESPECIALLY when those things are constantly evolving.