How Effective Was The OV-10 Bronco As A Forward Spotter In The Vietnam War? | DCS
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- Опубликовано: 2 июн 2024
- Today we look at the use of the OV-10 Bronco in the Forward Air Control (FAC) role in the Vietnam War. How effective was it when calling in fire from F-4 Phantoms, F-5 Tigers and A-4 Skyhawks?
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0:00 Scenario Details
3:32 Attempt Without Bronco FAC (take off)
11:09 Attempt Without Bronco FAC (combat)
21:29 Attempt With Bronco FAC
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I remember a training exercise in which my side was supported by Cobra attack helicopters and the other side by OV-10s. I watched a Cobra making repeated "gun runs" on an OV-10 right over our position, and the OV-10 pilot was so agile that the Cobra couldn't nail him. Of the two aircraft, the fixed-wing was actually more maneuverable than the helicopter.
We were trying to hide from the OV-10 and he kept finding us and calling in fire missions on us - we had a lieutenant attached to our company as a FAC for the Cobras, and the dumbass kept standing up to get a better view when the aircraft were around. As soon as he stood up, we were spotted. He always seemed to do that just as we finished digging in - we were about ready to brain him with an E-tool.
Shit's funny man
My Grandfather was a bronco pilot in Vietnam, he was never shot down but shot at plenty. He never talked about the war much, but from some old footage of his and some commentary it seemed the main way he would mark the target would be to attack with guns and drop smokes for the bombers.
The "hard wing F4" (C, D, AND E without wing slats) has to be flown without using ailerons at more than 15 units AOA. At higher AOA, you control turn rate and AOA with pitch keeping the stick centered. You use rudders to roll the aircraft. If you use any aileron at high AOA, you get adverse yaw and will stall that wing in a heartbeat. Probably what you did to stall and spin it. In the aircraft you could tell by feel and start of buffet that you needed to use rudder. As a cheat, I always kept the AOA tone volume turned up. The tone doesn't come on until 15 units.
I had about 2,000 hours in the hard wing, including about 280 combat in Viet Nam.
You are absolutely correct his AOA was 30 and you know he was moving the stick and not the rudder to role out.
Great to hear from guys who actually flew the airplane. Amazing how much you can remember 50+ years later!
The really interesting thing was the tone of pilots with the bronco assisting them. You could hear how relaxed they were, just chilling whilst painting by numbers. Took almost all the pressure off them and they could focus fully. That psychological advantage being free to concentrate is huge.
The F-4 was originally designed as an all-weather interceptor to protect the US carrier task force against Russian strategic bombers. The missiles were initially designed to attack a large, unmaneuverable bomber, not small, turning fighters. So if you are attacking bombers from 20 miles away, you don't technically need a gun. It was designed that way unfortunately.
Yeah, they thought aerial combat would only require missiles.... and then Vietnam happened.
Yep, it was an interceptor and it's only purpose was to get off the ship, go balls to the wall fast in a straight line towards the bombers, then fire off some big ol long range air to air missiles and then go home. It wasn't until later that they realized they needed some multirole jets so they shoehorned the F4 into that role.
Yes. A lot of interceptors were designed that way.
Avro Canada designed and built the CF-100 and prototype the CF-105 (Arrow) that were meant to fire unguided rockets (CF-100) and missiles (CF-105)
Vietnam taught us that not only guns were still needed, but we had to retrain pilots how to use them.
I was there, and I flew the OV-10 after the war. This scenario is much easier than what over the trail was actually like. After 68 the NVA moved much of their AA systems down on the trail. The trail for the most part was covered by triple canopy jungle. This was open semi arid Saipan. Flayling around like you were doing, and you would have been shot out of the sky. The NVA were tough SOBs and good at war. But thanks for the great demo.
Thanks!
US Forrest service still uses the OV-10 as an air attack C&C aircraft. If you ever watch fire tankers doing air drops, you will almost always see a Bronco out front laying a smoke stream where the drop is to occur. Also, I’ve never heard the term flying brick, I’ve always heard it be called the lead sled.
The OV-10 Bronco, a rugged, maneuverable, twin-turboprop, multi-mission aircraft, served with the U.S. Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force. One Navy squadron, the "Black Ponies" of Light Attack Squadron (VAL) 4, flew them with much success in the latter stages of the Vietnam War.
Flying Black Ponies is a pretty good book.
And you can give them a Jet Backpack.
If the world of FAC interests you, I can recommend two books, one is "A Lonely Kind of War" by Marshall Harrison, an OV-10 pilot in Vietnam, who also got up to some cross-border naughtiness in Cambodia. His descriptions of controlling multiple flights of fast movers is something else, and I cannot emphasise the word "control" enough. Stacking the flights at intervals of 1000 feet he would immediately demand weapons load out and fuel state once the jets arrived on station. Lower fuel states got used first before they bugged out for home. One priority once he had marked the target was getting confirmation that the fast mover had visual on the target and, more importantly, visual on the OV-10. He usually dictated what direction the attack would come in from.
The second is The Ravens, by Christopher Robins, about a group of FACs working the Ho Chi Min trail in Laos. They flew in civvies as technically, they weren't there. Lots of CIA involvement. These guys were flying the O1 Bird Dog. Brilliant book.
Seconding "A Lonely Kind of War"...such a good book, I'll have to dig it out again!
9:15 It was military strategists, planners, and believe it or not, a lot of experienced fighter pilots who felt that a gun was obsolete, during the years leading up to Vietnam. No less than Robin Olds himself argued against putting a cannon into the F-4, as he felt that it would entice guys into trying to dogfight with the F-4, rather than play to its strengths of speed, climb, sensors and long-range AAM's. He felt the weight and space would require compromises that would be more useful elsewhere.
Those same strategists also thought that wars would be won through strategic bombing alone.
@@gryph01 In their defence, by that point in history those planners all assumed that any peer nation conflict would be a nuclear one. Strategic bombers (and the interceptors designed to stop them) probably would have decided such a conflict. Thankfully for all of us they were wrong about that too.
The Bronco also had a weird little cargo compartment behind the cockpit that could (reportedly) fit several paratroopers. They sat tightly packed in a bobsled configuration and all slid out of the back when the pilot opened the doors and did a sharp climb. I'd imagine more commonly it was filled with the pilot's gear.
When people talk about hunter / killer airborne teams in Vietnam , they talk about the little bird and Cobra . The MUCH more effective and deadly team was the OV 10 and the A1E . This combo had a much longer TOT and five times the firepower.
I doubt you could see as much in a Bronco as you could in an OH-6.
All I could think of this whole video was Firedad being Johnny on the spot as soon as Cap smoked and the saying, "Where there's smoke, there's Fire."
Nice
Another fun mission - would have liked to have tried the Bronco in part 2 but my power grid saw to that 😥thanks again for having me, the Phantom is a very tricky airplane to fly - gotta keep that speed up constantly!
Unlucky Tog see you soon xx
I like how all the enemy soldiers fall down like a cross between a cardboard cutout, plastic Army men, and bowling pins.
I just finished watching your General Hunt where you talked about an upcoming OV10 mission and oh, look where we are now xD
lol yup!
What a time to be alive!
Hey CA-Phantom Phlyboy. Colonel Warbeck says to not get anywhere close to 200 knots in any configuration, even coming over the top clean, in a loop... real delicate flying there. They called it the "Double Ugly" and "The Pig". However, he did say the faster you go the better it gets. The J79s (turbojets) like a little bit of air through them hence, the reason to keep it fast.
Roger, almost impossible to use for spotting...
That was COOL, as always.
Loved it
The biggest problem with the missiles in Vietnam was the ROE required them to visually ID the targets (because AWACS based IFF wasn't a thing), eliminating any advantage from the BVR AIM-7 missiles.
Exactly. Fat electrician did a great video on that. Specifically operation Bolo. We had army, marine, air force and navy aircraft in the skies at the same time and the war was already not popular with the American people, any friendly fire incidents would have been a PR nightmare.
My grandpa flew as an FAC and used to tell stories about not being very good at his job. He said he'd rely on getting shot at most of the time.
Remember during Vietnam there was Tankers available basically 24/7, air bases all over the country as well as in Cambodia and Laos , and navy assets from Yankee and Dixie Station. Take off, top off, hang out until needed strike where the infantry asks for help or pre designated targets. Something like a suspected truck park in an empty part of jungle.
Simba hell of a landing. OV 10 could carry a pretty good load of ordnance too. Ugly sexy plane
Holy hell!! I figured it would be better with the spotters, but hot damn!! Brilliant proof of concept. They would certainly be scattering or hunkering down fast, but those OV-10's could still get the friendlies close enough to paste even a moving target with a barrage of rockets!! Damn fine flying as always Grim Reapers, even in the fast birds only, you showed up to fight in the first round!!
'A Lonely Kind of War' is an amazing book on how they used this awesome aircraft. The pilots were amazing!!
I remember when the Bronco was a front line aircraft. It was simple, easy to work on and maintain, and very effective. In today's overly technological world things like that don't get much respect. Well I can tell you this and that is that the older I get the more respect and value I have for things that are simple and the old ways of doing things.
There is a really good book about FACs in Vietnam called " Sock it to Em Baby" By Gary Cooper (not the actor) who was a RAAF FAC on exchange with the USAF in Vietnam. Also the USAF used the F100 as a "fast" FAC in mission over North Vietnam.
Love the RNZAF A4 Skyhawk. Well done lads!
Well spotted...
Oh lovely. The NZ Skyhawk skins. Thanks Strider and Cannonball 👍 I thought I was the only one who used those skins!
(they were our only jet fighter after the Vampire)
Cap, just a sort of flight of fancy and just for giggles idea, send in the mighty Douglas Skyraider, if available, after those VC.
P-47 might do if not available
Finally some bronco action! seriously one of my favorite planes of all time.
Well, the really nice thing here is the new explosion animation. The shockwave, vegetation moving, the fireball...all much improved. ED hit that out of the park. Just makes it that much more cool.
Wake up in Vietnam and find GR has VN mission to enjoy over breakfast, good start to the day.
Thanks for the mission, boys! Really well done. Hope your feeling better Cap!
Hi Cap and Boys. Thank you all for the missions you run, this was brilliant.
From what I have heard was that it was the Air Force Weapons School that made the decision to nix the cannon on the F4, the Navy and Marine Corps still wanted it.
I think you are correct, I remember hearing something about that.
It was something to do with encouraging pilots to go into a dogfight because they had a gun, so they took the gun away to stop them from doing it 🤔
They were relying on missile technology that was not reliable and unfortunately we know the rest of that story.
@@davedevonlad7402 it’s probably good they got their bloody nose out of the way and learned the lesson from it. Some of the pilots I worked with said they Air Force had the same talk about the gun on the F-22
Really great video idea. Very entertaining. Nice one, GR ❤
An interesting fact is the last kill by a US Army pilot was during the Vietnam War. It was a an ov-1 Mohawk flying as a FAC that encountered a MiG-17
Thank you for counting enemy losses by rifles and not a price on lives. War is hell that never quite fades a away, as anyone knows who has experienced it, no matter what side you're on
Its a computer game, its nothing like actual war, the same as films and TV
Good call on using well-disciplined VC. You'll have to do this with Fly since he just mentioned this mission.
Made all them aircraft when I was a kid. But ignorant of the what was going on at the time. Never seen the bronco in action or fiim. So this is the 1st ive seen what they can do. Good stuff. 👽👍
I knew even before i started watching this that it was gonne be brilliant. The Vietnam missions always are.
The Ho Chi Minh trail was for moving supplies from North Vietnam to South Vietnam. It was mostly trucks and pack bicycles, and the North Vietnamese Army and the NLF-SV ("VC") would tie the overheat trees together to hide the trail, which meandered through parts of North Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, South Vietnam. The F-102 Delta Daggar was used at night to hunt for campfires along the trail; the infrared-seeking Falcon missiles would follow the interceptors' IRST tracking system and slam into the heat source. By the early 1970s, US Navy A-6 Intruders were bombing "suspected truck parks" based on photo reconnaissance that was often hours old.
Good vid, fellas. Thanks, Cap.
Great video and great spotting job Cap! Which seeing the enemy is the key feature of the F-35 why it's so special in the modern day beyond being an affordable 5th gen multirole.
One of my customers flew the O-2 during the 1980's El Salvador conflict, serving as a ground-target spotter. The O-2 was the military Cessna 'Skymaster'.
It's a honor to see tge Brazilian liverie on the F-5! Even tho it was a mistake, thank you!
lol cool!
I am really not surprised that the Phantoms struggled so much. So I don't know if you guys modeled it or not, the F-4C Phantom II is an incredibly difficult airplane to fly. While you are pulling G's, you cannot use the stick/ ailerons to roll. You must use the rudder or you will depart flight. The phantom was never designed for low and slow flight. It was meant for fast, long range engagements using radar and missiles to engage communist bombers at range. With that being said, the phantom still conducted over 800 000 ground attack/bombing runs.
During the first Gulf War I was stationed aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt. We left our S3 Viking ASW aircraft behind and took on a squadron of Marine OV-10 Bronco's for FACs. The A/C not being a carrier based we launched them off the pointy end of the carrier ala Billy Mitchell B-25s when we neared Sigonella NAS.
Hi Cap. Hope your stomach gets better soon.
Also thanks for this video as I know what aircraft to use in that scenario I'm writing up. I'm going to make a few things different because it'll be easier for you when sorting out the map. 😀👍 you're going to love it.
Just finished putting together a button box for the weapon station for this mod. Hands down my favorite plane in DCS.
13:00 the ol starfighter deathblossom
F-5 is a great light multi-role fighter, where as the A-4 is one of the finest naval attack aircraft ever built... That's why they are both still being flown by every country that still has them, not to mention both aircraft have referb/upgrade programs going to this day...
Had Broncos in the early/mid 80s in west Germany at Sembach AB, also F4Cs at Bergstom AFB in 81
The A-10 is a Bronco with a 30mm 7 barrelled rotary cannon and can carry 16,000 lbs of weapons of all kinds
love those landings you guys . . .
Gotta give a shout out to the movie BAT*21
Beautifully shot FAC based Vietnam war movie with Danny Glover and Gene Hackman, portraying a modified version of a real-life rescue of Col. Iceal Hambleton.
Lots of O-2 (Cessna Skymaster) footage shot at the treetops, no models or CGI...... a real aviation enthusiast's movie.
I read the book and watched the movie. I loved it
Very cool video the North American / Rockwell OV-10 Bronco was ideal to mark targets such as light transports and infantry units of the Vietcong.
Great stuff, thanks for sharing.
Great video. Please do more FAC related videos!!!
Not firing at aircraft is correct doctrine for ground troops. You’re taught to only shoot at aircraft actually attacking you, because the ones not attacking either haven’t seen you or have something better to do…. and there is no point in getting their attention. As for the reasons for your relative success in the first mission, a lot has to do with target density. In reality you would be patrolling hundreds of miles of trail not just six.
Have always loved the Bronco.
Trust the force Luke !
Love that the bronco is in DCS ❤
I read that F4s would sometimes opt for 3 of the SUU gun pods for strafing missions. The early suu was powered by a Ram air turbine, "theoretically" limiting its speed to about 350kts.
I love seeing the RNZAF livery on the A-4K! Great video beautiful humans!
Well spotted...
Always had a soft spot for the ov1 mohawk myself but the bronco was pretty cool too. Ps the mohawk had the armys only air to kill in Vietnam. 🤘
You also had FAST FAC which were indeed F4. They worked as FACs with smoke rockets etc. But were you known fast.
That stall spin WAS recoverable btw... You need more training.
Get well soon Cap.
In Bat-21 Glover was flying an O-2 Skymaster. The O-1 was the Bird Dog.
thx
Since you're doing Vietnam War stuff right now, here's a stupid complete fantasy scenario you could try: Can the modern Vietnamese Armed Forces conduct a successful strike on the Vietnam War-era carriers stationed at Yankee Station?
You'll have the ground forces lobbing some badly aimed Scuds, Su-27s providing air cover, and Su-30s launching Kh-31s.
I can't wait for the interesting missions from the Reapers whenever we get a Southeast Asia map "Coming soon"™
At least from what ive heard, which may not be accurate, vietnamese aa gunners had extremely hard times shooting down ov-10s and a-37s because they were so slow and vietnamese aa gunners were all trained to shoot down fast moving aircraft, so they always over-led the slow planes. Side note: Id love to see you guys do a mission with the a-37, Its such a forgotten hero of the war
We need a custom helo for Cap, with the cockpit in the rotor hub. He seems to like spinning.
Agreed
The German Airforce built and tested OV10s wirh J85 engines in "Backpacks" to boost their speed for short periods of time to make them more survivable and give them faster response times. They were later used as target tugs
lovin the NZ A4
Nice RNZAF A4 livery ❤ my favourite iteration of the A4
Cap flat spins while firing wildly for maximum effectiveness. This wasn't an accident, the "Cap "Bollocks!" Maneuver" is a documented combat tactic they teach. It's true!
I think the rockets may have span me faster :(
Awesome teamwork. Try again with some random AAA
The terrain in the sim was much more open than Vietnam or Laos jungle but weighing the other side, you would have had an observer/co-pilot with you to spot and the strike aircraft would have had napalm.. Great video to watch. Maybe another go in a few months with Hercs as the attack planes?
If you want a great book about the OV-10 in 'Nam, I'd recommend " A Lonely Kind of War " by Marshall Harrison. It really gives a feel for how down and dirty the FAC mission was. In fact I'd say it's one of the better aviation books I've ever read. Always been fascinated by the teamwork involved and have read several books about Covey, Sidewinder and Nail callsigns directing traffic over the big green. If you want to read about more modern FAC stuff, then try " A-10's over Kosovo " by Chris Haave & Phil Haun. The two books might allow a comparison of the differences and similarities of two conflicts 30 yrs apart - technology, ROE's, frustration with higher rank officers, etc.
Awww, c'mon. The Phantom is not evil at all, it talks to you, and this DCS one was being noisy and eloquent in its warnings. If you pull too hard it buffets, then it buffets harder, then it starts rattling, and that's exactly what these were doing when mishandled. Every Phantom pilot will tell you never to use aileron when it's buffeting: that's when you use rudder, if you must roll. But mainly, when you are over the AoA limit just unload and it will fly away quite happily.
The Phantom was absolutely screaming at CAP, like an angry spouse
The f4 handicaps was entirely political, it's really interesting information to look up
Great to see Cannonball & TOG? using an A4C/E in NZRAF colour scheme, and he seemed to be able to hit most of the soldiers in the first test, though it was fun to see his landing after the second test.
17:30 the A-1 Sky raider should be coming soon
12:58 Listen kids, this next attack manouvre is called "The Spinning Wheel of Death". Very difficult, incredibly dangerous....only real pros can master it
OV-10 is my favourite aircraft of the Era.
9:13 It was what is referred to as the fighter mafia back then.
The guys who were responsible for the advanced F series fighters.
Nice kiwi livery on the A4s! I saw a many of them doing low passes over my house back in the day.
Well spotted...
Another strategy a spotter chopper. would fly 50-100 ft. from canopy. Spot the enemy then send in the gunships or maybe jet power, allegedly.
Another well done mission! Thank you! Two questions: (1) Did Phantoms REALLY spin an crash like that; I never heard that before. (2) I agree with CAP that the best think the infantry could do was not to shoot but to hide... but did not the North Vietnamese have DshK AA machine guns... probably worthless against jets but perhaps effective against the observation planes?
Thanks again!
If you abuse a Phantom despite all the warnings it gives you, then like any swept-wing jet of its generation it will abuse you back - usually by departing from controlled flight, at which point you might well need 30,000 feet below you to recover
Okay, you redeemed yourself!
GR!
8:09 Doing VSN a bit dirty with that one as the VSN F4C(Stanalone) is as high deff as any of the $60+ modules in DCS currently...But your right... the heatblur F4E is very next gen deff for DCS from what I've seen and maybe the highest def module for DCS or really any sim/game outside of maybe VTOL VR systems wise.
As a Kiwi I deeply appreciate the RNZAF livery on the A4.
This is why they used agent orange and daisy cutters.
I gotta admit, the Bronco is a sexy airframe...
15:10 Just remember that close only counts with horseshoes, hand grenades and Zuni rockets. 😜
I've heard the Phantom called "Flying Pollution"
I watched this multiple times so…. This is the birthplace of CAS. You must have an AFAC and FAC. You trying to fly fighters as though they are ground attack fighters. Aircraft loadouts should be tailored to the strike package. F-5s we’re great for cheap fighter support but not ground attack. F-4s should be used for heavy ordnance - attacking vehicles, bridges, etc. I say a lot of heavy turning by aircraft that wouldn’t have been used. OV-10s for the AFAC, fighters use 9-line procedures. AFAC calls the mission and strike package responds with mission and BDA to AFAC, then next mission. Strike packages would be staggered over the target area by timing their arrival so as to make better use of TOT related to fuel usage.