Yeah it certainly can be dangerous specially with some other heavier examples. And we are definitely not playing “tournament level” intense. But still there is a lot of options to play with and it’s perfectly fine to do it like that.
A lot of Longsword “techniques” don’t work too well actually. Liechtenauer’s five strikes have very limited usability. So it’s mostly simple cuts and thrusts or attempted feints at the proper distance
Truthfully this is not a very good montante simulator. It's far too short and light. It's better as a spadone. At like, 4.15 lbs it's a good bit lighter than almost all historical examples of the weapon.
I haven’t really looked into the two-handed sword variants. But also am definitely on the smaller side compared to the people that would have used such swords historically - usually specifically pointed out to be very big and strong men. For me it’s a two-handed sword and very different in handling and what I can do with it compared to my usual longswords.
I think it was Marozzo that wrote: In case you find yourself fighting another Montante. Fight as if you have a longsword. The wide strikes you find in the sources of Montante are there against other weapons. They aren't effective against another greatsword.
I get to see the new SIGI Montante, and in a match against Martin Fabian to boot. 👍 You already answered that you still think they would be dangerous as a tournament weapon (something I wondered; they looked pretty safe in your match, but I guess restraint needs to be exercised). Somebody already mentioned that they look more like spadone in size (something I though and I agree with, even if they both are in the realm of two-hand swords; but depending on context, it's splitting hairs). You already addressed the degree to which you just use federschwert techniques applied to a larger weapon (something I observed). At this point, I think that SIGI Light and SIGI Montante can offer more variety to people that want to explore what can be done with longswords. I do wonder if longsword, as a tournament category, could be split into a smaller longsword and more grappling (so more armour half-sword combat), and a longer longsword (spadone) without allowing for grappling. But that's something that won't take place soon. At most, this is the start of being able to have that conversation. I also think that fragmenting weapon categories in the context of tournaments might not be the best, but that's a different discussion.
I am not saying it cannot be used in a tournament environment- just that we are not in this video. However certain restraint must be applied in my very limited experience, but same can be said about using some heavier and stiffer Longswords as well. As far as separating in categories according to weapons we will have two categories in our autumn competition - Longsword standard and Longsword light. Same rules but lighter weapon for people that want to be hit less. And armoured fighting does exist, it’s just way too few people doing it for cost purposes.
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing I'm happy to hear that you are already considering all of this for the tournaments you guys organise. I do have a lingering thought. Since you probably talked to others, and you know better, what's your view on standardising the "professional" tournament scene? Isn't there a fear of splitting the base if too many weapon categories are allowed?
I don't think "professional" tournament scene even exists beyond that some places get really good at doing their events. Most recent tournaments I've seen usually have their spots filled in regardless of the amount of categories presented. For example we now aim to increase our overall Longsword open spots with 10 people (20% increase compared to last year) but to have them split in the two categories.
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing "I don't think professional tournament scene even exists..." I am not going to disagree with you.😄But I'm nowhere close to organise any type of event... so, it wouldn't be right for me to say that. 😅
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing Btw, speaking of organising things, I saw your involvement outside Bulgaria and the country ball logo (the only way to represent nations in the Balkan area and not get into an argument😂😇). I'm happy that you (and colleagues) are bringing some HEMA love to the surroundings countries and strengthen HEMA in that part of Europe. 👍
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing yes, of cause. You´re right. I just meant that it´s no where near the size of the historical great swords. You wouldn´t be able to fight with them like that, I think. But never mind, you probably know more about it than me. I´m just an armchair expert :)
@@bastianbarx1509 It is at the size of historical great swords - they varied a lot. People like to fixate on the big ones in museums, but if you actually check around, you will find there are tons of swords which are bigger than longswords, but not as big as the heaviest two-handers.
@@bastianbarx1509 To add to that, yes, this is absolutely not a representative of the 2-2,5 kg and the 115-130 blade length class. But you can argue that sources don't fixate on just the larger examples.
I'm by no means the expert on montante usage, but these look lighter in motion than typical montantes, no? SIGI's stats list it at 1750-1950g, or 3.85-4.3 lbs. My Regenyei montante comes to 2350g/5.1lb, for comparison. And the PoB looks to be closer than other two-handers. SIGI lists 7-8cm, which is only 1cm further out than my SIGI King. Obviously I can't pass real judgement without trying it myself, but these seem to behave like slightly unwieldly longswords/feders rather than montante. While I understand the intent was to create a sparring-safe greatsword, I wonder if these changes make it too different from historical examples. The higher weight and PoB difference isn't negligible; it emphasizes and validates different body mechanics and techniques. I imagine adding another pound of steel to these blades would alter the resulting fencing even further. I can't remember the author, but I believe one of the Iberian manuals actually describes what to do in a montante vs. montante scenario (as rare as that might be). IIRC, they recommended largely favoring thrusts over cuts, since the action of cutting presented far too large of an opening in comparison. I would have loved to see whether this principle actually held water. Perhaps it would be better to market this as a "spadone", as that name is more associated with the lighter greatswords suited for Marozzo or similar Italian work.
Thank you for your comment. So first to say I am no expert in two handed swords as well and this was the first day I tried them out in anything outside waving them around solo. The two handed sword category is quite large and for my personal use I would say it's anything I cannot comfortably let go and use one handed unlike most longswords. For my size that's most things above 140 cm and weight at more than 1700 gr. I absolutely cannot use a sword of 2,3-2,5 kg. weight with any reasonable speed or control. As far as PoB - most sparring safe swords of any kind have lower PoB than sharp equivalents. However some can still move quite closely to sharp ones because of the different mass distribution across the blade. But this is surely a. sacrifice that is made with all swords so we can actually play with them. As far as using thrusts over cuts if you look closely at the video you will see that almost all successful hits were either from a thrust or started as a first intention thrust. Most wide cuts were much easier stopped and punished, specially starting with such. And for marketing I honestly can't say which are the most accurate terms, specially having in mind the options to add rings and lugs to the blade. They've said: "The Montante, also known as Spadone or Zweihänder, is the largest of the late medieval/renaissance swords of Europe"
Wow good!!!!
Thanks
Finally some montante sparring! I always hear "it s too dangerous" , " it can t be done" . Well here it is, and with steel!
Yeah it certainly can be dangerous specially with some other heavier examples. And we are definitely not playing “tournament level” intense. But still there is a lot of options to play with and it’s perfectly fine to do it like that.
They took the montante, but use the federschwert technique
A lot of Longsword “techniques” don’t work too well actually. Liechtenauer’s five strikes have very limited usability. So it’s mostly simple cuts and thrusts or attempted feints at the proper distance
Turns out a two handed sword is a two handed sword
Truthfully this is not a very good montante simulator. It's far too short and light. It's better as a spadone. At like, 4.15 lbs it's a good bit lighter than almost all historical examples of the weapon.
I haven’t really looked into the two-handed sword variants. But also am definitely on the smaller side compared to the people that would have used such swords historically - usually specifically pointed out to be very big and strong men.
For me it’s a two-handed sword and very different in handling and what I can do with it compared to my usual longswords.
I think it was Marozzo that wrote: In case you find yourself fighting another Montante. Fight as if you have a longsword.
The wide strikes you find in the sources of Montante are there against other weapons. They aren't effective against another greatsword.
I get to see the new SIGI Montante, and in a match against Martin Fabian to boot. 👍
You already answered that you still think they would be dangerous as a tournament weapon (something I wondered; they looked pretty safe in your match, but I guess restraint needs to be exercised).
Somebody already mentioned that they look more like spadone in size (something I though and I agree with, even if they both are in the realm of two-hand swords; but depending on context, it's splitting hairs).
You already addressed the degree to which you just use federschwert techniques applied to a larger weapon (something I observed).
At this point, I think that SIGI Light and SIGI Montante can offer more variety to people that want to explore what can be done with longswords. I do wonder if longsword, as a tournament category, could be split into a smaller longsword and more grappling (so more armour half-sword combat), and a longer longsword (spadone) without allowing for grappling. But that's something that won't take place soon. At most, this is the start of being able to have that conversation. I also think that fragmenting weapon categories in the context of tournaments might not be the best, but that's a different discussion.
I am not saying it cannot be used in a tournament environment- just that we are not in this video. However certain restraint must be applied in my very limited experience, but same can be said about using some heavier and stiffer Longswords as well.
As far as separating in categories according to weapons we will have two categories in our autumn competition - Longsword standard and Longsword light. Same rules but lighter weapon for people that want to be hit less.
And armoured fighting does exist, it’s just way too few people doing it for cost purposes.
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing I'm happy to hear that you are already considering all of this for the tournaments you guys organise.
I do have a lingering thought. Since you probably talked to others, and you know better, what's your view on standardising the "professional" tournament scene? Isn't there a fear of splitting the base if too many weapon categories are allowed?
I don't think "professional" tournament scene even exists beyond that some places get really good at doing their events. Most recent tournaments I've seen usually have their spots filled in regardless of the amount of categories presented.
For example we now aim to increase our overall Longsword open spots with 10 people (20% increase compared to last year) but to have them split in the two categories.
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing "I don't think professional tournament scene even exists..." I am not going to disagree with you.😄But I'm nowhere close to organise any type of event... so, it wouldn't be right for me to say that. 😅
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing Btw, speaking of organising things, I saw your involvement outside Bulgaria and the country ball logo (the only way to represent nations in the Balkan area and not get into an argument😂😇). I'm happy that you (and colleagues) are bringing some HEMA love to the surroundings countries and strengthen HEMA in that part of Europe. 👍
It´s more like an oversized longsword, than a montante/zweihænder/great sword. Still, it´s a beautiful sword. Thanks for sharing the video.
Swords are coming in a spectre and for me it certainly feels like a dedicated two handed sword.
@@AngelChernaevHistoricalFencing yes, of cause. You´re right. I just meant that it´s no where near the size of the historical great swords. You wouldn´t be able to fight with them like that, I think. But never mind, you probably know more about it than me. I´m just an armchair expert :)
@@bastianbarx1509 It is at the size of historical great swords - they varied a lot. People like to fixate on the big ones in museums, but if you actually check around, you will find there are tons of swords which are bigger than longswords, but not as big as the heaviest two-handers.
@@bastianbarx1509 To add to that, yes, this is absolutely not a representative of the 2-2,5 kg and the 115-130 blade length class. But you can argue that sources don't fixate on just the larger examples.
I'm by no means the expert on montante usage, but these look lighter in motion than typical montantes, no?
SIGI's stats list it at 1750-1950g, or 3.85-4.3 lbs. My Regenyei montante comes to 2350g/5.1lb, for comparison.
And the PoB looks to be closer than other two-handers. SIGI lists 7-8cm, which is only 1cm further out than my SIGI King.
Obviously I can't pass real judgement without trying it myself, but these seem to behave like slightly unwieldly longswords/feders rather than montante.
While I understand the intent was to create a sparring-safe greatsword, I wonder if these changes make it too different from historical examples. The higher weight and PoB difference isn't negligible; it emphasizes and validates different body mechanics and techniques. I imagine adding another pound of steel to these blades would alter the resulting fencing even further.
I can't remember the author, but I believe one of the Iberian manuals actually describes what to do in a montante vs. montante scenario (as rare as that might be). IIRC, they recommended largely favoring thrusts over cuts, since the action of cutting presented far too large of an opening in comparison. I would have loved to see whether this principle actually held water.
Perhaps it would be better to market this as a "spadone", as that name is more associated with the lighter greatswords suited for Marozzo or similar Italian work.
Thank you for your comment.
So first to say I am no expert in two handed swords as well and this was the first day I tried them out in anything outside waving them around solo.
The two handed sword category is quite large and for my personal use I would say it's anything I cannot comfortably let go and use one handed unlike most longswords. For my size that's most things above 140 cm and weight at more than 1700 gr. I absolutely cannot use a sword of 2,3-2,5 kg. weight with any reasonable speed or control.
As far as PoB - most sparring safe swords of any kind have lower PoB than sharp equivalents. However some can still move quite closely to sharp ones because of the different mass distribution across the blade. But this is surely a. sacrifice that is made with all swords so we can actually play with them.
As far as using thrusts over cuts if you look closely at the video you will see that almost all successful hits were either from a thrust or started as a first intention thrust. Most wide cuts were much easier stopped and punished, specially starting with such.
And for marketing I honestly can't say which are the most accurate terms, specially having in mind the options to add rings and lugs to the blade. They've said: "The Montante, also known as Spadone or Zweihänder, is the largest of the late medieval/renaissance swords of Europe"