Basically, Luigi loss of wavedash is the reason why he's terrible in Brawl. He has hard time getting in while characters can keep walling him in. Not to mention that majority of the cast can edgeguard him easily.
To this day, I cannot understand why Nintendo worked so hard to cut the cool movement and defensive options that were present in 64 and melee. It’s not like your average 14 year old was gonna grind out tech skill for little Timmy’s party.
@Vee_9001 Yeah, honestly I have no idea why they toned the movement down THAT much. If you wanted to play the game casually, you STILL COULD. It's not like nobody ever played Melee in 2001 casually. Brawl wouldn't have been a WORSE game for casuals if it still had the physics of Melee, 90% of the casual players who played Brawl wouldn't have had a different experience at all if it reused Melee's physics. All that needed to be done was a nerf of the top tiers and a buff of the low tiers. I still enjoyed Brawl, but there was literally no reason to do all of that, and I think if the Wii supported updates for games they definitely would have backtracked on some of the decisions made, especially tripping.
@@milesfernandowell most of the movement tech was a result of rushed development and bugs (particularly with Melee) so when making a new game I don’t think they wanted to release an objectively broken game again.
@dey6942 Nonsense. L-canceling was in Smash 64, with the official name being "smooth landing". Smooth landing even came back in Smash 4 as a custom item. As for wavedashing, the devs knew you could wavedash. Sakurai himself said as much. The key thing here is, they didn't know how USEFUL it was. Had they just kept the directional air dodge, no casual player would be affected. It would literally be a win-win for all parties, because there's no way for the casual player to lose in this scenario. They're not attached to higher level mechanics. People say "Competitive Melee is built on bugs" but it makes no sense. The bugs are what HINDER competitive Melee, like phantom hits, wobbling, Game and Watch's lack of L-cancels, Yoshi not being able to jump out of shield, port priority, etc. Literally doesn't make any sense to say that it's all due to bugs.
@dey6942 as a side note, Project M is literally just Brawl but with some Melee mechanics ontop of the Brawl stuff. That isn't buggy at all, if Brawl literally just played like Project M, then both casual and competitive fans would have been happy.
@@slimballs9650 gave luigi a nearly uncontestable recovery option which made him go insanely far with a good mash. It gave Luigi one of the best edgeguarding tools in the entire game and It could still kill altough a bit later
Yes it can be, because there's a difference between being the worst character in a Smash game and being the worst version of a character in Smash. Like, hypothetically, even if Luigi was the worst character in Smash 64, not being the worst character in Brawl doesn't mean his Brawl iteration isn't worse. Brawl really is just that bad.
Not everyone is bad in Brawl, the game just has a very polarized metagame, where the good characters are really damn good, and everyone else falls between okay to awful.
In brawl, Luigi would die from a singular grab at zero against one specific character? Imagine DYING AT ZERO TO A GRAB? that would be awful. I can see why he was completely unplayable when he could get 0-Deathed off of a singular grab. That would be annoying. It’s a good thing they removed that interaction for ultimate😂
To be fair, the to death isn’t a infinite and I think on later patches they made it so it was harder to execute due to DI mixes up your opponent can do. It’s also just not possible on some characters
Luigi got his revenge lmao, I think his is fair since his combos lose a lot of effectiveness after that low percent window, they're pretty input-heavy and precise as well and require a bit of improvisation. It seems like the Dedede combo was an infinite at any percent that looks extremely low-input. Fair trade.
I hate the cyclone recovery nerf because at least it was a consistent way to get back to the stage. I've learned how truly unreliable Green Missile is as a recovery move: Aim too high, and you might wind up stuck in the side of the stage, aim too low and you might misfire and fly directly underneath the stage. No character in the game should EVER have to rely on RNG for their recovery. It makes Luigi very unfun to play as.
@@obviouslyanonymous Mashing barely impacts the height, if you use Dr. Mario's Tornado and Luigi's Cyclone back to back you can tell that Luigi's goes nowhere.
I would've really liked it if you went through all his iterations, not just the worst and the best, but order them from worst to best, it'd be really interesting :D
brawls top, high and mid tier are much smaller than the other games. the top 10 are so much better than the rest in brawl that the matchups are almost unwinnable
I noticed that as well! I think it’s because brawl is so unbalanced, the best characters are just so much better than the rest. Basically 3/4 of the cast absolutely suck by comparison and have unwinnable matchups 😭
The power difference between the best characters and everyone else in Brawl is so abysmal most characters that were in the game either had their best or worst iteration in that game. Usually being the worst, since there's only like 3 or 4 viable characters in Brawl.
To this day nothing has caused me more pain than Cyclone going from a funni spin that lets you do funni things to a frame 1 invincible combo breaker and still managing to be objectively worse Could never get over losing my offstage presence, even with all of the buffs he got
I would trad Luigi's 0-death for his Smash 4 Cyclone. I would actually trade anything (except for his combo tools) by having Luigi have better recovery.
In smash ultimate when I go to fight Galeem and Darkon, I use Weegee first to get through the hard part of parkour, his high jump and the ability to spam cyclone during the minion fights so I have all 3 of my mains for the final battle makes him the best lead up
no not really, and if you specifically compare luigi across smash games(even if you exclude brawl) his s64 variant still wasnt that bad. he had alright recovery, and great edge guarding, and like everyone else in s64 a good combo game
I like how the two Kirby newcomers just got into brawl and immediately made a large chunk of the cast unviable. Dedede’s existence prevents good characters like Wolf from being high tier due to the matchup. And characters are only high and top tier if they make Meta Knight almost put in effort. 😂
Smash Ultimate Luigi's Down special is weird to me, when i use it, it doesnt even look like he got any air, even in the air, all it did was make him float, Dr Mario's down special is better!
its always crazy to me when people point to melee as the unbalanced broken installment of the bunch. Yeah Fox is strong but he is by no means as met centralizing as Meta Knight. And yeah kirby sucks a lot but when you look at brawl, half of the cast are melee kirby-level compared to Meta Knight. Brawl isn't even fun if you're playing casually
So... we're not gonna talk abt Ultimate's 0-death combos he always had? Mind you, these combos were as easy to pull of as grabbing someone with a tether grab and they only nerfed ONE of his routes, but not every route. GGs liberals
You definitely didn't play pre patch Luigi he was definitely at least top 10 in smash 4 because of is grab and is tornado (and also he could also do the zero to death combo in that game before he was nerf buddy)
Basically, Luigi loss of wavedash is the reason why he's terrible in Brawl. He has hard time getting in while characters can keep walling him in. Not to mention that majority of the cast can edgeguard him easily.
To this day, I cannot understand why Nintendo worked so hard to cut the cool movement and defensive options that were present in 64 and melee. It’s not like your average 14 year old was gonna grind out tech skill for little Timmy’s party.
@Vee_9001 Yeah, honestly I have no idea why they toned the movement down THAT much.
If you wanted to play the game casually, you STILL COULD. It's not like nobody ever played Melee in 2001 casually. Brawl wouldn't have been a WORSE game for casuals if it still had the physics of Melee, 90% of the casual players who played Brawl wouldn't have had a different experience at all if it reused Melee's physics.
All that needed to be done was a nerf of the top tiers and a buff of the low tiers.
I still enjoyed Brawl, but there was literally no reason to do all of that, and I think if the Wii supported updates for games they definitely would have backtracked on some of the decisions made, especially tripping.
@@milesfernandowell most of the movement tech was a result of rushed development and bugs (particularly with Melee) so when making a new game I don’t think they wanted to release an objectively broken game again.
@dey6942 Nonsense. L-canceling was in Smash 64, with the official name being "smooth landing". Smooth landing even came back in Smash 4 as a custom item. As for wavedashing, the devs knew you could wavedash. Sakurai himself said as much. The key thing here is, they didn't know how USEFUL it was.
Had they just kept the directional air dodge, no casual player would be affected. It would literally be a win-win for all parties, because there's no way for the casual player to lose in this scenario. They're not attached to higher level mechanics.
People say "Competitive Melee is built on bugs" but it makes no sense. The bugs are what HINDER competitive Melee, like phantom hits, wobbling, Game and Watch's lack of L-cancels, Yoshi not being able to jump out of shield, port priority, etc.
Literally doesn't make any sense to say that it's all due to bugs.
@dey6942 as a side note, Project M is literally just Brawl but with some Melee mechanics ontop of the Brawl stuff. That isn't buggy at all, if Brawl literally just played like Project M, then both casual and competitive fans would have been happy.
I miss smash 4 cyclone, it was always fun tryna get the gimp and when u mixed it with a jump it went insanely high, which was just a nice feeling
I miss transforming into an actual helicopter 😔
Smash Ultimate Cyclone is a frame-1 invincible combo breaker though.
@@slimballs9650 which shows how crazy it is that sm4sh cyclone is just objectively better
@@questioneverything680
How does Ultimate's Cyclone being a frame-1 invincible combo breaker make Sm4sh Cyclone better?
@@slimballs9650 gave luigi a nearly uncontestable recovery option which made him go insanely far with a good mash. It gave Luigi one of the best edgeguarding tools in the entire game and It could still kill altough a bit later
Luigi getting a true 0-death combo in Ultimate feels like revenge against Dedede experience in Brawl.
Concon and Elegant, man. Those were some mashers.
P+ Luigi: 😎🛝
He’s D tier
@@nuts5388still a more balanced game tho
Lol it's always brawl that's the worst. Can it even be that way if everyone is bad.
not everyone...
Well its the few characters at the top that have insane MUs against others to the point of near-invalidation
Yes it can be, because there's a difference between being the worst character in a Smash game and being the worst version of a character in Smash. Like, hypothetically, even if Luigi was the worst character in Smash 64, not being the worst character in Brawl doesn't mean his Brawl iteration isn't worse.
Brawl really is just that bad.
Not everyone is bad in Brawl, the game just has a very polarized metagame, where the good characters are really damn good, and everyone else falls between okay to awful.
i respectfully disagree with the brawl slander.
Will forever miss Luigi's toilet bowl, one of the most iconic parts of Sm4sh.
In brawl, Luigi would die from a singular grab at zero against one specific character? Imagine DYING AT ZERO TO A GRAB? that would be awful. I can see why he was completely unplayable when he could get 0-Deathed off of a singular grab. That would be annoying. It’s a good thing they removed that interaction for ultimate😂
😂
To be fair, the to death isn’t a infinite and I think on later patches they made it so it was harder to execute due to DI mixes up your opponent can do. It’s also just not possible on some characters
Luigi got his revenge lmao, I think his is fair since his combos lose a lot of effectiveness after that low percent window, they're pretty input-heavy and precise as well and require a bit of improvisation. It seems like the Dedede combo was an infinite at any percent that looks extremely low-input. Fair trade.
Kiiinda wish Luigi could still mash for his cyclone, it feels weird without it.
I hate the cyclone recovery nerf because at least it was a consistent way to get back to the stage. I've learned how truly unreliable Green Missile is as a recovery move: Aim too high, and you might wind up stuck in the side of the stage, aim too low and you might misfire and fly directly underneath the stage. No character in the game should EVER have to rely on RNG for their recovery. It makes Luigi very unfun to play as.
I far as I know he can, it's just a much weaker impact on the height now
@@obviouslyanonymous Mashing barely impacts the height, if you use Dr. Mario's Tornado and Luigi's Cyclone back to back you can tell that Luigi's goes nowhere.
@prestige8477 that's what I said. It has much weaker impact, but still a little
@@obviouslyanonymous It makes him hover rather than gain height which, when combined with the endlag, makes the move useless for recovery.
I would've really liked it if you went through all his iterations, not just the worst and the best, but order them from worst to best, it'd be really interesting :D
brawl always has the worst for some reason
brawls top, high and mid tier are much smaller than the other games. the top 10 are so much better than the rest in brawl that the matchups are almost unwinnable
Because Brawl sucks
I noticed that as well! I think it’s because brawl is so unbalanced, the best characters are just so much better than the rest. Basically 3/4 of the cast absolutely suck by comparison and have unwinnable matchups 😭
The power difference between the best characters and everyone else in Brawl is so abysmal most characters that were in the game either had their best or worst iteration in that game. Usually being the worst, since there's only like 3 or 4 viable characters in Brawl.
I remember, elegant, making the Luigi look crazy
Idk why they took away the cyclone recovery option. It was fun to use in brawl
To this day nothing has caused me more pain than Cyclone going from a funni spin that lets you do funni things to a frame 1 invincible combo breaker and still managing to be objectively worse
Could never get over losing my offstage presence, even with all of the buffs he got
Smash 4 Luigi with the Poltergust grab woulda gotten so much hate for being so good
OG Luigi up B was a killer on smash 64
I would trad Luigi's 0-death for his Smash 4 Cyclone. I would actually trade anything (except for his combo tools) by having Luigi have better recovery.
i feel like luigi is the worst in n64, no?
Nah he's pretty balanced in that game, he's just a worse version of Mario but he has combos that he can end with his up b.
i feel like even the worst character in 64 is more viable than some mid tiers in brawl
@@Holy-Tiramisu yeah this makes a lot more sense honestly
@SAX0N yeah but 64 is pretty balanced. a low tier in 64 is like a mid tier in brawl.
He's just a worse mario
Better yet luigi in ultimate patch 1.0.0
“A nearly unwinnable matchup against dedede due to his infinite” can be said about the majority of characters in brawl 😭
...no it can't DDD only had that on like 3 characters
Imagine pre 1.1.1 smash 4 luigi, pre patch ultimate tether grab, and melee wavedash, holy crap he'd be broken
I hate how they just removed both Luigi and Dr. Mario’s ability to recover with cyclone in Ultimate.
Cyclone nerf is tragic
In smash ultimate when I go to fight Galeem and Darkon, I use Weegee first to get through the hard part of parkour, his high jump and the ability to spam cyclone during the minion fights so I have all 3 of my mains for the final battle makes him the best lead up
Ultimate giving him an infinite combo starting with a down throw which is good against big bodies is the ultimate revenge against dedede.
I've been enjoying trying out luigi in ultimate recently. It can be very oppressive at times.
Not to mention that the Smash 4 sour spot on up-B was even better at stealing recoveries
I see you using footage from Luigi the best, mad respect
Wasn't he also the worst character in 64?
Well according to official tier lists luigi currently is the worst
But brawl low tiers are so ass it's not even the same realm
no not really, and if you specifically compare luigi across smash games(even if you exclude brawl) his s64 variant still wasnt that bad. he had alright recovery, and great edge guarding, and like everyone else in s64 a good combo game
Miss Smash 4 Luigi so much. He's so campy and one-dimensional in Ultimate.
i. fucking. love. weeg.
I miss gimping with that old cyclone, so much fun. Every stock was a mario party mini game lol.
Smash 64 Luigi move set ❤✊️💥
LUIGI THE ULTIMATE
I love the potion of the games so i learned about the axe of regrowth as soon as i learned i could farm with dryad and researched how to get more.
That’s funny cos I really had fun with playing Luigi in brawl
melee luigi was fire tho
Yeah. And now its “Cyclone? What Cyclone?”
Still waiting for the best and worst iterations of Larold Lurr
Dedede really be gate keeping a LOT of characters in brawl lol
Do Ridley next, then inkling
Yes he was a beast in four I miss 4
If i ever see a smash 4 luigi main in the next 20 years. On sight dude, in the streets.....
as a fox main hopefully you'll understand my pain
I like how the two Kirby newcomers just got into brawl and immediately made a large chunk of the cast unviable. Dedede’s existence prevents good characters like Wolf from being high tier due to the matchup. And characters are only high and top tier if they make Meta Knight almost put in effort. 😂
Luigi is my bro in smash but still can't fight two people at the same time
Oooh can you do Olimar&Pikmin?
Yeah. Id take the better cyclone over the longer grab any day
Man I miss smash 4 combos
Man smash 4 made mario and luigi were crazy in that game. Wished they still had the crazy stuff in ultimate but they are still good in ultimate
I mained Luigi back in smash 4
Yeqh coney knows about the matchup on brawl
RIP Negroshi
Brawl moment
Seeing ppl say 64 is the worst cause he’s arguably the worst character is so fucking funny
What about is utterly insane final smash in brawl
no, worst is in 64, where he is widely considered to be the worst
damn a Larry lurr info short?? call me entertained
Its so weird to me thag they nerfed luigi but never nerved lilmac in smash 4
Dedede .. viable!! #Buffdedede
True but smash 4 vs n64 luigi are debatable since when Isai plays him its ggs
Hi Larry Lurr
Best Luigi in my opinion was in melee I was unstoppable with him on that game
Am I tripping or was the last video and old alpharad video
I kinda wish they kept the custom moves on characters in ultimate. I know they were janky in smash 4, but they were really cool
They should NOT have touched cyclone
Smash Ultimate Luigi's Down special is weird to me, when i use it, it doesnt even look like he got any air, even in the air, all it did was make him float, Dr Mario's down special is better!
No, Coney already told us the best Luigi is Kazuya
Bruh, no honorable mention for his combos in ultimate?
I already knew luigi was op in smash 4 because of alpharads luigi the best
64 Luigi wasn’t too shanby
The best luigi is melee tbh
Well, Ultimate Luigi probably has the best grab in the game, and if he doesnt then he is only beaten by Pac-Man
IMO, best version doesn’t necessarily equate to strongest
Now it’s just plunger spam because who needs skill?
How is it not 64 when it comes to the worse
Negramo, a term unknown to mankind lemme put y’all brothas on for the one time okay. Hear me out could be the last move I make for real
Smash 4 nickname was trash 4 for a reason most of the characters were bonkers and over powered
What about 64, where he’s the worst character in that game?
Id argue melee luigi is better cause of movement
I can’t find anything about this online but I know it’s true for a fact: He is not slippery AT ALL in ultimate. It’s horrible.
its always crazy to me when people point to melee as the unbalanced broken installment of the bunch. Yeah Fox is strong but he is by no means as met centralizing as Meta Knight. And yeah kirby sucks a lot but when you look at brawl, half of the cast are melee kirby-level compared to Meta Knight. Brawl isn't even fun if you're playing casually
What about Smash 64 Luigi?
oh my god, I hated smash 4 luigi so much
Which one is smash 4?
Wrong, Melee is the strongest and best Luigi
Why do you mention updates? Surely you'd go off whatever version is being used competitively
Luigi is actually the worst character in 64
Melee Luigi is 10000x better
Na ultimate
Any game without wavedashing is bad
arguably Luigi is worse in 64, wheres hes a contender for bottom 1but 64 is oddly balanced.
Man i miss smash 4 luigi. Now down B is just a lame ass combo breaker that makes everyone hate you and his combo game is not nearly as cool
he is the worst character in 64 there's no way brawl is worse
So... we're not gonna talk abt Ultimate's 0-death combos he always had? Mind you, these combos were as easy to pull of as grabbing someone with a tether grab and they only nerfed ONE of his routes, but not every route. GGs liberals
smash 4 luigi also has 0-death combos out of down throw, even after the nerfs
You definitely didn't play pre patch Luigi he was definitely at least top 10 in smash 4 because of is grab and is tornado (and also he could also do the zero to death combo in that game before he was nerf buddy)
@@foxshinehiyaa3933 bro you literally said the exact same shit I did, why you dissing me?
wasn't luigi the worst character in 64?
Yeah but he is at least playable and pretty viable in tournament but in brawl that wasn't the case
Isn’t 64 Luigi the worst character in the game??
Luigi is worse in smash 64
yeah absolutely not. smash 64 is way worse than brawl
The king dedede “infinite” is DI’ble
yo larry you dont sound happy in this video. everything okay?
Yeah I noticed that too even with the happy music in the background 😮