Lingering hitboxes and big AoE hitboxes in general have a tendency to not be well represented visually. Even in Elden Ring the Magma Wyrm's slam attack has a way bigger hitbox than the animation would make you believe so it's not only an issue with older games. And it's not necesearly an issue with the hitbox itself but rather the lack of any visual effect that would indicate it's size. With lingering hitboxes like this the visuall effect dissapears too fast and makes it look like it's safe to go back in only for you to get the full damage well after the explosion has visually ended.
The larger hitbox of Magma Wyrm's slam is indicated with a white shockwave. You find this shockwave on a lot of the aoe attacks to indicate a large hitbox (larger Godskin Apostle ground slam, and Godfreys stomps for example).
@@shade0636 yeah but you can, you know, jump the other schockwaves. Magma Wyrm also has terrible hitbox shifting/interaction so you’re constantly out of range despite being right under him.
@@Rexis102 I'm not arguing against those notions, I just disagree with the belief that there is no visual indicator for the extended hit box of the Magma Wyrm's slam.
@@shade0636 The thing is that the shockwave is not visible enough. It looks like it's just the dust from the weapon hitting the ground. If there was some actual explosion there wouldn't be a problem
A lot of the criticism towards DS2s hitboxes can probably be traced back to how ADP worked. Having a stat boost your ability to dodge is cool in concept but it falls apart in actual gameplay and it makes it feel like you clearly avoided some attacks when they still hit you because you had less I frames than the attack was designed with in mind. Also the way grab attacks pulled you into the attack instead of the enemies turning to you as they hit you made it look a lot worse.
The grab attack thing would have been fine if there wasn't a delay between the point it hit and the point it put you into the animation, instead there is a sort of delay that makes you look like you got hit way off from where you actually did.
@@Amir0 While I agree with you that grab attacks would look better without the delay, I still can't forgive the mimic grabbing you from behind. But yes that delay that gives you time to see what's happening is really strange. Is it a limitation? Maybe a check?
No. there are a lot of bad hitboxes that linger significantly too long. When the opponent's weapon has stopped swinging, the hitbox should be disabled. They also tend to be pretty wide even when the attack is a vertical slice or stab. Low adp certainly highlights them more, but they're bad regardless. That said, DS1 also has bad hitboxes, I definitely agree with that. DS3 too, though most weapon-based hitboxes are pretty good at that point.
Part of the issue is that ADP changes your s, but not your animation. It makes it really hard to get a feel for what parts of your roll are safe or not.
The visual effect lasted longer in the original. The remastered's fancier explosion effect lasts a little shorter than the actual explosion and messes up the timing. About ds2... Yes, there are some wacky hitboxes, but most of the time they're accurate enough. Too many ds3 fanboys complaining about good games punishing them for not following the rules. Stay together, company of chads
Lingering hitboxes, the great dark souls 1 experience. Had a blast (pun intended) with that shit while fighting the Demon Firesage and many other stuff. I also recommend checking out the Hydra in Darkroot Garden and it's water attacks, it's nasty bug hitboxes.
In general these games all have some baffling ass hitboxes, especially grabs, I'd say Sekiro has the worst of them like touching Guardian Ape's butt just to get grabbed because he's still in the animation, and it's easily replicable tbh lol.
kinda more forgiven in sekiro's case tho since most of the time ur not really even supposed to dodge attacks but stand head-on and parry em instead which ape is pretty much the only exception for
I think it was more visibly clear when it started and ended in PTDE, the Remaster changed a few things to be less visually accurate as far as I can tell.
Nah the stray demon/demon firesage fire aoe went from being basically invisible to having accurate visual representation. There was at least a little improvement.
@@GelmonHitboxes are a bloody frame that notifies the game the attack has hit you and you should take damage, the scale of which is the same as all other games. I frames just tell the game it should ignore said input during their duration, which with adp more than 10 is enough for most good dodges. Not being able to use said info is no bodies fault other than your own.
Thank you for posting this, I hate seeing Dark souls 1 fans hating on Dark souls 2 so much when most of their arguments like Hit boxes for example are just as bad or even worse in the first game.
Not a hot take, but people blame adaptability for bad hitboxes and that's never really been the issue. *Agility* is the stat that gives you more i-frames (a ring and few armors do this too) which you can level through attunement as well as the stat called adp. (You don't actually need to level adp once to get a desirable amount of i-frames, but instead leveling up attunement or vice-versa.) Hitboxes are a completely different issue that you see throughout the series. They're either really good or really bad. And that's seen in every souls game. With attunement you get cast speed increase, spell slot increase, per spell count increase, and agility increase. The "spell-blade" blade route being the way to go anyway because weapon scaling in ds2 hardly exists. If you should dislike any mechanic in dark souls 2, it should be soul memory.
Being pedantic about ADP vs. Agility is like being pedantic about VIG vs. HP. VIG isn't literally your HP stat, but it is the primary means to increase it. The same holds true for ADP and Agility.
@@batrachian149 Sure, you could. And actually furthers my point. Any stat investment increases your hp by quite a bit in dark souls 2. It is not mutually exclusive with leveling Vigor
I really dont get why devs have so much problem giving an attack the proper range to match with the visuals, im not asking for the hitbox to have the exact same shape of the weapon or something like that, im just asking for the hitbox to be as long and wide to match with the weapon, is always better to say "woah that almost hit me!" Than "how tf did that hit me?"
to be fair this seems more like a deceptively lingering hitbox issue than a size issue both are still problems, but i personally would prefer a longer lasting hitbox that actually matches the size of the model than visa versa, which is my experience in ds2.
Lingering hitboxes are harder to dodge on principle, I'd rather have an unclear, non-lingering, because I can dodge the hitbox even if I think I am out of range, instead of dodging at a more perfected timing.
Fume Knight can stab you through his own torso when you're behind him because the hitbox on his sword is just that wide. EDIT: I was mistaken, the hitbox on his sword is fine, but his other arm has an active hitbox during the attack. So he didn't actually stab me through his own torso while aiming at someone on the other side of the room, he just turned around and backhand smaked me in the face and did as much damage as his ultra greatsword. Because he doesn't actually need his sword, his basic punches and kicks do just as much damage, he uses the slow moveset to challenge himself and still had a recorded 93% kill rate. God save us all if he ever finds the Bone Fist, he'll make Horah Loux look like a bitch.
@Most unpunctual wildwest wood His hitboxes look like PvP hitboxes lol. Odd that he was so much fun to fight against despite the hitboxes being rather insufferable.
@Most unpunctual wildwest wood You should look up player hitboxes and learn why they are build that way. Player hitboxes are significantly wider to ensure you hit enemies and other players easier, but the same is often not appropriate for enemies to do against the player. Its why a lot of weapon hitboxes in the souls series are often very wide and a bit disjointed from the player.
Lingering hitboxes like this are cancer. Also I'm pretty sure the DS2 hitbox issues are more common though, that's what makes 'em worse. Especially with low ADP.
There are definitely terrible hitboxes in DS2. I remember the Loyce knights hit me with their thrust after my s ended even though their animation completely stopped.
To be fair, I can easily count at least 38 blue particles from the effect that are still visible the moment you get hit, making it a pretty fair and deserved hit.
Clearly the damage doesn't come from the violent force being exerted from the butterfly, it's the glitters that come out that will wreck you. (This is sarcasm, I agree that the hitbox lingers too long compared to what is visually shown)
idk why people say DS2 hitboxes are bad. If you fight every single ds2 boss without rolling and learn to strafe attacks instead of using s, you'll realize the hitboxes aren't as bad as you thought
It’s just group thinking, if someone complains about hitboxes in Ds2, it’s pretty safe to write their opinion off. There’s much more valid criticisms, like enemy saturation in small rooms, and insane tracking on some dudes.
They aren't as bad as some say, but they are still worst in the series imo. Even worse than DeS usually, which I'm playing on PS3, even though it has its own issues with hits
Of course. It's a cluky piece of shit that people think far too well of because of nostalgia. Dragon's Dogma aged like the best wine in the world in comparison.
B-but it got the Golden Joystick award of UlTiMaTe GaMe Of AlL tImE, it's a perfect masterpiece!!!11!1 Fr tho, DS1's second half made me hate the game, and the fact that an overwhelming ammount of Miyazaki fanboys act like it's a flawless "HaRd BuT fAiR" game while acting as if DS2 is the only game in the series that has flaws makes me hate it even more.
@@mp-sf3607 More like last 2 thirds. Anor Londo is blatantly unfinished and so is the last third of Sen's Fortress. That game was also rushed badly, the only reason why it's so loved is because they put way too much time in making the beginning of the game and because youtubers told them to. (Literally why it blew up so hard in the first place)
It's great for what it is. As for the person mentioning the Golden joystick award, didn't that award encompass the entire series? I was under that impression.
the worst thing ever is trying to fight titanite demons where even if you perfectly dodge a random hitbox would still catch you. Taurus demon too bcs if you try to go in after he smashes his axe to the ground you will get interrupted by a random hitbox
I loved DS1, but the problem is the lingering hitboxes as well as enemies like Titanite Demons and Kalameet where they have physical collision hit boxes that drag you into the hit boxes even when you perfectly timed the dodge correctly. I spent more time on Kalameet than any other boss in my SL1 run because of how bullshit his hitboxes were. Also spent ton of time trying to kill the titanite demon in Anor Londo because of how BS his hit boxes were and how he pulled me into his hitbox even though I dodged. With that said ,I disagree with the premise of the hitboxes being worse than DS2. DS2 was just a mess altogether.
I'm there with you. Love ds2 to death despite it's flaws. It's actually a miracle that DS2 wasn't canceled, considering how painful the development was.
Ds2 is easily my favourite. Sure it's pve was rather bad imo. But it's pvp and build verity Is easily the best in the series including elden ring. The fact any weapon was viable in ds2 was amazing.
everybody shits on any awkward moments ds2 has when ds1 was a significantly more broken (almost to the point of unplayability) game, but that one accident made by fromsoft during development gave them rose tinted glasses so, truth is, the game was rigged from the start
It sure was. DS2 is basically the scapegoat that they blame for everything wrong with the series. And 90% of the time it's just a shitty regurgitated "argument" that's flimsy at best. Saying the game is pretty fucking unfinished is one thing I can understand, since it relates to the lack of polish, thanks to Bamco.
@@asdergold1 also look at the giga success of elden ring, how giving something time results in a better product. that game doesnt have a hint of ds2, it fucking reeks of it. without a doubt in my mind the ds2 team pitched alot in for that game and with some real time, it was polished alot cleaner than ds2
Okay, let me address a thing about DS2 hitboxes. First of all, how can you trust what I'm about to say? I will just say this ruclips.net/video/VTS_lqpUmRc/видео.html It could be wrong, true, after all I wrote it, it's not included in the base game, but I made sure to run some tests and it seems to be quite precise. Plus, the logic comes from extended sessions of Reverse Engineering the parameters that make up hitboxes. Ok now, to the main issue here: DS2 hitboxes are not so much worse than ds3 for the most part. Sure, there are some examples, like Fume Knight and Mimic, some poison gas lingering too much, but it's mostly fine. I ran around the whole game with my viewer on, couldn't notice many things that bad. They are not bad, but they feel unfair. Why? Because of iFrames and ADP. Low ADP give you low enough iFrames for you to notice, I bet if you boot up a modded DS3 with the same iFrames as DS2 low ADP you'd notice it there too. What makes it even worse is the grab system and the "delay" Amir talks about in one of the comments below. In DS2, grabs are triggered by a validation hitbox, except for riposte which is triggered by a piece of geometry that spawns when the conditions are met. Think of all grab attacks as a backstab attempt from the player, you first do an animation that has to connect to the enemy, then you Backstab (keep in mind that backstabs, guard breaks and riposte are Grabs too). All grabs are essentially "backstab" attempts, they just play a different animation on both you and the target. I will release a video explaining this better when I have the time, exams are starting.
Your work on the DS2 hitboxes is amazing. You really deserve more views. From what I've seen it feels like the hitboxes are the same as the other games, but a few bad apples on janky rushed enemies (the giants, gutter dogs, etc) and ADP existing is what gave the game that bad hitbox reputation.
Yep. I'll never forget the hitbox of Titanite Demons' jump attack. Gotta be one of the worst From has ever made. Honestly Bloodborne is probably worse than 2 as well.
@@Sharkamfss Mhm. Bloodletting Beast in fact is one of the first things I think of when I think "bad Souls hitboxes" Honorable mention though to the...uh...hm. I forgot their name. In chalice dungeons, accompanying wandering keepers of flames. Like hellhounds. They have some hitbox issues too. And also the gargoyles in Cainhurst can animation skip into grappling you which isn't a hitbox exactly but it's jank af.
@@OccasionalGoof I just call those hellhounds. Don't remember their hitboxes but their whole design is bad, why the fuck do they endlessly jump towards you? I feel like the chalice dungeons are where unfinished design rejects go due to the terrible hitboxes and questionable moves they have.
@@Sharkamfss My experience is that Bloodborne has excellent hitboxes for the player's weapon (you can't hit shit if you miss it by a hair) and absolutely dogshit forward hitbox on most ennemy attacks. This was done to force the player dodging inwards.
Rather have a lingering hitbox here and there as opposed to being limited to EIGHT directional rolls. LMAO what a joke I have no idea how that was ever approved.
Since you've done frame data analysis, I was wondering if you can give a true answer, and not just a 'I think' answer. Do back steps, in DS1, have any i-frames? I know they have a property where you get unlimited poise, but what about i-frames? My underatanding is only DS2 had i-frames for backsteps, but I dont have any proof.
See it's actually 2 different issues: DS1/R has a lot of lingering attacks with long active frames so it's probably a 3ish-frame window to dodge things but there's 0 polish so a lot of things don't look right visually. DS2 you have half the invincibility at 6 frames with most starting classes and only get 13 i-frames at 105 Agility which is commonly reached at 25/25 ADP/Attunement as you get 5 attunement slots and pyro is still busted as you can get both Lingering Flame and the Pyro Glove relatively quickly
And because people love to blame the game when it was their fault 90% of the time. Seriously, they whine so much about it when they just roll early during a delayed attack. Once. Or they just can't learn and keep fucking up. It's like these people's brains rot whenever they play 2 for some godforsaken reason.
@@asdergold1 It's possible to avoid pretty much any attack in the series consistently. The problem with many of DS2's attacks is that you have to unlearn the usual method of looking at what the enemy's model is doing and instead overcorrect/trial and error your way into figuring out what works. For instance, the ogres' grab attacks have absolutely no business getting you if you roll to the side, based on their animations. But they still do and that's a frustrating experience. Like I said, it's possible to avoid pretty much any attack pattern, but if the only way to learn it is by pretty much ignoring what's actually on your screen, something's wrong with the animation.
Not great, but not that bad, you were very close to the explosion and you move at it immediately after it happened and not when it finished it's animation completely (you could see that part of the explosion were still visible). The explosion hitbox should have ended a little sooner, but you was also impacient. Also the proble is with lingering hitbox, not the actual hitbox size.
tbf ds2 never deserved all the hate just because some grab animations looked off, they always connected to the player in some way and yeah adp and the lack of understanding people had for it did the rest. but please don't jump on the "but this and that did it way worse"-train, after all ds1 had pretty solid hitboxes for the time in most regards, these lingering hitboxes are not that common (Ok, after thinking about it, they are with many bosses, but it's not THAT big of a deal)
A grab animation that teleports you to the boss from a dozen meters away has still "connected to the player in some way". That's how hitboxes work. If the hitboxes don't touch, the animation can't fire. A misleading animation is still BS. For example, Pursuer's sword grab can fire even though the sword isn't even close to impaling the player character's model. This issue occurs regardless of how much ADP the player character has. So no, it's not just a matter of ADP being an opaque core mechanic. DS2 has very misleading animations.
@@batrachian149 more like clunky as shit startups because it's pretty unfinished. And that was the salvaged game after getting a shittier deadline and more work on top. Imagine if the first director stayed. Jesus.
@@asdergold1 It def suffered from severe development hell, yeah. Coulda been amazing if it was pulled off better. By startup do you mean the part of the animation before it locks you into place? If so, ye I guess that's another way to phrase it. They're clunky because they're misleading tho.
Why people feel the need to compare hitboxes - it doesn't matter, everyone knows, when hitboxes are "bad", including devs, sometimes they are, maybe, bugs - I've had skeletons attack me through shields in ds3 and elden ring - this is impossible to replicate for me^
Because someone somewhere said that "DS2 hitboxes bad" and the bandwagon has been going for years, oblivious to the absolute state of hitboxes in all Souls games (and Sekiro too) So the purpose of showing this is more to educate people rather than actually complain or say "x game bad"
ehh, it's almost more likely that stop attacks are slow af, and people dodge way too early, I can reliably dodge all stomp attacks I have encountered at 92 agility (my preferred Iframe count)
lol that's it? Bruh dark souls 2 is an entire game filled with crap hit boxes and shit movement but oh yeah THIS means dark souls 1 had bad hit boxes, same with 3 i guess and even elden ring. All pale in comparison to dark souls 2 right
The Ds2 hitboxes are so "Bad" cause the devs legit thought people would pump ADP so they made the hitboxes lorge to compensate is the theory I run with.
Nooo how dare you dark souls is perfect!! You must have been cheating or doing something wrong as I have never encountered a glitch is 69million playthrough!1!!!one!!!
Why are all DS2 defenders so cringe? For every bad hitbox you find in DS1/DS3 I can show you 10 worse ones from DS2, and when you run out of ammo I ll still have plenty more.
lol really?you have some jokes. Thats an AOE attack,and those normally do that because they linger a bit more than the visual thing,you can see this as well in 4 Kings and on those fat dragons that make that fire explosion and a few others. Nice try,but nothing beats dks2 sh"itty hitboxes where a trust attack can hit you sideways,ive witness this alot,and i do mean it because you know.....adap stat..lol edit;after reading this coment section,i decided i went to wrong vid with wrong players...now aparentelly dks2 has great hitboxes....hoo my this comunity is behond believe.... ok whatever but...lol.. hoo and i forgot,i surelly love when someplayers compare some particulary aspects to dks1 lets say to dks3... i need to adress that dks1 has 11 fu..in years btw. Still the very best ; )
Why people feel the need to compare hitboxes - it doesn't matter, everyone knows, when hitboxes are "bad", including devs, sometimes they are, maybe, bugs - I've had skeletons attack me through shields in ds3 and elden ring - this is impossible to replicate for me^
Why are all DS2 defenders so cringe? For every bad hitbox you find in DS1/DS3 I can show you 10 worse ones from DS2, and when you run out of ammo I ll still have plenty more.
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Lingering hitboxes and big AoE hitboxes in general have a tendency to not be well represented visually. Even in Elden Ring the Magma Wyrm's slam attack has a way bigger hitbox than the animation would make you believe so it's not only an issue with older games. And it's not necesearly an issue with the hitbox itself but rather the lack of any visual effect that would indicate it's size. With lingering hitboxes like this the visuall effect dissapears too fast and makes it look like it's safe to go back in only for you to get the full damage well after the explosion has visually ended.
The larger hitbox of Magma Wyrm's slam is indicated with a white shockwave. You find this shockwave on a lot of the aoe attacks to indicate a large hitbox (larger Godskin Apostle ground slam, and Godfreys stomps for example).
@@shade0636 yeah but you can, you know, jump the other schockwaves. Magma Wyrm also has terrible hitbox shifting/interaction so you’re constantly out of range despite being right under him.
@@Rexis102 I'm not arguing against those notions, I just disagree with the belief that there is no visual indicator for the extended hit box of the Magma Wyrm's slam.
@@shade0636 ah I see
@@shade0636 The thing is that the shockwave is not visible enough. It looks like it's just the dust from the weapon hitting the ground. If there was some actual explosion there wouldn't be a problem
A lot of the criticism towards DS2s hitboxes can probably be traced back to how ADP worked. Having a stat boost your ability to dodge is cool in concept but it falls apart in actual gameplay and it makes it feel like you clearly avoided some attacks when they still hit you because you had less I frames than the attack was designed with in mind. Also the way grab attacks pulled you into the attack instead of the enemies turning to you as they hit you made it look a lot worse.
Ds2 hitboxes are fine, mostly. Trust me on this, I know it very well
The grab attack thing would have been fine if there wasn't a delay between the point it hit and the point it put you into the animation, instead there is a sort of delay that makes you look like you got hit way off from where you actually did.
@@Amir0 While I agree with you that grab attacks would look better without the delay, I still can't forgive the mimic grabbing you from behind.
But yes that delay that gives you time to see what's happening is really strange. Is it a limitation? Maybe a check?
No. there are a lot of bad hitboxes that linger significantly too long. When the opponent's weapon has stopped swinging, the hitbox should be disabled. They also tend to be pretty wide even when the attack is a vertical slice or stab.
Low adp certainly highlights them more, but they're bad regardless.
That said, DS1 also has bad hitboxes, I definitely agree with that. DS3 too, though most weapon-based hitboxes are pretty good at that point.
Part of the issue is that ADP changes your s, but not your animation. It makes it really hard to get a feel for what parts of your roll are safe or not.
“That’s a nice argument senator. Now how about you back it up with a source!”
"the source is that I made it the F**k up!"
You're...looking at it.
@@dragonslayermasterornstein83
Source? JK
The visual effect lasted longer in the original. The remastered's fancier explosion effect lasts a little shorter than the actual explosion and messes up the timing.
About ds2... Yes, there are some wacky hitboxes, but most of the time they're accurate enough. Too many ds3 fanboys complaining about good games punishing them for not following the rules. Stay together, company of chads
Chad opinion and statement of facts
Based
Lingering hitboxes, the great dark souls 1 experience. Had a blast (pun intended) with that shit while fighting the Demon Firesage and many other stuff.
I also recommend checking out the Hydra in Darkroot Garden and it's water attacks, it's nasty bug hitboxes.
In general these games all have some baffling ass hitboxes, especially grabs, I'd say Sekiro has the worst of them like touching Guardian Ape's butt just to get grabbed because he's still in the animation, and it's easily replicable tbh lol.
kinda more forgiven in sekiro's case tho since most of the time ur not really even supposed to dodge attacks but stand head-on and parry em instead
which ape is pretty much the only exception for
@@JustBizmuth That's honestly fair lol, I love all these games tbh it's just funny pointing out stuff like this
@@chainbomb can agree on that
Sekiro has very tight hitboxes, i can dodge an attack accidently just because i moved 1 inch to the left while i was deflecting consecutive attacks
@@abrahamrangel2326 Pretty standard stuff for New Gen FromSoft.
Those lingering hitboxes get even worse in Demon's Souls lmao
they do...they do.
I think it was more visibly clear when it started and ended in PTDE, the Remaster changed a few things to be less visually accurate as far as I can tell.
Nah the stray demon/demon firesage fire aoe went from being basically invisible to having accurate visual representation. There was at least a little improvement.
Stray demon's explosions didn't even have borders in the original, you could not reasonably gauge where the hitbox started and ended in ptde
Stray Demon and Titanite Beasts alone had worse hitboxes than the entirety of Dark Souls 2 combined
Yeah nah
@@colonelsanders69 name 1 single boss attack in ds2 with a worse hitbox than the Titanite Demon's attacks that isn't a grab
@@xuanathan The whole game when you don't know agility affects i-frames
@@GelmonHitboxes are a bloody frame that notifies the game the attack has hit you and you should take damage, the scale of which is the same as all other games. I frames just tell the game it should ignore said input during their duration, which with adp more than 10 is enough for most good dodges. Not being able to use said info is no bodies fault other than your own.
Thank you for posting this, I hate seeing Dark souls 1 fans hating on Dark souls 2 so much when most of their arguments like Hit boxes for example are just as bad or even worse in the first game.
Nothing can beat the DS2 mimic grabs
Iron golem grab easily beats all of ds2 hitboxes
The only mimic that has an Attack while he stand up, they would probably the same if they had an attack in the other games
the DS 3 Evangelist would like to have a word whit you ruclips.net/video/6Dg_RYYv178/видео.html
have you seen curse rotted greatwoods grab attack? you don't see it coming until 1 frame before it gets you, and the hitbox is absolutely atrocious.
@@Aldator funny how the only accurate grab attack hitbox is in DS2 on the Pursuer enemies.
Definatley not
Not even Ds2 adp can fix Ds1 hitboxes
Not a hot take, but people blame adaptability for bad hitboxes and that's never really been the issue. *Agility* is the stat that gives you more i-frames (a ring and few armors do this too) which you can level through attunement as well as the stat called adp. (You don't actually need to level adp once to get a desirable amount of i-frames, but instead leveling up attunement or vice-versa.) Hitboxes are a completely different issue that you see throughout the series. They're either really good or really bad. And that's seen in every souls game.
With attunement you get cast speed increase, spell slot increase, per spell count increase, and agility increase. The "spell-blade" blade route being the way to go anyway because weapon scaling in ds2 hardly exists.
If you should dislike any mechanic in dark souls 2, it should be soul memory.
Being pedantic about ADP vs. Agility is like being pedantic about VIG vs. HP. VIG isn't literally your HP stat, but it is the primary means to increase it. The same holds true for ADP and Agility.
@@batrachian149 Sure, you could. And actually furthers my point. Any stat investment increases your hp by quite a bit in dark souls 2. It is not mutually exclusive with leveling Vigor
@@Hahvayz This isn't a discussion.
@@batrachian149 Haha! Fair enough, have a good day. And indeed, I simply stated a fact ✊
@@Hahvayz No, you stated a weak argument as a fact. This is something known as "dishonesty".
I really dont get why devs have so much problem giving an attack the proper range to match with the visuals, im not asking for the hitbox to have the exact same shape of the weapon or something like that, im just asking for the hitbox to be as long and wide to match with the weapon, is always better to say "woah that almost hit me!" Than "how tf did that hit me?"
Whilst I agree and DS1 can have even worse hitboxes at times, DS2 is more consistent at having poor hitboxes.
“Get fk’d, loser”
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to be fair this seems more like a deceptively lingering hitbox issue than a size issue
both are still problems, but i personally would prefer a longer lasting hitbox that actually matches the size of the model than visa versa, which is my experience in ds2.
Lingering hitboxes are harder to dodge on principle, I'd rather have an unclear, non-lingering, because I can dodge the hitbox even if I think I am out of range, instead of dodging at a more perfected timing.
Fume Knight can stab you through his own torso when you're behind him because the hitbox on his sword is just that wide.
EDIT: I was mistaken, the hitbox on his sword is fine, but his other arm has an active hitbox during the attack. So he didn't actually stab me through his own torso while aiming at someone on the other side of the room, he just turned around and backhand smaked me in the face and did as much damage as his ultra greatsword. Because he doesn't actually need his sword, his basic punches and kicks do just as much damage, he uses the slow moveset to challenge himself and still had a recorded 93% kill rate. God save us all if he ever finds the Bone Fist, he'll make Horah Loux look like a bitch.
@Most unpunctual wildwest wood His hitboxes look like PvP hitboxes lol. Odd that he was so much fun to fight against despite the hitboxes being rather insufferable.
@Most unpunctual wildwest wood You should look up player hitboxes and learn why they are build that way.
Player hitboxes are significantly wider to ensure you hit enemies and other players easier, but the same is often not appropriate for enemies to do against the player.
Its why a lot of weapon hitboxes in the souls series are often very wide and a bit disjointed from the player.
I never got hit by that arm that r u saying tho, in 9 years.
I'd rather take lingering hitboxes over ds2's oversized ones
Lingering hitboxes like this are cancer.
Also I'm pretty sure the DS2 hitbox issues are more common though, that's what makes 'em worse. Especially with low ADP.
Hitbox issues and lower agility are not the same thing to be fair
@@Hahvayz lower agility does highlight them sometimes, that's what I meant.
There are definitely terrible hitboxes in DS2. I remember the Loyce knights hit me with their thrust after my s ended even though their animation completely stopped.
yeah the same annoying explosion that stray demon did. already blew up but the hitbox is still around the AoE.
To be fair, I can easily count at least 38 blue particles from the effect that are still visible the moment you get hit, making it a pretty fair and deserved hit.
Clearly the damage doesn't come from the violent force being exerted from the butterfly, it's the glitters that come out that will wreck you.
(This is sarcasm, I agree that the hitbox lingers too long compared to what is visually shown)
idk why people say DS2 hitboxes are bad. If you fight every single ds2 boss without rolling and learn to strafe attacks instead of using s, you'll realize the hitboxes aren't as bad as you thought
It’s just group thinking, if someone complains about hitboxes in Ds2, it’s pretty safe to write their opinion off. There’s much more valid criticisms, like enemy saturation in small rooms, and insane tracking on some dudes.
@@2HandHangerDunksOnly It's not an opinion it is a fact.The hitboxes in DS2 are often really bad and inconsistent.
They aren't as bad as some say, but they are still worst in the series imo. Even worse than DeS usually, which I'm playing on PS3, even though it has its own issues with hits
@@Samura1313 its not just the arm, it's his sword too, fume Knight is in power stance
It's almost like DS1 isn't as great as people remember
Naaaah. Nah.
Of course. It's a cluky piece of shit that people think far too well of because of nostalgia.
Dragon's Dogma aged like the best wine in the world in comparison.
B-but it got the Golden Joystick award of UlTiMaTe GaMe Of AlL tImE, it's a perfect masterpiece!!!11!1
Fr tho, DS1's second half made me hate the game, and the fact that an overwhelming ammount of Miyazaki fanboys act like it's a flawless "HaRd BuT fAiR" game while acting as if DS2 is the only game in the series that has flaws makes me hate it even more.
@@mp-sf3607 More like last 2 thirds.
Anor Londo is blatantly unfinished and so is the last third of Sen's Fortress.
That game was also rushed badly, the only reason why it's so loved is because they put way too much time in making the beginning of the game and because youtubers told them to. (Literally why it blew up so hard in the first place)
It's great for what it is. As for the person mentioning the Golden joystick award, didn't that award encompass the entire series? I was under that impression.
lol, what the fuck.
Looks like DS2 pre-patch Wrath of the Gods.
i don't think there's ever been a fromsoft game that had good AoE hitboxes that actually stopped doing damage when they were supposed to
The enemy tracking in DS2 is insane
elden ring says hi
i have played ds2 for about 24 hours now, and the enemies turn slower than a semitruck doing a three-point turn
Replaying the remaster this week, i was unpleasantly surprised about how long the centipede demon arm hitbox stays active too.
the worst thing ever is trying to fight titanite demons where even if you perfectly dodge a random hitbox would still catch you.
Taurus demon too bcs if you try to go in after he smashes his axe to the ground you will get interrupted by a random hitbox
Show them the actual size of Iron Golem's grab box that goes up to his fucking elbow.
I loved DS1, but the problem is the lingering hitboxes as well as enemies like Titanite Demons and Kalameet where they have physical collision hit boxes that drag you into the hit boxes even when you perfectly timed the dodge correctly. I spent more time on Kalameet than any other boss in my SL1 run because of how bullshit his hitboxes were. Also spent ton of time trying to kill the titanite demon in Anor Londo because of how BS his hit boxes were and how he pulled me into his hitbox even though I dodged.
With that said ,I disagree with the premise of the hitboxes being worse than DS2. DS2 was just a mess altogether.
No one wants to admit it but it’s sometimes true 😭
thanks brain dead influencers and people with cult mentality
DS2 was worse than ds1 but it had its advantages. I still love ds2 in spite of its faults.
I'm there with you. Love ds2 to death despite it's flaws. It's actually a miracle that DS2 wasn't canceled, considering how painful the development was.
Ds2 is easily my favourite. Sure it's pve was rather bad imo. But it's pvp and build verity Is easily the best in the series including elden ring. The fact any weapon was viable in ds2 was amazing.
Nope
everybody shits on any awkward moments ds2 has when ds1 was a significantly more broken (almost to the point of unplayability) game, but that one accident made by fromsoft during development gave them rose tinted glasses
so, truth is, the game was rigged from the start
It sure was.
DS2 is basically the scapegoat that they blame for everything wrong with the series. And 90% of the time it's just a shitty regurgitated "argument" that's flimsy at best.
Saying the game is pretty fucking unfinished is one thing I can understand, since it relates to the lack of polish, thanks to Bamco.
@@asdergold1 also look at the giga success of elden ring, how giving something time results in a better product. that game doesnt have a hint of ds2, it fucking reeks of it. without a doubt in my mind the ds2 team pitched alot in for that game and with some real time, it was polished alot cleaner than ds2
@@Gabriel_Blair Love how you mention how it is so DS2 when it borrows most things from DS3. And also how you say DS2 team.
Get over yourself, mate.
You walked into a still active effect. Your fault.
You think this is bad? Try the titanite demons tail whip.
Okay, let me address a thing about DS2 hitboxes. First of all, how can you trust what I'm about to say? I will just say this
ruclips.net/video/VTS_lqpUmRc/видео.html
It could be wrong, true, after all I wrote it, it's not included in the base game, but I made sure to run some tests and it seems to be quite precise. Plus, the logic comes from extended sessions of Reverse Engineering the parameters that make up hitboxes.
Ok now, to the main issue here: DS2 hitboxes are not so much worse than ds3 for the most part. Sure, there are some examples, like Fume Knight and Mimic, some poison gas lingering too much, but it's mostly fine. I ran around the whole game with my viewer on, couldn't notice many things that bad.
They are not bad, but they feel unfair. Why? Because of iFrames and ADP. Low ADP give you low enough iFrames for you to notice, I bet if you boot up a modded DS3 with the same iFrames as DS2 low ADP you'd notice it there too.
What makes it even worse is the grab system and the "delay" Amir talks about in one of the comments below. In DS2, grabs are triggered by a validation hitbox, except for riposte which is triggered by a piece of geometry that spawns when the conditions are met. Think of all grab attacks as a backstab attempt from the player, you first do an animation that has to connect to the enemy, then you Backstab (keep in mind that backstabs, guard breaks and riposte are Grabs too). All grabs are essentially "backstab" attempts, they just play a different animation on both you and the target. I will release a video explaining this better when I have the time, exams are starting.
Your work on the DS2 hitboxes is amazing. You really deserve more views. From what I've seen it feels like the hitboxes are the same as the other games, but a few bad apples on janky rushed enemies (the giants, gutter dogs, etc) and ADP existing is what gave the game that bad hitbox reputation.
@@HopelessEvenings thanks :)
Yep. I'll never forget the hitbox of Titanite Demons' jump attack. Gotta be one of the worst From has ever made. Honestly Bloodborne is probably worse than 2 as well.
Bloodborne has excellent hitboxes for the most part. Darkbeast Paarl, Bloodletting beast and Amygdala do have some terrible hitboxes.
@@Sharkamfss Mhm. Bloodletting Beast in fact is one of the first things I think of when I think "bad Souls hitboxes"
Honorable mention though to the...uh...hm. I forgot their name. In chalice dungeons, accompanying wandering keepers of flames. Like hellhounds. They have some hitbox issues too. And also the gargoyles in Cainhurst can animation skip into grappling you which isn't a hitbox exactly but it's jank af.
@@OccasionalGoof I just call those hellhounds. Don't remember their hitboxes but their whole design is bad, why the fuck do they endlessly jump towards you? I feel like the chalice dungeons are where unfinished design rejects go due to the terrible hitboxes and questionable moves they have.
@@Sharkamfss My experience is that Bloodborne has excellent hitboxes for the player's weapon (you can't hit shit if you miss it by a hair) and absolutely dogshit forward hitbox on most ennemy attacks.
This was done to force the player dodging inwards.
@@godefroiddebouillon7769 From what I see of boss fights done without dodging or sprinting, hitboxes on some bosses are just too excellent.
Genuinely i think a lot of the ds2 hitbox problems come from the rolling animation in that game
Or generally feet getting caught in an attack. Because the feet have big hitboxes.
did you try leveling up adp?
Rather have a lingering hitbox here and there as opposed to being limited to EIGHT directional rolls. LMAO what a joke I have no idea how that was ever approved.
you rather sell your wife and sacrifice your daughter before accepting you are wrong about ds2. Yep you are cult member
Since you've done frame data analysis, I was wondering if you can give a true answer, and not just a 'I think' answer.
Do back steps, in DS1, have any i-frames?
I know they have a property where you get unlimited poise, but what about i-frames?
My underatanding is only DS2 had i-frames for backsteps, but I dont have any proof.
See it's actually 2 different issues: DS1/R has a lot of lingering attacks with long active frames so it's probably a 3ish-frame window to dodge things but there's 0 polish so a lot of things don't look right visually. DS2 you have half the invincibility at 6 frames with most starting classes and only get 13 i-frames at 105 Agility which is commonly reached at 25/25 ADP/Attunement as you get 5 attunement slots and pyro is still busted as you can get both Lingering Flame and the Pyro Glove relatively quickly
sorry mr amir, that's wrong.
meanwhile new fromsoft players complaining about lingering hitboxes in elden ring
The endless ejaculation one's are 1000 times worse
The main reason ds2s are regarded as worse are because that game gives you less I frames
And because people love to blame the game when it was their fault 90% of the time.
Seriously, they whine so much about it when they just roll early during a delayed attack. Once. Or they just can't learn and keep fucking up.
It's like these people's brains rot whenever they play 2 for some godforsaken reason.
@@asdergold1 It's possible to avoid pretty much any attack in the series consistently. The problem with many of DS2's attacks is that you have to unlearn the usual method of looking at what the enemy's model is doing and instead overcorrect/trial and error your way into figuring out what works. For instance, the ogres' grab attacks have absolutely no business getting you if you roll to the side, based on their animations. But they still do and that's a frustrating experience.
Like I said, it's possible to avoid pretty much any attack pattern, but if the only way to learn it is by pretty much ignoring what's actually on your screen, something's wrong with the animation.
Tbh i've never thought to go in after that attack
Not great, but not that bad, you were very close to the explosion and you move at it immediately after it happened and not when it finished it's animation completely (you could see that part of the explosion were still visible). The explosion hitbox should have ended a little sooner, but you was also impacient. Also the proble is with lingering hitbox, not the actual hitbox size.
beautiful
Finally someone said it
But for real tho, aoe atacks on ds1 are ridiculous
God i dont miss ds 1 character voices at all.
Reminding me elden ring
Catacomb cat with sword, thrust attack
i just obliterate those shitbags from range i hate them so much
tbf ds2 never deserved all the hate just because some grab animations looked off, they always connected to the player in some way and yeah adp and the lack of understanding people had for it did the rest. but please don't jump on the "but this and that did it way worse"-train, after all ds1 had pretty solid hitboxes for the time in most regards, these lingering hitboxes are not that common (Ok, after thinking about it, they are with many bosses, but it's not THAT big of a deal)
A grab animation that teleports you to the boss from a dozen meters away has still "connected to the player in some way". That's how hitboxes work. If the hitboxes don't touch, the animation can't fire. A misleading animation is still BS.
For example, Pursuer's sword grab can fire even though the sword isn't even close to impaling the player character's model. This issue occurs regardless of how much ADP the player character has. So no, it's not just a matter of ADP being an opaque core mechanic. DS2 has very misleading animations.
@@batrachian149 more like clunky as shit startups because it's pretty unfinished.
And that was the salvaged game after getting a shittier deadline and more work on top. Imagine if the first director stayed. Jesus.
@@asdergold1 It def suffered from severe development hell, yeah. Coulda been amazing if it was pulled off better.
By startup do you mean the part of the animation before it locks you into place? If so, ye I guess that's another way to phrase it. They're clunky because they're misleading tho.
Why people feel the need to compare hitboxes - it doesn't matter, everyone knows, when hitboxes are "bad", including devs, sometimes they are, maybe, bugs - I've had skeletons attack me through shields in ds3 and elden ring - this is impossible to replicate for me^
Because someone somewhere said that "DS2 hitboxes bad" and the bandwagon has been going for years, oblivious to the absolute state of hitboxes in all Souls games (and Sekiro too)
So the purpose of showing this is more to educate people rather than actually complain or say "x game bad"
Level up resistance bro, it works for me.
That's a REMUSTARD problem, not of the original.
They didn't change jack except for the 40$ bonfire, it's the same as before.
Nope, that definitely is a problem in the original too
Git gud
Level ADP 💪
as skyrim fans would say, its not a bug its a feature
Ds1 and Ds2 have way too many lingering hitboxes, but i feel like ds2 has them in almost all stomp attacks, making it more common.
ehh, it's almost more likely that stop attacks are slow af, and people dodge way too early, I can reliably dodge all stomp attacks I have encountered at 92 agility (my preferred Iframe count)
Unpopular opinion: Elden Ring's AoE hitboxes are pretty bad as the hitbox of the explosion often goes further than the actual explosion particles.
The title implies a gamewide issue, but the video shows 1 example. FS games almost always have a few terrible hitboxes, all ARPGs do. Sad but oh well
that's a problem every game with a 60 fps port have
Ahh yes, my favourite #ELDENRING content ;)
The hydra has probably the worst hitbox in any game of all time
I felt that...far more than I should have😂
Dark Souls 2 is the best. No sarcasm.
Without iron... keep ?
facts
skill issue
Just the occasional one I think. DS2... It's better not to mention it.
how come?
@@Hahvayz "DS2 bad we don't talk about it" that kind of stuff.
Lol shitpost
Always has been
One example Vs a whole games worth.
"THIS ONE EXAMPLE MEANS ITS ALL SO MUCH WORSE THAN THE WORST HOTBOXES IN GAMING HISTORY!"
guys, this comment here isn't biased! I fully trust that it isn't a case of rosy retrospection
lol that's it? Bruh dark souls 2 is an entire game filled with crap hit boxes and shit movement but oh yeah THIS means dark souls 1 had bad hit boxes, same with 3 i guess and even elden ring. All pale in comparison to dark souls 2 right
#EldenCringe
ds1 is worse than ds2
said no one ahahshshshshsh
True 💯🙉🥵
Yeah we know, people just don't like to admit it
@@minecraftmaster12245 I definitely say this with ease
"They hated Jesus because he told them the truth."
The Ds2 hitboxes are so "Bad" cause the devs legit thought people would pump ADP so they made the hitboxes lorge to compensate is the theory I run with.
skill issue tbh
Wellwellwellwellwell... you see, that is you know, like that. Ds2 hitboxes are bad
Nooo how dare you dark souls is perfect!! You must have been cheating or doing something wrong as I have never encountered a glitch is 69million playthrough!1!!!one!!!
they were equally bad in different ways
DS1 actually had the best and most consistent hitboxes in the series
And that's because it's barely better than the other games'.
The bar is low.
What? Are we sure about this? Same game that has titanite demon and ceaseless discharge?
@@Sharkamfss I'm sure. It still has like the best hitboxes for large enemies
"Dark Souls 1 Hitboxes were worse than Ds2"
Not a hot-take, but a disingenuous one tho
Why are all DS2 defenders so cringe? For every bad hitbox you find in DS1/DS3 I can show you 10 worse ones from DS2, and when you run out of ammo I ll still have plenty more.
lol really?you have some jokes.
Thats an AOE attack,and those normally do that because they linger a bit more than the visual thing,you can see this as well in 4 Kings and on those fat dragons that make that fire explosion and a few others.
Nice try,but nothing beats dks2 sh"itty hitboxes where a trust attack can hit you sideways,ive witness this alot,and i do mean it because you know.....adap stat..lol
edit;after reading this coment section,i decided i went to wrong vid with wrong players...now aparentelly dks2 has great hitboxes....hoo my this comunity is behond believe....
ok whatever but...lol..
hoo and i forgot,i surelly love when someplayers compare some particulary aspects to dks1 lets say to dks3...
i need to adress that dks1 has 11 fu..in years btw.
Still the very best ; )
So what you're saying is that it's an attack where the visual and the hitbox do not match up
Therefore, a bad hitbox
@@themrdoggo Lingering hitbox.Is diferent because only a specific type of aoe attacks have this and people who know these know this,not a surprise.
skill issue
Why people feel the need to compare hitboxes - it doesn't matter, everyone knows, when hitboxes are "bad", including devs, sometimes they are, maybe, bugs - I've had skeletons attack me through shields in ds3 and elden ring - this is impossible to replicate for me^
Why are all DS2 defenders so cringe? For every bad hitbox you find in DS1/DS3 I can show you 10 worse ones from DS2, and when you run out of ammo I ll still have plenty more.