Which is Better? Column Wheel vs Cam-Lever Actuated Chronographs - Perth WAtch #90
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
- A discussion on the merits & drawbacks of the two major types of chronograph actuations (column wheel & cam-lever) & some comments on horizontal & vertical clutch mechanisms.
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Oris Aquis Titan Chronograph (feat. ETA Valjoux 7750) - www.oris.ch/en/watches/oris-d...
Seagull 1963 Reissue FKJB (feat. caliber ST1901) - www.seagullwatchstore.com/Sea...
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Perth WAtch - Sharing my passion for horology and watches. Enjoy the videos on watch reviews, general thoughts & discussions, side-by-side comparisons, horology topics, and more!
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When I was a kid my favorite uncle, Charlie Macgill, a WWII B-24 and B-17 pilot with the 8th Air Force based in Sudbury England, had a Universal Geneve Tri Compax chronograph watch. I lusted after the thing but he left it to his son, my cousin and I never saw it again. Recently, though, I found an identical watch on line and using, irresponsibly, a credit card, spent more for it than I had for my second hand Jaguar. I love the thing and hope to for the few years I`m around as I`m two years into my ninth decade.
Thanks for sharing that story... a watch you’ve had your mind on all these years, and finally managed to find one when you had the means to acquire it. Enjoy it in good health!
Now I understand what all the fuss is about. Column wheel. Thanks for a great demonstration to go along with the explanation.
Cheers man, glad you found this helpful! :)
Nah Flixzone sucks!
I've been waiting for years to have this topic addressed on YT. Don't know why the so-called gurus have avoided this issue ... I concluded it must be because of the general unpopularity of the chrono complication. Whatever ... you nailed it good and proper Ivan. Many thanks. Next month I intend to add a column wheel mechanical to my collection of 6 quartz chronos. Have to decide between an Alpha or the Sea-Gull 1963 due to budgetary restrictions as ever.
Thanks Brian! You know I didn't even take a look at what's been done on YT prior to doing this video... I guess I found it a fascinating topic and just thought I'd put this out there. Hopefully people find it a useful yarn! Alpha vs. Seagull is difficult choice given how Alpha really pushes the price... if they were similar cost I'd go Seagull with display back no question. Cheers, Ivan.
I didn't even know I had a column-wheel chrono. until you caused me to look. Very well done. Thank you.
Glad this was helpful!!
I have a watch with a column wheel/vertical clutch design and I appreciate you explaining it a little! I know a little more about my chronograph now.
Cool, glad to hear this helpful - which watch do you have? What movement?
I was just researching about this topic few days ago, thanks, very informative video.
Thanks for that - glad you have found it helpful! Cheers, Ivan.
Great video! Good info. I like how you mentioned the clutches too. Thanks
Most welcome - glad you found it helpful
Thanks so much for that, it was really educational and explained very well
You're very welcome! Glad it was helpful!
The Omega Speedmasters that went to the moon were column wheel. Omega cheapened up the Speedmaster some years later by removing the column wheel and replacing it with a clutch. Too bad they did!
Actually I'm pretty sure only the first mission (or first two) had the 321 movements which were column wheel, with subsequent missions having moonwatches with the 861 movement that were cam-lever type (same as the modern 1861). As far as I'm aware these watches remain flight-certified by NASA.
They replaced it with a cam & lever, all chronos whether column wheel or cam & lever have a clutch.
Super interesting video, thanks for sharing.
Thanks for that Christopher - glad you enjoyed it! :)
Hi Perth watch thanks for getting back to me. My version is the one that doesn't have the 'Alpha' logo. I love the matte dial. I must say I'm impressed with the overall quality at the price point. I decided to take off the metal bracelet as l noticed in your review that one of the pins failed. I heard of this happening in another written review. I ordered a rubber strap for it. While waiting for the strap l tested the accuracy of the watch. Left dial up for 24hrs it gains 9 seconds. Placed dial down for 24 hrs it only gains about 3 seconds. I got the rubber strap today so can now start wearing the watch. Hopefully it will be a good timekeeper. My only concern is long term reliability. I've read that Seagull only puts the best of their movements in their own watches. However other brands like Alpha use their movements but not sure whether the movements are exactly as good as in Seagull's own watches. Another thing I've heard is that Seagull has a few factories producing movements so quality may vary. However the performance of my watch has made a good first impression so hopefully it's as good as a Seagull 1963. I'd welcome any thoughts you have on these points.
Thanks for sharing - sounds like you got a piece with decent QC! Haven't seen substantiation that Seagull does that with the movement distribution, but not surprising if so, and it's their right to do so I suppose.
Hi Ivan
Thank you for that very informative review. I must admit I would have thought that the Oris would have had a superior movement than the homage watch.
Thanks for that Mark! I do need to clarify... I think there is absolutely no doubt that the ETA Valjoux movement *is* better than the Seagull. The Swiss Valjoux is extremely reliable, capable of COSC regulation, and is one of the most widely used movements around, whereas the Seagull has some variable reports in reliability, etc. Cheers, Ivan.
Very interesting video ! Thanks
Cheers James - thanks for the comment!
Excellent video, the funny thing that the seagull is cheaper to buy even though it's harder to manufacture. If you want a vertical column wheel chronograph for a relatively low price, get a vintage Seiko 6139 or 6138. Although they were among first automatic chronographs they certainly got them right.
Just subscribed 👍
Thank you for the insightful comment! I think in reality the Seagull remains cheaper to make, and there are probably some short cuts being taken (or overall lower QC) seeing as the reliability reports seem variable, whereas the ETA 7750 continues to have a long track record of near bulletproof reliability. I will take a closer look at those Seiko models - much appreciated! Cheers, Ivan.
Great video as usual
Thank you - hope it was helpful! :)
Nice comparo mate ... well explained . Thx .
Most welcome - glad it was helpful :)
thanks good video. Duboi-Deprez makes the chrono modules for many high end brands such as Girard Perregaux and AP.
Thanks - nice!!
I have two Omega chronographs. One has a column wheel actuation and the other has a cam actuation. I cannot tell the difference in pusher feel. They are both smooth and easy to activate. I think when you have higher grade movements the difference between the feel is neglibile. I've read this in other articles too.
Thanks for the comment! You may well be right about that, and obviously you have that in hand experience right there... I think if I had more access to higher grade movements I'd be able to comment more. Which cam actuated movement does your Omega have? And which one is the column wheel movement? Interested to know!
I have Speedmaster Mark II Co-axial with caliber 3330 which has a column wheel. I also have a Speedmaster Speedy Tuesday which has cal 1861 with a cam actuation. I really cannot tell the difference in the pusher feel. Here is a good article on it as well: www.woundforlife.com/2014/08/11/technical-notes-column-wheel-vs-cam-actuated-chronographs/. There are other articles about this on other well respected websites I've come across as well.
Thanks for that, it's a very useful reference article and I believe I did come across that in my reading also. This particular article does imply that cam-actuated chronographs do tend to have a "tougher pusher feel".
Perth WAtch then maybe it was another article. One I read and happen to agree with states if you were blindfolded and tried both you wouldn't know the difference. I thought this one said though there really isn't a difference between them other than their design.
Yeah this article explains the design differences but overall implied that for practical intents and purposes there is no real performance or reliability differences.
Thank you for this information I'm less concerned now about this issue. I will actually go with a cam over a column wheel for practical reasons of servicing costs is lower, and these movements seem to be Bulletproof.
Yep, the servicing (if required) should certainly be cheaper. And the 7750 and related movements are indeed very reliable!
I've got a question for Perth Watch or anyone else for that matter. I've just got the Alpha 'speedmaster' chronograph with display back. It's not perfect but phenomenal value. Question - what do you think of the security of the display back? When l tap my fingernail against it, it has a very light echo. I've never owned any other display back watches so wondered if anyone had any views on how it compared with other watches.
Do you mean security against water? The Alpha isn’t meant to be used for swimming anyway I believe. In any case, it’s a matter of quality and tolerances... the newest Omega SMP 300m has a display back which will of course perform to specs underwater. So does Oris Aquis divers. For the Alpha, I wouldn’t chance it in the pool...
Hi, thanks for this well explained video. I actually just received an Alpha Daytona homage with the Seagull ST1903 movement. I've noticed that the chrono seconds hand isn't running very smooth. It stutters, and it happens always at the same positions. I think I saw yours stuttering as well? I have let it run for more than an hour and it runs perfect on time. Could you explain this stuttering, pls. Is it normal? Thanks already for your reply. Best, Gert
Thanks for that Gert - very sharp of you to notice a stutter if so, honestly I haven't noticed this myself. I take it you are referring to the Seagull movement that had the stutter? If it is happening at the same place consistently then that would suggest to me that there is an imperfection in the gearing at that point, causing a visible stutter. Apart from aesthetic problems, it probably doesn't affect the function of the watch overall. Hope that helps! Ivan.
hey, many thanks for the quick reply. I did a second test and the stutter is still there, but in total time it run perfect during a 4hr test. (1 second faster) Strange, but nothing to worry about, it seems. aesthetic not pleasant, but the chrono and the the time is very accurate. For the price (140 euro) I 'm not complaining. And its a beautiful watch. I 've just saved 15.000 euros for the same thing... ;-)
Haha good to hear that! :)
I have a flieger made with a st1901 that I got for under 200$ on ebay and the second hands is smooth. It seems to be a variation from sample to sample about how smooth the second hand is running. If you can compare it with another alpha at the store it would be helpful to see if it's specific to your watch.
Nope, I can't compare because I bought the watch online.
There are the Poljot (Sekonda) 3017 column wheel and the 3133 Strela cam lever chronographs too. Perhaps you could discuss those in the future.
Nice, would love to take a look but it all depends on what I happen to get my hands on :)
Excelente video. Obrigado
Thanks :)
great info for us watch addicts. i love the history of the 7750 in that it was almost discarded (lost) during the headlong rush to quartz, but as the story goes someone put it away like a seed for the future. the "wobbler" as its sometimes called has a distinct feeling of being out of balance ( a beautiful distinction) when its wound by swinging it back and forth. it's on my list to acquire but i don't expect to find one that's affordable having been spoiled by prices i remember eons ago! to think this model and design parameters/engineering specs were almost thrown away is food for thought. still have my wide ties!
Thanks for sharing that Greg, appreciate hearing those insights! What would you say is an affordable price for a 7750 watch? There are ones available for under $1k last I checked...
i have seen some new models in the fifteen hundred dollar range discounted down below six hundred, but although "affordable" , this is still a tough sell to me since except for the movement the rest of the watch is ho-hum. i have seen some 7750 powered watches that don't use the full potential (fewer complications) that have a very satisfying simplicity, but these have been in the several thousands of $'s. i guess for me hunting for a particular piece may be as satisfying as finally dropping the hammer.....
Well shared thoughts - I can appreciate the joy of hunting for a particular piece at the right price. Good luck to you! :)
Omg. Both look stunningly gorgeous.
Haha thanks for that Harvard... I think movements are a marvel considering how much expertise and engineering is crammed into the square inch that we see. Decorations & aesthetics considerations take it the next level up!
Do you still have both watches? If so how do the two display back glasses compare? The Alpha one seems very light and flimsy like it might break easily. When l tap it with my finger l get this very light echo. It would be interesting to see what you think of the display glass of the Oris.
I don't have the Alpha anymore - didn't we discuss this issue recently in the comments on my Alpha review?
Yes we discussed it but l didn't ask you at the time to compare it to the Oris.
I think what l really need to do is see some of these other display back watches for myself that way I'll be able to make a comparison.
What do you think about watches with a Asia 7750 clone?? Seen a lovely watch yesterday but are these as good as the ST19 chrono's??
Not sure man, I’ve never dealt with one
Hi Perth watch l was referring more to the strength of the case back, what material is it, is it likely to break easily. As l say if you tap it lightly with your fingernail it has a very light sound as if the transparent material is very thin.
It’s mineral glass most likely... the hollowness is more to do with the fixation got the steel rather than the glass itself.
Have you had a look at the Russian 3133 chronograph? I heard it's cam actuated and was wondering how it stacks against the 7750
Never had one of those - sounds interesting
@@PerthWAtch they're usually in various poljot or sturmanskie branded chronos, just received mine yesterday and it seems great so far
The Speedmaster that was originally tested by NASA for space flight had a caliber 321 in it, which is a column wheel caliber. The 1861 came many years later, after the era of the 861.
There is no difference in power consumption between vertical and horizontal clutch. The amount of power depends only on how long the main spring is relative to the oscillation of the balance wheel.
Interesting - thanks for sharing the thoughts.
I haven't had or had experience with the Valjoux 7750 chronograph, but it appears to have a 12 hour totalizing sub-dial, compared with just 30 minutes for that Sea-gull -- from a functional point of view that's a plus in favor of the 7750.
It's a little surprising that people place so little emphasis on the functional utility of a chronograph watch. I think even $85,000+ chronographs from Patek, VC, or Lange have only 30 minute sub dials. For close to $100K, one would think that these luminaries of horology might be willing to bother themselves enough to make a chronograph that can time something that lasts longer than 1/2 an hour!
Oh yes absolutely agree that from a functional point of view the 7750 here is superior to the Seagull I showed. BUT... that was not what I was discussing. Those high horology companies do make more functional chronographs I believe, but they also do make more basic short time limit ones which perhaps are more for show than function. In any case, you can easily find column wheel vertical clutch chronographs with the same time ranges as this Valjoux... see my Chronomat review for instance :)
Thanks.
A hard concept to explain.
How do you think I did?
@@PerthWAtch very well! It's all a lot clearer to me now. I had the vaguest insight before.
The Seagull st19 has caused quite a stir in the watch world, more and more microbrands are using them.
It was the 1963 that did it.
With nearly 60 years in the buildup one might say it’s a very very slow stir :)
@@PerthWAtch I meant the reissue more recently when everyone on RUclips was all over it
If I planned to use intensively a mechanical chronograph, I would buy it with column wheel. Their long term reliability is superior.
Are they? The info I found suggests there is little real difference...
I'd be curious to see your sources because, it's far easier to prove that column wheel is actually more fragile.
We have a very good overview over decades with two chrono movements : the 3017 and the 3133, both soviet / russian made movements.
3133 has no colum wheel, and is notoriously extremely reliable and robust. It is thoroughly used and studied by the russian watch community since decades and has deserved that reputation. Its column wheel counterpart, shows much more frequent reliability issues on the long run. It's tricky to buy one for that reason, because they're all old ( unlike the 3133 produced until 2012 ) and they more often suffer from issues than a 3133 of the same age.
So really, we can make a point about the more comfortable use of the colum wheel, yes, but that smoothness can not indicate a more reliable machine. As always, a more complex machine is more prone to failure, and column wheel is more complex.
And what about SW500? Is that a column wheel or cam lever?
The SW500 is effectively a clone of the ETA 7750... it's a cam lever chronograph.
Perth WAtch Thanks for your kind reply.
I don't believe that Oris is an Aquis. I think these were pre-Aquis and sold alongside the older TT1 divers.
Yeah I think it’s a Titan Chronograph
The Oris in NOT an Aquis, its called Oris Divers Titan Chronograph....
Thanks for the clarification - this video has been up I don't know how long and you are the first who has pointed this out!
vertical clutch is much better and smoother. Horizontal clutch you can see more action in the display back.
Some people say it’s “much better” but when you get them to prove it by blindfold they can’t tell the difference.
@@PerthWAtch agree. It’s Judy a visual thing. It’s it’s a solid case-back then it does not make a difference.
The Valjoux 7750 is tiny. Only 13.25 ligne. That's why the case back looks so stupid on 40+mm watches.
You mean exhibition case backs of course. I would say that's the case even on 40mm watches it would seem... and it's not the only movement which gives this "effect". That's a potential price to pay when wanting to use a display case back.
@@PerthWAtch Clear case backs on 6497/6498 hand wound movements, as well as many house movements, are more proportional and look much better. The 7750 and SW500, being "one size fits all", look too small.
Yeah agreed, those in house movements fill the case much more nicely for sure.