Sydney here. I just watched both videos and agree with nearly all points in both videos except the ticketing system. The pricing in Victoria sounds more straightforward; however, if someone from Brisbane visits Sydney, they can get around by tapping their credit card without needing an Opal card. As far as I know, Melbourne requires a Myki card. I have spare myki cards, metro cards, and go cards in my spare wallet, all with dribs and drabs of credit. I hate that.
As someone from Melbourne, something I do appreciate about Sydney's trams is that their accessibility is much better. Melbourne still has a ton of stops without platforms and much of the fleet are older trams with high floors.
America seems to have a pretty decent public transport system with places like the Big Apple having some of the most extensive train systems out there. Also other smaller cities have an interesting take on light rail. Here, outside Melbourne there is nothing but infrequent buses that run hourly at best.
@@m31tdown I've been to pretty much every major city in the US (across 44 states). I would say if I had to rank all the US and Australia's public transport systems in one list together, Melbourne & Sydney would easily be in the Top 4. Only NYC is objectively better, while Chicago is roughly equivalent to Melbourne & Sydney. Nowhere else is even close. US cities having 2-3 light rail lines with about 30-40 stations that mostly only cover the "city proper" just doesn't compare to having 16 suburban rail lines with 220+ stations, and that's the case in so many US metro areas, even giant metro areas like Dallas-Fort Worth which have almost double the population of metro Melbourne or Sydney.
I don't like time based ticketing systems. What if an appointment, or delay in transport mode, or other misadventure, takes you outside of that time you selected? You'll need to pay again, and possibly more. Also Sydney does offer using your credit/debit card, or phone/smartwatch payment system to pay for a fare, which is better for visitors and/or once off uses.
Totally agree. Paying $5 for traveling a few stops doesn't make sense while Opal's system charges you according how far your travel. Also, I don't buy an idea that Melbourne is better because Myki is much less complicated than Sydney's. Pretty much the rest of the world uses distance-based fares.
@@74_pelicans Surely it's great that $5 takes you anywhere in the state (as long as the journey takes less than 2 hours) but isn't it ridiculous when a tram ride from Melbourne Central to RMIT costs the same as a train from Southern Cross to Ballarat? Sydney has a daily/weekly capped fare while Melbourne charges you the same regardless of distance.
@@mangoman178 plus Melbourne's geography doesn't really lend to a ferry network for public transport. Unless of course we were to suddenly have a few cross-bay services which would almost certainly require car ferries.
@@ourresidentcockney8776 We do have a cross bay passenger service! To Port Arlington, & to Geelong, from Docklands It's private operator but (it was before April 2023) almost same price as day Sat/Sun adult fare or weekday concession on Vline. As PT is now $10 max all day to anywhere, the one way full adult fare is now dearer at $20 (off peak)/$22 ($18 Concession). But I did work out before 2023 I could get to Geelong for about same price as V-line. Now at $20/$22 it's twice as much as the new PT cap, but there's a fully licenced bar & food. (A multipass on the ferry reduces 1 way to equivalent $13.50 per trip. Why would cross-bay in Melb need to have car ferries?; Sydney Harbour doesn't have any except for 1 punt car ferry (18 cars limit) in Paramatta River just outside Sydney Harbour "proper". It can almost as long to drive from some parts of Sydney Harbour/Paramatta River system, as does as from Sorrento to Queenscliff & of course there is car ferry for that anyway.
I’ve been looking into what Melbourne could do with a ferry network. We currently have a lot of private providers, but I think they’d need to be incorporated into one payment platform, so you could pay with myki/credit card like other pt. Next improvements would be encouraging more service, synchronised timetables and stopping patterns, and accessible Ferry stops. There are useful ferries, but only if you want to take the direct route they offer, so better integrating with train & tram stops would be great! - Smaller boats are used for Williamstown, Spotswood, Port Melbourne (Westgate & Station Pier), Maribyrnong River, Docklands, Yarra River CBD (multiple locations), and St Kilda. There’s also more river stops, but not sure how useful they are. -Medium sized boats go to Geelong, Portarlington, Williamstown, Docklands, and various locations around the bay. -Big boats are used for Queenscliff - Sorrento and can go to Station Pier. - Giant boats like Spirit of Tasmania and future cruise boats can go to Corio. We could inexpensively incorporate private providers into the network, similarly to busses, by adding their timetables and payments to PTV. Good service would require supplying payment machines, accessible ferry terminals, and some subsidies to provide frequent and consistent service early on. I believe the Westgate Punt and Port Phillip Ferries already receive some small subsidies.
For me traveling from Melbourne to Central cost. The whole Sydney airport to central station then to mid central cost is muuuuch easier than from Tulla to Spencer then out to the suburbs. In Sydney it all kind of just flows where down here it feels so much more stop start. I guess that's just a feeling though.
They mean you can tap on with a contactless credit/debit card or phone on Sydney’s network. Both networks have a “tap” card, Opal for Sydney and myki for Melbourne but being able to use the system with a bank card is great for tourists and those without an Opal. Prices and benefits are the same
@@lavomavo2207 I live in regional NSW, in an area with no public transport, and as such I don;t have an Opal card. I recently had cause to travel by train from Central to Lithgow, and it was great that all I needed to do was tap my CC and be done with it, not needing to find and purchase, and top up, a card, for this one time use.
As someone who has extensively used both networks, overall Sydney's is better when looking at all categories in a more macro view. Within CBD melbourne smokes Sydney with the trams and city layout, but as you start going out of the CBD sydney trains and bus networks are just a cut above. And whilst opal fares may be confusing as, being able to tap my bank card is lovely but with having auto top up on, the fare cost is almost inconsequential as it was just going to be paid anyway. Also surprised to see ZERO mention of the flippy backwardy forwardy seats on sydney trains, goated feature.
"flippy backwardy forwardy seats on sydney trains, goated feature". What??? Sydney introduced reversible seats in suburban trains in 1879 and Sydney people took to them like ducks to water. They are actually an American invention and fittingly first saw use in Sydney's American end-platform cars. Transport 4 NSW has rightly been pilloried for introducing non-reversible seats in the "new" D series intercity trains; coming up with all sorts of excuses why they are fitted. These trains have been a public relations disaster, running 4 years behind schedule in their introduction and leaving the time-expired (but still well regarded) V sets in use. That's what happens when you design a train according to ideology instead of passengers' needs. You didn't say which city you are from, but when in Sydney check out which seats in the non-reversible seat Tangara sets fill first; it's ALWAYS the seats facing the direction of travel. BTW, London's trams had reversible seats from 1908 until the close of the System in 1952.
@@ktipuss thanks for the longass nothing reply providing me useless information about a fun feature I like, especially when group travelling. Also just a skill issue if you get motion sick sitting on the seat in non travel direction, Tangara is lame and I dislike travelling on it everytime
@@YoyoZee If you like the reversible seats, why did you call them "a goated feature"? And what's with the "longass" comment? Can I ask you if English is your second language and somehow you have picked up terms which don't make a lot of sense in the context?
And worst case is that the 'gap' to wait for rail services in Sydney late night is just 4 hours give or take during the week (midnight to 4am) or 2-3 hours weekends (1-1.30am to 4am). If you think about it, Melbourne's Night Network is only giving out an additional 2 to 3 services (Night Network runs hourly for trains, also only Flinders St is serviced, all other city stations close. I've been there only to find out the hard way!
While I disagree with many of the supposed "upsides" to Melbourne's system, I'm going to have to _strongly_ disagree with Point 5. While on paper having a grid makes a city easier to navigate, I found the penalty of constant multilane crossings extremely frustrating as a pedestrian when I travelled to Melbourne last year. In contrast, when walking along a Sydney road, you'll probably be walking along an "artery" road with a bunch of much smaller "capillary" roads coming off of it. This not only means crossings are smaller, but also that cars generally are moving a lot slower through them, and also they can go green more often. As a pedestrian, I very much dislike gridded cities and how dominant the car-roadspace is. And yet, even when driving, it's _still_ a massive pain as those roads aren't all bi-directional, so for our day trip out to more regional Victoria me and my friend wasted a good half hour just trying to figure out how to get the rental car to a parking spot near our AirBnB to pick up the rest of our travel mates!
It is so much nicer to have trams running down the street than buses. I live in Perth now, and buses are so much louder and polluting than trams, especially if you are on a busy road where multiple buses are all in traffic together. A gadget-bahn is now being tested (a trackless 'tram') connecting Scarborough to Stirling station - it would be better for us to put down rails and buy a few trams from the factory in Melbourne.
I wouldn't be too critical of Perth's network if I lived there. The only disappointment over there is the lack of night-life vibe in the CBD, which will hopefully come with time and population growth anyway. Otherwise, Perth's network is quite impressive for a city of its size and density that low. It's impressive enough for RM Transit to have made a video about it anyway.
This is very interesting. I have lived in Melbourne for about 6 months and just visited Sydney for the first time every this past weekend, and I felt immensly that the PT was much more impressive in Sydney. The trains and trams are much higher capacity and appeared to be more frequent than Melbourne, and importantly the ride was SOO much smoother! Also had my mind blown by the reversable seat orientation on the trains. And as a tourist, Sydney easily has a better payment system considering they take contactless card payment. However it’s interesting to hear all the point’s you are making as they highlight that as a resident I may not enjoy the system quite as much as I did as a tourist. I do however concur that the spaghetti road design is pretty unappealing.
You're lucky they just did a huge amount of work on the tracks a few months ago. The ride was getting a little bumpy on the express intercity trains (makes it a bit hard to use the onboard toilets lol) Also, I think the spaghetti road network is probably more suited to the geography, and apparently more efficient than a grid anyway
@closeben I somewhat disagree re better payment system in Sydney, & partially agree. Yes, can pay with credit card, but fare could be dearer for some* than if use Opal card. (believe it has to be credit company card, can't use just Eftpos). Sydney's Opal minimum top up at machines/counters is $20, tho card is free. Melbourne's Myki minimum top up at machines is just $1, but card is $7. So Sydney's Opal charges aren't convenient for international visitors, plus contactless is subject to exchange rates. Melbourne isn't so much either, but if don't already have Myki & need to do just 1 trip, it'll cost just $8. In Sydney, if don't already have an Opal & need to do just 1 trip, it'll cost $20. There's quite a number of people that don't have a credit card, & Sydney's charges seriously disadvantages some people. *It may also cost some International travelers more than it should. From Sydney Airport Adult Gate Pass for train is $17.00, or $16.68 when using an Opal Card or a contactless payment. Added to rail ticket cost, so to get from Syd Airport & spend a day traveling around city & adjacent you need to pay $37, before getting the train ($17 + $20 loaded to Opal card). From Melbourne/Tullamarine Airport & day in Melb city & adjacent it's $31 max. $21 if stay within CBD & Docklands & use just trams. Melb's cap, & also now Vic's cap, is $10 max per day/$5 concession. Sydney's cap is $16.80/$9.40 concession. Melbourne does have a sort of contactless option. Mobile Myki lets you create a virtual Myki card on an Android phone equipped with Google Pay and NFC. It's not available for iphones tho. Once loaded, you can pay your fare by touching on and off with your phone. Melb re the maximum $10 day cost is winning, but however for $7 more I can travel on as many ferries as I want in a day (except the 'fast ferries') in Syd. Sydney wins re fare cap for seniors & pensioners as just $2.50 cap, but can only get card ('Opal Gold' card) by applying online, & if outside NSW have to complete a form plus upload scan or photocopy of seniors or pension card, 4 weeks prior ahead of when using. For regional NSW concession have to fill in another form. Melb offers the standard concession card for interstate seniors, so at $5 travel cap & with ease of getting immediately, from any staffed station, the $2.50 more is worth the much better convenience. & that $5 gets you anywhere in Vic, now. [Vic Seniors or concession myki is half price @ $3, Victorian Seniors/Pensions do get a free Myki when they're issued Victorian senior or pension card]. By the way, Melb is due to get contactless credit/debit card within couple years, with trials beginning next year in 2024, expanded during 2025, & fully operational by late 2025 or early 2026 at the latest.
@@CBM_Walks There's no extra charge for using contactless cards. International visitors who want to avoid volatile exchange rates will probably be using a prepaid card anyway.
@@staryoshi06 I later found isn't dearer for Standard Adult Fare/s. But contactless can only be used for that. While it's logical as to why, concession card holders have to pay full price if use contactless. Yeh, it's not much %, but 5% of Opals issued are concession plus about 2.5% are student concession Opals; plenty of students 18+ . I also realised why it was, effectively, dearer not to use an Opal. Tho fares were same for what could use contactless for, but couldn't use contactless/credit/debit for ferries till late 2017. & not on Sydney buses till Sept 2019 with last 5 Metropolitan regions online from Sept 23. (awesome that can use contactless on buses since tho, not that many tap & go systems offer that). Following is ancient history now (well before 2020 anyway lol) I remember trying to tap with credit card at a (suburban) Ferry Wharf as the Opal didn't have credit, & it wouldn't accept the credit card. There either wasn't a top-up machine or I didn't have $20 (or both). However they do you allow to pay (or did) when arriving at Circular Quay. They should take best of Sydney's fare & tap & go system, best of Melbourne's fare structure & combine. And give Canberra a decent system! lol. Would also be great if didn't need to get a different card (Opal, Myki, GoCard, when in a different city). Eastern States car e-tags can be used on any toll road in those states.
I think the key thing that I take away from having lived in Melbourne and visited Sydney alot is that whilst Melbourne seems to have a more expansive train network and better PT network in the CBD, it lacks urban interconnectivity and frequency compared to Sydney. Also the whole part of using a myki and not your own card is a shame. Granted, the SRL, Metro Tunnel 1 & 2, Airport rail, HCMTs, New myki system which will allow you to use your own card, new low floor tram rolling stock, as well as constant improvements to the Suburban rail network via duplication, removal of level crossings, as well as future extensions, makes me think that Melbourne is very much so looking to address these issues.
The trouble is all these things should have been done decades ago, and they are more expensive because it took so long. Many of these things we need asap not in 30 years. Also we really need ETCS, it will allow for much more frequent trains at higher speeds.
I wouldn't hold any breaths for a Metro Tunell 2. I don't believe anything has been said about it in the last 3 or so years. As much as I like the SRL concept, I honestly can't believe it's taking priority over not only the Metro 2, but also the Whyndam and Melton lines electrification.
I'm from Sydney - we had more trams than Melbourne once - then we got rid of every tram line - only to introduce trams / light rail - 😢 Kudos to Melbourne - your government had much more forward planning than Sydney / Melbourne has an amazing culture that Sydney doesn't - and I think Melbourne is on track to have a higher population than Sydney
It was obviously a mistake to remove many of the main tram corridors in Sydney, no question. They should have reorientated the line or put the central sections in tunnel like Frankfurt or Cologne did with a long-term vision to make full on city train lines. But for that Sydney buses and trams move as many people as Melbourne's buses and trams, and where Sydney really leaps ahead is the trains with 50% more train & Metro ridership in Sydney.
I live in downtown Sydney. 10 years of a lib gov who bought the cheapest garbage from overseas, buses with no suspension. Ferries that can't fit under a bridge and trains that are💩 and unsafe the unions went on strike. Don't ever believe the corp media when they trash the labor governments.. They don't work for the people but for the establishment and vested interests.
What we need to do is build a very fast train between Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne so that capital to capital takes under 4 hours and costs around $50 per person. Now, THAT would be serving the people as our politicians promise to do and never actually do.
When the under construction Sydney Metro and Parramatta light rail projects are open I think Sydney will pretty comfortably win this one as there will likely be a big round of bus reforms coming on the back of this which will push Sydney buses way beyond Melbourne's. If Sydney can close the gaps in the Metro & Train networks (Schofields-Tallawong, Western Sydney Airport-Glenfield, Carlingford-Epping, Bankstown-Liverpool) and get light rail down Parramatta Road I think it will take a LOT for Melbourne to catch up, the SRL will be a big step but there needs to be major bus reform and tram extensions/upgrades (improved speeds) plus electrification to Melton and Wydnham Vale. The 5km from city regions will be edged by Melbourne until Sydney cuts down on cars and gets more light rail and pedestrianised sections, plus a Metro line to Neutral Bay/Mosman/Waringah.
@@robert-brydson-1 what do you mean by "real estate they demolished which Melbourne kept"? What criteria are you using? Sydney has WAY higher public transport use and will probably increase its lead this year when Sydney Metro and Parramatta Light Rail open.
@@robert-brydson-1 they don't need to, Sydney has plans to build Metro which is faster and higher capacity. All of the main tramway corridors South of the harbour (Parramatta Road, Oxford Street, ANZAC Parade, City Road) do have plans for eventual return to Light Rail, might take a couple decades and money is a bit tight. Buses do and can do a better job on several of the former tram corridors anyway in many respects.
1) @1:12 that's not a fair comparison - Sydney *TRAINS* has 369km and 170 stations, Sydney's rail NETWORK includes Sydney Metro (36km & 11 stations 2 of which are interchanges so 9 additional stations) so a total of 405km & 179 stations compared to Melbourne with also 405km and 219 stations. Same kilometrage, Melbourne has closer station spacing which isn't necessarily an advantage. Let's also include both the projects that are currently already in testing and getting ready to open in both cities - the Metro Tunnel in Melbourne and the City & SW Metro Link in Sydney. Sydney will have an additional 30km and 8 new stations on the City & SW Metro link next year, of which Martin Place + Pitt St + Central + Sydenham are interchange stations so 4 additional stations to the network, bringing Sydney to 435km and 183 stations. Melbourne Metro Tunnel is 9km long and has 5 stations of which Town Hall and State Library are interchange stations so 3 additional stations to the network, bringing Melbourne to 414km and 222 stations. If we add the under-construction SRL East and ignore the two further Sydney Metro projects already under construction (West 24km & 8 additional non-interchange stations, Western Sydney Airport 23km & 5 additional non-interchange stations) Melbourne will have 440km and (with 2 additional stations) a total of 224 stations. Pretty close really. 2) The key really is: speed and frequency of express-running medium-distance trains but also what it allows you to do to inner-to-mid-range parts of the corridor. Because Sydney developed quad (4 tracks) all way out into middle and outer suburbs early on (up to St Marys on T1; up to Hurstville on T4; up to Revesby on T8; up to Rhodes plus another section from West Ryde to Epping on T9; and up to Belmore for separated freight on T3), express running on all main lines for outer-suburban, interurban and intercity trains is simple and easy. Whereas Melbourne only developed triple (3 tracks) into the middle suburbs - and even then only on 3 main lines (Frankstone line to Moorabin along with quad track from South Yarra to Caulfield; Lilydale/Belgrave line to Box Hill; Werribee line from Newport to Werribee). Track speeds within Metro Melbourne are limited to 80kmh where Sydney has many lines with decent track sections of up to 100-115kmh. What this all means is Sydney has regular and (relatively) fast express trains allowing you to get from places 20-30km away from the city like Sutherland, Blacktown, Revesby or Hornsby into the city consistently quicker than equivalent areas in Melbourne, with more flexibility to handle disruptions - and many of these journeys will be shortened further when Sydney Metro opens. But what this also allows Sydney to DO is split inner and outer sections of lines to run different services more suited to different parts of the city: on top of the conversion of the whole T3 to Metro, the inner sections of the T2 T4 T8 and T9 could potentially see a similar conversion to rapid transit with high-capacity high-frequency operations at all inner stops, with suburban inter-urban and intercity services focused purely on the middle and outer suburbs. Melbourne cannot do this without building new lines. 3) @6:18 Melbourne's trams really aren't that special in performance terms, it really is just the coverage and scale of the system. Of the 7 busiest routes in Melbourne (3, 11, 59, 75, 86, 96 and 109) only Route 96, a former heavy rail line, comes close to matching L2 & L3 in Sydney in terms of patronage/km or patronage/stop. None of the Melbourne lines can match Sydney L1 for average speeds, most averaging 15-18kmh with those shared traffic sections causing trams to get stuck in traffic and the schedule to be padded and unreliable, while not many stops have level boarding & disability access. There are also tonnes of missed connections between tram and train at the outer edges of the tram network - the whole tram network is in serious need of a modernization programme like the Level Crossing Removals. 4) Where Melbourne does have an advantage is coverage, there are no major areas of the city as poorly covered by heavy or light rail in Melbourne as in Sydney (Northern Beaches, SE suburbs, outer SW around Bonnyrigg and Wetherill Park) except perhaps Doncaster (which is planned to be linked with Suburban Rail Loop). Another advantage for Melbourne is being able to run its 3 main regional services (Ballarat, Bendigo and Geelong lines) on the one Regional Rail Link direct and at quite high speeds, whereas all Sydney's regional trains split up quite close to the city and have comparatively slow speeds, hence why NSW was doing planning on an entirely new High Speed Rail network to Newcastle, Wollongong, Canberra/Southern Highlands and Bathurst/Orange - which again would be difficult to implement without expensive city access lines to meet at Parramatta or Olympic Park.
Also can you compare Melbourne and Sydney trams, when one is free in the city. You need to pay in Sydney city, you don't need to in Melbourne. So how can you fairly track patrons?
@@ianneill1400 that might have been true in the boomer Generation, but this appears to be dying out and younger people want a Metro, the council also now Supports a Metro line after intial opposition. I Note too that youll notice Most of the Opposition to a Beaches Line is located in wealthier inner areas Like Mosman, Cremorne, Balgowlah nd Maly whereas outer areas who have to put up with shitty long Bus commutes like Brookvale, Dee Why and Narrabeen want Metro ASAP
@@BigBlueMan118 Plenty of friends there & they all are happy with Bus & last thing they want is Metro - I love metro & am near Bella Vista & would love to see one on the Nth Beaches but like the rich & powerful in Bondi Beach, they will keep it out! 😀🤣😂
I think something with both are forgetting, Sydney also does have night routes for certain routes to some areas. Take for exampla, the 333 that runs from Circular Key to Bondi, that also runs during the night, just with an N in the Route Number. And there is multiple other routes that also do the same thing outside of the regular Night Routes that run along the train lines when trains aren't running.
Omg that’s the thing that I dislike the most about Melbourne - that the city is just a grid. So boring. I love Sydney’s chaotic city centre roads. It just feels so much more organic.
I give it to Sydney overall. Frequency is king, and outside of the tram network, it is more or less nonexistent. Even the tram network has times, especially at night and early on Sundays, where even they don't have a "turn up and go" frequency.
Sydney, you can tap on and off with your credit card, and a shorter single trip per day is much cheaper in Sydney. Plus, Opal cards live for 9 years vs 2 years for Myki
As a Sydneysider, I used to um and ah about the merits of Sydney and Melbourne. But since hitting my late 20s I'm firmly in camp Sydney and would happily never visit Melbourne ever again.
Sadly it does pain me to say as Sydney's one does seem to be slightly better in frequency and decentralization... EVEN IF it Melbourninas are far closer to a train then Sydney siders However we have to end something back to them I guess... We have F1 GP, Australian open, grand final, Melbourne cup etc.. etc... LOL
Are Melbournites really closer to stations? Sydney has such intense residential development around its train station network, so would be interesting to see how many people live in each catchment.
I grew up in Sydney, have spend 11 years living overseas in Canada, UK, and Germany and the last five years in Melbourne. What can I say but congratulations to Sharath for being so diplomatic and agreeing that Melbourne has positives over Sydney in regard to public transport. I could list point by point where I disagree with Phil and detail why Sydney is superior in almost all aspects, but the clinger is the layout of Melbourne. Yes it is flat and well laid out in nice rectangular pattern but Phil, have you ever visited London, Paris, Rome or any of the INTERESTING cities of the world. They, like Sydney, have character. Sorry Phil, I just can't buy what you are saying but I understand that you have to try and find something good about Melbourne when you are comparing it to a global city like Sydney. What is Melbourne's great advantage over Sydney? That is easy, house prices and rents are cheaper and that makes a big difference for ordinary people.
How can one city be "global" and the other not when there's hardly more than a 5% difference in population size? In fact, take the Covid drama out of the equation and Melbourne was well on track to overtake Sydney by around 2030. And despite falling backwards, Melbourne is already back on track to again outpacing Sydney. Not that Melbourne is all that affordable itself admittedly, but there's nothing to be proud of being in a city with an overpriced housing market. In fact, the statistics say it all. Sydney has experienced a recent and possibly now permanent trend where there's more home-grown Sydneysiders moving out than there's other Australians moving in. It's dependent on overseas migration to keep propping it up. But that's the common trend for other big "global" cities across the globe so you can have that one all you like if you really want to qualify for "global" status that badly and to be part of the gang. Melbourne on the other hand of course experienced a very sharp and fleeting outflow of its own during Covid, but that's stopped now, and more and more of those people are returning.
@@eddielong8663 "Global" refers to city's status and international ranking and not to its population. If it was the latter then Mexico City would be a global city but it is anything but that. The Brand Finance City Index (UK) ranks Sydney in 5th position, as far as overall status, behind London, New York, Paris, and L.A.; a remarkable position given the competition. Melbourne has a very healthy standing of 16th position. Sydney is ranked No.1 as the best city to live in the world and Melbourne in 4th place; truly amazing given all of the developed cities in the world. We are very fortunate to live in Australia.
@@boitmecklyn4995 Agree. When I lived in Toronto from 1970-75, I was very impressed with the subway as it was a vast improvement on the antiquated Sydney system with its "red-rattler" trains. However, Sydney was improved dramatically over the last few decades, especially with its new automated metro network. Based on what they are building and promised to build after the last NSW State election, it all makes a great deal of sense. Toronto, on the other hand, boggles the mind and seems to be void of any rational thinking and common sense. Line 3 has been closed after only 38 years in service and another line being constructed to take its place. The Sheppard line 4 has been criticized by locals as "a subway to nowhere" or "white elephant." The line 5 Eglington Crosstown LRT is the one which really boggles the mind. Construction started in 2011 but there is still no completion date. The western half is underground so it has all the expense of a rapid transit subway, but the eastern half in above ground on the street and has all limitations of a light rail (tram). The Ontario line looks good on paper but it is too short. It should extend further into the NE to relieve pressure of lines 1 and 2.
clearly the trams are a win for us, but I reckon despite what you say about our train network being more extensive, sydney trains seem more interconnected (not all cbd orientated, more junctions of lines intersecting outside cbd) and a slightly better experience. Hopefully when our metro tunnel comes out, and later suburban rail, our train system will overtake Sydney's
except it doesn't on the first point. That just comes down to how things are counted. Melbourne's total is 998km's but Sydney has over 2,000km's and goes all the way to Kiama, Lithgow and Newcastle. The electric network moves over 1 million passengers a day and Melbourne's only does half of that.
It is only more extensive because the Old City Rail ceded a lot its network to the newly formed NSW Trans network. When a fair proportion of our Western Suburbs are served by V/Line with average DMU's when Sydney's is served Sydney Metro Victoria is waaaaay behind.
@@mjcats2011 what? Intercity services were always considered "intercity" even under CityRail. The only thing that changed was the entities responsible split; Sydney Trains for the city and NSW Trains for intercity - that doesn't change how extensive the network is. Nor would you really consider the intercity lines beyond the city limits in this video, nor do intercity trains somehow provide additional rail coverage of the city (they run on the same tracks).
Sydney has better trains and ferries. Melbourne has better trams. Buses are 50/50 but it largely depends on where you live, but I find the frequent electric and hybrid bus services to be enjoyable in Melbourne.
Sydney is a clear winner for me. I value trains > trams. Sydney wins hands down, no debate. Trams are also just inflexible buses 75% of the time when they share the road with cars in Melbourne. Frequency > total no. of stations. Melbourne frequency is horrendous. More no. of stations in Melbourne is irrelevant when the entire network's only interchanges are in the CBD. Most suburb-to-suburb trips are terribly long because of this. I know Suburban Rail Loop is coming but it's pretty damn dire right now. I'm also not out at 2am enough to worry about lack of early morning service. I value having the flexibility to use a credit card / phone to tap on, Sydney wins hands down. Myki is horrendous. I dislike the pricing in Melbourne, the prices are so criminal that there is no wonder virtually everyone I see is fare evading. Honestly, the one thing Melbourne has done right is the Free Tram Zone to give tourists the illusion of great transport. Under the hood it's pretty woeful.
Melbourne came fairly close to losing its trams, because Liberal Premier Henry Bolte disliked them. He couldn't though because Melbourne's trams were run by a corporation, not the State Government. Bolte did manage to remove trams from Bendigo and Ballarat as they were owned by the State Govt (The State Electricity Commission to be exact).
No mention of ferries? I dare say, Sydney would win, pants down on that one. Disagree about the flow of commuters on the Sydney double deckers. Aside from peak hour, it's usually not a problem, and even in peak, it's organised. Carrying twice the amount of passengers a Melbourne train does. Sydney has a dedicated train to the airport. And also to the new Western Sydney airport. Melbourne does not. Sydney is building a network of 'Metro' trains (way too late, better late than never). You did not mention or investigate the already built network. Agree. Melbourne trams are the gift that keep on giving. Why cities like Sydney gave up on them in the 1960s is beyond me. What a waste of infrastructure. And now, it's catch-up. Melbourne is built on a Georgian grid. I love Melbourne, but geographically, it's boring and flat. Sydney topographically is spectacular and requires different transportation needs, like ferries. You are comparing chalk and cheese. Sydney is an accidental city with many charming quirks. Melbourne is a more predictable and planned city - their are fewer surprises. Both are 'great' cities. Just different. I feel 'at home' in both. Interesting collaborative but not complete and somewhat prosaic and biased. 6/10. :)
No mention of the greater comfort flowing from more seats facing the direction of travel. Dwell time is an overstated issue in Australia's sprawling cities. In the peak where it matters, people amble onto their train at distant stations then tend to be going to the same city destination where they alight. The opportunities to change for another line before reaching the centre are rare by international standards.
It may be nice to look at the direction you're going but it's clearly safe to sit backwards going to where you're going because if you stop suddenly you're thrown out the seat people sitting backwards don't
@@Prieze868 Well at least you can choose to either more safe or comfort, and most of all you can choose to flip the chair if the passenger on the back attractive.
@@Prieze868 That's the most recent excuse that Transport 4 NSW cardiganmen have come up with for putting non-reversible seats in the "new" (4 years delayed) Intercity trains. If forward facing seats are so dangerous, why are half of the seats in these trains forward facing, and why are all the Waratah sets, including the latest being built as recently as 2021, fitted with reversible seats? If a train comes to a very sudden stop, those facing the direction of travel may be pushed into the back of the seat in front which, because it is reversible, is padded. Those with their back to the direction of travel may well be catapulted upward and hit their head on the ceiling.
Sydney trains system much better than Melbourne. I’m from Melbourne and have lived in Sydney for over 10 years. Sydney’s rail infrastructure much more advanced, tracks are good quality and frequency much better. Also no level crossings and the electrification extends intercity (Newcastle, Wollongong, Blue Mountains). Drawback for Sydney is that there are still stair access only at lots of stations (DDA issues). Melbourne stations all have ramp access. Overall, I’d say each system is as good as the other. Melbourne has an awesome tram network that Sydney can not replicate. My conclusion is that Melbourne needs to modernise its rail network, remove all level crossings, the work done so far is excellent. Skyrail throughout the network needs to be completed. And an airport link!
Good points but I think Sydney smashes ticketing compared to most cities and it's one of the few cities that will work out your fare based on how far you travel
Melbourne has the better public transport system within Melbourne metro area and to and in the regions. By the way Sharath, a tram network is a light grade/non graded light rail system.
As a "Sydneysighter" myself the tram one hits the hardest, considering Sydney used to have a larger tram network than Melbourne in its prime. 6:45 I remember former Prime Minister (and current ambassador to the USA) Kevin Rudd talking about this he said that Sydney was designed by a bunch of drunks. Also worth mentioning on the pro Melbourne side is the accessibility of major sport stadiums, MCG, AAMI Park and Docklands are all very close to major stations, meanwhile in Sydney the SCG requires an interchange at Central (the light rail only came into effect in December 2019) and to get to Sydney Olympic Park requires an interchange at Lidcombe, the very much under construction Sydney Metro West will help with the Olympic park issue but that wont be completed until 2030 at the earliest.
I loved Melbourne’s pedestrian crossing signalling system. A much better system for pedestrians (staying green 80%of time) than what we have in Sydney (only stays green for 50% of total time).
Sydney's green pedestrian signal time is much less than that. It can be just 10 seconds of green followed by 70 seconds of red. NSW's roads bureaucrats dislikes anything which gets in the way of cars.
I have been living in Germany, for almost 2 years, and used D-tikcet to visit almost each single city of Germany (over 40 different stadts) , some of them twice or trice or even more. I have lived in Leipzig, city of 570k people and visited Berlin 11 times with population of nearly 1.7 million, and used only and only Regional and Local trams and buses with the famous D-Ticket. I am planning for the second migration to Australia especially Melbourne Victoria, as many of my freinds suggest. the only think I am concerned is that ease of use of Public Transport be the same of somehow equivalent down under. I have heard that with no Car, it is impossible to live in Australia, however with the kind of videos like this, I am geting more of the Berlin vibe. Anybody with the actual experinece of living in europe and australia would help me a lot regardingthis dilemma. I know Duetsche Bahn is the joke of the forums in Germany with Verspatung and delays and cancellations and strikes, however it is verry easy to live only with Public transport here in Germany
In Victoria, Public transport is capped at a maximum of $10 for travel anywhere in the state in one day. If you have a concession it is $5 to travel anywhere in the state in a day.
pretty great compared to nsw where its 19$ cap per day mon-thur, 9$ cap fri-sun and 50$ cap weekly, halfed if youre a child or concession though if youre a senior/pension its a cap of 2.50$ per day which i tell you what was bloody amazing when i had one
@@vincentgrinn2665 The only problem with NSW is our government bloddy greedy.. We have 10 trip Max before, so you can Travel as little as 28 per week... Not to mention 2.5 unlimited everywhere in NSW on weekends.. Little by little our money waster government remove it..... Yeah both government as bad as another...
@@vincentgrinn2665 yeah Naha still pretty shit I use too have too okay $10 too go 5 stops to work and back every day through trains. Now in Sydney I’m paying $3 each way for my trip. I also don’t have too but an opal or myki card as I just use my Apple Watch too tap on. Can you guys in Melbourne use your credit or debit card yet? Still behind arnt you
Comparing topography, and then you focus on one square kilometre. There are multiple river systems that cut through Sydney making the burbs far more intersting than flat old Melbourne (with all it's railroad crossings), but I digress. It's all those valleys and hills that make greater Sydney infrasctructure a challenge. I'm saying this with a grain of salt in the spirit of the videos guys :) Which I really enjoyed, well done and thankyou both.
@cherazyzz And it still will fall behind Sydney's. Melbourne's transit will never ever catch up if they continually concentrate on massive infrastructure projects.
@@TrebleSketch like what I said that because our government is greedy as F, we used to have 10 trip limit, so you can pay as little as you travel and $2.5 weekend unlimited travel, free city bus.. Both our government throw that away...
What I've found better in Melbourne was more it's active transport and trams. Never had a big problem riding bicycles in Melbourne - thanks to it's grid network I had an easier time finding a quiet side street to bypass busier ones, and they've invested a lot in segregated cycling lanes too. I feel Sydney (even in the Inner West + CBD) still has a lot of catching up in that regard, thanks to its road network not being conductive to providing alternate routes. (Not putting cycling lanes along George Street - the one street that can access all of Sydney's CBD - was a mistake.) Frequencies of buses and trains, however, Sydney (or at least outside of the outer suburbs and Northern Beaches) wins by a good margin.
I think that you have missed something, you sort of touched on the topic though There's one thing that people like to do and that is to drive to the train station and park the car there... The problem I have found that that in Sydney compared to Melbourne is that in Melbourne, you point your car in the direction of the train station and drive straight there, whereas in Sydney I found that I have to head in the opposite direction for some distance before I can turn around and to get to where I want to go, in this case it was a train station, passing along the way the location where I originally started from.... I can't understand the logic behind it.... Obviously it's not the fault of the public transport system, the roads authority needs to fix this and to get rid of the exits on the right hand side of their British sounding motorways.... Imagine preparing to exit and suddenly realising that your exit is way over to your right! Especially if you are from somewhere else, now you are well on your way to who knows where! It's very daunting if you are from out of town. But there are plenty of people who, for the majority of their lives will only use public transport on rare occasions to get into Melbourne City and will drive to the train station, park the car there and take a train... It's just so easy to do.
Great videos here and on Sharath's channel. One thing I'll point out about the timetables - Sydney at least has real-time for buses while Melbourne does not (through AnyTrip/NextThere or the Google Maps). At least in Sydney when a service gets cancelled, most of the time we know [except for those uncommon sneaky "real time not available"]. I'd wish Melbourne and other cities can incorporate this, as in Australia especially we coordinate journeys based on the timing that public transport operates. Not as much a turn-up-and-go way.
Have to agree with the point about timetables at bus stops. NSW (not just Sydney) has much work to do on that. As for the bus corridors through Sydney CBD it's a mess by our current concept of living in Sydney. A lot of longstanding bus routes in Sydney are just former tram routes. Those tram routes would have been run through the CBD based on track alignment and possibly demographic. There would have been no consideration for people with mobility issues and in the late 1800's you really wouldn't have had another option.
Hi Philip, Great video. I was just watching Sharath's video and decided to come over here. I have been living in Melbourne since 1981 and prior to that, I lived in Sydney. Back in 1981, I found that Melbourne's public transport far surpassed that of Sydney. We almost had double deck trains here in Melbourne, but the order was cancelled in around 1992. I was lucky enough to ride the test double deck carriages here on a few occasions prior to them being withdrawn. Love the description of Sydney's octopus designed streets. Talking about bus stops, try catching a bus in Wagga NSW. There are no signs outside of the CBD and when asking a local, I was told, just go up there and it is near the third hole on the left!!! LOL. Amazingly enough, all the Wagga locals seem to know exactly where to wait, despite no signs. Melbourne badly needs good airport public transport links. One idea would be just to extend the Airport West tram line. Of course, an airport rail link would also be great and I believe that is in the planning stage along with other improvements to the rail lines. Anyway, wishing you all the very best. Rob in Melbourne Australia.
Melbourne needs to have belt lines like SRL to enable people to get to more places. It also needs to invest in the West while it has greenfield land available for development. Don’t wait until it’s overdeveloped and then try to put a new line in. The Sunbury trunk is already at Capacity. There should also be extensions to the tram network, with more frequent trams. I hope the next generation trams coming next year have a larger fleet. Block cars from some sections of the road so its tram only. E.g parts of Chapel St. Upgrade signalling to ETCS. Werribee and Sandringham and Sunbury is the perfect place to start. Improve connectivity between regional towns. The current V/Line tracks have too much bends and aren’t maintained enough. We should be able to travel directly from Geelong to Bendigo without going into Melbourne and back. Improve Buses. Bring Double Decker buses for longer routes and have more frequent buses in smaller precincts. 30 minutes for a bus is unacceptable. Have dedicated Bus/Taxi/Tram lanes in more places. It will encourage more ridership.
North-South coverage with trams is remarkably poor compared to how easy it would be to make it good. There are so many high traffic straight roads that go north to south that have bus routes, but no trams.
one thing that both of these videos has made me think about is, just how much information is reasonable to offload to an app or something like for those who have access to it, it shows you where the stops are, when transport comes and arrives, the fastest route there including transfers, the cost, everything you need. which also takes out a lot of confusion from stuff like melbournes mess of a cbd but at the same time if you rely too much on it then anyone without access is screwed
to be fair Tripview does everything mentioned but doesn't show cost (at least in Sydney, idk bout melb). The Sydney Opal app can show all its just a bit clunky to use, but you get a pretty decent idea on how expensive a trip will be for a regular commuter, and for visitors the cost is usually not as important as its just a "holiday expense"
@@YoyoZee oh yeah i didnt mean creating a new one, i meant there are already apps and sites for it even google maps does a good job of it just meant like is that an excuse for messy routes and poor signage
I’ve lived in both cities. They both have positives and negatives. In my view the overall better city to live in is Melbourne for a number of reasons. First and most importantly, Melbourne has a friendly atmosphere and culture. Sydney is the complete opposite. Secondly Sydney is an expensive place to live particularly with all its toll roads and congestion. Sydney certainly has the beautiful harbour, however beyond that space it’s very unattractive and grubby.
The Sydney double deckers are great for the longer routes - and they manage 4 minute headways despite the dwell time issue. But the single deck HCMTs woulld be great for the inner suburban routes - and they are made in Australia.
I've lived in Melbourne and although the tram network is extensive, it's definitely not a quick way of getting into the city. It's quite slow compared with the trains. Melbourne trains also have less carriages which means less people, more trains running and more congested lines?
Being Canberran and hearing Melbourne praised so much for the grid is absolutely sending me, grids are boring!!! If you think Sydney's bad, Canberra would likely give you an aneurysm.
was wondering when this video might be arriving, i commented a while back on transport vlogs video on the sydney airport that you guys should do a colab either with paul or Sharath and paul mentioned something was in the works.
Great video. Have often wondered which city's PT would hold up best under expert scrutiny. PS "AFL" is not a sport, it's a competition. Should've said "Aussie rules vs Rugby". Cheers and sorry for being a pedant
I am In Sydney, Well i'm not from Sydney, I was from Norway, i was born in Bergen in Norway. But Trams in Sydney are not going further to other places like sydney which use to have the Biggest Tram System. Then Melbourne Beat Sydney in the 1960s. But in Manchester where i went to before i came to Sydney, The Metrolink originally Convert Old Railways. Having a Light Rail, or Tram Line of Converting Old Railways that Close before Construction is very Easy and Doesn't take Long.
Anyone who thinks that Melbourne is anywhere near Sydney as regards to Public Transport is delusional. Just take PT to the airport. Sydney has a train to Kingsford Smith and will have one to Western Sydney in 2030. We in the other hand. Apart from the Private Skybus it is a train to Broadmeadows or a tram to Airport West then a bus which have poor frequencies, especially at the weekends.
Comparing Apples with oranges. The geographic difference for starters. The harbour and water crossings in Sydney the flatness of Melbourne suburbs, especially the west and north and the bay. These comparisons are pretty well useless, but if u want to muck abour with your delusions of which is better,.......
One thing you said wrong, as you took Switzerland with the double decker trains for the Intercity Trains, it came from the slow every stop serving commuter trains - They are all double stock, extensive since in the late 90's.
The one thing I liked when I visited Sydney vs Melbourne with ticketing is that I could just tap my credit or debit card. As a visitor it was so much easier than having to buy a card and not knowing how much money you should put on it.
You lost me when you said Myki beats out the convenience of using your credit card o pay for trips. We were in Melbourne 2 weeks ago and couldn't believe we had to buy a Myki and put a $10 block of credit on it. Myki is rancid. Oh and the Metro wasn't mentioned. Neither was the fact that Sydney will have two airport rail connections before Melbourne has its first.
Melbourne has better public transport to sporting/entertainment precincts. The MCG can be accessed via 6 direct lines and two stations as well as several tram stops. Sydney olympic park (currently) only has one line from the south and one station. Moore Park on the far east of Sydney only has light rail access.
Sydney definitely better in all aspects. 1. More space on public transport. More carrages. 2. Cheaper 3. You pay with credit card. Us Melbournians still use Myki.
@@74_pelicans The daily cap may be less. But the minimum is far higher, A single trip in Melbourne will cost you $5, In Sydney is could be as low as $2.24. For the average commuter and low usage patron Sydney is cheaper, and with a weekly cap of $50 in both cities frequent users it costs the same. It's really only a niche 4+ trips on a single day user that Sydney is more expensive.
To be fair Melbourne has the awful vline or regional train for suburbs that are still metro Melbourne like Donnybrook. Sydney keeps the outer suburbs as part of the same train line.
@@timothyteo4602 exactly. Got booming towns like Mount Barker, and there's not even a gord darn train service that runs between Adelaide and Mount Barker
I would have like a comparison of a Sydney service train vs Melbourne service train journey time to highlight how much longer the dwell times of a 2 level train add to a journey
I know Sydney versus Melbourne is an old rivalry but I think both could learn a little of how to do city transit from looking at Perth and how not to do regional public transport from looking at the rest of WA (or Tamworth where I now live). Another item you may want to look at is why you only need one E-Tag for all Australian toll roads but for every public transport system you need different stored value cards. As a result, I have 5 different cards with over $100 total balance paying 0% interest even though the public transport where I live is a cash only system.
@@74_pelicans you mean opal? Really? Most People use their phone or credit card this days... There is 0 benefits of using opal this days, unless like Graham say you need to access the concession benefit. Alot of Sydney school children don't even bother to pay for bus and trams anyway.
Not all, like the one in the video is just a small sign. Low frequency buses that go to semi-rural areas or car-centric neighbourhoods often have stops that aren’t even signed and if they are have a tiny sign or unofficial marking. A lot of the older operators had their own versions of signs so there are a few variations. It is getting better though and more and more bus stops are getting the official blue B signage which has all the info Melbournes have. Every bus stop in Melbourne and beyond has consistent and formal signage, even stops in rural areas and towns.
You almost had me.... but the fact is grids are bad are closely linked to US style car dominance. European cities have organic street patterns that are much more human friendly.
Actually good point, I think transport patronage proves this point, organic and TODs support transport use. I believe more people travel by train in Sydney alone than all the other transport modes (train, tram, and bus) in Melbourne combined. I think that still applies.
Sharath's video looked into public transport for major shopping malls. But which city provides the better public transport access to major hospitals and universities? Which hospitals or university campuses have the best and worse public transport access in each city? Hospitals are major employers often distant from CBDs that need to be staffed 24 hours a day and accommodate large numbers of patients and visitors. Universities have huge student numbers and require a decent sized workforce. They also accommodate visitors, guest lecturers and research participants. Some hospitals and universities have reasonable public transport access. Others are difficult and parking is a challenge. Interested in thoughts on this and ways this could be improved
For the top five of unis and hospitals Sydney Unis - 3 served by metro/train with one by light rail and the fifth having light rail open in the next month. Hospitals - 4 by train, one just outside of train catchment (RPA). Melbourne Unis - two are not serviced by train, two are serviced and one (Melb uni) is serviced by enough trams to make it light rail quality (though will have trains soon) Hospitals - all but one are serviced by train So seems Sydney easily wins on uni, but tie on hospitals.
I am so tired of this Melbourne Sydney rivalry and the childish my dad is better than your dad type comments accompanying everyone of these videos.Melbourne and Sydney both have wonderful qualities.As do Hobart,Darwin, Perth, Canberra, Brisbane and Adelaide.
This is about Public Transport. Sydney vs Melbourne and by every objective measure Sydney's win hands down. You know what I am tired of. People from Melbourne not accepting it and punting the nonsense that Melbourne's Public Transport is better when for e.g. our heavy rail system is nowhere near Sydney's. Oh to have Sydney's network of Sydney Trains and Metro. Melbourne's does not even come close. I have no love for Dan Andrews but what an absolute mess of a transport system he inherited from years of neglect from previous mainly ALP Governments who poured money into our freeway system and left the Public Transport system to rot. Yes we have a world class tram network. A tram network served mainly by high floor trams that should have been retired and made into razor blades long ago. At least Sydney's is served by modern low floor vehicles. But in the myopia of pressing ahead with mega projects such as the Suburban Rail Loop, the Government decided to spend $250 Million refurbishing old trams, instead of purchasing new low floor trams. As regards to the buses, if you do not live in the Smart Bus Corridors and there are some frequent bus routes outside smart bus, the network absolutely stinks. Most runs every 30 mins Mon-Fri and hourly on weekends. And just look at what Sydney is doing with their stations. Look at what they are doing at Redfern, at Central. Comparing Southern Cross and Flinders Street to Central is an insult to Central Station. Sorry but anyone who thinks that Melbourne has a better system needs their head read.
Sydney is city surrounded by water, so it's a little biased to leave out Sydney's extensive and and essential ferry service. Many people also use ferries for work commute too. Re ticketing, Sydney has had paywave/contactless for credit and debit cards for years. Rest of the country still hasn't rolled that out. Sydney also has quick easy frequent trains from the airport. No competition there. Brisbane also has an airport train. When is Melbourne getting one? Ridiculous that it doesnt already. Every bus stop i used whilst living in sydney for 12 years had a timetable. Regardless the transport app shows real time/tracked transport due at the stop. Yes the tram network is better in Melbourne. That's a no brainer.
"so it's a little biased to leave out Sydney's extensive and and essential ferry service" Melbourne only has 2 ferry services as a part of its public transport network, so there's really no point adding this in. those 2 ferry services are also just short shuttle routes, one that goes across the Yarra between Port Melbourne and Spotswood, and the other goes between Stony Point and Phillip Island with a stop at French Island "Re ticketing, Sydney has had paywave/contactless for credit and debit cards for years." that sure is convenient, but you don't know how much you're paying until you open your banking app a few days later to find that 30 dollars have been taken out of your account to pay those fares "Sydney also has quick easy frequent trains from the airport." quick easy frequent trains from the airport that are ridiculously overpriced "When is Melbourne getting one?" supposedly 2029, but I imagine it'll be done sooner than that. some early construction started a while ago "Regardless the transport app shows real time/tracked transport due at the stop." PTV app does this as well
Melbourne is never going to have a train to the Airport. Our Treasurer had given one of the biggest dummy spits I have seen from a Politician ever. The Airport link project is pathetic and the blame lies fairly and squarely on the state government. They knew of the deal bequeathed to the Airport by the Howard Government. What a waste of money getting a mediator in. The Airport holds all the cards and Premier Allan knows this. And the fact that massively over scoped the project by insisting on ridiculous overpasses at Albion when a simple at grade junction would suffice. $10-$13 Billion for 16 km above grade project of which 10kms already exist? And a 7 year lead time, for a service that runs every 10 minutes. Really? Just build the bloody station in the PT Bus Station behind T4. The only major that has been done is the ARTC rebuild 600 Metres of Dual Gauge Track West of Albion. And as for the Feds, what do they do? Instead of giving money to Victoria to complete useful infill projects like the Somerton Link and revitalising the Broad Gauge Freight so that Shepparton and Seymour Trains can be diverted away from the Broadmeadows corridor, they pour more money into the NE Link. And time and time again you get posts spouting all these stupid conspiracy theories as to why Melbourne does not have an airport line. The answer is because Victoria is absolutely useless in doing PT projects. Now that the Airport line is not going to completed if at all till 2033, why not provide decent Bus Services from Sunshine. It can be easily do by extending one of the Airport West Buses and just extending the span of hours and improving frequency. Or they can extend the 59 Tram.
only some, past a certain distance you need either a physical ticket or an online ticket. this map will help you if you need to specifically know when you'd need a ticket: www.victoriawalks.org.au/Assets/Images/VLine_Train_Coach_Map_contrast.jpg
@@HouseholdDog it is still the same price cap for paper vline tickets, and if you have one you can use it instead of a myki on any other service that day. Just have to pick it up the day before. It's a pain, but if you're travelling regional you're already planning in advance anyway.
Why does Melbourne have a “National Gallery”, “of Victoria” ? That makes no sense. Victoria is a latecomer, a Colony in 1851 I think, Melbourne came later. The Nation, Australia, came with Federation in 1901. There is little “National” about Melbourne and Victoria.
Melbourne was founded in 1835. The first part of the National Gallery of Victoria was built in 1874 and named as such in 1875. The art school was even earlier in 1867. I believe the idea at the time was that there would be "National Galleries" in each state - e.g "National Gallery of NSW", "National Gallery of SA", etc. but this didn't happen. Melbourne was also the capital of Australia from 1901 to 1927.
@@philipmallis Thanks for that info. By the way, Melbourne was never officially “the Capital of Australia”, it was the temporary home of the Federal Parliament before the First Parliament House was opened in Canberra by the Duke of York in 1927. Interesting, between 1835 and 1851, Melbourne was in the original New South Wales colony.
Hey! Make sure you check out Sharath's video over at Building Beautifully here: ruclips.net/video/FSOnKtQa-j8/видео.html
If you Melbournians please don't, it's a bloodbath down there.
Sydney here.
I just watched both videos and agree with nearly all points in both videos except the ticketing system.
The pricing in Victoria sounds more straightforward; however, if someone from Brisbane visits Sydney, they can get around by tapping their credit card without needing an Opal card. As far as I know, Melbourne requires a Myki card.
I have spare myki cards, metro cards, and go cards in my spare wallet, all with dribs and drabs of credit. I hate that.
@JJ-hu4zm I still find it mindblowing that the mobile myki cards expire. And the error message when that happens is confusing
As someone from Melbourne, something I do appreciate about Sydney's trams is that their accessibility is much better. Melbourne still has a ton of stops without platforms and much of the fleet are older trams with high floors.
I guess that's because Sydney's LRT is far newer while Melbourne still has its legacy tram system.
It still baffles me how much of a safety hazard Lonsdale St/Spencer St tram stop is. You're standing not even 1 meter gap from the approaching tram.
I love the high floor trams. They are quieter and smoother.
Sydney’s L1 Dulwich Hill line still requires the driver to deploy a ramp for wheelchair access. Only L2/3 meets DDA requirements.
@@kingcoong theyre upgrading the one at melbourne central ahead of the metro tunnels opening next year thought the rest need upgrades too
One thing to remember - both Sydney and Melbourne have public transport coverage and service frequency that are the envy of most cities in the US.
America seems to have a pretty decent public transport system with places like the Big Apple having some of the most extensive train systems out there. Also other smaller cities have an interesting take on light rail. Here, outside Melbourne there is nothing but infrequent buses that run hourly at best.
@@m31tdown I've been to pretty much every major city in the US (across 44 states). I would say if I had to rank all the US and Australia's public transport systems in one list together, Melbourne & Sydney would easily be in the Top 4. Only NYC is objectively better, while Chicago is roughly equivalent to Melbourne & Sydney. Nowhere else is even close.
US cities having 2-3 light rail lines with about 30-40 stations that mostly only cover the "city proper" just doesn't compare to having 16 suburban rail lines with 220+ stations, and that's the case in so many US metro areas, even giant metro areas like Dallas-Fort Worth which have almost double the population of metro Melbourne or Sydney.
yall are so obsessed
I don't like time based ticketing systems. What if an appointment, or delay in transport mode, or other misadventure, takes you outside of that time you selected? You'll need to pay again, and possibly more. Also Sydney does offer using your credit/debit card, or phone/smartwatch payment system to pay for a fare, which is better for visitors and/or once off uses.
Totally agree. Paying $5 for traveling a few stops doesn't make sense while Opal's system charges you according how far your travel. Also, I don't buy an idea that Melbourne is better because Myki is much less complicated than Sydney's. Pretty much the rest of the world uses distance-based fares.
@@nattapatboonI mean Sydney charges $3 to go one stop on a tram... Not too different to a $5 pass to go anywhere in Victoria
@@nattapatboon Myki is a rubbish overpriced smartcard system.
@@mjcats2011 if $10 a day to travel almost anywhere in the state is overpriced i dont know what isnt
@@74_pelicans Surely it's great that $5 takes you anywhere in the state (as long as the journey takes less than 2 hours) but isn't it ridiculous when a tram ride from Melbourne Central to RMIT costs the same as a train from Southern Cross to Ballarat? Sydney has a daily/weekly capped fare while Melbourne charges you the same regardless of distance.
Congratulations, you're the first person this millennium to speak positively about Myki
Sydney has the ferry network as part of the public transport network. It is sensational.
I don’t think it’s that useful for most people but it looks good!
@@mangoman178 Just look up the stats on trips...
@@mangoman178 plus Melbourne's geography doesn't really lend to a ferry network for public transport. Unless of course we were to suddenly have a few cross-bay services which would almost certainly require car ferries.
@@ourresidentcockney8776 We do have a cross bay passenger service!
To Port Arlington, & to Geelong, from Docklands
It's private operator but (it was before April 2023) almost same price as day Sat/Sun adult fare or weekday concession on Vline.
As PT is now $10 max all day to anywhere, the one way full adult fare is now dearer at $20 (off peak)/$22 ($18 Concession).
But I did work out before 2023 I could get to Geelong for about same price as V-line.
Now at $20/$22 it's twice as much as the new PT cap, but there's a fully licenced bar & food. (A multipass on the ferry reduces 1 way to equivalent $13.50 per trip.
Why would cross-bay in Melb need to have car ferries?; Sydney Harbour doesn't have any except for 1 punt car ferry (18 cars limit) in Paramatta River just outside Sydney Harbour "proper". It can almost as long to drive from some parts of Sydney Harbour/Paramatta River system, as does as from Sorrento to Queenscliff & of course there is car ferry for that anyway.
I’ve been looking into what Melbourne could do with a ferry network. We currently have a lot of private providers, but I think they’d need to be incorporated into one payment platform, so you could pay with myki/credit card like other pt. Next improvements would be encouraging more service, synchronised timetables and stopping patterns, and accessible Ferry stops. There are useful ferries, but only if you want to take the direct route they offer, so better integrating with train & tram stops would be great!
- Smaller boats are used for Williamstown, Spotswood, Port Melbourne (Westgate & Station Pier), Maribyrnong River, Docklands, Yarra River CBD (multiple locations), and St Kilda. There’s also more river stops, but not sure how useful they are.
-Medium sized boats go to Geelong, Portarlington, Williamstown, Docklands, and various locations around the bay.
-Big boats are used for Queenscliff - Sorrento and can go to Station Pier.
- Giant boats like Spirit of Tasmania and future cruise boats can go to Corio.
We could inexpensively incorporate private providers into the network, similarly to busses, by adding their timetables and payments to PTV. Good service would require supplying payment machines, accessible ferry terminals, and some subsidies to provide frequent and consistent service early on. I believe the Westgate Punt and Port Phillip Ferries already receive some small subsidies.
For me traveling from Melbourne to Central cost. The whole Sydney airport to central station then to mid central cost is muuuuch easier than from Tulla to Spencer then out to the suburbs. In Sydney it all kind of just flows where down here it feels so much more stop start. I guess that's just a feeling though.
The point about Opal/contactless fares is that it doesn't matter if it's complicated... you get the best fare automatically.
& if you are a senior, its $2.50 for everything!!
Sydney wins ticketing, with contactless
I went to Melbourne a few years ago and I am reasonably sure I got a tap card to use the light rails outside CBD? Did they change policy recently?
They mean you can tap on with a contactless credit/debit card or phone on Sydney’s network. Both networks have a “tap” card, Opal for Sydney and myki for Melbourne but being able to use the system with a bank card is great for tourists and those without an Opal. Prices and benefits are the same
@@lavomavo2207 Except for seniors.
@@lavomavo2207 I live in regional NSW, in an area with no public transport, and as such I don;t have an Opal card. I recently had cause to travel by train from Central to Lithgow, and it was great that all I needed to do was tap my CC and be done with it, not needing to find and purchase, and top up, a card, for this one time use.
Yes. Even Brisbane is about to go contactless payment.
6:13 Thank you Sharath! I did wonder what the difference was between trams and light rail, but I guess I've just been too lazy to google it.
I just googled it after watching this and yes, that and light rail also has higher capacity and speed
As someone who has extensively used both networks, overall Sydney's is better when looking at all categories in a more macro view.
Within CBD melbourne smokes Sydney with the trams and city layout, but as you start going out of the CBD sydney trains and bus networks are just a cut above.
And whilst opal fares may be confusing as, being able to tap my bank card is lovely but with having auto top up on, the fare cost is almost inconsequential as it was just going to be paid anyway.
Also surprised to see ZERO mention of the flippy backwardy forwardy seats on sydney trains, goated feature.
Sydney charges by distance travelled and not by zones that Melbourne does.
@@boitmecklyn4995yeah but there is a weekly cap of $50 so just said $50 aside for your public transport.
"flippy backwardy forwardy seats on sydney trains, goated feature". What???
Sydney introduced reversible seats in suburban trains in 1879 and Sydney people took to them like ducks to water. They are actually an American invention and fittingly first saw use in Sydney's American end-platform cars. Transport 4 NSW has rightly been pilloried for introducing non-reversible seats in the "new" D series intercity trains; coming up with all sorts of excuses why they are fitted. These trains have been a public relations disaster, running 4 years behind schedule in their introduction and leaving the time-expired (but still well regarded) V sets in use. That's what happens when you design a train according to ideology instead of passengers' needs.
You didn't say which city you are from, but when in Sydney check out which seats in the non-reversible seat Tangara sets fill first; it's ALWAYS the seats facing the direction of travel.
BTW, London's trams had reversible seats from 1908 until the close of the System in 1952.
@@ktipuss thanks for the longass nothing reply providing me useless information about a fun feature I like, especially when group travelling.
Also just a skill issue if you get motion sick sitting on the seat in non travel direction, Tangara is lame and I dislike travelling on it everytime
@@YoyoZee If you like the reversible seats, why did you call them "a goated feature"? And what's with the "longass" comment?
Can I ask you if English is your second language and somehow you have picked up terms which don't make a lot of sense in the context?
Sydney has numerous 24/7 bus services plus there are rail replacement buses after midnight every night.....every night.
And worst case is that the 'gap' to wait for rail services in Sydney late night is just 4 hours give or take during the week (midnight to 4am) or 2-3 hours weekends (1-1.30am to 4am). If you think about it, Melbourne's Night Network is only giving out an additional 2 to 3 services (Night Network runs hourly for trains, also only Flinders St is serviced, all other city stations close. I've been there only to find out the hard way!
While I disagree with many of the supposed "upsides" to Melbourne's system, I'm going to have to _strongly_ disagree with Point 5. While on paper having a grid makes a city easier to navigate, I found the penalty of constant multilane crossings extremely frustrating as a pedestrian when I travelled to Melbourne last year.
In contrast, when walking along a Sydney road, you'll probably be walking along an "artery" road with a bunch of much smaller "capillary" roads coming off of it. This not only means crossings are smaller, but also that cars generally are moving a lot slower through them, and also they can go green more often. As a pedestrian, I very much dislike gridded cities and how dominant the car-roadspace is. And yet, even when driving, it's _still_ a massive pain as those roads aren't all bi-directional, so for our day trip out to more regional Victoria me and my friend wasted a good half hour just trying to figure out how to get the rental car to a parking spot near our AirBnB to pick up the rest of our travel mates!
It is so much nicer to have trams running down the street than buses. I live in Perth now, and buses are so much louder and polluting than trams, especially if you are on a busy road where multiple buses are all in traffic together. A gadget-bahn is now being tested (a trackless 'tram') connecting Scarborough to Stirling station - it would be better for us to put down rails and buy a few trams from the factory in Melbourne.
Electric buses will soon fix some of the pollution and noise issues with diesel buses.
I wouldn't be too critical of Perth's network if I lived there. The only disappointment over there is the lack of night-life vibe in the CBD, which will hopefully come with time and population growth anyway. Otherwise, Perth's network is quite impressive for a city of its size and density that low. It's impressive enough for RM Transit to have made a video about it anyway.
This is very interesting. I have lived in Melbourne for about 6 months and just visited Sydney for the first time every this past weekend, and I felt immensly that the PT was much more impressive in Sydney. The trains and trams are much higher capacity and appeared to be more frequent than Melbourne, and importantly the ride was SOO much smoother! Also had my mind blown by the reversable seat orientation on the trains. And as a tourist, Sydney easily has a better payment system considering they take contactless card payment. However it’s interesting to hear all the point’s you are making as they highlight that as a resident I may not enjoy the system quite as much as I did as a tourist. I do however concur that the spaghetti road design is pretty unappealing.
You're lucky they just did a huge amount of work on the tracks a few months ago. The ride was getting a little bumpy on the express intercity trains (makes it a bit hard to use the onboard toilets lol)
Also, I think the spaghetti road network is probably more suited to the geography, and apparently more efficient than a grid anyway
@closeben I somewhat disagree re better payment system in Sydney, & partially agree. Yes, can pay with credit card, but fare could be dearer for some* than if use Opal card. (believe it has to be credit company card, can't use just Eftpos).
Sydney's Opal minimum top up at machines/counters is $20, tho card is free.
Melbourne's Myki minimum top up at machines is just $1, but card is $7.
So Sydney's Opal charges aren't convenient for international visitors, plus contactless is subject to exchange rates.
Melbourne isn't so much either, but if don't already have Myki & need to do just 1 trip, it'll cost just $8. In Sydney, if don't already have an Opal & need to do just 1 trip, it'll cost $20.
There's quite a number of people that don't have a credit card, & Sydney's charges seriously disadvantages some people.
*It may also cost some International travelers more than it should.
From Sydney Airport Adult Gate Pass for train is $17.00, or $16.68 when using an Opal Card or a contactless payment. Added to rail ticket cost, so to get from Syd Airport & spend a day traveling around city & adjacent you need to pay $37, before getting the train ($17 + $20 loaded to Opal card).
From Melbourne/Tullamarine Airport & day in Melb city & adjacent it's $31 max.
$21 if stay within CBD & Docklands & use just trams.
Melb's cap, & also now Vic's cap, is $10 max per day/$5 concession. Sydney's cap is $16.80/$9.40 concession.
Melbourne does have a sort of contactless option. Mobile Myki lets you create a virtual Myki card on an Android phone equipped with Google Pay and NFC. It's not available for iphones tho. Once loaded, you can pay your fare by touching on and off with your phone.
Melb re the maximum $10 day cost is winning, but however for $7 more I can travel on as many ferries as I want in a day (except the 'fast ferries') in Syd.
Sydney wins re fare cap for seniors & pensioners as just $2.50 cap, but can only get card ('Opal Gold' card) by applying online, & if outside NSW have to complete a form plus upload scan or photocopy of seniors or pension card, 4 weeks prior ahead of when using. For regional NSW concession have to fill in another form.
Melb offers the standard concession card for interstate seniors, so at $5 travel cap & with ease of getting immediately, from any staffed station, the $2.50 more is worth the much better convenience. & that $5 gets you anywhere in Vic, now.
[Vic Seniors or concession myki is half price @ $3, Victorian Seniors/Pensions do get a free Myki when they're issued Victorian senior or pension card].
By the way, Melb is due to get contactless credit/debit card within couple years, with trials beginning next year in 2024, expanded during 2025, & fully operational by late 2025 or early 2026 at the latest.
One thing the Sydney Trains system seems to have more of - actual staff on the stations!
@@CBM_Walks There's no extra charge for using contactless cards. International visitors who want to avoid volatile exchange rates will probably be using a prepaid card anyway.
@@staryoshi06 I later found isn't dearer for Standard Adult Fare/s. But contactless can only be used for that. While it's logical as to why, concession card holders have to pay full price if use contactless.
Yeh, it's not much %, but 5% of Opals issued are concession plus about 2.5% are student concession Opals; plenty of students 18+ .
I also realised why it was, effectively, dearer not to use an Opal. Tho fares were same for what could use contactless for, but couldn't use contactless/credit/debit for ferries till late 2017. & not on Sydney buses till Sept 2019 with last 5 Metropolitan regions online from Sept 23. (awesome that can use contactless on buses since tho, not that many tap & go systems offer that).
Following is ancient history now (well before 2020 anyway lol)
I remember trying to tap with credit card at a (suburban) Ferry Wharf as the Opal didn't have credit, & it wouldn't accept the credit card. There either wasn't a top-up machine or I didn't have $20 (or both). However they do you allow to pay (or did) when arriving at Circular Quay.
They should take best of Sydney's fare & tap & go system, best of Melbourne's fare structure & combine. And give Canberra a decent system! lol.
Would also be great if didn't need to get a different card (Opal, Myki, GoCard, when in a different city). Eastern States car e-tags can be used on any toll road in those states.
I think the key thing that I take away from having lived in Melbourne and visited Sydney alot is that whilst Melbourne seems to have a more expansive train network and better PT network in the CBD, it lacks urban interconnectivity and frequency compared to Sydney. Also the whole part of using a myki and not your own card is a shame. Granted, the SRL, Metro Tunnel 1 & 2, Airport rail, HCMTs, New myki system which will allow you to use your own card, new low floor tram rolling stock, as well as constant improvements to the Suburban rail network via duplication, removal of level crossings, as well as future extensions, makes me think that Melbourne is very much so looking to address these issues.
The trouble is all these things should have been done decades ago, and they are more expensive because it took so long.
Many of these things we need asap not in 30 years.
Also we really need ETCS, it will allow for much more frequent trains at higher speeds.
I wouldn't hold any breaths for a Metro Tunell 2. I don't believe anything has been said about it in the last 3 or so years. As much as I like the SRL concept, I honestly can't believe it's taking priority over not only the Metro 2, but also the Whyndam and Melton lines electrification.
@@Snoop_Dugg I 100% agree, the Lonie report destroyed much of the brilliance the octopus act created
@@eddielong8663 not only that but also the airport rail connection.
Each city has its pro's & cons. In some ways it's like comparing apples & oranges. Hi Sharath!
No it isn't Sydney's PT is far superior.
I'm from Sydney - we had more trams than Melbourne once - then we got rid of every tram line - only to introduce trams / light rail - 😢 Kudos to Melbourne - your government had much more forward planning than Sydney / Melbourne has an amazing culture that Sydney doesn't - and I think Melbourne is on track to have a higher population than Sydney
It just goes to show that the brains live in Melbourne.... Sydney... all hat, but no cattle!!
@@hypercomms2001 Our PT is nowhere near Sydney's when it comes to Buses and Trains.
It was obviously a mistake to remove many of the main tram corridors in Sydney, no question. They should have reorientated the line or put the central sections in tunnel like Frankfurt or Cologne did with a long-term vision to make full on city train lines. But for that Sydney buses and trams move as many people as Melbourne's buses and trams, and where Sydney really leaps ahead is the trains with 50% more train & Metro ridership in Sydney.
I live in downtown Sydney.
10 years of a lib gov who bought the cheapest garbage from overseas, buses with no suspension.
Ferries that can't fit under a bridge and trains that are💩 and unsafe the unions went on strike.
Don't ever believe the corp media when they trash the labor governments..
They don't work for the people but for the establishment and vested interests.
What we need to do is build a very fast train between Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne so that capital to capital takes under 4 hours and costs around $50 per person. Now, THAT would be serving the people as our politicians promise to do and never actually do.
When the under construction Sydney Metro and Parramatta light rail projects are open I think Sydney will pretty comfortably win this one as there will likely be a big round of bus reforms coming on the back of this which will push Sydney buses way beyond Melbourne's. If Sydney can close the gaps in the Metro & Train networks (Schofields-Tallawong, Western Sydney Airport-Glenfield, Carlingford-Epping, Bankstown-Liverpool) and get light rail down Parramatta Road I think it will take a LOT for Melbourne to catch up, the SRL will be a big step but there needs to be major bus reform and tram extensions/upgrades (improved speeds) plus electrification to Melton and Wydnham Vale. The 5km from city regions will be edged by Melbourne until Sydney cuts down on cars and gets more light rail and pedestrianised sections, plus a Metro line to Neutral Bay/Mosman/Waringah.
@@robert-brydson-1 what do you mean by "real estate they demolished which Melbourne kept"? What criteria are you using? Sydney has WAY higher public transport use and will probably increase its lead this year when Sydney Metro and Parramatta Light Rail open.
@@robert-brydson-1 they don't need to, Sydney has plans to build Metro which is faster and higher capacity. All of the main tramway corridors South of the harbour (Parramatta Road, Oxford Street, ANZAC Parade, City Road) do have plans for eventual return to Light Rail, might take a couple decades and money is a bit tight. Buses do and can do a better job on several of the former tram corridors anyway in many respects.
and all that time Melbourne is moving forward also @@BigBlueMan118
@@robert-brydson-1 Who cares? Sydney's Rail and Bus systems are far superior and they have a large ferry system.
LOL, the Sydney trolls are out in force. Constantly with this childish competition thing.
1) @1:12 that's not a fair comparison - Sydney *TRAINS* has 369km and 170 stations, Sydney's rail NETWORK includes Sydney Metro (36km & 11 stations 2 of which are interchanges so 9 additional stations) so a total of 405km & 179 stations compared to Melbourne with also 405km and 219 stations. Same kilometrage, Melbourne has closer station spacing which isn't necessarily an advantage. Let's also include both the projects that are currently already in testing and getting ready to open in both cities - the Metro Tunnel in Melbourne and the City & SW Metro Link in Sydney. Sydney will have an additional 30km and 8 new stations on the City & SW Metro link next year, of which Martin Place + Pitt St + Central + Sydenham are interchange stations so 4 additional stations to the network, bringing Sydney to 435km and 183 stations. Melbourne Metro Tunnel is 9km long and has 5 stations of which Town Hall and State Library are interchange stations so 3 additional stations to the network, bringing Melbourne to 414km and 222 stations. If we add the under-construction SRL East and ignore the two further Sydney Metro projects already under construction (West 24km & 8 additional non-interchange stations, Western Sydney Airport 23km & 5 additional non-interchange stations) Melbourne will have 440km and (with 2 additional stations) a total of 224 stations. Pretty close really.
2) The key really is: speed and frequency of express-running medium-distance trains but also what it allows you to do to inner-to-mid-range parts of the corridor. Because Sydney developed quad (4 tracks) all way out into middle and outer suburbs early on (up to St Marys on T1; up to Hurstville on T4; up to Revesby on T8; up to Rhodes plus another section from West Ryde to Epping on T9; and up to Belmore for separated freight on T3), express running on all main lines for outer-suburban, interurban and intercity trains is simple and easy. Whereas Melbourne only developed triple (3 tracks) into the middle suburbs - and even then only on 3 main lines (Frankstone line to Moorabin along with quad track from South Yarra to Caulfield; Lilydale/Belgrave line to Box Hill; Werribee line from Newport to Werribee). Track speeds within Metro Melbourne are limited to 80kmh where Sydney has many lines with decent track sections of up to 100-115kmh.
What this all means is Sydney has regular and (relatively) fast express trains allowing you to get from places 20-30km away from the city like Sutherland, Blacktown, Revesby or Hornsby into the city consistently quicker than equivalent areas in Melbourne, with more flexibility to handle disruptions - and many of these journeys will be shortened further when Sydney Metro opens. But what this also allows Sydney to DO is split inner and outer sections of lines to run different services more suited to different parts of the city: on top of the conversion of the whole T3 to Metro, the inner sections of the T2 T4 T8 and T9 could potentially see a similar conversion to rapid transit with high-capacity high-frequency operations at all inner stops, with suburban inter-urban and intercity services focused purely on the middle and outer suburbs. Melbourne cannot do this without building new lines.
3) @6:18 Melbourne's trams really aren't that special in performance terms, it really is just the coverage and scale of the system. Of the 7 busiest routes in Melbourne (3, 11, 59, 75, 86, 96 and 109) only Route 96, a former heavy rail line, comes close to matching L2 & L3 in Sydney in terms of patronage/km or patronage/stop. None of the Melbourne lines can match Sydney L1 for average speeds, most averaging 15-18kmh with those shared traffic sections causing trams to get stuck in traffic and the schedule to be padded and unreliable, while not many stops have level boarding & disability access. There are also tonnes of missed connections between tram and train at the outer edges of the tram network - the whole tram network is in serious need of a modernization programme like the Level Crossing Removals.
4) Where Melbourne does have an advantage is coverage, there are no major areas of the city as poorly covered by heavy or light rail in Melbourne as in Sydney (Northern Beaches, SE suburbs, outer SW around Bonnyrigg and Wetherill Park) except perhaps Doncaster (which is planned to be linked with Suburban Rail Loop). Another advantage for Melbourne is being able to run its 3 main regional services (Ballarat, Bendigo and Geelong lines) on the one Regional Rail Link direct and at quite high speeds, whereas all Sydney's regional trains split up quite close to the city and have comparatively slow speeds, hence why NSW was doing planning on an entirely new High Speed Rail network to Newcastle, Wollongong, Canberra/Southern Highlands and Bathurst/Orange - which again would be difficult to implement without expensive city access lines to meet at Parramatta or Olympic Park.
Where did you get the 80km limit from? It's up to 130km. 115km in most sections where you can reach that speed while delivering a stopping service
Also can you compare Melbourne and Sydney trams, when one is free in the city. You need to pay in Sydney city, you don't need to in Melbourne. So how can you fairly track patrons?
talk to anyone in the Northern beaches & SE Suburbs - they have a great bus service & don't want rail as "it will bring in the RifRaf" !!!
@@ianneill1400 that might have been true in the boomer Generation, but this appears to be dying out and younger people want a Metro, the council also now Supports a Metro line after intial opposition.
I Note too that youll notice Most of the Opposition to a Beaches Line is located in wealthier inner areas Like Mosman, Cremorne, Balgowlah nd Maly whereas outer areas who have to put up with shitty long Bus commutes like Brookvale, Dee Why and Narrabeen want Metro ASAP
@@BigBlueMan118 Plenty of friends there & they all are happy with Bus & last thing they want is Metro - I love metro & am near Bella Vista & would love to see one on the Nth Beaches but like the rich & powerful in Bondi Beach, they will keep it out! 😀🤣😂
I think something with both are forgetting, Sydney also does have night routes for certain routes to some areas. Take for exampla, the 333 that runs from Circular Key to Bondi, that also runs during the night, just with an N in the Route Number. And there is multiple other routes that also do the same thing outside of the regular Night Routes that run along the train lines when trains aren't running.
Omg that’s the thing that I dislike the most about Melbourne - that the city is just a grid. So boring. I love Sydney’s chaotic city centre roads. It just feels so much more organic.
I give it to Sydney overall. Frequency is king, and outside of the tram network, it is more or less nonexistent. Even the tram network has times, especially at night and early on Sundays, where even they don't have a "turn up and go" frequency.
Nice colab. Well done guys :-)
Sydney, you can tap on and off with your credit card, and a shorter single trip per day is much cheaper in Sydney. Plus, Opal cards live for 9 years vs 2 years for Myki
As a Sydneysider, I used to um and ah about the merits of Sydney and Melbourne. But since hitting my late 20s I'm firmly in camp Sydney and would happily never visit Melbourne ever again.
Sadly it does pain me to say as Sydney's one does seem to be slightly better in frequency and decentralization... EVEN IF it Melbourninas are far closer to a train then Sydney siders
However we have to end something back to them I guess... We have F1 GP, Australian open, grand final, Melbourne cup etc.. etc... LOL
Are Melbournites really closer to stations? Sydney has such intense residential development around its train station network, so would be interesting to see how many people live in each catchment.
Don't worry, we can live wthout the circuses.
@@tobyb6248 Go to 1:29 into the video and this video is well researched as matter of fact they both are...
I grew up in Sydney, have spend 11 years living overseas in Canada, UK, and Germany and the last five years in Melbourne. What can I say but congratulations to Sharath for being so diplomatic and agreeing that Melbourne has positives over Sydney in regard to public transport. I could list point by point where I disagree with Phil and detail why Sydney is superior in almost all aspects, but the clinger is the layout of Melbourne. Yes it is flat and well laid out in nice rectangular pattern but Phil, have you ever visited London, Paris, Rome or any of the INTERESTING cities of the world. They, like Sydney, have character. Sorry Phil, I just can't buy what you are saying but I understand that you have to try and find something good about Melbourne when you are comparing it to a global city like Sydney. What is Melbourne's great advantage over Sydney? That is easy, house prices and rents are cheaper and that makes a big difference for ordinary people.
I could never understand the TTC in Toronto.
How can one city be "global" and the other not when there's hardly more than a 5% difference in population size? In fact, take the Covid drama out of the equation and Melbourne was well on track to overtake Sydney by around 2030. And despite falling backwards, Melbourne is already back on track to again outpacing Sydney.
Not that Melbourne is all that affordable itself admittedly, but there's nothing to be proud of being in a city with an overpriced housing market. In fact, the statistics say it all. Sydney has experienced a recent and possibly now permanent trend where there's more home-grown Sydneysiders moving out than there's other Australians moving in. It's dependent on overseas migration to keep propping it up. But that's the common trend for other big "global" cities across the globe so you can have that one all you like if you really want to qualify for "global" status that badly and to be part of the gang. Melbourne on the other hand of course experienced a very sharp and fleeting outflow of its own during Covid, but that's stopped now, and more and more of those people are returning.
@@eddielong8663 "Global" refers to city's status and international ranking and not to its population. If it was the latter then Mexico City would be a global city but it is anything but that. The Brand Finance City Index (UK) ranks Sydney in 5th position, as far as overall status, behind London, New York, Paris, and L.A.; a remarkable position given the competition. Melbourne has a very healthy standing of 16th position. Sydney is ranked No.1 as the best city to live in the world and Melbourne in 4th place; truly amazing given all of the developed cities in the world. We are very fortunate to live in Australia.
@@boitmecklyn4995 Agree. When I lived in Toronto from 1970-75, I was very impressed with the subway as it was a vast improvement on the antiquated Sydney system with its "red-rattler" trains. However, Sydney was improved dramatically over the last few decades, especially with its new automated metro network. Based on what they are building and promised to build after the last NSW State election, it all makes a great deal of sense. Toronto, on the other hand, boggles the mind and seems to be void of any rational thinking and common sense. Line 3 has been closed after only 38 years in service and another line being constructed to take its place. The Sheppard line 4 has been criticized by locals as "a subway to nowhere" or "white elephant." The line 5 Eglington Crosstown LRT is the one which really boggles the mind. Construction started in 2011 but there is still no completion date. The western half is underground so it has all the expense of a rapid transit subway, but the eastern half in above ground on the street and has all limitations of a light rail (tram). The Ontario line looks good on paper but it is too short. It should extend further into the NE to relieve pressure of lines 1 and 2.
New york... but also congratulations on being the stereotype of a butthurt sydneysider stuck in the 1980s lmaoo
One clearly has a death wish!! Go Melbourne!
Yet Melbourne not only has the most extensive rail network, but the largest tram network….
clearly the trams are a win for us, but I reckon despite what you say about our train network being more extensive, sydney trains seem more interconnected (not all cbd orientated, more junctions of lines intersecting outside cbd) and a slightly better experience. Hopefully when our metro tunnel comes out, and later suburban rail, our train system will overtake Sydney's
except it doesn't on the first point. That just comes down to how things are counted. Melbourne's total is 998km's but Sydney has over 2,000km's and goes all the way to Kiama, Lithgow and Newcastle. The electric network moves over 1 million passengers a day and Melbourne's only does half of that.
It is only more extensive because the Old City Rail ceded a lot its network to the newly formed NSW Trans network. When a fair proportion of our Western Suburbs are served by V/Line with average DMU's when Sydney's is served Sydney Metro Victoria is waaaaay behind.
@@mjcats2011 what? Intercity services were always considered "intercity" even under CityRail. The only thing that changed was the entities responsible split; Sydney Trains for the city and NSW Trains for intercity - that doesn't change how extensive the network is. Nor would you really consider the intercity lines beyond the city limits in this video, nor do intercity trains somehow provide additional rail coverage of the city (they run on the same tracks).
@@ytlurker220 The City Rail network covered Newcastle Blue Mountains and Wollongong as well. Google it.
Sydney has better trains and ferries. Melbourne has better trams. Buses are 50/50 but it largely depends on where you live, but I find the frequent electric and hybrid bus services to be enjoyable in Melbourne.
Buses are 100% better in Sydney. It’s like comparing Melbourne trams to Sydney’s.
Frequent Bus services, where? Most bus routes in Melbourne outside of the Smart Bus is every 30 mins during weekdays and hourly on weekends.
Sydney is a clear winner for me.
I value trains > trams. Sydney wins hands down, no debate. Trams are also just inflexible buses 75% of the time when they share the road with cars in Melbourne.
Frequency > total no. of stations. Melbourne frequency is horrendous. More no. of stations in Melbourne is irrelevant when the entire network's only interchanges are in the CBD. Most suburb-to-suburb trips are terribly long because of this. I know Suburban Rail Loop is coming but it's pretty damn dire right now. I'm also not out at 2am enough to worry about lack of early morning service.
I value having the flexibility to use a credit card / phone to tap on, Sydney wins hands down. Myki is horrendous.
I dislike the pricing in Melbourne, the prices are so criminal that there is no wonder virtually everyone I see is fare evading.
Honestly, the one thing Melbourne has done right is the Free Tram Zone to give tourists the illusion of great transport. Under the hood it's pretty woeful.
Melbourne came fairly close to losing its trams, because Liberal Premier Henry Bolte disliked them. He couldn't though because Melbourne's trams were run by a corporation, not the State Government. Bolte did manage to remove trams from Bendigo and Ballarat as they were owned by the State Govt (The State Electricity Commission to be exact).
No mention of ferries? I dare say, Sydney would win, pants down on that one.
Disagree about the flow of commuters on the Sydney double deckers. Aside from peak hour, it's usually not a problem, and even in peak, it's organised. Carrying twice the amount of passengers a Melbourne train does.
Sydney has a dedicated train to the airport. And also to the new Western Sydney airport. Melbourne does not.
Sydney is building a network of 'Metro' trains (way too late, better late than never). You did not mention or investigate the already built network.
Agree. Melbourne trams are the gift that keep on giving. Why cities like Sydney gave up on them in the 1960s is beyond me. What a waste of infrastructure. And now, it's catch-up.
Melbourne is built on a Georgian grid. I love Melbourne, but geographically, it's boring and flat. Sydney topographically is spectacular and requires different transportation needs, like ferries. You are comparing chalk and cheese.
Sydney is an accidental city with many charming quirks. Melbourne is a more predictable and planned city - their are fewer surprises. Both are 'great' cities. Just different. I feel 'at home' in both.
Interesting collaborative but not complete and somewhat prosaic and biased. 6/10. :)
No mention of the greater comfort flowing from more seats facing the direction of travel. Dwell time is an overstated issue in Australia's sprawling cities. In the peak where it matters, people amble onto their train at distant stations then tend to be going to the same city destination where they alight. The opportunities to change for another line before reaching the centre are rare by international standards.
It may be nice to look at the direction you're going but it's clearly safe to sit backwards going to where you're going because if you stop suddenly you're thrown out the seat people sitting backwards don't
@listohan Comfort? You still get there just the same as everybody else!
@@Prieze868 Well at least you can choose to either more safe or comfort, and most of all you can choose to flip the chair if the passenger on the back attractive.
@@Prieze868 That thought does not seem to trouble airline passengers too much.
@@Prieze868 That's the most recent excuse that Transport 4 NSW cardiganmen have come up with for putting non-reversible seats in the "new" (4 years delayed) Intercity trains. If forward facing seats are so dangerous, why are half of the seats in these trains forward facing, and why are all the Waratah sets, including the latest being built as recently as 2021, fitted with reversible seats? If a train comes to a very sudden stop, those facing the direction of travel may be pushed into the back of the seat in front which, because it is reversible, is padded. Those with their back to the direction of travel may well be catapulted upward and hit their head on the ceiling.
Does melbourne have school opal cards.
Sydney trains system much better than Melbourne. I’m from Melbourne and have lived in Sydney for over 10 years.
Sydney’s rail infrastructure much more advanced, tracks are good quality and frequency much better. Also no level crossings and the electrification extends intercity (Newcastle, Wollongong, Blue Mountains). Drawback for Sydney is that there are still stair access only at lots of stations (DDA issues). Melbourne stations all have ramp access. Overall, I’d say each system is as good as the other. Melbourne has an awesome tram network that Sydney can not replicate. My conclusion is that Melbourne needs to modernise its rail network, remove all level crossings, the work done so far is excellent. Skyrail throughout the network needs to be completed. And an airport link!
Forgot the mention Flinders Street station, it’s a dump. Needs modernisation. Can be done with respect to heritage.
Heyington station is only accessible using stairs, but it's such a weird one anyway and it's mostly just a station for school children.
@@adammuggleton4107 Yep Flinders Street is truly disgusting.
Good points but I think Sydney smashes ticketing compared to most cities and it's one of the few cities that will work out your fare based on how far you travel
Melbourne has the better public transport system within Melbourne metro area and to and in the regions. By the way Sharath, a tram network is a light grade/non graded light rail system.
No it does not. What are you smoking?
@@mjcats2011 - What it does not?
@@chrismckellar9350 Our train network is nowhere near Sydney's and our Bus Network stinks.
As a "Sydneysighter" myself the tram one hits the hardest, considering Sydney used to have a larger tram network than Melbourne in its prime.
6:45 I remember former Prime Minister (and current ambassador to the USA) Kevin Rudd talking about this he said that Sydney was designed by a bunch of drunks.
Also worth mentioning on the pro Melbourne side is the accessibility of major sport stadiums, MCG, AAMI Park and Docklands are all very close to major stations, meanwhile in Sydney the SCG requires an interchange at Central (the light rail only came into effect in December 2019) and to get to Sydney Olympic Park requires an interchange at Lidcombe, the very much under construction Sydney Metro West will help with the Olympic park issue but that wont be completed until 2030 at the earliest.
There are direct trains between Sydney Olympic Park and Central during events
@@isaacfung622 there's also been direct services to Blacktown or Schofields during big events
Trams are ass though. The new metro lines >
I loved Melbourne’s pedestrian crossing signalling system. A much better system for pedestrians (staying green 80%of time) than what we have in Sydney (only stays green for 50% of total time).
Sydney's green pedestrian signal time is much less than that. It can be just 10 seconds of green followed by 70 seconds of red. NSW's roads bureaucrats dislikes anything which gets in the way of cars.
I have been living in Germany, for almost 2 years, and used D-tikcet to visit almost each single city of Germany (over 40 different stadts) , some of them twice or trice or even more. I have lived in Leipzig, city of 570k people and visited Berlin 11 times with population of nearly 1.7 million, and used only and only Regional and Local trams and buses with the famous D-Ticket. I am planning for the second migration to Australia especially Melbourne Victoria, as many of my freinds suggest. the only think I am concerned is that ease of use of Public Transport be the same of somehow equivalent down under. I have heard that with no Car, it is impossible to live in Australia, however with the kind of videos like this, I am geting more of the Berlin vibe. Anybody with the actual experinece of living in europe and australia would help me a lot regardingthis dilemma. I know Duetsche Bahn is the joke of the forums in Germany with Verspatung and delays and cancellations and strikes, however it is verry easy to live only with Public transport here in Germany
If you live in inner city Melbourne or City, it is fine to get around without a car.
In Victoria, Public transport is capped at a maximum of $10 for travel anywhere in the state in one day. If you have a concession it is $5 to travel anywhere in the state in a day.
pretty expensive if you are only doing a short trip to work and back a day.
pretty great compared to nsw where its 19$ cap per day mon-thur, 9$ cap fri-sun and 50$ cap weekly, halfed if youre a child or concession
though if youre a senior/pension its a cap of 2.50$ per day which i tell you what was bloody amazing when i had one
@@vincentgrinn2665 The only problem with NSW is our government bloddy greedy.. We have 10 trip Max before, so you can Travel as little as 28 per week... Not to mention 2.5 unlimited everywhere in NSW on weekends.. Little by little our money waster government remove it..... Yeah both government as bad as another...
@@vincentgrinn2665 yeah Naha still pretty shit I use too have too okay $10 too go 5 stops to work and back every day through trains. Now in Sydney I’m paying $3 each way for my trip. I also don’t have too but an opal or myki card as I just use my Apple Watch too tap on. Can you guys in Melbourne use your credit or debit card yet? Still behind arnt you
As a pensioner its $2.50 all day on all modes of transport. Fantastic for people with disabilities, you have a choice!
Comparing topography, and then you focus on one square kilometre. There are multiple river systems that cut through Sydney making the burbs far more intersting than flat old Melbourne (with all it's railroad crossings), but I digress. It's all those valleys and hills that make greater Sydney infrasctructure a challenge. I'm saying this with a grain of salt in the spirit of the videos guys :) Which I really enjoyed, well done and thankyou both.
Maybe come visit 70 rail crossings are gone with 40 more planned to go
@@74_pelicans I demand answers! Who told Melbourne about bridges and tunnels?
@cherazyzz And it still will fall behind Sydney's. Melbourne's transit will never ever catch up if they continually concentrate on massive infrastructure projects.
Can you Pay with credit card in Melbourne ? and can I go to CBD by train from the airport?
Not yet! Tho the company that brought the system to Adelaide is now going to be bringing to Melbourne!
flog
@@TrebleSketch hmm then how the heck it's ticketing system better than Sydney? The only problem with Sydney is our government is greedy as F..
@@anubizz3 think he was trying to say that it's simpler and doesn't really consider how it is paid/interfaces with public usage.
@@TrebleSketch like what I said that because our government is greedy as F, we used to have 10 trip limit, so you can pay as little as you travel and $2.5 weekend unlimited travel, free city bus.. Both our government throw that away...
What I've found better in Melbourne was more it's active transport and trams. Never had a big problem riding bicycles in Melbourne - thanks to it's grid network I had an easier time finding a quiet side street to bypass busier ones, and they've invested a lot in segregated cycling lanes too. I feel Sydney (even in the Inner West + CBD) still has a lot of catching up in that regard, thanks to its road network not being conductive to providing alternate routes. (Not putting cycling lanes along George Street - the one street that can access all of Sydney's CBD - was a mistake.)
Frequencies of buses and trains, however, Sydney (or at least outside of the outer suburbs and Northern Beaches) wins by a good margin.
Disagree with ticketing. NSW can use opal, credit/debit cards. Also, disagree about double decker trains. It would add a few seconds at most.
One like the one sharrsth said in bus rotes looks likw mine
“Melbourne train carriages cannot carry as many people as Sydney train carriages” isn’t the positive that you think is
it is though lol
I think that you have missed something, you sort of touched on the topic though There's one thing that people like to do and that is to drive to the train station and park the car there... The problem I have found that that in Sydney compared to Melbourne is that in Melbourne, you point your car in the direction of the train station and drive straight there, whereas in Sydney I found that I have to head in the opposite direction for some distance before I can turn around and to get to where I want to go, in this case it was a train station, passing along the way the location where I originally started from.... I can't understand the logic behind it....
Obviously it's not the fault of the public transport system, the roads authority needs to fix this and to get rid of the exits on the right hand side of their British sounding motorways.... Imagine preparing to exit and suddenly realising that your exit is way over to your right! Especially if you are from somewhere else, now you are well on your way to who knows where! It's very daunting if you are from out of town.
But there are plenty of people who, for the majority of their lives will only use public transport on rare occasions to get into Melbourne City and will drive to the train station, park the car there and take a train... It's just so easy to do.
Great videos here and on Sharath's channel. One thing I'll point out about the timetables - Sydney at least has real-time for buses while Melbourne does not (through AnyTrip/NextThere or the Google Maps). At least in Sydney when a service gets cancelled, most of the time we know [except for those uncommon sneaky "real time not available"].
I'd wish Melbourne and other cities can incorporate this, as in Australia especially we coordinate journeys based on the timing that public transport operates. Not as much a turn-up-and-go way.
Hi Phill,
Great video, could you do one one like Vline v NSW Train-link that would be cool to watch
Glad you enjoyed it, and thanks for the idea!
Have to agree with the point about timetables at bus stops. NSW (not just Sydney) has much work to do on that.
As for the bus corridors through Sydney CBD it's a mess by our current concept of living in Sydney.
A lot of longstanding bus routes in Sydney are just former tram routes. Those tram routes would have been run through the CBD based on track alignment and possibly demographic. There would have been no consideration for people with mobility issues and in the late 1800's you really wouldn't have had another option.
I USED TO GK TO BEECROFT FOR SCHOOM WHAT MEMORIES, LOVE MELBOURNE NKT FKR TRABSPIRT FOR MELBOURNE STORM
Hi Philip, Great video. I was just watching Sharath's video and decided to come over here. I have been living in Melbourne since 1981 and prior to that, I lived in Sydney. Back in 1981, I found that Melbourne's public transport far surpassed that of Sydney. We almost had double deck trains here in Melbourne, but the order was cancelled in around 1992. I was lucky enough to ride the test double deck carriages here on a few occasions prior to them being withdrawn. Love the description of Sydney's octopus designed streets. Talking about bus stops, try catching a bus in Wagga NSW. There are no signs outside of the CBD and when asking a local, I was told, just go up there and it is near the third hole on the left!!! LOL. Amazingly enough, all the Wagga locals seem to know exactly where to wait, despite no signs. Melbourne badly needs good airport public transport links. One idea would be just to extend the Airport West tram line. Of course, an airport rail link would also be great and I believe that is in the planning stage along with other improvements to the rail lines. Anyway, wishing you all the very best. Rob in Melbourne Australia.
Melbourne needs to have belt lines like SRL to enable people to get to more places.
It also needs to invest in the West while it has greenfield land available for development. Don’t wait until it’s overdeveloped and then try to put a new line in.
The Sunbury trunk is already at Capacity.
There should also be extensions to the tram network, with more frequent trams. I hope the next generation trams coming next year have a larger fleet.
Block cars from some sections of the road so its tram only. E.g parts of Chapel St.
Upgrade signalling to ETCS. Werribee and Sandringham and Sunbury is the perfect place to start.
Improve connectivity between regional towns. The current V/Line tracks have too much bends and aren’t maintained enough.
We should be able to travel directly from Geelong to Bendigo without going into Melbourne and back.
Improve Buses. Bring Double Decker buses for longer routes and have more frequent buses in smaller precincts. 30 minutes for a bus is unacceptable.
Have dedicated Bus/Taxi/Tram lanes in more places. It will encourage more ridership.
Look I’m all honesty I believe that Melbourne has probably the better PT system although we do need to improve on trans (frequency in particular)
Drastically. And better non CBD centric routes and connections - both something Sydney definitely does better
Do you even watch the other video?
North-South coverage with trams is remarkably poor compared to how easy it would be to make it good. There are so many high traffic straight roads that go north to south that have bus routes, but no trams.
Well being a Melburnian I have to disagree. Sydney's Rail Network is far superior and our Bus Network absolutely stinks.
all that is know from this video Melbournes waterway looks like brown sewage whereas in Sydneys is looks prestige blue
you can blame the terraformers for that
which funny cause in Melb it's natural sediment from the flow of the river but in Sydney the beaches are polluted with actual sewerage
Was yelling dwell time, dwell time at the screen there for a minute. 🙂
one thing that both of these videos has made me think about is, just how much information is reasonable to offload to an app or something
like for those who have access to it, it shows you where the stops are, when transport comes and arrives, the fastest route there including transfers, the cost, everything you need. which also takes out a lot of confusion from stuff like melbournes mess of a cbd
but at the same time if you rely too much on it then anyone without access is screwed
to be fair Tripview does everything mentioned but doesn't show cost (at least in Sydney, idk bout melb). The Sydney Opal app can show all its just a bit clunky to use, but you get a pretty decent idea on how expensive a trip will be for a regular commuter, and for visitors the cost is usually not as important as its just a "holiday expense"
@@YoyoZee oh yeah i didnt mean creating a new one, i meant there are already apps and sites for it even google maps does a good job of it
just meant like is that an excuse for messy routes and poor signage
@@vincentgrinn2665 oh I understand the point you were making now, yep you right
I’ve lived in both cities. They both have positives and negatives. In my view the overall better city to live in is Melbourne for a number of reasons. First and most importantly, Melbourne has a friendly atmosphere and culture. Sydney is the complete opposite. Secondly Sydney is an expensive place to live particularly with all its toll roads and congestion. Sydney certainly has the beautiful harbour, however beyond that space it’s very unattractive and grubby.
I mean the point of the video is to compare transport systems, not the cities itself.
The comparison is between PT and Sydney wins hands down.
Very good guys. 2 great vid's.
The Sydney double deckers are great for the longer routes - and they manage 4 minute headways despite the dwell time issue. But the single deck HCMTs woulld be great for the inner suburban routes - and they are made in Australia.
I've lived in Melbourne and although the tram network is extensive, it's definitely not a quick way of getting into the city. It's quite slow compared with the trains. Melbourne trains also have less carriages which means less people, more trains running and more congested lines?
Being Canberran and hearing Melbourne praised so much for the grid is absolutely sending me, grids are boring!!!
If you think Sydney's bad, Canberra would likely give you an aneurysm.
was wondering when this video might be arriving, i commented a while back on transport vlogs video on the sydney airport that you guys should do a colab either with paul or Sharath and paul mentioned something was in the works.
Great video. Have often wondered which city's PT would hold up best under expert scrutiny. PS "AFL" is not a sport, it's a competition. Should've said "Aussie rules vs Rugby". Cheers and sorry for being a pedant
I am In Sydney, Well i'm not from Sydney, I was from Norway, i was born in Bergen in Norway. But Trams in Sydney are not going further to other places like sydney which use to have the Biggest Tram System. Then Melbourne Beat Sydney in the 1960s. But in Manchester where i went to before i came to Sydney, The Metrolink originally Convert Old Railways. Having a Light Rail, or Tram Line of Converting Old Railways that Close before Construction is very Easy and Doesn't take Long.
Anyone who thinks that Melbourne is anywhere near Sydney as regards to Public Transport is delusional.
Just take PT to the airport. Sydney has a train to Kingsford Smith and will have one to Western Sydney in 2030.
We in the other hand. Apart from the Private Skybus it is a train to Broadmeadows or a tram to Airport West then a bus which have poor frequencies, especially at the weekends.
Comparing Apples with oranges. The geographic difference for starters. The harbour and water crossings in Sydney the flatness of Melbourne suburbs, especially the west and north and the bay. These comparisons are pretty well useless, but if u want to muck abour with your delusions of which is better,.......
Well Sydney Metro is single-decker trains with multiple doors her car. (Not why Sharath didn't mention that)
One thing you said wrong, as you took Switzerland with the double decker trains for the Intercity Trains, it came from the slow every stop serving commuter trains - They are all double stock, extensive since in the late 90's.
The one thing I liked when I visited Sydney vs Melbourne with ticketing is that I could just tap my credit or debit card. As a visitor it was so much easier than having to buy a card and not knowing how much money you should put on it.
banger video phil as always keep up the awesome work i hope i run into you one day and take a picture with you youre the goat
You lost me when you said Myki beats out the convenience of using your credit card o pay for trips. We were in Melbourne 2 weeks ago and couldn't believe we had to buy a Myki and put a $10 block of credit on it. Myki is rancid. Oh and the Metro wasn't mentioned. Neither was the fact that Sydney will have two airport rail connections before Melbourne has its first.
Melbourne has better public transport to sporting/entertainment precincts. The MCG can be accessed via 6 direct lines and two stations as well as several tram stops. Sydney olympic park (currently) only has one line from the south and one station. Moore Park on the far east of Sydney only has light rail access.
& its not Rugby!!! Rugby League & Rugby Union are 2 different games & organisations!!
I watched the other video, and i think Sydney has it over Melbourne. Coz of train frequency alone, reliability of a train every 15mins in off peak
Sydney definitely better in all aspects.
1. More space on public transport. More carrages.
2. Cheaper
3. You pay with credit card. Us Melbournians still use Myki.
1. theres more carriages because theyre required...take a train ride in peak times and show me where all the space went
Sydney is not cheaper, a daily ticket is $16.80 compared to $10. In Melbourne.
@@74_pelicans The daily cap may be less. But the minimum is far higher, A single trip in Melbourne will cost you $5, In Sydney is could be as low as $2.24. For the average commuter and low usage patron Sydney is cheaper, and with a weekly cap of $50 in both cities frequent users it costs the same. It's really only a niche 4+ trips on a single day user that Sydney is more expensive.
@@arrgghh1555 $5? No, $3.30 would be the comparable minimum in Melbourne, full fare. Half that with concession.
To be fair Melbourne has the awful vline or regional train for suburbs that are still metro Melbourne like Donnybrook. Sydney keeps the outer suburbs as part of the same train line.
Melbourne is great...except for the one thing that cannot be changed, the weather
An easy way for Melbourne PT to win is to compare it to Adelaide. We got nothing in our regions
True. Just a simple comparison in maps will expose how obviously crap (minus the O-Bahn on a personal level) our PT network in general is.
@@timothyteo4602 exactly. Got booming towns like Mount Barker, and there's not even a gord darn train service that runs between Adelaide and Mount Barker
Double decker trains have more seated capacity, not more capacity overall!
Re double decker trains, yeah nah, more passengers, less waiting for a train if they are full in peak times ...
I would have like a comparison of a Sydney service train vs Melbourne service train journey time to highlight how much longer the dwell times of a 2 level train add to a journey
Probably would add some, but the general speed of Sydney's rail network is better than Melbourne.
I know Sydney versus Melbourne is an old rivalry but I think both could learn a little of how to do city transit from looking at Perth and how not to do regional public transport from looking at the rest of WA (or Tamworth where I now live).
Another item you may want to look at is why you only need one E-Tag for all Australian toll roads but for every public transport system you need different stored value cards. As a result, I have 5 different cards with over $100 total balance paying 0% interest even though the public transport where I live is a cash only system.
Well we have 1 ticketing system in Sydney.. It's called credit card. Some say it can be use in other continent to.
@@anubizz3 Credit card does not work for any concession fares so the primary ticketing system is still Opal
@@anubizz3so why do majority still use the physical card+
@@74_pelicans you mean opal? Really? Most People use their phone or credit card this days... There is 0 benefits of using opal this days, unless like Graham say you need to access the concession benefit. Alot of Sydney school children don't even bother to pay for bus and trams anyway.
if you use opal frequently, you can get a weekly cap. otherwise on credit card you'll keep paying@@anubizz3
Sydney lonely suburban bus stops do have timetables and route info
Not to mention alot of bus have tracker so you can see it in tripview or google map. Who need timetable when you can see where the bus located.
@@anubizz3anyone who doesn't have data? Like most people haha
Not all, like the one in the video is just a small sign. Low frequency buses that go to semi-rural areas or car-centric neighbourhoods often have stops that aren’t even signed and if they are have a tiny sign or unofficial marking. A lot of the older operators had their own versions of signs so there are a few variations.
It is getting better though and more and more bus stops are getting the official blue B signage which has all the info Melbournes have.
Every bus stop in Melbourne and beyond has consistent and formal signage, even stops in rural areas and towns.
You almost had me.... but the fact is grids are bad are closely linked to US style car dominance. European cities have organic street patterns that are much more human friendly.
Actually good point, I think transport patronage proves this point, organic and TODs support transport use. I believe more people travel by train in Sydney alone than all the other transport modes (train, tram, and bus) in Melbourne combined. I think that still applies.
Yet both amazing work on both sides of Sydney and Melbourne love your work Mr Mallis
Sharath's video looked into public transport for major shopping malls.
But which city provides the better public transport access to major hospitals and universities? Which hospitals or university campuses have the best and worse public transport access in each city?
Hospitals are major employers often distant from CBDs that need to be staffed 24 hours a day and accommodate large numbers of patients and visitors.
Universities have huge student numbers and require a decent sized workforce. They also accommodate visitors, guest lecturers and research participants.
Some hospitals and universities have reasonable public transport access. Others are difficult and parking is a challenge.
Interested in thoughts on this and ways this could be improved
For the top five of unis and hospitals
Sydney
Unis - 3 served by metro/train with one by light rail and the fifth having light rail open in the next month.
Hospitals - 4 by train, one just outside of train catchment (RPA).
Melbourne
Unis - two are not serviced by train, two are serviced and one (Melb uni) is serviced by enough trams to make it light rail quality (though will have trains soon)
Hospitals - all but one are serviced by train
So seems Sydney easily wins on uni, but tie on hospitals.
I am so tired of this Melbourne Sydney rivalry and the childish my dad is better than your dad type comments accompanying everyone of these videos.Melbourne and Sydney both have wonderful qualities.As do Hobart,Darwin, Perth, Canberra, Brisbane and Adelaide.
This is about Public Transport. Sydney vs Melbourne and by every objective measure Sydney's win hands down.
You know what I am tired of. People from Melbourne not accepting it and punting the nonsense that Melbourne's Public Transport is better when for e.g. our heavy rail system is nowhere near Sydney's. Oh to have Sydney's network of Sydney Trains and Metro. Melbourne's does not even come close.
I have no love for Dan Andrews but what an absolute mess of a transport system he inherited from years of neglect from previous mainly ALP Governments who poured money into our freeway system and left the Public Transport system to rot.
Yes we have a world class tram network. A tram network served mainly by high floor trams that should have been retired and made into razor blades long ago. At least Sydney's is served by modern low floor vehicles. But in the myopia of pressing ahead with mega projects such as the Suburban Rail Loop, the Government decided to spend $250 Million refurbishing old trams, instead of purchasing new low floor trams.
As regards to the buses, if you do not live in the Smart Bus Corridors and there are some frequent bus routes outside smart bus, the network absolutely stinks. Most runs every 30 mins Mon-Fri and hourly on weekends.
And just look at what Sydney is doing with their stations. Look at what they are doing at Redfern, at Central. Comparing Southern Cross and Flinders Street to Central is an insult to Central Station.
Sorry but anyone who thinks that Melbourne has a better system needs their head read.
Great video Philip. Maybe the people whinge about Melbournes public transport system should watch this. Now time to watch the opposing argument.
If you think that Melbourne's Public Transport is better than Sydney's then you are dreaming.
Sydney is city surrounded by water, so it's a little biased to leave out Sydney's extensive and and essential ferry service. Many people also use ferries for work commute too.
Re ticketing, Sydney has had paywave/contactless for credit and debit cards for years. Rest of the country still hasn't rolled that out.
Sydney also has quick easy frequent trains from the airport. No competition there.
Brisbane also has an airport train. When is Melbourne getting one? Ridiculous that it doesnt already.
Every bus stop i used whilst living in sydney for 12 years had a timetable. Regardless the transport app shows real time/tracked transport due at the stop.
Yes the tram network is better in Melbourne. That's a no brainer.
"so it's a little biased to leave out Sydney's extensive and and essential ferry service"
Melbourne only has 2 ferry services as a part of its public transport network, so there's really no point adding this in. those 2 ferry services are also just short shuttle routes, one that goes across the Yarra between Port Melbourne and Spotswood, and the other goes between Stony Point and Phillip Island with a stop at French Island
"Re ticketing, Sydney has had paywave/contactless for credit and debit cards for years."
that sure is convenient, but you don't know how much you're paying until you open your banking app a few days later to find that 30 dollars have been taken out of your account to pay those fares
"Sydney also has quick easy frequent trains from the airport."
quick easy frequent trains from the airport that are ridiculously overpriced
"When is Melbourne getting one?"
supposedly 2029, but I imagine it'll be done sooner than that. some early construction started a while ago
"Regardless the transport app shows real time/tracked transport due at the stop."
PTV app does this as well
Melbourne is never going to have a train to the Airport. Our Treasurer had given one of the biggest dummy spits I have seen from a Politician ever. The Airport link project is pathetic and the blame lies fairly and squarely on the state government. They knew of the deal bequeathed to the Airport by the Howard Government. What a waste of money getting a mediator in. The Airport holds all the cards and Premier Allan knows this.
And the fact that massively over scoped the project by insisting on ridiculous overpasses at Albion when a simple at grade junction would suffice. $10-$13 Billion for 16 km above grade project of which 10kms already exist? And a 7 year lead time, for a service that runs every 10 minutes. Really? Just build the bloody station in the PT Bus Station behind T4.
The only major that has been done is the ARTC rebuild 600 Metres of Dual Gauge Track West of Albion. And as for the Feds, what do they do? Instead of giving money to Victoria to complete useful infill projects like the Somerton Link and revitalising the Broad Gauge Freight so that Shepparton and Seymour Trains can be diverted away from the Broadmeadows corridor, they pour more money into the NE Link.
And time and time again you get posts spouting all these stupid conspiracy theories as to why Melbourne does not have an airport line. The answer is because Victoria is absolutely useless in doing PT projects. Now that the Airport line is not going to completed if at all till 2033, why not provide decent Bus Services from Sunshine. It can be easily do by extending one of the Airport West Buses and just extending the span of hours and improving frequency. Or they can extend the 59 Tram.
Melbourne metro needs more elevators at their stations
AFL, Chocolate, Sydney! the end. =P
Can you use the Myki on all vline services or only some?
only some, past a certain distance you need either a physical ticket or an online ticket. this map will help you if you need to specifically know when you'd need a ticket: www.victoriawalks.org.au/Assets/Images/VLine_Train_Coach_Map_contrast.jpg
@@TheLostProbe Cheers, thanks.
@@HouseholdDog it is still the same price cap for paper vline tickets, and if you have one you can use it instead of a myki on any other service that day. Just have to pick it up the day before. It's a pain, but if you're travelling regional you're already planning in advance anyway.
Why does Melbourne have a “National Gallery”, “of Victoria” ? That makes no sense. Victoria is a latecomer, a Colony in 1851 I think, Melbourne came later. The Nation, Australia, came with Federation in 1901. There is little “National” about Melbourne and Victoria.
Melbourne was founded in 1835. The first part of the National Gallery of Victoria was built in 1874 and named as such in 1875. The art school was even earlier in 1867.
I believe the idea at the time was that there would be "National Galleries" in each state - e.g "National Gallery of NSW", "National Gallery of SA", etc. but this didn't happen. Melbourne was also the capital of Australia from 1901 to 1927.
@@philipmallis Thanks for that info. By the way, Melbourne was never officially “the Capital of Australia”, it was the temporary home of the Federal Parliament before the First Parliament House was opened in Canberra by the Duke of York in 1927. Interesting, between 1835 and 1851, Melbourne was in the original New South Wales colony.
Great video. Makes me appreciate Melbourne public transport even more. 👍
Really?
You never mentioned the great Ferry service on Sydney Harbour. I'm from Perth and live in country Victoria so I don't have any biase.
Sydney by far - more tourists in Sydney