I have been carrying my LCR 3" in an sticky type holster, very convenient. In shorts or pijamas I only stuck it inside my underwear, no broblem. For me, part of the magic of the LCR line is the grip with their gel pad, not interested in changing it. Cool concept non the less, kudos to you for your open minddes and experimentation with new concepts. Very happy with my LCR for all day every day carry.
Rhett, thanks again for taking the time to speak to me while you were loading your uHaul. After speaking to Darryl Bolke, Ellifritz, then you, I’ve ordered up a 22 LCR and a complete set of Hamre Forge grips. Will test that combo and likely land on another Enigma. Great session at TacCon BTW!!
I use a clipdraw on my j frame. Works great with a thin, stretchy belt. I picked the 22lr j frame because the clipdraw position looked more optimal than it did on an LCR. It sits a bit deeper and makes it more stable. Snub nose revolvers are a great carry tool because of the versatility.
I would like to try one on my LCR, but I really like the factory grips. I know first hand that it sucks purchasing a holster that doesn't work. Thumbs up for you video and efforts.
I use the similar barami hip grip on my Charter Arms Pro V. At 30 oz loaded, I don't think it works well without a belt. It has the advantage of letting you clip the gun on your belt or pocket if you have to perform a one handed reload. My gun has a protruding fiber optic bead that sometimes snags on my underwear so I do use mine with a a thin floppy leather sweat sleeve to make for smoother draws. I made the sleeve with access to the trigger in case it comes out with the gun, but as long as I'm not tucking in my shirt it's usually anchored to my speed loader holder carried iwb directly next to my gun.
I use the clip draw on my lcr with the grips that come on the gun. I wrap the rubber grips in goon tape. Now I only use this in gym shorts, hanging around the house, yard work, or going to and from the gym. I have went to make that last minute grocery store run for the wife before dinner, when there is no time to change and gear up. Works pretty well for me. I want to do some more range work with it.
What's old is new again - glip-it grips were molded for J - frame Smiths & Colt Dick Specials/Cobras for DECADES, A SIMPLE right side grip panel w/a hook at the top, you used the issue grip on the left, the hook grip was molded to natch the factory grip... I ran one for a while on a Smith M-49.....decided Pacmeier boot grips were better.
Got one of these per your recommendation for my 351c smith and Wesson snubby 7 shot 22 mag. But my problem is I love my green laser crimson trace and pocket carry it. Love laser for dry fire and checking my aim. I wear 221B CCW jeans and can keep snubby in upper pocket there. I know you like lasers. Would you give up the laser and stick with hammer forge? It’s really nice feeling as a grip totally agree.
I'm not doubting this can work, I'm aware there's plenty of historical precedent. However, where i'm stuck at is I've done the deep concealment/minimalist thing with trigger guard holsters, in my pre enigmatic days and I found that with nothing blocking my body from the gun, it was extremely uncomfortable. I'm guessing the higher grip height mitigates this, as well as the deep dive sometimes required for clipdraws and semis, but I still have a hard time buying into it.
Try running it holsterless in a extra small smart carry (not the small that you purchased for the LCR with kydex holster mod since you won't need the length due to the extra kydex, it is an option under "semi auto firearms" under 2.9 inch barrel) it will be more minimal than even the enigma but more security than the boxer briefs. Well, possiblely more security... it might actually be more secure under boxer briefs because you got elasic pressing up againts you with the briefs. Though I see the main appeal of this method of carry has to do with ultra minimal, and also ease and speed of being armed for casual carry. I don't find smart carry time consuming to set up though. Less set up than the enigma if you leg leash though. Do the grips intrude with fitting into kydex holsters such as your city special? I wonder if you still would be better off just simply adding dcc clips to a city special and clipping that on to your boxers unless thats not minimal enough. It would still give all the benifits of ease and speed of being armed casually with the safety benifits of a holster... not to mention sweat protection. Thanks! I will be looking at these grips though, because they have a place holster or no holster, I want my gun to have a way to be carried. I have been using clip draw, but wanted to replace the grips anyway on my LCR 22
LCR as 'Underwar Gun'...cool. How are the grips themselves, quality and comfort-wise? I've been using the Rogers Enhanced grips, sanding a radius on the base and stippling the front and back straps; easily done since they're ABS plastic. *Underwear*... spelling is hard.
The clip design looks to be more secure and less obtrusive than either the old Barami Hip Grip or the more modern DeSantis Clip Grip. I definitely will give these a try. Another use for these types of grips, as espoused by Michael DeBethencourt and others, is ankle carry. In a critical incident where one must draw from an ankle holster and the immediate issue was resolved by either the threat or actual application of deadly force, one should stow the firearm if an interaction with law enforcement seems imminent. Taking a knee and looking down long enough to reholster an ankle gun might be tactically unsound in many situations. In this case, being able to quickly and safely stow the firearm yet still temporarily have fast access seems like a good idea whether or not one deems ankle carry itself to be a "good idea."
@@MGMan37 When I said, "contact with law enforcement seems imminent," I didn't mean to imply that law enforcement was on the scene, merely in route...hopefully soon, and hopefully because the defender has already called 911. In the meantime, a threat could still be possible from a subject who had fled the scene but could return or from a subject that was down but still conscious. A threat could also suddenly materialize from the subject's family members, friends, or even just random bystanders in the area. In those instances, leaving one's gun outside of immediate control by placing it on the ground seems risky. On the other hand, if law enforcement presence does not seem imminent, it might be prudent to call 911 before retreating to a safer location and accept the legal risks associated with leaving the scene of a crime. I apologize for not being more clear in my original reply, but I felt that it was already too long.
Have you seen the Stuff and Things bullpup kits for the Zastava AK pistols? They're explicitly designed to be cheek pistols, so I'd think perfect for the manual of arms you have for the Zastava you used for your ak cheek pistol build.
I would like to see more of these grips and maybe a comparison of different grips. From reading some of the post here it seems DeSantis makes a similar one. I am wondering if this is a hard material and will not be as nice as Rubber. Can you do another video? There website does not give much in detail.
I agree this holsterless carry would work best with wheel guns. I own several and like them much. In fact. I carry two wheel guns when I leave the house. Always. Suggestion. Carry holsterless for one week. Then get a clip, attach it to the gun and carry it that way for one week. That should give you a good idea which way you prefer. JMO
I used to carry a J-frame with a "Clipdraw". It was stainless, so a lot less convenient than something like the LCR or a scandium j-frame. It worked great, but I only carried with jeans. Between the belt, the jeans and the very heavy/long pull, I was comfortable with it. On an autoloader? I just don't know. It certainly could not be like most of the popular striker-fired guns. It would need a safety and/or a deliberate trigger. I don't wear athletic type clothes, so I can't comment on this setup. I would personally want something more secure, because those shorts could do anything in the heat of the moment. EDIT: The Clipdraw kept the gun a little higher in the waistband. Not the greatest for appendix, but that is how I carried it.
I have a pair on a 340PD as a superlight, minimalist grab-and-go option. Lower ride and better stability than the clip-type solutions, and now that gun is even lighter than when it was wearing a clip and rubber Hogue bantams.
I was hoping I would see a comment from someone with a 340PD. I was looking at the Techni clip but I think this might be better. I don't carry the 340 as often as my regular carry but when I do this might be nice.
I have a similar set of grips ( DeSantis clip grips, now-discontinued) that I used to carry a J frame with Using them with a pair of boxer briefs for deep concealed never occurred to me however At this point hamre forge has not released these for the Ruger or Taurus revolvers, so I'm waiting to see what happens there
I’ve been carrying a 43c with a clip draw for about 3 years now , and regardless of attire a life jacket belt cut to my waist size has by far been the most comfortable carry method yet. I know my calibers choice and carry method will get me killed in “the streets “ but my active lifestyle of climbing through attics or under houses in whatever ever neighborhood or rural house calls me , I will have something . My biggest nit pick about the way of carrying is when I drive a lot ie staging around seat belt or more important things that can get in the way while seated. however “unholstering” is easier for the long drive situation or having to go into a npe where your not supposed to carry….on the astronomical chance that they could tell or make that your carrying I say “leave the yoga pants at home “
Clipdraw is the product name. They have clips for specific models of guns. And the life jacket belt is as ghetto as it sounds. The big cheap orange life vest that makes you look like you are eating sunscreen when you’re wearing it …yes the belt that straps it to you. I know it sounds shady but as much as I get around working ,chasing and playing with my kids it’s the most comfortable way to always have a snubbie on me.
@@johnjordan9934 ok gotcha. Thanks. So you feed that belt through your pants rights? I’m guessing it’s ideal because it’s lightweight and has a thin profile.
Thin profile yes but I wear it under my pants . Any garments from swimsuits to suits I can carry “deep concealed “ ie not showing without a shirt in swim shorts. Or I can let it ride high in winter clothes . If I feel like my belt wants to ride down or wander ( after being very active manual labor ) running the life jacket belt through my back loop of my pants and it is as if it is through all loops. This works for a 5’9” 170+ soft dad bod.
@@johnjordan9934 this is very interesting. Is the draw pretty consistent? Have you ever had the belt rise up causing the firearm to not unclip from the belt? Or do the pants kind of hold it in place more or less?
Excuse my ignorance but with this method of carry the cylinder has no protection, so can wobble a lot espacially when seated or other types of movement. Semiauto are tough bout revolver cylinder is not designed to take all this wobble due to movement. But it just my thinking. I have no experience in this.
What’s your opinion about the dangers of appendix carry? We are always taught never to flag a gun in a harmful way but most appendix carry situations have you pointing your gun at your private parts or femoral artery. I’m starting to questions if the cons outweigh the pros. Thoughts?
Strong side carry presents the same if not greater risk during the holster process with the added cons of the shooter having less dexterity off center line, less weak hand support for garment clearing, and less convenient visual line to the holster. Most shooters holstering strong side will unknowingly flag themselves across the entire pelvic girdle, aligning the gun for a wound path that would traverse both femoral arteries.
@@demonstratedconceptsllc4918 Honest question, isn't that a training issue instead of something baked into the carry method, as it is with appendix? Appendix is faster and certainly has some advantages, I don't question that. I just don't see how strong side is more dangerous. You certainly can flag yourself with either method. Another thing that I think matters is, even if you do flag your artery what is happening as you do? With strong side, you already have a solid grip and are moving the gun towards it's top. With appendix, you are pulling the gun out in the same direction the trigger has to be pulled and you don't quite have a full grip at the start. Anyway, both can be relatively safe, but I think appendix is statistically less safe. The good news is, everyone gets to choose for themselves. I have carried both ways. I wanted to add, exact location, 2, 3 ,4 o'clock changes things regarding risk, so does cant.
John Johnsten of Citizen's Defense Research has a good video on RUclips demonstrating an ND with a firearm carried AIWB. I'd recommend you watch that video. He's also done a couple videos in the ASP channel discussing AIWB misconceptions. With a properly configured holster setup, a gun cqrri d appendix should not be aimed oriented with the muzzle pointing at the femoral artery. There may be some cases where people with large bellies may need to move the holster more to a 1-2 o'clock carry position to obtain concealment, but people with a more athletic body shape should not need to keep the gun in a position where the muzzle covers their FA.
I haven't handled them but I guarantee they're much more ergonomic then the old Barami grips. That and they have some texture to them as well. Look like just a much better design overall, and that's just from a grip standpoint, hook aside.
It’s meant to replicate a Barami + a Tyler T except done better. Definitely one of those 1+1=3 scenarios. I’ve been running the J version since prototype and they’ve improved with every iteration.
I'm digging what you're doing with this, and glad you're testing it out.
I have been carrying my LCR 3" in an sticky type holster, very convenient. In shorts or pijamas I only stuck it inside my underwear, no broblem. For me, part of the magic of the LCR line is the grip with their gel pad, not interested in changing it. Cool concept non the less, kudos to you for your open minddes and experimentation with new concepts. Very happy with my LCR for all day every day carry.
I've been carrying like this. I did testing running at full sprint, rolling on the ground, etc. and no issues.
Rhett, thanks again for taking the time to speak to me while you were loading your uHaul. After speaking to Darryl Bolke, Ellifritz, then you, I’ve ordered up a 22 LCR and a complete set of Hamre Forge grips. Will test that combo and likely land on another Enigma. Great session at TacCon BTW!!
Thank you! It was great chatting with you!
another great down to earth vid yes I carry with all kinds of no holster ways with any wheel gun thanks for all the time it takes to do what you do
Update us when you got more time on that setup. Might actually get myself a lcr because of it.
Glad to see you back and love the lcr 22 content
Always bringing the good, practical content!
I use a clipdraw on my j frame. Works great with a thin, stretchy belt. I picked the 22lr j frame because the clipdraw position looked more optimal than it did on an LCR. It sits a bit deeper and makes it more stable. Snub nose revolvers are a great carry tool because of the versatility.
I would like to try one on my LCR, but I really like the factory grips. I know first hand that it sucks purchasing a holster that doesn't work. Thumbs up for you video and efforts.
I learned the hard way, long ago, that a Barami hip grip on a J is in no way secure. Heed my cautionary tale!
I use the similar barami hip grip on my Charter Arms Pro V. At 30 oz loaded, I don't think it works well without a belt. It has the advantage of letting you clip the gun on your belt or pocket if you have to perform a one handed reload. My gun has a protruding fiber optic bead that sometimes snags on my underwear so I do use mine with a a thin floppy leather sweat sleeve to make for smoother draws. I made the sleeve with access to the trigger in case it comes out with the gun, but as long as I'm not tucking in my shirt it's usually anchored to my speed loader holder carried iwb directly next to my gun.
Just got my hook grips. Solid stuff
I use the clip draw on my lcr with the grips that come on the gun. I wrap the rubber grips in goon tape. Now I only use this in gym shorts, hanging around the house, yard work, or going to and from the gym. I have went to make that last minute grocery store run for the wife before dinner, when there is no time to change and gear up. Works pretty well for me. I want to do some more range work with it.
What's old is new again - glip-it grips were molded for J - frame Smiths & Colt Dick Specials/Cobras for DECADES, A SIMPLE right side grip panel w/a hook at the top, you used the issue grip on the left, the hook grip was molded to natch the factory grip... I ran one for a while on a Smith M-49.....decided Pacmeier boot grips were better.
Got one of these per your recommendation for my 351c smith and Wesson snubby 7 shot 22 mag. But my problem is I love my green laser crimson trace and pocket carry it. Love laser for dry fire and checking my aim. I wear 221B CCW jeans and can keep snubby in upper pocket there. I know you like lasers. Would you give up the laser and stick with hammer forge? It’s really nice feeling as a grip totally agree.
Backordered but on the list to try... can you update us on cp33, this and tx22c for SD or have you stuck w 9mm?
It’s great but what about the laser? Worth giving up?
I'm not doubting this can work, I'm aware there's plenty of historical precedent. However, where i'm stuck at is I've done the deep concealment/minimalist thing with trigger guard holsters, in my pre enigmatic days and I found that with nothing blocking my body from the gun, it was extremely uncomfortable. I'm guessing the higher grip height mitigates this, as well as the deep dive sometimes required for clipdraws and semis, but I still have a hard time buying into it.
Try running it holsterless in a extra small smart carry (not the small that you purchased for the LCR with kydex holster mod since you won't need the length due to the extra kydex, it is an option under "semi auto firearms" under 2.9 inch barrel) it will be more minimal than even the enigma but more security than the boxer briefs. Well, possiblely more security... it might actually be more secure under boxer briefs because you got elasic pressing up againts you with the briefs.
Though I see the main appeal of this method of carry has to do with ultra minimal, and also ease and speed of being armed for casual carry. I don't find smart carry time consuming to set up though. Less set up than the enigma if you leg leash though.
Do the grips intrude with fitting into kydex holsters such as your city special? I wonder if you still would be better off just simply adding dcc clips to a city special and clipping that on to your boxers unless thats not minimal enough. It would still give all the benifits of ease and speed of being armed casually with the safety benifits of a holster... not to mention sweat protection.
Thanks! I will be looking at these grips though, because they have a place holster or no holster, I want my gun to have a way to be carried. I have been using clip draw, but wanted to replace the grips anyway on my LCR 22
LCR as 'Underwar Gun'...cool. How are the grips themselves, quality and comfort-wise? I've been using the Rogers Enhanced grips, sanding a radius on the base and stippling the front and back straps; easily done since they're ABS plastic. *Underwear*... spelling is hard.
The clip design looks to be more secure and less obtrusive than either the old Barami Hip Grip or the more modern DeSantis Clip Grip. I definitely will give these a try.
Another use for these types of grips, as espoused by Michael DeBethencourt and others, is ankle carry. In a critical incident where one must draw from an ankle holster and the immediate issue was resolved by either the threat or actual application of deadly force, one should stow the firearm if an interaction with law enforcement seems imminent. Taking a knee and looking down long enough to reholster an ankle gun might be tactically unsound in many situations. In this case, being able to quickly and safely stow the firearm yet still temporarily have fast access seems like a good idea whether or not one deems ankle carry itself to be a "good idea."
"one should stow the firearm if an interaction with law enforcement seems imminent" Dude just drop it or put it on the ground.
@@MGMan37 When I said, "contact with law enforcement seems imminent," I didn't mean to imply that law enforcement was on the scene, merely in route...hopefully soon, and hopefully because the defender has already called 911. In the meantime, a threat could still be possible from a subject who had fled the scene but could return or from a subject that was down but still conscious. A threat could also suddenly materialize from the subject's family members, friends, or even just random bystanders in the area. In those instances, leaving one's gun outside of immediate control by placing it on the ground seems risky. On the other hand, if law enforcement presence does not seem imminent, it might be prudent to call 911 before retreating to a safer location and accept the legal risks associated with leaving the scene of a crime. I apologize for not being more clear in my original reply, but I felt that it was already too long.
Have you seen the Stuff and Things bullpup kits for the Zastava AK pistols? They're explicitly designed to be cheek pistols, so I'd think perfect for the manual of arms you have for the Zastava you used for your ak cheek pistol build.
I would like to see more of these grips and maybe a comparison of different grips. From reading some of the post here it seems DeSantis makes a similar one. I am wondering if this is a hard material and will not be as nice as Rubber. Can you do another video? There website does not give much in detail.
Interesting idea but I just remembered that Texas carry requires a holster of some sort, any sort really, but a holster.
Are you still able to carry it in your pocket comfortably or is the claw portion too wide?
I agree this holsterless carry would work best with wheel guns. I own several and like them much. In fact. I carry two wheel guns when I leave the house. Always.
Suggestion. Carry holsterless for one week. Then get a clip, attach it to the gun and carry it that way for one week. That should give you a good idea which way you prefer. JMO
I used to carry a J-frame with a "Clipdraw". It was stainless, so a lot less convenient than something like the LCR or a scandium j-frame. It worked great, but I only carried with jeans. Between the belt, the jeans and the very heavy/long pull, I was comfortable with it. On an autoloader? I just don't know. It certainly could not be like most of the popular striker-fired guns. It would need a safety and/or a deliberate trigger. I don't wear athletic type clothes, so I can't comment on this setup. I would personally want something more secure, because those shorts could do anything in the heat of the moment. EDIT: The Clipdraw kept the gun a little higher in the waistband. Not the greatest for appendix, but that is how I carried it.
I have a pair on a 340PD as a superlight, minimalist grab-and-go option. Lower ride and better stability than the clip-type solutions, and now that gun is even lighter than when it was wearing a clip and rubber Hogue bantams.
I was hoping I would see a comment from someone with a 340PD. I was looking at the Techni clip but I think this might be better. I don't carry the 340 as often as my regular carry but when I do this might be nice.
I have a similar set of grips ( DeSantis clip grips, now-discontinued) that I used to carry a J frame with
Using them with a pair of boxer briefs for deep concealed never occurred to me however
At this point hamre forge has not released these for the Ruger or Taurus revolvers, so I'm waiting to see what happens there
I wonder if you can do the FBI disco back flip😂
🤣
Pretty good design/idea, but might be questionable when needing to sprint/move fast with that style of carry.
After watching this, I'm wondering what your opinion is on friction holsters like sticky holsters, etc. in combination with the LCR22.
Not a fan
I’ve been carrying a 43c with a clip draw for about 3 years now , and regardless of attire a life jacket belt cut to my waist size has by far been the most comfortable carry method yet. I know my calibers choice and carry method will get me killed in “the streets “ but my active lifestyle of climbing through attics or under houses in whatever ever neighborhood or rural house calls me , I will have something . My biggest nit pick about the way of carrying is when I drive a lot ie staging around seat belt or more important things that can get in the way while seated. however “unholstering” is easier for the long drive situation or having to go into a npe where your not supposed to carry….on the astronomical chance that they could tell or make that your carrying I say “leave the yoga pants at home “
I’m carrying a 43c as well, in an enigma. Can you explain what a life jacket belt is? Also what kind of clip? I can’t imagine it right now.
Clipdraw is the product name. They have clips for specific models of guns. And the life jacket belt is as ghetto as it sounds. The big cheap orange life vest that makes you look like you are eating sunscreen when you’re wearing it …yes the belt that straps it to you. I know it sounds shady but as much as I get around working ,chasing and playing with my kids it’s the most comfortable way to always have a snubbie on me.
@@johnjordan9934 ok gotcha. Thanks. So you feed that belt through your pants rights? I’m guessing it’s ideal because it’s lightweight and has a thin profile.
Thin profile yes but I wear it under my pants . Any garments from swimsuits to suits I can carry “deep concealed “ ie not showing without a shirt in swim shorts. Or I can let it ride high in winter clothes . If I feel like my belt wants to ride down or wander ( after being very active manual labor ) running the life jacket belt through my back loop of my pants and it is as if it is through all loops. This works for a 5’9” 170+ soft dad bod.
@@johnjordan9934 this is very interesting. Is the draw pretty consistent? Have you ever had the belt rise up causing the firearm to not unclip from the belt? Or do the pants kind of hold it in place more or less?
Love the check p guns
How is this different than previous iterations of the same idea?
I think if I'm gonna wear a gun that low, I might as well use one of those Thunderwear or SmartCarry codpiece holsters...
Excuse my ignorance but with this method of carry the cylinder has no protection, so can wobble a lot espacially when seated or other types of movement. Semiauto are tough bout revolver cylinder is not designed to take all this wobble due to movement. But it just my thinking. I have no experience in this.
Cylinders don't wobble.
Be careful with inside the underwear carry. Ball sweat can be quite corrosive. 😂
🤣
Works great!
im playin. with a heavy trigger pull youre probably fine.
Combined with a trigger guard clip attached to your underwear/pants to protect the trigger may be good for edc
I can already hear the Fudds reeeeeeeing
Thats a new one on me.
👍😃✌️🇺🇸💪
What’s your opinion about the dangers of appendix carry? We are always taught never to flag a gun in a harmful way but most appendix carry situations have you pointing your gun at your private parts or femoral artery. I’m starting to questions if the cons outweigh the pros. Thoughts?
Strong side carry presents the same if not greater risk during the holster process with the added cons of the shooter having less dexterity off center line, less weak hand support for garment clearing, and less convenient visual line to the holster.
Most shooters holstering strong side will unknowingly flag themselves across the entire pelvic girdle, aligning the gun for a wound path that would traverse both femoral arteries.
@@demonstratedconceptsllc4918 Honest question, isn't that a training issue instead of something baked into the carry method, as it is with appendix? Appendix is faster and certainly has some advantages, I don't question that. I just don't see how strong side is more dangerous. You certainly can flag yourself with either method. Another thing that I think matters is, even if you do flag your artery what is happening as you do? With strong side, you already have a solid grip and are moving the gun towards it's top. With appendix, you are pulling the gun out in the same direction the trigger has to be pulled and you don't quite have a full grip at the start.
Anyway, both can be relatively safe, but I think appendix is statistically less safe. The good news is, everyone gets to choose for themselves. I have carried both ways. I wanted to add, exact location, 2, 3 ,4 o'clock changes things regarding risk, so does cant.
John Johnsten of Citizen's Defense Research has a good video on RUclips demonstrating an ND with a firearm carried AIWB. I'd recommend you watch that video. He's also done a couple videos in the ASP channel discussing AIWB misconceptions. With a properly configured holster setup, a gun cqrri d appendix should not be aimed oriented with the muzzle pointing at the femoral artery. There may be some cases where people with large bellies may need to move the holster more to a 1-2 o'clock carry position to obtain concealment, but people with a more athletic body shape should not need to keep the gun in a position where the muzzle covers their FA.
Daddy ☺️
I would never do that. That looks very scary 😧.
A copy of the OLD Barami holster-grip. Nothing new, really.
It’s not a new idea; it is a new material and manufacturing method.
I haven't handled them but I guarantee they're much more ergonomic then the old Barami grips. That and they have some texture to them as well. Look like just a much better design overall, and that's just from a grip standpoint, hook aside.
It’s meant to replicate a Barami + a Tyler T except done better. Definitely one of those 1+1=3 scenarios. I’ve been running the J version since prototype and they’ve improved with every iteration.
Thanks all for the addition/opinions and & updates. 'Maybe' I'll try one for my S&W.