Combo Decks - Yu-Gi-Oh!'s Epic Problem | Heart of the Cast #3
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- Опубликовано: 2 фев 2024
- For episode 3 your hosts @JoshuaSchmidtYGO & @Farfa discuss combo decks. From the history of its inception since the beginning of the game to what Konami has been doing to curb the constant spike of power level.
Check out the episode on Spotify too if you want to keep up!
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Игры
52:28 Josh’s random ass dunk on farfa going completely over farfa’s head is the funniest shit ever
Jesus could either of you promote this on youtube? This had to come through my recommend, and i watch both of you a lot.
Joshua promoted it. That’s how I found about the second episode last week.
@@Ricozaza me too
Yeah I found it the same way
Apparently MBT has a podcast right now too that isn’t even on RUclips.
Mfers need to take a marketing 101 class or something.
It is on RUclips and both he and Danny have talked about it in videos lol@@SDREHXC
@@SDREHXC oh it is on RUclips, it's called Will of the Councel, it's just audio only ATM
This podcast is exactly what I wish Magical hats would be, just a discussion about a topic
Magical Hats was such a misfire
What's wrong with Magical Hats? Curious
@@Kawaiisikkusu It was a good opportunity to get a load of big youtubers together to talk about stuff, important or otherwise, and it was just another one of MBT's intrusive thoughts. Like Adam Sandler's Grown Ups, it's a goof-off session with your friends that you happened to get paid for, and a premise based on who has wrong think is ridiculous. I'd rather they play Fortnite or Mario Party.
@@spicymemes7458fortnite is craaazy💀💀💀
@@spicymemes7458sounds like you are a floodgate player
Midrange doesn't describe how fast the deck wins; it describes the deck's ability to play an aggro plan or a control plan, depending on the matchup.
The whole pendulum discussion got me heated up because pendulums get so much inherent hate from every side deck purely through Anti-Spell and D-barrier, to the point that even if a pendulum deck was as good and resilient as full power Ishizu Tearlaments, it likely wouldn't reach tier 0 still. Worse even, TTThrust can act as 3 additional copies of D-barrier, and you're never ever stopping D-barrier from going off in Draw Phase. Additionally, targeted hate absolutely ends pendulums' viability.
With all that in mind, can you imagine what a pendulum archetype needs to accomplish to "be good"? Because I can tell you it needs to be exactly good enough to require an emergency banlist, and I don't see that happening any time soon.
I think combo is at its most problematic when it's all-or-nothing where it's just "gets all it's stuff out or loses immediately". Anyone who plays MD right now knows that SHS isn't unbeatable, but it's incredibly binary. You either have droll + out bagooska or you very likely lose. There's almost no way this leads to interesting play even if you win.
aka mathmech
Can't believe Josh became XYZ material for Toad
I genuinely believe one of the best solutions to yugioh to this day is to have multiple Konami-supported formats.
Doesn’t require extra cards, can be even more welcoming to new players, refreshing for all players, allows for ppl to choose how they want to play the game, etc. I can’t see a world where multiple formats is a net negative
I think you guys should introduce yourselves every episode for that professionalism. Also gives yourself some kind of authority on knowing the game. Helps for people who just jumped into a random episode also when they didn't listen to the first.
1:59:54 Ah, this chat is just wonderfull. Josh: "We need Nibiru 2." Chat: "Nibitwo, the Modern Being", "What are you going to do about the second one, Onoki?"
My friend brought up an idea that I think could work in YuGiOh: the player going second, initially draws 6 cards in their starting hand, but does not draw on their first turn.
This would allow the going-second player a higher chance to draw hand traps to interact with their opponent on the first turn
Yeah I have had the same idea, this seems like such an easy master rule change to make going second better and prevent the frustration of drawing a now dead hand trap for turn going second
@@Alx501 and also you could save time by ff early if you know your hands not gonna beat that instead of waiting for the heart of the cards moment
One added part of maxx c’s absence influencing the tcg to be a different environment is that decks that have less than 9 non-engine spots have a real spot in the tcg game, where in OCG something like our all gass combo piles, cope tear brews etc just wouldn’t be possible without giving up on the maxx c counters in exactly those decks that lose hard to maxx c.
Not really just look at master duel super heavy is suoer top tier because all meta decks lose to max c because all of them special sumon like 4 times
the thing I mostly saw online on OCG comments on the tcg event is that: there was much less commentary on Maxx C, and much more commentary on stuff like people excited to play Merli or Toad again, or being upset that Meow Meow Mu or Electromute were banned. Maybe 10% of the comments I saw had to do with Maxx C.
I think TCG players care a lot more about the card, which is kind of hilarious.
Also a poll on "did you like it" was 52/48 in favor but that could have been misleading because some people were like "no because I don't want to make a UR for a three day event"
OCG discourse I find to be far less terminally online than TCG. Maybe it's how gaming culture is in other countries, but I know in the West, gaming communities are rather toxic and insular.
Congrats on reaching the 3rd episode as most podcasts die after the 3rd ep but you two have been pretty consistent.
Something that was talked about but really should've been expanded on is how gray the area between a combo and mid-range deck is and how it's hard to define the difference between the two in a game that's just now fundamentally different.
Nibiru 2: The Rock’s Revenge
Buff going second
1. Some sort of mulligan
2. Traps from hand for second player on first turn of game
A combo deck is one that can execute and present its wincon in a single turn. It doesn't need to be OTKing necessarily since turn 1 is the only turn that actually matters anymore, but if your goal is presenting a win con from any hand and telling the opponent good luck chances are you're playing some kind of combo deck in the modern game.
One interesting topic would be a discussion about cards specific decks need to be a good choice in the meta. As example what do decks like salamangreat need to be really competitive? Taking about 3 - 5 fan favorite decks would be great. Also the thought process could be really interesting.
Listening to this while im waiting for superheavy samurai npc no. 972 to finish his first turn in master duel 😬
Combo looks to create most (if not all) of its end board on the same turn. Mid range and control can built up and be more flexible with their board before their kill turn. SHS and DLink want to build their endboard in one turn and eliminate threats (if they go first) and go for the kill on their attack turn. Mid range and control tend to have more flexibility, creating some different boards for their turn before resuming towards their end board which will typically vary.
I mean considering how often Dragon Link likes to end on Seals pass, I'd consider it more midrange.
@@andleepfarooqui7874 Seals pass is for one of three possibilities: 1. They're a new player and Seals is a safe card to open with, 2. The opponent used Droll or Maxx C and the DLink player doesn't want to play too far through either, or 3. The DLink player bricked and they couldn't do more than Seals pass.
DLink can pivot to more midrange with the Bestials though I'd argue that this primarily a Bestial deck with other dragons there to fill out the deck.
Y’all should do one on how most decks needing just a little support to be good and either getting a floodgate or something useless instead
Can't wait for the retro format episode
Finally, someone else says it. The worst thing konami ever did was print extenders in the extra deck. It means the game is a binary of Do Nothing or Full Combo with nothing in between.
Combo decks in Magic can absolutely be very fast. Generally what you gain in speed you lose in resiliency. Dredge for instance I'd say it's pretty fair to call a graveyard combo deck than can assemble a massive board very early, but it dies to graveyard hate, which in Magic is very strong.
If you're at all interested in finding out more, Beseech Storm, Neobrand, and Oops, All Spells are a few such fast combo decks. The older you go in formats (formats are basically defined by cutoff dates that restrict them to whatever was printed on the more recent side of the cutoff), the faster combo is, but the better the answers are which keeps blazing fast glass cannon decks from taking over the format, like in Legacy with Force of Will.
In MTG combo decks develop a kinda cult around them. Like the "Storm" combo deck have multiple extremely active discords in addition to a very popular RUclips channel dedicated to just a version of Storm in the Legacy format.
Feels like older decks like x-sabers, or geargia karakuri they are like the other card games in the sense that they play slow until they assemble their pieces
22:45 LESGOOO im still abusing Misc at 3 on MD. if Misc resolves, Dino can literally beat any decc in yugioh. so then you just throw in dark ruler and evenly and the deck is insane
So I’ve been a Darklord main ever since I traded for a play set of Darklord Zerato and it actually became quite good at locals after the release of Valhalla, Athena, and Superbia. Basically it was just a big beater deck, and I played it up until halfway into XYZ era.
When I came back to Yugioh right when Link summoning became a thing, I thought my deck was boned, but I found out that link summoning actually allowed my Darklords to be a combo FTK deck. After playing that for a few years of playing it like that, I’ve pretty much forgotten how to play a normal “battle” deck. If I don’t combo off with a deck and end the game immediately, it feels like I did something wrong. It’s like some kind of mental block.
Anyways… I typed out this anecdote of mine just to say that playing combo gives you brain rot.
Really enjoying the podcast so far. Is there any chance to get these on Apple podcast, too? Don't want to have to get spotify for this one alone. :)
I needed this in my life
Great podcast 😎🎉
As a Magic Player primarily and have dabbled in Yugioh here and there. Magic has these types of effects in the game and they are generally accepted.
For instance, "Force of Will" is a staple card in "Legacy" format that acts as Maxx C for combo decks and is just considered part of the game and is understood as healthy.
Yes, Maxx C could turn some players away coming in to yugioh but I think then the problem lies in the fact that Yugioh only has that "Legacy" format where most of the card pool is legal.
No new players are playing MTG Legacy format, these are all grizzled veterans.
Yugioh is a monolith of a game as is and needs to have some sort of rotation that way cards like Maxx C can come and go as the format's needs change.
It's not like the yugiboomer archetypes are all that viable anyway. Just make a Standard and Legacy format then unban Maxx C in what would be Legacy (basically what is played as Yugioh now)
Power creep serves as set rotation
99 percent of the card pool is legit unplayable
It's nice to see Farfa acting more mature and composed instead of the usual overexcited act.
Traptrix Sera is a good example of a good tutor
Farfa solution to combo deck is literally draw the out he's become the r/masterduelmeta
the worst times were at the beginning of pendulum (Pepe), at the beginning of Link (Gouki etc.) and at the introduction of Danger cards.
Those were the times I genuinely wished for more MAXX "C" like cards to play.
Hey I am not sure if this would be a interesting topic but the problems with generic cards (especially extra deck cards like Barron , etc ) I feel like to many deck just go into generic extra decks or these generic extra decks cards break to many arc types like superheavy samurai
53:23 he just says it how he intends it, Farfa just sits smiling, doesnt listen and then Josh says it back, Farfa doesn't listen to his words again and then tries to tell him he wasnt saying what hes saying and then confidently with Chest asks chat to run it back 🤣 loved the discussion as a whole but fuck me that was my favourite part 😆
I was screaming at farfa in my head during that lmfao
@@lemlem35 I do that too, all the time 😂 like, how very dare you 🤣
Combo decks in master duel are why i started playing vanietys ruler in drytron. Someone setting 4 negates is no different from floodgates so why just play floodgates. At least you get to concede faster and move on with your day
NIBIRU 2 ... on the 8th summon you can send all your opponents monsters from the field to the banishment face down; then summon this card to the opponents field (no cards or effects can be activated after this cards activation) level 13 (Rock/Dark/0 ATK/0 DEF)
easy combo killer and now you have to put up a floodgate against this card and not an generic negate if you want to stop the rock
For those who don’t know Jerome designed nibiru shifter and dark ruler in 2017 when zoo was a good deck so that specifically nibiru so that it hit combo and not midrange however when they came out the power level of everything had increased meaning nibiru and dark ruler are better against midrange than combo
Saw a few games between Joshua and some viewers. Very fun and interactive games. No monster spam but still long chains with negates and interruptions. And no one was stunned. Really not a fan of spam decks.
Ending on just a s.p. little knight after turn zero looks much better than a full board of negates and interruptions.
Every deck in Yugioh has combos. Because of that, I wouldn't define combo decks by the end board. That leads to strong decks all being classified as combo. I would consider combo decks the decks that are designed to streamline one specific combo rather than gathering resources or reacting to the opponent. Meta decks like Snake-Eyes have many branching combos to play around whatever board the opponent makes. Something that reactive should be classified as something else.
Late, but just to add, combo decks in MTG usually fall into either deterministic or non-deterministic. Deterministic combo being like how you descrived, something like Splinter Twin combo where you assemble Splinter Twin + Deceiver Exarch/Pestermite which results in an infinite loop which usually equals a game winning state. An infamous case of non-deterministic combo though thats more akin to how YGO combo works is a deck commonly known as Eggs, which does non-deterministic loops you need to play out because the win is not guaranteed taking 5-10 minute turns to possibly not win. A crucial combo piece was banned strictly because of time reasons to make the deck inconsistent enough to not be tournament viable. The only real place you can watch full power eggs is Stanislav Cifka in the Modern portion of Pro Tour Return to Ravnica.
Well, I am glad people have the same thinking around combo decks and are seeing the same problems. As a control player, I have been waiting a very long time, do you think there will be another competitive (trap) control deck in the TCG?
Also, what would it take for normal traps to comeback into Yugioh (not just a sidedeck)?
I do kind of like how a few decks just have random pendulum cards that never really aim to pendulum summon except in very rare occasions. Decks like Nouvelles and Plunder Patroll have one or two pendulum monsters that have useful pendulum effects but never really want to pendulum summon, at least not in any build I've seen
I remember when people thought pendulums would have a different numbered scale on each side
Josh I was not pleasantly surprised when they hit SHS in the TCG
An episode about Maxx c would be soooooo awesome
hey, toad is now under Josh
One thing thats I think is essential to the whole yugiboomer “combo means I cant play” argument is that you don’t need a lot to make a “bad” deck pass turn. Most up to date players wouldn’t consider tour-guide into sangan make SP, search ash oppressive. But if the boomer plays a deck that has one or two attempts to make a play, those guaranteed two interruptions equal “I dont get to play.”
I think the combo decks are just annoying as it's low amount of interaction.
I think one thing that you can use as a kind of through-line for other TCG’s to Yugioh (as far as Combo decks go) is that fragility and singularity are the two things that are the most similar between games; generally, in my eyes atleast, Combo decks above all else are fragile, glass cannon decks that are designed to do (basically) one thing exactly, and generally win on the spot because of it, and almost certainly lose if they can’t achieve that specific result. I would consider midrange in Yugioh though to be less about when the game is trying to be decided by, and more about what the level of each threat is; in other words, a midrange deck in Yugioh is just playing a consistent suite of threats that individually aren’t game winning, but are dangerous enough to need answers. Midrange decks generally win by having more “midrange” threats than your opponent has answers to. Atleast that’s how is see it, coming from an MTG background originally.
By that definition then most decks in yugioh are midrange, focusing not on a big blowout card but a whole suite of omni negate boss monsters. Stuff like Centurion with Calamity lock or Branded Gimmick Puppet lock are that definition of combo deck. Yugioh also has far too many cards designed to stop your opponent from playing the game but that's a whole nother problem. How crazy would it be if MTG printed a 2 mana card that said for the next 5 turns your opponent cannot tap any lands of (insert color).
53:49 I like the Farfa YEP Pepega math moment there.
Josh: Link 2 easier than 3
Farfa: No, you mean link 3 is harder than 2
Josh: ok :)
it's the same c'mon pal...
in my eyes a combo deck can be defined by how many steps there are that contribute to getting to their basic endboard.
something like 1-5 not a combo deck 5-10 mid range deck 11+ combo deck.
like swordsoul is a mid range deck to me because its basically "insert mo ye copypasta" and thats basically the main game plan unless you get lucky with draws like tenyi extenders etc.
meanwhile dragon link summons like 20 monsters which is absolutely more than 11 steps.
edit. i think swordsoul can be described as a "mid range deck with combo potential"
Lets talk counters, so bushido counter...😂😂
1:16:23 Depends, if the winrate is so low that it really isn't competitively viable, these decks are fine.
At some point you, too, Farfa and Joshua, can probably just let such an opponent have their once-in-a-blue-moon win.
Maxx C, of course, doesn't change the winrate of combo decks enough to matter and does nothing to solve the underlying problem of non-fun games, or games that are only fun for one player.
regarding maxx c. I think an errata and making it legal on both TCG and OCG might be a good solution.
Why not errata maxx c so you can’t activate it if you have any face up card on the field? It’ll still be a great going second hand trap while making sure you can’t set up negates going first strat with maxx c backup (and maxx c will be a brick card if you’re going first generally speaking)
You guys are 5 years out of date about pendulum decks. Since electrumite's been banned almost no pile multi archetype pendulum decks have been playable. Endymion must be pure for spell counters, magicians need to be pure for rank 4s, dracoslayer needs to be pure for synchros, majespecters are locked, vaylantz is basically pure, DDs have heavy locks, superheavy samurai is played more with non pend decks than pend decks. The only pendulum pile that kind of succeeds is zefra, and that mostly relied on verte or halqdon. Symphonics really didn't succeed at all.
Perhaps yugioh has developed to the point where deck types have become deck descriptors whereby a deck can either be described as aggro or midranged and combo heavy or combo light at the same time
> Make it to turn 2 against dragonrulers and it is over
📝
Farfa, a pleb: "imagine if you could synchro without a tuner and the level requirement doesn't exist"
Me, an intellectual: "you can fusion without using fusion spells"
Does anyone have a link to the ocg response to the Tryout Duel event in Master Duel?
Hopefully there would be an episode on Master Duel animations
I dislike them
It makes turn time far too long
Like i get it's supposed to look more flashy but it's at the expense of gameplay
Having to wait for the couple second animations for the decks which already take couple minutes to play is beyond annoying.
soo Apple Podcast still coming or??
The levels
Combo
OTK one turn kill
FTK first turn kill
I think you can describe decks in Yu-Gi-Oh by how they aim to win via card advantage. Combo seeks to go infinite in card advantage to establish *something*. What that something is isn't relevant. Control decks aim to bring your opponents card advantage down. They're not aiming to increase their own *primarily* their aim is to lower the opponents until they can't do anything anymore. Midrange seeks to do something in the middle consistently for a prolonged period. Gain a bit of advantage, lower the opponent a bit, and eventually arrive at either plused so much they win, or the opponent negatived so much they lose.
All decks play the same in yugioh
@@DragonBallsolosyourverse is this bait or genuinely your dog shit opinion
Farfa doesn't seem to grasp that both players having fun is more important than just him having fun.
Most Yugioh players don't.
He doesn't seem to grasp it which is why he even argues against them. Makes sense.
Farfa is the same guy who thinks yugioh takes huge iq and all other card games are brain dead
He would say you just dont get it or your not smart enough.
That's legit how he thinks btw, He said as much on rarran's stream.
Much better pacing this time around. Transitions will for sure get smoother as you guys do more of these!
Also just a really interesting topic overall.
There’s something to be said about how the more obnoxious form of a combo deck is something you know when you see it, but drawing the line of what is considered obnoxious is still tough to do.
They talk about unbreakable combo boards but unless you are talking about Infernity or something, then I don't think most Combo decks have an answer to Dark Ruler/Sphere Mode/Forbidden Droplets
It's a tough argument, on the one hand, an absolutely ludicrous ftk is entertaining to watch and play, like the 3 firewall infernity ftk that had to go through lizardraw/guitartle lines. Just utterly silly
But on the other hand, one person is playing Yu-Gi-Oh at that point, and realistically it's more solitaire than Yu-Gi-Oh, I'm going through the same process I've gone through at my desk just clicking buttons
would be able to get that translated reddit discussion link about maxx c
We're was this podcast years ago?
they forgot about zefra and maybe majespecter when talking about pendulum decks that are not combo
Yugioh is weird because the usual counter to a combo deck is aggro but in Yugioh the combo decks are the only 'aggro' decks as they try to end the game as quick as possible.
I think it's better to consider them aggro decks rather than combo. Combo is usually attempting to break the game's resource system but yugioh doesn't have one so in a way, almost all decks are kind of combo decks in the way they operate.
These episodes are fun, but I feel like they still need some structure to the discussion, sometimes I feel like the discussion devolves into ramblings and tangents (good ramblings and tangents to be fair) instead of focusing on the main topic, but I believe those are things that you guys will iron out over time.
As for the classification of decks, in my opinion is best to classify decks based on resource usage. The way the YGO community uses the term "combo" I feel is a misnomer, instead I'd say it would be more accurate to say that they are Aggro decks. For me, combo decks are decks that throw everything they got at the board on turn 1, leaving no room for followup.
For instance, recently I played a Cyberse mirror match in Master Duel, where I went first, messed up the combo a bit, then my opponent was able to break my board but didn't manage to kill me, but when it came back to me in turn 3, I realized I couldn't do anything against his Accesscode Talker because I exhausted most of my ED. This is not too dissimilar to aggro decks from MtG or Hearthstone, that run out of gas relatively fast, so you if they didn't kill you by turn 5 or 6, they'll most likely lose.
If instead you try to classify decks by number of summons, endboards or things like that you run into problems, because not only different decks work differently, but endboards and number of summons is also a always moving goalpost as we get new sets and new archetypes that power creep the previous ones. So I feel like is better to classify decks according to their ability to do follow up. Can they play in turn 3 if their board gets broken? Can they play on turn 5? How is the grind game of the deck?
Some tangents you guys ended up discussing were about turn 1 plays, linearity and interactivity. The idea that YGO decks always to the same thing is kinda real, most decks have a singular goal, combo or endboard they're trying to achieve, which kinda invalidates one of the core features of a card game, which is the idea that you have to adapt your play to the hand you drew, which sometimes you do have to do in YGO, but the linearity and ultra consistency of modern decks eliminates that to some degree.
That said tho, there's a quote from Sid Meier that I really like that goes "A game is a series of interesting choices". Sid Meier is, among other things, the developer of many strategy and management games, like the Civilization series, and I feel like that applies particularly well to strategy games, including card games like YGO. When a player summons Mathmech Circular turn 1 and proceeds to go full combo, how many interesting decisions is that player actually making in their first turn? The whole combo has already been developed by someone else, they're just going through the motions, sometimes without really making any decisions on their own.
Then again, that is not a problem that's exclusive to games that are linear or ultra consistent. I used to play hearthstone and there's a old meme of people calling it Curvestone, because even tho you always had a different hand and you always had to adapt to the hand you drew, 90% of the time, in most midrange decks, the best play was always to play the card that used all your mana, basically playing "on curve", so people started to call the game Curvestone. In this situation, even tho you don't always do the same combo, even tho you don't have access to your whole deck like in YGO, you're still very limited on the number of "interesting decisions" you make during the game.
Either way, now I'm the one that's rambling. I hope one day you guys can bring in people with some background on card game design to weight in those topics, I think that would be very interesting. Great podcast.
47:20
55:50
NOOOOO Don’t get rid of my Salads 😢
There’s a few generic extra deck monsters I think could be done away with to wrangle combo a bit. Baronne and Apo being the ones I mainly think of, and also being the two monsters that a pendulum deck would combo into and sit on (generally because whatever archetype they belong to, does not do anything outstanding enough to play it as anything but a combo pile).
I really wish Baronne had a tuner or non tuner requirement. And apo idk how you resolve that.
A friend of mine is adamant that a duel links style banning system would eliminate all those times you see these cards next to eachother. I maintain that style of list would become too long, and be a bit too unintuitive to new people. But man. Some times it does feel that bad
The other issue with the Duel Links ban list is that you can't exactly track the limits and semi limits in a physical format unless you have multiple printed ban lists, more intrusive deck checks at locals, and no effective indicator on limited cards. Duel Links tags cards that are on the list so you have an active understanding that it can be the only one.
@@otterfire4712 idk if that last note is really a problem. There isn’t a physical indicator I can only have so many raigeki but I know from looking at the list once.
I’m not sure what you mean by multiple printed banlists?
@@GrieveIV multiple printed ban lists as in printing multiple ban lists on paper and putting them up on walls or tables so players can have easy access and know how many of the semi limited cards a player can have.
There are a lot of cards on the list and to include a limit system like Duel Links into the physical card game would muddy the waters that much more. There's also the fact that Duel Links deck construction is a far smaller size compared to the TCG so having a single limited card isn't as harsh of a restriction.
@@otterfire4712 idk a single of any limited card is still very restrictive. More so than the tcg. But yea. It’s definitely make everything more complicated.
@@GrieveIV why change what isn't broken? The card game on both fronts (OCG and TCG, not DL) have maintained their design for the ban list system since the earliest days of the game and I'd think 99.9% of the playerbase is content with the system (what's actually banned/unbanned is another issue that's mostly up to Konami).
I sit in a very awkward spot with combo decks. I hate boring, long, linear combo decks like Dragon Link but I love very difficult non-linear combo strategies like PUNK Zombies. Either way my biggest complaint with combo decks just boils down to how unfair the end board is. DLink, Libromancer Mikanko, etc. aren't that obnoxious to fight in the long run but stuff like Super Heavy Samurai makes me wanna rip my hair out lol
Referring to Dragon link as linear is craaaaaazy, also maybe boring for the other player but otherwise a straight up lie
@spekda1706 Dragon Link may have a flexible way as to how it gets to the end board but the end board is always the same. You always make striker dragon for boot sector you always make romulus for ravine. Every hand is the same bodies in to the same extenders. I never interesting deck building decisions or unique end boards. Maybe linear is the wrong word but I never feel like I'm making interesting decisions playing or watching DLink played. A lot of your end board is pretty much guaranteed.
I see Block, i click
#unlocktheblock
Is everything ultimately combo ?
Does Josh ever talk about Rikka Sunavalon in this episode?
The combo/aggro/control paradigm isn't even helpful for describing yugioh decks. By every other card game's metrics all yugioh decks aside from maybe set 5 pass decks are combo decks based on the sheer volume of cards played and the sequencing involved. They're all aggro decks based on how many resources they play up front and how quickly games end, and they're all control decks based on the way the vast majority of decks seek to build some combination of floodgates, omninegates, and unaffected monsters meant to control the board and deprive your opponent of options.
People say "combo" as if it actually means anything, all they really mean is "deck that has way more actions than other decks so I have to wait longer before I get to play again than normal".
It feels like so much of Yugioh is just fucking busywork. Moving cards from game zone to zone to zone constantly. It would be nice to just cut the filler and make some big guys you just slap down from hand without moving the pieces around for 2 minutes.
People always slander floo and then are okay with tear fusion summoning three times on the opponent's turn. At least floo can't do it on turn zero like tear
Most important question, when are we ever going to see another smokescreen decklist?
As long as combos have been an institution in the game, it is missing the forest for the trees. Forget the boomer arguments at this point. It is an issue of interactivity. Between players and their cards
The problem would be long zero interaction 15 min summoning chains.
Free the pendulum. Let me pend summon 6 from the ED, Konami, you cowards.
Suprised not to hear ty-phon mentioned. I think more card designs like that could replace maxx c and droll while combo decks are still running about
The line between combo and mid-range in yugioh is super blurry.
Despia is fair combo
24:00
I want to say for the most part I really agree and appreciate both views on these topics. However I want to pause and discuss something Josh said 1:05:00 .
Josh states (Paraphrased) "Im not worried about the single Omni Baronne, Im worried about the Baronne and what it's paired with."
This is a major issue on its own. You see how Josh is fine with a free No-Cost Omni? (Using him as an example but not attacking him to be clear) He is, like many of you, trained dogs who are essentially saying "Oh Im fine jumping through a Ring of Fire, my issue is with the Shark Tank I have to jump over AFTER the Ring of Fire." Yugioh Combo Decks have literally trained players to dismiss how oppressive Free Negates are, after all, You've already learned to deal with the Ring of Fire by being burned time and time again long ago that now you can leap through it blindfolded. That is the issue with Powercreep. First it starts simple...Then it gets a bit harder and you'll rough it out. Then it has to get tougher or you wont rush out to buy the new $300 Staple. By the end of it you are fine shrugging your shoulders saying "You ended on only 2 Omni Negates? Oh I got this in the bag!" Meanwhile slower decks that dont get love from Konami get shut down IMMEDIATELY from just a single Negate if they dont have room to ALSO run staple "Outs" in their Deck.
Take simple cards like Myutant Beast. Beast is a single Spell Negate per turn that requires you to banish 1 card as Cost. It has a limit on what it affects and has a Cost to try and disrupt your opponent. Take Invoked Mechaba. It has an Omni, but it requires THE SAME TYPE OF CARD YOU ARE NEGATING as discard. Now compare both of these "Fair" negates to something like Borreload Savage Dragon, Appolousa, Baronne which cost nothing(Appo has an atk cost but it isnt Once Per Turn either). You can easily build these and halt the game for your opponent unless they play specific Outs.
Combo Decks are inherently bad in Yugioh because they promote a Toxic Gameplay Experience. No matter what Combo, the game MUST get more toxic in a way that entices players to chase after the new cards with their wallets, and use over older stuff. If I could walk into a duel with a deck made 5 years ago with no changes and win Konami wouldnt be incentivizing Commercial Growth. And thus they have to continuously write more potent cards and effects. They are Fortnite Builders building a Sky Base with no Glider to save them when they run out of materials to build up...And one of these days one of the foundations of that base is gonna collapse and the entire franchise will crumble. Its already at a boiling point where players who literally made a living off the game are quiting
This was an inevitability caused by having both no resource system *and* no rotation (having either of them without the other would have mostly solved this issue). Other games having resource systems means they can have gradated effects based on cost. Yugioh for the most part can't, its effects are very binary. Destroy a monster, regardless of type or stats or cost. Negate a card, regardless of type or cost. It doesn't even have damage dealt to monsters as an effect. It's extremely difficult to make 'sidegrades' in Yugioh. The game has constantly created awkwardly worded work around ways to exempt cards from effects. Monsters are given the text unable to be targeted, so now we have cards that destroy a chosen monster without targeting them. Monsters are immune to destruction, which causes an uptick in cards that banish or spin into deck. Too many cards interact with the banish zone so now we have banidh face down. They created "send a monster from the field to the graveyard" so you can destroy things without destroying things. We're setting monsters as spells in the S/T zone as a form of removal because we're running out of ways to remove things without them plussing. Generic extra deck monsters with costless omni negates were an inevitability. Look forward to boss monsters that can't be responded to, negated, or used as tribute and spell speed 4 omnis.
Yugioh's upward development is playground rules "double dare-triple dare-triple dog dare-triple dog dare times infinity no takebacks" tier.
@@tinfoilslacks3750 Comparing Shooting Quasar Dragon's summoning requirements to Baronne pretty much answers the issue of combo decks. I remember dedicating AN ENTIRE DECK for Fabled Quasar and it was still gimmick, now Snakes can pump a Baronne out just with a single Jet (Synchro tuners were also a mistake for infinite climbing) as a bonus play.
If they wanted "protection" using the omni-negates was a cheap attempt, they should have made a new efffect like "if a card in your possession would be affected by your opponent's card effect: negate that effect" so you can still "protect the castle" but not outright prevent your opponent from actually playing the game. Then back and forth interruptions would be traded between players in the form of removal or 1 for 1 trades like Ash, unlike the "i wont let you play the game" mentality YGO had since day 1.
Omni negates should have been reserved for hard to summon bos monsters or the Solemn brigade, that's the main reason the previous format was so enjoyable (and even FIRE format before it becomes Apollo/Baronne/Savage shitfest) compared to would-be formats none liked such as SHS running 20 handtraps + building a 7 negate boards with just 1 of their 15 one card combo starters (no hate for shs specifically, i got the deck because im an arc v enjoyer, this is just a prime example)
Timestamps?
On the grand scale of games, Yugioh is a "combo" game. A Magic player will look at Bujins and still call it a Combo Lockdown deck if it were exactly translated to Magic.
What's wrong with Dark world combos?
When josh says we need nibiru #2…I think the effect should be if your opponent summons 5 or more monsters tribute all monsters, your opponent can’t activate monsters effects after this effect resolved :)
But then you would just use it on the 5th summon whereas you need to time the summon of nibiru
That's Just toxic lol
18:06 Is it really subjective, though?
That word is usually used to write off personal opinions as insignificant, not indicative of the general view, but it does seem to be clear what is fun in this game; it might not be possible to deduce that a priori but it can be understood in hindsight.
It's not really an issue of subjectivity but of the topic requiring an empirical assessment rather than just thinking about it.
YELLOW
Combo has a sweet spot where it's fun for both players. For example your opponent has 2 handtraps so instead of putting up 3 omni negates you only put up 1. And then your opponent draws for turn and has 4 cards to use
Lol, no it isn't
Draw no hand traps lose game isn't the best as you watch your opponent combo for 10 minutes.
@@apertureb2247almost no high level yugioh match goes that way. If you lost it’s not because you didn’t draw hand traps
@justinmathis8078 That's almost always how the first round goes. After siding sure it's much more even but the first game of a set of yugioh historically is player 1 sets up negates and player 2 prays they can break it.
@@apertureb2247 not true. Watch more high level play. The player who goes second wins game one a lot more than you think. Game 1 almost always last 3-4-5 turns. It’s not as one sided as bad players make it seem. At a high level every game is a grind