Is the Biblical Manhood Industry a Scam?
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- Опубликовано: 21 фев 2024
- The team discusses a recent piece by Karen Swallow about the scam of the Biblical Manhood Industry and how ministry leaders and politicians prioritize giving people what they want rather than what they need.
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I'm reminded of something that pastor Paul Washer said. He was asked once: "Who's the greatest preacher today?" and he replied by saying "You won't know them because they're probably someone preaching to about 5 people in a jungle somewhere." A profoundly stark contrast to what we see in modern day Christianity, especially in the US.
I remember hearing him say that, as well.
I wish they'd go back to showing the full show rather than these bits and pieces. I liked the context and continuity.
Same. I liked the whole discussion
Totally understand! But the full show is still available to listen to wherever you get your podcasts, and the video version is available for free on our Patreon. We put the link in the description of this video
@@HolyPost Okay, on the one hand, wow! No content creator has ever bothered to respond to me before, so thank you! On the other hand, it's unlikely that I'll bother to do that. I rarely (almost never) watch podcasts. I'm on RUclips pretty much all the time for work, so this is where it's convenient for me to watch you. Sure, I could seek you out at those other places, but I'm not as likely to do so. That takes a greater level of commitment on the part of the audience - fine for some, but you'll end up losing or dissatisfying some of us this way. Just saying. 🙂
@VJacquette. Yep, they’ve lost me as a viewer, sorry. And I don’t get how they’re saying we can still access the whole show for free, cuz you have to sign up to Patreon and the minimum fee for that appears to be $5/mo. If that’s incorrect, then their instrux need clarification. Loved Phil, Skye, Kaitlyn, will miss them.
@@HolyPost how is it free to view if we have to pay a monthly fee? instrux not clear . . . love you guys but this move is disappointing.
It may say something about American Christianity that, as a non-American, I had to look up “biblical manhood” to see what it was. America is, to the outside world, a very strange place. Do Americans realise that? Or do they think they are “normal”?
Sadly, I’d say we’re pretty insulated and self-righteous, and we think we set the standard for everyone else. Americans who don’t think that are maligned as “woke.”
@@Wren_Farthing And those who do realise it are "awake". I am friends with a few. But not enough - yet.
@@robwhythe793 I love the optimistic tone of "yet," and will stand with you in it!
The best European stock left Europe and settled the americas. After the meat grinder of multiple world wars that removed the best genetics from multiple generations, Europeans men really shouldn’t comment on manliness.
@@bobbobberson5627and you wonder why people on the left call people like you fascists.
There absolutely are pastors doing and saying exactly what they describe at the end, I know a bunch of them (and try to be one myself). You just never hear of them because that doesn't generate attention.
I refuse to go to a Men's Prayer Breakfast at church, because most men in the church have made an idol out of sports, and that's all they want to discuss before they even get into what they really came to talk about in the first place---which is Jesus and what He has done in our lives! And I don't want to be thought of as a woos because I don't want to talk about guns, and cars and sports! At least not at church! Look--I love football as much as anyone, but I leave that at the church house door---I'm there to worship God and God alone.
@@bobbobberson5627 I even get irked when I see people come to church with the T-shirts of their favorite football team. To me, they may as well be wearing an Iron Maiden T-shirt! Who are we here to worship?
Sorry for your experience. Had one too
What would you think, if the pastor wore team colors on a Sunday? My church in suburban Chicago had a pastor from Wisconsin. He always wore a green-and-gold necktie on a Sunday in which the Bears played the Packers.
I was in Door County, Wisconsin the weekend that the Giants beat the Packers for the NFC Championship. I bet half of the churches that I saw had some pro-Packer comment on the signboard. I remember, "God, one more NFC title for Favre please."
@@kentfrederick8929 That pastor is wrong. There is a time and a place for being a sports fan and the House of Yahweh is a Holy place set aside for Him, and a house of prayer---and not the cute little "prayers for your team to win", either, which I think is blasphemous!
@@impalaman9707 Back in 1986, we had a pastor who was a Biblical scholar. He had a prayer for the Chicago Bears on Super Bowl Sunday.
I asked him after church why he didn't offer a prayer, before the start of the 1984 NLCS. Our pastor grew up near Wrigley Field. (HIs father was the pastor at a Methodist church in East Lakeview.) He even used to sneak into the park on his way home from school. His idea of a fun evening was reading Kirkgegaard while listing to a Cubs road game on WGN-AM.
He said that even God's powers had their limits, and getting the Cubs into the World Series was probably too much for God.
To me, that isn't blasphemous. To quote a line from Sheldon Cooper, "It's funny, because it's true."
Excellent commentary. I do miss your former format. This just feels like bits and pieces, and not a coherent whole, plus I loved the opening segment of " news." with Phil and the other two of you jumping in with snarky observations. Will you ever return to that format? Just wondering. Not all of us can jet set around the country to see you in person. Your show has been a vital lifeline to many of us stranded believers.
You can still listen or watch the whole episode via their website.
would have loved for the video to be just Kaitlyn saying "yes" and that's it 🤣
😂
I have to say, Kaitlyn's body language expressions speak novels!
8:05 "And where are the political leaders who stand up and say, 'I know you're wanting X but what we really need as a country, what we really need as a civilization is Y'?"
You just described a big problem of democracy. Give me what I want or I'll put in someone who will.
Worst form of government, except for all those others that have been tried…
I know X is a problem but which social media site is Y? Seems like it must be pretty good to be the solution to X. Kinda suspicious that its coming from the government though
While I’m sure there are some well meaning people who present these “biblical”concepts to the masses with the intention to help. It does appear to be scammy.
I mostly have an issue with the misusing of the Bible to reinforce ideas and social constructs that I don’t believe the Bible was intended to address specifically.
Excellent conversation! More christians need to hear this.
I attended a church some time ago where "manhood" was pushed by the pastor. He used this concept to prey on men. His misogynism and authoritarianism were always on display but because he hailed from a "premier" Christian university in the area, and he followed "godly" conservative pastors in the area, we thought it was just an idiosyncracy.
About a year ago I read a book by Brian Mclaren and he talks about the different levels of leadership and how we have level 1 or 2 leaders who are trying to lead lever 3 or 4 members. It brought a lot of clarity for me and sounds a lot like this discussion. These things are what pastors should be talking about but they aren't to this level yet.
I saw a meme which pictured Jesus with bullet belts crossing his chest and an AR-15 in his hands. The caption was "Can you imagine if Jesus had 2nd amendment rights"?
Ugh.
The fact there was a picture of Jesus at all, with or without an AR 15, is unbiblical in and of itself (Leviticus 26:1, Exodus 20:4).
I remember C. S. Lewis's discussion of joy. This sounds familiar.
What an interesting conversation about what people THINK they want versus what they truly need! I think the question of what people really need (and its corollary question: do we all need the same thing?) is fascinating and cuts to the heart of what religion should provoke in its devotees. But I don't see that Christianity is really prodding folks to examine themselves (beyond recognizing their depravity). What I see in Christianity is a vigorous defense of what Believers see as sacred and an equally vigorous condemnation of those seen as defiling the sacred. (And defiling the sacred is really easy to do, I've found. You can do it quite accidentally.) It's not just that leaders/pastors/influencers give Christians what they think they want (the evangelical industrial complex/outsourcing pastorship/market-based religion), but more important, these leaders seem to actively discourage honest introspection. Maybe I'm wrong. I'd love to read what others think.
This resonates with me. Honest introspection should be encouraged (would the Biblical Manhood Industry call that "effeminate"?). It could be that pastors in general aren't encouraging it out of concern it that it leads to attitudes like "faith is merely a personal matter" and "I don't need to go to church." Those concerns are legitimate, but downplaying the individual's direct interaction with God would be an overcorrection. What bothers me is the trend toward landing on a particular theology and then just doing apologetics. Scripture is given to all Christians everywhere and across all time. We were all gifted with the Bible, with intellect, with the Holy Spirit for discernment, and with each other. It's right to engage with the theological writings of past generations, but theology shouldn't be treated as a static body of info that can delivered systematically, not to mention packaged and sold for easy consumption.
@@Wren_Farthing Yes! You've articulated clearly what I was getting at when you identified the problem as “landing on a particular theology and then just doing apologetics.” What I'm seeing is believers professing rather than probing, digging in to a given position rather than discovering new insights. Perhaps I am not looking in the right places. Can anyone tell me where to find a dynamic, searching Christianity rather than one that is defensive and reactionary?
@@user-bz2wm4ks6y If you haven’t tried a local church, that’s where I’d start, and I’d avoid any that mix political ideology into their messaging.
@@Wren_Farthing Lol! I live in Tennessee. Even if politics is not preached from the pulpit - and it often is - the "correct" political position is assumed for any true Christian. I'll keep looking. Thanks brother.
Oh, man -- the mention of Veggie Tales brings a tear to my eye. Big Idea salvaged the Lombard Theater, only to fall down some years later (the company _and_ the building). The last time I went by there some new construction was going on, but I was so disappointed I never even found out what it was. Sad, sad, sad.
- well these construction dudes just built a liverwurst sandwich factory plant in a small town on the Ind O Michigan border man
Yes, yes, yes
Culturally rooted
Good stuff, well articulated. My question would be how do you distinguish between a real physical need & a deeper spiritual desire? Or are there best physical elements (Spanish alimentos) that supplement Spiritual life optimally!?
- remember the song THE REAL ME/The Who
I think there is an assumption in this conversation that Christians magically understand what people need better than they do. Leaders imposing what they think people need and banning what they think people don't need is authoritarian and ecclesiarchy.
I don't think that's what the gang is encouraging, but it's easy to get twisted in this clip.
Repentance is about "turning around" and changing your mind about what you desire most. There is no guarantee people will change when presented with new information, sometimes they need to pursue the wrong thing first.
Yeah, that's true. I took what's being presented here as a pastor being asked to recommend materials on a particular topic (Biblical masculinity/femininity?) and maybe being more discerning than just naming the hottest new books. In general, pointing people toward scripture and the example of Christ carries a lot of weight, especially in answers to questions about identity, like the Biblical Manhood Industry purports to address.
Heresy comes to mind.
Thanks for the great episode.
Checkout Bishop Wooten out of North Carolina. He preaches sound doctrine.
I guess I haven't seen any of these books. I have not seen a single book where it says men need to work on cars to have biblical manhood. Now if they're saying men shouldn't take the lead on things like getting a car fixed, I can't agree with that
I have been criticized as not being a good Christian man, because I'm a stay-at-home father. A good Christian man provides for his family, and lets his wife stay home.
I think that is a bunch of malarkey.
Camo & orange motif drive-thru window church chain... hold on... wait a minute... hear me out...
I always wondered what woke feminists who hate creation think. This was informative.
Jesus is woke.
- d e n o m i nation s : rearrange the lettering -
60-95% of churches, representing roughly 66% of church attenders in the US *_can not_* do the smoke cannon, laser rock show thing (and presumably, the people who attend these churches are not interested in the smoke cannon laser rock show. At least not enough to go out of their way to seek it out.). Skye's fallacy of composition game *_could not_* be stronger.
Good stuff. Looking at real things rather than fantasy
True voices of God can make a living they just don't have to make a lot
"Lost"
This coming on the back of this:
ruclips.net/video/_J1lFZEBq2Y/видео.html
A truly important debate to be having these days! Thanks for sharing.
Jesus is the image of perfect personhood.
It is God's work to conform us to that image. (Romans chapter 8)
In the age to come, the former things (including the various man-created social norms of masculinity and femininity) will have passed away.
I felt like I wanted to agree with video, but there was a lot missing with the discussion. The Pastors are the ones writing the books, most of them have no desire to return to Jesus, and the reduction of the people that are addressing this issue are spread far apart. What we need to do is slay the Dragon of the Christian Hierarchical Institution, return back to the original teachings of Jesus, and marinate in the blood of the Lamb until we become the Meat that Paul tells us we need to become. Matthew 5-7, 10, 13, 18, and 23-25 are crucial to this point. We have divided into so many camps and denominations that what was presented as a Super Bowl Commercial, has some how become a “license for sin.” Love your neighbor, heal the mentally and physically sick, become Jesus, and don’t give the excuse “It’s impossible to live up to Jesus’ expectations” or, “No one can be like Jesus.” If the sons of uneducated carpenters, and sailors could make the most powerful empire in the known world beg for mercy, then everyone can do the same. God’s good life be upon you.
✅ good video
Things that are not biblical manhood: muscles, cigars, cars, boxing, beards, football, farting, grilling. Things that are biblical manhood: strength (fortitude), protection, integrity, service. So basically "stereotypical guy stuff" is not biblical manhood. That all being said, I attended a men's conference recently where biblical manhood was discussed, and never once did any stereotypical guy stuff get brought up in the lectures as being biblical, but that might be the exception to the rule.
It almost seems like filling the pews is the true American religion, rather than a personal relationship with Father, Soon, and Holy Spirit.
That personal relationship can threaten the income from the pulpit to all but the most devoted and secure pastors/teachers
Great comment! My wife was a music minister in a medium sized Baptist church. Her experiences there led her to believe the same - full pews and full collection plates were the ultimate goals of many preachers!
DUKE CEMETERY! Where a believers’ Justin faith goes to die
No.
Men absolutely should act like men. Obviously that doesn’t mean that everyone can’t have likes and dislikes, and certainly we all have different personality traits, and that is a good thing (1 Corinthians 12:14-27). But a biblical, Godly man provides for and protects his family, he prays for his family, he is the spiritual leader in his house, he leads in family worship, keeps old hymnals in the house for music worship, helps his children with memorization of verses and catechism, is spiritually discerning, shares the Gospel, reads good theology books, and unconditionally loves his wife and children.
💯
Men should beat their wives to correct them? I’m sure many “men” would say that that is their role.
I fully and wholly reject this petty tyrant view of the family and the Christian life. It is little more than arrogance and idolatry.
Submit to others out of reverence for Christ - He died in service for us, if we seek to emulate him we should seek to serve others, not demand that others serve us.
“Headship” is insecure men wanting to control others, not serve them.
Men should not act like “men.”
They should act like Christ.
“Manliness” is worldly nonsense, often taking the name in vain and claiming divine sanction for a petty desire for control and power.
It’s charitable to allow for different personalities and tastes, but your definition is still overly specific. What you’re describing is an example of what a Biblical man might look like, but the article’s critique is of an industry that has packaged something like it to sell to other men as a program.
@@Wren_Farthingask yourself if the author of the article or this podcast source would ever critique the big Eva approach to feminism and women’s conferences that push egalitarianism which is a slippery slope to transgenderism; ever wonder why the toxic war on masculinity continues unabated?
It’s because of people like KSP and Phil Vischer.
I wonder if they let women define masculinity in the Bible days, like we do today?
So why do we let men define femininity?
@@mandrinaneelabecause men are the Master Sex and all other sexes exist to be ruled by the Master Sex.
(Basically just take white supremacy rhetoric and replace white with male and it’s all the same arguments.)
@@mandrinaneelaas the kids these days say, “based.”