How did Isildur create the Ghost Army? 🤔👻
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2023
- Prince Isildur and the Origins of the Ghosts Army of the Oathbreakers. And absolutely no picking on Boromir (except that one time 😅)
As it's IMPOSSIBLE for anyone save Eru Iluvatar to alter the death of men, how did Isildur's curse actually turn the Men of the Mountains into Ghosts?
Tolkien Questions Answered
Tolkien Middle Earth Lore |
Gandalf, Tolkien, Wizards, Rings of Power, ROP, LOTR, Lord of the Rings, Return of the King, Frodo, Sam, Elendil, Dagorlad, Sauron, Isildur, Erech, Dunharrow 
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"Two and a half brave warriors..." has me dying, lol!
🤣🤣 Poor Gimli! 🤣🤣
Gimli would agree with this and then boast about how he mighty he was
@@thegreyhavens167 would you count him as a full person if he had a box?
🤣🤣🤣 BEST COMMENT EVER!!!! 🏆🏆🏆
I laughed so hard I think I might have peed a little... 👏🤣♥️🍁🇨🇦
I think Tolkien made it pretty clear that people lay out the terms of a curse and then Eru actually enforces them. I highly doubt Isildur used the ring since he said he never figured out how to use it and ultimately decided to give it to Elrond. It was on that journey that he was slain
Well said, well said! That's certainly a valid way to look at it. 😅
But question for you: you suggest Tolkien made it pretty clear that Eru enforces oaths... where? Where does he make it clear? Can you think of any passages? or any stories?
I only ask because it's a very popular opinion, but one that I can't quite figure out where it came from. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Best I can tell the only real "oath breakers" that Eru ever enforced were the Men of the Mountains and Gollum - any both of those could be attributed to the Ring (and nether mention Eru at all).
Thanks for your help! Would love to hear your feedback. :)
My guess would be by the first oath ever given - Oath of Fëanor and how it worked out for those who swore it.
Interesting.. Thanks for the idea! I like it! 🙂
Though in my personal opinion of the Sims, nothing super naturally bad happened to the Sons of Feanor. They didn't turn to ghosts, or anything dramatic. All that happened was they kept fighting with the other elves, which led to problems, but that was a natural consequence of their actions really. I mean there is no indication that Eru was involved at all to me.... just people behaving badly, and so bad thing happened back to them.
Am I crazy?
I think it isn’t a one size fits all in terms of consequences. It depends on what the path was. The reason the Men of Dunharrow were cursed to linger is because they were afraid of dying. It was essentially an ironic punishment because living endlessly would become unbearable. There can be other consequences to other broken oaths.
Another good example of a curse we see is when Gollum attacks Frodo on Mt. Doom and then the ring, which by this point is absolutely done with Gollum, commands him to be gone and if he touches it ever again he shall be cast into the fire of doom. This exact thing happens shortly after. Tolkien said in a letter that Gollum’s death was caused by Eru and so I think that he was enacting the ring’s curse. Throughout Tolkien’s writings characters have to be very careful with what they say in terms of oaths or laying curses because they will be enforced. It’s also why the fellowship very specifically did not make any oaths to accompany Frodo for the entirety of his journey
Yes Isildur cursed the man of the mountains in the sense of that he accused them that they failed their oath, but they had originally sworn it to Elendil and his sword Narsil. They promised to listen to the call of his kin (blood) whenever they need support and to follow his sword Narsil into battle. That‘s why the reforged sword Anduril is the only weapon that could resist and hurt them and Aragorn the only one that could command them to fulfill their oath.
The fact that they couldn‘t leave middle-earth before fulfilling the oath, is the fact that in Tolkiens world an oath has a very strong and binding meaning, one that goes beyond death and therefore actually Illuvatar himself is the one holding everyone accountable for their oaths.
I’ve always loved that words and oaths and curses can have significant power in Tolkien’s work.
I always thought it was hilarious that Aragorn put his sword to the ghosts throat in the movie. 😂
🤣🤣 Agreed! It also just looks weird in the movie... something about the special effects or something. It looks like his hand is grabbing "air" or something, and they tried to photoshop the ghosts throat into his hand or something 🤣🤣
😂 I guess it’s pretty great overall considering it’s around 20 years old now
Well considering the lore, that blade was the only blade possessed by mankind that could strike any of them down as they were cursed. That is why in the movie the scene played out this way, that was the only blade that could harm them, and it could only do so while wielded by the king of gondor. Aka Aragorn. So while seemingly silly, had you actually payed attention to the movie you would have understood this. But nope, lizard brain took over, lol dont worry i do the exact same thing, i haven’t even read the books, well i read the first one, but most of my knowledge comes from the movies, the hobbit (book) and the first book, combined with awesome videos like this, trust me my lizard brain does the same thing, isnt it interesting how we can be so engrossed in a story, and suddenly pick something out at random to focus on?
@@nickd3157 I fully understand why Aragorn was able to do it. My point is he is already dead. That’s why I find it a little funny. 😂
While I'm not "in depth" with LOTR itself as a whole. I did ask an AI on this very topic after watching the video you presented. It did have some, plausible, speculations on this, when asked.
AI:
"J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings" is rich in its history, lore, and depth, and many elements are open to interpretation. The Oathbreakers, also known as the Dead Men of Dunharrow, were cursed by Isildur because they failed to fulfill an oath they had sworn to him. Their punishment was to remain as restless spirits until they had fulfilled their promise.
Now, as to the "how" Isildur cursed them, it's not explicitly detailed in Tolkien's writings. However, here are some speculative thoughts:
Power of the Oath: In many ancient cultures, oaths were considered sacred and unbreakable. Breaking an oath was seen as a severe transgression, often invoking divine or supernatural punishment. Given the gravity with which oaths were treated, it's possible that the sheer weight of the oath itself carried the power to bind the Oathbreakers.
Númenorean Heritage: Isildur was a Númenorean, a race of Men blessed with long life and other gifts. The Númenoreans were known for their close ties with the Elves and their deeper understanding of the world. This heritage might have given Isildur the ability or knowledge to invoke such a curse.
Divine Intervention: Middle-earth is overseen by higher powers, specifically the Valar, who act as deities in the world. It's possible that they played a role, either by granting Isildur the power to curse or by enforcing the curse after it was made.
Symbolic Curse: It's also possible that Isildur's "curse" was more symbolic than literal. He might have simply pronounced them cursed, with the weight of their broken oath and the collective belief in the curse causing it to manifest. In this interpretation, it's the Oathbreakers' own guilt and shame that binds them to Middle-earth.
Magical Artifacts: Middle-earth is a land filled with magical items and artifacts. While there's no direct mention of Isildur using a specific artifact to curse the Oathbreakers, it's conceivable that he might have used some item of power to help enforce the curse.
In the end, Tolkien often leaves elements of his world intentionally vague, allowing for interpretation and exploration by readers and scholars. The nature of Isildur's curse on the Oathbreakers is one such element, and while we can speculate based on the information available, the true answer lies in the realm of the imagination."
And, yes, it does acknowledge that Tolkien, left this kind of element of what this curse, open to interpretation, invoking a lot of "what ifs" and "hows". But, these, to me, sound very plausible from it's viewpoints.
I reject this idea because Sauron then could have created an army of ghosts himself instead of just 7 ghost dudes. He was the creator of the ring and he definitely had the manual to know how to use it.
Because illuvatar was the one who made the curses happen. He wouldn’t have for Sauron because he was corrupted
I still prefer the idea that the men of the mountains were bound by failing their oath, maybe with some contribution from the stone of Erech. The sons of feanor were worried that their oath would revoke their gift of iluvatar should they fail, so there is some precedent that the terms of the oath hold immense power. It would just require that the original oath forbade death, or maybe the oath gave Isildur authority to pronounce judgement, and the men of the mountain just never anticipated that level of retribution.
Yeah makes sense. I don't read it that way, personally, but I certainly think it's totally plausible and a pretty common way to read the material. Well said!
Question for you: I really can't think of any time Eru held someone to an oath in the stories. Can you? The only oath breakers I can think of that paid a price were the Men of the Mountains and Gollum.... but neither mentions Eru and I feel both were really Ring related. Do you know of any others?
(just trying to figure out why your opinion is so popular in case I am missing something... it seems to be the most common opinion 😅) Thanks!
@@thegreyhavens167 I can't think of another time that an oath was broken, so I can't draw on anything but speculation.
But I think that the rebellion of Feanor, and the subsequent Doom of Mandos and Ban of the Valar is the first good example. The Noldor held the Valar as lords/masters while they lived in Valinor, and in that sense owed them allegiance. Then when the Noldor forswore their allegiance to the Valar they were cursed. There's no specific oath broken there (that we know of), but I think it carries a similar spiritual significance. They are eventually forgiven, and the ban is lifted, but only after the majority of the Doom has been fulfilled, and only forgiven because Earendil acted in higher purpose: fulfilling his own life's doom as determined by Eru.
Second (this is the weakest), I think that the curse of Morgoth on Hurin is actually more of an oath or vow. Again it was not broken, but the idea that Morgoth would keep his vow/curse/oath is really interesting: the powers, both good and evil, see to it that their vows are kept.
The third example is the Oath of Feanor. Maedhros and Maglor were driven by their fear of breaking the oath to attack Eonwe's camp after the war of wrath. At that point, they did not expect to succeed, and Maglor did not even desire to succeed, but the fear that breaking their oath would sever them from Eru was so great they decided to go ahead anyway. While I don't think their judgement was totally sound, the fact that two powerful elves feared that Eru's grace was not enough to save them from their doom speaks volumes on the power of oaths. They fully believed that to give up and do the right thing would leave them forever in the void , with only Melkor as company.
Lastly, similar to the rebellion of Feanor, the rebellion of Numenor had terrible consequences. This depends on the same lord/master allegiancepremise and has similar results. While we don't know that the Numenorians made a specific oath to not sail west, they had agreed not to on receiving Numenor as a homeland. And when they broke that agreement their fleet and home were both swallowed by the sea.
I know none of that is very good evidence for oaths specifically, but to me it's more about the spirit of oaths/agreements and vows. And I can't think of a broken oath that went unpunished.
I also don't remember the oath that the men of Dunharrow took (and couldn't find it in a quick search), I only know that Isildur's curse doesn't invoke Eru. So I'm not sure whether to attribute the fulfillment of punishment to the Ring or Eru.
OMG! 😂 Your LOTR videos are the best! The info is spot on but the delivery cracks me up! 😂 Keep them coming, please! I need the fun in my life! 😂😂😂
Aw yeah!! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／ That's a great comment. Thank you so much... I really appreciate it!!
(fwiw, I am having a blast making these 😅)
Just came across your channel and after watching this video im wanting to rewatch the trilogy again and i just watched it for the 20th anniversary of RotK
I feel you! Every time I sit down to make a video, I will jump to a scene to grab a 15 sec clip.... then before you know it I just spent 30 mins watching the films! 🤣🤷.
Glad you liked the video!
I read somewhere that Tolkien was a religuous man,and I think that's what the ghost army represents.....basically if you break your oath,you lie....you can never rest in peace......at least that is what I think he meant to represent with the ghost army. Also in the time period Tolkien lived in the power of the word you gave on something worth much more than nowadays sadly.... 😢
Wow! Mystery Science Theatre 3000? 🤣🤣🤣 Haven't seen that in forever! That was great.
Honestly, I wasn't sure if anyone would remember it or not! :)
You explained the nazgul to me in 25 second better then years of books could
The Mum-ra name drop had me chuckling, but the 'no one knows Mum-ra' had me rolling
The Ever... Living... BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA!!!!! 🤣🤣🤣 What a legend!
4:20 they used the secret family technique passed down by Jonathan Joestar 🤣
Regardless, your videos are wildly entertaining and I am so glad to see you still working hard on LOTR lore.
Discovered your channel bro. Amazing editing. Perfect combination. Keep it up brother!
Love your work!
Don't stop man. Awesome videos.
Awww yeah!!! That's for the great compliment. Really is meaningful. Glad you liked it!
(Fwiw, having a ton of fun making these 😅)
I really enjoyed this take. Thank you.
Awww yeah!!! Thanks for the kind words. Glad you liked it. 😅
Keep the videos coming man, these are very cool. So much scope for content!
Awww yeah!!!! (ノ^_^)ノ
Thanks. I appreciate that! Really glad you like them.
Amazing content as always! :)
Aw yeah!!! Thanks for the positive vibes. I appreciate it! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／
Your video skills are so EPIC 🔥😎
love how you censored Boromir ... lol !
🤣🤣 Excellent catch. I felt confident that no one would realize what that was🤣! Well played friend, well played. 🏆🏆🏆
Why is it so FUN to pick on movie Boromir? ヾ(⌐■_■)ノ
"Two and a half brave warriors" - man, Gimli still counts as one, even if he cannot stairs surf.
Honestly, I absolutely LOVE the portrayal of Gimli in the movies. He seems like he would be a BLAST to hang out with! And I do not doubt his will to stair surf... just the reach of his legs 🤣🤣🤣
@@thegreyhavens167
I don't doubt you admire Gimli. It's more about misleading wording: Gimli, as a dwarf, may be ⅔ to ¾ the size of a man or an elf, Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin, as hobbits, are probably half the size, but each of them is 100% hero (in Pippin's case a rather clumsy one).
Man these edits are my favorites
Awww yeah!!! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／ Glad you liked it!
Just discovered your channel, good stuff my man. How're you getting those custom thumbnails for shorts? is it through uploading on your phone?
Thanks. I appreciate that. 😀🙇
Yeah, the thumbnail situation with shorts is a bit janky. I make the vids on my desktop, transfer them to my phone, and then upload from the RUclips mobile app. From your phone, you can't upload a custom thumbnail but you *can* choose the exact frame in the vid. Does that help at all?
here's another question: why does Legolas call Isildur the last king of Gondor when there was an entire dynasty that succeeded him?
Oh no your right! 😬
Oh well... another movie mistake. I mean there are dozens of them, but luckily they never seem to be really important ones that seriously hurt the movies. (except maybe that "Arwen is dying now for some reason" part, imho). What do you think?
@@thegreyhavens167 totally agreed! about Arwen, yeah, saving the world she chose to live in from Sauron should have been enough of a motivation for Aragorn to keep fighting, no need to make it so personal!
He was the last king of the joint kingdom of Gondor and Arnor. After his death they became two separate nations so he’s technically right. Also the Dead probably wouldn’t view the other kings of Gondor as valid since they weren’t Isildur’s heirs so from their perspective he was the last. I do think it could have been worded better though, especially since Anarion is mentioned once and Gandalf implies that the failure of the line of kings was a gradual process like it was in the book
no@@ethanmillward675
Love ur vids bro
Thanks! I really appreciate that!
I am a new channel and not sure I know what I'm doing, but having a TON of FUN!! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／
Black Stone of Erech, also known as the Covenant Stone or Stone of Loyalty. A great black stone, spherical in shape and some twelve or more feet in diameter. It was half-buried at the top of the Hill of Erech at the mouth of the Blackroot Vale. The Stone is a mysterious and eerie place, shunned by the people of the valley, who claimed it had fallen from the sky, and it is said to be haunted by restless spirits. It was at the Stone of Erech that the King of the Mountains swore allegiance to Isildur’s cause in the time of the Last Alliance. When war came, though, he failed to fulfil his oath, and Isildur cursed the King and his people to wander the hills until they made good their promise.
So i found your channel two weeks ago while listening to the two towers audio book and it made me have stop and play Skyrim lol
I've watched all your videos twice and can easily say your my new favorite content creator!
The GoT music in the background is stellar. On point
Awwwww yeah! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／ Thanks for the comment! Really glad you liked the video. And gotta admit, the GoT theme song is a banger of a tune.... ヾ(⌐■_■)ノ♪
“Nazgûlled” cracked me up!
Seems likely to me! Question: Any signs Sauron or even Morgoth actually had any affection for the orcs or liked them? Were they perhaps disgusted, but just using them as pawns? Evidence either way? Morgoth wanted the power to create life, but could only corrupt; was he happy with the result of his work? Sauron loved order, but orcs are wild, dirty, and hard to control. Maybe the plan was to win, and then eventually kill the pawns?
@DieLuftwaffel - great question! Don't think I have ever really spent time thinking on this. I think I might make my next long video on this + where the Orcs came from ( I have a theory that's kinda interesting I think 😏) Thanks! 🙇
I can't recall too many direct examples. TBH, we rarely actually see Sauron at all in the stories (though we see Morgoth a bit more). But here is my personal guess:
* Morgoth hated EVERYTHING. To me, he just wants to watch the world burn. He is a child that is pouting against his father/siblings. Since he can't have it his way, he is going to ruin it for everyone else. So I would think he is excited and proud of how trash the orcs are. He doesn't want to kill them - oh no - he want's everything beautiful to be corrupted like Orcs are. He want's messed up plants, and weather, and animals, and humans, and just everything nasty and terrible. He can't strike out at his family directly, so he hurts them indirectly. Summary: Morgoth want's a world full of orcs.
* Sauron is totally different. He wants perfection. In my mind he is the god of Order and Structure. He wants to control all life and order it so everything works perfectly together with no friction or waste. In his mind, a perfect world is objectively better. So orcs, are kinda trash - and I think he hates them. Note in the first age, we never see him with Orcs. He is usually with Balrogs and Werewolves. And in the second and third age most of his armies are actually men and not orcs. And his leaders tend to be black Numenorians or Nazgul. So he doesn't want the world to be ruined... he wants it to be perfect. Summary: I think Sauron hates being around orcs and wishes they were all dead.
So there is my guess. What do you think? What's your guess?
I love your videos , can you make one about Galadriel please
Thanks, I really appreciate you taking the time to write that. I will add a video on Galadriel to the list! Is there anything specifically you are interested in?
I love your videos , can you do feonor and the silmarils next please
thank you sir its an excellent explanation.
Aw yeah! Thanks for the positive vibes. Glad you liked it! ヾ(⌐■_■)ノ
Hi. Happy Holidays. It's wonderful you have over 20,000 subscribers now. That's a nice gift in itself. I've been with you since you had 10. lol I stopped getting recommends for your shorts, so I'm assuming you've taken a break or are in the process of creating new ones. If so, I'll look forward to viewing them in the new year.
JeffRebornNow - how are you. Yeah, happy holidays to you as well! Seems like a long time ago I started making these videos... and you were one of the first people that started leaving comments! Thanks for sticking around. Hope your doing well.😁🙇
I started a new job IRL that took up most of my time recently, so I had about a 2 month break in between videos, but just started posting new shorts last week and this weekend and hope to start on some more long form videos during the break.
Dude you deserve way more subs!!! Videos are hilarious. Came across your shorts and was instantly hooked. Subscriber earned 😊
Cartoon Sauron being Aku from Samurai Jake with never not be funny.
It's the best theory we have, but WOW does that Isildur know how to hold a grudge!
Right? I mean 11 YEARS!!! I can hardly remember people's names from 11 years ago! ¯\_(〇_ｏ)_/¯
I must admit, I always found the punishment of the Oathbreakers to be really harsh. They are cursed to wander the mountains as ghosts for 3000 years, just for refusing to honor a pledge their grandfathers took 100 years before. It just always struck me that the punishment did not fit the crime. Am I crazy? What do you think?
@@thegreyhavens167 Very harsh, quite Biblical in fact! Maybe swearing by that black stone has more significance than we realised?
Agreed... there is something weird about stone. One - it's huge - why carry it out of Numenor when you are hurriedly escaping a disaster? Weird? It like "Hey my house is burning down... quick help me carry this sofa!" 😅
And two, why just bury it on a remote random hill in the middle of nowhere???? If it's so important and all, why not put it somewhere special like in a city? It's like "I really love my sofa that we saved... I know let's place it in a random field that is far away that we will never go to again!" Crazy, right?
I feel there is a real mystery there we just dont know about. 🤔🤔🤔
1:23 "And two and a HALF lone warriors" poor gimli lol
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣. Maybe we can find him a box?
@@thegreyhavens167 my friend was watching the movies for the first time (extended edition
of course) so i told her to pay attention to how wholesome Gimli and Legolas's sass towards each other is
So cool !
Thanks! I really appreciate that. Glad you liked it! :)
That's cool The one ring reinforces his curse in a way Love the video ❤
Thanks - I appreciate that! 🙂
"Where they worshipped lord Sauron and bullied him in cording to Rings of Power" lol
Are we getting a new video anytime soon? I love them
Really wished these guys had more screentime
I actually agree... though I know many book readers don't love the Ghost Army. I do get it. But they just look and sound so cool!!!!
I figured due to the importance of the fight, and that Sauron was going against Eru iluvatar. Eru iluvatar set the curse. I think because the war could have saved middle earth, and stopped Sauron forever that was reason enough to curse them. Also Isildurs turn to darkness, Iluvatar could contribute some of the blame to the men in the mountains. 🤷 idk lots of reasons.
Very cool channel
Awww yeah!!! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／ Glad you like the channel.
I think Eru Iluvatar enforces the oath because, when Isildur is talking to one of his sons in moment when they are abushed in gladon fields, Isildur say to his son that he still can't find will to master the ring.
These videos are awesome! just found your channel and have been watching all your vids! My personal question id love to see covered is what would happen if the Fellowship listened to Boromir and just stopped by Minas Tirith? Its always hurt my feelings that Boromir just wanted to stop by the house real quick, i mean hes on this crazy adventure that will probably end in his death or the end of middle earth, and like can i please stop by my place real quick its on the way.... hell nah bro fuck you..... RIP BOROMIR D:
xD
Awww yeah!!!! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／ Thanks. Glad you liked it. Definitely looking forward to more videos :)
And I think your totally right about Boromir. Especially movie Boromir. He asks an honest and good question about using the Ring and they 1) never tell him why they can't use it and 2) they seem to never take him seriously again.... what? Justice for Boromir dude! 🤬 (don't tell him I said that!)
In the book, my impression is that Aragorn's plan was always to head straight down to Minas Tirith and save it. He had the sword fixed and that was were he felt his destiny was. I suspect G was going to take the hobbits to Mordor and Aragorn take the rest to Gondor... but then old Grey Beard fell on the platform level in Moria and it all went crazy 😵💫🔥
@@thegreyhavens167 xD dang ol Grey Beard! I appreciate the response so much!
5:00
Thundercats, Aragorn. Thundercats.
I don't want to say "wrong" because I am no expert, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the Oathbreakers and Isildur both swore their oath in the name of Eru Illuvatar, and that, such an oath made, by one Illuvatar had shown favor to; before coming to Middle Earth, Isildur had been protected in getting a new White Tree, and the palantiri, and then naming it to the boat, and escaping Numenor's fall, where so many drowned, on God's own name, which was key, made Illuvatar sanctify it, and thus enforce it. Oathes and curses were some I'd the greatest powers Men received, and much like Eru enforced Gollum's oath, which plunged him, and the Ring, onto the fire, He enforced this oath on tbe Men of the Dimholt. I think it's important how few people actually consider Eru Illuvatar, in the verse. He is important, bur no one worships Him in a temple, or sees the Vala as angels, like we do. So when someone who is actually aware of Him invokes Him by name, and gets away with it, He'll back that up. My take, anyway. Sorry to ramble.
Glorious! 9min out and already watching!
Nice! I see your screen name as titan in it. Are you an AOT fan? Or does it reference something else? 🤔
(if so, I need you to explain the whole Attack Titan time travel thing...)
It is reference to my old clan/guild back in 2004 in one of the mmo's.
I have no idea about anything else :) my apologies, good sir.
Whoah... 2004? I'm trying to think what I was playing way back then. Would that be Everquest? or was WOW out around then maybe?
@@thegreyhavens167 Lineage2 Hindemith Server, we were small clan from small country but have risen to holding a Castle (several in turn), and several contested guild halls in turn some for very long times continualy. Also being part of greater alliance and having a war going on pretty much against almost the rest of the server :)
Fun gaming, but consumes tons of time.
Two questions:
How powerful was the Witch King? At Weathertop we see Aragorn scare him and 4 others off with a torch and a sword. We know that Gandalf the Grey also successfully battled them off a little bit earlier. But then the Witch King shatters Gandalf the White’s staff with his mind in the battle of Gondor. How does that work?
Which leads me to me next question.
How does the whole staff shattering thing work? Gandalf the White shatters Saruman the Whites staff, but then the Witch King shatters Gandalf the White’s staff.
OMG that Attack on Titan joke! I'm ded!
🤣🤣 Thanks! And, full disclosure, I'm still not sure I 100% understand the Attack Titan time machine thing? ＼（〇_ｏ）／
My understanding is that no race of man elf or dwarf could use the power of the one as it had the effects of both the physical and spectral world, thus only those who exist on both spectrums can wield the power of the one ring. A creature like, say, a Balrog could potentially use it, or a wizard as the wizards are also Maiar, like the balrog is but either corrupted or created by Morgoth.
In this Isildur could not wield it anymore than Bilbo could.
With the ring being of both worlds, by wearing it, you would enter the spectral realm, thus turn invisible to all eyes, yet the Nasghul, who cannot see clearly into the physical realm could now see frodo clear as day when he wore it.
I love it!! Great comment.... and I think most people agree with you 100%. 👍. Mortals just can't fully utilize it. Also, Gandalf and Elrond seem to agree with you too.
However, there is one person that does not agree with you - SAURON ಠಿ_ಠ !!!! Yep, we are told in two different occasions that Sauron is worried Aragorn is mastering the ring to win all these battles. He attacks quickly, because he is worried Aragorn will learn to use it so quickly and completely that he could defeat Sauron. 🤔🤔🤔
Interesting.... So I guess the question is .... Who do you trust 🤣
While true that historically, there has been no Maiar who's laid a hand on the ring and thus could have no true say in the potential use of it. Sauron may have a final say in regards to the use of it, yet that's something to be considered as iffy given that it's coming from someone whose moniker is "The Deceiver"
Illuvitar enforces oaths. In the book, he's the one who tripped Gollum when Gollym broke his oath to serve Frodo.
They were cursed after breaking a sacred oath (an oath on the name of aru). Tolkin made it pretty clear that breaking normal oaths is different from breaking other oaths made on the name of Aru himself. The ring had nothing to do with oathbreakers curse. Its just that provoking the name of Aru is not a joke and had consequences.
Well said. But polite challenge to you: 🙂
1: how do you know they took the oath in the name of Eru? Does the text say that? (Hint: nope :)
2: the curse didn't kick in till Sauron was destroyed.. why? Why would Eru wait 11 years?
3: Why would Eru curse men for an oath their grandfathers took 100 years before? None of the men that fled were alive when the oath was taken. None of them actually took the oath. Seems awfully unfair and cruel to me.
What do you think? I know your answer is the normal one everyone gives... but if you think about it... really no reason in the text to believe that, right? Am I crazy? 🤪
@thegreyhavens167 I don't recall any textual evidence tbh. I only know that oaths and prophecies have a great significance in tolkin's world.
Idk, man. Tolkin left us with quite a room for skeptical thoughts 😅🤣
Did you just use attack on titan omg new favourite channel im binging all ur videos today XD
@Howlsequanimity7606 Thanks! I appreciate that... Hope you like the other vids! 🙂
(I think of myself as a fairly smart individual... but I am still not sure I understand all the Attack Titan powers.... 🤣🤣🤣)
The man or the mountain are the people that abandoned the isildur and his army at the battle of Barad-dûr where they attempted to lay
The Siege to Barad-dûr in the very beginning of the fellowship movie instead of going to battle they fled to the mountains instead of fight in the last alliance
Yep - Definitely. But here is the question: how? Like how can Isildur, a man, curse people into Ghosts? Only God himself has that power... so what's the answer? What do you think?
@@thegreyhavens167 an oath it's carried on into death that's what an oath means and since they went back on their oath they lingered on into death because that's what the isildur said. Fight for me and it was a isildur ancestor Aragon that pledged them their death after they fought
so you feel turning into a ghost was just the natural way Oath's work in middle earth. I think a lot of people feel that way, but I dunno. Polite challenge to you:
* they didnt actually take the oath 🙀
* the oath was taken in 3320
* the men fled in 3430 ---- 110 years later
* so the men that fled were the grandchildren of the men that actually took the oath.
Does that change your perspective at all? 🙂🤔
Hey man. What music do you use for Sauron and Mordor in your shorts? I can't seem to find anything like it.
I'm not 100% sure what part you are referring to, but here goes:
* Theme from Overwatch 1 (I suspect this is the song you are talking about)
I also use these a lot:
* Mortal Kombat
* The Mandalorian
* Game of Thrones
* Linkin Park - What I've Done
* Gangsta's Paradise
Shoot me over a timestamp if these dont answer your question. Thanks
I'm pretty sure Numenor had people dabbling in dark magics working for Sauron (Annatar). This is in the Silmarillion or the Unfinished Tales
Love your videos. Btw day 7 of asking for more of my boy Tommy B
Thanks! Glad you like them ヾ(⌐■_■)ノ
Still working on ideas of Tommy B (and probably Old Man Willow too). It's definitely going to come at some point! :)
Question? What is Angmar and why didn't the eleves or humans deal with it? Secondly if that's too simple, what is the history of laketown/Dale? Love all your work, greatly appreciate how it is both entertaining and informative :)
Glad you like the videos. Trying to have some fun with it!
Yeah Angmar is a mystery. How was it's population so big to produce such a large army? Where did these people come from? Why did no one in Arnor notice it growing huge right next door? How did Witchy take it over? Why did it fall apart instantly after Witchy left and instantly abandoned?
Basically.... we just don't know? Add the mystery I guess? 🤷. What do you think?
@thegreyhavens167 Firstly, thank you for asking my thoughts on it - it's great to see a creator that not only tries to have fun with videos, but also interacting with their audience.
In my head cannon I guess you could call it, under angmar and near mount gungbadad there is a huge system of catacombs, possibly of dwarf origins, adapted and carved out to make an underground city of sorts. The men of arnor simply didn't have any idea about what was going on - made even more so by the witch king's deception. The witch king - in my head - was once a king of arnor, and whilst being influenced by sauron through a ring, brought arnor's attention elsewhere, allowing for a build up or an army. When the army left, the catacombs crumbled due to the witch king's power no longer needing to uphold key places in the catacombs, causing the whole place to crumble.
Obviously I'm no lore expert, so if there's anything I've mistaken, feel free to point it out.
Have a nice day!
2:50 after i angel my sceen by 24 degree i fells more like home 😊
🤣🤣 I dont know why, but for some reason this comment really got me laughing 🤣🤣
We should watch more Rings of Power at 24 degrees and see what secrets we are missing :)
Minas Arnor the Citadel of the sun
Minas ithil the tower of the moon
Osgiliath the capital of Gondor were the two brother kings Rulled
So, who wins in a fight between the Oath Breakers and Nazgul?
Ok - here is my personal opinion - and a lot of people will disagree but:
* they both SUCK horribly at fighting
* it's unclear either can fight. so no one wins, they just keep trying to hurt each other and failing. Like 2 kittens fighting while wearing soft pillow gloves 🙄
So Legolas tells us that he is unsure if the Ghost Army can actually hurt anyone.
I feel the same about the Nazgul. They never hurt of kill anyone, at all, ever. (they stab Frodo when he is in Ghost form, and otherwise it's always their steed (horse, etc) that do the killing).
My guess is they are both just ghosts... super scary... but ultimately harmless. Am I crazy?
Not gonna lie, watching your videos are way more informative, to me at least, of the story. Also got me to start reading the two towers again because I was just board from it. Just my take
I like how the Last Alliance succeeded without the men of the mountain, so they essentially became way overpowered and held in reserve until they were critical for mission success.
Wow. Nice.
Thanks! Glad you liked it. ヾ(⌐■_■)ノ
I would like to know more about the "pirates" that help the orcs
Question: "Why does it burn when I pee?" 😳
Your turning into a Balrog? Either that or you need elvish medicine!
I have a question. I get why Frodo was invited to get into the boat at the end, he was screw badly by the blade and the ring, but why Sam and why not Merry and Pippin?
Great question. I might make a video on something like this.... super cool!
Here is my read of it. Frodo and Bilbo were invited to visit the island beside the undying lands of Valinor called Tol Eressa. It's not the land of the gods, but right next door, and still pretty cool! Sam, however, was not actually "invited", at least as far as we know. He just decided to go.
We know he set off, but did he actually make it? 🤔 No one knows. No regular person that tried to get there has ever succeeded.... but seeing how Samwise Gamgee is basically an unstoppable Terminator machine wrapped in cute hobbit skin sent back from the future to kill Sauron and can never be stopped by anything.... yeah... I bet he made it. (EPIC!!!)
Well in my eyes it would be possible that iluvatar actually did this curse. Even though it is unusual that the gods or even iluvatar himself is interacting with the world they allready did it once. So since iluvatar created the world by a song where melkor was disturbing the melodie iluvatar allready knew what's going to happen. So it would be possible that iluvatar allready knew that at one point the man of the mountains would be needed. So he granted "the wish" of isildur. Like in the songs where allways at the end of a part he had the last word and stopped melkor he again had the last word.
Then again the gods only were interacting with the world to counteract melkors actions... and it is questionable if iluvatar was able to "read" what exactly melkors disturbance was going to cause.
Eru Iluvatar is actually pretty hands-on in punishing those that break oaths.
But not all oaths are punished equally.
Even the Sons of Feanor with their oath dared not break it, for even how bad their machinations cursed themselves through their oaths, if they broke it themselves? Eru would have dealt a harsher punishment.
Gollum broke his oath, and got punished by Eru
Even the Numenorians took an oath, by their forefathers, to not sail west, and Ar-Pharazon is hinted to have taken an equal punishment as the Oathbreakers. To forever roam in the "Caverns of the Forgotten" undead, never moving on from Arda, until the Last Battle. Punishment for wanting immortality, he got it.
Yeah, breaking an oath in middle-earth is really _really_ bad. Eru steps in all of them.
Qvestion:
Do you think gandalf had backup plan on what to do against Smaug if he was styll there?
Do you think gandalf or the council could take on Smaug?
Eru Ilúvatar did it prety much the logical explanation .
Is this a RUclips video using actual music, that actually underlines the content of the video.
I'm getting flashbacks of a RUclips I thought was lost to legends
I'd say the half buried black orb had something to do with that
Letting them go and not sending em intoo Mordor was the biggest plothole of LotR period. Like for real - the war was far from over - it simply made no sence to send em away...
2:57: music from GoT on LoTR? 😂
I think you are confused. That's Boromir's theme song. :)
@@thegreyhavens167 “Ups!” 😅
So if death is the gift exclusive to men, then what happens to elves who get lethaly injuried?
Great question! Their spirits go to Valinor, the land of the gods to the West. (Where Elrond and the other elves sail to at the end of the movies/books) There they hang out with other elves, and get a copy of their old body back. So they really do live forever! What do you think?
If Isildur used the One Ring to create the Dead Men of Dunharrow, wouldn't that have made them under Sauron's will?
Here’s a question: why does it seem like most of the Maiar we know of are former servants of Aulë? Both Curumo and Mairon turned bad, when they became Saruman and Sauron respectively, but why would servants of Aulë end up evil exactly?
Wow, that's a great question. Never really thought about it in that way before. 🤔
Here is my best guess.... but not sure how confident I feel in this....
* We are told that Saruman was so overly concerned with HOW to beat Sauron, that he forgot WHY he was trying to beat him, and it led him to do terrible things (sorta for a good cause?)
* Similar with Sauron. As the god of Order and Structure he wants to improve the world by controlling all life so it works together perfectly. (also sorta a good cause, maybe?) I mean he does not *Care* about life, he is just a perfectionist that wants it to work like a clock.
So my guess is, that Tolkien has a basic thought that Industry and Science (represented by the Engineer Aule) often runs amok and damages the earth and society - while nature and honest farmers (like hobbits) lead to more peaceful and better lives.
What do you think? How do you read it?
@@thegreyhavens167 I think that’s a good reading. Tolkien did say that the act of creation is perhaps the most corrupting thing one can do because it gives an often false sense of mastery or ownership of the thing. Aulë might’ve been one of the only beings that truly made something great for a more noble goal. Melkor just wanted to corrupt and destroy everything because if he couldn’t control or make stuff, nobody could. Sauron wanted to control everything to make it perfect, Fëanor made the Silmarils and felt that only he and his sons should have them, and were willing to fight and kill anyone who had them instead of using their light to recreate the two trees. Then there were the dwarves who made the necklace with a Silmaril in it who demanded it as payment for making it from Thingol. I could go on!
@jacobshore5115, wow, great thoughts. I have never really looked at it quite that way. I always just sorta thought that Tolkien had an emotional attachment to the quiet English countryside, and detested the mechanics and engineering associated with war... leading to the simple idea that Nature tends to be good and Industry tends to be bad. I mean the very trees and forests rise up against the industry of Isengard, right?
But if I read your comments correctly, maybe it's deeper than that. Maybe it's not the act of engineering or creation that's bad in itself, but rather the sense of ownership that follows. It's a very self-centered and non-humble thought that something is yours and yours alone, right? Maybe that's how Aule stays uncorrupted: his creations are for everyone and he claims no ownership. Wow, you have given me a lot to think over. Thanks!
(can I say, I really enjoy hearing others perspectives on Tolkien. no other fictional work quite drives this much insight and depth to me. sometimes people in the comments here get a little bit closed minded and frustrating, but 90% are really great, and this kind of conversation to me is SUPER interesting. I love it, thank you! :)
The Silmarillion says Aulë was too earthly minded by being the smithy builder and/or not stepping up to morally check followers because he was prone to overstep himself, i.e. creating the dwarves. Maybe Aulë seemed like a safe place for half dubious Maiar to shelter under.
@@o_LL_o he didn’t exactly make the dwarves with Malicious intent though. But maybe he could’ve been too busy with his own projects to really see what his Maiar servants were really thinking or feeling.
I never understood the word 'spiritual' until I watched this video.
Hi there! Tolkien question incoming (though it's probably nothing for a video, i'd just love it if somebody could give me an answer in the comments)
I wad just studying the map of middle earth and found some inaccuracies/differences depending on which ones you look at. I'm talking about the (lack of?) river that connects the North of Mordor with the South of the Sea of Rhûn.
I looked at multiple depictions pf the map, and about half of them have a river there while the others (like my version in my LotR books) don't. Does anyone have an answer to that? I know that the Sea of Rhûn is talked about relatively rarely, but maybe there's an answer out there in the Silmarillion that I have missed
If you try to make sense of the geology of Middle Earth you'll develop a tic.
Why. No more videos?
Glad you like them.... I appreciate that. I will see what I can do to get some more videos out! Thanks ＼（〇◡ｏ）／
Question: does Faramir foretell or cause Gollums death when he says, “may death find you quickly if they come to harm”?
It created another question how aragon released them without any ring
Blud censored Bromir😂
Wow, nice catch! I can't believe you noticed that. Well played good sir ... Well played. 🤣🤣
I know this question is random but will you buy the confirmed 4000-piece Barad-dûr set?
Oh I didnt know about this. I love Legos, but haven't bought any for myself in a long time. I gotta check this thing out. How about you?
@@thegreyhavens167 I might not even be able to afford it dry, If I can I'll try to get it, Lego didn't reveal much but it's 4000+ pieces and has "minifigures including Sauron". I think with a nice Mordor army coming with it this would be a great buy, I hope Lego is generous with the minifigures, but it will be really expensive regardless. It's been 4 years since I last bought Lego so I hope this will be worth my life savings
New video, when?
Maybe it was Eru Illuvitar. He cursed them because he knew they would be needed to fight Sauron again later. He gave them a second chance.
I’m a bit late but why is the balrog so powerful like where do the balrogs come from
(if you would rather a video explanation, see my vid: The Balrog of Moria Explained : )
In the beginning, the God of the universe created spirits. A few hundred or so decided to come down to earth and help build it, to build a home for Elves and Men. These eternal spirits have been alive since before time, and will be alive till the end. They are kinda like the Greek gods. They are powerful, but certainly don't know everything and arent all powerful. And lots of times they make mistakes too - just like Zeus and Poseidon and Athena.
Anyways, the Balrog is one of these ancient spirits/gods. He is a god of fire and consumption. Sauron is too. He is the god of Order and Structure. Also Gandalf and Saruman are as well, though clothed in human bodies. Saruman is the god of physics and deep learning. Not 100% sure what Gandalf is the god of. When the elves sail to "The West" at the end of the movies, they are sailing to the land of the gods, called Valinor. This is all in a big history book called the Silmarillion.
Thanks love your videos
I though it's the 9 rings who make the 9 mens into Nazgul ? Did the King make a similar cursed ring to each soldiers ? Or I'm wrong somewhere ?
Well said! I mean the Oathbreakers honestly don't make perfect sense in this universe, so any theory will have it's challenges 🤣
The 9 rings gives the Nazgul power and such, but it's Sauron's ring that really turns them into ghosts. Note by the LOTR they don't even wear their rings anymore, Sauron keeps them personally.
But all that being said, yeah it's true that I am reaching a bit... there is no way to know "how" Isildur could use the ring to do this. And it begs the question, if this is possible, why didn't Sauron use it this way a bunch? But there is not perfect theory on this one. What are your thoughts?
@@thegreyhavens167 If only Tolkien still alive. LOTR is not as simple world with OP artefacts like D&D
Question: why did Frodo's vest fail against the spider?
Fair question. 🤔 I have two answers for you:
-- In the Book: Shelob stings him in the back of the neck. No mithril armor there, so no problem :)
-- In the Movie: yeah your right, it's a movie mistake. Just a miss imho. She stabs him right in the chest, and there is NO WAY she would get through. If that Cave Troll with a Spear can't get through the mithril while Frodo was pinned against a wall..... no way a stinger gets through when Frodo is standing in the open!
(Also, when the orcs show the mithril shirt later.... no hole in it!)
There you go. Is that how you see it?
@@thegreyhavens167 I've genuinely always wondered, that's awesome 👌
so then how could aaragorn without the ring release the men from their oath?
What about Feanörs oath of the Silmarills?
Fair question. I will give you my personal read of things, but feel free to disagree. Everyone reads it differently, right? 👉 Feanor and his sons took an oath and Mandos prophesied that it would cause all the elves to infight and such. Indeed all that infighting did happen.... A LOT!!! 👉 However, it seems to me the oath wasn't the driver. It reads like this over and over: something good happens > Feanor's sons do something terrible > everyone starts fighting! Like where is the "curse" in there. People would fight against them either way. Mandos seems to have really given a prophecy, not a curse. 👉 Even if you consider it a curse, it didn't break the very laws of the universe..... just got people annoyed with each other. The ghost army broke the foundational laws that can never be broken. Well that's my read. What do you think? What are your thoughts?
@@thegreyhavens167 fair enough. My personal take on Isildur has always been that basically Gondor was powerful. But I think he could’ve done it later I guess, seems a bit petty though but then again he had the ring so all bets are off. Could’ve been a minor error by Tolkien as well, or an unfinished idea.
Haven’t thought that much about Feanör but I just thought it was a clear example of another oath with consequences so I wanted to hear what you thought, or why you overlooked it. I think you might be right but I always got a sense of it being a punishment as well, kind of like the Fall of Numenór, the sacrifices kept getting worse and it felt like divine intervention to me.
GirlNextGondor has made some really good videos on the nature of oaths, curses, magic, and necromancy in Middle-earth.
I'd like to add, the One Ring was not what turned men into Wraiths, it was the Nine Rings that they wore. The One Ring only bound them to Sauron's control. Eru Illuvatar is the witness to all oaths. If this curse was accepted as punishment for an oath, it is because He deemed it appropriate and had a purpose for it. The purpose ended up being for them to defeat the Corsairs.
Breaking an Oath is already a very serious thing, but given that the Oath was made to the King of Gondor and the curse was also made by him, but the oath was also sworn upon a presumably holy rock from Numenor. Add to this, the fact that Eru Illuvatar had a greater plan, we have plenty of means to explain this.