Don't Buy Cars that Use this New Type of Refrigerant in the AC System
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- Опубликовано: 14 июн 2018
- Car AC system refrigerant. Don't Buy Cars that Use this New Type of Refrigerant in the AC System, DIY with Scotty Kilmer. Air Conditioning r1234yf refrigerant vs r134a, which is better? Most older cars have r134a refrigerant, but now new cars are changing to r1234YF refrigerant. This new type of refrigerant is not only more expensive, but can also be very dangerous to car owners. New changes to car air conditioning systems. Car air conditioning repair. AC refrigerant explained. DIY car repair with Scotty Kilmer, an auto mechanic for the last 50 years.
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Scotty Kilmer - Thanks Scotty for this information!!! I guess I better stock up on -R-134. Before they stop selling it - Huh
hi scotty what do you think of the BMW 330i 06 N52 model? bimmers are known to have many issues but I've read and heard this particular model and year is actually pretty solid
Scotty Kilmer Scotty could you kindly send us a link to view the list of cars that use the new refrigerant.
Thanks
Three grand for refrigerant God help us here in FL.
I understand just don't buy new cars.
I use RD2W70 in my vehicles, (Roll down 2 windows and drive 70mph).
LMAO I'M WITH YA BROTHER, ALSO MY DOBES CAN STICK THEIR HEADS OUT THE WINDOWS.
Brian Ross ur Comment the best
"I use RD2W70 in my vehicles, (Roll down 2 windows and drive 70mph)."
But what do you do in a school zone?
Yeah, I know RD4w20 right? LOL!!!
worked well for me for years
I use the same stuff in my truck👍🏼
Don't buy any car except a silver 1994 Toyota Celica
Love u scotty
Its a nice old car
Okay, but I can get an older used Toyota Sienna right? I have a lot of friends!
Or TOYOTA COROLLA
CLE -CHI If I was small enough, I'd get a Corolla! But I'm basically a telephone pole, so I'm too tall for a car that small!
May as well use propane for the refrigerant.
Cody'sBLab R1234yf is propane
commercial systems have been using propane or ammonia for 100 years.
Cody...propane has been available for years. DURACOOL is a brand that I have in my car: larger molecules (less phantom leaks), lower head pressures required (saving wear/tear on compressor), and COLD as HELL. It also costs the same as R134a
Actually propane (R-290) is an EXCELLENT refrigerant. To be honest, I think the fire risk from a 20 oz. charge of propane isn't as bad as people think. If it was, there's no way insurers would allow propane-powered forklifts (with their 40 POUND tanks) to be operated within the warehouses they insure!
No, R 1234yf is tetrafluoropropylene, not propane. Propane is a simple alkane, r1234yf is a fluoro alkene...that double bond is why it breaks down so readily and quickly in the upper troposphere/lower stratosphere (oxidation by OH radical). Propane is MUCH less reactive than its propylene cousin. Both, however, are quite flammable, it's just that the ignition energy and autoignition temperature for R-1234yf is substantially higher (but still not at all what I'd call safe).
In the 1990s a company in Utah developed a product called X-12 which you could add to the old R12 unit OR, flush it all out and use the X-12 by itself. The X-12 was SO non-toxic and Ozone Friendly that it didn't ever show up on the EPA charts. It was also 10-20% MORE efficiant and had a lower High and Suction Pressure which means you could run a cooler compressor which would last longer, AND, It was cheaper to make. What happened...DuPont, the maker of most all Refrigerants (under the TRADE NAME of "Freon") kept that company in court for so long they went bankrupt and went out of business. Yeah, big boys Won and WE the people,,,AGAIN.. lost.
I must express my doubts, as a lot of companies, especially startups, will pitch a project that is in the works as being universally good. (Solar roadways, vacuum sealed transits, etc.) That said, I can definitely believe a larger company will devour a smaller one that has a better product if the opportunity appears. I would expect them to have taken strides to get their hands on the X-12 though. Usually those larger ones will buy out the small ones, easily for just one product they want to capture.
@PhazonMetroid22
There are a few amazing products lost to history, IE starlight, basically a near magic insulation a home-grown inventor made and took to the grave with him. I would love to see some in depth journalism in this supposed X-12. Whether the company intentionally took it to the grave with them to keep DuPont from getting it, if it was real. Or if DuPont got the formula and found other issues that made it non-viable.
A lot more Citation from OP would be nice.
Blah blah blah no links, no real information other than what the OP made up. "Don't believe everything you read on the internet kids" - Abraham Lincoln 1862
That's not my memory of what happened. I think that X-12 stuff was a highly FLAMMABLE hydrocarbon based aftermarket product. I had an '84 Chevy Citation II that took R12, wanted to know if it was a good idea to use hydrocarbon replacements. Old car systems were never designed with a flammable gas in mind, so in the worst case, such replacements could be catastrophic and lethal. I didn't find an example of a passenger car death, but I did find some guy who had the front of his Porsche burst into flames at a swap meet. Fortunately he wasn't in the car when it happened. Also found a transit bus down in Paraguay I think, that did a hydrocarbon replacement they shouldn't have. 18 people died in the fire. Scotty is right to be concerned about using FLAMMABLE stuff in a vehicle. At least if the system is designed for something flammable, you have a lot better odds than a system that WASN'T, which was the problem with X-12 and similar aftermarket hydrocarbon products.
@@phazonmetroidsrule22 But with a name like X-12, just makes for easy claim of infringement or material harm or something like that to the producers of R-12
The reason I love this channel is that he’s not afraid of offending people and it’s pretty educational at the same time, keep up the good work Scotty!
I don't see no offense, just plain truth!
Isaac D. Because people get offended about absolutely anything these days.
He's wrong though regarding the refrigerants
R-1234a has a whooping GWP of 1400. Carbon dioxide has a GWP of 1 for instance. That's a concern even in cars where it requires a small amount of gas. The issue he appears to have is the costs for the most part, and that's due to patents, for the most part . R-1234yf is "mildly flammable" and most things are "mildly flammable". Even steel wool is flammable
German manufacturers within the EU, didn't say the same thing as the same German manufacturers in the US
Every single time you regas your AC, your gas has already leaked. Granted that's every 5-10 years or so in the UK but in the US it's probably a lot earlier in sunnier areas . That's a concern especially as developing countries... develop, especially in India and China
@@Tenkaichibudokai22 no offence either
My wife blows really cold & only cost me EVERY DIME I HAVE !!
Not sure her refrigerant type....
john doe
Don't ask for a bj right after she just ate an ice cream cone..
Anon Ymous im 50.
Been there done that
john doe I'm just guessing as to why she blows cold
Alice Cooper comes to mind... (Cold Ethyl for the younger audience)
XX
Old cars are the future.
You can buy an old car with an AC system but when you go to have it recharged you're not gonna find our 12 anymore you're still gonna have to use the 134 a or some day new
For poor people.
@@martinallenuk Im pretty comfortable that most people I know and I drive an older car.
R 12 is 1200 for 30 pounds if you can get it
@@martinallenuk I have the cash to buy a new car right now, but nothing's been made in the last 30+ years I'd even consider paying a new car price for. Better to find the car you like most regardless of year of manufacture, and then invest in it to bring it up to a better state of repair as needed. I mean really, besides something like a Ferrari or something else exotic, everything made today is ugly and of lesser quality in design compared to cars made decades ago.
R-12 was a "dream chemical", incredibly efficient, energy efficient, non-toxic, non-corrosive, stable. It was so good and so easy on the equipment, that there are fridges and ac units from the 1970s still running perfect, ice cold, running on r-12...
i have two cars that still have r12
My mom has a freezer from the mid 90s that works better than modern ones tbh. It just has to be defrosted like once a year.
I thought there was something toxic about r12 leaks? Am I getting mixed up? I have a car that runs on r12 but the A/C system doesn’t work. Plan to overhaul it this Summer but not sure if I should convert to 134a or something similar instead if im buying parts anyways
@@chrisladouceur4093 nah, it *is* an issue. No idea where edwalker got "non-toxic" from.
And, I know this isn't a concern 99% of the time - but under high heat, e.g. in a small fire, Freon (R12) gives you this really fun gas called Phosgene
It's all about money! Years ago I did a little bit of research when they were changing from R12 to R134a. I asked many people including environmentalists "Who holds the patent on the current R12 that's about to run out? DuPont." "Who has been shouting the loudest and carrying the flag highest to ban R12? DuPont" "Who holds the patent on the new R134a? DuPont." It would be interesting to see who holds the patent on the new r1234yf.
Update! I just Googled it! Chemours holds the patent for the new r1234yf refrigerant! What was Chemours former name? DUPONT!!!!!
Shepperd November Well, well...cats out of the bag. I hope other people find out.
I'm pretty sure the God given Marijuana plant was made illegal by DuPont.
Shepperd November you nailed the situation perfectly!
Twiggy the lizard They don't care!
Next stop....depleted plutonium fumes R666....saves the ozon but will turn you into the swamp thing!
1234yf is actually even more of a pollutant than CO2. So not sure what the reasoning is...
David Laurie exactly....easy to find leaks. No more dangerous uv paint that is known to make midget raindeers sterile!
MattExzy : The reasoning, or more simply put, the reason behind it, is simply money.
Makes your ac blow cooler then ever -100c
Kleanor Koufogiorgas "Or turn you into Spiderman, and who wouldn't want to be Spiderman?" -R666 defenders
This is how congress gets rich. I bet they bought stock in these companies before they passed the law. And by the way, people in congress can't be charged with insider trading based on legislation. What a world.
Leonard Smith yep, agreed, that's all it is to our U.S government. All they do is wonder and come up with ideas to line their pockets even more with our hard earned money, and that's all it is to them, money money money.
it's called Capitalism .
when I lived in Iraq ? it was against the law for any Government agent to buy any shares from any Private company , but if you owned a private company ? and you become an agent for government ? you could not be part of any voting or meeting that involved same type of product or category your company was based on . ( it Was ) I don't think in Iraq now that constitution apply . we have bunch of wasted skins running the country now and looting is free for all thieves .
sad but true .
Yep. This Republican government is screwing us blind. And it's going to get worse.
Sorry, nice try. This happened under Obama's EPA. It was done unilaterally, without congressional input.
@Anon Corruption is an equal opportunity endeavor for both parties. This legislation occurred under Obama.
Back during the changeover from R-12 to R-134a, many R-12 cars couldn't cool worth a darn, or there were leaks because of incompatible rubber compounds, etc. Once DIY work around was using propane and butane. Propane by itself has almost the same pressure curves as R-22........yes, it's been used in homes and refrigeration units illegally. The butane brings the pressure curve down to pretty well match R-12.
I had an R-12 Jeep and I tried all kinds of alternatives, and the propane/butane mix worked just like the R-12. R-134a just wasn't as efficient. Then I discovered my father in another state had a stash of R-12..............so that went in.
Anyway, one reason people screamed about not using the flammable gases was, well, they were flammable. So now it's officially sanctioned, put flammable refrigerant in your car!
Sometimes I wonder why the government has their nose in everything that works perfectly, yet refuses to fix crucial issues such as our national debt and opioid epidemic
MTB Addict liberals
exactly lol
They think if they ignore bigger problems long enough, they'll go away.
It's not their nose in it it's their hands in it.$$$$$$$$$
guess what... the government isn't the reason for the problem. it's the company that produces that stuff to make more $ and force it to become law with their lobbyists (hi Honeywell).
you can get a mixture of propane and butane to cool at the same level as current refrigerants do and it would cost you just a tiny fraction of what r1234yf costs (look at Australia eg). but hey that won't make those $hark chairman and stockholders happy.
This video has to be trending on youtube right now.
I am a air conditioner thermal design engineer, and I will say, you have a lot of good insights on refrigerants. The reason refrigerants are being changed again from something like R134a to R1234yf, etc is because the R134a has a higher GWP (global warming potential) than the R1234yf. This means that when the 134a is released into the atmosphere that it eventually will find its way up to high altitudes where it traps infrared (heat) from leaving the earth . This results in the atmosphere warming up. 134a has a GWP rating of 1430, and R1234yf has a GWP rating = 1.0
So you can release 1430 lbs of the R1234yf and have about the same affect on global warming as 1 lb of the 134a. I tend to agree with your observation about why do we worry about a 1000 lbs of refrigerant when a coal fired power plant releases a Unit trains worth ( 100 coal cars) per day of carbon into the atmosphere. That's just 1 of the 100's of coal plants in the USA.
STILL NO EXCUSE WHY THE BASTERDS CHARGE 45 DOLLARS FOR AN 8 OZ. CAN !!!
So what happens when one wrecks and catches fire. Doesn't that pollute.
@@rogervonschleusingen4603 they want production of the chemical to stop....easiest way to achieve that is a levy
evaporator leaks are extremely rare, i've been running r290 in my old gmc pickup's r12 system for over a decade and it's been flawless. still running the original a6 compressor.
BRAVO SCOTTY!! One of your best vids yet. Indeed, when you put up the picture of both political party mascots and said 'They are ripping us off'; never were truer words spoken.
Amen
Best RUclips mechanic hands down.
Scotty's videos like this one are great but I wish there was a way to really reach the masses on subjects like this. Most people buying a new car will be oblivious and go along with whatever BS the salesman feeds them
Man that's super lame. The old stuff was already expensive enough.
Scotty, thank you SO much for that info. I used to be an ASE Certified master tech in a prior life for over 15 years. I remember the royal pain when 134a came out in the mid 90’s. Jump to present day, have been out of it professionally for 21 years but still do my own work. Anyway, my wife purchased a new 19 Murano and my son bought a 19 Jetta. Just checked them. To my surprise, the Murano is still 134a, however the Jetta is that new 1234yf. If it wasn’t for the great content you put here I never would have realized. Happy for what you do for the people but beyond ticked off about the new stuff. Love you and keep up the great work. Greetings from Pearland.
I have never seen that refrigerant in any car but I'm glad to be aware of flammability for sure even if this video was published a year ago. Knowledge is power
The same could be said for new headlights, the endless proliferation of computer controls, and escalating complexity of systems that will soon break after the warranty expires. Vehicles these days are designed to hit the scrap yard much sooner, yet that factor (the environmental cost of making a completely new car, and junking the old) is never considered.
That's the plan, 8 years and their done. They are making them so complex the shade tree mechanic will find it harder and harder to repair his own.
The end game is dealer only service......I'll keep my old girls as long as possible thank you automobile manufactures, don't need your new junk.
New head lights? If you are talking about the fact they have to be plastic and not glass, that's because the glass ones were very dangerous to pedestrians, other motorists and yourself when you crashed. and they always left lots of glass on the road even is small accidents that would either need to have money spent to clean up, or hurt people walking as it gets spread around, also putting holes in tires. So plastic ones are much much safer, also the car companies don't mind, its cheaper and easier to make, also glass is really hard to make into nice shapes, especially when you want a particular size and finish, it shrinks a lot during cooling.
Banning pop up headlights is still the greatest atrocity in human history.
So your argument is that they aren't safer because people don't crash... look up some crash statics... and small crashes.. ones where only a front bumper and head lights are damaged don't have to be reported... so the number would be even greater! Well my last set of bulbs cost $14... Not really the $50 you are talking about, and they used to be square because it was too hard to make them into cool looking, aerodynamic effective shapes when they were made of glass. Not to mention when you get hit by a square you are way more likely to die... Yep, they turn yellow after a little while but its pretty cheap and easy to repair the yellowing... there are many methods from sand paper to simple buffing and plenty of products to help keep them from yellowing... So yeah they have some draw backs, don't last as long, more prone to scratching. But there are some pretty massive benefits, safer, don't leave glass everywhere, cheaper, can be made into more rounded shapes to be more aerodynamic meaning a faster cars that uses less fuel. Also bulbs are completely different, they are all built to last longer and provide more light in a way that helps both the driver and on coming traffic, not to mention people use the, what people will pay, method of pricing things, meaning if you will pay $50 for the lights then they will charge you $50... check ebay, sellers list the same item at a great number of prices often from $15 to $200 cause if someone is willing to pay $200 then they are happy to sell it at that amount. Also you can't just compare prices... breed is more expensive its called inflation everything gets a bit more expensive over time.
Also in the us alone in 2015 there were 5376 people killed by cars... who weren't in cars 5376 people were hit and killed by cars in the us alone... Now that's only people who were killed, it doesn't include any one who was injured! 70,000 people were estimated to be hit. the total cost of pedestrian injury among children ages 14 and younger is $5.2 billion per year... 5.2 billion a year, that would be a nice amount to shave off the debt don't you think... If we all drove cars with glass headlights that were box shapes I bet that number would be closer to half, so the pedestrian road death toll would go from 5000 to 35,000 meaning those crappy headlights are saving around 30,000 lives in the us alone! IF ALL YOU HAVE IS THAT CRASHES DON'T HAPPEN, PLEASE DON'T comment!
Aha I have a 1990 celica so I have pop up head lights... STILL LIVING THE DREAM!!!
Omg - can’t people just leave things alone !!!!
And to top it off- FLAMMABLE !!!!
This is a serious issue .
It's not like R134a wasn't flammable. Any hydrocarbon molecule is igniteable somewhere. Oh and R134a also decomposes to hydrofluoride (HF), which is a very dangerous gas. It will cause heartbeat irregularities and combined with Adrenaline (often given to people with heartbeat irregularities) it will stop the heartbeat completely. HF burns are also not fun as it reacts with the sweat on your skin to hydrofluoric acid, which will cause severe burns that will only start to show up and hurt a couple of hours later.
Username 1991 it doesn’t burn like wood does, no. But it does chemically decompose in a reaction with oxygen. It’s basically burning without a flame. And the fumes produced are highly toxic.
We are, in no circumstances, allowed to do A/C work when someone is welding in the garage because of the hazard.
Username 1991 alright I guess “flammable” and “chemically decomposable” are seen as different things. You’re right that it won’t combust at all. But it will decompose to hydrogen-fluoride which is, again, highly toxic and can be fatal. It cannot decompose to phosgene gas as there’s no chloride in R134a.
Not worried about the 65 litres of fuel you are driving around with?
Population control
When they outlawed Freon r12. They made a product called freeze 12 that was basically propane gas.
I STRONGLY agree with you Scotty, being an Auto A/C Technician myself.
thanks scotty, your the only out here looking out for us common folk!
You are the only one who is warning the public about this. Too late for me! I own a 2015 Dodge Dart with r1234yf. I know what the YF stands for now!! Sheesh!!
Walt's Channel You’re F*cked?
r1234yourfucked
😅😅😅😅😃😃😃😃😅 You're F*cked!! 😅😅😄😄😃😃😅😂😂
He said that he knows what that stands for
Walt's Channel yes it stands for you fool
I'm glad you make videos exposing the mechanics trade to the public I'm a mechanic to but in Australia so keep up the good work mate.
Legit why I love older cars. My 93 Passat still has ice cold AC and no signs of that quitting any time soon.
I would suspect the R134 patent expired....
John Thornton somebody has to make money from this
John Thornton you would be correct!
Is it Dupont that holds the patent?
@@ctscantechnologist on the old and the new according to another commenter.
Here's a funny story, when my dad worked for a GM dealer garage in the early 80s the boss would set the heat at 50º F in the winter time with a lock box around the thermostat so my dad would spray the cinder block wall around the thermostat with Freon. He said the boss had many hvac companies come out to find out why the heat wouldn't shut off haha. He told the boss what he had done the day he quit, said the dude got beat red in the face. That was suburban Pontiac Cadillac in Stamford Connecticut off of route 1, place is long gone.
Useful Entertainment smart
I just retrofitted my 1234YF to R134A. Works like a charm.
It’s great to see a guy who isn’t afraid of stating “as facts” things they really have nothing more than opinions to back them up! Yup… a real treat
The Germans know alot about poisonous gases.
Oceanjal lol @ ur sarcasm!
Yawn
Oceanjal. Rolling on the floor, LAUGHING my ass off!!!😁😁😁
Hahaha dangggg good one
COMMENT OFF THE YEAR
All I will say is thank you. This needs to be brought to light. As I am a Master Mechanic. I have been fighting this when I heard the change over was official. This change over is B/S.
George Campbell The cost of service on the new system is expensive. Which reduces the profit of shops as shops will sometimes compete with each other. It is a win to the consumer. But a loss to the shop. No shops I know of operate operate a non profit organization. When it was R 12 cheap to repair. Profitable for the shop. Customer can still buy groceries or go on vacation. Shop pays its taxes. Everyone makes money. When the change over to R 134a occurred the price went up slightly but still affordable to most. Shops make money pays its taxes. Customers can still afford to buy groceries or go on vacation. As AC work is lucrative if the mechanic is competent. Fix right the first time. The mechanics have more money to spend during the summer season which means they are supporting multiple sectors also. The above example puts money in many different sectors. Last I looked that is capitalism. Now with the this new crap. Way to costly. Consumer higher declined service rate. Or they have to get a lone. Or float the repair on the credit card. The consumer will either get rid of the car. Which results in the car most likely going to auction. Making it someone else's problem. The car could also end up in a junk yard creating a long term environmental problem. Or they will drive it broken. Which if it is a modern hybrid. What do think cools the batteries? You can not dispose of those batteries like normal batteries. Point is this change over is bad for everyone.
I also proved in a training class it is flammable. It ignited using a 9 volt battery. That is low flash point. Wondering what will happen if the vehicle gets an ignition leak and if the AC system springs a small leak under the hood. Or if the vehicle owner is a smoker and the evaporator leaks. Well I guess the owner can save money now as they will no longer have to pay for hair cuts or shaving or waxing. Or whatever method is used to remove hair. I guess it will put money in the medical field and in the death field. Which is also capitalism. But it will waste tax money as the police will be involved. I am rambling and ranting. I am all about technology advancement. Not when it is dumb and people fail to pay attention to what they use every day. Yes if your defroster is on so is the A/C.
George Campbell ...The change over does no favors for Automotive Technicians. As a flat rate technician I will make no more money then I would if it was r134a because the work performed is still the same procedures. If anything we will make less money because, as VicDich said, the cost of the 1234yf refrigerant will make for less sales. The reason for this is most people buy cars they can barely afford then when it breaks they can't afford the repair since they are living paycheck to paycheck barely making the payments on the vehicle. Example..most European car owners!!!!
@@VicDich : Well said brother, well said! Too bad nobody listens to us, the general public.
So stick to r12 for my jeep xj?? Was thinking of converting
I think it's a big scam, because the patents are expiring, so they make up another recipe every so many years, and keep the monopoly.
I remember when you could buy the little cans of R12 for 79 cents.
I remember when you could sunbathe all day without getting skin cancer
@@victorunbea8451 stop it with this false propaganda.
What’s wrong with Vic’s statement. I grew up playing in the sun. So did all of my friends. Constantly outdoors through out my life. I am 70 and do not know one person who died of melanoma, skin cancer. Yet you state propaganda? I wonder who has been swallowing all of the nonsense from the enviro terrorist? Like DDT? Alar? No need to go on and on. Climate change, no science just money makers and Stalins “useful idiots”.
25 cents for me in the 60's.
Making two cooling systems so that the AC isn’t in the dash if it explodes in your face. Like Scotty said, stick with R134a because it’s non-flammable and cost less.
Unknown Gamer *costs less for now
Cause seriously, R134a is going to end up like Freon, Rare and expensive. Probably best to start stocking up on the bottles now.
my ac doesnt work so im as safe as possible
Dominik lmaooo niceeeeeee😂😂😂😂🤙🏽🤙🏽🤙🏽
Dominik 😂😂😂😂😂
My car does not have aircon at all, but it does have a stick shift : )
That means you have released the toxic gas into the atmosphere. Hmmm...
Frank manual for the win
Scott. What a life saver. Time to get my 30 pounds R134 tank. I’m not a mechanic but I do have 3 cars and if they make a conversion kit- that would be the end of R134- just as it was for the R12
My Toyota 4 runner has the original R12. The dealer said they had to retrofit it to r134a when I took it there for service, I told them no way are they going to touch it. R12 blows so cold.
It may blow so cold, but don't let it run too low or you may find your compressor seizing up, always remember that the refrigerant brings the oil along with it. A well done R134A conversion is the best thing to do in my own opinion.
Just worry about the a/c when it dies why mess with it now while it's working it night go for 5 yrs yet lol
The problem is, he may have to replace the entire AC system... his TXV (if he has one) might be inside the dashboard... if the compressor's belt is shared with P/S, alternator, water pump then, when it "dies", it may make other important services die together with it...
I replaced the entire a.c. system in my 1988 Dodge which was r12 of course. The brand new hoses, dryer, compressor, evap and condenser are all r134a compliant according to the labeling and drop right in. The new condenser is actually thinner but bolts right up.
What are you people talking about R12 and r134a compliant? It's refrigerant. Granted if there was .a huge pressure difference between the two I could understand. I've never had a problem evacuating the old R12 out and putting the new r134a in. There are different connections for R12 and r134a but I paid like $4 dollars for each of those. Now this new stuff with the explosive nature and all that, it sounds like a new ball game and we will have to wait and see how that train wreck works out.
Not to demean the value of any of your previous videos, but this is a most important video. The change from R12 to 134a was more financially and politically driven than scientifically driven. R12 had, at most, a minuscule effect on the environment but was a cheap, effective, efficient and proven refrigerant. It should never have been changed. I am grateful you are bringing this to everyones' attention, as this proposed change is a million times worse. This PROVES that the EPA is not just scientifically bereft, it is economically driven and politically corrupt. And our "representatives" , congress, is yet again moronically asleep at the wheel. Or more probably, on the take.
istvan meissler All government agencies are more or less corrupt. It doesn't matter which country it is and it doesn't matter if it's democratic or a dictatorship.
Its to put the diy people of of business
Wait until the big three follow John Deere's lead.
Hell even mechanics will go out of business. People just wont pay this much money. And if they pay on credit basis, they won’t be able to repay that back and the 1930’s will repeat itself :)))
no they wont. those that can afford the equipment will do so. those that don't, wont bother. Not every mechanic has an alignment machine (which costs thousands), they're still doing fine.
It's called business. Here in Chile they passed a law that compels drivers to wear high visibility jackets when their car breakes down, so the idea is that when you get out to fix it or see what's going on you gotta wear the jacket. The thing normally costs about 1,50$ (roughly) when they passed the law the prices risen to 7 $ a piece. It was just a scam because somebody made those jackets and asked the governemnt to pass the law. Interestingly enough, on the first week a bloke got out of the car with the jacket on and all and was ran over and kill by a policewoman.
Wow. That's the definition of irony, right there!
I was told by a car air conditioning expert that the patent run out every 15 years so they have to change it so nobody but the original supplier can make money,
Exactly same for refrigerators, flammable toxic gas
I agree with you Scotty!!! I will hold on to my old vehicle!
RoyalKingA73 i have decided to spend my whole life with old cars..
Very true
In EU - Germany for example are people FORCED by government to get rid of their old car. You get donation to buy a new car. Good donation,but hey . .new cars are crap. Start stop,steer by wire,electronic handbrake,now new AC gas. . .terrible
jirka87 that's terrible. No way I'd be forced to buy newer.
You are completely right!
I use to do A/C work. I used the same recovery machine for any freon. You use a different tank to store it in. You can keep a storage tank to flush the freon that is in the machine to so you don't get it mixed up. You might want to check on that cause it makes no sense.
Isn't it funny that the ozone is not damaged by a refrigerant until the patent expires?
Warren Pierce in fact, there was already evidence that the ozone hole is already closing up, before any mass adoption of 1234yf.
Scotty was wrong with his rant. The issue with 134a isn't ozone depletion (like it was with R-12). It is the fact that 134a is a potent greenhouse gas. These are 2 separate issues.
I watched your video Scotty and guess what; Mercedes Benz tested the new r1234yf mixed with refrigerant oil and sprayed it on a hot engine and it caught fire.They did simulated collisons with that stuff in the ac systems and it caught fire over 60% of the time.All the German automakers are pulling out of the r1234yf deal and switching to CO2 like you said.And when that r1234yf stuff burns it releases not one,but 2 very toxic gases and the HF gas can actually blind you by burning out your corneas in your eyes.The other gas Carbonyl Flouride is very toxic and is chemically related to Phosgene poison gas like was used in WW1.And this is what the liberal politicians and their climate change agenda is unleashing upon us poor sheeple.Bah!And,of course the politicians will never amend this requirement until there are class action lawsuits from people who were burned or blinded or poisoned ,except the dead ones won't be able to sue so their dependents will have to and then the politicians will find some way to blame the whole thing on some auto companies that were forced to comply with the regulation and put the stuff in their cars.
Nice... might as well be using ammonia. Lawyers should never engage in acts of science.
except porsche... thanks porsche
Wow, scary stuff. Wait until people hear about gasoline.
i have learned in hvac school that all the new systems being phase out are replaced with much higher pressurized systems ,,,,for example 410a low side home unit 125psig ,,,,high side about 340 or so ? just saying they are heading seems like wrong way ? our teacher back in the day had over 35 yrs in the field and its all about money of course ,,and the r22 being phased out was only about 70 psig low side as an example ,,i know nothing about this new 1234 r at all ,,,,,i payed 60 bucks for a 134a at rural king out of all places did ask me for papers nothing out the door ,,,,june 2019 for the record ,,,,thank you scott your always good at this ,,,keep it up ,,,,,stay healthy
It cost a lot of money because they haven't ramped up production of it yet worldwide. Just like it use to cost a lot for r134a when first came out switching from the R12.
Also, patents
Great analogy with the printer ink.... you can buy the ink refills or buy a whole new printer for the same price
Darren Davenport I still feel I got lucky with my old printer, you can buy the black and color cartridges together for $30 on Amazon with free shipping, I'll be holding onto that thing for a while now, as it beats the $100 cartride change of the CMYK printer we got to replace it
The printer aftermarket business came out with a work-around for this expensive cartridges : the continuous ink supply system (CISS) where 4 ink tanks were attached on the outside of the printer and supplied ink through small tubes to the cartridges inside. Then the empire struck back : the printer manufacturers put a counter that monitors the cartridge usage and then declares the perfectly working cartridge as unusable after a number of hours. So the rebels reacted by buying up used cartridges to replace these cartridges marked as unusable (probably with some identification code hard-wired inside the cartridge circuit board).
Al Bert wow, that sounds insane.... seems "the man" will go through great lengths to screw the little guy
Yard Sale Dale i totally agree.... i do a ton of photography and i just gave up on home printing.... i find the newer Kodak machines at walmart do a great job with MUCH less hassle...
Justin Noker ya, you definitely got lucky with that one...
You know this just motivates me to keep an older vehicle a whole lot longer. although I just bought a 2018 Chevy Colorado back in December. I should be good for the next 15-20 Years cuz I'm not buying a vehicle for a very, very, very long time. I swear our government is so ridiculous messing with things that are not broken so why fix it. If they want something do they should fix all these roads that are jacked up with potholes.
Make sure to do all of the recommended maintenance early or on time. And get some corrosion protection on the chassis parts asap. Good luck getting a GM to last 15-20.
Nick Smith it's funny that you bring that up because I have a 2001 Cavalier with 250,000+ miles on it and I've done about 80% of the work myself, And it's still running strong.
Agreed, I am sticking with our older vehicles as long as I can keep them running. Now that we have moved south rust will no longer be an issue which will be wonderful
Robert Bell yea, I'm in tx np problem with rust here. Just keep up with regular maintenance. I strongly believe that if it's not broken don't fix it. I just use full synthetic Mobil 1 oil, with a Wix XP oil filter and I normally go about 10K before replacing the oil and I've had no problems.
As always Scotty knows and I listen to what he says . If something you do to your car goes belly up its because you didn't follow his directions precisely.
After seeing a few vehicles with it, I'm a fan of Freeze-12. It's just as efficient as R-12, much less costly, and has larger molecules than R-134a so less prone to leaking out. You can also safely convert an R-134a system to Freeze-12. According to the EPA if you're using an R-12 system and want to convert to Freeze-12, you have to convert to 134a first and then convert that to Freeze-12. My '88 Toyota still uses R-12 and as long as I can get my hands on that I'll keep using it, but once it gets to the point of getting harder to get, I'll convert.
Edit: Wrong name. Not Freeze-12, Duracool 12a
damn please dont give away one of those flamable gas this week
Scotty has helped me from when I was an oil changer 5 years ago to a master technician. Forever grateful for this channel!
Next video, Scotty will say you can't use a car that uses gasoline because it requires a flammable liquid.
ive got 4 antique cars....going to keep them too.
Dang! So is it time yet to start stocking up and hoarding the R134a?
Jonny DIY Only if you got a newer car that requires it
I'll store it next to the incandescent light bulbs and 3.5GPF toilets nobody wants. Or I'll just keep my Toyotas like Scotty. Hard to believe I bought my camry when I was 26 and now I'm 42 still driving it. Quite an improvement from my Fix-Or-Repair-Daily
you can still buy r22 is just like 200/jug and thats in california
BigNastyreborn if you can get r22 for 200 a jug, you better buy much as you can and hold on to it. I’m in SC and was looking at it last week. $550 a jug here. Even at that price it’s worth it when it was close to $1000 a year or so ago.
do you do hvac or refer?
Im an A/C tech. And i approve this message.
Public_ Juan how long did it take you to become one my friend? I'm looking into car computer science because they're becoming more and more advanced
Greenhelix5 Glad you asked pal. I went to school 13 months. Im certified to work on pretty much anything on A/C . Refrigerators, residential, and even industrial units. Im not an expert on automobile A/C but the refrigeration cycle is exactly the same. Every refrigeration system consists of 4 major components.
Greenhelix5 but cars are getting hella more complicated with computers nowadays. You're in the right field my good sir.
Im def going to retrofit my honda. Thank you for the video
I'm glad I'm not the only one with concerns. Honda started with 2018 models
Honeywell/DuPont Corp own the rights to this new refrigerant. Guess who paid off congress? After the Germans tested it, and were horrified about its flamability, they started work on the CO2 systems. Here's a nice excerpt:
"In December 2012, Mercedes-Benz showed that the substance ignited when researchers sprayed it and A/C compressor oil onto a car's hot engine. A senior Daimler engineer who ran the tests, stated "We were frozen in shock, I am not going to deny it. We needed a day to comprehend what we had just seen." Combustion occurred in more than two thirds of simulated head-on collisions. The engineers also noticed etching on the windshield caused by the corrosive gases. BMW, and VW-Audi agreed with Mercedes and left the SAE R-1234yf CRP Team, stating that the performed tests are not sufficient to fully judge the safety of their vehicles. The German automakers have been leaning towards carbon dioxide refrigerant, which may be safer for both passengers and the environment."
Hey Scotty, European dude here that did his F-gases certificate recently. I absolutely agree with you for the most part, r1234yf is ridiculous and the CO2 system has definite shortcomings too (one you haven't mentioned; the power they suck from the engine. A regular compressor running on R134a uses anywhere between 3-7 horsepower. A CO2 compressor, that has to up the pressure from 60 bar low pressure to 120 bar high pressure, easily takes up to 60 horsepower to run). However, I do not agree with the problem you state about the fact that the regulation is completely nonsensical and it's like shutting the barn after the cattle already ran away.
An A/C system is an open system, because it is driven mechanically and because of the mechanical action it cannot be hermetically sealed like a refrigerator. An A/C system can leak up to 10% of it's load annually just because of imperfect seals, O-rings and whatnot. A system is usually loaded with about 500 grams of refrigerant in an average car; that's an annual leakage of 50 grams. the GWP (Global Warming Potential) value of R134a is 4470, so it is a 4470x more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. With a regular car emitting about 170 grams per kilometre, that's an annual leakage of about 800 miles of CO2 emissions, just by having the car sitting there with a charged A/C system. For Americans that can be like a week of driving, but in a lot of other countries in Europe, that can be an additional month of driving. So it isn't nothing.
Also, R134a is not depleting the Ozone anymore. Chemicals that have chloride in them (hence the C in (H)CFKs) break down the ozone layer. Chemicals without chloride do not deplete the ozone layer. R134a is a HFK (Hydro-fluor-carbon), so it does have an effect on global warming, but not on the ozone layer.
Lastly, R134a doesn't really 'burn' but it can decompose with oxygen (basically burning, but there will be no flame) at higher temperatures. R134a consisting of hydrogen, carbon and fluoride too, it also decomposes to HF which is nasty stuff. It causes heartbeat irregularities and when combined with adrenalin, it will cause a complete heartbeat stop. PSA to everyone: if an incident with refrigerants take place, DO TELL THE EMERGENCY RESPONDERS. People with heartbeat irregularities will usually give a shot of adrenalin to get the heart going again, but in combination with HF, it will quit the heartbeat altogether. Always hand them the safety card of the chemicals when an accident happens.
Otherwise, this was a surprisingly in-depth explanation of the gases and it's shortcomings for the length of the video. Love your content! Keep up the good work :)
Lets also say that most people don't know jack about mobile AC systems so that they basically turn them on only in the Summer. Well, in some countries such as Canada and Sweden, it's just the weather that won't allow you to turn AC anytime else anyway. That way, leaks aggravate. And that's also why you hear of so many compressors fatally seizing up and maybe taking a serpentine belt along with them too (refrigerant carries lubrication across the system and back to the compressor and low refrigerant decreases lubrication rate).
Absolutely. It is not without reason checking your A/C system has a regular service intervals. Only who checks their manuals nowadays...
Mark Richards It should be on your AC service station or delivered with every tank of refrigerant. If not, the manufacturer has them on their website. Print it out and put it with the service station/chemicals. I hope you’ll never get to need it, but have it there just in case.
My car's maintenance schedule doesn't list AC service in any way. The manual only says to turn on the AC system for some minutes each month. Little history: it's a family car and, before i could drive it, the owner turned the AC on only in the summer and never had any AC service done, all of this for 8 years. The compressor, an Harrison CVC, didn't seize, but it tripped the clutch coil's thermal fuse and ceased engaging. A new clutch coil, and it's still doing its job, even though it's 15 years old. The car is now receiving an AC service every 3 years and the AC is being turned for some minutes every week, and the condenser is being kept clean too.
Thank you big time for posting this video, it filled in the blank spots for me. I lived the majority of my life in northern New England and never worried about air-con in my home or in a work vehicle. Now, after almost 6 years in the Philippines, I have been offered a sweet deal on an old turbo-diesel with very few miles on the clock. Never beat up in Manila, only used gently by one owner (who I know personally) in our province. When researching the few flaws in the vehicle, I see the air-con was repaired many times in recent years. I will be asking questions but I am already thinking the system was NOT charged with the proper refrigerant. Depending on which model compressor was installed, either R12 or R134A was used.back in 1993. I am betting that Phil government caved into climate change B/S and this is why repairs do not last. I guess I need a bigger fan in the cabin here in the tropics?
Well that explains why the dealer did everything they could not to have to open my system to fix an oil leak. Didn't realize that they need all new equipment. That was early 2016
Good info, Thanks Scotty!
Future technology is getting hard on real car lovers...
ride probs amen to that. Can't stand anything newer than 2010 & even that is very new and overly engineered to me.
Not to mention about the use of plastics everywhere i cant stand it anymore... about over engineering. Engineers has to being something even though its stupid or they will be jobless haha..
Caveat Lector totally agreed... now a days people dont enjoy their ride or feel the passion.. they just want to go from point a to point b.. that makes me sad...
Yol Drove a 2016 Ford Fusion after getting out of a 2000 Chevy Impala. The Fusion felt like a big heap of cheap overpriced plastic compared to the Impala. No leg room, tons of blind spots, and little torque with poor handling. The no ignition push button start makes no sense. The Impala on the other hand feels like a well engineered (not over engineered) land yacht that takes turns like a sports car despite being large, has tons of torque (Chevy 3800), a lot more leg room, and believes it or not , more visibility despite being longer and wider. Yet they’re both rated for the same gas mileage. “Flex fuel” injectors and “eco boast” turbo 4 cylinder engines are the worst over engineered “technological improvements” to hit the automotive industry. 90% of the people I know aren’t seeing these vehicles as over hyped and engineered monstrosities as pieces of junk like I have been since they first appeared. Wouldn’t want to see the struggle with reliability in the long run. Goodbye to the car enthusiast world. The only good thing left in the US.
The GWP of C02 is 1 which is output from combustion, cars/powerplants. R134 has a GWP of 1300, R1234yf has a GWP of 4. While the small amount that may leak of R134 it never goes away and has a huge affect on global warning while co2 has smaller effect per unit and can go away while R134 sticks around for much longer.
Scotty thanks for the update, I keep driving my 2004 Nissan Sentra now that it has a good motor in it I got off eBay 3 weeks ago, and I use this Maxi-Fridge that seems to work good in old ac units that is cross compatible with all auto ac r12, r134a and I assume the new crap now too and it about 58 dollars a case.
It is amazing to me that R416A is not used more. We have used it to convert from R12 in old buildings for years. More efficient than R134A, fairly priced................OOPS! DUPONT DOESN'T HOLD THE PATENT!! More proof that it's all about corporate GREED!
I’m from the government and I’m here to help.
the classic Ronald Reagan quote. ;)
Then go and get a job.
I have yet to figure out how some people are actually honest in the government. Hint: I work for the government.
That's why I don't vote, they're ALL CROOKS !!!
No thanks
I remember when I saw the thumbnail for this, along with the title, I was suspecting the one thing I've been seeing I these newer mini-fridges, "refrigerant is flammable". Watching this video confirmed that suspicion.
To be safe, I checked my own car, a 2016 Ford Fusion 2.5L, owing to how new it is. Under the hood, it has all the fluid info right on a placard, one of which being the refrigerant, which turned out to be, much to my relief, R-134A.
You should make a video about how some of the ac’s are failing. I have heard of some failures before leaving the dealership. I have been using propane on my older equipment, works great.
Another homerun video Scotty thanks for the info ! btw this change really sucks😝
I gotta correct you "inflammable" means it BURNS!!! You said " non-flammable" THAT is correct THANK YOU for understanding And great video! Peace out.
It's interchangeable
good info
i still use freon 12
Thank you, Peter Criss.
I miss r12!
I never thought I would see the day I would hear mechanics that knows anything about it say r134a is the better alternative. I must be really really old..
meee too, everyone knows that to use 134a in a r12 auto the only way it will ever work is to put in a 20-30% larger condenser. I have a 1986 k5 blazer that used r12, also a 91 suburban that uses 134a, also a 93 1500 extended cab pickup, both of the later trucks use a lot bigger condenser from the factory. I still use r12 in my fieros but will be changing to the propane mix when they need to re topped off I think.
Makes me glad that I already decided to keep my -16 dart sxt
I top up my AC with lighter refil (butan gas) works perfectly.
Thanks for the info, that new refrigerant seems like a bad idea.
From what I understand, R12 was tossed to the side and called ozone depleting after the patent expired. Welcome to r134a. New refrigerant, new patent. If I'm not mistaken, Dupont holds the purse strings, I mean patents, on these two. I wonder if the patent on r134a is about to expire, and Dupont is looking to hold on to their place in the refrigerant market?
Bingo!
Give that man a cigar! As soon as the patent runs out on your previous refrigerant, just convince the government(s) that it's harmful to the environment (easier if it really is harmful, but not necessary because everyone is ready to believe horror stories about the environment) and needs to be outlawed. But now we have NEW IMPROVED patented refrigerant you have to buy!
R12 IS ozone depleting. It chemically breaks down into Cl atoms which then "eats" away the ozone. R134a does NOT do this, because it cannot break down to the same degree that r12 does. Chemistry, thankfully, is solid ground to tread on - if you know the structure of the molecule you will know how it will react.
Source: am chemist
This is correct. R-134a has near-zero ozone depleting effect. However, it has moderate global warming potential. So, that a GWP of the refrigerant in a typical car is similar to the GWP of CO2 from driving 3000-4000 miles.
The role of R-1234yf is to reduce the GWP of the refrigerant to a negligible level. However, as stated it has the disadvantage that it is slightly flammable. However, it can be ignited in certain circumstances when mixed with an oil spray and exposed to extremely high temperatures (e.g. an exhaust manifold/turbo). It should not be forgotten that R-134a while it will not ignite in these same circumstances, will also decompose to produce hydrogen fluoride when exposed to this type of heat, so the R-1234yf is not that much worse.
Some manufacturers are working on a 90:10 mixture of R-1234yf/R-134a, which is significantly more difficult to ignite, to the point that it is "virtually non flammable".
Having said all that though, this is a lot of money for a relatively modest change in GWP, albeit a non-negligible change. With R-134a, assuming each car gets 2 refill over the course of its 200k mile life, and the final charge is recycled when the car is scrapped, then that works out as about 3% of the car's global warming contribution comes from the AC rather than the fuel. The manufacturers are falling all over themselves to get a 3% reduction in fuel consumption, so from a political perspective R-1234yf is an easy win.
Heh. Well industry lobbies do have some say, do they not?
Scotty Here is another one for the list. Just found out today that my 2014 Ram 1500 has the new R1234YF system in it.
You are right Scotty
The new freon regulation is ridiculous! Who here wants to go to Washington with me and discuss it with the law makers? Comment and thumbs!
If you and others do go, the group couldn't even come CLOSE to the amount of money lobbyists' donate.
You're entirely correct. Saw that apostrophe later. (Wish there was a way to edit remarks like there are on various car forms.)
Sorry--meant car "forums" (typing too fast, not proofreading.)
its not freon. freon will if gets loose quickly destroy Ozone it comes in contact with!
AZMike - You can edit your comments. Hover your cursor over your comment and a little icon with three vertical dots will appear to the right of your comment. Click on the three-dots icon, and as long as you're signed in you will have an "edit" option for your comments.
Now... if RUclips could allow me to link to your username in my response and have fully nested comments like every other social media system on the internet...
*** Look at that I made a typo and edited my comment! ****
WHAT were they even thinking?!?!
Josh Bacon Doug's the type of guy to saw a boat in half and fix it with flex tape.
They're thinking.. How can rob them even more.
Josh Bacon
M
O
N
E
Y
Profits of course
Depopulation!
I had no clue about this. Crazy on a stick. Scotty, you rock.
You can put r-134a refrigerant in r-1234yf system just buy connector on ebay. Did this on my 2017 Chevy Cruze, works good.
Holy Smokes!!! *3 Grand!?*
$3000 for 30 pounds. I work for a GMC dealership as a tech.the new yukons have 1234yf and with front and rear climate control the entire system only takes about 2lbs. so yes its more expensive and seems to be dangerous but you arent paying for 30 pounds of it. and as in most new things its pricey at 1st and over time the price falls. but then again the cost of a new yukon xl denali runs about 70-80k so if you can spend that kind of change for a vehicle whats a few hundred of dollars for ac ?
you tell me. i do oil changes for people and they scream at the idea of $94 for full synthetic at 5 quarts for a brand new 2018 yukon with like 5K miles on it.
Johnny Draco- cars...
As well they should. I just got a full synthetic Mobil 1 oil change for $53.
Johnny: Televisions.
Hurry, stock up on r134a
Gotta buy myself a bunch of DIY bottles then, enough to last me probably the next 20 years sounds alright, only gonna need one per season max to top off, though it'll more likely be one every 3-5
It’s all about money. And they definitely don’t care about our safety.
Scotty, you totally nailed this.
Wow *3 Grand!??* What a rip off
AllNamesRntAvailable, yeah that's just absurd bro...
It is probably due to high demand and low supply. Since a few cars use it not every one is making it. The older types have the same problem. My great uncle ran an HVAC company and use to paid like 30 dollars for a 30lb bottle of the older house stuff he had to buy one a bit ago and it was like 400 or something. Plus I am sure that it being flammable has a tax and safety tag on it.
Here in europe prices for R1234yf drop and for R134a rise. This is due to a artificial limitation of R134a imports. But there is still a problem for people driving an "older" car with R134a: One can exchange it with R1234yf, but guess what - its forbidden by law (if the car is involved in an accident, firefighters have to know for sure whats inside). This really is a big rip off!
What he's not telling you is that r1234yf has a different weight per volume. That 10lb cylinder is actually the equivalant in size to the 30lb cylinder of r-134a as you will use roughly 35% as much hydrocarbon based refrigerant as you you will hfc based refrigerant. So a system that takes roughly 3 lbs if r-134a will only require 1lb of r1234yf. That doesn't change the fact that r1234yf is WAY overpriced, but it isn't nowhere near as bad as he is making it out to be.
3 grand for putting a bomb in your car? is it really worth $3000, to turn your car into the next version of a car bomb?
Great info Scotty.
Many good points made Scotty. It's a 'green', eco' rip off, and dangerous too.