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Just wanna say, getting right into the content of the video is such a breath of fresh air. Most youtubers would have had a 7 minute intro explaining who they are, why they're making the video, outlining their credentials, begging people to crush the subscribe button and molest the bell etc.
This is great timing, I was talking about some similar topics yesterday at a crag. Specifically placing more than one piece before a crux if gear failure there would be a certain groundfall, we saw so many people runout to the crux, plug one small cam when they could easily put in a 2nd, and then take or fall on it like they're whipping on bolts. Sure, I've never had a piece pull that I fell on, but if it's quick and easy to give yourself some life insurance then why not?
Excellent discussion. At 70+ I'm pretty much a retired (trad) climber. I started my climbing in Yosemite in the early 70s, so I saw and participated in the introduction of nuts, sticky rubber and eventually camming devices. Indeed, it is cams that lead to mistake number one. Just too easy. Sometimes you see videos of pitches where the climber isn't carrying a single nut and the crack has all these superb hex and stopper opportunities.
Wow you must have seen quite a lot of things! I can’t wait to get into trad, I am now 25 with 16 years climbing on my back but I still feel so fresh and unknowing in climbing sometimes… do you have like a one sentence advice to give?
@@lovis_hertel What really helped me learn to place good gear was aiding easy finger cracks. You quickly learn that if a placement doesn’t hold body weight, it sure as hell isn’t going to hold a lead fall! Read a little about basic aid climbing, set up a toprope and practice placing and standing on gear while protected by the top rope. It was an eye-opener to me to see that what I would have trusted was a good placement while free climbing actually popped right out when I weighted it while aiding. My placements got better real fast!
Great video, thanks for the great tips, and all the rest mentioned below in the comments. As a trad climber of 4 decades I have seen most all these errors done more than once. A couple times to calamitous results. I haven't read through the whole list of comments, so maybe this has already been mentioned, but at 6:39 you sling a tree with double ropes, meaning you are going to have to pull a whole rope's length around the bark of the tree to retrieve your ropes. Now, if the tree were overhanging the route it would be bad enough for the tree, but here it's even worse with the friction caused by the ropes running over the cliff edge, meaning one must pull even harder to retrieve the ropes. This is horrible for the tree bark and may even kill the tree if more than one party uses this technique. Please sacrifice a long enough sling and a carabiner and hang your anchor point over the edge or as close to it as you can, and save the tree for another party, if not for the life of the tree itself and all the creatures that depend o n it. Thank you. PS. I love double rope climbing especially as my favorite climbs are long trad multipitch.
Sometimes I tend to be a bit too conservative placing gear because I don't want to place pieces in one location that I might need higher up. Recently I've decided to try placing gear more liberally near the start of the route (and also above ledges), where the consequences of falling are greater, and allowing myself to be a bit more conservative higher up the route, where the consequences of falling are less severe (as long as the quality of the placements are good), having a tendency to save more useful pieces of gear in case I need them for the anchor. So basically varying how much gear I place as I progress up the route depending on the consequences of falling at each potential placement
Excellent thoughts. To often climbers don't recognize that a ledge is the equivalent of hitting the deck. I believe a route called Nutcracker in Yosemite is responsible for a fair number of bad injuries because the crux is just above a ledge though at least a pitch off the ground. With a false sense of security climbers end up falling directly onto the ledge. Having failed to place their first piece of gear after the belay.
I think I have the same tendency now of being stingy with my placements and running stuff out lower. Something I will be correcting after reading this.
Really good info, Pete, and thanks for reexplaining the reasoning for double rope belay. It wasn’t much of a thing in the US in the 80s and 90s, but I was aware of this technique being used in Europe. We tended to use single or double runners to more align the rope to reduce rope drag. Saved double ropes for ice/mixed climbing. Cheers.
I'm an American and I have to agree with you totally on using double ropes. At first it seemed like it was just more faffing but the abseiling/rappelling difference is *huge*, and using them to reduce fall distance has kept me off a serious groundfall at least twice that I can recall.
@@leoingson Let's say there's a piece of gear at 10 ft, and a piece of gear at 16ft. If you clip the second piece from below, your belayer has to feed out rope, and if you fall clipping, this extra slack will cause you to groundfall. But with doubles your belayer doesn't have to feed out any slack on the rope you've clipped, so if you fall while clipping the unclipped rope, your belayer can still keep you off the ground with the clipped rope. Similar situations can occur if you fall while below the second piece, and the second piece comes out.
@ "Too much sport slack": it´s a multi-faceted issue. 1. Indeed, big falls generate more impact force on a piece of gear, which then might rip out, so better have less slack in the system. 2. My solution: to lessen the impact force, best to move with and pay out more rope at the moment of impact to lessen the risk of it being ripped out. 3. Paying out more rope may mean the falling climber may hit terrain lower down the route, but at least the gear has a higher chance to stay where it is (!!) 4. Belaying above ground on a multipitch route: you can still create space to move with an impacted rope by creating more distance between yourself and the centre point of your belay beforehand, f.e. by using a longer belay sling. 5. And, of course, falls closer to the ground also generate more impact force because there´s less rope to soften it - but you can´t really pay out that much rope to prevent a grounder.
I have never done trad climbing and don't think I will even attempt it in this life, but everything you are saying makes total sense. Thank you for this very informative video.
nice one Pete, you're right about jamming, after years of neglecting it I've started using it and find myself cruising routes I would have just got pumped and scared on only six months ago.
Switching to a fixed point belay on multi pitch eliminates being yanked into the wall and allows more freedom and options from your belay. Also reduces load on the anchor
@@Govanification you can use an Edelrid mega jul like an atc for the fix point belay. If you don't have it you can alway do some backup slip knot on the brake side of the rope before start climbing.
@@maximecastilloux9049 Hmm I have the gigajul, I'll have to try out a fixed point belay with it in brake assist mode. My gut feeling is it may be a bit of a faffe having to hook the loop with your thumb to feed slack. Interesting idea with the slip knots, although that also sounds like a faffe as the belayer would have to tie them every 10ft or so to be effective, and then untie them constantly while lead belaying. I've never heard of that!
@@Govanification you can tied them before starting and it's very easy to untie, I do this in lead rope solo to backup my system and untie them while I lead. (I've never see this in a different situation)
In guide Mode the climbing rope automatically Blocks the rope in a fall, if you're climbing on Single rope just use a gri gri, otherwise just use the mega Jul or mamut smart alpine as they work for double rope in belaying the leader and the second with the added brake assitance.
Great advice. I learned the value of jamming on a trad route that i had only toproped before and never used the jams. Of course, when it came time to lead it I was more scared so i looked for any additional security and I found that in a bomber fist jam. Such a wonderful feeling.
Three more. 1. keep the rope "quiet" when passing. When going past a tight rope can pull the piece outwards dislodging it and can fall out or not be "set". 2. Use runners. This allows the rope to move out without dislodging the piece. Also decreases rope drag. If you put two pieces together put a full runner on the second piece. The first one catches the fall the other is less likely to pull if the first one is dislodged. 3. practice looking at the possible placements, select the piece and place it. If it doesn't fit and you have to re-rack it, it is a fail. Too many times people don't develop the skill to place protection the first time, then when you get pumped you just throw something in and hope for the best. Get your nose in there and really look at the placement. BONUS: lay backs are the technique of no technique. This leads to running it out and not being able to take a hand off to place gear and hoping that you will make it so rest. Or just putting in a blind cam and hoping for the best. Better to us a jam, keep over your feet, and if you can't get a good placement, back off, before it gets dire.
There's something to be said about placing upward pull anchors on an anchor. If one gets ripped up catching a fall, it can cause the anchoring system to be displaced.
I remember doing Moby Dick center in Yosemite back in the 80s. Facing 70' of off-width that sucked my arm in to the shoulder and that narrowed at the back to just fit a #4 friend at arms reach. Having placed my first of only2 #4s on my rack, at the base of the off-width, I had to place and move the other cam upward with every squirming move my body made upward. 65' of nudging the cam upwards hoping that the lobes wouldn't reach a wide spot. Definitely felt sandbagged on that one. "Na Dave, the crux is down low, you'll cruise the upper section".
Nice video. Hard work to condense all that info in to such a short piece and you made some great points. I learned some things. You've got a new subscriber.
Your absolutely right about double, twin twin ropes. The route dictates what system you use. Twin ropes are not for beginners. There's a lot of nuances to learn when using twins. Eg feeding out slack while bringing in slack at the same time
1. RUNNERS! Better to fall a little longer that going past your gear and it pulling out. Or the longer the runner the less the piece will move. And, of course, rope drag. 2. Be smooth when clipping the rope. If you jerk the rope up after setting the piece the belayer will put out more rope to anticipate you pulling the rope and this will be worse when you are out of sight. Nobody likes to short rope a leader but you can't have it both ways.
Another important reason for using double rope for trad is the maximum shock load (sorry don't know the exact English term) it has. This means the extra elasticity it has will reduce the load on a piece, guaranteed under the maximum load of that piece. For instance, a double rope has a max shock of 5kN whilst your cams take 7kN. Thus reducing the risk of ripping a piece significantly.
I was climbing a 5.10a I had a crappy placement before I ran out of gear a perpel ball but I did not think it was going to hold. Got 5 feet up and I could not make the ruff I slipped and it held. After that I tuck off my gear sling and I finished it
Another great job. I would add a couple points. 2 bad pieces is never as good as one good piece so you might be better off going for the better placement. Also, if double ropes are avoidable, you can save a lot of effort by avoiding them(and avoid anchor paralysis by placing too much gear). Good work
I'm surprised you didn't cover zippering. People have been hurt putting in nuts in a crack (especially as their pro at the start) and then when they fall and the rope tightens the direction of pull is changed to an upward pull and the nuts pop out, from the bottom up, resulting in no protection and a grounder. Putting in a cam at the start is safer, IMHO. I agree with using two ropes. Once you use two ropes a few times you won't go back to singles, especially on trad climbs that meander around (the Sierra), or have long rappels (The Needles).
Double ropes…once you try using them, you will never want to use a single rope again! They allow so many safer alternatives when clipping gear and there is never the question of “Is my rope long enough?” when rapelling. Price is the only drawback that I can see!
Would lugging around another rope and all the gear for that most likely one of the biggest issues for why people don’t? I’m new into this whole climbing scene so just curious
@ You don’t need any more gear (slings, draws, nuts, cams, ice screws, etc) than you would with a single rope…you don’t place double the amount of gear (i.e. full gear for each rope), you place the same amount of gear and clip each rope according to how the route wanders (to really simplify the concept you clip each rope “alternately”). Also, double ropes are thinner (thereby lighter) than singles. 2 double ropes together are somewhat heavier than a single, but if you’re doing a route that requires full length rappels, you’re gonna need something besides your main single to rap on anyway. Some people would use a small diameter tag line for this, but that means you’d do the climb while carrying the extra rope and getting no benefit from it during the ascent. With doubles, you get good protection on the way up and full length raps on the way down without carrying the dead weight of a “dedicated” rap line.
Great video! Regarding double ropes - Isn't rope stretch usually higher on double compared to single ropes? This reduces max. stress on placed gear in case of a fall.
Regarding slack: When you fall into dozens of meters of dynamic rope (especially half ropes) half a meter more or less of slack doesn’t really make a difference. Ropes are rated around ~10% of static stretch and ~30% of dynamic stretch. So if there are, for example 20m of rope the climber is going to drop at least 2m anyway. Belay from the anchor instead of from your body to avoid getting slammed into the wall.
Belay from the anchor lead climbing or seconding? I've honestly never heard or seen anyone do that lead climbing. Seconding, yes always guide mode it up, that way I can film video for the Channel whilst belaying 😂 In regards to slack i guess my point was more attentiveness when you can see the climber vs. When you can't see them. It definitely drops for alot of people when they've gone out of sight.
@@WideBoyz Belaying a lead climber from a fixed point. At least here in Austria that’s the way it’s taught and done for multi pitches. It can lead to a slightly harder catch but is much safer for the belayer. I’d only belay directly from my harness if there is a big ledge.
@@Mike-oz4cv As a general rule belaying direct from the anchor is poor practice for trad climbing. Direct belays are most often taught and used where there is fixed gear for belay stances and the belay can take a direct fall. Belaying from the harness does a few things that are important in trad belays, 1) it makes equalising the forces on the belay easier because the attachment to the anchors and the belay system all come together at the harness naturally and you don’t have to create a central point. For instance if you are using double ropes you can just clove hitch each rope to a separate anchor and get a good equalised system with all the benefits of dynamic rope as opposed to bringing it all together with a sling or static cord 2) your body then forms part of the belay system and absorbs a significant amount of the fall energy which would otherwise go directly to the anchor. This lowers the peak force on the anchors and reduces the chances of those must not fail anchors actually failing. You do have to remember that there is no fixed equipment at all on UK trad climbs they are not the same as many European climbs listed as “not equipped” or “without equipment” where you may well have fixed stances or rapell points.
On. Multi pithch, always (unless you have no option) set up your belay so that all the foces are directly to the anchor and not to your body. If your partner is incapacitated, you will need to be able to escape the belay easily.
Would you have any thoughts on rope soloing with a double rope please Pete? Device/setup etc. Probably be a lot going on, simpler and safer single rope 🤔
So ima 220lb former body builder in my early 40s. I can climb 5.9 comfortably indoors and 5.7 outdoors. My son is a 5.12 lead so think its safe for me to trad top rope follow or aid after him on easy multipitch?
How often do you use doubles in Yosemite? I use singles with slings, then carry a lighter tag line for the rappels. Any issues with drag or weight when comparing the two?
I have occasionally used in yosemite when the terrain has needed it. For example on routes like Secret Passage. The majority of the time in yosemite the ground you are covering doesn't need double ropes as the gear placing is simple and follows the feature you're climbing, And a single and tag is great. Even a long single works in yosemite because there are so many ab stations on the popular things. Like mentioned in the video doubles really come into use when gear is dotted around the climbing and rather than just extending everything, doubles is much more practical and safer. You basically have to weigh up what is sensible in terms of doubles and single 🙂
@@WideBoyz Thanks for the explanation. There are several routes I'm thinking of where you have to choose between fighting the drag monster or slings so long the protection seems almost pointless. I'm just not sure the weight of 30 m of an extra rope is heavier than the drag it relieves. Depends on the climb as you say. I'll definitely add this trick to my tool kit.
@@johnmcho i use these, which are obviously a lot thinner than your standard single. Maybe it feels heavier carrying two to the crag, but when I'm actually climbing i barely notice they difference with weight of rope to be honest. sterlingrope.com/store/climb/ropes/dynamic/duetto-8-4-mm-xeros
@@WideBoyz quick question what’s your preferred length of double rope 70m? I have used 50m in alpine situations but never really in more day to day trad routes. Also sorry to tack on to this vid so late.
If there is no prior infomation about the route, you would make a calculated judgement from the ground at how hard it will be and then take the rack accordingly. A standard rack for me is double of every cam size up to gold. Single blue and grey. Then nuts from purple to big grey. 10 - 15 draws.
@@WideBoyz i'm just about to get started in this sport (at 52) and you are the only bloke who gives feedback to what might seem a stupid questions. Thanks Pal
For practice, find a single pitch trad climb that is completely visible from the ground, spend some time examining the route and guess which pieces you think you will use and where you place them. After completing the climb compare what you actually used to what you planned to use, this will help you get better about selecting which gear to take up a climb.
Good points! How about equalizing multiple pieces using sliding X? Haven't seen that very often, but I think it should make the cluster of sketchy-ish pro safer than just individual pieces. Or is it just not worth the extra work?
The only drawback to double ropes is that it is more work. But in most cases it is safer and the ropes run much better. I am surprised that so few people use double ropes, outside of ice climbing.
I don't get how people think it's more work. I mean you tie an extra knot and coil an extra rope? The benefits just hugely outweigh the drawbacks on multipitch routes.
rappelling directly off the tree at 6:44? even just pulling the rope afterwards can seriously damage the bark and kill the tree over time. If I have to bail I'd rather sacrifice a sling and a biner than damaging a tree that other people want to use as anchor too.
Another common mistake is not placing a Jesus piece on a multipitch. Somehow I can forget it when I am leading, but I would always remind my leader to place one if I am seconding, so selfish of me 😂
Hey Pete, great tips. But my question is I see you have another edition of your Crack Climbing book what's the difference form the first (red) compared to the new orange one? Cheers
They both came out at the same time and have all the same infomation. If you live in Canada or States buy red writing. If you live anywhere else in the world buy orange writing. Same book, two different publishers to cover different markets 😀
The last part where you talk about placing gear, do you mean that it would be advised to know the route beforehand? If I am first time on the route, how do I know the top part might be really sketchy to realise to place extra gear before heading to it, if it looks better than it really is? I can see there why someone might place 3 pieces of gear on that kind of a route, thinking it's medium or bad thus placing 3, but thinking he is soon going to get more gear in, but when he realises he can't, it is too late to go back and add.
Get used to looking at the climb from the ground (or belay ledge) before you set off, if climb goes out of sight from the ground then rest and take a good look when the hidden part comes into view as you climb.
The only Swedish climber I've properly climbed with is Erik Grandelius. He's been reasonably similar to me in the gear placing on multipitches we've done. I.e. Running it out for quick moving on easier ground, but seems to place enough when the climbing is more diffcult to him. The only other Swedes i know are Petter and Stefan from Bohuslan, and they both seem like they like their gear placing even though they've done spicy routes. That's my only experiences with Swedes 😅
Like that; don't need all that slack in belayers rope. Never in my life seen climber climb so fast they needed slack, but have taken 20 foot falls with solid pro at my knees because of it. Manual!!#
How does leaving loads of slack translate to a dynamic catch? That's just a longer fall, a dynamic catch is given by the belayer "springing"/jumping towards the first pro. All extra slack will do is buy extra time for applying said technique.
When there is very little rope in the system (low down), it can make sense to get the climber time to position his feet before impact. In multipitch, quite often you cannot jump for soft catch.
90% of routes in the rockies might have a crack feature but by the time you put a cam in there you've also used up 90% of the crack on the route and placed 90% of the gear that will actually hold a fall on the route.
There probably will be the odd crack schools here and there. But we want to move more towards Crack Fest rather than Crack School series. It's just more fun for us 😀
First piece of gear should be a cam (or a super bomber multi-directional wedge, maybe opposing wedges), to prevent zippering. It hurts to burn a cam so early on, but all the others depend on it.
You've really got to do away with thesw clickbait titles. They really lower your credibility and alot of people who have developed a strong aversion to clickbait (myself included) won't watch them
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Just wanna say, getting right into the content of the video is such a breath of fresh air.
Most youtubers would have had a 7 minute intro explaining who they are, why they're making the video, outlining their credentials, begging people to crush the subscribe button and molest the bell etc.
Came to the comments to say excatly this!
Yup. I was taken aback. Wasn't used to it. "Slow down here. I just settled"
This is great timing, I was talking about some similar topics yesterday at a crag. Specifically placing more than one piece before a crux if gear failure there would be a certain groundfall, we saw so many people runout to the crux, plug one small cam when they could easily put in a 2nd, and then take or fall on it like they're whipping on bolts. Sure, I've never had a piece pull that I fell on, but if it's quick and easy to give yourself some life insurance then why not?
Excellent discussion. At 70+ I'm pretty much a retired (trad) climber. I started my climbing in Yosemite in the early 70s, so I saw and participated in the introduction of nuts, sticky rubber and eventually camming devices. Indeed, it is cams that lead to mistake number one. Just too easy. Sometimes you see videos of pitches where the climber isn't carrying a single nut and the crack has all these superb hex and stopper opportunities.
Wow you must have seen quite a lot of things! I can’t wait to get into trad, I am now 25 with 16 years climbing on my back but I still feel so fresh and unknowing in climbing sometimes… do you have like a one sentence advice to give?
@@lovis_hertel What really helped me learn to place good gear was aiding easy finger cracks. You quickly learn that if a placement doesn’t hold body weight, it sure as hell isn’t going to hold a lead fall! Read a little about basic aid climbing, set up a toprope and practice placing and standing on gear while protected by the top rope. It was an eye-opener to me to see that what I would have trusted was a good placement while free climbing actually popped right out when I weighted it while aiding. My placements got better real fast!
Great video, thanks for the great tips, and all the rest mentioned below in the comments. As a trad climber of 4 decades I have seen most all these errors done more than once. A couple times to calamitous results. I haven't read through the whole list of comments, so maybe this has already been mentioned, but at 6:39 you sling a tree with double ropes, meaning you are going to have to pull a whole rope's length around the bark of the tree to retrieve your ropes. Now, if the tree were overhanging the route it would be bad enough for the tree, but here it's even worse with the friction caused by the ropes running over the cliff edge, meaning one must pull even harder to retrieve the ropes. This is horrible for the tree bark and may even kill the tree if more than one party uses this technique. Please sacrifice a long enough sling and a carabiner and hang your anchor point over the edge or as close to it as you can, and save the tree for another party, if not for the life of the tree itself and all the creatures that depend o n it. Thank you. PS. I love double rope climbing especially as my favorite climbs are long trad multipitch.
So concise, to the point, without chit-chat. Love it!
Sometimes I tend to be a bit too conservative placing gear because I don't want to place pieces in one location that I might need higher up. Recently I've decided to try placing gear more liberally near the start of the route (and also above ledges), where the consequences of falling are greater, and allowing myself to be a bit more conservative higher up the route, where the consequences of falling are less severe (as long as the quality of the placements are good), having a tendency to save more useful pieces of gear in case I need them for the anchor. So basically varying how much gear I place as I progress up the route depending on the consequences of falling at each potential placement
Excellent thoughts. To often climbers don't recognize that a ledge is the equivalent of hitting the deck. I believe a route called Nutcracker in Yosemite is responsible for a fair number of bad injuries because the crux is just above a ledge though at least a pitch off the ground. With a false sense of security climbers end up falling directly onto the ledge. Having failed to place their first piece of gear after the belay.
I think I have the same tendency now of being stingy with my placements and running stuff out lower. Something I will be correcting after reading this.
Really good info, Pete, and thanks for reexplaining the reasoning for double rope belay. It wasn’t much of a thing in the US in the 80s and 90s, but I was aware of this technique being used in Europe. We tended to use single or double runners to more align the rope to reduce rope drag. Saved double ropes for ice/mixed climbing. Cheers.
I'm an American and I have to agree with you totally on using double ropes. At first it seemed like it was just more faffing but the abseiling/rappelling difference is *huge*, and using them to reduce fall distance has kept me off a serious groundfall at least twice that I can recall.
Whats the logic of reducing falling distance? Directional pull on gear?
@@leoingson Let's say there's a piece of gear at 10 ft, and a piece of gear at 16ft. If you clip the second piece from below, your belayer has to feed out rope, and if you fall clipping, this extra slack will cause you to groundfall. But with doubles your belayer doesn't have to feed out any slack on the rope you've clipped, so if you fall while clipping the unclipped rope, your belayer can still keep you off the ground with the clipped rope.
Similar situations can occur if you fall while below the second piece, and the second piece comes out.
@@LoveAndClimbing Thanks David, so obvious :-)
Could you make a tutorial on how to use double ropes?
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the fact that you went right into the list resulted in me subscribing
I just love how the video goes straight into the information.
@ "Too much sport slack": it´s a multi-faceted issue. 1. Indeed, big falls generate more impact force on a piece of gear, which then might rip out, so better have less slack in the system. 2. My solution: to lessen the impact force, best to move with and pay out more rope at the moment of impact to lessen the risk of it being ripped out. 3. Paying out more rope may mean the falling climber may hit terrain lower down the route, but at least the gear has a higher chance to stay where it is (!!) 4. Belaying above ground on a multipitch route: you can still create space to move with an impacted rope by creating more distance between yourself and the centre point of your belay beforehand, f.e. by using a longer belay sling. 5. And, of course, falls closer to the ground also generate more impact force because there´s less rope to soften it - but you can´t really pay out that much rope to prevent a grounder.
I like playing rack roulette, I take whatever I think I need and end up running most things out... amazing video as always :)
I have never done trad climbing and don't think I will even attempt it in this life, but everything you are saying makes total sense. Thank you for this very informative video.
Fantastic video for any aspiring trad punter, peak district climbers usually learn these lessons really fast lol
nice one Pete, you're right about jamming, after years of neglecting it I've started using it and find myself cruising routes I would have just got pumped and scared on only six months ago.
Pete you’re madman superstar and we on planet earth appreciate all you do
Switching to a fixed point belay on multi pitch eliminates being yanked into the wall and allows more freedom and options from your belay. Also reduces load on the anchor
Can you use a fixed point belay with any sort of brake-assist or backup in case your belayer gets hit by rockfall or something else catastrophic?
@@Govanification you can use an Edelrid mega jul like an atc for the fix point belay. If you don't have it you can alway do some backup slip knot on the brake side of the rope before start climbing.
@@maximecastilloux9049 Hmm I have the gigajul, I'll have to try out a fixed point belay with it in brake assist mode. My gut feeling is it may be a bit of a faffe having to hook the loop with your thumb to feed slack.
Interesting idea with the slip knots, although that also sounds like a faffe as the belayer would have to tie them every 10ft or so to be effective, and then untie them constantly while lead belaying. I've never heard of that!
@@Govanification you can tied them before starting and it's very easy to untie, I do this in lead rope solo to backup my system and untie them while I lead.
(I've never see this in a different situation)
In guide Mode the climbing rope automatically Blocks the rope in a fall, if you're climbing on Single rope just use a gri gri, otherwise just use the mega Jul or mamut smart alpine as they work for double rope in belaying the leader and the second with the added brake assitance.
Great instructional vid on trad gear, long overdue on RUclips! Thanks Wide Boyz!
Great advice. I learned the value of jamming on a trad route that i had only toproped before and never used the jams. Of course, when it came time to lead it I was more scared so i looked for any additional security and I found that in a bomber fist jam. Such a wonderful feeling.
All good tips. Well done.
Three more. 1. keep the rope "quiet" when passing. When going past a tight rope can pull the piece outwards dislodging it and can fall out or not be "set". 2. Use runners. This allows the rope to move out without dislodging the piece. Also decreases rope drag. If you put two pieces together put a full runner on the second piece. The first one catches the fall the other is less likely to pull if the first one is dislodged. 3. practice looking at the possible placements, select the piece and place it. If it doesn't fit and you have to re-rack it, it is a fail. Too many times people don't develop the skill to place protection the first time, then when you get pumped you just throw something in and hope for the best. Get your nose in there and really look at the placement. BONUS: lay backs are the technique of no technique. This leads to running it out and not being able to take a hand off to place gear and hoping that you will make it so rest. Or just putting in a blind cam and hoping for the best. Better to us a jam, keep over your feet, and if you can't get a good placement, back off, before it gets dire.
Great knowledge!
There's something to be said about placing upward pull anchors on an anchor. If one gets ripped up catching a fall, it can cause the anchoring system to be displaced.
I remember doing Moby Dick center in Yosemite back in the 80s. Facing 70' of off-width that sucked my arm in to the shoulder and that narrowed at the back to just fit a #4 friend at arms reach. Having placed my first of only2 #4s on my rack, at the base of the off-width, I had to place and move the other cam upward with every squirming move my body made upward. 65' of nudging the cam upwards hoping that the lobes wouldn't reach a wide spot. Definitely felt sandbagged on that one. "Na Dave, the crux is down low, you'll cruise the upper section".
Nice video. Hard work to condense all that info in to such a short piece and you made some great points. I learned some things. You've got a new subscriber.
Your absolutely right about double, twin twin ropes. The route dictates what system you use.
Twin ropes are not for beginners.
There's a lot of nuances to learn when using twins. Eg feeding out slack while bringing in slack at the same time
really enjoyed the flow of this video!
1. RUNNERS! Better to fall a little longer that going past your gear and it pulling out. Or the longer the runner the less the piece will move. And, of course, rope drag. 2. Be smooth when clipping the rope. If you jerk the rope up after setting the piece the belayer will put out more rope to anticipate you pulling the rope and this will be worse when you are out of sight. Nobody likes to short rope a leader but you can't have it both ways.
Thanks, Pete, great video.
Another important reason for using double rope for trad is the maximum shock load (sorry don't know the exact English term) it has. This means the extra elasticity it has will reduce the load on a piece, guaranteed under the maximum load of that piece. For instance, a double rope has a max shock of 5kN whilst your cams take 7kN. Thus reducing the risk of ripping a piece significantly.
7:14 Holy shit, ripping gear like that looks absolutely terrifying! Take heed peeps
I was climbing a 5.10a I had a crappy placement before I ran out of gear a perpel ball but I did not think it was going to hold. Got 5 feet up and I could not make the ruff I slipped and it held. After that I tuck off my gear sling and I finished it
Nut
Another great job. I would add a couple points. 2 bad pieces is never as good as one good piece so you might be better off going for the better placement. Also, if double ropes are avoidable, you can save a lot of effort by avoiding them(and avoid anchor paralysis by placing too much gear). Good work
I think this is the most serious I've ever seen Pete
I'm surprised you didn't cover zippering. People have been hurt putting in nuts in a crack (especially as their pro at the start) and then when they fall and the rope tightens the direction of pull is changed to an upward pull and the nuts pop out, from the bottom up, resulting in no protection and a grounder. Putting in a cam at the start is safer, IMHO. I agree with using two ropes. Once you use two ropes a few times you won't go back to singles, especially on trad climbs that meander around (the Sierra), or have long rappels (The Needles).
Yes this is an excellent point/tip
Thanks, useful info!
Great advice!
6:33 proper naughty rain!
Great channel!!
Double ropes…once you try using them, you will never want to use a single rope again! They allow so many safer alternatives when clipping gear and there is never the question of “Is my rope long enough?” when rapelling. Price is the only drawback that I can see!
Would lugging around another rope and all the gear for that most likely one of the biggest issues for why people don’t? I’m new into this whole climbing scene so just curious
@ You don’t need any more gear (slings, draws, nuts, cams, ice screws, etc) than you would with a single rope…you don’t place double the amount of gear (i.e. full gear for each rope), you place the same amount of gear and clip each rope according to how the route wanders (to really simplify the concept you clip each rope “alternately”). Also, double ropes are thinner (thereby lighter) than singles. 2 double ropes together are somewhat heavier than a single, but if you’re doing a route that requires full length rappels, you’re gonna need something besides your main single to rap on anyway. Some people would use a small diameter tag line for this, but that means you’d do the climb while carrying the extra rope and getting no benefit from it during the ascent. With doubles, you get good protection on the way up and full length raps on the way down without carrying the dead weight of a “dedicated” rap line.
what was the route in sweden?? dreadline?
Yes 👍
good knowledge 🙂
@@WideBoyz wow great send 🤟
Great video! Regarding double ropes - Isn't rope stretch usually higher on double compared to single ropes? This reduces max. stress on placed gear in case of a fall.
Regarding slack: When you fall into dozens of meters of dynamic rope (especially half ropes) half a meter more or less of slack doesn’t really make a difference. Ropes are rated around ~10% of static stretch and ~30% of dynamic stretch. So if there are, for example 20m of rope the climber is going to drop at least 2m anyway.
Belay from the anchor instead of from your body to avoid getting slammed into the wall.
Belay from the anchor lead climbing or seconding? I've honestly never heard or seen anyone do that lead climbing. Seconding, yes always guide mode it up, that way I can film video for the Channel whilst belaying 😂
In regards to slack i guess my point was more attentiveness when you can see the climber vs. When you can't see them. It definitely drops for alot of people when they've gone out of sight.
@@WideBoyz Belaying a lead climber from a fixed point. At least here in Austria that’s the way it’s taught and done for multi pitches. It can lead to a slightly harder catch but is much safer for the belayer. I’d only belay directly from my harness if there is a big ledge.
Never done that myself, I need to read into it 👍 cheers
@@WideBoyz I think it's taught in Austria, Germany and Switzerland like that. Maybe France as well, not sure.
@@Mike-oz4cv As a general rule belaying direct from the anchor is poor practice for trad climbing. Direct belays are most often taught and used where there is fixed gear for belay stances and the belay can take a direct fall. Belaying from the harness does a few things that are important in trad belays,
1) it makes equalising the forces on the belay easier because the attachment to the anchors and the belay system all come together at the harness naturally and you don’t have to create a central point. For instance if you are using double ropes you can just clove hitch each rope to a separate anchor and get a good equalised system with all the benefits of dynamic rope as opposed to bringing it all together with a sling or static cord
2) your body then forms part of the belay system and absorbs a significant amount of the fall energy which would otherwise go directly to the anchor. This lowers the peak force on the anchors and reduces the chances of those must not fail anchors actually failing.
You do have to remember that there is no fixed equipment at all on UK trad climbs they are not the same as many European climbs listed as “not equipped” or “without equipment” where you may well have fixed stances or rapell points.
i gave up trad after nearly decking whilst trad climbing over a decade ago! Scary af trad is! :o
2:50
If you're getting pulled, slammed or pinned against the wall, you have set up your belay system wrong.
On. Multi pithch, always (unless you have no option) set up your belay so that all the foces are directly to the anchor and not to your body. If your partner is incapacitated, you will need to be able to escape the belay easily.
Belaying double ropes like you were a sport climber is scary too!
Aside from the marketing of skill share the quality of your video has vastly improved ! Great content
Thanks 👍
Would you have any thoughts on rope soloing with a double rope please Pete? Device/setup etc.
Probably be a lot going on, simpler and safer single rope 🤔
I don't see the playlist you're referencing at the end of the video
So ima 220lb former body builder in my early 40s. I can climb 5.9 comfortably indoors and 5.7 outdoors. My son is a 5.12 lead so think its safe for me to trad top rope follow or aid after him on easy multipitch?
How often do you use doubles in Yosemite? I use singles with slings, then carry a lighter tag line for the rappels. Any issues with drag or weight when comparing the two?
I have occasionally used in yosemite when the terrain has needed it. For example on routes like Secret Passage. The majority of the time in yosemite the ground you are covering doesn't need double ropes as the gear placing is simple and follows the feature you're climbing, And a single and tag is great. Even a long single works in yosemite because there are so many ab stations on the popular things. Like mentioned in the video doubles really come into use when gear is dotted around the climbing and rather than just extending everything, doubles is much more practical and safer.
You basically have to weigh up what is sensible in terms of doubles and single 🙂
@@WideBoyz Thanks for the explanation. There are several routes I'm thinking of where you have to choose between fighting the drag monster or slings so long the protection seems almost pointless. I'm just not sure the weight of 30 m of an extra rope is heavier than the drag it relieves. Depends on the climb as you say. I'll definitely add this trick to my tool kit.
@@johnmcho i use these, which are obviously a lot thinner than your standard single. Maybe it feels heavier carrying two to the crag, but when I'm actually climbing i barely notice they difference with weight of rope to be honest.
sterlingrope.com/store/climb/ropes/dynamic/duetto-8-4-mm-xeros
Double gets important in areas of rockfall.
@@WideBoyz quick question what’s your preferred length of double rope 70m? I have used 50m in alpine situations but never really in more day to day trad routes.
Also sorry to tack on to this vid so late.
What's the blue windproof/waterproof looking jacket Mari is wearing at the start of the video?
I'd love to find one
Fascinating sport. Question: how do you determine the amount of nuts, cams etc to take up a mountain.
If there is no prior infomation about the route, you would make a calculated judgement from the ground at how hard it will be and then take the rack accordingly. A standard rack for me is double of every cam size up to gold. Single blue and grey. Then nuts from purple to big grey. 10 - 15 draws.
@@WideBoyz i'm just about to get started in this sport (at 52) and you are the only bloke who gives feedback to what might seem a stupid questions. Thanks Pal
@@drevil2783 no problem 👍
For practice, find a single pitch trad climb that is completely visible from the ground, spend some time examining the route and guess which pieces you think you will use and where you place them. After completing the climb compare what you actually used to what you planned to use, this will help you get better about selecting which gear to take up a climb.
@@colinandrew8573 makes sense and great advice
No.5 this is the way
Not placing gear on easy terrain is a great way to hit the ground.
Place gear to protect the belayer from being pulled up
at 3:33, what is that clip from? I feel like I've seen it and it blew my mind... though I forget.
nvm, I thought it was Brent Perkins on 'Proper Soul'...
What's seen flying off the wall at 6:11?
Good points!
How about equalizing multiple pieces using sliding X? Haven't seen that very often, but I think it should make the cluster of sketchy-ish pro safer than just individual pieces. Or is it just not worth the extra work?
yeh i've never done it, but it defo could have potential for sure. sliding X is really simple to do with 1 hand as well
Lots of extension if one piece fails with the sliding x! Just something to think about.
Another tendency is to naively trust the guidebook grade. VS's can be HVS and HVS's can be up to 2 grades higher.
This is the first time I have ever heard of using double rope
What kind of double roup do you use?(Brand, diameter)
On many trad runout routes you need to take rope in.
The only drawback to double ropes is that it is more work. But in most cases it is safer and the ropes run much better. I am surprised that so few people use double ropes, outside of ice climbing.
I don't get how people think it's more work. I mean you tie an extra knot and coil an extra rope? The benefits just hugely outweigh the drawbacks on multipitch routes.
@@Kakaka32 Well it isn't much more, but people seem to think so. I suppose for long walk ins, the weight plays a role.
What camera do you use for youtube videos? Asking for advice from a small time guy looking.
Nothing fancy.
Canon G7X mark ii
It's just a compact point and shoot (films in 1080p)
For videos like this I record on an external mic, (zoom h1n)
rappelling directly off the tree at 6:44? even just pulling the rope afterwards can seriously damage the bark and kill the tree over time. If I have to bail I'd rather sacrifice a sling and a biner than damaging a tree that other people want to use as anchor too.
Which was the route in Sweden?
Dreadline
3:10 This made me laugh so hard, so unexpected and such a short clip
Another common mistake is not placing a Jesus piece on a multipitch. Somehow I can forget it when I am leading, but I would always remind my leader to place one if I am seconding, so selfish of me 😂
Hey Pete, great tips. But my question is I see you have another edition of your Crack Climbing book what's the difference form the first (red) compared to the new orange one? Cheers
They both came out at the same time and have all the same infomation.
If you live in Canada or States buy red writing.
If you live anywhere else in the world buy orange writing.
Same book, two different publishers to cover different markets 😀
Wide Boyz thanks brother. I might still buy the orange. I got a book and climbing problem. Keep up the good work
The last part where you talk about placing gear, do you mean that it would be advised to know the route beforehand? If I am first time on the route, how do I know the top part might be really sketchy to realise to place extra gear before heading to it, if it looks better than it really is? I can see there why someone might place 3 pieces of gear on that kind of a route, thinking it's medium or bad thus placing 3, but thinking he is soon going to get more gear in, but when he realises he can't, it is too late to go back and add.
Get more comfortable down climbing! It's never too late to go back and place more gear.
@@karsonleonard1716 Depends on what kind of moves it requires to get up :) some are nearly impossible to do in reverse.
Get used to looking at the climb from the ground (or belay ledge) before you set off, if climb goes out of sight from the ground then rest and take a good look when the hidden part comes into view as you climb.
Do you think swedish climbers place in general less pro?
The only Swedish climber I've properly climbed with is Erik Grandelius. He's been reasonably similar to me in the gear placing on multipitches we've done. I.e. Running it out for quick moving on easier ground, but seems to place enough when the climbing is more diffcult to him.
The only other Swedes i know are Petter and Stefan from Bohuslan, and they both seem like they like their gear placing even though they've done spicy routes. That's my only experiences with Swedes 😅
Like that; don't need all that slack in belayers rope. Never in my life seen climber climb so fast they needed slack, but have taken 20 foot falls with solid pro at my knees because of it. Manual!!#
How does leaving loads of slack translate to a dynamic catch? That's just a longer fall, a dynamic catch is given by the belayer "springing"/jumping towards the first pro. All extra slack will do is buy extra time for applying said technique.
All extra slack will just accelerate the falling climber more, indeed.
When there is very little rope in the system (low down), it can make sense to get the climber time to position his feet before impact. In multipitch, quite often you cannot jump for soft catch.
@@leoingson that makes a lot of sense for those cases, but it still won't yield a dynamic catch
99th comment = Awesome content again mr Pete !!
90% of routes in the rockies might have a crack feature but by the time you put a cam in there you've also used up 90% of the crack on the route and placed 90% of the gear that will actually hold a fall on the route.
First after the boyz 🔥
Edit:
That means I'm special and you all have to be nice to me!
the only mistake of trad climbing I see is not using bolts instead)))
Somebody please explain to me what I’m looking at at 8:56….
Century Crack. A horizontal offwidth
@@WideBoyz thanks! I’ll have to check this out.
will there be another crack fest / crack school ever?
please :)
Crack Fest will be back. There has been small discussions about it over here recently. We just have to find a suitable time
There probably will be the odd crack schools here and there. But we want to move more towards Crack Fest rather than Crack School series. It's just more fun for us 😀
First piece of gear should be a cam (or a super bomber multi-directional wedge, maybe opposing wedges), to prevent zippering. It hurts to burn a cam so early on, but all the others depend on it.
Yes that's also a great point, to have a cam as the first piece 👍
Number 0: trad climbing
every times i see double ropes at the Gunks i think to myself. fuck the monarchy this is America!
Lesson learned. On the other hand though if i f#$ked up i wont get hurt too bad. I'll fall onto and into a mountain of my own poo.
Good advice but video is unwatchable due to the pop zooms in and out constantly. I stopped after 2 mins.
Just stay at home, it's dangerous!
You've really got to do away with thesw clickbait titles. They really lower your credibility and alot of people who have developed a strong aversion to clickbait (myself included) won't watch them
I think the title of this represents the video pretty well. There are 5 mistakes, and they should try to be avoided 😀
@Wide Boyz And clickbait style titles also work so if you want more content in the future and the channel to grow, just live with it.