ALL CAPS COMMENT!!! As always you provide pragmatic and transparent thoughts on some (very) "religious" topics. Well done, sir. Well done, indeed. Look for me joining your Patreon once I clean up my existing commitments. Thanks for what you do here.
I owned a Catalina 380. The guy next to me owned an IP 38. I always invited him to go with me on my day sails. He got a serious case of boat envy for the size of my cockpit and bimini. His was tiny while I routinely had 8 guests comfortably enjoying a sail. I came to the boatyard one say and found his bimini in the dumpster. He scrapped the whole thing and had a new bigger one designed. Still wasn't as big as mine. I only used my boat for daysailing, but it was very comfortable.
Battleship. All the way! I spent $8000 in flights, haul-outs and failed surveys. Every Hunter, Catalina and Freedom had serious issues at survey. Deck damage, hull damage, deck damage, cracked keel, deck damage. As I was about to give up, my broker recommended an Island Packet….. which I now own! Surveyors exact words “she’s built like a battleship”! I care not about knots, I have comfort at sea and anchor with all the space I need!
Aren't you brilliant. Maybe get a real surveyor to look at that "Piglet's" chain plates-... Let us know how that battleship is going to sail without rigging. Many owners simply drill through the hull sides and add new ones on the exterior. Classy.
@@genesmith4019 I find it interesting that you could have any idea of the quality of surveyor that I hired. Your childish comment does little to change my opinion.
@@paulhicks1168 Of course it doesn't. Guys like you know it all. Don't think about those chain plates and what's involved in inspecting them correctly. You've got a survey Lol.
@@genesmith4019 Another petulant assumption, this time about me. So, I do have a survey which states”Due to fiberglassing of the chainplates to the hull, visual examination by remote fiber scope was limited to the upper portion of the internal chain plate. Radiographic examination of the fiberglassed potion showed no material loss due to Intergranular Corrosion and no structural concerns due to Stress Corrosion Cracking.” So, yet another childish comment does not change my opinion. Perhaps Tik-Tok would serve your teenage emotion state better.
The reality check you talk about here is spot on! What are you really going to do? I’ve contemplated blue water, and maybe someday I’ll do it, but in reality we will do long weekends with day sails, and a few coastal trips of 3-5 days. Reality check says condo. In the newer 30-35’ range the comparison flips from the IP/Catalina, to Beneteau/Catalina and now it’s light+faster apartment vs heavier + bigger condo. I’m settling on the condo. Thanks for a well spoken reality check: When/if I blue water, it’ll be on someone else’s boat.
Yeah those island packets are great boats but not swift . It’s that blunt Bow they have and that full keel . One thing you have to watch out for are the chain plates on older ones , they are susceptible to crevice corrosion as on all boats but are very hard to change and require cutting the interior fibreglass bulkheads to reach the bolts .
Best video yet. Please share more “opinions”, they’re right on the mark. You left the door open there at the end. So, what are your dream cruising boat?
Love the video. However, I love the Caribbean island hoping but I also want to Europe and sail all the way to the black sea. Then what? which blue water-capable boat can I get without going over 70k? Beneteau Oceanis?
Nice video. But I would like to discuss with you some more. I would like you fly here to Thailand and sail with me on my old Cal. We can do some racing and some cruising.
I’ve been a fulltime live aboard on a Catalina 42Mk2 for going on 4 years. Btw-the C42 is KEEL STEPPED. Lead Keel too. It’s a solid, simple vessel that’s easy to work on, affordable to own & makes an excellent home. She also sails very well & is an “A” rated offshore boat. I also have 2 teenage daughters & can personally attest that having 2 heads is essential in my case. I work on boats all day & both are very nice, well built boats.
May I pester you with a question: How's the headroom. As a guy who is considering a liveaboard lifestyle, I think my list of boats to consider could be dramatically reduced by throwing out all those that don't have at least 6'7" of headroom in the cabin. I'm a 6'6" guy and while I understand one spends more time sitting or lying down below, but it's still important to me to be able to stand up to cook, or to be able to run from one end of the boat to the other without having to be hunched over. The C42Mk2 seems very appealing to me, but I haven't had a chance to step on one yet. How's the headroom in her, any chance it's at least 6'7" in the majority of common areas?
@@zackhowell9047 Does "plenty" mean another 4" of clearance throughout most of the boat? I'm curious what year. I saw somewhere, not sure if accurate, that at some point in time the mfg made a change and the headroom dropped a few inches. Thanks for the input, folks!
@@tedvz Not sure exactly how muchroom is above my head but I would guess maybe 6 or 7 inches in the saloon and maybe a little less in the foreward stateroom. 3 cabin with foreward pullman.
Loved this episode. I am reeling with choices! I am finding that choosing the right boat is never ending, meaning that just as you make your mind up, another choice comes along!!
Yes, every boat - every one of them, is a compromise in some way or another price, size (to big, too small), features, or lack there of a "ready to go boat" or a fixer upper, etc...
I got stuck somewhere in between and purchased a 1987 Moody 422 , relatively fast and relatively safe with good accomodations. Don't see these boats offered much in NA , I am very happy with it. Your comparison is definitely a good guide for the novice boat shopper , the more experienced sailor knows the compromises. Any sailboat choice is always a compromise.
From an old cruising sailor: The ocean hasn't changed. Once you are out there, you are at the mercy of whatever the wind and ocean throw at you. Old sailboats have long keels; keel stepped masts; shrouds that fasten to the edge of the hulo, leaving decks - your working areas - free of shrouds that the racers demand; 7 degree sheeting angles. If I have to learn to play a harp before I can carry a box of beer bottle down my deck, I want no part of that boat. If you want a party boat - 30 feet long that sleeps 6 - where do you store their clothes? ... food to feed them all? .... can they all stand up in the cabin at the same time? .... A good sailboat has to be a very elegant trade-off between boat requirements for being a safe and efficient sailer under all conditions, and adequate storage requirements for food, crew, and boat equipment. I must have a keel stepped mast, and be a long keel vessel. I want no spade rudders or propellers hanging out there waiting to catch a lobster trap warp, or fish net. Believe me, it will happen, and according to MURPHY' Law at the worst time possible. Boat design fashions change - the sea doesn't change
I am very glad you wrote this peirce, you have confirmed to me that I will buy a full keel heavy cruiser. Choi Lee, Hans Christian. ?? Help me out. Thanks for your time, Dean.
Very informative. You are right that the the Catalina will get into the harbor 1 hour earlier so you might think it will get a better anchorage, but it needs 2 feet more water than the Island Packet.
C42 with wing keel draws 4’ 10”. I’m not sure of the ratio, but I think the shallow draft (wing keel) outsold the performance keel by a large margin. Granted, it’s still a spade rudder and every crab pot scares the bejeezus out of you (or it should😎).
For the type of sailing I’m looking to do (and it seems to be very similar to your goals) I have to admit that the spade rudder on the Cat concerns me. The skeg hung rudder on the IP seems to be more ready to weather the inevitable grounding that the Gulf Coast/Caribbean is subject to.
I agree. That is a failing point in the design. Lady K I think is best of both. Modified fin and a skeg. I'll try to find a model that does that design to talk about too.
I met a floatilla of cruisers all with Island packets (One Cheoy Lee) and at the bar one night they all agreed that they wish they had spent less on the boat and had more money to travel. You also pay a ton for the Island Packet and resale is not that easy. There are other choices aside from catalina. Deals are to be had out there outside the battle ship or the clorox bottle.
I have bounced back and forth on this very issue and what tends to sway me away from the 'condo' is the Capsize Ratios; they're almost always above 2.0 for those types of boats, especially under 40'. Does capsize ratio matter much in the Caribbean? If my boat capsizes, I want there to be a very high likelihood that it will re-right...otherwise I think our family would likely drown. Is it worth taking the chance?
Apples and oranges. I owned a Catalina 34 for 5 years before I went to the dark side with a trawler. Lots of miles in the ICW so decided to get out of the cockpit and up on a fly bridge. Island Packets are a niche boat for sailors that dream of going offshore, blue water., and maybe don’t. These are the same people who'd would buy a Range Rover for his one day a year he’s going to drive off paved roads, vs getting a 4WD Subaru.
I don't own a 42, but I checked a couple of sites and each identified the Catalina 42 as deck stepped. I wonder if different models of the 42, or different years, stepped the mast differently.
Great Choice. We own a Catalina 42 MK1, 3 cabin pullman. A pretty special 42Mk1. It was Gerry Douglas's and his family's personal boat until about 4 years ago when he offered to let us buy it. He truly did keep her spotless. I'd always liked the lines of the 42, and this one is checked with a lot special items. In boom Schaeffer furling, Diesel heat, On-demand propane fired hot water, Custom Tables, Oversize Windlass, Watertight bulkhead, Gori Prop, Flir, Etc., Etc., Etc. We have sailed her quite a bit and spend a lot of time on Catalina Island. She's fast, extremely comfortable, and we are prepping her for the Baja Haha next year. She placed in the Newport to Ensenada a few times, and has been in Sail magazine, etc. While I like the Island Packet, The Catalina is a lot more maneuverable in tight quarters and easier to board. You are totally correct. We are not planning on rounding the Horn. But for our usage (Pacific coast and Mexico) she's perfect. I'm not sure about the 42 Mk2, but our mast is Keel Stepped. Love your video's. Keep them coming!!
We own an Island Packet 485. It’s a center cockpit, take you anywhere tank! Lots of interior space - 3 cabins and 2 heads. The boat comes alive at wind speeds other boats are reefing or heading home. Check it out or any of the IPs.
Great video! We own a 2005 Island Packet and love it. Your analysis was fair and accurate. Yes the other boats would get to the anchorages a little faster and have first choice for the select spots. However, one point you may have over looked. Our Island Packet sailboat has a shoal draft of 4' 4". So yes the Catalina will get there a few minutes earlier but when we get there we can sneak around most sailboats and get closer to shore for the best and most protected anchorages. 😉
Now if you want a boat FAR better than either for IP used price. Or Catalena, Look at the Kelly Peterson 46. Very well built, very fast, very seaworthy. I have crossed oceans on my 44. I say 46 because they are a few years newer and are even faster with more waterline. In my 44 I made 200 mile days. It is cutter rigged, it has the tankage that IP doesn’t (a weak point for IP.). I still see a lot of them down island with jerry jugs all over the decks. For comfort at sea and at anchor/dock, you can’t beat a center cocpit. She is not an all out racer but will sail rings around an IP and out sail the Catalena in all but super hard on the wind. Or super light. And in heavy seas would do better even hard on the wind the KP has 4’ more waterline than the Catalena and 7 feet more than the IP. Fuel on IP is a pitiful 56 gal and 38 on the Catalena! KP is 156 fuel and 200 water. As a “cruiser” should be. Under body is an extended fin with large meaty skeg. Another is the Halberg Rassy 382 or 43. Same price range. Of course on any of these boats you need a good survey. And avoid teak decks if they are screwed down.
It's too bad the Catalina 42 MK2 wasn't built with twin Helms I think that would be my ideal boat. I know they make a 40 but that boat just for some reason is it in all the boxes what's your thought on the Catalina 40 twin Helms?
Another great video, seems you can't keep the facts out even in an opinion piece. I have to say that I agree 100% with the importance of the liveaboard comfort factor, so I went for a condo built inside a battleship. I also don't particularly give a flying fig about upwind sail performance because I'm getting older and an 88hp yanmar takes care of upwind travel quite admirably at 7kts for 6lts an hour. I'll stand by for the barrage of naysayers bagging the motorsailer driver but the fact is I don't care, for me the travel is the goal and comfort is the primary requirement.
@@deerfootnz Don't get me wrong it will sail upwind I just don't want to tack every 5 minutes if I can do a trip in two or three long tacks I'll probably do it, as for engine troubles the anchors 2 @ 75lb will hold her while I change a fuel filter. Engine issues don't happen they are caused and if you have to anchor on a lee shore you didn't plan very well
The most boat I can fit on a small light trailer. Also, the boat should be dry inside while it's wet outside. A huge storm? Bring it on. Nothing should break.
When I think about sailing around South Florida and the Bahamas, I always get concerned with grounding. I know it will happen, I just don't know when, and I don't know how bad it will be. For that reason, and that reason alone, I want to avoid bolted on fin keels. IPs are designed for this kind of sailing. Shoal keel that is sometimes bolted, depending on the IP, but is always encapsulated. They almost seem designed to take an occasional hard grounding.
Ok I stumbled upon your channel by good fortune. So what about a choice for a guy that knows nothing about sailing BUT is looking for something that is affordable, go anywhere, and is easy to handle for 1? I forsee short sails to begin with, destinations like the keys, Caribbean, etc. However once education and experience is gained I Invision a trip across the Atlantic and bounce around through the Mediterranean
Just too big still for me. Had an IP35, lost in storm. What would you replace it with for two people living onboard in Bahamas....think draft and cost but with reasonable comfort. Will likely not get IP35 again...would like better PHRF. Must at least be seaworthy enough for Carib too.
Agree with your basic idea of 'what suits you best?". I love Island Packets. They look like what a sailboat should look like. But I'm on my second Catalina and I'm all in. For the money it checks the boxes. I'm not crossing oceans and instead I need the floating condo and comfort to suit my lifestyle. Catalinas are all about comfort in a coastal cruising context on a budget.
I see a lot of people crossing the Atlantic in production sailboats. Their goal is more than crossing from east to west or west to east. The end result is island hopping, the Caribbean, or locations hopping, the Med. I wonder what boat might be the best compromise boat, as close t bulletproof as possible and still a near condo on the water. People might just like to hear your opinion.
To each their own. For me I want ocean crossing in a tank and the wilder the seas the better. But that’s me I spent most of my adult life driving semi on ice roads and hilly back roads so scared crapless is excitement to me. Good luck tonight. See you next week🍻
Older IP boats were tanks todays IPs have made concessions to point higher include the comforts MOST sailors if they are honest about what they really do vs what the romanticize they will do. Even Hans Christian’s no longer build the full keel battle tank they built their reputation on. Looking at the NEW offerings at the Annapolis boat show and their designs all including in mast reefing and Solent Rigs and even code zeros on top down furlers. Todays boats are designed for todays market exactly what you expect in a cruiser for 98percent of the sailors. The era of cruisers being like Lin And Larry Purdy sailing the globe on a 27ft engineless self built wooden boat are a thing of the past. YET many people getting into sailing are still selecting boats based on what they read from these early adventurers. Well ya the oceans are the same (in fact may be worse then ever as storms season in the Caribbean starts earlier and last longer and more powerful storms every year. BUT it’s about what we Actually do not what romantic vision we have of what we planned to do someday.
Loving your boat comparisons. Not sure what you would compare an Islander Freeport 41 to, but would love to see your research. We found ours in 2019 and love it. We call this our floating condo. We’re a ketch cutter rig. We have four sails plus a spinnaker. We are planning to sail east, from Michigan, in 2023 and out to the Bahamas. We’ll follow your path. We may never come back! At 34,000 pounds, our girl “Dauntless” is a beast, with 200 gallons of fresh water and 200 gallons of diesel to feed our 75 hp Yanmar engine. What do you think? Should we do it?
Keel-stepped masts being somehow more secure is a strange assumption. The only failure mode of a mast which isn't catastrophic for the boat is a break above the deck level. The strength of the keel stepping itself is completely irrelevant (although it invites failures of it's own), even unstayed masts should be designed to break above the deck. Any boat which loses it's deck with it's mast is doomed. GGR boats lose their keel-stepped masts regularly, but at least they lose them above the deck.
I’ve been watching many of these shows. I cannot understand why if properly optioned, why would you not take the Hunter 41 across the Atlantic. I see many that use it for that purpose. Then people who say they wouldn’t. Thanks
So you're saying the Packet feels bigger on the inside. I'm sold. You never had a head go down? That's what 2 heads are for. That's what 5 gallon buckets are for. Otherwise come rain or shine you're you're hanging your butt over the side till you get to where you can repair it.
I love your insight and knowledge. One thing I think many people miss is how the boat was treated. I am currently in S. Carolina tied up next to two Cabo Ricos that look like death. My 36 Catalina (freshwater boat for 40 years) is going places. She fills all my needs 6 for cocktails, 4 for dinner, and 2 for sleeping. While repeating 8 knots on passages. Why have a battleship when Destroyers are an option.
Another comment: Any sailboat has to have have at least three anchors or more. You need a main anchor; then you need a spare main anchor, which chain and rode, if you ever lose the main anchor: it gets stuck on something and you can't retrieve it; a powerboat idiot wraps it around his propeller, and you have to cast off your anchor rode till he sorts out his problem, and can give you back your anchor and rode. You need a lunch hook. you need a stern anchor to stop your boat if the engine quits while docking, and finally you need a heavy storm anchor, with lots of chain and 300 feet of anchor rode, as your anchor of last resort.
My experience is going to be 50% small boat and 50% armchair wishing but my dream boat would be a modernized Prout Quest 33. I learned to sail on a Pearson 26 when I lived on it in Baltimore and loved sailing the Chesapeake while I was there. Ended up having to sell it when I got a job in San Francisco and couldn't take it with me. Since then I've been looking at other boats that would be equally happy going from the shallow areas of the Chesapeake down to island hopping the Caribbean. Crossing oceans really hasn't been on the list of things I'd want to do with this boat.
I just saw a comment on a Project Atticus episode about their ocean crossing that these kids actually do not like sailing, they only sail just to get to places and stay there (it was their first time ocean crossing from Bermuda to Azores and the woman is pregnant, sea sick most of the time). That made me think about what people want when buying sailboat. I am yet to experience salt water sailing but I thought to myself I would go for ocean crossing and just be out there in those large open spaces for from everything. But I see cruisers spend most of their time at anchor or in marinas living on the boat and having fun on land. I have seen some channels where passages were considered a necessary bad thing you have to do to get to another cool place. From what I see, sailing an IP for island hopping would be like driving a Land Rover from caravan park to caravan park. It doesn't make sense but you can do it if that is your quirk.
Ive seen people that have one around the world in Catalina 30s and hunters they're fine lol as long as you have a good radar you can track the weather a seventeen year-old woman what around the world in a j17
In this day and age there is no need to buy a full keel boat like an IP. These are unique to the US. I don't think you could even buy a new long keel boat in Europe. In my mind the best compromise is a long deep fin keel with skeg hung rudder. Performance and strength. I love these videos that suggest you only have two choices. Long keel or lightweight production boat. The reality is that the best boats are somewhere in the middle. These videos always seem to assume that somebody who chooses a boat to sail oceans only ever sails oceans and never stops. That's crazy. A good ocean boat will also be a great boat at anchor. Reality. If you liveaboard you fill every available space. Modern production boats are lightly constructed. If you load up a light production boat with all your worldy good, it will sail like a pig. Pretty similar to the IP. Lightweight production boats don't take weight well and we're never designed for this. If you sail a lightweight production boat overloaded in rough weather they are strained to hell. Expect breakages. Any solid hull in this day and age is a cheap hull. The benefits of a high quality cored hull in say Airex is way stiffer, lighter and insulated from cold/heat and noise. They cost more but give great advantage. My own hull is 1/4" glass on the inner face, 1" Airex core and 1/4" on the outer face. This construction is 37 times stiffer than a similar 1/2" thick solid laminate hull. If you don't believe me, Google it. You want weight in the keel not the hull. Water and fuel tank under the cabin sole put weight where you need it low down. This leaves space under bunks for stowage. You can talk about comfort at anchor but one thing many forget. If you boat rolls like a pig at every passing boat you are going to be very uncomfortable. Lots of Caribbean anchorages have traffic. Your modern lightweights production boat rolling around, may offer that huge cockpit that’s great for entertaining in a marina but there are are few marinas in the Caribbean. The Caribbean is all about life at anchor. Most modern boats have very little shelter in their cockpits. The Caribbean is breezy. Sitting in the cockpit in the Caribbean in the evening with friends getting blown around as the boat sails around its anchor isn't much fun. The lightweight production boat is not made for this kind of use. We see bent bow rollers (have you seen how flimsy some fo these are). Everything on a modern production boat is paired down to the minimum to keep costs down so the builder can make a profit. They are made to a minimum standard they can get away with not a standard they think will last. Lots of the French production boats are built with throw away mentality. Generators installed before the deck so you can never remove the generator! Engines with no access to carryout routine maintainance. Saildrives for the convenience of the builder that are far less durable than conventional drive. Swept back spreaders that don't allow the mainsail to go out for downwind sailing. I could go on. We spend 9 months of the year cruising the Caribbean with 3 months at home during hurricane season. We have crossed the Atlantic five times and will cross it again next year, twice. We sail at both ends o the spectrum on a boat that is excellent at anchor and excellent at sea. Its close winded and as fast as a similar sized production boat in liveaboard trim. We sit above our marks as the boat was designed to do this. Start looking at boats in the middle not at ends of the spectrum. Comfort comes in many shapes and forms
I disagree, I think the Catalina is very comparable. Catalina will sail circles around the Island Packet. They are of similar build quality, at least Catalina uses solid lead instead of that cheaper slurry. The Catalina will be much more comfortable in a rough sea as it won't pound and bob like the Island Packet. The Island Packet can't point nearly as well. I will say Island Packets do seem to be generally well kept, but many I have seen just don't go out much thus resulting in a less worn boat. If I were looking for a battleship I would be looking at Halberg Rassy, or the like. They would be in the same price range of the IP and actually sail well and be comfortable.
The IP is actually more comfortable at sea: According to Sailboat Data, the smaller IP38 has a comfort ratio of 30.60 and the Catalina 42 has a CR of 25.8 - the higher number means a better motion and more rested crew. If a same sized IP 42 was compared to the Cat 42, then the CF ratio would be 34.12 - a significantly more comfortable design. If the Capsize Screening Formula is examined, the Cat 42 is terrible, at 2.03 (under 2 is best for offshore sailing) while the CSF for an IP42 is a respectable 1.84 which translates into a safer boat.
@@Morrisfactor comfort ratio has been shown many times to mean nothing. Especially when comparing different types of boats. Ie fin vs long keel. Brewer even said he made it as a joke, but people keep using it as though it has any value in the real world.
@@paulwyand6204 Interesting comment about Brewer, when/where did he say that? I'm quoting Brewer's CR from another source: 'While sailing is always good for moral, a lack of physical well-being in a cruising boat usually obliterates any sense of physical and psychological well-being. Therefore, the comfort ratio, created by Ted Brewer, an expert boat designer, builder & author, created a formula to assess a boats “comfort” at sail. More so, a formula that assess how quickly a abruptly a boat’s hull reacts to waves in large seaways. DISPLACEMENT ÷ [0.65 x (0.7 LWL + 0.3 LOA) x BEAM1.33] I have used this formula, along with many others, as education tool for my clients to decide amongst multiple boats, and in my opinion, the formula is creditable. Below 20 = Lite Racing Boat and tender motion 20-30 = Coastal Cruiser with moderate stability 30-40 = Moderate Bluewater Cruiser 50-60 = Heavy Bluewater Cruiser Most formulas have small variances that can manipulate the results. And this formula is not any different. For vessels 45ft or higher, the results are skewed higher. And for vessels 25ft and lower, results skewed somewhat lower. In conclusion, this formula will assist the understanding of a predictable roll or tenderness of a ship. So if you have a green crew with wobbly sealegs, perhaps a little math will go a long way into your next boat decision." Paul - I have also sailed full keeled, moderate to heavy displacement boats as well as the lighter fin keeled boats and find the CR to be a pretty fair assessment of these designs in rough seas.
@@Morrisfactor I am pretty sure it was Robert Perry who was relating the info. We have been on the same various forms together for years. Also Jeff Halpern a well respected trained Navel Architect reviewed the island Packet as below. This very closely matches the experiences I have had as well. "I have always thought that Island Packets are way over priced and way over sold; very often (but not always) to people who are entering the sport. (I base that comment on conversations that I have had with past and present Island Packet owners at boat shows. I am always amazed how many say that an IP was their first boat.) Island Packets have never made any sense at all for the way most of us use our boats on the U.S.Atlantic coast. They are not good as light to moderate air sailers (the predominant summer condition on the mid U.S. Atlantic Coast) and they don''t seem to be great heavy weather boats either. The 380 really lacks a lot of the key components that I would look for in an offshore cruiser (seaberths for instance). For that matter, I have never been all that impressed with the build quality of the Island Packets(but some people are) because of such items as iron ballast in concrete (recently changed to lead in polyester resin which is slightly better), or the post mounted rudder masquerading as a keel hung rudder with a rather flimsey strap at it''s bottom to mention a couple deal buster kind of issues. I do think some of their details are quite nice for liveaboard types. To me, it comes down to your goals for buying a sailboat (and people buy sailboats for a lot of reasons most of which are equally valid with each other). If you are just buying a boat to live on and you really do not care how well the boat sails or how much time you will spend motoring, then the Island Packet might work for you. But if you are buying a sailboat because you really want to sail well and want to be able to voyage from place to place driven on the force of the wind, then there are much better sailing boats out there for the same dollars. IP are designed around the idea (directly or indirectly) that there is merit to craming a lot of room and weight into a short hull. Based on my 37 years of sailing experience there is no excuse and no real advantage to that approach to yacht design other than perhaps a concern with slip fees. Island Packets seem to offer a lot room in a short package but what real good is that? None that I know of. When dealing with wind and wave, a finer hull actually does better. Nothing succeeds like length(read both the Fastnet and Sidney Hobart disaster reports). Stubby is wet and feel greater impacts from each wave. As I have said many times, weight in and of itself does nothing good for a boat. It does not make it strong, or stable, or comfortable in a seaway. It does not give a boat the ability to survive a big storm or an unexpected visit to the beach. Heavier boats, that are not carefully modeled, (and in my opinion the IP''s are not all that well modeled) require more sail area to drive their greater drag through the water. In my experience, this means more physical strength is required to sail them and as a result, if you try to sail them well, they wear you out sooner. Then there is motion at sea. There are two factors that lead to uncomfortable motion, roll angle and roll speed. Navy studies suggest that both have equal impact on the comfort of people onboard boats. IP salesmen make a strong point about its slow roll rate but from observation, they seem to roll through much wider roll angles than other boats around them. I have sailed up behind them and really studied them on windier days (you rarely see them sailing in normal conditions) and they are making lots of leeway and seemed to be heeled more acutely than other cruising boats around them. Looking at rudder angles and at the owner''s faces, they seem to be fighting for control when a true offshore boat should not be. I know that there are a fair number of IP''s out there cruising and that there are IP owners who like their boat. (Most people do like their boats.) I also know that a lot of these boats are sold to people with big dreams, some who never really learn to sail the boats or become prematurely convinced that sailing is a lot more difficult than it really is. To these people (and I have met quite a few of them) their Island Packet was a graveyard of dreams. As I have said before, from my observations, in the long run, I think you would be better off buying a trawler if you are going to cruise the U.S. Mid-Atlantic coast, than an IP since you will probably spend less time motoring." Respectfully Jeff Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay Ear Eyelash Smile"
Hey!..hello...like your videos. Tks a lot. I have a question. What do you think about Nauticat 385, year 2005-7 ? Im looking for a pilothouse yacht, and they are very expensive. Love the concept. Its true that this shipyard really changed these designs for ones with more seaworthy capabilities or not? There is very little information. I plan to go around the planet several times. They seemed to me very capable sailboats on paper. I would like to know your opinion, and understand if this hypothetical "renewed" model according to the finns, really improved its sailing capabilities? Greetings and thanks for everything. ✌️💥⛵️ PD: I saw the Episode 137, but your talking about the old models. Right?
You said in the video that the Catalina 42mkII has a deck stepped mast. I owned a C42 MKII For 15 years. It definitely has a KEEL stepped mast. You should correct this inaccuracy.
Good video - I love getting my head around this stuff. I'm starting to think "More normal conditions," means 'likely more than 95% of the time,' making the fin keeled Catalina not only faster than the Island Packet but more practical. Cape Horn? Sure the Island Packet every time (Actually I would go in whatever John Kretschmer was sailing because I'm not sure I'd want to try it with anyone else.) But how many times could you cross the Atlantic, cruise the Caribbean or cross the Pacific before you'd run into a situation where you wish you'd not sailed the Catalina? I don't know that much, but the way most people sail, avoiding hurricane season, use regular weather updates to avoid anything bad.... Maybe you won't ever really need the Island Packet? (I admit I don't have the experience to say for sure.) PHRP #s for the Hunter 456 I'm about to buy is 99 - good as the Catalina, but also 3 feet longer. How does that translate to _Performance Cat Thinking?_ The current owner says the asymmetric in 5 - 7 knots of wind will do 3-4 knots. The engine of course will do 6 knots. Right now I'm thinking that unless I'm in a hurry, the 3 - 4 knots will be enough. (Everybody loves a big sail up front. That's another plus.) If instead I just keep turning on that engine - - then 99 wasn't high enough. What is _Performance Cat Thinking?_ : those boats are advertised by the top speeds (that they can't sustain) but they're purchased by people who want to sail efficiently, want to sail upwind, and in 5-8 knots of wind using a spinnaker will do 4-7 knots without turning on that noisy engine (and cats have lots of windows and room.)
@@LadyKSailing Ouch. I know enough to see the situation - but not enough experience to actually know what I'll do. But you do. So that's the challenge: figure out the minimum wind required to get 5kn with sails...or learn to eally really relax, until I get the cat then it'll be easier.
damn good points. I have a Spencer 35. Mk1. Heave to and ride out a hurricane. No problem. Still, with a 9'6" beam the "battleship" may be The survival boat, but nothing is comfortable!
I can't talk about the newer I P boats but the 80s models showed their hull plugs having only 5 layers of glass in a 1/2+ cutout...way too much polyester resin
Great video as usual! I have a 1994 IP40 I bought June 2021 so she's still new to me and I have lots of plans for upgrades. Just had a set back due to a knee issue and a couple of other things, but hoping to get back to her in a few weeks. Mine as you probably know does not have a queen v-berth. She has a nice sized head then just going aft is a pretty much a queen sized berth. I have not had her out in the open ocean or in an anchorage to see how she sleeps, but at the marina that berth is just fine. I plan on sleeping in the saloon on passage though. Mine does have two heads. Thinking about putting a washing machine in the forward head at some point. Daewoo makes one that can mount to the wall so I should still be able to use the head if needed. It's a manual head where the aft head is electrical and the one we use, but it't nice to have a back-up I guess. However, I recently thought about removing it to add a mini fridge/freezer combo because I already have one in storage, but I don't think it will fit quite the way I want. I think I would have to make an extended base for more support. Anyhow, I just feel it would also take less energy than the fridge/freezer that came with the boat. Crap, I'm rambling, I forgot where I was going other than to say yes mine is a battleship, but I'm happy with it. I'll see if I can find you on Patreon. It would be cool to pick your brain or even have you down for a sail. My boat is in Kemah, Tx just south of Houston.
Rather than a washing machine, i’d get a “plunger” to use in a 5gallon bucket and then a spin dryer to get 99% of the water out, and the a final line drying. Much more efficient if you’re off grid. I bought a Nauticat 44 in galveston. It’s getting a bottom job done now, but i plan on keeping it in kemah.
@@jasonmcintosh2632 Interesting idea Jason. Some washing machines have a pretty good spinning function and then hang them out to dry. Your idea may be more efficient though. Where are you planning on keeping your boat? I'm at Waterford Marina.
amazon has some cheap portable washing machines 2ith wheels, you can plumb to the forward head sink, run it off the inverter, easy install, maybe bungy it to the wall somehow for rought weather, much easier on the back than using a plunger.
Basically I agree that you should first decide what type of sailing you are going to do and then find the best sailboat (features and cost) that fits I have owned a few sailboat and all where good for the stage in live I was at. Being 67and sailing on Lake Erie I bought a Watkins 27 because 1. Wide with a large cockpit so I could invite friends 2. 6 foot headroom 3. Shallow draft 4. Good directional stability so I could balance the boat and use bungee cords to self steer. Each year I solo sail 100 miles and this allows me to relax and pretend I am sailing across an ocean. Speed is slow but not a issue because I normally just sail to nowhere and back. As a bonus she come with a westerbeke 20B Two diesel that is self priming making changing the fuel filter easier. The engine also gives her lots of power just in case I need it.
Interesting comparison. I would have to agree if your plans are 95% at anchor the Catalina is the better choice. However; how often do our plans not work out? In addition I would add one more factor, are there kids on board? With children it is the IP even at 95% at anchor. The reason is the IP is safer. Also the IP has a better ride in all conditions. Isn't nice we have so many choices. The most important factor is go sailing! Be happy, be safe
It is good that you do not express your opinion often because it clouds your judgement and facts. C42 is keel stepped, Island packet is a production boat. I might give you the stay sail but there are a lot of C42's that have added an inner stay to give them some more options.
It's so good to see you I used to watch your original Lady K videos and I saw the last one shortly after your breakup . And then you disappeared and now I see you again I have a lot of catching up to do I don't know how you disappeared on my feed. I am more of a power boater than a sailor, although I've done both and I've also raced. When I think of a Catalina I think of the powerboat counterpart being something like a Bayliner it is low quality looks decent it's not going to last and it's fragile if that's a good way to put it. I have been out on island packets and they are like a Bertram or a Hatteras. A Kia SUV or a GMC Yukon
Lwr least wind resistant keeling design reduces heeling over and increases speed while achieving safe rudder control. The sailboat design always turns up in the wind. This is what is always missing from the sailboat design in the market.
I just bought my live aboard.i bought a Malo 96/34 not very common boat. But it got the essentials I want. Integrated long fin keel, small skeg to protect the rudder, high quality built and some insulation with balsa coor in hull and superstructure
This sounds like a, "Do I need a bluewater boat" conversation. Since I'm island hopping, the answer for me is no. Of course -- I'm sailing what I can charter. I do think some of the "island hopping" boats could do with something besides a bolt on keel. Hope you did well in the races. :D
Great video! Your right about the Island Packet. It’s a tank and very slow Island Packets are made in Largo Florida and a few miles away was the Catalina factory which burned down. Your right on the money with your video! And your thee o Lu one that has ever talked about meeting a shipping container in the water. It’s amazing how many fall off ships every year!
The Catalina with the fold up bikes on the port life lines my wife and I just bought it. Lol it has a keel stepped mast and is a pretty solid vessel.( we didn't pay the price in the add) wing keel 4'11
I've had the fortune of being crew on those two boats and I'm into island hoping too, and for that, the Catalina does better. That extra beam does make a difference. Some people have removed the self tacking jib (for a fixed furler) on the IP because, I guess tacking is less of a chore crossing and ocean than island hoping. Excellent video. Your videos about the thousands dollar boats are great, but maintenance and fees grow exponentially as you move up.
I keep finding my tastes in sailboats evolving the boats I would like I probably will never be able to afford I would like to be crossing oceans more but I have to liveaboard and work when I'm broke so I'm kinda leaning towards the same opinion as you
ALL CAPS COMMENT!!!
As always you provide pragmatic and transparent thoughts on some (very) "religious" topics. Well done, sir. Well done, indeed.
Look for me joining your Patreon once I clean up my existing commitments.
Thanks for what you do here.
Hahaha thanks! And thanks for watching :)
I really appreciate your honest approach. Tnx again great channel and very interesting
I owned a Catalina 380. The guy next to me owned an IP 38. I always invited him to go with me on my day sails. He got a serious case of boat envy for the size of my cockpit and bimini. His was tiny while I routinely had 8 guests comfortably enjoying a sail. I came to the boatyard one say and found his bimini in the dumpster. He scrapped the whole thing and had a new bigger one designed. Still wasn't as big as mine. I only used my boat for daysailing, but it was very comfortable.
Battleship. All the way! I spent $8000 in flights, haul-outs and failed surveys. Every Hunter, Catalina and Freedom had serious issues at survey. Deck damage, hull damage, deck damage, cracked keel, deck damage. As I was about to give up, my broker recommended an Island Packet….. which I now own! Surveyors exact words “she’s built like a battleship”! I care not about knots, I have comfort at sea and anchor with all the space I need!
I had a similar experience and went with an Island Packet as well. It was the first boat in my budget that just felt right everywhere.
Aren't you brilliant. Maybe get a real surveyor to look at that "Piglet's" chain plates-... Let us know how that battleship is going to sail without rigging. Many owners simply drill through the hull sides and add new ones on the exterior. Classy.
@@genesmith4019 I find it interesting that you could have any idea of the quality of surveyor that I hired. Your childish comment does little to change my opinion.
@@paulhicks1168 Of course it doesn't. Guys like you know it all. Don't think about those chain plates and what's involved in inspecting them correctly. You've got a survey Lol.
@@genesmith4019 Another petulant assumption, this time about me. So, I do have a survey which states”Due to fiberglassing of the chainplates to the hull, visual examination by remote fiber scope was limited to the upper portion of the internal chain plate. Radiographic examination of the fiberglassed potion showed no material loss due to Intergranular Corrosion and no structural concerns due to Stress Corrosion Cracking.” So, yet another childish comment does not change my opinion. Perhaps Tik-Tok would serve your teenage emotion state better.
I like this style of video too, thank you! And oh baby, can’t wait for that $100k boat showdown!
The reality check you talk about here is spot on! What are you really going to do? I’ve contemplated blue water, and maybe someday I’ll do it, but in reality we will do long weekends with day sails, and a few coastal trips of 3-5 days. Reality check says condo.
In the newer 30-35’ range the comparison flips from the IP/Catalina, to Beneteau/Catalina and now it’s light+faster apartment vs heavier + bigger condo. I’m settling on the condo.
Thanks for a well spoken reality check: When/if I blue water, it’ll be on someone else’s boat.
Yeah those island packets are great boats but not swift . It’s that blunt Bow they have and that full keel . One thing you have to watch out for are the chain plates on older ones , they are susceptible to crevice corrosion as on all boats but are very hard to change and require cutting the interior fibreglass bulkheads to reach the bolts .
Best video yet. Please share more “opinions”, they’re right on the mark.
You left the door open there at the end. So, what are your dream cruising boat?
Haha loaded question 😂
Love the video. However, I love the Caribbean island hoping but I also want to Europe and sail all the way to the black sea. Then what? which blue water-capable boat can I get without going over 70k? Beneteau Oceanis?
Under contract for a Catalina 387. Have to say that price got me. IP’s are very expensive.
Nice video. But I would like to discuss with you some more. I would like you fly here to Thailand and sail with me on my old Cal. We can do some racing and some cruising.
I’ve been a fulltime live aboard on a Catalina 42Mk2 for going on 4 years. Btw-the C42 is KEEL STEPPED. Lead Keel too. It’s a solid, simple vessel that’s easy to work on, affordable to own & makes an excellent home. She also sails very well & is an “A” rated offshore boat. I also have 2 teenage daughters & can personally attest that having 2 heads is essential in my case. I work on boats all day & both are very nice, well built boats.
May I pester you with a question: How's the headroom. As a guy who is considering a liveaboard lifestyle, I think my list of boats to consider could be dramatically reduced by throwing out all those that don't have at least 6'7" of headroom in the cabin. I'm a 6'6" guy and while I understand one spends more time sitting or lying down below, but it's still important to me to be able to stand up to cook, or to be able to run from one end of the boat to the other without having to be hunched over. The C42Mk2 seems very appealing to me, but I haven't had a chance to step on one yet. How's the headroom in her, any chance it's at least 6'7" in the majority of common areas?
@@tedvz Hola~hard pressed to find big headroom with a Monohull. I’m 6’1” and it’s great, but for you check out the 470.
@@tedvz I also have an C42mkii. Headroom is good. I'm 6'4" and have plenty of headroom.
@@zackhowell9047 Does "plenty" mean another 4" of clearance throughout most of the boat? I'm curious what year. I saw somewhere, not sure if accurate, that at some point in time the mfg made a change and the headroom dropped a few inches. Thanks for the input, folks!
@@tedvz Not sure exactly how muchroom is above my head but I would guess maybe 6 or 7 inches in the saloon and maybe a little less in the foreward stateroom. 3 cabin with foreward pullman.
Loved this episode. I am reeling with choices! I am finding that choosing the right boat is never ending, meaning that just as you make your mind up, another choice comes along!!
Yes, every boat - every one of them, is a compromise in some way or another price, size (to big, too small), features, or lack there of a "ready to go boat" or a fixer upper, etc...
So thankful for channels like this, real sailing. No sugarcoating, rainbow, or sunshine. Just give to them straight brother
I got stuck somewhere in between and purchased a 1987 Moody 422 , relatively fast and relatively safe with good accomodations.
Don't see these boats offered much in NA , I am very happy with it.
Your comparison is definitely a good guide for the novice boat shopper , the more experienced sailor knows the compromises.
Any sailboat choice is always a compromise.
From an old cruising sailor: The ocean hasn't changed. Once you are out there, you are at the mercy of whatever the wind and ocean throw at you.
Old sailboats have long keels; keel stepped masts; shrouds that fasten to the edge of the hulo, leaving decks - your working areas - free of shrouds that the racers demand; 7 degree sheeting angles. If I have to learn to play a harp before I can carry a box of beer bottle down my deck, I want no part of that boat.
If you want a party boat - 30 feet long that sleeps 6 - where do you store their clothes? ... food to feed them all? .... can they all stand up in the cabin at the same time? ....
A good sailboat has to be a very elegant trade-off between boat requirements for being a safe and efficient sailer under all conditions, and adequate storage requirements for food, crew, and boat equipment.
I must have a keel stepped mast, and be a long keel vessel. I want no spade rudders or propellers hanging out there waiting to catch a lobster trap warp, or fish net. Believe me, it will happen, and according to MURPHY' Law at the worst time possible. Boat design fashions change - the sea doesn't change
I am very glad you wrote this peirce, you have confirmed to me that I will buy a full keel heavy cruiser. Choi Lee, Hans Christian. ?? Help me out. Thanks for your time, Dean.
Very informative. You are right that the the Catalina will get into the harbor 1 hour earlier so you might think it will get a better anchorage, but it needs 2 feet more water than the Island Packet.
C42 with wing keel draws 4’ 10”. I’m not sure of the ratio, but I think the shallow draft (wing keel) outsold the performance keel by a large margin.
Granted, it’s still a spade rudder and every crab pot scares the bejeezus out of you (or it should😎).
I think you need to do more research on Catalina Yachts before you do a video like this.
For the type of sailing I’m looking to do (and it seems to be very similar to your goals) I have to admit that the spade rudder on the Cat concerns me. The skeg hung rudder on the IP seems to be more ready to weather the inevitable grounding that the Gulf Coast/Caribbean is subject to.
I agree. That is a failing point in the design. Lady K I think is best of both. Modified fin and a skeg. I'll try to find a model that does that design to talk about too.
I met a floatilla of cruisers all with Island packets (One Cheoy Lee) and at the bar one night they all agreed that they wish they had spent less on the boat and had more money to travel. You also pay a ton for the Island Packet and resale is not that easy. There are other choices aside from catalina. Deals are to be had out there outside the battle ship or the clorox bottle.
I have bounced back and forth on this very issue and what tends to sway me away from the 'condo' is the Capsize Ratios; they're almost always above 2.0 for those types of boats, especially under 40'. Does capsize ratio matter much in the Caribbean? If my boat capsizes, I want there to be a very high likelihood that it will re-right...otherwise I think our family would likely drown. Is it worth taking the chance?
Apples and oranges. I owned a Catalina 34 for 5 years before I went to the dark side with a trawler. Lots of miles in the ICW so decided to get out of the cockpit and up on a fly bridge. Island Packets are a niche boat for sailors that dream of going offshore, blue water., and maybe don’t. These are the same people who'd would buy a Range Rover for his one day a year he’s going to drive off paved roads, vs getting a 4WD Subaru.
Sorry, love your channel but you are incorrect about the Catalina 42. It is a keel stepped mast. BTW the blue one you show named “Lorelei” was mine.
I don't own a 42, but I checked a couple of sites and each identified the Catalina 42 as deck stepped. I wonder if different models of the 42, or different years, stepped the mast differently.
425 is deck stepped. The 42 mark 1 & 2 are keel stepped. Everything else he said was 100% correct. Love the channel!
cool!
Great Choice. We own a Catalina 42 MK1, 3 cabin pullman. A pretty special 42Mk1. It was Gerry Douglas's and his family's personal boat until about 4 years ago when he offered to let us buy it. He truly did keep her spotless. I'd always liked the lines of the 42, and this one is checked with a lot special items. In boom Schaeffer furling, Diesel heat, On-demand propane fired hot water, Custom Tables, Oversize Windlass, Watertight bulkhead, Gori Prop, Flir, Etc., Etc., Etc. We have sailed her quite a bit and spend a lot of time on Catalina Island. She's fast, extremely comfortable, and we are prepping her for the Baja Haha next year. She placed in the Newport to Ensenada a few times, and has been in Sail magazine, etc. While I like the Island Packet, The Catalina is a lot more maneuverable in tight quarters and easier to board. You are totally correct. We are not planning on rounding the Horn. But for our usage (Pacific coast and Mexico) she's perfect. I'm not sure about the 42 Mk2, but our mast is Keel Stepped.
Love your video's. Keep them coming!!
RUclips suits me best. I can live vicariously on both for the same price on the same day😊
Thanks for the Episode! Hope one day you will do same for affordable Center Cockpit Battleship vs affordable Center Cockpit Condo :) Thanks again!)
We own an Island Packet 485. It’s a center cockpit, take you anywhere tank! Lots of interior space - 3 cabins and 2 heads. The boat comes alive at wind speeds other boats are reefing or heading home. Check it out or any of the IPs.
Great video! We own a 2005 Island Packet and love it. Your analysis was fair and accurate. Yes the other boats would get to the anchorages a little faster and have first choice for the select spots. However, one point you may have over looked. Our Island Packet sailboat has a shoal draft of 4' 4". So yes the Catalina will get there a few minutes earlier but when we get there we can sneak around most sailboats and get closer to shore for the best and most protected anchorages. 😉
That's good to know as I am a first timer looking
Now if you want a boat FAR better than either for IP used price. Or Catalena, Look at the Kelly Peterson 46. Very well built, very fast, very seaworthy. I have crossed oceans on my 44. I say 46 because they are a few years newer and are even faster with more waterline. In my 44 I made 200 mile days. It is cutter rigged, it has the tankage that IP doesn’t (a weak point for IP.). I still see a lot of them down island with jerry jugs all over the decks. For comfort at sea and at anchor/dock, you can’t beat a center cocpit. She is not an all out racer but will sail rings around an IP and out sail the Catalena in all but super hard on the wind. Or super light. And in heavy seas would do better even hard on the wind the KP has 4’ more waterline than the Catalena and 7 feet more than the IP. Fuel on IP is a pitiful 56 gal and 38 on the Catalena! KP is 156 fuel and 200 water. As a “cruiser” should be. Under body is an extended fin with large meaty skeg. Another is the Halberg Rassy 382 or 43. Same price range. Of course on any of these boats you need a good survey. And avoid teak decks if they are screwed down.
It's too bad the Catalina 42 MK2 wasn't built with twin Helms I think that would be my ideal boat. I know they make a 40 but that boat just for some reason is it in all the boxes what's your thought on the Catalina 40 twin Helms?
In this case the Island Packet 42 verses the Catalina 42 should have been compared......IMO...........
Another great video, seems you can't keep the facts out even in an opinion piece. I have to say that I agree 100% with the importance of the liveaboard comfort factor, so I went for a condo built inside a battleship. I also don't particularly give a flying fig about upwind sail performance because I'm getting older and an 88hp yanmar takes care of upwind travel quite admirably at 7kts for 6lts an hour. I'll stand by for the barrage of naysayers bagging the motorsailer driver but the fact is I don't care, for me the travel is the goal and comfort is the primary requirement.
@@deerfootnz Don't get me wrong it will sail upwind I just don't want to tack every 5 minutes if I can do a trip in two or three long tacks I'll probably do it, as for engine troubles the anchors 2 @ 75lb will hold her while I change a fuel filter. Engine issues don't happen they are caused and if you have to anchor on a lee shore you didn't plan very well
The most boat I can fit on a small light trailer. Also, the boat should be dry inside while it's wet outside. A huge storm? Bring it on. Nothing should break.
When I think about sailing around South Florida and the Bahamas, I always get concerned with grounding. I know it will happen, I just don't know when, and I don't know how bad it will be. For that reason, and that reason alone, I want to avoid bolted on fin keels. IPs are designed for this kind of sailing. Shoal keel that is sometimes bolted, depending on the IP, but is always encapsulated. They almost seem designed to take an occasional hard grounding.
I agree with your sentiments - those full keels are much more likely to survive a reef "hit" than the narrow keels bolted onto internal grids.
Funny you should mention. My friend grounded his IP this weekend and it took an armada to pull him off the sand bar 😂 anyway something to think about.
Ok I stumbled upon your channel by good fortune. So what about a choice for a guy that knows nothing about sailing BUT is looking for something that is affordable, go anywhere, and is easy to handle for 1? I forsee short sails to begin with, destinations like the keys, Caribbean, etc. However once education and experience is gained I Invision a trip across the Atlantic and bounce around through the Mediterranean
Just too big still for me. Had an IP35, lost in storm. What would you replace it with for two people living onboard in Bahamas....think draft and cost but with reasonable comfort. Will likely not get IP35 again...would like better PHRF. Must at least be seaworthy enough for Carib too.
Agree with your basic idea of 'what suits you best?". I love Island Packets. They look like what a sailboat should look like. But I'm on my second Catalina and I'm all in. For the money it checks the boxes. I'm not crossing oceans and instead I need the floating condo and comfort to suit my lifestyle. Catalinas are all about comfort in a coastal cruising context on a budget.
I see a lot of people crossing the Atlantic in production sailboats. Their goal is more than crossing from east to west or west to east. The end result is island hopping, the Caribbean, or locations hopping, the Med. I wonder what boat might be the best compromise boat, as close t bulletproof as possible and still a near condo on the water. People might just like to hear your opinion.
To each their own. For me I want ocean crossing in a tank and the wilder the seas the better. But that’s me I spent most of my adult life driving semi on ice roads and hilly back roads so scared crapless is excitement to me. Good luck tonight. See you next week🍻
Is there any chance you can setup a super thanks for those who can’t do weekly patron support?
Sounds like the prelude to an exciting new RUclips channel 🤔
Looking forward to the $75k, $100k, $150k price points.
Older IP boats were tanks todays IPs have made concessions to point higher include the comforts MOST sailors if they are honest about what they really do vs what the romanticize they will do. Even Hans Christian’s no longer build the full keel battle tank they built their reputation on. Looking at the NEW offerings at the Annapolis boat show and their designs all including in mast reefing and Solent Rigs and even code zeros on top down furlers. Todays boats are designed for todays market exactly what you expect in a cruiser for 98percent of the sailors. The era of cruisers being like Lin And Larry Purdy sailing the globe on a 27ft engineless self built wooden boat are a thing of the past. YET many people getting into sailing are still selecting boats based on what they read from these early adventurers. Well ya the oceans are the same (in fact may be worse then ever as storms season in the Caribbean starts earlier and last longer and more powerful storms every year. BUT it’s about what we Actually do not what romantic vision we have of what we planned to do someday.
Loving your boat comparisons. Not sure what you would compare an Islander Freeport 41 to, but would love to see your research. We found ours in 2019 and love it. We call this our floating condo. We’re a ketch cutter rig. We have four sails plus a spinnaker. We are planning to sail east, from Michigan, in 2023 and out to the Bahamas. We’ll follow your path. We may never come back!
At 34,000 pounds, our girl “Dauntless” is a beast, with 200 gallons of fresh water and 200 gallons of diesel to feed our 75 hp Yanmar engine.
What do you think? Should we do it?
If you like a Catalina 42 Mk II but want to step up to a much better boat, try a Catalina 445!
Keel-stepped masts being somehow more secure is a strange assumption. The only failure mode of a mast which isn't catastrophic for the boat is a break above the deck level. The strength of the keel stepping itself is completely irrelevant (although it invites failures of it's own), even unstayed masts should be designed to break above the deck. Any boat which loses it's deck with it's mast is doomed.
GGR boats lose their keel-stepped masts regularly, but at least they lose them above the deck.
I’ve been watching many of these shows. I cannot understand why if properly optioned, why would you not take the Hunter 41 across the Atlantic. I see many that use it for that purpose. Then people who say they wouldn’t. Thanks
So you're saying the Packet feels bigger on the inside. I'm sold. You never had a head go down? That's what 2 heads are for. That's what 5 gallon buckets are for. Otherwise come rain or shine you're you're hanging your butt over the side till you get to where you can repair it.
I love your insight and knowledge. One thing I think many people miss is how the boat was treated. I am currently in S. Carolina tied up next to two Cabo Ricos that look like death. My 36 Catalina (freshwater boat for 40 years) is going places. She fills all my needs 6 for cocktails, 4 for dinner, and 2 for sleeping. While repeating 8 knots on passages. Why have a battleship when Destroyers are an option.
Would you say an Island Packet 40 of 1996 is as good as the 380 you speak about?
Thank you
Another comment: Any sailboat has to have have at least three anchors or more.
You need a main anchor; then you need a spare main anchor, which chain and rode, if you ever lose the main anchor: it gets stuck on something and you can't retrieve it; a powerboat idiot wraps it around his propeller, and you have to cast off your anchor rode till he sorts out his problem, and can give you back your anchor and rode. You need a lunch hook. you need a stern anchor to stop your boat if the engine quits while docking, and finally you need a heavy storm anchor, with lots of chain and 300 feet of anchor rode, as your anchor of last resort.
Great stuff, thanks!
Glad you liked it!
Hey Tim, we tune in for your opinion and perspective. Please share more! it's more educated/experienced than anything found on forums and such
I never considered a Catalina until your last few videos. I might take a closer look…
Sad when we think about the volume of debris in the ocean and boats sinking due to hitting containers, etc. Everyone be safe out there.
How many degrees higher could the catalina point (estimated)?
My experience is going to be 50% small boat and 50% armchair wishing but my dream boat would be a modernized Prout Quest 33. I learned to sail on a Pearson 26 when I lived on it in Baltimore and loved sailing the Chesapeake while I was there. Ended up having to sell it when I got a job in San Francisco and couldn't take it with me. Since then I've been looking at other boats that would be equally happy going from the shallow areas of the Chesapeake down to island hopping the Caribbean. Crossing oceans really hasn't been on the list of things I'd want to do with this boat.
I just saw a comment on a Project Atticus episode about their ocean crossing that these kids actually do not like sailing, they only sail just to get to places and stay there (it was their first time ocean crossing from Bermuda to Azores and the woman is pregnant, sea sick most of the time). That made me think about what people want when buying sailboat. I am yet to experience salt water sailing but I thought to myself I would go for ocean crossing and just be out there in those large open spaces for from everything. But I see cruisers spend most of their time at anchor or in marinas living on the boat and having fun on land. I have seen some channels where passages were considered a necessary bad thing you have to do to get to another cool place. From what I see, sailing an IP for island hopping would be like driving a Land Rover from caravan park to caravan park. It doesn't make sense but you can do it if that is your quirk.
they crossed on a 40 foot PSC, built for one purpose, to cross oceans, I was surprised at how beat up they got.
The Catalina 42 is KEEL STEPPED and very solid.
Yea but it's not an Island packet
Ive seen people that have one around the world in Catalina 30s and hunters they're fine lol as long as you have a good radar you can track the weather a seventeen year-old woman what around the world in a j17
Island packet.. always
Hoping you see this comment. How about an episode on your favorite (or best) center console boats?
I came to the same conclusion. That's how I ended up with a Hunter.
Dutch boats ❤😊
Hylas 44…🤔
In this day and age there is no need to buy a full keel boat like an IP. These are unique to the US. I don't think you could even buy a new long keel boat in Europe. In my mind the best compromise is a long deep fin keel with skeg hung rudder. Performance and strength.
I love these videos that suggest you only have two choices. Long keel or lightweight production boat. The reality is that the best boats are somewhere in the middle. These videos always seem to assume that somebody who chooses a boat to sail oceans only ever sails oceans and never stops. That's crazy. A good ocean boat will also be a great boat at anchor. Reality. If you liveaboard you fill every available space. Modern production boats are lightly constructed. If you load up a light production boat with all your worldy good, it will sail like a pig. Pretty similar to the IP. Lightweight production boats don't take weight well and we're never designed for this. If you sail a lightweight production boat overloaded in rough weather they are strained to hell. Expect breakages. Any solid hull in this day and age is a cheap hull. The benefits of a high quality cored hull in say Airex is way stiffer, lighter and insulated from cold/heat and noise. They cost more but give great advantage. My own hull is 1/4" glass on the inner face, 1" Airex core and 1/4" on the outer face. This construction is 37 times stiffer than a similar 1/2" thick solid laminate hull. If you don't believe me, Google it. You want weight in the keel not the hull.
Water and fuel tank under the cabin sole put weight where you need it low down. This leaves space under bunks for stowage.
You can talk about comfort at anchor but one thing many forget. If you boat rolls like a pig at every passing boat you are going to be very uncomfortable. Lots of Caribbean anchorages have traffic. Your modern lightweights production boat rolling around, may offer that huge cockpit that’s great for entertaining in a marina but there are are few marinas in the Caribbean. The Caribbean is all about life at anchor. Most modern boats have very little shelter in their cockpits. The Caribbean is breezy. Sitting in the cockpit in the Caribbean in the evening with friends getting blown around as the boat sails around its anchor isn't much fun.
The lightweight production boat is not made for this kind of use. We see bent bow rollers (have you seen how flimsy some fo these are). Everything on a modern production boat is paired down to the minimum to keep costs down so the builder can make a profit. They are made to a minimum standard they can get away with not a standard they think will last. Lots of the French production boats are built with throw away mentality. Generators installed before the deck so you can never remove the generator! Engines with no access to carryout routine maintainance. Saildrives for the convenience of the builder that are far less durable than conventional drive. Swept back spreaders that don't allow the mainsail to go out for downwind sailing. I could go on.
We spend 9 months of the year cruising the Caribbean with 3 months at home during hurricane season. We have crossed the Atlantic five times and will cross it again next year, twice. We sail at both ends o the spectrum on a boat that is excellent at anchor and excellent at sea. Its close winded and as fast as a similar sized production boat in liveaboard trim. We sit above our marks as the boat was designed to do this. Start looking at boats in the middle not at ends of the spectrum. Comfort comes in many shapes and forms
Soooo... what is your bt?
Yes, would be great to know what make and model boat you are sailing. Thanks!
@@UNKN0WN_1 I second this question…
I doubt these claims. Didn't even name the boat
@@UNKN0WN_1 Trintella 44
Hi, what about the catalina 36 wy it's very popular ??
The condo for me. I want comfort over speed.
So the reason for two heads is when one of the heads stops working / redundancy. 😂
I'll take an Island Packet any day over a Catalina.
i think my morgan catalina 50 is the best cruising yacht ever made
I'm looking at a 1981 Corbin 39 mk1, anyone have a opinion on it
Would like to hear your thoughts on the Catalina 425.
I disagree, I think the Catalina is very comparable. Catalina will sail circles around the Island Packet. They are of similar build quality, at least Catalina uses solid lead instead of that cheaper slurry. The Catalina will be much more comfortable in a rough sea as it won't pound and bob like the Island Packet. The Island Packet can't point nearly as well. I will say Island Packets do seem to be generally well kept, but many I have seen just don't go out much thus resulting in a less worn boat.
If I were looking for a battleship I would be looking at Halberg Rassy, or the like. They would be in the same price range of the IP and actually sail well and be comfortable.
The IP is actually more comfortable at sea: According to Sailboat Data, the smaller IP38 has a comfort ratio of 30.60 and the Catalina 42 has a CR of 25.8 - the higher number means a better motion and more rested crew. If a same sized IP 42 was compared to the Cat 42, then the CF ratio would be 34.12 - a significantly more comfortable design. If the Capsize Screening Formula is examined, the Cat 42 is terrible, at 2.03 (under 2 is best for offshore sailing) while the CSF for an IP42 is a respectable 1.84 which translates into a safer boat.
@@Morrisfactor comfort ratio has been shown many times to mean nothing. Especially when comparing different types of boats. Ie fin vs long keel. Brewer even said he made it as a joke, but people keep using it as though it has any value in the real world.
@@paulwyand6204 Interesting comment about Brewer, when/where did he say that? I'm quoting Brewer's CR from another source:
'While sailing is always good for moral, a lack of physical well-being in a cruising boat usually obliterates any sense of physical and psychological well-being.
Therefore, the comfort ratio, created by Ted Brewer, an expert boat designer, builder & author, created a formula to assess a boats “comfort” at sail. More so, a formula that assess how quickly a abruptly a boat’s hull reacts to waves in large seaways.
DISPLACEMENT ÷ [0.65 x (0.7 LWL + 0.3 LOA) x BEAM1.33]
I have used this formula, along with many others, as education tool for my clients to decide amongst multiple boats, and in my opinion, the formula is creditable.
Below 20 = Lite Racing Boat and tender motion
20-30 = Coastal Cruiser with moderate stability
30-40 = Moderate Bluewater Cruiser
50-60 = Heavy Bluewater Cruiser
Most formulas have small variances that can manipulate the results. And this formula is not any different. For vessels 45ft or higher, the results are skewed higher. And for vessels 25ft and lower, results skewed somewhat lower.
In conclusion, this formula will assist the understanding of a predictable roll or tenderness of a ship. So if you have a green crew with wobbly sealegs, perhaps a little math will go a long way into your next boat decision."
Paul - I have also sailed full keeled, moderate to heavy displacement boats as well as the lighter fin keeled boats and find the CR to be a pretty fair assessment of these designs in rough seas.
@@Morrisfactor I am pretty sure it was Robert Perry who was relating the info. We have been on the same various forms together for years. Also Jeff Halpern a well respected trained Navel Architect reviewed the island Packet as below. This very closely matches the experiences I have had as well.
"I have always thought that Island Packets are way over priced and way over sold; very often (but not always) to people who are entering the sport. (I base that comment on conversations that I have had with past and present Island Packet owners at boat shows. I am always amazed how many say that an IP was their first boat.)
Island Packets have never made any sense at all for the way most of us use our boats on the U.S.Atlantic coast. They are not good as light to moderate air sailers (the predominant summer condition on the mid U.S. Atlantic Coast) and they don''t seem to be great heavy weather boats either. The 380 really lacks a lot of the key components that I would look for in an offshore cruiser (seaberths for instance). For that matter, I have never been all that impressed with the build quality of the Island Packets(but some people are) because of such items as iron ballast in concrete (recently changed to lead in polyester resin which is slightly better), or the post mounted rudder masquerading as a keel hung rudder with a rather flimsey strap at it''s bottom to mention a couple deal buster kind of issues. I do think some of their details are quite nice for liveaboard types.
To me, it comes down to your goals for buying a sailboat (and people buy sailboats for a lot of reasons most of which are equally valid with each other). If you are just buying a boat to live on and you really do not care how well the boat sails or how much time you will spend motoring, then the Island Packet might work for you.
But if you are buying a sailboat because you really want to sail well and want to be able to voyage from place to place driven on the force of the wind, then there are much better sailing boats out there for the same dollars.
IP are designed around the idea (directly or indirectly) that there is merit to craming a lot of room and weight into a short hull. Based on my 37 years of sailing experience there is no excuse and no real advantage to that approach to yacht design other than perhaps a concern with slip fees.
Island Packets seem to offer a lot room in a short package but what real good is that? None that I know of.
When dealing with wind and wave, a finer hull actually does better. Nothing succeeds like length(read both the Fastnet and Sidney Hobart disaster reports). Stubby is wet and feel greater impacts from each wave.
As I have said many times, weight in and of itself does nothing good for a boat. It does not make it strong, or stable, or comfortable in a seaway. It does not give a boat the ability to survive a big storm or an unexpected visit to the beach.
Heavier boats, that are not carefully modeled, (and in my opinion the IP''s are not all that well modeled) require more sail area to drive their greater drag through the water. In my experience, this means more physical strength is required to sail them and as a result, if you try to sail them well, they wear you out sooner.
Then there is motion at sea. There are two factors that lead to uncomfortable motion, roll angle and roll speed. Navy studies suggest that both have equal impact on the comfort of people onboard boats. IP salesmen make a strong point about its slow roll rate but from observation, they seem to roll through much wider roll angles than other boats around them. I have sailed up behind them and really studied them on windier days (you rarely see them sailing in normal conditions) and they are making lots of leeway and seemed to be heeled more acutely than other cruising boats around them. Looking at rudder angles and at the owner''s faces, they seem to be fighting for control when a true offshore boat should not be.
I know that there are a fair number of IP''s out there cruising and that there are IP owners who like their boat. (Most people do like their boats.) I also know that a lot of these boats are sold to people with big dreams, some who never really learn to sail the boats or become prematurely convinced that sailing is a lot more difficult than it really is. To these people (and I have met quite a few of them) their Island Packet was a graveyard of dreams. As I have said before, from my observations, in the long run, I think you would be better off buying a trawler if you are going to cruise the U.S. Mid-Atlantic coast, than an IP since you will probably spend less time motoring."
Respectfully
Jeff
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay Ear Eyelash Smile"
Battleship would suit my needs better has I live in the uk
Catalina 42 is my dream boat.
Hey!..hello...like your videos. Tks a lot. I have a question. What do you think about Nauticat 385, year 2005-7 ?
Im looking for a pilothouse yacht, and they are very expensive. Love the concept. Its true that this shipyard really changed these designs for ones with more seaworthy capabilities or not? There is very little information. I plan to go around the planet several times. They seemed to me very capable sailboats on paper. I would like to know your opinion, and understand if this hypothetical "renewed" model according to the finns, really improved its sailing capabilities?
Greetings and thanks for everything. ✌️💥⛵️
PD: I saw the Episode 137, but your talking about the old models. Right?
You said in the video that the Catalina 42mkII has a deck stepped mast. I owned a C42 MKII For 15 years. It definitely has a KEEL stepped mast. You should correct this inaccuracy.
Good video - I love getting my head around this stuff. I'm starting to think "More normal conditions," means 'likely more than 95% of the time,' making the fin keeled Catalina not only faster than the Island Packet but more practical. Cape Horn? Sure the Island Packet every time (Actually I would go in whatever John Kretschmer was sailing because I'm not sure I'd want to try it with anyone else.) But how many times could you cross the Atlantic, cruise the Caribbean or cross the Pacific before you'd run into a situation where you wish you'd not sailed the Catalina? I don't know that much, but the way most people sail, avoiding hurricane season, use regular weather updates to avoid anything bad.... Maybe you won't ever really need the Island Packet? (I admit I don't have the experience to say for sure.)
PHRP #s for the Hunter 456 I'm about to buy is 99 - good as the Catalina, but also 3 feet longer. How does that translate to _Performance Cat Thinking?_ The current owner says the asymmetric in 5 - 7 knots of wind will do 3-4 knots. The engine of course will do 6 knots. Right now I'm thinking that unless I'm in a hurry, the 3 - 4 knots will be enough. (Everybody loves a big sail up front. That's another plus.) If instead I just keep turning on that engine - - then 99 wasn't high enough. What is _Performance Cat Thinking?_ : those boats are advertised by the top speeds (that they can't sustain) but they're purchased by people who want to sail efficiently, want to sail upwind, and in 5-8 knots of wind using a spinnaker will do 4-7 knots without turning on that noisy engine (and cats have lots of windows and room.)
If I had a choice I'd take the cat lol. But most people find while cruising that if you can't make at least 5kn progress, you'll be motoring.
@@LadyKSailing Ouch. I know enough to see the situation - but not enough experience to actually know what I'll do. But you do. So that's the challenge: figure out the minimum wind required to get 5kn with sails...or learn to eally really relax, until I get the cat then it'll be easier.
What an excelent summary.
How About gozzard yacht
So what is your dream boat 🚢
damn good points. I have a Spencer 35. Mk1. Heave to and ride out a hurricane. No problem. Still, with a 9'6" beam the "battleship" may be The survival boat, but nothing is comfortable!
I can't talk about the newer I P boats but the 80s models showed their hull plugs having only 5 layers of glass in a 1/2+ cutout...way too much polyester resin
Battleship fer me ! ARRRR!
I want to see Corbin 39 review
Great video as usual! I have a 1994 IP40 I bought June 2021 so she's still new to me and I have lots of plans for upgrades. Just had a set back due to a knee issue and a couple of other things, but hoping to get back to her in a few weeks. Mine as you probably know does not have a queen v-berth. She has a nice sized head then just going aft is a pretty much a queen sized berth. I have not had her out in the open ocean or in an anchorage to see how she sleeps, but at the marina that berth is just fine. I plan on sleeping in the saloon on passage though. Mine does have two heads. Thinking about putting a washing machine in the forward head at some point. Daewoo makes one that can mount to the wall so I should still be able to use the head if needed. It's a manual head where the aft head is electrical and the one we use, but it't nice to have a back-up I guess. However, I recently thought about removing it to add a mini fridge/freezer combo because I already have one in storage, but I don't think it will fit quite the way I want. I think I would have to make an extended base for more support. Anyhow, I just feel it would also take less energy than the fridge/freezer that came with the boat. Crap, I'm rambling, I forgot where I was going other than to say yes mine is a battleship, but I'm happy with it. I'll see if I can find you on Patreon. It would be cool to pick your brain or even have you down for a sail. My boat is in Kemah, Tx just south of Houston.
Rather than a washing machine, i’d get a “plunger” to use in a 5gallon bucket and then a spin dryer to get 99% of the water out, and the a final line drying. Much more efficient if you’re off grid. I bought a Nauticat 44 in galveston. It’s getting a bottom job done now, but i plan on keeping it in kemah.
@@jasonmcintosh2632 Interesting idea Jason. Some washing machines have a pretty good spinning function and then hang them out to dry. Your idea may be more efficient though. Where are you planning on keeping your boat? I'm at Waterford Marina.
amazon has some cheap portable washing machines 2ith wheels, you can plumb to the forward head sink, run it off the inverter, easy install, maybe bungy it to the wall somehow for rought weather, much easier on the back than using a plunger.
Basically I agree that you should first decide what type of sailing you are going to do and then find the best sailboat (features and cost) that fits
I have owned a few sailboat and all where good for the stage in live I was at.
Being 67and sailing on Lake Erie I bought a Watkins 27 because
1. Wide with a large cockpit so I could invite friends
2. 6 foot headroom
3. Shallow draft
4. Good directional stability so I could balance the boat and use bungee cords to self steer.
Each year I solo sail 100 miles and this allows me to relax and pretend I am sailing across an ocean.
Speed is slow but not a issue because I normally just sail to nowhere and back.
As a bonus she come with a westerbeke 20B Two diesel that is self priming making changing the fuel filter easier.
The engine also gives her lots of power just in case I need it.
As a C42 owner, I wonder where you found a deck-stepped version? It's well hidden from the salon in the head.
Interesting comparison. I would have to agree if your plans are 95% at anchor the Catalina is the better choice. However; how often do our plans not work out? In addition I would add one more factor, are there kids on board? With children it is the IP even at 95% at anchor. The reason is the IP is safer. Also the IP has a better ride in all conditions. Isn't nice we have so many choices.
The most important factor is go sailing! Be happy, be safe
It is good that you do not express your opinion often because it clouds your judgement and facts. C42 is keel stepped, Island packet is a production boat. I might give you the stay sail but there are a lot of C42's that have added an inner stay to give them some more options.
It's so good to see you I used to watch your original Lady K videos and I saw the last one shortly after your breakup . And then you disappeared and now I see you again I have a lot of catching up to do I don't know how you disappeared on my feed. I am more of a power boater than a sailor, although I've done both and I've also raced.
When I think of a Catalina I think of the powerboat counterpart being something like a Bayliner it is low quality looks decent it's not going to last and it's fragile if that's a good way to put it.
I have been out on island packets and they are like a Bertram or a Hatteras.
A Kia SUV or a GMC Yukon
You have a good answer for both , but my boat would be The Hans Christiansen 48 T CC now that’s a battle ship . 👍🏻
Lwr least wind resistant keeling design reduces heeling over and increases speed while achieving safe rudder control. The sailboat design always turns up in the wind. This is what is always missing from the sailboat design in the market.
Heck, if we can spend $200k, I'd wait for a JPK 38 FC to come on sale used. It's a cruising boat!
I just bought my live aboard.i bought a Malo 96/34 not very common boat. But it got the essentials I want. Integrated long fin keel, small skeg to protect the rudder, high quality built and some insulation with balsa coor in hull and superstructure
This sounds like a, "Do I need a bluewater boat" conversation. Since I'm island hopping, the answer for me is no. Of course -- I'm sailing what I can charter. I do think some of the "island hopping" boats could do with something besides a bolt on keel. Hope you did well in the races. :D
Great video! Your right about the Island Packet. It’s a tank and very slow
Island Packets are made in Largo Florida and a few miles away was the Catalina factory which burned down.
Your right on the money with your video!
And your thee o Lu one that has ever talked about meeting a shipping container in the water. It’s amazing how many fall off ships every year!
The Catalina with the fold up bikes on the port life lines my wife and I just bought it. Lol it has a keel stepped mast and is a pretty solid vessel.( we didn't pay the price in the add) wing keel 4'11
I've had the fortune of being crew on those two boats and I'm into island hoping too, and for that, the Catalina does better. That extra beam does make a difference. Some people have removed the self tacking jib (for a fixed furler) on the IP because, I guess tacking is less of a chore crossing and ocean than island hoping. Excellent video. Your videos about the thousands dollar boats are great, but maintenance and fees grow exponentially as you move up.
I keep finding my tastes in sailboats evolving the boats I would like I probably will never be able to afford I would like to be crossing oceans more but I have to liveaboard and work when I'm broke so I'm kinda leaning towards the same opinion as you
C42 is Keel stepped!
What about Hylas?