Do NOT make these mistakes boat buying - Ep 211 - Lady K Sailing
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
- This week, Tim talks about the top mistakes people make when sailboat shopping. From Ketch Rigs, to Full Encapsulated Keels, to Fin Keels.
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"Happiness is a lot closer than you thought it was" - I needed that
That was a strong ending, nothing speaks more clearly than the voice of experience.
I agree with just about everything you say here and would like to add a few thoughts. Regarding sloop vs. ketch (or even cutter): The individual sail on a ketch of comparable size can be smaller than the sail on a sloop, meaning easier to handle especially when up- or downrigging. I have an older sailplan on my sloop, 135% genoa and I can tell you: as I get older this thing becomes heavier and more stubborn every year.
I also would like to expand on your last point. A smaller boat is better and I am referring to number of berths here. As you retire you may think of the kids and grandkids visiting you in these exotic places you plan to visit. Let me tell you: They never come. The extra cabins / berths become storage for stuff you only bought because you have the storage. The extra size of the boat drains your wallet. And if the kids did all come at the same time with their significant others there will be a hotel room for those who can not sleep on board. So I suggest to buy a boat accommodating your regular complement of sailors comfortably and one additional cabin with a double berth for the occasional friend/s visiting or for yourself if/when you are being sent to the doghouse.
Great point!
@@brownnoise357
If you ask me it also depends very much on the age and design of the boat. If you are handicapped a deck salon, specifically the Sirius concept should be high on your list. Email Torsten, the owner and tell him Peter sent you To get the same space of a recent 40 foot design you would have to get 45 to 50 feet in an older boat but space is really only one factor. Personally you will not ever get me into any of the contemporary wide azz buckets despite all the room these boats clearly offer below.
When you look at the Sirius 40 ds you find comfort and privacy for 3 couples and a tech room in 40 foot, of course it is an (expensive) outlier. If I had to find a good compromise between size, room, price, maintenance cost, meaning overall value, and ease of handling / sailing performance: I think the Catalina 425 is difficult to beat. I also like Nordship, their 430 would fit your bill, quality and concept similar to Sirius but more affordable.
Going older: Wauquiez 48 ps, Moody 46/47 from the late 90ies, any of the Swedes, Hallberg, Najad, Mal(oe) of that time but you have to look mid 40 to upper 40 range.
Well said I'll have to keep that in mind, just starting and looking so thanks
Oh my god so true!!!😂😂😂😂😂😂
Family NEVER comes to visit🤣🤣🤣
If you are ever "sent to the doghouse" you have some reflecting to do.
For the first point on encapsulated keels. There are a few boat builders like Pearson in the 70s and 80s that often used encapsulated keel designs, while maintaining a performance oriented nimble fin design. These were done by pouring the keel first, then building the boat around it, meaning the lead is directly bonded to the hull and keel skin without any voids or need for filler. In my time working on newer and older yachts, I've found this design to be the best combination of both worlds.
Hi Ryan, what other sailboat do you recomand for encapsulated keel? I know the cape dory 28 is a good boat. Thank you!
Dunno, uma's keel was practically falling off when they bought her. I think, just understand what you have and do maintenance accordingly....
Snootiness, snobbery, la di da entitlement are just as common in the sailing world as everywhere else. Don't matter if you are buying a tractor for your farm or a yacht to sail, you will be judged by many for your decision. That's why I love this channel! I have sailed in a cheap little trailer sailer across the Irish Sea in a Force 7 and we sailed all over the West Coast of Scotland and down to the Isle of Man and it did what it was designed to be - an inexpensive island hopper. I have also sailed in an Ocean going Nicholson 60 footer and it was great for doing what it was designed to do. Trying to get OBJECTIVE advice is what this channel delivers. Many thanks and well done 😅
Thanks for watching!😎
With Stoicism, I don't worry about things I can't control. Since I can't control what people think, I don't worry about what people think. They will think whatever they want, based on their experience and based on the baggage in their heads. I have no time to sort through their baggage. I'm sure they all have a story. A sailor can love a Naples Sabot, a Snipe, a Cal 40 and a Catalina 28 MK II. It's the Indian, not the arrow. I'm the same sailor on all four vessels.
Found this in a Lattitudes article from 2016: "According to the ISAF, there have been 72 recorded cases of keels falling off boats since 1984, with 24 lives being lost. In some cases, the boats were extreme racing boats, but in other cases they were popular production boats of which hundreds had been made."
"Happiness is a lot closer than you thought it was" true of everything in life. There is no greener grass, just more grass.
How appropriate since just today I came out of a bit of a funk by doing one or two things that meant a lot to me and it just changed my whole perspective
If your looking for greener grass, buy yourself a golf course!
Grass is greener where it's watered 🤙🏻
As an aerospace welder, I'm not okay seeing a few tiny plates inside the hull to spread the tension on the bolts. That's asking for cracks or worse. Not only that, but they used square plate without any rounded edges, huge no no. It needs to have a large plate that links multiple if not all the studs together, no sharp corners. Even better if it has thick alignment dowel pins.
I’m no engineer, and I could not agree more. I don’t have strong feelings about a bolt-on keel, but that workmanship/design was just total Ass. I think there’s a good way to attach a keel, and that ain’t it.
Yes, people with zero knowledge owning yachts are murderers, they have no idea. Half of them are a danger to themselves, anyway. Just view video's on accidents, you often think NO, DON'T DO THAT!
As I have no experience with any of this I cannot agree or disagree but if that was the case surely boat manufacturers should/would change it? Just a question, no hate
Always good content and once again you haven't disappointed. One thing that I would add is that no discussion of keel types is complete without mentioning rudders.
I have a friend who was crewing on a Farr 52 when what they believed to be a sunfish or possibly a whale struck their rudder. This caused the rudder stock bearings to fail which led to the rudder stock thrashing around and extensively damaging the hull. It took only minutes before a mayday was declared and the crew stepped up onto the life raft.
Fortunately, this happened in a race and one of their fellow competitors was standing by, ready to assist. There were no injuries nor loss of life.
I remember seeing the captain and half owner of the vessel, the late Graeme Ainley, interviewed on television. His words were somewhere along the lines of "It's very sobering
watching your yacht sink below the surface, knowing it will be lost forever".
An excellent, thought-provoking review of some very basic issues. I've been sailing the world for 40 yrs, 17 of those as a professional skipper, it's surprising to myself just how my thoughts have lodged themselves into well worn grooves.. a rethink can open up new channels. Well Done.
"The World is a big place", agreed! When I was a charter skipper in Greece, invariably my charter clients wanted to visit all the most famous Greek islands. I had to get out the small scale chart and show them the distances involved, then point out that there were over 2,000 Greek islands and the famous ones all had international airports and would be over-run with tourists. The beauty of sailboat cruising is being able to get to places that others cannot and, as suggested in this video, hanging around in the most beautiful ones.
I watched this video because I am looking for a boat to live on for my retirement. I won't be living in a marina (what's the point of that?), I won't ever, ever be racing and I certainly won't be crossing oceans or making huge passages - I left such madness in my youth. I want to live in comfort, practically, in beautiful places and make new friends of a similar mind. If I find the right anchorage, I will feel absolutely no compulsion to sail or move on, unless the weather dictates it.
What I detest about boat reviews and discussion forums about sailboats is the focus on 'performance' and 'seaworthiness' for 'blue-water cruising'. These people have lost the plot. If I were to stay 3 months at a time in the most beautiful bays on Earth, no more than a day or two's gentle sailing apart in perfect weather, what boat is best? If it makes 4 knots instead of 7 and has a galley unsuited to cooking in heavy seas, it is totally irrelevant to me.
Concordo totalmente com você. Existem barcos que são velhos patos, andam devagar mas com conforto e segurança. Eu tenho 70 anos, brasileiro , e estou projetando comprar um veleiro nos EUA. O veleiro que custa U$10.000,00 a 20.000,00 nos EUA, custa U$150.000,00 ou mais no Brasil. E, se eu comprar esse barco nós EUA. terei que levá-lo para a Argentina porque é proibido comprar um barco usado no exterior e trazer para o Brasil. Terei que deixar o barco em uma Marina Argentina a 1.200km de minha casa. Isso é o Brasil.
A couple things you didn't mention are the encapsulated full keel boats tend to track better, with less leeway, and they generally heave-to better for heavier conditions. For fin keels, maneuverability and the ability to back the boat are a huge plus. I've had both and was shocked how difficult my full keel boat is to back even with practice!
Totally agree I was waiting for some discussion about tracking and slow movement
I love my encapsulated keel on my 33T Hans Christian. BUT! the new production boats definitely have a place and application for those looking for updated luxuries.
Excellent video! I own an O’Day 39 from 1984 that has a laminated grid and a stub bolted on lead keel. The boat’s been grounded hard several times before my ownership, as well as during my ownership. I got stuck in large gravel for about 12 hours with the following 1-2ft swell. The swell would lift the whole boat 4 inches every minute and slam it down about.. 6000 times. Some of these boats are built like tanks.
You mean like water tanks? They leak?!
I really enjoy your channel. Keep the content coming! :) My wife and I were boat shopping last year for something in the 25' range for sailing on a nearby lake. We saw a lot of rusty corroded keel bolts sitting in bilge water. We were delighted to find a Cal 2-25 with an encapsulated lead keel available. For older boats, it seems encapsulated keels have an advantage.
The downsides to bolt-on keels come down to three things: 1) Build quality 2) keel bolts and 3) damage from grounding. Lets consider those three things.
Build quality is s big part of the overall security of a bolt on keel. In a properly built boat the keel is bolted to the bottom of the hull or to a keel stub molded into the hull. In either case there needs to be a properly engineered and manufactured keel grid inside the hull to spread keel loads over a wide area of the hull. Poorly built boats will maybe have a couple of extra layers of glass around the keel base and simply rely on big washers to "spread" the load. That sort of build is very susceptible to taking major damage in a grounding and maybe even sinking. Just having a stub the keel is bolted to is not enough unless there are significant floors in the stub that tie into a large area keel grid inside the hull.
Keel bolts also matter. Most keels you will see have stainless bolts cast into the keel. The issue with stainless bolts is that if the seal around the bolts fails, the bolts get wet with salt water and can experience crevice corrosion which leads to catastrophic failure. Stainless bolts may look fine inside the boat but be badly corroded at the hull keel interface where they can't be checked short of dropping the keel. The solution to that issue is to use bronze of cupronickel (everdur or monel) bolts which are MUCH less susceptible to corrosion than stainless, but they also cost a LOT more than stainless.
Grounding damage. A typical bolt on fin keel can suffer significant damage if the boat hits something. As you mentioned this may lead to replacing the keel. However, when a fin keel boat hits something solid the bigger issue is damage to the hull A collision (grounding) will generally rotate the keel so the for forward end of the keel pulls away from the hull and the aft end of the keel pushes UP into the hull. Having the aft end of the keel push up into the hull can tear the hull leading to a very bad leak that may sink the boat even if the keel stays attached. The only solution to this is don't buy a boat that has had a hard grounding.
As far as encapsulated ballast keels are concerned it is always a good idea to research the boat you are considering to see if the ballast was put in as a single casting and what the ballast material is. Basically, better quality boats will have a single lead casting in the keel cavity that is fully glassed in place. Also on full keel boats only the cheapest and most traditional designs will just have ballast dumped into the keel cavity and surrounded by resin (polyester is much more common than epoxy) or cement. There is nothing wrong with cement if it is well done. Better quality boats have a ballast casting that is generally located at the bottom, front of the keel cavity with the space behind the glassed in ballast used for tanks and often a deep bilge (see Island Packet). Personally I would avoid a boat with anything other than a single lead ballast casting.
Finally, not all full keel boats have internal encapsulated ballast. Many boats have bolted on lead (or iron on cheaper boats), backed up by a very solid deadwood structure. In these cases the ballast is generally located at the forward end of the keel. In this case, you do need to be aware of the metal used for the keel bolts as I mentioned above.
There are 2 kinds of sailors; those who have hit bottom and liars.
Long keels often have a diagonal front edge. A gentle slope spreads out the impact of a bottom hit. A log keel boat will rise up over an obstacle like a ramp. Most bolted on keels have either a steep slope or just a straight 90º edge. That's crazy. It's designed to be broken off at the first rock. When you look at a boat profile, imagine it hitting something.
Another crazy idea is bulb keels. My son chartered a boat with a bulb keel and partial rope anchor rode. The rode got wrapped around the keel when the wind came up and it had to be cut.
To me the biggest advantages of a long keel is that it will heave-to at a good angle into the wind. Heaving-to is one of the best options in storms or when anything goes wrong. Narrow fin keel boats are terrible at it. They either won't do it at all, or settle on the beam, the last thing you want. Why anyone would buy a boat that won't heal-to is beyond me.
Boats should be designed for the ocean, not for the marina.
The thought of hitting bottom scares the hookey doo out of me. We are looking for our first sailboat. It will be a liveaboard for 3 people. It can be intimidating to find something with enough space yet affordable
All good advice. We bought our 37.5 Legend as a Bay/Bahama trial boat to see if we'll really love the lifestyle. If so, (and if needed) we will upgrade to a different boat later. On the keel battle: I calculate the risk based on how many days I am away from a travel lift. Hitting a semi-submerged shipping container at full tilt in the middle of the Atlantic is very different from plowing into a reef a few miles off Key West. I personally would not be comfortable in a bolted fin keel in the middle of the Atlantic for this reason but lots of people do it.
After decades of sailing, I continue to learn and adjust. Great videos. Proper maintenance and competence brings safety, whatever sail plan you chose.
Another point for ketches/yawls: lower mast height means a lower center of sailing effort (for comparable total sail area), and thus a lower righting moment is needed from keel/hull shape.
Or conversely: as the breeze freshens, you can keep the full canvas longer with the ketch than you can with the sloop (i.e., at some point you lose speed because of excessive heeling) - thus explaining the potential speed advantage you mentioned.
Of the probably thousands of YT videos about sailing/cruising...including your whole catalog(!)...this one is probably the single Most Influential video I have ever seen. Not because you were trying to influence me, not because I Felt influenced in any way...but because it was by far the most clearly stated video asking me to more clearly define what ways I have already been influenced.
I don't believe my mind has been changed, yet...as an admitted landlubbing dreamer...but I now have a sharper eye with respect to which boats I will seek out in the future.
Thank You very much!
Agree he makes some very powerful points and shows that he understands so well what it means to be a cruiser. Most of my sailing is just day sailing on the Chesapeake but I get so much joy from it
I have owned sloops cutters and ketches. For larger boats, I like a center cockpit ketch best. Especially with smaller crew. You have smaller sails with more options. And for boats say, over 42 or so feet, center cockpit is safer and easier. With better options for engine and layout.
Loving the new content Tim. I won't lie though, I'm really looking forward to seeing you go through the Erie Canal again and out into the world.
Although bolted keels can indeed be replaced after hitting something or grounding the boat, I am not sure if it is that simple. In most cases any crash will put a lot of stress where the keel is bolted to the body of the boat and likely crack things in the bilge area.
Loved your commentary at the end when you say you slow down. Well said.
Thanks 👍
I love love your channel! I am finally getting serious about buying my boat, and I think I have decided on a full keel boat, simply for the safety aspect. The whole bolted keels falling off has scared the crop out of me! But I am in lo e with the Catalina. Perplexed!!
Tim has an episode where he talks about the Catalina Morgan, kind of the best of both worlds. I still really like the Island Packet. Best of luck to you.
I owned a Catalina and my keel bolts were a little rusty and that made me nervous.
Thanks for the informative and useful discussion. I've just started thinking about buying my first sailboat and have already changed my mind a dozen times. The vast number of design options along with strong, and conflicting opinions of experienced cruisers is very confusing.
Tim, I greatly appreciate your ongoing assistance in providing your take on the pros & cons for all things sailing!
One of the best and most eye opening programs. I love the series and look forward to you back on the water. BTW, you're daughter's intos are sweet and sorely missed
Sailed through a Force 10 off of France on a Beneteau bolt-on without incident, but we had just done a whole keel-off repair, so that shouldn't be surprising. Bolt-ons are fine if you do the necessary maintenance (which is true for any boat).
Having done a single Force 10 in a principal warship, I'm glad our 'keel 'was encapsulated! 🙃
I've been researching my first live aboard for a long while now. Honestly, if speed is the only true advantage of a fin or bulb, I'd take a full keel. Extra stability and comfort at sea sounds like it'd be worth a couple knots of speed.
20:01 dude! You are so good at what ya do!!! Thank you for sharing the perspectives!
Thanks for watching!
Food for thought in that closing statement for sure, the more I watch the more I learn from you Tim, good to know someone like you is available for consults when the time comes time to find that happiness for us.......appreciate your insight always
I bought a blue water boat, then spent 3 years preparing for the voyage of a lifetime. Departed Ensenada Mexico June 14th, 35 days later arrived in the Nuku-Hiva Marquesas Islands French Polynesia! Solo in a 27' boat at 69 years young. Best thing I ever did and I would never own a boat that could not take me anywhere on the planet! Fiji? Hawaii? New Zealand? Bring it on!! Bleach bottles should be recycled not sailed. Ben S/V DAWN
Congratulations
That is a memory of a lifetime and a rare one for our human race. What was your boat? Do you still sail?
@@zaggnutt2772 Pacific Seacraft Orion (27') and of course I still sail. I live on the boat part time. I plan to sail to the Southern Pacific Coast of Mexico in the Fall.
@@benlindner5285that’s super neat man!!! I just got out of the army and I bought an old Alberg 30 cause I have seen people take them all over the world. And I can’t afford to hundred thousand dollar boat lol.
You inspire me, that has been my life long dream but at 64 (in good health) I have thought that maybe that opportunity has passed me by. I will keep planing to fulfill my dreams
Love the happyness part. yes, at this point, just hitting the water is happyness!
I love hearing a good counter-argument to presumed wisdom. It really helps to clarify the trade-offs, whether in life or in sailboat shopping. One thing though, if bolt-on keels are fine, and more space for living is fine, and ocean-crossing is unnecessary, then why bother with a monohull at all? Why not buy a cat with a bar and two refrigerators?
expensive to lift ashore for repairs and maintanance, provided you find a boat yard that has the equipment that big.
I jumped into the sailboat arena about three years ago with my first boat.... a Hunter 1985 28.5. It's a bolt-on keel, and set for single handed sailing. The previous owner took good care of her, and I picked her up for a good price. I really enjoy your videos, hope you keep making interesting and informative content. Take care, and happy sailing!
"Happiness is a lot closer to home than you thought it was". How true is that! This applies to all areas of life too.
I have always looked at boats like knives...you have butter knives and you have steak knives...it depends on what you are doing with them. On the keel issue, we watched a brand new 47 foot coming out of the shipping stand and the wet slings slid and the boat moved 6 inches forward hitting the bottom of the keel on the stand. The result was the thin keel ripped out of keel box at the front and the sharp trailing edge was driven up into the hull. The damage was such that if this incident happened in water the boat would have sunk. People who like to explore and go places where others do not, need a keel that can take a grounding. If you think it will never happen, then you are not really exploring. There are lots of places where the charts are old and have not been updated. We travelled into bays and other areas and the charts had just the contour lines with no obstructions....and there were obstructions..... If you sail on the west coast of Canada, large logs present you another fun thing to hit.....Another thing that you might have brought up is the overall shapes of the boats comparing racing boats to cruising boats as some weekend racing boats are not suitable for being out in blue water. If you are happy with racing then buy a racing boat (or a weekend racer/cruiser) and when you are getting ready to go cruising buy a boat based on the area you want to cruise.
Thanks again for the great video....I see that you are not the commodore lol...
I had keel bolts and don't want to go back for that reason of hitting something. I never did but watching it get rust made me nervous.
I've come around to sloops myself and I do like that encapsulated keels are simpler. Give up a few knots for a keel you dont have to worry about and bit of a shallower draft.
I have been watching the LadyK videos for some time now. Your info approach in this non bias way gets me thinking on every video. Here I am looking to purchase a full keel to sail the world and you bring sensibility into view. Really enjoy your videos. And hopefully I will become a patron of yours.. keep it up and hope to meet you out on the water and shake your hand...stay afloat..
Great closing monologue!
Good video a lot of info . I am very experienced on sloop and
Ketch rigs . A ketch is not designed to run around day sailing . They are meant to ocean sail . and if they are long keel very comfortably, I might add. As you know the majority of ocean sailing is on run and the beam not usually close hauled.
Running With a ketch rig gives you a lot of Combinations Of sail configurations.
I single hand a ketch rig all the time even club race . And the truth is it's It's not much more effort than tacking a sloop. The mizzen does not give you much hard on the wind and does not require much effort to adjust. I also sail a catalina with a bolt on keel and when you hit sand and mud its a hard bang . A full
Or long incapacitated keel usually rides up a grounding smoothly because
Of the gradual slop of the keel that is unless you hit a wall or reef.
You commented that a hard grounding on a bolt on is easier to repair. The keel
What about the boat . Probably not going to sink a boat smashing a incapacitated keel. A bolt on Probably will take in water on a bad grounding .
As far a long keel boats being slow my 41 foot has hull speed about 8 knots.
And I never win a race but I can sure finish them . A long keel ketch below 15 knots is crawling compared to a equally sized sloop. But when it hits 20 and above they are as fast as an equally sized sloop.
And u ended this episode with mayne what I want to hear. Id love to be prepared for ocean crossings, if it strikes me, but I could as easily end up in the Caribbean and just stay. I just want a safe boat!! I need to not be afraid of making the wrong choice. Thanks for all the great advice!
the safer the boat the better i sleep
I am in the same "boat"/"camp", safe to go anywhere. I personally like the Island Packet options.
I'm so happy I discovered this channel. You provide such great, useful information.
We have been out in a Force 9 (not by design, it was a bad forecast) in our non-bluewater, production sloop, bolt-on keel sailboat. It was not pleasant and 4 hours of it was more than enough, but it taught us just how much the boat can tolerate.
That was a great video, well balanced in its pros and cons. I hope you have a good 2023.
As long as you are not over powered as in too much sail… you will be fine. Might be a rough scary time but the boat will take it and more.
@@julianbatcheler9970 - we always reef early and we have a storm reef designed in to the mainsail
Another insightful video Tim, I decided when buying my boat to only buy an encapsulated keel, not because of Cheeky Rafiki but because of the number of non-catastrophic failures that turned up when researching bolted keels. In the early days of my searching I did look at several bolted keel boats but was not impressed with the way they looked 10 years in service, I hear what you say about how the keel is ballasted and agree it could be a problem but that's where researching the build comes in. I was fortunate to buy from the original owner so I have photos of the build and steel shot in epoxy won't be rusting in my lifetime. I'll wager no-one ever gets their keel bolts crack tested and stainless is prone to work hardening and stress fracture.
sorry for a possible stupid question, but can sonar be added for situations like hitting a container?
@@kevio6868 yes fwd scan sonar is now available
@@gmoose777
thanks!!
Good analysis! No boat is perfect and it is good to show an open mind when shopping.
Great episode Tim. Fin keels have a tremendous advantages over a long keep but haul deformation is a real problem.
You didn't mention what I consider to be the biggest advantage of having a ketch rig, that is the flexibility of sale plan on a ketch. It is much easier to adjust the amount of sails in weather with the extra mast. I've spent several nasty gales with a storm staysail and a reefed mizzen.
Great video. My wife and I got a lot out of this episode. Great job. Thank you.
As a small boat (40' sloop) circumnavigator, I agree with Tim. Go small and stay local.
Great Video, I have been watching for a few years now during my boat research. I love this content and approach on boat buying. As a future blue water sailor and this video has helped me to reaffirm my decision on the manufacturer and model of my choice of boat. Thank you and keep up the great content.
Wow, probably The Best, most informative and though provoking conversation I can remember in a long while. Good neutral but honest experienced insight. Much appreciate it and thank you for presenting this!
At 11 minutes and 18 seconds end of this video when you see the bottom side of Rafiki. Zoom in real close and look at all of the algae deposits underneath that glass. Look at all of the shortcuts that were taken during its prior repair. Somebody got in a hurry, and it resulted in a horrible and tragic loss.. That's not a reflection of a bolt on keel at all..
My dad had a pearson ketch back in the 80s and I didn't love having the extra mast & sail from the standpoint of management and having the boom so close to our heads in the cockpit. My dad however LOVED it!
Wow. Fantastic. Cheers. If you search you a searcher. If your in the now meaning in your joy. You are already there. In all you do. You inspire me.
Outstanding. Particularly the bit at the end about being happy! I also loved the distinguishing attributes of bolt on keels versus moulds! ⛵️
About the fixed keels, check out the Kraken Yachts. They are pretty opinionated blue-water sailing yacht builders and placed some argumentative videos on youtube. One is about their fixed keels that they call 'Zero Keel'. Probably they are doing it properly, as they cost around a million euro a piece...
Kraken’s seem like awesome boats.
If I were rich and wanted a modern yacht I would buy a kraken for sure
Yes! It's my dream monohull
Amazing video.. I chose a deep bolt keel.. it will be tough for me around Florida and bahamas. However, I'm racing with my boat as well and not just have a better performance but also makes it comfortable on big seas.
Lady K Sailing,
Thank you very much for this informative and well balanced video on sailboat purchasing choices.
I would like to add that many of the finest yards in the world use bolt on keels with zero or near zero problems. The same goes for encapsulated keels.
As an addendum, a properly engineered and executed bolted on lead keel can absorb a tremendous shock upon grounding which would result in the utter destruction of an encapsulated keel. The lead deforms at the impact point while the keel stub and/or bilge grid flexes and bounces back. Also, in the event of a rollover in bad weather, for an encapsulated keel, one must trust that there is enough structural integrity above the temporarily upside down ballast to prevent it from falling through the bilge and onto the cabin top. If this happens, the ballast will keep going through the deck and crush anything else in its path. A properly bolted on keel will stay put due to the thickness of the structure necessary to hold it in the first place. Rogue waves happen far more often than people are willing to admit. Either style of keel can do its job safely if properly engineered and built, but the key is the design and construction, not just the style of keel.
A bolted on keel can be a dream come true for those who wish to have more than one keel to suit different destinations and purposes for a single boat. Once the competitive career on the racing circuit is over, a deep draft performance keel can be swapped out for a shallower keel or a keel centerboard for cruising. If one purchases an older boat with a performance pedigree including the deep thin bolt on keel, it can often be replaced with the keel centerboard option designed and tested by the OEM, or a custom keel can be designed and built. If one loves the boat but just wishes for a couple of feet less draft for Cape Cod, the Inter Coastal, the Caribbean, or the Chesapeake, this can be an option with a bolt on keel. This switch cannot be done with an encapsulated keel, at least not economically. A well found fast hull with a strong keel stub and/or bilges for a bolt on keel gives options that are only a dream with an encapsulated keel.
As for new versus old designs, the battle is not new. Wide, light, flat bottom boats have been around for a long time. They have always had the advantages of extra room and speed for a given size of boat. They also have always had the disadvantage of a fast motion that exaggerates motion sickness and they tend to have poor ultimate stability which makes them unlikely to survive a rollover in bad weather. Long, narrow boats with fine ends, deep slack bilges, and heavy ballast to weight ratios have better capsize screening formulas, better comfort ratios, slower, more comfortable motions at sea, and generally track better than their wide counterparts. They can also give a good turn of speed due to the narrow shape if the design is good. As a disadvantage, they lack room for a given size, and they tend to have low initial stability which causes them to heel over more to a limit until the high ballast ratio takes effect.
One has to choose a boat for the type of sailing one is going to do. For coastal cruising, a wide boat is generally better for its extra room inside and lower heel angles. For the open ocean, the narrow deep V shaped hull with a good rounded run aft is better. A good bolt on keel gives more options and better repair ability after taking delivery of one's dream boat.
Fifty years ago I had an Alden schooner - club footed jib, gaff fore and Marconi main. She balanced beautifully on virtually all points of sail. We sailed from Guanaja to West End of Cuba in two days two hours and ten minutes, and I spoked the wheel three times.
One important thing you are missing with groundings and bolt on keels that while the slow speed harbor maneuver touches may be easy repairs, anything faster than that and most likely you are looking your boats whole bottom and its structure getting glassed again, inside and outside. My boat has this kind of accident 20 years ago and it took 150 hours for a boatyard that focuses on repairing grounding damages. So even if your full keel happens to be badly constructed or mistreated, most likely similar speed grounding will be much easier repair on them.
About ketch rig on thing to note is that if it is not attached to the main mast from the top, instead of being one more thing to fail it is actually providing you a backup in case your main mast fails.
Really great insight at the end. Thanks for your hard work and honest opinions.
Thanks for watching!
Always good solid information and at a great pace.
Have had friends with newer boats, Juneau, Sun Odyssey, & Beneteau who have often had problems with electrical, plumbing etc. Reminds of large expensive RVs with incredible interior finishing but cheap on things like plumbing. As for keels, faster boats will hit things with more force. Who wants to go oit in gale force just because they have a heavier keeled boat. Great information that covers different perspectives. Thank you, Tim.
I am very happy with a bolt-on lead keel design that is midway between full length versus fin keel. This is the shoal keel on the Pearson 36-2. Below the hull, the keel is 8' long and 2-1/2' deep, and is able to maintain a good hydrofoil shape (10" at its widest). The top of the keel wraps around a strong stub, with keel bolts extending over a 6' span. Those dimensions mean that running aground will spread impact loads widely, and the worst damage will be gouging or denting of the lead. To simplify the design and eliminate potential problems, I also eliminate the centerboard. [CB trunk closed off below with epoxy and filled with concrete - heavier than the CB, adds ballast.]
Concrete sounds for a shed, not so much for a boat
Material used for the bolted keel does matter too. Mine is lead bolted with stainless steel rods. Really heavy for the volume and that combination won't rust for 1000 years. My best choice.
Thanks for the keel debate input, I've seen full keel water ingression in a full keel with out a grounding and I've seen a bolt on "lead " keel that had fire brick poor out on a wing keel conversion. Lord knows not all bolt on keels are created equal, for instance Swan, X-yachts, and Grand Soleil back in the day used galvanized steel grids to take the keel and rig loads. I believe they have all switched to carbon fiber. I've seen my fair share of one off racers with pretty massive aluminum grids back in the day as well. I have seen a 40.7 keel grid repair and the cost of the repair was basically the value of the boat. As far as your speed comment between Catalina vs the Passport you should have used a Hans Christian. The Cat vs Pass speed difference in PHRF is only 20 sec a mile, significant yes but probably less than you thought. Having sold a Passport as broker a couple years ago I sailed on her and was surprised at her ability especially being a racing sailor. Ketch rig discussion was really good as well. A staysail ketch rig with jib and jigger is a great offshore combo. Staysail and mizzen.
This was absolutely fascinating. I certainly learned a lot about Keels .... but I especially appreciate your outlook on slowing it down and finding so much peace and Beauty in Where You Are.
Nice video showing that everything is a compromise. It’s what you want/need and have to look at the plus and minus of each. Thanks for sharing you knowledge.
Ericson's encapsulated keel was cast lead, and the hull was made in two half's then molded together.
One thing to remember about ketches, apart from having to find a spot for the mizzen. Typically, main mast and mizzen are linked with a stay, which basically means that if one goes down, the other follows. A yawl, on the other hand, allows one mast to survive a catastrophe like that, and also allows options for balance, sail shortening, etc. A #3 genoa and mizzen can carry you through an awful lot of conditions if the wind is too strong, or you are too lazy, to raise the main.
There is also a benefit to a ketch that I think you forgot about, having the sailplan spread out also allows you to carry more sail surface than a sloop with a shallower keel. So it can also be more friendly in places like the ICW were having the shallower keel and under 60' mast height can be a benefit.I think this is also one of the reasons why the Schooners and Brigantines started to be favored more over their heavier, taller rigged brethren.
My first boat (I was only 18) was a carvel 28' ketch, long keel and barn door hanging off the transom. It travelled ( not with me) from Dakar to Tahiti, where I bought it, with its owner builder. That was a beast of wholesomeness. No need for a tiller pilot. It was bliss!
Now in my mid 70's, I am migrating from a 20' swing keel trailer sailer, which I found underwhelming, to a modified 20' mid 70's era modified full keel boat (shallow draught), which bring me to the root of my sailing experience. Happiness comes in many packages,
I believe in the KIS principle and smaller is better. I get pleasure in simple things and as a solo sailor, solitude is bliss. So there!!
It is a matter of taste, attitude, and a dose of self reflection that makes a sane boat purchase decision. A personal, knowledgeable and self reflective choice.
I don't think wetted surface is a big concern in a cruising boat with an encapsulated keel.... Safety and more comfort with a fuller keel are a big plus. ❤ your videos!
I have been watching your videos for a long time. They keep growing in value and presentation. Impressed and admiring!
Tony & Susan here, really informative in a general sense. Answered one of my catch questions. See you next year.
And Beneteau were exonerated in court and the owners found liable because not only had it damage it was overdue for a lift-out hull inspection and they decided to risk sailing back across the Atlantic rather than have it expected where they were.
I’m aiming to buy a late 80s early 90s Moody and they had bolt on keels and as far as i know not one has ever failed. And as you say the 38 i want used to offer three hull options… a deep one, a shallower one and a swing one (rocking horse poo rare).
Ketch is just more to go wrong and more space taken away.
As is the sailors saying…
Why use two when one will do.
The other thing i would add… everyone seems to think you need a 44ft or more to cross an ocean.
But people are still doing it in 28ft and a lot of very good sailors are doing it in 38ft which was upto a few years ago regarded as a good ocean going size.
I liked this episode a lot. Not a sailor myself but I had similar experiences on other fields to what you mention re ocean crossing boats for first timers.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom and experience. Always appreciated!
On the discussion of Ketch rigs, a dismasted sloop becomes nothing but a raft offshore on a passage. The Ketch has the advantage regarding overall rig safety and can provide life saving directional control in a bad storm if the main mast fails.
I am in a boat yard at this very moment.
There are 2 twin keel, 3 centerboard two of which sailed the Northwest Passage, a few concrete boats a couple antique woodies and just about anything you can imagine.
The one thing missing is anything with a bolt on keel.
I don't know if it's coincidental or if they require less maintenance.
Last half was very powerful. I think it warrants its own video.
Love the ending as well. Crazy, we found so much joy in our marina but it gets hard to leave. Also one more comment that may have been addressed is a mast height under 65 feet for the East Coast ICW friendly.
ah Tim i rewatched this and felt the happiness while smiling thinking this is me, island time and no big plans, take care :)
I remember adding the ballast into an encapsulated keel, 2 whole days up and down ladders carrying and pouring lead shot and resin in buckets.
I think some of the older bias is the idea that they were overbuilt for more strength than "production". My old s&s '38 was so much so, you wouldn't worry about it's bolt on fin keel. Huge bolts, massive glass support and keel flared at the hull so more contact area. Mast was unbreakable w/chainplates bolted to massive interior support. Sailed her in 70 knots.
Lady K is likely similar. But the dark small cabin is nothing like a modern '38. Space more like a' 34 today. Just anchor in light air.
We are just beginning our search for our first boat. I have a littel experience but know my limitations. Im currently leaning towards a motorsailer, slower but with more room. I've seen a couple but its early days and Im still trying to learn what I should be looking at and why so thanks for the useful tips.
Great video. I started as an owner when I was about your age, or a little younger or older lol.. I've already stepped over the 60 old yr bar. Great points that I understood a long time ago and relayed my thoughts on them as well. As I get older the boat still isn't too much too keep up, winter storage, maintenance etc. Good video, I see you are putting a lot of effort into doing an awesome job. Congrats.
Just wanted to say thanks. At the point of shopping. Realizing I'll be inland sailing for a few before i have time to stretch the wings a little. This is reinforcing a lot of the thinking I've had lately on what I really need, or is even practical, for now.
But I still wanna cross the Atlantic.
Thanks for the informative content.
Well done mate, your closing lines nailed it once again. 🙂👍🏽
Excellent video. Great way to start the day. Thank you!
There’s a boat for everybody!!
I happen to own a Hans Christian 33, I am 53 years old, retired and both my wife and I live in it. We’ve own her for 10 years now. We absolutely love her, there is not another 33’ boat that can touch her (or 34,35,36,37,38….lol)
I’ve owned a Catalina 27 & 42, in my younger days I used to race…..now I cruise and I feel like we have the proper boat for US!!
Key word “US”!!
Sure there are newer, prettier faster, better sailboats out there but I just love our old girl. For us the compromises that we have to put up with are fewer than if we were to purchase a newer bigger boat!
But that’s just us……do I walk around the marina and drool over a halberg-rassy, or an oyster, swan, outbound, etc…..sure!!
But at the end of the day I know we own a stout, cruising sailboat!! 😇
Your food for thought was mind opening, thank you for the channel!
Although this isn't a boat story, it goes directly with the point Tim made in the last part of the vid. I built a plane, all aircraft grade aluminum. When I started looking at what plane I wanted to build I went to dozens of designer's sites. I was planning on a four seater, just like I trained in and had been flying (as a rental) for years. However, one site had a neat little questionnaire to assist folks like me. One questions was, "How many times a year do you fly and require four seats?" Well, for me the answer was never, it was just what I was used to. Well, the net was that at the end it suggested building a two seater, less materials so less money, lighter, quicker build time and more fuel efficient. So yes, I built a two seat aircraft and never missed the rear seats! So, while I understand why someone would want to have an ocean crossing capable boat, I would rather buy the boat that is useful and comfortable enough for me and my Master Guapo (50 lbs of insanity in a dog shape) to live on happily. If I want to cross the ocean in the future maybe I'd look into another boat but likely I would crew with someone who already had one.
I find it more comforting thinking that even if my keel is damaged because the keel is incapsulated I won’t have a hole in my boat.
Bought a Catalina 36 MKII and I could not be happier 😌
My buddy has one and it's always going out with good vibes!
Tim. I might add that most production boats (Beneteau, Jeanneau, DuFour, Bavaria) use bolt-on IRON keels these days, not lead. Besides constantly having to deal with rust, none are particularly strong when hitting a reef, as the narrow attachment point at the hull does not "spread the collision load" across a wide area but concentrates the leverage at the small bolt-on grid which will "pop" the internal grid loose and can even tear out the fiberglass in the hull. I think a full keel (poured in place solid lead) is still best for cruising, and not as slow as people think when the boats are loaded down with cruising accouterments. For instance, a full keel Westsail 32 WON the Transpac a few years back!
Your comments are well put. Note that all your examples are European ikea boats. I spend a lot of time repairing them begrudgingly.
Molten lead is not poured into moulded into keels. Simply, molten lead would destroy the GRP.
The new intro is fun!
One advantage of ketch you left out is that ketch rigs tend to be smaller (air draft and sails) than a sloop of equivilant size. On the east coast, it makes a big difference for access. And while you need to buy two sails, they are each much smaller (and so cheaper), allowing you to spread the cost over two payments/replacements.