Study Art Like You’re Playing A Video Game - Draftsmen S3E19
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- Опубликовано: 9 июн 2024
- Animation and gaming industry veteran Flint Dille joins the podcast to talk about gamificaiton! You’ll learn from him how artists can use methods valued in game design and writing to take their study routine and education to the next level. These familiar gaming concepts, like grinding for levels, can be used as a form of practice in order to enter a propulsion loop where you feel rewarded and fulfilled while moving forward in the “main quest” of your art journey.
Timecodes:
00:00 - Intro
00:33 - Gamifying Your Art Education
05:00 - Compulsion Loops vs Propulsion Loops
13:15 - Leveling Up
28:35 - How to Implement
34:53 - Gamify Habit Creation
39:35 - 5 Easy Wins
53:09 - Length of Quests
57:49 - Strategy
01:05:53 - Keeping Yourself Open
01:15:35 - The Grind, the Scrimmage, and the Long Bomb
01:23:07 - Grand Strategic Level
01:30:13 - Compensating for Non-Linear Nature
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ABOUT DRAFTSMEN:
Stan Prokopenko and Marshall Vandruff are art instructors. If you love the arts, particularly the craft of drawing and painting and image-making… and you want to level up your skills or even make a living with your skills, we are here to answer your questions. We’re here to offer you advice, refer you to our resources, share your love of the craft and maybe inspire you! Learn to Draw - www.proko.com Marshall Vandruff - www.marshallart.com. Subscribe to the podcast at bit.ly/DraftsmenPod
CREDITS:
Guest - Flint Dille ( / flintdille )
Hosts - Stan Prokopenko (www.stanprokopenko.com), Marshall Vandruff (www.marshallart.com/)
Production Assistance - Alex Otis ( / alexotisillustration , Charlie Nicholson ( / shloogorgh , Ellie Polk ( / the.mccartski )
Editing - Charlie Nicholson
Intro Animation - Cody Shank (codyshank.com/)
Intro Jingle - Tommy Rush ( / tommyrush )
Music Used with Permission Intro - The Freak Fandango Orchestra
If you enjoyed this episode check out the new changes we’ve made to proko.com! Over the coming years we’ll be continuing to gamify the site to help you learn faster and to make it more entertaining for you as you level up your skills.
@Steakholder I think with an episode like this where the flow of topics is quite unlinear splitting it up is quite a task and ultimately might not serve the purpose
Will the Proko gamify of the website include The Spanklord?
@Steakholder Based on my experience, I often had struggles to keep my concentration and attention during a podcast when one participant is constantly in the talking flow of a monologue while the others barely get any opportunities to speak. I know that this is mostly the whole point of guest episodes, but it always felt like a welcoming break and brain refresher when Stan or Marshall throw their questions or input in to lose up the strict monologue structure a bit.
If I misinterpreted this, please let me know 👍
1. Compulsion loops are habits that you have to do, feeling compulsed to it that don't go anywhere, whereas PROpulsion loops eventually provide some lasting value to your life, like getting better at art.
2. Before starting, loosely define the milestones or checkpoints that you will need to get to the endgame result. Understand who your masters are, what the fundamentals are, and a rough idea of the types of exercise that will be required to get there.
3. To start with, give the artist 5 easy wins, something that will pull them into the loop and give them a sense of earned achievement. Not too easy but with lower difficulty so that success is achieveable and the rewards gained. Often this is an intrinsic value that propels the artist to continue the loop.
4. As the artist grows confident, so does the amount of challenge and the sweet spot is where the artist is challenged enough to grow but not enough to get burned out or lack the motivation to continue. The loop has to keep looping.
5. As we continue our quest of grinding daily drawing, wether it be for public viewing or our own intimate practice, there will come times when we must implore strategy, and we can use the method of Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act to find solutions or ways to gain the skills we need to keep leveling up.
6. You must be persistent and have tenacity to find the endgame, above the talent and the planning. Must have the consistent effort that will drive you to continue the daily tasks.
7. Some of the types of work are daily intimate practice that will build technique like fundamental studies, called grinding.
Additionally, there are Scrimmages that have low difficulty curves, whether in a team setting or alone. These are small checkpoints to check your level and progress while also building your network.
Lastly there is the long bomb, a passion project that may have a high chance of failure, but because of the grinding and the network you have built, it can either have lasting success, or give you many more lessons to continue the grind and keep getting stronger and well rounded as an artist.
you are a good sumarizer Brett. And hi!
@@RoseDragoness thank you much, it was kind of a compulsion to help everyone because the information was indeed very good but just slightly scattered. Teaching in parables may not may not as common in modern society but it is still very much effective.
Good summary. Thank you for providing notes
Most important thing I got out of this is to give yourself "5 easy wins" every morning as soon as you get up, like Flint's 10 minutes of journaling. The private practice (what Flint calls the "private world") is the most important essence of being an artist-- connecting with yourself. The idea here is that kickstart can escalate and trigger a "propulsion loop", but you need to start small and be gentle with yourself.
I'll start doodling first thing every morning and see how it goes.
Same. I've tried the "do X every day" method but kept failing by the second week because my goals were too dificult for someone just starting a habit. I'll try doodling every day because that's as low stakes as it can get, and escalate from there in a slow but steady pace
Please never stop this podcast!!... I relisten to all these episodes when I'm feeling lonely or sad
Although this podcast is great I hope that is not often
Same here
I do this too! You're not alone, sister!
Listen, do you know why being alone never bothered me? Because I as a person had much to learn. I was set on making my own world up and I did. Soon, I started seeing people as an obligation and greatly valued that time alone. More time passed, and I found harmony in both worlds.
Give it time, and put yourself out there. I have no doubt there's a good fit for you as a wholly beautiful and unique person. It's true!
Be well, friend! (Also, I take notes on these episodes! I started doing this around season 2, actually. Check out the books they recommend too! These guys have always been a strange mix of daft and deft!)
@@KiX-K4T13 This is really on the nose when I feel depressed and lonely but when I'm researching and practicing. It starts becoming fun where I don't want it to stop and forget why I was depressed for. Reading your comment makes me relate so much. Thank you! I love Marshall or what Stan had said in one of videos Marshmallow lol.
too bad
Marshal pausing the discussion of Compulsion Loops to make sure he's understood and his mind is already trying to apply the lesson to other areas of his life... something about that made me really happy; love the attention and enthusiasm for what's being said. :)
Might be worth mentioning that much of what Flint is talking about is rooted in a psychological concept called operant conditioning. All sorts of learning are derived from it beyond game design.
can you explain that in english?
I enjoyed the episode pretty well, but man, talk about a guy who can just TALK! Damn. This guy's true talent is just never running out of another thing to say!
I'm impressed with how well Flint Dille articulates his unconventional perspective. "...I would argue most education is a game, it's just badly designed and we can do better."
Great episode.
Admittedly it’s a tough design problem if it wasn’t we’d have people walking around with phd’s to the fields they were born to do. It’s hard to program people when the program that they’re using may not be right for them even when it’s proven to work.
@@ilikecookies230 I think the tougher issue to solve is that we can design a better system, however, breaking it into chunks and integrating it with the existing system before it completely replaces it, without causing any massive damage to student's growth and progress. That's a much harder thing to solve on its own, too many variables to play around with and too many things that can go wrong, not to mention the unknown unknowns.
This was like the best podcast episode. Holy crap! That guy is a genius!!!! I have been thinking about how to gamify things and his explanations were extremely helpful! Thank you draftsman!!!
This is in itself a masterclass. I feel like I stole a premium course for free!!! The BEST episode on Draftsman.
FOR REAL
I'm so glad that this didn't end up just being giving people trophy and achievements. Very useful information!
The definition of strategy that he shared blew my mind : “.. it’s a mosaic of intentions, that is constantly changing with a picture of an outcome .. (Marshall brain hit)” !!
Thank you Stan and Marshall for using your platform to share this kind of knowledge, priceless !
" Give them 5 easy levels "
*glances at the souls series*
i thought the exact same thing
I'd say souls design was more about weeding out people with certain persistence level and keeping the ones who do succeed, hooked into the game. The game's ramification wasn't always steep and high, so the rules still apply more or less
This has been one of your best guests and chat.
This is probably my favorite episode from the draftsmen show so far. Amazing. I've been following you for a while now Stan and I've been here listening to the podcasts since season 1 and I'm happy to say that I find substantial content from this RUclips channel. You're both having on so many amazing people and you're making art education accessible, I'm filled with gratitude in all honesty.
I don't come from a place of privileges, and I don't get to express my self to the level that I desire, considering that I live in Pakistan.
I long for meaningful interactions and conversations with artists here but it's near impossible finding people here that can inspire me. I vicariously fill that need of mine through this channel. So glad you had Flint on the show. Thanks again, please keep doing what you're doing!
Interesting topic but hard to dig up the useful nuggets under tons of tangents and similar examples that lose the listener after a while. Hard to pay attention and stay on the subject. A follow up episode with just Stan and Marshall discussing what each one understood and got out of it would be very appreciated.
yes, I would really appreciate that summary from Marshall
Some of the best concepts are the hardest to understand. I'll be honest, I got lost in some explanations. But after really thinking hard and connecting the dots through out the show it made more and more sense. I really think there was more gold in what he was saying than I could comprehend and that's why I had trouble understanding it at first.
I found that taking notes helped. In between the many anecdotes and examples are a number of easily digestible concepts (e.g. grinding, propulsion loops, quests, stategy as "mosaic of intentions," etc.). You just have to be willing to pause the video to write them down and organize them yourself.
Yes, it would be great if Stan and Marshall did the work of summarizing this for us, but since they probably won't have time, why not spend a few extra minutes writing down the main ideas? I thought there was a lot of useful material here, there's just *also* a lot of storytelling. But you get that from a lot of professors in a formal classroom anyway. And you also get a lot of white noise out in the real world. Finding the signal is a necessary skill all on its own. Why not practice it?
@@johnrogstad1278 Right on, John. People gotta practice their higher order thinking skills.
The concept is pretty simple, the chatter around is just decoration. ofc i would like Marshall and Stan to make an additional episode about it but it wasn't that hard to dig up imho
One of the best podcasts yet. Seeing some one entice MARSHALL of all people with some amazing and unconventional thinking blew me away. Please bring more people like him onto the podcast to share their career experiences and how that translates to art. Wow what an episode. Great job guys!
Wow all of the things that Flint said I already took into consideration in my life. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees life as a video game. You have to choose where you want to go and act accordingly so you can get your reward. Really good podcast episode today! A lot of reaffirmation of my art goals.
i love how flint slowly started relaxing and warming up more and more throughout the podcast xD. Great podcast!
I am watching your entire podcast from the beginning... and I am now at season 1 episode 19. I just had to come here to tell you Thank you! Thank you so much for making these podcasts and thank you so much for inspiring so many people, teaching people and answering questions. This seems so dumb... but I am very close to tears. In 35 years, I had no idea that there was a name to this feeling that I had been cursed with, and Imposter Syndrom is the best name that fits this terrible dilemma of a feeling. Watching that episode opened my eyes.
This one was FANTASTIC, wow... what a cohesive marvelous lunatic. I loved him!
I started with gamifying my education 2 years ago. Great to have an episode about that topic
I feel like there was a Huge missed opportunity for them to bring up Dark Souls style video-games. When talking about leveling up life and videogames, Dark Souls is a no-brainer to clear up any misunderstandings on the topic. Dark souls is a difficult game.
-For beginners it's extremely frustrating unless you follow the correct path (a structured art program).
-You usually start off by facing the Final Boss directly at the beginning (being exposed to pros artworks).
-You feel frustrated because you feel weak in the face off its power (feeling talent-less).
You now have 2 Choices: Train to be stronger or Quit. (Deciding whether to pursue art).
-You start off weak, everyone is stronger than you (the art pros).
-You start by picking the weakest enemies to fight (start with Art fundamentals).
-You gain new weapons and gear after each fight (Drawing techniques, tools, supplies, tutorials etc.).
-You eventually slowly start to level up by building a repetitive system (The Compulsion Loop).
-After a while your growth stagnates (Becoming too comfortable with your art).
-You seek out help from the NPC's Quests - as they often have secret rewards (You ask for feedback on your art).
-Building relationships with NPC's will net better rewards (Make friends in the Art community!).
-You're finally Leveling up more efficiently (more Practice, feedback, revise practice, etc.).
-You're now faced with your first enemy Boss (Someone commissions you for an art piece).
-You question your skills for a moment but decide to fight (accepting the job).
-You've slain your first boss and leveled up again (gaining first hand experience).
-You set you sights higher and aim for the Final Boss. (Looking for a job at your dream art company).
-You fail a lot, and then decide to change your play-style (Job rejections, then boosting your art portfolio and image).
-You finally managed to defeat the Final Boss, but decide to play again New Game+ (You finally land a job, but often start at beginner level in the company).
-Your second play through is much easier since you have knowledge already (Learning to fit in to the company should be easier when you already know the art Fundamentals by heart).
And that's it. The game of Life; how to mix video-games with learning a skill.
That was excellent! Thank you all so much.
Mr Flint, thank you so much for all the gems. I've finally figured out.. "the fastest way to change your game is to change your victory conditions". I set my daily plank impossibly high so that it was a big negative feedback loop lol. That is so simple, yet I wasn't satisfied with myself for not hitting the impossible plank. I've made more notes than that, but the comment section is not suited for articles.
Mr Marshall, just at the moment when I wanted to gather the thoughts you came in to help me out with that, thank you~
Mr Stan, for the energy you bring to the interview I wanna say thank you.
Please, never stop this podcast. That's a great touch to invite people from other art-related professions like writing. I think that we all can learn things from each other.
@@jwhite-1471 Totally agree. Especially in multi-arts disciplines like creating games. I think video games are the most art-packed medium there is
I love this episode probably going to watch it a million more times educational!!
“I mean, you know, it’s just, you know, I dunno, you know, you know?”
Starting a propulsion loop.. “discipline” . I want to be able to show my 5 year old as she grows up to you can create good habits, be disciplined with what she has passion for! She will be successful with these tools!
Discipline is part of propulsion loop but it is not all of it. Many times discipline does not give that dopamine rush.
This is my opinion.
@@hiteshkaushik4563 very true. Takes more than discipline. You gotta have a passion and purpose for it as well. Discipline without a purpose for it will seem useless to someone. All three words go hand in hand
So many tangents. I would really like to hear Proko and Marshall's recap summary of this video. It was a bit frustrating since there are some questions he didn't answer, and some of the answers were already repeated.
Christ lord! He was throwing phrases and concepts that were unique to his way of thinking, so this left me in the dark on the meaning and logic of his phrases.
Pretty much. Everytime he started to answer a question and was about to get to the useful information it just turned to a tangent and a personal story and I cant focus on this enough to get the useful information out of it. Im sure theres some good info here but I cant get to it.
yep didn't really understood much even with subs on.
That's because your brain doesn't think like he does. I understood everything he said
Love this episode! Flint's way of seeing things in life is really close to (if not the same) way I see things!! The level of these new episodes is just insane, can't thank you guys enough for making it :)
Just wow. One of the best episodes yet! Thanks for so much
I have been listening to this podcast since it came out, and this is by far one of the most interesting episodes that has come out! I found it really inspiring and refreshing to hear about this topic from a whole new angle. Thank you!
I had to watch this episode twice in a row, it was just so interesting! Pretty cool knowing he was the model for Dilios too!
Holy crap. This guy wrote the screenplay for "An American Tail: Fievel Goes West". That was my absolute favorite movie as a kid. I used walk around wearing Fievel pajamas with cowboy boots when I was like 4.
Gamification is such an interesting concept. It is like tricking yourself into actually wanting to do boring stuff regularly, which leads to improvement over time. The hardest part is figuring out what kind of a reward system is enough to actually make you do the thing.
This final part about compensating for Non-Linear Nature is absolute gold for ADHD brains, which I suspect Flint to have as well. Brilliant mind and great episode.
Amazing episode.. So many nuggets of wisdom. Thank you for the podcast I watch every episode religiously
This is just what I needed to see this week. So many great parts to this interview!
I've learnt so much from this podcast as well as the other podcasts. I think I'll find myself listening to this one from time to time to motivate myself!
I just finished my second rerun of the draftsmen episodes, finally caught up to the present. it's such a treasure chest of knowledge
This is legit my favourite podcast, also Marshall's singing is a feature not a bug.
This was an awesome podcast... really enjoyed this and found so many pearls of wisdom from this interview. And of course Marshall and Stan are great interviewers.. they ask the same questions I have rolling around in my head!
I don't see much talk about gamification. Sure, this been interesting and I appreciate the precious advices, but its more like him talking about experiences here and there. The only part that was gamification is the compulsion loop and the modified propulsion loop (which the term make no sense imo, the practices does). I guess he want to avoid that the reason game and compulsion loop works so good is by exploiting brain and making people keep coming back (addicted).
Good lord. "What ends your career is doing what you don't want to be doing to pay the bills."
I'm in that right now, and I'm trying so damn hard to work my way out of it. Great podcast, super inspiring. Hoping to incorporate a lot of this advice about improving in your art/writing!
To this day I can't believe draftsmen is free. Please don't leave us.
This episode was a gold mine
Thank you a lot for sharing this !! One of the episodes I've taken more notes from x)
Best podcast. You guys are a great team.
Hello from Peru!! I hope to someday meet you guys :')
This is a very good episode! Extremely useful!
excellent episode! thank you, guys!
Lol the way he called it Galaga... But this episode was amazing
so much food for thought! Great stuff!
Can’t put it into words how good draftsmen podcast is ❤
This reminds me of the book atomic habbits. Setting up habbits to set up for success and when done right it almost set up the thing you want to do automatically.
what a great episode! love it!
My mind works exactly like Flint's ! I loved this episode
Fascinating. Really good, thanks.
That was a ton to digest... I think I might need to rewatch that again...
I've watched this one a couple of times and think i'll need to watch it a few more times. Very interesting bloke.
as a gamer and an artist, this is now my favorite video on the internet
i've just discovered this channel. This inspires me so much, thanks you for all of the advice!!!!!!
So inspiring and informative at the same time. With the pandemic my life changed a lot. Need to figure out what to do, how to rebuild my nets and how to meet new people from home. Thank you for the insights on projects and other precious stuff 🙏🌺❤️
I'll be listening to this again. A lot of wisdom on what it takes to be an artist.
This was a learning experience for sure.
Best episode yet, oh my goodness.
Fantastic and fascinating!
This was one of the best art informative video for me ever! Because it combined the two things I am interested in. If I can say the best video! As marshal said: bucket of gems! I insta re watched it. Thank you Stan , Marshal and Flint for the educating !!!
I didn't know Frank Miller was a huge Dashiell Hammett fan but that explains a lot about The Dark Knight. The Red Harvest is such a huge touchstone for a lot of postmodern artists such as Akira Kurosawa. I'm a game and film major, this is such a great episode for me and contains so many awesome gems. The talk around gamification is especially interesting, especially the stuff around feedback loops through positive or negative reinforcement. The psychology of making games and utilisation of the brain's reward center is super interesting to me, as I'd love to get into research on gamification when I graduate for the treatment of mental health and neurodevelopmental disorders. Thank you Stan, Marshall and Flint for such an enlightening episode.
People did complain about embellishments but I feel like the extra talk around the bulletpoints is a sign that you OVER-stand a subject.
When you dish it out in controlled doses it allows the listener to digest better .
It's a sign of wisdom I enjoy it and it also benifits my attention span... People don't know how to just sit and relaxed-focus for long spans, it's valuable in decision making.
Excited for this one!
i love the video. i really needed this. having a gaming pc that you use to make art is a battle asf. one-day im working and the next im sucked into playing destiny 2 all day
Very interesting podcast!
More of these please.
Insanely INSANELY good
I feel as if i may share a similar wavelength to Flint, because i felt like I understood quite quickly quite a few things. In particular the part about lowering your victory conditions. And not setting your expectations too high.
For instance this drawing determines my validity as an artist and it will determine if its something I should pursue. And this drawing will be good practice in my pursuit of this skill are far different in terms of expectations of the drawing.
Also I need to do 50 drawings to win is a quantifiable win condition or i need a better grade. Where as something like. I must like my drawing is far more arbitrary and difficult to achieve.
I'll take it a step further and say we always set a loss condition as well with our goals probably subconsciously like if i lose I am a terrible artist so I must give up. It can be good i believe to counteract this by consciously setting the goal as something more grounded like I must practice more fundamentals than I do currently should I fail this task.
A lot of my earlier years of practice had a ludicrous win conditions and expectations which overall made me feel defeated and like an insurmountable task. Whereas now my typical win conditions are do 50 drawings of a particular fundamental practice. The Improvement comes natural and it feels good to see it, but i still draw 50 drawings because the goal was not improving per say it was the 50 drawings.
I also have severely limited my expectations a failed piece or practice session is just that. It is not an indicator of my future successes professionally or personally. And yet I feel as though I often used to frame it as such even though if I take a step back that is quite literally the most ridiculous thing anyone could ever say about improving at a skill lol.
Thanks for the subtitles
Super informative as always guys, i loved it! ♥ But ngl I can't get over that leopard wall lmao
great ep !
Very insightful
Listened to this one twice immediately.
But while listening to the audio version i was sure 5:18 was an old Marshall soundbite 😂
The core take away: create routines/activities that'll give you easy wins.
I.e. for art: use grid, lightbox, photobash - whatever gets you a result (long as you're not plagiarizing others).
Getting these results creates a positive feedback loop, that'll lead to the habit of consistent work (which: has a strong relation to improvement). Then, later - you can spice it up; do more challenging things (which won't feel as daunting, due to the now-held experience).
Explanation/background: gamers will know. MMO's (and mobile games) are the perfect example of compulsion loops. They're incredibly easy to get into, but have depth and challenge at higher levels. Casual players will stick endless hours into the games, cause of: the accessibility+ease, and the intrinsic/extrensic rewards. But: the deeper challenge is always there if you want it. And neither are the games participation trophies. You do have to put in -some- degree of effort.
Good episode thanks
I wish he was my lecturer 🥺 learned a lot, thank you!
When seeing the thumbnail first time, I thought your guest was King Théoden...
Another great podcast!
THIS MAN IS AWESOME
Holy shit... this episode is amazing and I'm not even half way through.
I made myself a phone app to gamify practise drawing daily. I should polish it off, and try to get it on the app stores.
Fantastic.
Love this so much! Did Marshall get to structure these topics? Would love to see it
It's interesting - I feel like I enjoy art so much I'm already in my loop. But this may become useful for my writing/editing...
Also- as a teacher- I'm always working on students interests and how I can weave them in. I feel this is something I can delve into in my class somehow. Interesting listen overall.
I don’t know if Mr. Dille knows who Dr. Andrew D. Huberman is but a lot of what he’s saying reminds me of what Huberman talks about in his podcast.
listening to Marshall sing is enough for me to like this video :)
DOOM Eternal probably followed what he's talking about better than all other games. The stuff the game has you doing by the time you play the DLC is insane, and wouldn't have been impossible before going through the earlier levels. Imagining now what it would be like to have that level of skill come so quickly with art.
Whatba good podcast
Does Flint have any recommended resources for Gamification if I want to learn about it further and apply it?
The best is the intro at x2
my dude teaching us the sigma grindset holy
Can Marshall share his note after tidying it up?
Pretty please?
Hadn't thought of using grinding to get better. But like, filling up a sketch book, or doing inktober.
I think this strikes a certain demographic of artist that can relate to the game rhetoric and analogies. So for me this was great.