dude thats the whole point of Dunes story, Paul becomes a tyrant and later on his son leto literally becomes a "god emperor" ruling for thousands of years destroying billions of people
Dune lore is miles deep and miles wide. It can really only be reviewed in its totality. There are large motivational revelations later on that change things.
Hmm. A political system that combines the worst of both the Soviets and the Nazis on the Eastern Front, An Inquisition so powerful and ruthless that it makes Pol Pot look like a jovial church choir leader, a religion so deliberately false and contrary to the Emperor's intent that it must be supported by planetary mass murder and torture...a military that routinely sacrifices millions of its own soldiers and is practicing genocide against every other intelligent species in the Galaxy...and these are the GOOD guys...and what they're doing is completely necessary for the survival of humanity. I think he would go fetal, weeping inconsolably. Remember Cadia!
Well it’s definitely a look towards a god figure of a man… so still idolization to a man rather than the higher power. And the disregard for life isn’t exactly Christian lol
As the narrative weaves themes of power, prophecy, and redemption, it prompts reflection on the human condition and our quest for meaning. Reminds me of Proverbs 16:18, "Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall."
John- " I liked Paul"... But you weren't supposed to, or at the very least you were supposed to realize that he is the anti-hero. At least according to Frank Herbert. Frank Herbert stated that his intention was to undermine the idea of a messiah. He was quite frustrated after the publication of his first book that his audience liked Paul and considered him to be a hero. This was not Herbert's intent. the rest of his series went double time to undermine the idea that a savior is possible or a good idea. Yes Herbert did use elements of Christian ideology, but Paul and the Freeman religion is based way more on Muhammad and Islam. And the jihad of hate that could not be stopped once it got started.
Paul not using the Voice on Feyd wasn't a plot hole, it's specifically mentioned he needs to do it "honarably" not just for self honor but so that the fight is recognized (He knows the word to say to freeze Feyd in his tracks and chooses not to use it)
100%. And you'd think that 'warrior poets' in a 'warrior poet society' might have a clue about this concept of fighting with spiritual honor, rather than indulging themselves in such a dismissive assumption as 'pLoT hOLe'...
Feyd actually has a built in special "shutdown" word (bad description) that the Bene Gesserit have put in him that his mom tries to get him to use that he fights with possibly using throughout the fight also. The fight on the whole is much deeper in the book (Feyd trying to poison Paul being dishonorable, making Paul fight with his own Honor) but it was a great fight sequence in Part 2 none the less
Everything’s a psyop if you want it to be a psyop. It’s a fairly complex book series, and it’s not right OR wrong about religion. It’s giving you good and bad story lines for what it could be and represent to a certain group of people. This latest movie series has been pretty good, but it’s grossly simplistic of its characters and their desires; almost an over the top portrayal.
Exactly... Christianity is almost bettered by Dune by its backseat. OC is a corrupted Christianity, warning against the tolerance the current pope shows, and the islam derivative of the Fremen demonstrate its vulnerability to the fabled charismatic leader. It's telling that Orange Catholic's are the people who were exterminated.
To address John’s questions at the 34:00 minute mark... There is a construct of screenwriting which propels action, that being: *_maximum conflict equals maximum emotion_*. After all, people watch movies (other than documentaries) to be emotionally moved through entertainment. Thus, had Paul used _‘the voice’_ to quickly dispatch Feyd-Rautha (played by Austin Butler). The audience would have been denied satisfaction, generated from witnessing Paul physically defeating Feyd; for all intent and purpose, the antagonist. This wasn’t a “plot hole” as Mr. Kone suggests, but rather a purposeful feature.
Be wary of those that would lead, period. Not to say you don't need them, but all those who would be in power must be objectively observed, always. Turns out its not the charismatic ones that have been screwing us over the most, but rather the ones we elected and then forget about for 60 years.
Hey now, in LoTR magic is not the kind that you're looking for John, Gandalf doesn't shoot Fireballs because he's not there to solve people's problems, he's a messenger to help the people fix their problems. And the Eagles would have been taken down and the ring captured if they'd just flown in while Sauron was in full power, he'd have seen them coming for sure. The boat is a better idea, more subtle, but also if they'd taken the ring to Gondor then it would have been taken by Denethor and we'd see Denethor try to overthrow Sauron and in turn become a wraith or the new dark lord.
Exactly. And in the movies Gandalf's magic is all the more glorious when it's rare, like against the Balrog or the beam of light against the dragons on the battlefield outside of the white city. That damned beam chokes me up every time I see that scene, because the dragons are mowing down those suicidally brave knights and they are all dead without Gandalf charging out alone to save them.
Exactly. And whenever a character chocks too much up to "magic" or "chance", Gandalf reminds them that he had been "sent" and that our fates have been "purposed". Hinting at God himself, not witchcraft or Mother Earth, as the source of Gandalf's power.
Right. The voice would have been noticed by the witnesses and invalidated Kanly, and therefore Paul's challenge to the Emperor. The Great Houses of the Lansraad would have murdered him for trickery. A fight which was perceived to be fair was the only possible way for him to take the throne and prosecute his jihad.
Thanks for the tip on Harrison’s books, knew that about Dune. Also one of your rifles is on the way from DD at this moment and I can’t wait to hold it. I’m a disabled veteran and am mostly bedridden but I am building myself up so I can get out and shoot. I believe it’s going to be necessary sooner rather than later to protect our loved ones and property hence my purchase of the M4. I’m hoping it will give me the impetus to get out and train as much as possible within my disability to defend us. Your a good man and my wife and I wish you more success in your endeavors. God bless you.
I’m still wondering how they will place Paul’s sister into the movie. She should have been in the 2nd movie and been the one to off a main baddie. Before watching I was wondering if they would cgi a toddler that walks around and talks like a grown up but see that didn’t happen and now wondering if she will be a teenager in the next movie to make it easier and not as weird.
While the Dune universe does critique the idea of Messiah and charismatic leaders, ultimately Paul’s son Leto II shepherds humanity on the Golden Path, thus ensuring their survival and showing that the salvation of humanity can only happen through the actions of one, powerful god like figure. So it both critiques and upholds the idea of powerful leaders but extends the critique beyond religion to include government also. So I don’t think saying it undermines a Christian worldview entirely gets at the core of it.
@@7sunfire7 I love John's content but sadly he has a history of doing this He does it in some of his older book reviews Fails to understand the deeper meanings then labels then as anti Christian or new age when they arent
I like that Leto II is the the real antihero, I always saw Paul as a villain/coward for thrusting what he saw coming onto Leto, even though the worm handled it in spades, it wasn’t truly his burden. Paul skipped out on his family to go beat off in the desert, when he should’ve retained his vitality; ipso facto be a damn man.
FWIW, JRR Tolkien hated the source material so much that he returned the book even though it was received as a gift. Granted, he was picky, but Herbert's worldview would've been readily apparent to someone like him.
Man I thought the religious message in this was spot on… more critical today than ever before. Blind following / fanaticism esp. of religious leaders is dangerous
One of the problems of being “The Chosen One” in fiction is it can give the main character plot armor. Or the suspicion of plot armor. A character, even as a “Chosen One,” has to be a relatable character for audiences to sympathize with. Nobody cares about a character that flexes “I’m The Chosen One.” But everyone can relate to a character, no matter how formidable, whose response to being told he’s The Chosen One is “WTF is everyone talking about?”
If the bene gesserits took the blue liquid before creating that prophecy, it could be argued that they were only instruments of God in creating that "golden path". They just took credit for it within their own views. They didnt create the prophecy out of their own idea, they created the prophecy after being shown it as the ideal pathway to take
I had the same observation about Anakin… the kid who was born without a father needing to conceive him… he was conceived by ‘the force” in the movie. I really didn’t like that parallel when I watched Star Wars.
If it helps, Anakin was originally supposed to be created through the will of the dark side. The Force rebelled and instead used his creation as a tool to bring balance to the Force.
Read (or listen to, the audiobooks are fantastic) "Darth Plagueis" if you're interested enough in learning the canon behind Anakin's conception. He was literally created by Plagueis and Sidious through the Force.
I’d highly recommend reading the first 4 books and then re doing a video of what you think of dune and Paul as a whole. The movie is only a small tip of the iceberg of what is truly going on and what the story is about. If you wanna listen to some videos about dune and summaries of the books check out Quinn’s ideas channel on here.
Love your content and message and have been watching you for a couple years. This is the first time I’ve felt put off by what you’ve published. Comes across defensive and paranoid, brother. I’ve read the Dune series a few times and just don’t see the connections you’ve made here on the negative (psy-ops) side. I was raised and am a Christian and this felt like your were reaching . Also your expert was not an expert. He was incorrect on a lot of facts within the books.
With respect, you have completely misunderstood Dune, and neither of you have read the books closely enough to grasp its actual philosophical roots and themes. The power of the Kwisatz Haderach is not magical or spiritual. It is a tool for prediction like the thought experiment of Pierre Laplace’s demon. I.e. if a demon existed that could know the past position and current trajectory of every atom in the universe, it could predict the future with a high degree of accuracy. The water of life grants a person access to the memories of their ancestors. Only a male, having X and Y chromosomes, can inherit the male “other memory” as well as the female. The all-female Bene Gesserit can only access the female other memory. Until Paul-a male bred through eugenics and societal manipulation- no male could survive the water of life; he is the first successful Kwisatz Haderach. Because he can see his ancestors’ past lives and memories, he is able to make very accurate predictions about human and societal behavior, allowing him to guide humanity along paths of his own choosing. Eventually, he meddles so much in the future that he is boxed in between making choices where everyone he loves dies, or indirectly causing the mass extinction of humanity. He is literally stated to be a false God, and later, in repentance for his acts, calls his own followers idolaters for worshiping him, a mere man. In the later books in the series, his actions have disastrous consequences. He and his descendants spend millennia intentionally trying to un-deify him. They also work to breed humans who cannot be seen by prescience and scatter humanity far and wide enough across space that no tyrannical force could ever enslave or destroy all of humanity. You, as a professing Christian of orthodox theological beliefs, would certainly call something like Mormonism a heresy or a blasphemy, which is the character that Frank Herbert colors the Fremen prophecies with, as they were planted by the Bene Gesserit in order to give potential future allies a hiding place on Arrakis. Your Christian Faith necessitates that you literally believe that every non-Christian religious prophecy in human history was false, so I have no idea how you can’t get on board with the idea of being careful with charismatic leaders who make mystical claims. The point is that the BG plan BACKFIRED massively in that Paul was able to become prescient a generation too early and gain control over the Fremen, the deadliest fighting force in the galaxy. The entire essence of Dune is a person- who tried to become a god- meddled with powers beyond his understanding, nearly destroyed humanity, and was brought to personal tragedy and ruin because of it. There’s nothing pro-pantheistic about the characterization of Paul’s abilities at all. He is literally called the Mahdi, which is the contemporary Islamic word for their prophesied messiah, who you, a Christian, openly claim to be a FALSE messiah from a FALSE prophecy. Dune is not some backhanded, sneaky assault on Christianity dude.
1) the voice although used is technically one of the BG secrets and to maintain power they guard those secrets so using it in a public fight might not be a good idea if you want to keep using it afterwards without too much fuss and 2) Fighting to end a dispute was a valid way to settle something and since it is sort of a contract I don't think outright cheating would go over well, I suppose you would have to hope no one realized you used some kind of magic or trick (voice) and he just decided to kill himself randomly.
Speaking of psy ops, check out Cordwainer Smith (Paul Linebarger)! 😀He's one of my all-time favorite scifi writers. Smith was a very gifted and talented person in general. He was fluent in six languages in his teens. He received his PhD in political science from Johns Hopkins at age 23. He literally wrote the book on psychological warfare which was used by the military at the time. He was a professor at Johns Hopkins. He had close connections to the democratic forces in China; he was the the godson of Sun Yat-sen and a close confidant of Chiang Kai-shek. He did all this while dodging KGB agents and other communists. He wrote about things that virtually no one else in the Golden Age of science fiction wrote about. After he became a Christian, he rewrote much of his scifi to fall in line with Christianity, which in his case significantly improved his overall literary vision. Contrary to many if not most scifi writers at the time, Smith didn't see humanity's brightest future in biological and/or technological innovation and evolution. Rather he saw humanity best as God created humanity to be. This is a similar lesson to the film Gattaca. In any case, it's too bad Cordwainer Smith isn't better known, but he is a brilliant scifi writer with a unique vision especially for his time.
It's much less Christian in nature and more Islamic in nature, especially considering the spice that the galaxy is dependent on is like a stand in for oil. Also the prophecy did come from someone in star wars if you didn't know that
That cheap method of tying loose ends together is called "deus ex machina," god from a machine. The ancient Greeks used to lower a god by pulley onto the stage to resolve plot holes. At least when I was in college half a century ago, it was regarded as a sub-par literary device, spoken of with mild derision.
This is the kind of talk that gives ppl a bad taste when it comes to Christianity. Frank Herberts religious views are completely unknown. As a Christian myself, I believe assuming malice against Christians by Frank is misguided and/or obtuse. He wanted to tell a science fiction story about a completely different universe. Stop projecting and just enjoy.
come on, John. air assault into Mordor in Lord of the Rings was out of the question because Mordor had an air defense strategy. the Eye would have seen it coming (pun intended) and been like "oh the ring is on that tiny creature on that eagle" then the Nazgul on the fell beasts would have targeted that one eagle and killed it and/or Frodo, or kill the eagle and frodo falls hundreds of feet to his death. small LRP team was only way to get behind enemy lines without detection.
34:25 “Why didn’t Paul use The Voice at the start of the fight with Feyd Rautha… This was a plot hole.” Not true, WP!!! At least on this point, the author has fewer logic holes than your video defending the use of appendix carry. Let me explain… Paul also had the option of using a psyche implanted trigger word to weaken Feyd during their fight. However, Paul explicitly rejected doing so because of his sense of honor (and perhaps due to his caution of how his use of that manipulation would affect the future paths…. All seemingly leading to mass fanatical slaughter in Paul’s name.). So not a plot hole. Rather, fully addressed by the author! God bless. Thanks for all the great work and encouragement you give.
Thanks for taking the time to outline this John. I had the similar thoughts, my immediate impressIon was that this movie was attacking Christianity, but something rubbed me very much the wrong way about this movie. All my friends told me I was crazy, so its nice to have some validation. Its the same deal with leave the world behind, some very subtle jabs at Christianity to plant a seed of doubt.
Great review, I had sort of sensed the things that bothered you but could not pin it down as clearly as you did. Thanks. Also you should watch and review the indian movie RRR. Great masculin heros!!
As a Christian and someone who has read the books more than once. You should really read the books, it’s hard to understand the true meaning from the superficiality of these movies.
There is a line in part two where I think a Bene Gerserat says there's is a southern part to the planet where only Faith Survives. This is I think where we can still glean that even though they kind of spin the weaves of fate there is still that notion of believing in the transcendent.
I think the Gandalf question is one of self-determination. He may he a Shepherd or a guide, but humanity (or mortals) must win this future for themselves....or fall to greed and lust for power.
I watched the original Dune back in 84 not the edited short version but the long one like over 3 hours or something then a few years ago a guy put a recovered version of on RUclips. It is still better than the short on they made for dvd but might look for it again.
John if you get a chance, there is a youtube channel by comicbookgirl19, that breaks down the book by sections. It was originally a book club, but she uploaded her thoughts on it. I'm currently on the forth Dune book following her reading guide.
Not a fan of the mandatory subtitles. Not sure who those are for, no one is speaking accented or broken English. RUclips has a subtitle feature already, and crucially, they can be toggled on or off.
Nah. RUclips subtitles suck, and some people like having them there for easier following of the dialogue even when we're not HoH and both speakers are speaking clearly in English.
Enjoyed the review. I will have to share and add to the beginning of the comment. The perspective is coming from the emperor's daughter. Similar to royalty and nobility of our world which also holds the three abrahamic religions as slave religions up till the breakaway of the US. The view comes 'plan within plan' ideology when looked at the narrators view in that way it does make sense somewhat of the top 1% of the ruling class as they watch their world change. As for the new age things... Those my brother are not new age most are very old occult symbology and examples of modern day in many regards. Be safe brother keep up the good work
I think it's important that when reading a fictional novel, or going to see a fictional movie to keep it in your mind that it is indeed fiction and a form of entertainment. Don't let the world views of the author, the screenwriter, or the director sway you one way, or another. Just view it as entertainment only and nothing more. There's nothing wrong with deconstructing or dissecting it later, but don't lose sight of the fact that it is fictional and entertaining!
To quote Herbert: "I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: 'May be dangerous to your health.' " Small *spoiler alert*: Paul's Jihad results in 61 billion human beings dying. His Fremen forces sterilize multiple worlds. I think Herbert's point (acknowledging his unfortunate cynicism about religious faith) is we give too much power to charismatic leaders and the more people they lead, the more that can be hurt.
John, the complexity of the Dune universe is incredible diverse and layered. I read all the books multiple times. (Yeah, geeked out in high school) It can't be fully explained in a couple of books or movies. Great content!
"Jessica, You have exploited our legends well, but the very legends that predict you can also destroy you"" Mother Rempala Clearly the legend is Fremond and not BG
Well technically it's an pre Islamic/Arabian undercurrent. With the term Mahdi being used, which means "Guided One". The Fremans actually speak a dialect reminisce of modern day street languages in Afghanistan and Iran, an other regions. And live an "Arab" (albeit pre Islamic) lifestyle in the desert. Very reminiscent of early pagan Arabs. No matter what folks say, there is nothing Christian, Islamic or Jewish in nature of it's influence. Its more of a "god like emperor" influence which was common with pagan Arabs pre Muhammad.
One dune idea I do like, the idea of not letting machines do your thinking for you, we should all expand our minds, and one way of doing this is to try our best to be part of the body of Christ.
Dune is the best one. God Emperor of Dune is the second best one. Majority of the fans feel this way. Paul does not blind himself. He could not see that the enemy would use a Stone Cutter atomic, which then blinds him.
The original Dune 1984 was the best! The sound track was incredible, the weirding modules were bad ass, and we got the beautiful actress Sean Young. The new DUNE movies are trash!
24:18 no he didn’t know Gandalf was a myair. The hobbit was a collection of stories that he would tell his kids and he ended up writing the book. Once it became so well received Tolkien started creating his world of middle earth.
Psyop is a bit much. It's literature. And most literature, especially the good stuff, is a mirror/commentary on us as humans. Be that dangers of religion with Dune or the folly of too much civilization/lack of respect for nature, as with parts of LotR. Tolkien was a master. He had many commentaries in his works.
in the reality of Dune, the Kwisatz Haderach (chosen mesiah) proficy is actually a scientific theory. the Bene Gesserit beleived that they could use selective breeding to create a human mind capable of consistantly and reliably seeing the future. they delivered their theory as a proficy to anyone who would accept it as such for the sake of support, or even power. Paul was close, but not quite there. his son Letto worked out better.
I was surprised no one mentioned that the Mahdi is there an Islamic messiah. The good guy in this film is a Muslim conquering “catholic templar” soldiers
Wait wait wait, how are going to end the video telling us about a book y'all are writing and only give 2 seconds to it, then just move past it and close the video? I need to know more, what kind of book? What's it about? When the heckin heck can I buy it???
For the sake of discussion, and general curiousity based on what I know of Christianity and Pantheism, how is Pantheism any less logical than any religion? I think, in some ways, just from a logic stand point, you could say Pantheism is more logical, assuming I have the correct understanding of Pantheism
I don't think he is trying to subvert religion per say. I believe he took inspiration from the history of religion as a whole. Nothing wrong with that. The background to Dune is extremely important.
According to the Dune lore, the religion in Dune is the union of different religions that evolved into a new religion. It shows a proposition of the evolutions of human society from earth in Dune. I believe it was a union of Islam and Buddhism. There were other type of religious unions in the Dune lore as well. At the end of the day it's just a entertaining piece of fiction.
To answer your question; No, Tolkien did not know Gandalf was a Miar. The Hobbit was written so many years before LotR and the Silmarillion. The wizards of LotR were not sent to take part in the dealings of man. They were sent to influence them. Sauroman was sucked into the power of the One Ring. Look at the parallels of the One Ring representing sin. Many people are influenced by religion and the stories they write. You should be happy that people tie stories and religion together. The reader has to be educated well enough to not be pulled down a detrimental path. It takes a strong mind to understand a strong story. It takes an even stronger will to not act on the influences of any story. Stories are stories, but the word of God is truth.
dude thats the whole point of Dunes story,
Paul becomes a tyrant and later on his son leto literally becomes a "god emperor" ruling for thousands of years destroying billions of people
True, but also saving humanity which would be otherwise destroyed.
As someone already stated Leto became the tyrant very reluctantly and only because it was the ONLY way to prevent the extinction of humanity.
Leto's motivations were complex. He was humankinds greatest teacher.
Leto II also bred immunity from the oracle into humanity.
Thanos?@@branisj
Dune lore is miles deep and miles wide. It can really only be reviewed in its totality. There are large motivational revelations later on that change things.
Geez, I can only imagine their thoughts on Warhammer 40k.
Hmm.
A political system that combines the worst of both the Soviets and the Nazis on the Eastern Front, An Inquisition so powerful and ruthless that it makes Pol Pot look like a jovial church choir leader, a religion so deliberately false and contrary to the Emperor's intent that it must be supported by planetary mass murder and torture...a military that routinely sacrifices millions of its own soldiers and is practicing genocide against every other intelligent species in the Galaxy...and these are the GOOD guys...and what they're doing is completely necessary for the survival of humanity.
I think he would go fetal, weeping inconsolably.
Remember Cadia!
Well it’s definitely a look towards a god figure of a man… so still idolization to a man rather than the higher power. And the disregard for life isn’t exactly Christian lol
As the narrative weaves themes of power, prophecy, and redemption, it prompts reflection on the human condition and our quest for meaning. Reminds me of Proverbs 16:18, "Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall."
John- " I liked Paul"... But you weren't supposed to, or at the very least you were supposed to realize that he is the anti-hero. At least according to Frank Herbert.
Frank Herbert stated that his intention was to undermine the idea of a messiah. He was quite frustrated after the publication of his first book that his audience liked Paul and considered him to be a hero. This was not Herbert's intent.
the rest of his series went double time to undermine the idea that a savior is possible or a good idea. Yes Herbert did use elements of Christian ideology, but Paul and the Freeman religion is based way more on Muhammad and Islam. And the jihad of hate that could not be stopped once it got started.
👏🏻👏🏻
The sand gave it away
@@WallabieMcDee😂
😮 @@WallabieMcDee
Fremen* but yeah
"Makes for a better story" I couldn't help but think, "So the movie can happen". Thanks Ryan George and Pitch Meeting
Paul not using the Voice on Feyd wasn't a plot hole, it's specifically mentioned he needs to do it "honarably" not just for self honor but so that the fight is recognized (He knows the word to say to freeze Feyd in his tracks and chooses not to use it)
100%. And you'd think that 'warrior poets' in a 'warrior poet society' might have a clue about this concept of fighting with spiritual honor, rather than indulging themselves in such a dismissive assumption as 'pLoT hOLe'...
Feyd actually has a built in special "shutdown" word (bad description) that the Bene Gesserit have put in him that his mom tries to get him to use that he fights with possibly using throughout the fight also. The fight on the whole is much deeper in the book (Feyd trying to poison Paul being dishonorable, making Paul fight with his own Honor) but it was a great fight sequence in Part 2 none the less
Everything’s a psyop if you want it to be a psyop.
It’s a fairly complex book series, and it’s not right OR wrong about religion. It’s giving you good and bad story lines for what it could be and represent to a certain group of people.
This latest movie series has been pretty good, but it’s grossly simplistic of its characters and their desires; almost an over the top portrayal.
Exactly... Christianity is almost bettered by Dune by its backseat. OC is a corrupted Christianity, warning against the tolerance the current pope shows, and the islam derivative of the Fremen demonstrate its vulnerability to the fabled charismatic leader.
It's telling that Orange Catholic's are the people who were exterminated.
To address John’s questions at the 34:00 minute mark... There is a construct of screenwriting which propels action, that being: *_maximum conflict equals maximum emotion_*. After all, people watch movies (other than documentaries) to be emotionally moved through entertainment.
Thus, had Paul used _‘the voice’_ to quickly dispatch Feyd-Rautha (played by Austin Butler). The audience would have been denied satisfaction, generated from witnessing Paul physically defeating Feyd; for all intent and purpose, the antagonist. This wasn’t a “plot hole” as Mr. Kone suggests, but rather a purposeful feature.
Be wary of your charismatic leaders.
Be wary of those that would lead, period. Not to say you don't need them, but all those who would be in power must be objectively observed, always. Turns out its not the charismatic ones that have been screwing us over the most, but rather the ones we elected and then forget about for 60 years.
All real men that Fear God... Are the only true leaders, of a self rule republic nation, owned and protected by.. We the People.
That's it. That's the point of the book. A lot of unnecessary defensiveness in this video.
Hey now, in LoTR magic is not the kind that you're looking for John, Gandalf doesn't shoot Fireballs because he's not there to solve people's problems, he's a messenger to help the people fix their problems. And the Eagles would have been taken down and the ring captured if they'd just flown in while Sauron was in full power, he'd have seen them coming for sure. The boat is a better idea, more subtle, but also if they'd taken the ring to Gondor then it would have been taken by Denethor and we'd see Denethor try to overthrow Sauron and in turn become a wraith or the new dark lord.
Exactly. And in the movies Gandalf's magic is all the more glorious when it's rare, like against the Balrog or the beam of light against the dragons on the battlefield outside of the white city. That damned beam chokes me up every time I see that scene, because the dragons are mowing down those suicidally brave knights and they are all dead without Gandalf charging out alone to save them.
Badass comments here
Exactly. And whenever a character chocks too much up to "magic" or "chance", Gandalf reminds them that he had been "sent" and that our fates have been "purposed". Hinting at God himself, not witchcraft or Mother Earth, as the source of Gandalf's power.
34:04 Paul didnt use “the voice” because it was intended to be a fair fight. No shields and no using the voice.
Right. The voice would have been noticed by the witnesses and invalidated Kanly, and therefore Paul's challenge to the Emperor. The Great Houses of the Lansraad would have murdered him for trickery. A fight which was perceived to be fair was the only possible way for him to take the throne and prosecute his jihad.
Thanks for the tip on Harrison’s books, knew that about Dune. Also one of your rifles is on the way from DD at this moment and I can’t wait to hold it. I’m a disabled veteran and am mostly bedridden but I am building myself up so I can get out and shoot. I believe it’s going to be necessary sooner rather than later to protect our loved ones and property hence my purchase of the M4. I’m hoping it will give me the impetus to get out and train as much as possible within my disability to defend us. Your a good man and my wife and I wish you more success in your endeavors. God bless you.
You need to read the books. There's huge swaths of information that is missing from all versions of Dune, and that's just in the first book.
And it really is one of the very best novels of the modern era, of any genre.
I’m still wondering how they will place Paul’s sister into the movie. She should have been in the 2nd movie and been the one to off a main baddie. Before watching I was wondering if they would cgi a toddler that walks around and talks like a grown up but see that didn’t happen and now wondering if she will be a teenager in the next movie to make it easier and not as weird.
While the Dune universe does critique the idea of Messiah and charismatic leaders, ultimately Paul’s son Leto II shepherds humanity on the Golden Path, thus ensuring their survival and showing that the salvation of humanity can only happen through the actions of one, powerful god like figure. So it both critiques and upholds the idea of powerful leaders but extends the critique beyond religion to include government also. So I don’t think saying it undermines a Christian worldview entirely gets at the core of it.
Leto sacrifices hinself for humanity
He becomes god by destroying the human part of himself
He does this for the greatest possible good
Exactly, John and this “guy who knows everything about Dune” don’t seem to have read the later books at all, or at least they don’t understand them.
@@7sunfire7 I love John's content but sadly he has a history of doing this
He does it in some of his older book reviews
Fails to understand the deeper meanings then labels then as anti Christian or new age when they arent
Exactly
Gandalf was able to magically encourage his companions. That’s something.
I like that Leto II is the the real antihero, I always saw Paul as a villain/coward for thrusting what he saw coming onto Leto, even though the worm handled it in spades, it wasn’t truly his burden. Paul skipped out on his family to go beat off in the desert, when he should’ve retained his vitality; ipso facto be a damn man.
But is Leto even Leto? He has all his fathers memories and at times in spice trances thinks he’s Paul. Paul also has seen how it all unfolds
FWIW, JRR Tolkien hated the source material so much that he returned the book even though it was received as a gift. Granted, he was picky, but Herbert's worldview would've been readily apparent to someone like him.
I bought Harrison's books based on John's recommendation
Thank you! I hope you enjoy them!
Man I thought the religious message in this was spot on… more critical today than ever before. Blind following / fanaticism esp. of religious leaders is dangerous
yes, that lesson is true and the rest is based on misunderstanding.
One of the problems of being “The Chosen One” in fiction is it can give the main character plot armor. Or the suspicion of plot armor. A character, even as a “Chosen One,” has to be a relatable character for audiences to sympathize with. Nobody cares about a character that flexes “I’m The Chosen One.” But everyone can relate to a character, no matter how formidable, whose response to being told he’s The Chosen One is “WTF is everyone talking about?”
If the bene gesserits took the blue liquid before creating that prophecy, it could be argued that they were only instruments of God in creating that "golden path". They just took credit for it within their own views. They didnt create the prophecy out of their own idea, they created the prophecy after being shown it as the ideal pathway to take
I had the same observation about Anakin… the kid who was born without a father needing to conceive him… he was conceived by ‘the force” in the movie. I really didn’t like that parallel when I watched Star Wars.
If it helps, Anakin was originally supposed to be created through the will of the dark side. The Force rebelled and instead used his creation as a tool to bring balance to the Force.
Read (or listen to, the audiobooks are fantastic) "Darth Plagueis" if you're interested enough in learning the canon behind Anakin's conception. He was literally created by Plagueis and Sidious through the Force.
I’d highly recommend reading the first 4 books and then re doing a video of what you think of dune and Paul as a whole. The movie is only a small tip of the iceberg of what is truly going on and what the story is about.
If you wanna listen to some videos about dune and summaries of the books check out Quinn’s ideas channel on here.
Dont care about the books we are talking about the movies
You are completely misunderstanding what kind of character Gandulf is on multiple levels.
They also cut out that the freemen respected the sarducar.
They would kill them and be happy it was such a good fight
When You said there’s flaws in lord of the rings, my first thought was “you shut your mouth. Your right but shut your mouth”😂
It was hard to say.
This was great. Thanks for your insight. Also read the comments, also good input and points of view.
Love your content and message and have been watching you for a couple years. This is the first time I’ve felt put off by what you’ve published. Comes across defensive and paranoid, brother. I’ve read the Dune series a few times and just don’t see the connections you’ve made here on the negative (psy-ops) side. I was raised and am a Christian and this felt like your were reaching . Also your expert was not an expert. He was incorrect on a lot of facts within the books.
I will come back to this once I've watched part 2.
Great show. Thank you. BTW... LoTR is SUPPOSED TO BE a "low magic" world. Otherwise, it simply runs away with the storyline.
With respect, you have completely misunderstood Dune, and neither of you have read the books closely enough to grasp its actual philosophical roots and themes.
The power of the Kwisatz Haderach is not magical or spiritual. It is a tool for prediction like the thought experiment of Pierre Laplace’s demon. I.e. if a demon existed that could know the past position and current trajectory of every atom in the universe, it could predict the future with a high degree of accuracy. The water of life grants a person access to the memories of their ancestors. Only a male, having X and Y chromosomes, can inherit the male “other memory” as well as the female. The all-female Bene Gesserit can only access the female other memory. Until Paul-a male bred through eugenics and societal manipulation- no male could survive the water of life; he is the first successful Kwisatz Haderach.
Because he can see his ancestors’ past lives and memories, he is able to make very accurate predictions about human and societal behavior, allowing him to guide humanity along paths of his own choosing. Eventually, he meddles so much in the future that he is boxed in between making choices where everyone he loves dies, or indirectly causing the mass extinction of humanity. He is literally stated to be a false God, and later, in repentance for his acts, calls his own followers idolaters for worshiping him, a mere man. In the later books in the series, his actions have disastrous consequences. He and his descendants spend millennia intentionally trying to un-deify him. They also work to breed humans who cannot be seen by prescience and scatter humanity far and wide enough across space that no tyrannical force could ever enslave or destroy all of humanity.
You, as a professing Christian of orthodox theological beliefs, would certainly call something like Mormonism a heresy or a blasphemy, which is the character that Frank Herbert colors the Fremen prophecies with, as they were planted by the Bene Gesserit in order to give potential future allies a hiding place on Arrakis. Your Christian Faith necessitates that you literally believe that every non-Christian religious prophecy in human history was false, so I have no idea how you can’t get on board with the idea of being careful with charismatic leaders who make mystical claims. The point is that the BG plan BACKFIRED massively in that Paul was able to become prescient a generation too early and gain control over the Fremen, the deadliest fighting force in the galaxy.
The entire essence of Dune is a person- who tried to become a god- meddled with powers beyond his understanding, nearly destroyed humanity, and was brought to personal tragedy and ruin because of it. There’s nothing pro-pantheistic about the characterization of Paul’s abilities at all. He is literally called the Mahdi, which is the contemporary Islamic word for their prophesied messiah, who you, a Christian, openly claim to be a FALSE messiah from a FALSE prophecy. Dune is not some backhanded, sneaky assault on Christianity dude.
Yeah I figured all that out when I was like 14 back in 1980......😮😅
You should learn how to talk to women
Wow - best comment on this entire page. Thank you for writing that all out.
You should learn how to talk to women
This.
1) the voice although used is technically one of the BG secrets and to maintain power they guard those secrets so using it in a public fight might not be a good idea if you want to keep using it afterwards without too much fuss and 2) Fighting to end a dispute was a valid way to settle something and since it is sort of a contract I don't think outright cheating would go over well, I suppose you would have to hope no one realized you used some kind of magic or trick (voice) and he just decided to kill himself randomly.
Speaking of psy ops, check out Cordwainer Smith (Paul Linebarger)! 😀He's one of my all-time favorite scifi writers. Smith was a very gifted and talented person in general. He was fluent in six languages in his teens. He received his PhD in political science from Johns Hopkins at age 23. He literally wrote the book on psychological warfare which was used by the military at the time. He was a professor at Johns Hopkins. He had close connections to the democratic forces in China; he was the the godson of Sun Yat-sen and a close confidant of Chiang Kai-shek. He did all this while dodging KGB agents and other communists. He wrote about things that virtually no one else in the Golden Age of science fiction wrote about. After he became a Christian, he rewrote much of his scifi to fall in line with Christianity, which in his case significantly improved his overall literary vision. Contrary to many if not most scifi writers at the time, Smith didn't see humanity's brightest future in biological and/or technological innovation and evolution. Rather he saw humanity best as God created humanity to be. This is a similar lesson to the film Gattaca. In any case, it's too bad Cordwainer Smith isn't better known, but he is a brilliant scifi writer with a unique vision especially for his time.
It's much less Christian in nature and more Islamic in nature, especially considering the spice that the galaxy is dependent on is like a stand in for oil.
Also the prophecy did come from someone in star wars if you didn't know that
How do I get a response from support on an issue with a sling I purchased? I reached out for help but no response
me too, terrible CS.
That cheap method of tying loose ends together is called "deus ex machina," god from a machine. The ancient Greeks used to lower a god by pulley onto the stage to resolve plot holes. At least when I was in college half a century ago, it was regarded as a sub-par literary device, spoken of with mild derision.
This is the kind of talk that gives ppl a bad taste when it comes to Christianity. Frank Herberts religious views are completely unknown. As a Christian myself, I believe assuming malice against Christians by Frank is misguided and/or obtuse. He wanted to tell a science fiction story about a completely different universe. Stop projecting and just enjoy.
come on, John. air assault into Mordor in Lord of the Rings was out of the question because Mordor had an air defense strategy. the Eye would have seen it coming (pun intended) and been like "oh the ring is on that tiny creature on that eagle" then the Nazgul on the fell beasts would have targeted that one eagle and killed it and/or Frodo, or kill the eagle and frodo falls hundreds of feet to his death.
small LRP team was only way to get behind enemy lines without detection.
34:25 “Why didn’t Paul use The Voice at the start of the fight with Feyd Rautha… This was a plot hole.” Not true, WP!!! At least on this point, the author has fewer logic holes than your video defending the use of appendix carry. Let me explain…
Paul also had the option of using a psyche implanted trigger word to weaken Feyd during their fight. However, Paul explicitly rejected doing so because of his sense of honor (and perhaps due to his caution of how his use of that manipulation would affect the future paths…. All seemingly leading to mass fanatical slaughter in Paul’s name.).
So not a plot hole. Rather, fully addressed by the author!
God bless. Thanks for all the great work and encouragement you give.
Warrior Poet needs to read the books...
Thanks for taking the time to outline this John. I had the similar thoughts, my immediate impressIon was that this movie was attacking Christianity, but something rubbed me very much the wrong way about this movie. All my friends told me I was crazy, so its nice to have some validation. Its the same deal with leave the world behind, some very subtle jabs at Christianity to plant a seed of doubt.
I'm half way through book 3.
Good stuff. Better than the films and they are really great
Paul Didn't blind himself- an atomic device was detonated near him which destroyed his eyes.
I knew this comment was coming. An omniscient being that allows anything to happen to him would in effect be doing it to himself.
Stoneburner
@@dimo4499 "J-rays"! I remember that from reading the books 20 years ago lol
While he may not have blinged himself, he did vajazzle himself.
The How It Should Have Ended universe solved the Mordor problem with the Eagles
RUclips strategic ad-sabotage right as John asks his first question.
Paul was blinded by a Stone Burner nuke in an assassination attempt. He does eventually wind up wandering the desert, as per Fremen custom.
Great review, I had sort of sensed the things that bothered you but could not pin it down as clearly as you did. Thanks.
Also you should watch and review the indian movie RRR. Great masculin heros!!
I read the books years ago and the movies are (close enough) to what I remember. Good, interesting movie.
As a Christian and someone who has read the books more than once. You should really read the books, it’s hard to understand the true meaning from the superficiality of these movies.
There is a line in part two where I think a Bene Gerserat says there's is a southern part to the planet where only Faith Survives. This is I think where we can still glean that even though they kind of spin the weaves of fate there is still that notion of believing in the transcendent.
I think the Gandalf question is one of self-determination. He may he a Shepherd or a guide, but humanity (or mortals) must win this future for themselves....or fall to greed and lust for power.
I watched the original Dune back in 84 not the edited short version but the long one like over 3 hours or something then a few years ago a guy put a recovered version of on RUclips. It is still better than the short on they made for dvd but might look for it again.
John if you get a chance, there is a youtube channel by comicbookgirl19, that breaks down the book by sections. It was originally a book club, but she uploaded her thoughts on it. I'm currently on the forth Dune book following her reading guide.
Not a fan of the mandatory subtitles. Not sure who those are for, no one is speaking accented or broken English. RUclips has a subtitle feature already, and crucially, they can be toggled on or off.
I absolutely agree!
trying to post to tiktok, monetizing to the max.
Nah. RUclips subtitles suck, and some people like having them there for easier following of the dialogue even when we're not HoH and both speakers are speaking clearly in English.
Dune’s Paul is a tragic story. The next movie and book, Dune Messiah nearly close the arch. Herbert wrote it to highlight anti-hero.
Read books.
Enjoyed the review. I will have to share and add to the beginning of the comment. The perspective is coming from the emperor's daughter. Similar to royalty and nobility of our world which also holds the three abrahamic religions as slave religions up till the breakaway of the US. The view comes 'plan within plan' ideology when looked at the narrators view in that way it does make sense somewhat of the top 1% of the ruling class as they watch their world change.
As for the new age things... Those my brother are not new age most are very old occult symbology and examples of modern day in many regards.
Be safe brother keep up the good work
Which dune movie is better the 1984 old one or the new one?
I think it's important that when reading a fictional novel, or going to see a fictional movie to keep it in your mind that it is indeed fiction and a form of entertainment. Don't let the world views of the author, the screenwriter, or the director sway you one way, or another. Just view it as entertainment only and nothing more. There's nothing wrong with deconstructing or dissecting it later, but don't lose sight of the fact that it is fictional and entertaining!
I LOVED THIS
2 points
1: read the damn book
2: understand the history of the Jesuits
understanding dune will come after
To quote Herbert: "I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: 'May be dangerous to your health.' " Small *spoiler alert*: Paul's Jihad results in 61 billion human beings dying. His Fremen forces sterilize multiple worlds. I think Herbert's point (acknowledging his unfortunate cynicism about religious faith) is we give too much power to charismatic leaders and the more people they lead, the more that can be hurt.
Thanks for pointing out that starwars is pantheistic at its core. So many Christians miss this.
You had me at Psyop. 😂
Why haven’t you reviewed Warhorse one yet?
I absolutely fucking hate hard coded closed captioning.
💯
John, the complexity of the Dune universe is incredible diverse and layered. I read all the books multiple times. (Yeah, geeked out in high school) It can't be fully explained in a couple of books or movies. Great content!
Love the conversations when you two teamup! Thanks for all of the wisdom.
"Jessica, You have exploited our legends well, but the very legends that predict you can also destroy you"" Mother Rempala Clearly the legend is Fremond and not BG
Well technically it's an pre Islamic/Arabian undercurrent. With the term Mahdi being used, which means "Guided One". The Fremans actually speak a dialect reminisce of modern day street languages in Afghanistan and Iran, an other regions. And live an "Arab" (albeit pre Islamic) lifestyle in the desert. Very reminiscent of early pagan Arabs. No matter what folks say, there is nothing Christian, Islamic or Jewish in nature of it's influence. Its more of a "god like emperor" influence which was common with pagan Arabs pre Muhammad.
Jackson did pretty well, but he did Faramir dirty, making him far less noble than in the book.
One dune idea I do like, the idea of not letting machines do your thinking for you, we should all expand our minds, and one way of doing this is to try our best to be part of the body of Christ.
Thanks for standing firm in the faith as you produce excellent content. God bless your family John from North Idaho.
Heinlein had written more than a dozen novels before Herbert wrote Dune. If anyone is the grandfather of Science Fiction, it's RAH.
John screams freedom but deletes negative comments... such a grifting clown
Yet here is your comment
cant catch them all i suppose, because my other comments on this channel are no where to be found...@@WallabieMcDee
You're overthinking this.
Yes i see the “ripoff” of Christianity in alot of movies like this and the “rebranding” into something its not.. great way to put it john 👍
As a courtesy to my wife I didn’t snore for the portion of the film that I was asleep. Otherwise, thought it looked cool, I guess.
You should do a movie review with administrative results
Saga ,there's 3 there should still be another part ,I haven't watch part 2 yet
Please do the video again but without the subtitles.
Dune is the best one. God Emperor of Dune is the second best one. Majority of the fans feel this way.
Paul does not blind himself. He could not see that the enemy would use a Stone Cutter atomic, which then blinds him.
The original Dune 1984 was the best! The sound track was incredible, the weirding modules were bad ass, and we got the beautiful actress Sean Young. The new DUNE movies are trash!
24:18 no he didn’t know Gandalf was a myair. The hobbit was a collection of stories that he would tell his kids and he ended up writing the book. Once it became so well received Tolkien started creating his world of middle earth.
Psyop is a bit much. It's literature. And most literature, especially the good stuff, is a mirror/commentary on us as humans. Be that dangers of religion with Dune or the folly of too much civilization/lack of respect for nature, as with parts of LotR. Tolkien was a master. He had many commentaries in his works.
Nice work fellas👍
Dude is overthinking it
in the reality of Dune, the Kwisatz Haderach (chosen mesiah) proficy is actually a scientific theory. the Bene Gesserit beleived that they could use selective breeding to create a human mind capable of consistantly and reliably seeing the future. they delivered their theory as a proficy to anyone who would accept it as such for the sake of support, or even power. Paul was close, but not quite there. his son Letto worked out better.
I was surprised no one mentioned that the Mahdi is there an Islamic messiah. The good guy in this film is a Muslim conquering “catholic templar” soldiers
In the books, I don’t remember them being called Fundamentalists. The Northern Fremen were not a thing in the book.
You can say it's religious, but at the end of the day they had that popcorn bucket
Wait wait wait, how are going to end the video telling us about a book y'all are writing and only give 2 seconds to it, then just move past it and close the video? I need to know more, what kind of book? What's it about? When the heckin heck can I buy it???
For the sake of discussion, and general curiousity based on what I know of Christianity and Pantheism, how is Pantheism any less logical than any religion? I think, in some ways, just from a logic stand point, you could say Pantheism is more logical, assuming I have the correct understanding of Pantheism
I don't think he is trying to subvert religion per say. I believe he took inspiration from the history of religion as a whole. Nothing wrong with that. The background to Dune is extremely important.
How did john lovell of all people talk for 35 mins and not mention the weapons on the wall once
sorry, king of science fiction is robert heinlein. go read his stuff and youll see most everything in the dune series in heinleins books.
According to the Dune lore, the religion in Dune is the union of different religions that evolved into a new religion. It shows a proposition of the evolutions of human society from earth in Dune. I believe it was a union of Islam and Buddhism. There were other type of religious unions in the Dune lore as well. At the end of the day it's just a entertaining piece of fiction.
I agree Herbert lost it after the first book Dune. He went off the deep end.
7th day Adventist are the fundamentals they actually followed the whole word of God
To answer your question; No, Tolkien did not know Gandalf was a Miar. The Hobbit was written so many years before LotR and the Silmarillion. The wizards of LotR were not sent to take part in the dealings of man. They were sent to influence them. Sauroman was sucked into the power of the One Ring. Look at the parallels of the One Ring representing sin. Many people are influenced by religion and the stories they write. You should be happy that people tie stories and religion together. The reader has to be educated well enough to not be pulled down a detrimental path. It takes a strong mind to understand a strong story. It takes an even stronger will to not act on the influences of any story. Stories are stories, but the word of God is truth.