A response to the vulger, vindictive internet assualts on our Metropolitan and the Holy Synod, and other subjects, by anti-Christian bloggers within the Orthodox Church
It does not matter whether one agrees with him or not, likes him or not: he IS the Metropolitan, and one needs to have respect for that office, and human respect for the one who holds it. Vulgarity, slanders, falsehoods and devious lies permeate the internet and there is no excuse for it.
"innocent until proven guilty" was a founding ideal for the united states (as a constitutional republic). unfortunately, we've culturally disowned it in favour of us sitting on our own judgement seats. L,hm+
Over my lifetime--I am 66--I joined a number of churches in my search for God and for some place to peacefully and seriously engage in God-talk. Each time, I was dissapointed at how much time each of the churches I chose spent in what seemed to me arcane arguments over theologies or worship patterns that meant almost nothing to me. (cont)
@BorislavX His Beatitude is indeed wonderful! He is my spiritual father! I am a new convert to Orthodoxy. I certainly did not join the OCA thinking it would be perfect or 'paradise'. The Church is divine, and those who are called to serve her as bishops are inevitably imperfect; they are human, after all. The challenge is to approach all disagreements not merely in conciliarity, but in a true Christian spirit of repentance, love for the other,and an emphasis on the centrality of our shared faith
@BorislavX I'm from the United States (studying on exchange in Scotland) and I just want to reiterate that Canada is also a representative parliamentary democracy with an elected prime minister, an appointed Governor-General representing the Queen for a set term, and Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's monarch with ceremonial duties and various constitutional obligations as the symbolic sovereign. She is also the monarch of the other Commonwealth nations.
I cannot do anything else, but to pray, that the OCA's situation would clear up, and all the charges would be found to be false, and the accusers be put to shame. But perhaps all of this is God's way in His providence to show the egoistic darkness in the hearts of some people. "For though in the sight of men they were punished, their hope is full of immortality. Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself"
There are ways for the Holy Synods of all Orthodox jurisdictions to befriend and demand only the best of communication possibilities via the Internet, such as blogs and social media. The OCA Holy Synod has been to date both sufficiently disclosing as well as the most forthcoming about discussions in the Holy Synod sessions via Internet announcements when compared with other Orthodox jurisdictions' announcements on the Web. Holy Synods must never portray their actions as "democratic."
I agree with you and the Canadian law your Grace. I love the Metropolitan and will stand by him and His word from Christ. anthony, a sinner POB 5133 Nikolaevsk, Alask99556 USA
An unwritten policy of many USA Christian jurisdictions--Orthodox, RC, Anglican and others--has been deafening silence and removal of both material and spiritual support from every Church official and servant as soon as the police and/or prosecuting attorney release news that an investigation and/or charges have been filed against a defendant accused of criminal sexual improprieties. I have visited, in the past, five RC priests and one Orthodox catechist who were rebuffed when requesting help.
@galor4 This is what we are all praying about here. We are not judging innocence or guilt; only the civil courts can do that, and preferably with a jury. We do love Archbishop Seraphim, and most of the OCA faithful in Canada do. We are not ashamed that we love him as a warm, loving human being who has given so much of himself to serve, while living on the edge of personal poverty. He is presumed innocent unless proved otherwise in a court of law.
Amen to all three gifts, Vladyka (I sincerely hope I said that correctly) Though I would add another--the right to be judged by a jury of one's peers, and to face one's accusers in court. I have never met Metropolitan Jonah, but I have heard him speak on AFR, and I respect him. I hope sincerely that this all comes to a just conclusion, and God bless the Orthodox Church.
Christians are to uphold not only democratic ideals Vladika Lazar mentions, but the highest law our High Priest gave us - the law of LOVE! If we are to keep this commandment, how can we gossip, verbally attack and try to destroy another human being? Help one another to straighten our ways is what we're called to do. Thirst and hunger after righteousness, rather than rage against the one who's accused of something. Seek truth, not revenge! Children understand this, why not adults who call themse
I have encountered the "Pokrov" website that Vladika mentions in this video though, about a year ago. This was when I was looking for the website of the Russian Orthodox Church in Manchester, England which is the parish of the Holy Protection, or Pokrov.
The Holy Synod is the Court of Law in within the Jurisdiction. It is for them to make a resolution, as they appear to have done, but the speculation and sometimes ugly things that have been said against Met. Jonah online are inexcusable. He is NOT and evil person.
@BorislavX I cannot imagine what people hope to accomplish by making personal, public attacks againt him. It is so destructive to the spirit of the OCA.
@ioannismiami Truly. And it is up to the Holy Synod itself to resolve these issues, but interlocutors must become aware that there are reasons, some of them legal others canonical, why the sort of total disclosure that they are demanding are not possible. Moreover, some of the problems that are being presented online could as well be presented without such vulgar attacks on individuals.
@allsaintsmonastery My intent in having brought up the issues of Holy Synod communications with the Orthodox faithful --an issue about which you and I agree, Valdyka-- had been to focus attention on this source or domain of unnecessary and often exaggerated criticisms of HB Jonah by the same [unnamed] interlocutors during the past 24 months. Any social medium employed by Orthodox Christians, such as a blog, should set a high bar for discourse and information exchange.
In America the government is required to provide a defence attorney when the accused cannot provide their own. Is this not the case in Canada? Perhaps ignorance in this area this explains some of the bloggers' criticism, though he is your beloved archpastory and this should trump all; no wonder you would want to support him! I find the anti-Jonah and anti-Seraphim bloggers to be un-Christian and unloving in their nature.
@allsaintsmonastery I have just read one of the articles on the website in question regarding this particular case and I can say that I not impressed by what they are trying to pass for Journalism.
@greglee20 It does not matter what the issues are. He is our Metropolitan, and as long as he hold that office, he is our leader, and we owe him our respect and support. If anyone has a matter worthy of merit, they may take it to the Holy Synod, but condemning and trying to undermine him by public is unacceptable and antiChristian.
Then maybe the good abbot would refrain in future from making rude comments, slanders and attacks upon the Chief High Priest of Holy Mother Church, the Christ ordained rock foundation, the holy pontiff of rome! that would be practising what he preaches!
@MapleAnglican Part of the matter is. There are accusations that have had sufficient merit to warrant a court hearing. The issue, however, is that Melanie and her partner at Pokrov.org were irrationally enraged that, when Canadians discovered that the man did not have enough money for an attorney and legal defence, we raised money to pay for his attorney. No was is judging guilt or innocence, only responding to the principle that no Canadian should appear before the bar without a barrister.
@ioannismiami Ianni: I have no complaints at all about the Holy Synod and its communications. There are often things that simply cannot be discussed publicly for legal or other reasons. The problem is with the Bloggers that rip the hierarchs to pieces for their own egoistic and self-worshipping reasons. It is really evil to judge a person with sly, devious allusions about whom they are acquintances, or even friends, with, or about whom they have been associated with.
@galor4 Also, I must point out that in America, which shares the same English legal heritage as Canada, one is likewise innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law. Individuals can pass judgement, even foolishly, but they do not represent our legal system; they just represent angry individuals. I personally don't know what to think about Seraphim's case, but frankly that isn't for me to decide. All I know is that he is beloved by all of Canada and pray for him and his salvation.
@galor4 Barabra Drezhlo could as well be known as "Joe-sephin McArthy." What shoked us was the hysterical way in which Pokrov.org attached the Canadian people for wanting to proved for the legal defence of a Canadian citizen about to go before the bar. No one is taking a judgment. Barbara would like for us to form a lynch mob, which we are not going to do. We will certainly accept the judgment of the courts, but we will not make a judgment until they do.
@MapleAnglican The astonishing rage of the Pokrov.org people to this simple act of democratic practice shocked and horrified many of us. They were no more than a lynch mob who would even have denied the accused his day in court, somewhat like the Soviet Union. I am still shocked and dismayed at the cruel, malicious and anti-democratic attitude of the Pokrov.org folks. They went from being a source for protecting children in the Church to being an evil and vindictive gossip column who wanted
@MusingsFromTheJohn cont 3 Truthfully, I found more mean thoughts and words and actions directed at ministers, priests and fellow pew sitters in churches than I did in any of the other organizations I worked with or played with. There is something wrong about that in a religion based on the teachings of Jesus. Something really wrong. Sorry, I really don't mean any disrepect. Just airing a concern.
@allsaintsmonastery And in eternal matters God and more specifically Christ will decide? If the situation is as you say, then I do agree it is right to gather money on behalf of someone, to enable them to defend themselves in court, and I wish all of you the best of luck to that end!
@cactussong If you are talking about the Ecumenical Patriarch, I think he is a great leader, not only for the Church, but for the world. But Christ Himself is the Great High Priest of the Church. I don't know if you have someone else in mind; perhaps you do not accept Christ as the great High Priest of the Church????
@cuttlefisch Once upon a time Pokrov.org served a valuable purpose, but then they became nothing more than a gossip column, commenting harshly and brutally on things they had no actual knowledge about. Then, they became a lynchmob.
Respond to this video... Ah, I see you are talking about the Pope. He is not the High Priest of the Church, Jesus Christ is; it is time that all Christians admited that Jesus Christ is the great High Priest and Shepherd of our Souls, not the Bishop of Rome.
@cactussong You must surely realise that the Bishop of Rome is quite meaningless except to most Roman Catholics. He means nothing to us. Jesus Christ is our High Priest, and no man stand between us and our Lord Jesus Christ.
@MusingsFromTheJohn cont 2 I found as always more time was spent on institutional or bureacratic wranglings than on being a place where one actively sought God. I now belong to those who call themselves "spritual but not religious". Why am I sharing all of this with you? (I am not sure how I should address you) Because I see in the ugliness of the conflicts you briefly outlined what I found so disheartening in so many churches (cont)
@MapleAnglican It is really just malicius hate propaganda the one by a mad-woman, the other by a group that are zealous without understanding or wisdom.
Have you heard this individual's homilies? Just pick a random one on youtube and start listening from any given moment. And afterwards, just compare it with any of the sermons of pastor Shapovalov from Seattle (they go with English translation). Or you may listen to prophet John Paul Jackson (of blessed memory), again you can start wherever you would like to. You will see a huge difference. Jonah’s “preaching” is like that of a five-year-old child. It is absolutely of no value! The point is not that he sinned (I do not care what this guy committed, nor am I going to research it); the point is that people of such “spiritual level” must not belong to church hierarchy. By the way, the actual metropolitan is not any better.
The Metropolitan was slow to act. I suggest you remove this video. The case against Storheim has been decided. I agree with some parts of your video, but it is a stain on Orthodoxy to suggest the Metropolitan acted correctly. The right thing to do would have been to suspend Storheim with pay upon finding out the complaint against him. The Metropolitan erred. Why keep this posting when all the facts are known? Chest thumping is the only reason and as a monk - it is not done. The rest of your points about a defense, etc. are valid. Furthermore, there is no reason for you to respond to Drehzlo-none. This is not the type of video that promotes Christ.
A major duty of the Court systems is to protect minorities against the tyranny of the majority.
Thank you, I had the pleasure of meeting him several times and he was very kind.
It does not matter whether one agrees with him or not, likes him or not: he IS the Metropolitan, and one needs to have respect for that office, and human respect for the one who holds it. Vulgarity, slanders, falsehoods and devious lies permeate the internet and there is no excuse for it.
"innocent until proven guilty" was a founding ideal for the united states (as a constitutional republic). unfortunately, we've culturally disowned it in favour of us sitting on our own judgement seats. L,hm+
Over my lifetime--I am 66--I joined a number of churches in my search for God and for some place to peacefully and seriously engage in God-talk. Each time, I was dissapointed at how much time each of the churches I chose spent in what seemed to me arcane arguments over theologies or worship patterns that meant almost nothing to me. (cont)
@BorislavX His Beatitude is indeed wonderful! He is my spiritual father! I am a new convert to Orthodoxy. I certainly did not join the OCA thinking it would be perfect or 'paradise'. The Church is divine, and those who are called to serve her as bishops are inevitably imperfect; they are human, after all. The challenge is to approach all disagreements not merely in conciliarity, but in a true Christian spirit of repentance, love for the other,and an emphasis on the centrality of our shared faith
@BorislavX I'm from the United States (studying on exchange in Scotland) and I just want to reiterate that Canada is also a representative parliamentary democracy with an elected prime minister, an appointed Governor-General representing the Queen for a set term, and Queen Elizabeth II is Canada's monarch with ceremonial duties and various constitutional obligations as the symbolic sovereign. She is also the monarch of the other Commonwealth nations.
I cannot do anything else, but to pray, that the OCA's situation would clear up, and all the charges would be found to be false, and the accusers be put to shame. But perhaps all of this is God's way in His providence to show the egoistic darkness in the hearts of some people.
"For though in the sight of men they were punished, their hope is full of immortality. Having been disciplined a little, they will receive great good, because God tested them and found them worthy of himself"
There are ways for the Holy Synods of all Orthodox jurisdictions to befriend and demand only the best of communication possibilities via the Internet, such as blogs and social media. The OCA Holy Synod has been to date both sufficiently disclosing as well as the most forthcoming about discussions in the Holy Synod sessions via Internet announcements when compared with other Orthodox jurisdictions' announcements on the Web. Holy Synods must never portray their actions as "democratic."
I agree with you and the Canadian law your Grace. I love the Metropolitan and will stand by him and His word from Christ.
anthony,
a sinner
POB 5133
Nikolaevsk, Alask99556
USA
An unwritten policy of many USA Christian jurisdictions--Orthodox, RC, Anglican and others--has been deafening silence and removal of both material and spiritual support from every Church official and servant as soon as the police and/or prosecuting attorney release news that an investigation and/or charges have been filed against a defendant accused of criminal sexual improprieties. I have visited, in the past, five RC priests and one Orthodox catechist who were rebuffed when requesting help.
@galor4 This is what we are all praying about here. We are not judging innocence or guilt; only the civil courts can do that, and preferably with a jury. We do love Archbishop Seraphim, and most of the OCA faithful in Canada do. We are not ashamed that we love him as a warm, loving human being who has given so much of himself to serve, while living on the edge of personal poverty. He is presumed innocent unless proved otherwise in a court of law.
Amen to all three gifts, Vladyka (I sincerely hope I said that correctly) Though I would add another--the right to be judged by a jury of one's peers, and to face one's accusers in court. I have never met Metropolitan Jonah, but I have heard him speak on AFR, and I respect him. I hope sincerely that this all comes to a just conclusion, and God bless the Orthodox Church.
Christians are to uphold not only democratic ideals Vladika Lazar mentions, but the highest law our High Priest gave us - the law of LOVE! If we are to keep this commandment, how can we gossip, verbally attack and try to destroy another human being? Help one another to straighten our ways is what we're called to do. Thirst and hunger after righteousness, rather than rage against the one who's accused of something. Seek truth, not revenge! Children understand this, why not adults who call themse
I have encountered the "Pokrov" website that Vladika mentions in this video though, about a year ago. This was when I was looking for the website of the Russian Orthodox Church in Manchester, England which is the parish of the Holy Protection, or Pokrov.
The Holy Synod is the Court of Law in within the Jurisdiction. It is for them to make a resolution, as they appear to have done, but the speculation and sometimes ugly things that have been said against Met. Jonah online are inexcusable. He is NOT and evil person.
The ugly things you have said against the Blessed Fr. Seraphim Rose are inexcusable as well!
absolutely
@BorislavX I cannot imagine what people hope to accomplish by making personal, public attacks againt him. It is so destructive to the spirit of the OCA.
@ioannismiami Truly. And it is up to the Holy Synod itself to resolve these issues, but interlocutors must become aware that there are reasons, some of them legal others canonical, why the sort of total disclosure that they are demanding are not possible. Moreover, some of the problems that are being presented online could as well be presented without such vulgar attacks on individuals.
@allsaintsmonastery My intent in having brought up the issues of Holy Synod communications with the Orthodox faithful --an issue about which you and I agree, Valdyka-- had been to focus attention on this source or domain of unnecessary and often exaggerated criticisms of HB Jonah by the same [unnamed] interlocutors during the past 24 months. Any social medium employed by Orthodox Christians, such as a blog, should set a high bar for discourse and information exchange.
In America the government is required to provide a defence attorney when the accused cannot provide their own. Is this not the case in Canada? Perhaps ignorance in this area this explains some of the bloggers' criticism, though he is your beloved archpastory and this should trump all; no wonder you would want to support him! I find the anti-Jonah and anti-Seraphim bloggers to be un-Christian and unloving in their nature.
Same
@allsaintsmonastery I have just read one of the articles on the website in question regarding this particular case and I can say that I not impressed by what they are trying to pass for Journalism.
@allsaintsmonastery I very much agree
I don't believe in democracy, however. I'm afraid, there are very few things I believe in right now.
@greglee20 It does not matter what the issues are. He is our Metropolitan, and as long as he hold that office, he is our leader, and we owe him our respect and support. If anyone has a matter worthy of merit, they may take it to the Holy Synod, but condemning and trying to undermine him by public is unacceptable and antiChristian.
Then maybe the good abbot would refrain in future from making rude comments, slanders and attacks upon the Chief High Priest of Holy Mother Church, the Christ ordained rock foundation, the holy pontiff of rome! that would be practising what he preaches!
@MusingsFromTheJohn With this, I sorryfully must agree. I cannot refute this, nor would I try to make up sophistic arguments to defend this behavour.
@MapleAnglican Part of the matter is. There are accusations that have had sufficient merit to warrant a court hearing. The issue, however, is that Melanie and her partner at Pokrov.org were irrationally enraged that, when Canadians discovered that the man did not have enough money for an attorney and legal defence, we raised money to pay for his attorney. No was is judging guilt or innocence, only responding to the principle that no Canadian should appear before the bar without a barrister.
Vladika, is there anywhere that someone from the internet could contribute to Vladika Seraphim's defense? Thank you.
@ioannismiami Ianni: I have no complaints at all about the Holy Synod and its communications. There are often things that simply cannot be discussed publicly for legal or other reasons. The problem is with the Bloggers that rip the hierarchs to pieces for their own egoistic and self-worshipping reasons. It is really evil to judge a person with sly, devious allusions about whom they are acquintances, or even friends, with, or about whom they have been associated with.
@psevdhome In matters of civil jurisdiction, the courts will decide. In matters of ecclesiatical jurisdiction, the Holy Synod will decide.
@galor4 Also, I must point out that in America, which shares the same English legal heritage as Canada, one is likewise innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law. Individuals can pass judgement, even foolishly, but they do not represent our legal system; they just represent angry individuals. I personally don't know what to think about Seraphim's case, but frankly that isn't for me to decide. All I know is that he is beloved by all of Canada and pray for him and his salvation.
Is this in reference to the accusations against Archbishop Seraphim?
@galor4 Barabra Drezhlo could as well be known as "Joe-sephin McArthy." What shoked us was the hysterical way in which Pokrov.org attached the Canadian people for wanting to proved for the legal defence of a Canadian citizen about to go before the bar. No one is taking a judgment. Barbara would like for us to form a lynch mob, which we are not going to do. We will certainly accept the judgment of the courts, but we will not make a judgment until they do.
@MapleAnglican The astonishing rage of the Pokrov.org people to this simple act of democratic practice shocked and horrified many of us. They were no more than a lynch mob who would even have denied the accused his day in court, somewhat like the Soviet Union. I am still shocked and dismayed at the cruel, malicious and anti-democratic attitude of the Pokrov.org folks. They went from being a source for protecting children in the Church to being an evil and vindictive gossip column who wanted
What has the Metropolitan supposedly done anyway?
@MusingsFromTheJohn
cont 3
Truthfully, I found more mean thoughts and words and actions directed at ministers, priests and fellow pew sitters in churches than I did in any of the other organizations I worked with or played with. There is something wrong about that in a religion based on the teachings of Jesus. Something really wrong. Sorry, I really don't mean any disrepect. Just airing a concern.
What are some of the issues people have with Met. Jonah
@allsaintsmonastery And in eternal matters God and more specifically Christ will decide?
If the situation is as you say, then I do agree it is right to gather money on behalf of someone, to enable them to defend themselves in court, and I wish all of you the best of luck to that end!
@cactussong If you are talking about the Ecumenical Patriarch, I think he is a great leader, not only for the Church, but for the world. But Christ Himself is the Great High Priest of the Church. I don't know if you have someone else in mind; perhaps you do not accept Christ as the great High Priest of the Church????
@OrthodoxSpirituality Sorry. I will try to figure out how to unblock that and do so.
@cuttlefisch Once upon a time Pokrov.org served a valuable purpose, but then they became nothing more than a gossip column, commenting harshly and brutally on things they had no actual knowledge about. Then, they became a lynchmob.
Respond to this video... Ah, I see you are talking about the Pope. He is not the High Priest of the Church, Jesus Christ is; it is time that all Christians admited that Jesus Christ is the great High Priest and Shepherd of our Souls, not the Bishop of Rome.
@cactussong You must surely realise that the Bishop of Rome is quite meaningless except to most Roman Catholics. He means nothing to us. Jesus Christ is our High Priest, and no man stand between us and our Lord Jesus Christ.
I don't really know anything about Metropolitan Jonah, so I can't comment.
@MusingsFromTheJohn
cont 2
I found as always more time was spent on institutional or bureacratic wranglings than on being a place where one actively sought God. I now belong to those who call themselves "spritual but not religious". Why am I sharing all of this with you? (I am not sure how I should address you) Because I see in the ugliness of the conflicts you briefly outlined what I found so disheartening in so many churches (cont)
@MapleAnglican It is really just malicius hate propaganda the one by a mad-woman, the other by a group that are zealous without understanding or wisdom.
@cuttlefisch Evidently no more than irritating the very pro-Communist, very malicious 02Varvara.
Have you heard this individual's homilies? Just pick a random one on youtube and start listening from any given moment. And afterwards, just compare it with any of the sermons of pastor Shapovalov from Seattle (they go with English translation). Or you may listen to prophet John Paul Jackson (of blessed memory), again you can start wherever you would like to. You will see a huge difference. Jonah’s “preaching” is like that of a five-year-old child. It is absolutely of no value! The point is not that he sinned (I do not care what this guy committed, nor am I going to research it); the point is that people of such “spiritual level” must not belong to church hierarchy. By the way, the actual metropolitan is not any better.
The Metropolitan was slow to act. I suggest you remove this video. The case against Storheim has been decided. I agree with some parts of your video, but it is a stain on Orthodoxy to suggest the Metropolitan acted correctly. The right thing to do would have been to suspend Storheim with pay upon finding out the complaint against him. The Metropolitan erred. Why keep this posting when all the facts are known? Chest thumping is the only reason and as a monk - it is not done. The rest of your points about a defense, etc. are valid. Furthermore, there is no reason for you to respond to Drehzlo-none. This is not the type of video that promotes Christ.