I've seen several youtubers react to this show... I sincerely believe that you are one of those who have best analyzed each point of its chapters and have been able to imagine the whole plot and reactions of the characters. I have also been one of many who simply got carried away by the story and was not able to see all those points and details, so, you can pat yourself on the back as you are honestly one of the best at unraveling the tangle of GOT
Completely agree. Sophie is very intelligent and she solved the issue (with conviction and not by random guessing) well before anyone else that I have seen. We have the advantage of 20-20 hindsight; Sophie did not.
Absolutely. I’m glad most reactors watch it because it so clearly shows all the hints and gets across the main points very clearly: Rhaegar = not rapist & Ned = compromising honour when it’s the right thing to do
Ned Stark is a real one. I want that dude on my side. I also love how even though we never see a scene with Ned and Stannis together we know just from a few lines that Stannis knew him well. Amazing how much characterization Martin was able to fit in to such a large group of characters.
Interactions between Ned and Stannis were tense and not exactly cordial because Stannis felt slighted by Robert, knowing Robert considered Ned more of a brother than Stannis (and Renly). Stannis was only a teen during the Rebellion, and Robert left him to defend Storms End and protect child Renly. And then after the War, he gave Storms End, the seat of House Baratheon, to Renly (who was still a child) and sent Stannis to Dragonstone, meant for the heir to the Throne. But Robert had 2 "sons", which meant he was essentially leaving Stannis with nothing once Robert's "sons" came of age and could take over Dragonstone. Then, Stannis was super pissed when Robert went to ask Ned to be Hand instead of Stannis, who had been serving on the Council for years in various capacities (like Master of Ships). So, once again, he was overlooking Stannis...and favoring Ned. Robert really sucked, as far as brothers go.
Ned told Jon he’d tell him about his mother “the next time we see each other” because he knew when Jon was joined the Night’s Watch he’d be untouchable to Robert.
Jon being at Castle Black doesn't mean he'd be untouchable, it means he would have no claim to the Iron Throne, so if Ned told Jon about his parentage he wouldn't be able to do anything about it, he can't go back south or start another war...
@Ali Chaudhry By Jon's own account, his 'brother' Robb was better with the sword. Also, Jon begrudged being the bastard son and resented his treatment by Catelyn Stark at Winterfell. The difference is he grew out of his resentments while Theon didn't.
Or the opposite... Was Ned protecting Jon?...or Robert? By joining the Night's Watch, Jon was taking a vow to "wear no titles" and "father no children." Therefore, Jon couldn't try to reclaim the Kingdom or father a son who would one day try to reclaim the Kingdom without breaking those vows... Just some food for thought...
@Ali Chaudhry That's 100% untrue for Book Jon. Book Jon is very ambitious. He just believes/knows that his opportunities are limited as a bastard. One of the only places where parentage isn't supposed to matter is the Watch.
In the first book there is a point where Ned is thinking back on a memory of his sister confiding in him a bit of... unhappiness, with her betrothal to Robert. She didn't like how much he slept around. There is also a reference to how Lyanna was really touched by a song that Rheagar had played/sang at the tourney, and was crying while he was performing.
@@queenxx1690 mqny people suspect he is a red herring though and isn't actually who he is claiming to be but an imposter that Illyrio wants to put on the throne. The fact that his story was completely cut from the show adds support to the theory that he is just one of the Kent red herrings
@@queenxx1690 Young Griff is going to be either a Blackfyre or the descendent of Saera Targaryen, the daughter that King Jaehaerys I disowned for her promiscuity. She became one of the most successful prostitutes in Essos, and eventually owned pillow houses. And at least 3 men claiming to be her sons came to the Great Council of 101 to throw their names in as options for heir of Jaehaerys I (the same Council where Viserys I from HotD was chosen over Rhaenys Targaryen-Velaryon, The Queen Who Never Was). I think Varys is also from one of these lines (it's why the wizard wanted his privates for his spell - the magic in the Targ blood), and Young Griff will be related to him. Possibly even Illyrio's son? Didn't Illyrio tell Dany that she looks like his dead wife/lover/mistress/whatever she was...
I love how in episode 3 of season 7 ‘The Queens Justice’ Daenerys is talking to Jon and talks about how ‘people like doing what they’re good at’ and Jon remarks how he doesn’t like what he’s good at - which is killing. Reminds me of when Barristen is talking to Daenerys about her brother Rhaegar and she says how Viserys talked about how Rhaegar was good at killing people but he never liked it. Sooo good.
"the next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother" he meant that, in that "next time" jon would have been already a night's watch member, meaning that he wouldn't been able to make any claim on his name
I can't be the only one that thinks Uncle Benjen knew about Jon. One thing I wish this video had in it was when Jon was talking about not caring if he had kids and Uncle Benjen said "You might if you knew what it meant" (or something very close to that). Maybe he was just talking about having kids in general, but I felt like he knew.
I am pretty sure that their oldest brother and their father knew about it. And maybe it has something to do with their death. Something that Bran could have found out with his greenseeing... but D&D did not care.
@@Funnysterste jon wasnt even born yet when the oldest brother and the father died so i dont think they knew lol... from their perspective they probably honestly though she was kidnapped.
@@Funnysterste I doubt Brandon and Rickard knew. Brandon likely hated or strongly disliked Rhaegar, he was furious when Rhaegar gave her the flowers at the tourney and had to be held back to not attack Rhaegar. This is also likely why he was so quick to believe that he kidnapped her. Benjen might have known though. I saw an interesting theory that it was Littlefinger who told Brandon she was kidnapped, that Brandon was furious with Littlefinger for having gotten Lysa pregnant, Littlefinger had seen Lyanna ride off with Rhaegar and told the lie to deflect Brandons anger. There aren't many other people we are aware of that had much reason to lie about it It was very frustrating that D&D didn't give more hints or lead up to the reveal more gradually, people who didn't know were so confused at the reveal, not realizing who the father was and the consequences, Jon being the rightful heir and the prince that was promised. They could have shown so much through Bran
@@GJBedrin Ok, Jon was not born yet, but what if he was the Prince who was promised? Rhaegar and Lyanna were supposed to "breed" the next Night's King.
My absolute favourite hint is from ep 1 where he begs benjin to let him join the nights watch because he doesn't care about having a family or name and benjin says "you might, if you knew what it meant"
Robert's "love" for Lyanna was more obsession with wanting something you couldn't have. They had only met a few times, and Robert slept around so much that even Lyanna argued to her brothers that he would never be loyal and change his ways for anyone.
Bold words coming from lyanna, especially when she's the one who made rhaegar unfaithful to his wife. She knew he had a wife and went on with it anyways. Rhaegar, Robert, lyanna and Ned, the whole lot of them had what was coming to them. Ned was a good man, but too stupid to keep his own head to himself, pun intended.
@@MMAisTHEbestSPORT08 Ok let's not confuse honour with stupidity. Honourable people may not always come out on top, but their destiny and their story lies elsewhere. Ned was a fucking hero.
@@MMAisTHEbestSPORT08here are a lot of details of this part of the story that haven’t yet been revealed. And yes I am talking about this from a book perspective. But some details that point towards a larger story are that Rhaeger was obsessed by prophecy, most likely about the coming Long Night and the hero needed to end it. For some reason, he believed that he needed a third child. His wife Elia was told she shouldn’t have any more children. Danearys saw a vision of Rhaeger and his wife discussing this. Dorne is known for having open marriages, or at the very least relaxed rules around relationships. It’s quite likely that Rhaeger saw that there was something special about a Stark/Targaryen union. Fire and Ice and all that stuff. And there are other details that play into the narrative of this story. There is a RUclips channel InDeepGeek who lays this all out quite neatly in a video titled “Rhaeger and Elia’s marriage. What was really going on?” It is part of a greater series of videos that dive into the minutia of this situation in a very coherent and logical way. I would recommend them to anyone who would like to learn more about these ideas. And I will leave a link to that one specific video. ruclips.net/video/4CM0nn2-CbQ/видео.html
Yes. It was the art of George Martin to let us believe what the POV characters believed. He knows that, especially after a war, History is writen by the winner.
Barristen's greatest regret was that he lost to Rhaegar in the final joust during the tournament at Harrenhal. He would have awarded Ashara Dayne the title of 'Queen of Love and Beauty' of the tournament, and would have prevented and entire war.
I first doubted about the relationship between Bobby B and Lyanna when Maester Aemon talked about the girl he fell in love, he says something like he could still remember her face perfectly ever after being blind, on the other side Bobby B. already forgot Lyanna's face after some years. Everytime I see Robert I remember a bachata song from Aventura called "obsession" lmao
The books give a lot more backstory as potential context as well, and Rhaegar and Robert had more history than the show had time to explain. To make a long story...well, long but not as long as it could be...King Aerys and his sister Rhaella were forced to marry because of a new prophecy given to their father, Jaehaerys II, that the Prince who was Promised would come from the descendants of a union between Aerys and Rhaella. (Wording is awkward, but I'm sleepy and I think you can get my meaning.) At the time, both were in love with other people and were not at all happy about it. After Rhaella had a series of miscarriages and still births after Rhaegar, and Aerys's mental health began to deteriorate, Aerys began to obsess over who Rhaegar would marry. (He had planned to have Rhaegar marry a sister to reinforce the potential of the prophecy, but when no sisters came along...) Of course, Tywin, who was Hand at the time, was pushing for Cersei. But Aerys and Tywin had a lot of bad blood between them (including the fact that Aerys was in love with Joanna). In part to spite Tywin...and thinking that they might have to settle for a Valyrian wife for Rhaegar...Aerys sent Robert's father (who was Aerys's first cousin) to Essos to find a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar. Aerys rejected all of the suggestions Robert's father tried to arrange. On the trip back, the ship sank, killing both Robert's father and mother. And whether it's reasonable or not, Robert sort of held it against Rhaegar that his parents died on a mission for something for Rhaegar. So Lyanna running off with Rhaegar was salt rubbed into old wounds.
@@janeathome6643 Then he would've loved Cersei, but he didn't. He loved lyanna because of how she looked and what she personified, because lyanna was a good fighter more impulsive than her brothers and he obsessed over that, he didn't care about possessions or whatever.
I love that not only is Ned's reason for being against Danys murder is because he is also hiding a Targaryen, but it is also why Ned had misplaced empathy for Cersei and warned her before telling Robert of her children's parentage, because she was hiding their true parentage from Robert to spare Robert from killing them, and Ned was doing the exact same thing with his "son".
It’s not that Rhaegar didn’t love his wife, he believed in a prophecy he read when he was a little boy. He initially thought he was the prince that was promised, but at some point he understood that his child would be. Whatever he read he knew it would be from ice and fire. I believe he loved Lyanna, but it was also prophecy driven.
He was convinced the dragon had to have 3 heads, so he thought he needed to produce an Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. Elia almost died giving birth to Aegon. Lyanna was supposed to have "Visenya."
I loved Little Finger's face when talking to Sansa. However, my respect for Ned is even greater after this video. Little Finger knew Lyanna and Rheagar were in love, but he didn't know about the child. Only Ned and Howland Reed knew about Jon.
“A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing” really foreshadowed Dany’s wrath. She was robbed of two dragons, lost Jorah and Missandei and her boyfriend became her biggest contender for the crown. It wasn’t her genetics that did her in. It was her lashing out from the pain of her isolation and having a reptilian warhead with which to do it. 😢
Howland Reed and the midwives at the Tower Of Joy kept the secret as well. I think Littlefinger knew also but never saw an opportunity to use the knowledge for his own benefit and kept it in reserve. Selmy should also have known that Rhaegar and Lyana were in love but may not have known of the pregnancy.
@@dineshbalu6107 Because unlike Ned, she can keep her head attached and use her brain, Ned was an idiot, thank god she didn't get his genes, even though Catelyn stark was also an idiot.
@15:25 the gods did listen and granted her request to let him die. Then answered her prayer to let him live..... Just not when she expected, but much later in his life... At the Nights Watch.
The scenes where Sansa tells Littlefinger that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, and Ser Baristan describes Rhaegar as the finest man he ever knew are from the same episode.
No, the episode with Barristan is early season 3, when they are considering hiring the Unsullied. The scene with Littlefinger is after the battle of the bastards, after they had retaken Winterfell. Semly was dead at that point
The scene where Barristan tells her that Rhaegar loved singing, not killing. Also love the call back in S7 when Dany says "we all love what we're good at" and Jon replies "I don't".
Sofie, your powers of deduction are incredible. The episodes are supposed to deceived people to get at one point a big surprise when things are revealed. You are brilliant at every step. You remember long gone details. You get emotional in all the right places. Is a pleasure to watch you react. I appreciate you doing PAUSE to analyze important events. And you do all this while looking beautiful... you have it all :)
Thank you for reacting to this! It is such a good encapsulation of all the little hints they provided. It was hinted in the books and so book readers were all over this theory while the show was coming out.
You are not stupid! You've caught on to almost everything more quickly than most reactors I've watched, and I've watched a LOT of them react to GoT. 🙂 Also, this is why GoT is so much to watch more than once. I know I pick up on new things every time I have done so.
Sir Alser Thorne was sent to the wall after the war due do his loyalty and fighting along side Prince Rhaegar. Thorne hated Jon Snow cause he believed him to be the bastard son of Ned Stark who was part of the rebellion against Rhaegar. Oh the irony if Thorne actually knew who Jon was?
Something to keep in mind about Ned he kept quiet during conversations like the one he had with Robert, he never confirmed most the stories being told, and he never boasted or talked about his victories during the rebellion it was other men who spoke of these things whether they were actually there to witness or not. But in doing so others including his children believed whatever others especially loyal bannermen etc said about him because Ned didn't talk about the war or much about Lyanna and he never outwardly denied the stories being told. I think Robert like you said had a one sided love for Lyanna, they were arranged to be married but she didn't feel the same way about him. Personally, I think he never really knew or understood who she was as a person really but idolized her in his mind made her out to be something she wasn't, in fact her dying likely made those ideas of her stronger putting her up on a pedestal not seeing any of her faults viewing her as perfect. Knowing how wild and free spirited she was (like Aria is) she would have likely been more of an unsuited match then Cersei ever was.
As far as we know, Robert only ever met Lyanna the one time at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Same with Rheagarand Lyanna. Robert was more enamored by what he'd heard from Ned and seen at Harrenhal. Ned and Robert were fostered by Jon Arryn at the Eyrie in the Vale. They grew up together like brothers, so Robert grew up hearing Ned talk about his wild sister, Lyanna. They were betrothed sight unseen. Lyanna had spoken to Ned about her trepidations due to Robert's rep for womanizing (he already had a daughter in the Vale). Then, after seeing his drunken debauchery at the Tourney, she didn't want any part of him. At the Tourney, Rheagar sang a song that moved Lyanna to tears. After the mysterious Knight pf the Laughing Tree defeated three well reputed knights then disappeared, Rheagar was sent out by the Mad King to find the mysterious Knight (who all evidence points to being Lyanna), but returned with only the shield. The next day, after Rheagar won the tournament was when he gave the reef of blue roses to Lyanna instead of Elia. After the tournament, she stayed in Harrenhal as guest of Lord Whent, whose son was one of Rheagar beasties and part of his constant entourage, so they could keep up communication inconspicuously That's how they arranged to disappear together. Does Middlefinger know the truth? I think he does. The entire war was built upon a lie. But who's lie? My money is on Middlefinger. The most likely place for Lyanna and Rheagar to rendezvous would have been the Inn at the Crossroads, which is also the most likely place Middlefinger would have been hold up on his way back to The Fingers after his duel with Brandon Stark. It was the year of the false spring. The mountain passes were snowed in and would have been impassable. He would have been awaiting the snow to melt to continue his journey. He's there, being Middlefinger, watching everything, and being inconspicuous. He witnesses Lyanna and Rheagar meet and leave together. A day or so later in comes Brandon Stark on his way to Riverrun to marry Catelyn. He sees Middlefinger and stilling a rage after their duel he threatens Middlefinger. Middlefinger, thinking quickly, distracts Brandon by telling him he witnessed Rheagar *kidnap* Lyanna. Brandon immediately rides for King's Landing to confront Rheagar....and the rest....
It's possible Brandon's anger was more about Littlefinger having taken Lysa's maidenhood, Littlefinger might even have boasted about it, and might even have claimed it was Cat's maidenhood he took. A big reason for the duel might even be that Littlefinger thought Cat loved her, that it was her climbing into his bed instead of Lysa. Otherwise the theory does make a lot of sense
@@avon8794 I agree with you that I think there was some significant interaction between LF and Brandon where LF fed misinformation to Brandon that caused hot-headed Brandon to stomp down to King's Landing to challenge Rhaegar to a duel over Lyanna's honor. But I think that came quite a bit after the duel between LF and Brandon. Also, I thought LF was the one who challenged Brandon? for Cat's hand in marriage? And then Cat begged Brandon not to kill LF because it was a harmless "boyhood crush." Also, if I remember correctly, LF's dalliance with Lysa happened as she was helping to nurse him back to health from his wounds from the duel. (And, though I'm reluctant to give LF the benefit of the doubt in anything, for all we know LF was taking milk of the poppy for his injuries and in his mind it truly *was* Cat.)
I get choked up everytime I see this video. Ned kept the secret to his grave. BTW Sofie, there has been a theory of mine that Little Finger was friends with Lyanna and Rhaegar and he helped them escape. Then he sent letters around telling lies about Rhaegar kidnaping and raping Lyanna. Which essentialy caused the war. Then when Brandon Stark went to King's Landing, Baelish could have sent a letter to The Mad King, passing himself as Brandon saying "we're coming for you!". Which made Aerys even more paranoid and chose to torture the Starks father and son.
@@carlogiurizzato2441 I was thinking about this as well about Baelish telling Brandon. The only thing is that Brandon hated Baelish so he would be on his guard before believing him. Unless Baelish does something which would piss Brandon off and then before Brandon would attack Petyr, Baelish would tell him this about Lyanna be kidnaped and raped. Brandon would be such in shock from that news plus the rage he already had that he may believe him.
14 year old Littlefinger was not friends with 21 year old Rhaegar or 16 year old Lyanna. Yes, LF was fostering in Riverrun with the Tullys, but he wasn't from an important enough family to be on either of their radar. It's more likely that he twisted rumors he had heard so that Brandon would get himself killed in revenge for Cat and the fact that Brandon mocked him in their duel.
Whoops. That was a typo. Hahahaha. It was supposed to say "was not." This is why I shouldn't post messages when I'm sleepy. Comment is now fixed to better represent what I meant.
NOONE in the Seven Kingdoms knew that Jon is actual Targeryen Heir,apart from Ned Stark,becuse he we the only one who saw and took Jon. Ned carried it with him into the grave. What an absolute CHAD
@@anatos1722 Yeah...in the books, Jojen and Meera tell Bran the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, which is the story of the Tourney at Harrenhall. Really don't know why D&D left it out of the show...
I think Ned was against going after Dany because she was a child, I don't think it has anything to do with him raising a Targaryen himself, he was disgusted by what the Lannisters did to Rhaegars kids which caused a rift with him and Robert.
Books(GOT), Ned's POV: Ned thought the betrothal was a good match. After all, Robert loved her. Lyanna looked at Ned sadly, Robert is Robert, and that's who he will always be. I will do my duty though and marry him. The young Lyanna was wiser in the affairs of the heart than both Robert and her older brother.
@@janeathome6643 It's so interesting that the show went this route, since Jon is more of his own person in the books. Does he strive to be honorable? Sure. But his motivation is more to prove people wrong about their beliefs about bastards being innately dishonorable than anything else...
Man which is a sad departure from book Jon, book jon is the best of both starks and Targeryns. He is extremely pragmatic, cunning and practical. Some of his ideas like the child swapping were genius, he keeps things from Stannis, he plays people against each other, he is a genius tactician and can be cruel and direct, including lying to people when its needed or forcing a mom to give up her new born baby even if there is a good chance it would be killed horribly He is if Ned stark was pragmatic for the greater good instead of blindly following honor in each situation Its sad the show went this way and made him a dumber copy of Ned, who goes - she's muh queen and i dont want it.
@@harish123az Yes! 100%. A carbon copy of Ned made for a far less interesting Jon, and I don't understand why D&D thought this was the way to go with his character. It shows another one of the million reasons I believe D&D only read Books 1-3 and didn't bother to really know the story or the characters after that.
@@harish123az Also, despite waiting 10+ years for Winds of Winter, I still can't wait to see how resurrection is going to affect his character. Because it _will_ change him in the books.
There is a theory that Maester Aemon *did* know who Jon was. Aemon was Jon's great, great uncle. Aemon's great, great uncle was a man named Brynden Rivers, bastard son of King Aegon IV. Brynden was better known as Lord Bloodraven. Lord Bloodraven was a Greenseer and Warg. Aemon was *very* close with Bloodraven. They, in fact, traveled to the wall together after Bloodraven was sentenced for murder by Aegon V. Bloodraven later became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch for 13 years before disappearing beyond the Wall to become the Three-Eyed Raven. Even before he became the Three-Eyed Raven, Lord Bloodraven was a powerfull Greenseer and Warg. That's how he earned the nickname 'The King's Sorcerer'. The theory is that Bloodraven saw Jon in his visions, knew who he was, and shared that knowledge with Aemon. Bloodraven already knew of Bran and his powers. He already knew of Euron Greyjoy and his abilities. Bloodraven/Three-Eyed Raven had been searching a long time through visions for other Greenseers and Wargs, which all the Stark children had inherent abilities. He would have seen Jon in his visions and been aware of his abilities.
Seems unlikely Aemon knew, because before he died he seemed to think Dany was the prince that was promised, after realizing the prophecy was gender neutral. Bloodraven likely figured it out, but more likely after becoming the three eyed raven
Sofie i watch alot of reactors and your discussions/observations are chefs kiss! Game of Thrones remains my favorite show of all time, rewatches just make it better and better 😅
I knew Robert didn’t love her when he told Cersei he couldn’t remember her face. She was the ‘one thing he wanted he couldn’t have’. It had nothing to do with Lyanna. It was a fantasy in his mind.
There is a pattern. The war of the five kings started because the Lannisters killed Jon Aryn (except they didn't). Robert's Rebellion started because Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Leanna (except he didn't).
Lyanna may have been Robert's motivation to fight the Targs, but the Rebellion started because of the Mad King. Lords Arryn, Stark, Tully, and Robert were forming an alliance against Aerys for years before Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together. Also, no formal declaration against the Targ occured until Jon Arryn called his banners to protect Robert and Ned (his foster sons) after Aerys called for them to be turned in to him following his brutal execution of Rickard and Brandon Stark. Lyanna and Rhaegar were just the catalyst for Brandon running off to King's Landing to challenge Rhaegar.
Alliser Thorne was a Targaryen loyalist from the Crownlands. He chose the wall over execution after Robert became king. Knowing how he treated and betrayed Jon.....how's that for a mind f***?!!!
I keep trying to remember that if Jon hadn't been treated so cruelly by Catylin, and everyone in someway or other, he wouldn't have the heart, compassion, feeling of loyalty, and leadership he manifested over all those years that set the pattern for his life...
Meh, GRRM clearly said Cat never treated Jon cruelly except one time which was the grief of a mother. He had a way way better life than bastards have in this setting and him living in a castle and interacting so closely with genuine heirs
@@harish123az - Perhaps. I'd say it's all in one's perception. Just knowing that you are being "set apart" is a difficult cross to bear, especially for a child. Your last sentence has me confused as Jon IS a "genuine" heir.
@@harish123azthat's not true at all it's implied that she was mean to him several times over the course of his childhood thats why he fears even going into that room in the first place. Read that passage again and then again when he comes out to say goodbye to robb right after that he looks sad and Robb's first thought was my mother? Lol totally implies she's a cunt regularly to jon. If grrm really said this find the quote but it doesn't exist
Rasgar Targaryen was Ned’s Brother-in-Law by marriage. Danerys was Ned’s Sister-in-Law by marriage. Robert Baratheon was Ned’s best friend, but he wasn’t his blood. And Ned’s honor compelled him to honor his blood and try to protect Danereys and Jon. ❤
I had hoped you would watch this at the end of season six, but now I’m glad you waited. Seeing you piece it all together in the last video, complete with X-Files music (hilarious!), was well worth the wait. Your observations about the show have always been brilliant and insightful. Don’t feel bad that you didn’t pick up on this- GOT is designed to lull the viewer into not questioning the prevailing historical account. And this is one of the underlying themes of GRRM’s work: questioning the reliability of tales handed down to us. Inspired by Tolkien, yes- but also written in reaction to Tolkien. The latter’s religious inspiration contrasts with Martin’s more existentialist POV. In his universe there are no certainties. The gods, if they exist, are morally capricious- look at Melisandre’s example. Without clear supernatural guidance, humans are left alone in an absurd universe and must create their own values.
I used to think that people should watch it after 6 and then I was like no there are 2 confirmations still to come, one very slight and one right on the head at the last episode of season 7. To me it's more powerful then. Like it is to her now b/c she figured it out herself first.
At last you watched it !👍😊 I loved your reaction, it HAD to be emotional.😢 The masterpiece George R.R. Martin is still writing is all about POVs and appearances, about impossible choices and their terrible consequences, about subtil clues scattered throughout the novels...
Damned! I cried AGAIN even though I have watched this clip and reactions to it about a thousand times! The idea of how a simple lovestory can have so many bizarre events to follow, the writing of ASOIAF is simply a masterpiece
13:10 They also leave one of these out in this video. It was the episode when Jon lands at Dragonstone. Tyrion: Starks don't fair well in the south Jon: Yes, but I'm not a Stark... Drogon at that very moment swoops in it's sooooooooo good.
Maester Aemon is Jons Great Great Great Uncle Aemons Brother That took the throne Was Aegon the 5th then His 2nd Son took the crown and then his First son took the crown which was Aerys II (The mad king ) and He had 3 kids Rhaegar, viserys, And Daenerys, Rhaegar Had 2 Children with Elia Martel And I can't say anymore :)
Ned wanted to wait for Jon to be in the night's watch before he told him, that way Jon having no claim to anything wouldn't be a threat to Robert anymore when he found out he's the true heir. There's also thought that Benjin knows about Jon, as he tells Jon he doesn't know what he's giving up by joining the watch. In the books the big rumor is that Jon's mom is Ashara Dayne, sister of Ser Arthur Dayne who Ned killed at the Tower of Joy. She is thought to have killed herself after Ned returned the Dayne family sword and some say a Stark brother (either Ned or his brother) took her virginity at the Haranhall tourney and that Ned was in love with her. Cat questions him about it once and he forbade her from ever mentioning Ashara's name again.
This is where characterization feeds plot. Ned is an honorable man stuck with a terrible secret. This upright, unshakable man bringing home his bastard is a massive slap in the face to Catelyn, so his “don’t fucking talk about this” attitude is seen as a righteous man’s shame, both to the reader and to the characters. Ashara Dayne is brought up to bolster this misdirection. Catelyn gets scolded for mentioning her as Jon’s mother. We are meant to see this as striking a nerve because Ned feels guilty for his affair. In reality Ned’s reaction is probably caused by two factors: his love for and grieving over Ashara; and the fact that he doesn’t want any rumors about Jon’s parentage pointing to the Daynes, who very probably conspired with Ned in keeping this secret. You’ll notice that his cover story to Robert - the entire reason he has to hide Jon in the first place - is Wylla, a commoner. He also won’t elaborate to Robert, which we see again as shame and embarrassment for dishonoring his wife, rather than deflection to keep a secret. We are given some hints, of course. This promise he genuinely struggles to keep for Lyanna, the seemingly respectful remembrance of Rhaegar, as well as how Jon looks so much like Arya - who in turn is told she looks so much like Lyanna.
@@jamesmswenko8292 There is also the fact that her family has some common Targaryen traits, hair and eye color. If Jon had looked more like Rhaegar it could have been explained with Dayne blood
@@avon8794 Yes, she and Arthur both had purple eyes. And to support theories that the Daynes helped Ned with Jon...in the books, Ashara's nephew, who is called "Ned" Dayne, tells Arya that he and Jon are "milk brothers"? "Nurse brothers"? Whatever he called it, he said that he and Jon had the same nurse maid. (And was her name Wylla? )
@@avon8794 I haven't read the books in over a decade, so my memory is fuzzy on whether Edric Dayne stated as fact that Wylla was Jon's mother or if it was just what Arya assumed from the conversation.
Look at the visual clue in the shot with Maester Aemon and Jon. The colors are inverse. White hair on a black fur. Black hair on white fur. Why do you think Jon happened to get the white direwolf with eyes of fire and blood? 😉
@@Sandra071285 on Jon, the scene still has his white shoulder fur because it takes place while Jon is still a recruit just before he says his vows and dons the black cloak of the watch.
Littlefinger had his suspicions about Jon's identity. Really anyone with intelligence and who really knew Ned would doubt Jon's identity. The same with Benjen, they don't give it to understand but it seems that he also had his suspicions or could even know but decided not to speak for Jon's sake. Stannis also saw it as unlikely that Ned had a bastard, sad to know that Robert (his best friend) never doubted or suspected anything, being Ned's closest man. Robert did not love Lyanna, he was obsessed with her. They always said that Robert loved her and fought for her, but they never say that Lyanna returned his feelings. I think the most discreet clue was in the first episode, Catelyn forbids Jon from appearing before the kings because it would be "an insult to show a bastard" - it wouldn't be until much later that these words would take on another meaning, Jon being the true heir and Joffrey a bastard, the ultimate irony.
I'm not sure LF thought one way or the other about Jon. But he definitely knew / had opinions about Rhaegar and Lyanna, since he was at Riverrun recovering from his duel with Brandon for Cat when Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar. LF being LF, I'm sure he knew much of what Lord Hoster knew...which was probably quite a bit, since he was part of the Alliance.
If Rhaeghar did it for a prophecy to save humanity (and the books make it clear he did), then its not selfish, its very much like Stannis sacrificing his daughter
Oh man...wish you would have waited for Season 7 to be over to watch this, but it was awesome seeing you catch this when Sam was in the citadel though...so many people miss it!
To add one more scene: Jaime, in response to it being pointed out that he loves Cersei, he said "You don't get to choose who you love". A validation of Maester Aemon's "If you had to choose between duty and someone you love, what would you choose?" Rhaegar and Illya Martell was probably an arranged (possibly unloving) marriage too. Jon chose duty over Ygritte. Rhaegar chose Lyanna over duty. Tough choices are never easy.
HIs marriage to Illya was arranged, but also widely seen as growing into love. Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar (at the tourney at Harrenhal, but I think his interest in Lyanna was driven by his belief in the Prince Who Was Promised prophecy. It was his obsession (and not incorrect since the age of the White Walkers' return had finally arrived).
@@janeathome6643 My bet is that Elia was on board. We know that Dorne is more open to alternative relationships. My gut feeling is that Elia was either bi or a lesbian. She and Rhaegar cared a lot about each other, but they weren't into each other. I think we'll learn in the books (if they're ever published) that Rhaegar had Elia's blessings to pursue Lyanna. Otherwise, it was a ballsy move by Rhaegar to take Lyanna to the Tower of Joy, which was in Dorne.
@@jamesmswenko8292 Part of me wonders if the reason Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar was partially due to prophecy as well... I mean, it all started because Howland Reed unexpectedly showed up at the Tourney at Harrenhall...
*PROMISE ME NED* In the 1st book there's a very somber sequence where Robert in his deathbed is pleading with Ned to take care of Joffrey. Before he dies last thing Robert says is " *PROMISE ME NED* ". But Ned hears that sentence in a female voice. It's so well written, it's hard to do justice. That was my first vague inkling. All through the 1st book Ned has a crisis of faith looking at Robert deteriorating on the throne, and asks himself if Robert really was a better alternative to the Targaryen Crown Prince. It kills Ned cause he starts to second guess everything he had fought for. In the process of winning the war he lost the Brother he knew. There's times when Ned is walking through the castles and wherever he goes he comes across these relics left by the Targaryens, which reminds him of Prince Rhaeger. The greatest dynasty is gone, but their imprint is still everywhere. Even as absolute masters of King's Landing, it's Ned and Robert who felt like outsiders there. It's all beautifully written and Ned's constant inner torment is impossible to do justice on screen. But that's when you start to wonder why is Ned feeling so guilty all the time? Maybe everything is not what it seems? It's that "chaos, a gaping pit" line from Varys. The victors kept telling lies about the vanquished so many times, they themselves forgot what the truth was. People say ASOIAF is the tragic love story of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But it's really A Tragic Love Story of Eddard and Robert. Back in the day ASOIAF forum had a funny thread where they listed every suggestive moment between Ned and Robert, including just the sheer number of times Ned thinks of Young Robert as "muscled like a maiden's fancy" and "every inch a king". Dude slick left his wife home to be with King Bob 😅 Obviously GRRM can go in a different direction with the Targaryen revealqtion in Winds as he has little choice but to do certain things differently. But regardless, the dilemmas of Ned around Robert, Rhaegar Lyanna and Jon is pure thematic excellence.
Fact! after Game of thrones, and having kind the same fate in Lord Of The Rings, Ned Stark, NEVER takes a role if he dies in the first season/part whatever. Kind of funny, but it's not. He is such a good actor, great voice, great interpretation. Sophie, i can hardly wait for you to finish the season. :) when is the next episode? Thursday? Monday?
I've watched this compilation many times now and just now realized that the last scene (that always seemed a little odd to me in this compilation) wasn't about Cat at all. It was about Jon living through a deadly situation twice, because someone (the lord of light) had plans for him. I am so stupid.
Not so sure about that, the scene wasn't in the book, and the existence of God's with a will, rather than it just being magic, is highly questionable. I see it more as being about the consequences of Ned refusing to tell Cat, and Cat's guilt about hating Jon for something that wasn't his fault
I agree. For me, there are couple of clips that don't really support R+L=J in and of itself, but do sort of support the narrative and give context to the lengths Ned went to to keep it a secret.
Alistair Thorne always hated Jon because he was the son of Ned Stark and Allistair fought for the Targaryens in the rebellion. If Allistair knew who Jon truly was, he would have loved him and been more loyal than anyome...
Ned tells Jon that the next time he sees him, they'll talk about his mother -- because he expected that Jon would take the join the Night's Watch, and in doing so would be removed from politics, thus he would be able to then tell him the truth.
I don't think they knew (at least not all of them) but imagine the PRINCE winning a contest and choosen a woman to praise that is not his wife? that will be an awkward moment for everybody
12:50 funny thing about that line is that ned probably wanted to wait for Jon to take his night's watch vows before telling him the truth of his lineage. Because then he wouldn't have anymore claim to the throne, therefore posing no threat to Robert. Reason number 5 million of why ned is the realest mf in fiction in my book.
The thing with the scenario of Robert learning the truth of r+l=j is how his view of lyanna may change because she didn't reciprocate his feelings. And how that could've affected his and Ned's relationship more than the situation already did. There's a possibility he would've had Jon killed anyways.
There is an interesting theory related to the detail of Littlefinger looking at Sansa like he knew more about the story of Rhaeger and Lyanna then the kidnap and rape story that she had growing up hearing. After we get into the Game of Thrones story for a while we learn how much Littlefinger was behind setting the Starks and Lannisters against each other. Chaos is a ladder and all that. Well, what if he was behind some of the actions that led to Robert’s Rebellion? Remember Robert’s Rebellion was built on a lie! I’m going to throw out a bit of known history and an idea here. Littlefinger was in love with Catelyn. He even fought a duel for her hand with her fiancé Brandon Stark. And he was greatly injured in the duel. After recovering enough to travel, Catelyn’s father sent Littlefinger away from Riverrun and back to his home in the Fingers of the Vale. Right around this time is when Lyanna went missing. She had been staying in the Riverlands area after attending the tournament where Rhaeger gave her the wreath of blue winter roses. She had stayed in the Riverlands while waiting to attend the wedding of her brother Brandon to Catelyn. It is very likely that during his travels home Littlefinger stoped at the Inn at the Crossroads. It is a location where many things happen in the books. In the show it is the inn where Catelyn took Tyrion hostage. And probably the same inn where Hot Pie ended up working. If Lyanna and Rhaeger made any arrangements to meet-up, the Inn at the Crossroads would have been a convenient location. Right where Littlefinger could have overseen them. In the meantime Brandon was staying at Riverrun after the duel and before his wedding. Lysa Tully turned out to be pregnant with Littlefinger’s child right around then. She had been offering him comfort after he was injured in the duel. And her father forced her to abort the child with Moon Tea. What would Brandon have done if he had learned that Littlefinger had gotten the sister of his fiancé pregnant, especially after he had fought a duel with him? Perhaps he went after Littlefinger. And if Littlefinger had overseen Lyanna and Rhaeger meet up, he could have told Brandon that Rhaeger had abducted her. It would have taken the heat off of him and caused mischief for Brandon. Because what we do know is that Brandon went to King’s Landing in a rage to demand that Rhaeger return his sister. But Rhaeger and Lyanna weren’t there. They had traveled to Dorne. The Mad King then arrested Brandon and his companions. Which caused Ned and Brandon’s father to travel to King’s Landing to try to free his son. And what followed is what started Robert’s Rebellion. This theory definitely has some ideas that would have to be proven accurate. But the timeline and location for all these things to happen is accurate. All the unknowns have been posed as a question. The theory is just suggesting that Littlefinger played a central role in the lie that started Robert’s Rebellion and suggests how that could have happened. We already know a lot of things that Littlefinger was behind and this fits his pattern. It could have been what taught him how much he had to gain by causing chaos. Here is a link that covers this theory in greater detail. ruclips.net/video/IoMoxg6iN-w/видео.html
Marriages weren't about love. They were social contracts for either political or economic gain. That's why romance was such a popular subject. It allowed people to life out their fantasies vicariously because their real marriages weren't based on strong emotional attraction. That's what affairs were for.
The very first episode, the dichotomy is set. Jon, the bastard, outside to avoid insult to the royal family. And he is the real royal family, and they are the bastards.
'A Story of Ice and Fire' is the series of books that 'Game of Thrones' is based on, and there's a theory about how Lyanna and Rhaegar met that's based on material from those books. The name of the theory is a few rows down because spoilers. Over the years, as GRRM put out the books -- one book every 20 years or so -- fans formulated theories about things in the books. As more books were published, many of those theories turned out to be true. Some are still unproven one way or the other... just waiting on the final two books. The theory that's the subject of this video was called (R+L=J), and there was a lot of debate about it -- for years -- until it was finally confirmed. So the theory about the circumstances that led to Lyanna and Rhaegar meeting is called: ... and it's only the name of the theory, so you'll have to look it up yourself it you're interested, is: The Knight of the Laughing Tree.
I believe that it was little finger who started the rumour, he told hot headed Brandon, just like he started the war between the wolves and the lions, I believe that he wanted Brandon to do something stupid so that he could get cat but she married Ned anyway.
Did Sean Bean know Lyanna was Jon’s mother bc that scene when they leave each other as Ned leaves for KL and Jon to the wall and Ned says “next time I see you I’ll tell you all about your mother” and his voice cracks a bit - it’s like the actor knew
It's possible he heard the theory, but it's also possible he just acted the way he was told to act, being explained what Ned was likely feeling at the time
I believe he was told the backstory by the showrunners. Kit read the books before filming started and figured it out. Also, there is a an R+L=J carved into a wooden post in the interior at Castle Black, I think when Sam and Jon are scrubbing the table.
Keep in mind, this isn't an actual thing in the books. Its hinted at, but because GRRM hasnt' finished the books, there is some question. Also, the last book introduces a character that could also be .... interesting...but I'll not spoil it here in case you decide to read the books.
Nobody could make that connection from these scenes until it was revealed. Well, I'm sure someone out there predicted it. But it was written so that these seemingly unimportant scenes and dialog only become important after you know the truth.
This video was made in between Seasons 5 and 6, while we were all debating whether or not Jon could really be dead. The main argument we book readers made was that George built too much mystery around his parentage for his story to be over.
This is a very difficult issue to work through because it doesn't matter who sits the throne when the Long Night comes, and we don't know what Rhaegar knew. If Rhaegar knew that the Prince who was Promised would come from a uniting of ice (Starks) and fire (Targaryen), then what he did made perfect sense. The only issue to me is that he likely could have done this in a way that didn't put the throne at risk and also didn't piss off the Starks.
This is what I like so much about the story and also what makes it frustrating to analyze. You rarely know what information a character knows nor how they really think. The books don't narrate events. You get information through a character's eyes. You can probably trust that they are telling you accurately what is happening in real-time, but when you get a flashback from them or if they are thinking about a given event, then you really have to consider whether they really are in a position to know the truth of that event.
I've seen several youtubers react to this show... I sincerely believe that you are one of those who have best analyzed each point of its chapters and have been able to imagine the whole plot and reactions of the characters. I have also been one of many who simply got carried away by the story and was not able to see all those points and details, so, you can pat yourself on the back as you are honestly one of the best at unraveling the tangle of GOT
Completely agree. Sophie is very intelligent and she solved the issue (with conviction and not by random guessing) well before anyone else that I have seen. We have the advantage of 20-20 hindsight; Sophie did not.
This is still the best fan made video of a TV show i've ever seen. The clips chosen the music and editing is world class.
Absolutely. I’m glad most reactors watch it because it so clearly shows all the hints and gets across the main points very clearly: Rhaegar = not rapist & Ned = compromising honour when it’s the right thing to do
Ned Stark is a real one. I want that dude on my side. I also love how even though we never see a scene with Ned and Stannis together we know just from a few lines that Stannis knew him well. Amazing how much characterization Martin was able to fit in to such a large group of characters.
I would pay serious money to see Ned and Stannis interact
@@ashkaash9819 Daavos wouldve been smitten with Ned. I will not be surprised if he follows him
Interactions between Ned and Stannis were tense and not exactly cordial because Stannis felt slighted by Robert, knowing Robert considered Ned more of a brother than Stannis (and Renly).
Stannis was only a teen during the Rebellion, and Robert left him to defend Storms End and protect child Renly.
And then after the War, he gave Storms End, the seat of House Baratheon, to Renly (who was still a child) and sent Stannis to Dragonstone, meant for the heir to the Throne. But Robert had 2 "sons", which meant he was essentially leaving Stannis with nothing once Robert's "sons" came of age and could take over Dragonstone.
Then, Stannis was super pissed when Robert went to ask Ned to be Hand instead of Stannis, who had been serving on the Council for years in various capacities (like Master of Ships). So, once again, he was overlooking Stannis...and favoring Ned.
Robert really sucked, as far as brothers go.
Everyone knew ned's character, even Cersei and Tywin
@@jcompton8507 Robert deserved his death, so did renly, Stannis did not.
Ned told Jon he’d tell him about his mother “the next time we see each other” because he knew when Jon was joined the Night’s Watch he’d be untouchable to Robert.
Jon being at Castle Black doesn't mean he'd be untouchable, it means he would have no claim to the Iron Throne, so if Ned told Jon about his parentage he wouldn't be able to do anything about it, he can't go back south or start another war...
@Ali Chaudhry By Jon's own account, his 'brother' Robb was better with the sword. Also, Jon begrudged being the bastard son and resented his treatment by Catelyn Stark at Winterfell. The difference is he grew out of his resentments while Theon didn't.
@@thecockerel86 Read the books. Jon is better with a sword and robb is better with a lance.
Or the opposite...
Was Ned protecting Jon?...or Robert?
By joining the Night's Watch, Jon was taking a vow to "wear no titles" and "father no children."
Therefore, Jon couldn't try to reclaim the Kingdom or father a son who would one day try to reclaim the Kingdom without breaking those vows...
Just some food for thought...
@Ali Chaudhry That's 100% untrue for Book Jon. Book Jon is very ambitious. He just believes/knows that his opportunities are limited as a bastard. One of the only places where parentage isn't supposed to matter is the Watch.
In the first book there is a point where Ned is thinking back on a memory of his sister confiding in him a bit of... unhappiness, with her betrothal to Robert. She didn't like how much he slept around. There is also a reference to how Lyanna was really touched by a song that Rheagar had played/sang at the tourney, and was crying while he was performing.
When you realise Robert was actually the one holding the country back the whole time 😂
Yeah but in book there is also Young Griff
@@queenxx1690 mqny people suspect he is a red herring though and isn't actually who he is claiming to be but an imposter that Illyrio wants to put on the throne. The fact that his story was completely cut from the show adds support to the theory that he is just one of the Kent red herrings
@@queenxx1690 Young Griff is going to be either a Blackfyre or the descendent of Saera Targaryen, the daughter that King Jaehaerys I disowned for her promiscuity. She became one of the most successful prostitutes in Essos, and eventually owned pillow houses. And at least 3 men claiming to be her sons came to the Great Council of 101 to throw their names in as options for heir of Jaehaerys I (the same Council where Viserys I from HotD was chosen over Rhaenys Targaryen-Velaryon, The Queen Who Never Was).
I think Varys is also from one of these lines (it's why the wizard wanted his privates for his spell - the magic in the Targ blood), and Young Griff will be related to him. Possibly even Illyrio's son? Didn't Illyrio tell Dany that she looks like his dead wife/lover/mistress/whatever she was...
I love how in episode 3 of season 7 ‘The Queens Justice’ Daenerys is talking to Jon and talks about how ‘people like doing what they’re good at’ and Jon remarks how he doesn’t like what he’s good at - which is killing. Reminds me of when Barristen is talking to Daenerys about her brother Rhaegar and she says how Viserys talked about how Rhaegar was good at killing people but he never liked it. Sooo good.
"the next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother"
he meant that, in that "next time" jon would have been already a night's watch member, meaning that he wouldn't been able to make any claim on his name
I can't be the only one that thinks Uncle Benjen knew about Jon. One thing I wish this video had in it was when Jon was talking about not caring if he had kids and Uncle Benjen said "You might if you knew what it meant" (or something very close to that). Maybe he was just talking about having kids in general, but I felt like he knew.
I am pretty sure that their oldest brother and their father knew about it. And maybe it has something to do with their death. Something that Bran could have found out with his greenseeing... but D&D did not care.
Benjen and liana were close in the books iirc.
@@Funnysterste jon wasnt even born yet when the oldest brother and the father died so i dont think they knew lol... from their perspective they probably honestly though she was kidnapped.
@@Funnysterste I doubt Brandon and Rickard knew. Brandon likely hated or strongly disliked Rhaegar, he was furious when Rhaegar gave her the flowers at the tourney and had to be held back to not attack Rhaegar. This is also likely why he was so quick to believe that he kidnapped her. Benjen might have known though. I saw an interesting theory that it was Littlefinger who told Brandon she was kidnapped, that Brandon was furious with Littlefinger for having gotten Lysa pregnant, Littlefinger had seen Lyanna ride off with Rhaegar and told the lie to deflect Brandons anger. There aren't many other people we are aware of that had much reason to lie about it
It was very frustrating that D&D didn't give more hints or lead up to the reveal more gradually, people who didn't know were so confused at the reveal, not realizing who the father was and the consequences, Jon being the rightful heir and the prince that was promised. They could have shown so much through Bran
@@GJBedrin Ok, Jon was not born yet, but what if he was the Prince who was promised? Rhaegar and Lyanna were supposed to "breed" the next Night's King.
My absolute favourite hint is from ep 1 where he begs benjin to let him join the nights watch because he doesn't care about having a family or name and benjin says "you might, if you knew what it meant"
Exactly. Ned knew exactly what he was doing by planning to wait until Jon had joined the Watch to reveal his parentage.
And here we are 500 years later still waiting for the next book in the series............ Hurry it up already George!!!
Robert's "love" for Lyanna was more obsession with wanting something you couldn't have. They had only met a few times, and Robert slept around so much that even Lyanna argued to her brothers that he would never be loyal and change his ways for anyone.
Bold words coming from lyanna, especially when she's the one who made rhaegar unfaithful to his wife. She knew he had a wife and went on with it anyways. Rhaegar, Robert, lyanna and Ned, the whole lot of them had what was coming to them. Ned was a good man, but too stupid to keep his own head to himself, pun intended.
@@MMAisTHEbestSPORT08 Ok let's not confuse honour with stupidity. Honourable people may not always come out on top, but their destiny and their story lies elsewhere. Ned was a fucking hero.
@@asthajindal5275 Not all heroes are smart, so Ned was a hero, and Ned was stupid.
@@MMAisTHEbestSPORT08here are a lot of details of this part of the story that haven’t yet been revealed. And yes I am talking about this from a book perspective. But some details that point towards a larger story are that Rhaeger was obsessed by prophecy, most likely about the coming Long Night and the hero needed to end it. For some reason, he believed that he needed a third child. His wife Elia was told she shouldn’t have any more children. Danearys saw a vision of Rhaeger and his wife discussing this. Dorne is known for having open marriages, or at the very least relaxed rules around relationships. It’s quite likely that Rhaeger saw that there was something special about a Stark/Targaryen union. Fire and Ice and all that stuff. And there are other details that play into the narrative of this story. There is a RUclips channel InDeepGeek who lays this all out quite neatly in a video titled “Rhaeger and Elia’s marriage. What was really going on?” It is part of a greater series of videos that dive into the minutia of this situation in a very coherent and logical way. I would recommend them to anyone who would like to learn more about these ideas. And I will leave a link to that one specific video. ruclips.net/video/4CM0nn2-CbQ/видео.html
I still believe in the books rhaegar did kidnapped lyanna
Don’t feel stupid Sophie. Everyone kicks themselves after seeing this video.
Yes. It was the art of George Martin to let us believe what the POV characters believed. He knows that, especially after a war, History is writen by the winner.
I didn't kick myself.
This video so perfectly summarizes such a great tragedy. Doing a rewatch of the series is such a great experience!
Barristen's greatest regret was that he lost to Rhaegar in the final joust during the tournament at Harrenhal. He would have awarded Ashara Dayne the title of 'Queen of Love and Beauty' of the tournament, and would have prevented and entire war.
I first doubted about the relationship between Bobby B and Lyanna when Maester Aemon talked about the girl he fell in love, he says something like he could still remember her face perfectly ever after being blind, on the other side Bobby B. already forgot Lyanna's face after some years. Everytime I see Robert I remember a bachata song from Aventura called "obsession" lmao
Great observation! I think Robert "loved" Lyanna as a possession.
The books give a lot more backstory as potential context as well, and Rhaegar and Robert had more history than the show had time to explain.
To make a long story...well, long but not as long as it could be...King Aerys and his sister Rhaella were forced to marry because of a new prophecy given to their father, Jaehaerys II, that the Prince who was Promised would come from the descendants of a union between Aerys and Rhaella. (Wording is awkward, but I'm sleepy and I think you can get my meaning.)
At the time, both were in love with other people and were not at all happy about it.
After Rhaella had a series of miscarriages and still births after Rhaegar, and Aerys's mental health began to deteriorate, Aerys began to obsess over who Rhaegar would marry. (He had planned to have Rhaegar marry a sister to reinforce the potential of the prophecy, but when no sisters came along...)
Of course, Tywin, who was Hand at the time, was pushing for Cersei. But Aerys and Tywin had a lot of bad blood between them (including the fact that Aerys was in love with Joanna).
In part to spite Tywin...and thinking that they might have to settle for a Valyrian wife for Rhaegar...Aerys sent Robert's father (who was Aerys's first cousin) to Essos to find a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar. Aerys rejected all of the suggestions Robert's father tried to arrange. On the trip back, the ship sank, killing both Robert's father and mother.
And whether it's reasonable or not, Robert sort of held it against Rhaegar that his parents died on a mission for something for Rhaegar.
So Lyanna running off with Rhaegar was salt rubbed into old wounds.
@@janeathome6643 Then he would've loved Cersei, but he didn't. He loved lyanna because of how she looked and what she personified, because lyanna was a good fighter more impulsive than her brothers and he obsessed over that, he didn't care about possessions or whatever.
That last scene with Kathlyn Stark really cuts me deep every time absolutely amazing performance
I love that not only is Ned's reason for being against Danys murder is because he is also hiding a Targaryen, but it is also why Ned had misplaced empathy for Cersei and warned her before telling Robert of her children's parentage, because she was hiding their true parentage from Robert to spare Robert from killing them, and Ned was doing the exact same thing with his "son".
It’s not that Rhaegar didn’t love his wife, he believed in a prophecy he read when he was a little boy. He initially thought he was the prince that was promised, but at some point he understood that his child would be. Whatever he read he knew it would be from ice and fire. I believe he loved Lyanna, but it was also prophecy driven.
💯
He was convinced the dragon had to have 3 heads, so he thought he needed to produce an Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. Elia almost died giving birth to Aegon. Lyanna was supposed to have "Visenya."
And he was right. Jon is the Prince that was Promised....just cause D&D fucked up and gave it to Arya doesn't mean shit to me.
I loved Little Finger's face when talking to Sansa. However, my respect for Ned is even greater after this video. Little Finger knew Lyanna and Rheagar were in love, but he didn't know about the child. Only Ned and Howland Reed knew about Jon.
“A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing” really foreshadowed Dany’s wrath. She was robbed of two dragons, lost Jorah and Missandei and her boyfriend became her biggest contender for the crown. It wasn’t her genetics that did her in. It was her lashing out from the pain of her isolation and having a reptilian warhead with which to do it. 😢
Wow, her coin flipped mad what a shame.
Ned's the only dude in all of Westeros that can keep a secret lol. Best character in the show, hands down.
And his daughter is the Exact opposite lol😂...
Howland Reed and the midwives at the Tower Of Joy kept the secret as well. I think Littlefinger knew also but never saw an opportunity to use the knowledge for his own benefit and kept it in reserve. Selmy should also have known that Rhaegar and Lyana were in love but may not have known of the pregnancy.
@@dineshbalu6107 well Sansa is the daughter of Catelyn Tully 😂😂😂 both made questionable choices.
@@dineshbalu6107 Because unlike Ned, she can keep her head attached and use her brain, Ned was an idiot, thank god she didn't get his genes, even though Catelyn stark was also an idiot.
Yeah Ned was THE guy of the show!
@15:25 the gods did listen and granted her request to let him die. Then answered her prayer to let him live..... Just not when she expected, but much later in his life... At the Nights Watch.
Love how Stannis was the one who was most sold on the theory.
few people notice about that look of Littlefinger to Sansa
This is why I always tell new reactors to really pay attention to the dialogue. There are very few wasted lines. Everything means something.
You like a bad girl but need a bad... sorry couldn't resist.
@@uncletomcobley6950 LMAO took me a good 15 seconds to pause and understand that.
@@uncletomcobley6950 Ramsay: Do eunuchs have a phantom cock?
The scenes where Sansa tells Littlefinger that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, and Ser Baristan describes Rhaegar as the finest man he ever knew are from the same episode.
No, the episode with Barristan is early season 3, when they are considering hiring the Unsullied. The scene with Littlefinger is after the battle of the bastards, after they had retaken Winterfell. Semly was dead at that point
@@avon8794 You're right, I messed up. I was sure there was an episode that had conflicting reports of Rhaegar from Ser Baristan and someone else.
The scene where Barristan tells her that Rhaegar loved singing, not killing. Also love the call back in S7 when Dany says "we all love what we're good at" and Jon replies "I don't".
"Promise me Ned! Promise me!..." Leanna told Ned in her last moments.
Ned did and he never broke that promise.
“Does Littlefinger know the truth?” Littlefinger always knows the truth, and never tells it.
Sofie, your powers of deduction are incredible. The episodes are supposed to deceived people to get at one point a big surprise when things are revealed. You are brilliant at every step. You remember long gone details. You get emotional in all the right places. Is a pleasure to watch you react. I appreciate you doing PAUSE to analyze important events. And you do all this while looking beautiful... you have it all :)
Thank you for reacting to this! It is such a good encapsulation of all the little hints they provided. It was hinted in the books and so book readers were all over this theory while the show was coming out.
You are not stupid! You've caught on to almost everything more quickly than most reactors I've watched, and I've watched a LOT of them react to GoT. 🙂 Also, this is why GoT is so much to watch more than once. I know I pick up on new things every time I have done so.
If you go by the book, its not just selfish love which causes Rhaeghar to go after Lyanna but a prophecy where he wanted to save entire humanity
Watching this makes these scenes mean so much more!!
Jhon : but I am not a stark
Dragon : "flies above him", you're right
I get so emotional anytime Ned is brought up
Sir Alser Thorne was sent to the wall after the war due do his loyalty and fighting along side Prince Rhaegar. Thorne hated Jon Snow cause he believed him to be the bastard son of Ned Stark who was part of the rebellion against Rhaegar.
Oh the irony if Thorne actually knew who Jon was?
Something to keep in mind about Ned he kept quiet during conversations like the one he had with Robert, he never confirmed most the stories being told, and he never boasted or talked about his victories during the rebellion it was other men who spoke of these things whether they were actually there to witness or not. But in doing so others including his children believed whatever others especially loyal bannermen etc said about him because Ned didn't talk about the war or much about Lyanna and he never outwardly denied the stories being told. I think Robert like you said had a one sided love for Lyanna, they were arranged to be married but she didn't feel the same way about him. Personally, I think he never really knew or understood who she was as a person really but idolized her in his mind made her out to be something she wasn't, in fact her dying likely made those ideas of her stronger putting her up on a pedestal not seeing any of her faults viewing her as perfect. Knowing how wild and free spirited she was (like Aria is) she would have likely been more of an unsuited match then Cersei ever was.
As far as we know, Robert only ever met Lyanna the one time at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Same with Rheagarand Lyanna. Robert was more enamored by what he'd heard from Ned and seen at Harrenhal.
Ned and Robert were fostered by Jon Arryn at the Eyrie in the Vale. They grew up together like brothers, so Robert grew up hearing Ned talk about his wild sister, Lyanna. They were betrothed sight unseen. Lyanna had spoken to Ned about her trepidations due to Robert's rep for womanizing (he already had a daughter in the Vale). Then, after seeing his drunken debauchery at the Tourney, she didn't want any part of him.
At the Tourney, Rheagar sang a song that moved Lyanna to tears. After the mysterious Knight pf the Laughing Tree defeated three well reputed knights then disappeared, Rheagar was sent out by the Mad King to find the mysterious Knight (who all evidence points to being Lyanna), but returned with only the shield. The next day, after Rheagar won the tournament was when he gave the reef of blue roses to Lyanna instead of Elia.
After the tournament, she stayed in Harrenhal as guest of Lord Whent, whose son was one of Rheagar beasties and part of his constant entourage, so they could keep up communication inconspicuously That's how they arranged to disappear together.
Does Middlefinger know the truth? I think he does. The entire war was built upon a lie. But who's lie? My money is on Middlefinger.
The most likely place for Lyanna and Rheagar to rendezvous would have been the Inn at the Crossroads, which is also the most likely place Middlefinger would have been hold up on his way back to The Fingers after his duel with Brandon Stark. It was the year of the false spring. The mountain passes were snowed in and would have been impassable. He would have been awaiting the snow to melt to continue his journey.
He's there, being Middlefinger, watching everything, and being inconspicuous. He witnesses Lyanna and Rheagar meet and leave together. A day or so later in comes Brandon Stark on his way to Riverrun to marry Catelyn. He sees Middlefinger and stilling a rage after their duel he threatens Middlefinger. Middlefinger, thinking quickly, distracts Brandon by telling him he witnessed Rheagar *kidnap* Lyanna. Brandon immediately rides for King's Landing to confront Rheagar....and the rest....
It's possible Brandon's anger was more about Littlefinger having taken Lysa's maidenhood, Littlefinger might even have boasted about it, and might even have claimed it was Cat's maidenhood he took. A big reason for the duel might even be that Littlefinger thought Cat loved her, that it was her climbing into his bed instead of Lysa. Otherwise the theory does make a lot of sense
@@avon8794 I agree with you that I think there was some significant interaction between LF and Brandon where LF fed misinformation to Brandon that caused hot-headed Brandon to stomp down to King's Landing to challenge Rhaegar to a duel over Lyanna's honor.
But I think that came quite a bit after the duel between LF and Brandon.
Also, I thought LF was the one who challenged Brandon? for Cat's hand in marriage? And then Cat begged Brandon not to kill LF because it was a harmless "boyhood crush."
Also, if I remember correctly, LF's dalliance with Lysa happened as she was helping to nurse him back to health from his wounds from the duel. (And, though I'm reluctant to give LF the benefit of the doubt in anything, for all we know LF was taking milk of the poppy for his injuries and in his mind it truly *was* Cat.)
I get choked up everytime I see this video. Ned kept the secret to his grave. BTW Sofie, there has been a theory of mine that Little Finger was friends with Lyanna and Rhaegar and he helped them escape. Then he sent letters around telling lies about Rhaegar kidnaping and raping Lyanna. Which essentialy caused the war. Then when Brandon Stark went to King's Landing, Baelish could have sent a letter to The Mad King, passing himself as Brandon saying "we're coming for you!". Which made Aerys even more paranoid and chose to torture the Starks father and son.
@@carlogiurizzato2441 I was thinking about this as well about Baelish telling Brandon. The only thing is that Brandon hated Baelish so he would be on his guard before believing him. Unless Baelish does something which would piss Brandon off and then before Brandon would attack Petyr, Baelish would tell him this about Lyanna be kidnaped and raped. Brandon would be such in shock from that news plus the rage he already had that he may believe him.
14 year old Littlefinger was not friends with 21 year old Rhaegar or 16 year old Lyanna. Yes, LF was fostering in Riverrun with the Tullys, but he wasn't from an important enough family to be on either of their radar.
It's more likely that he twisted rumors he had heard so that Brandon would get himself killed in revenge for Cat and the fact that Brandon mocked him in their duel.
@@carlogiurizzato2441 Lyanna wasn't at Riverrun. She was at Harrenhall. She ran off before she was supposed to arrive at Riverrrun.
Whoops. That was a typo. Hahahaha. It was supposed to say "was not." This is why I shouldn't post messages when I'm sleepy. Comment is now fixed to better represent what I meant.
NOONE in the Seven Kingdoms knew that Jon is actual Targeryen Heir,apart from Ned Stark,becuse he we the only one who saw and took Jon.
Ned carried it with him into the grave. What an absolute CHAD
And Howland Reed.
@@jcompton8507 yep thats Meera's father!
@@anatos1722 Yeah...in the books, Jojen and Meera tell Bran the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree, which is the story of the Tourney at Harrenhall. Really don't know why D&D left it out of the show...
I think Ned was against going after Dany because she was a child, I don't think it has anything to do with him raising a Targaryen himself, he was disgusted by what the Lannisters did to Rhaegars kids which caused a rift with him and Robert.
it's always refreshing to see an emotionally intelligent reactor. a breath of fresh air.
Books(GOT), Ned's POV: Ned thought the betrothal was a good match. After all, Robert loved her. Lyanna looked at Ned sadly, Robert is Robert, and that's who he will always be. I will do my duty though and marry him. The young Lyanna was wiser in the affairs of the heart than both Robert and her older brother.
Jon is also the only one on the show who always chooses honor… in a way he was more honorable than stark
The Jon/Ned parallels are strong; Jon is Ned 2.0 and the Starkiest Stark.
@@janeathome6643 It's so interesting that the show went this route, since Jon is more of his own person in the books.
Does he strive to be honorable? Sure. But his motivation is more to prove people wrong about their beliefs about bastards being innately dishonorable than anything else...
Man which is a sad departure from book Jon, book jon is the best of both starks and Targeryns. He is extremely pragmatic, cunning and practical. Some of his ideas like the child swapping were genius, he keeps things from Stannis, he plays people against each other, he is a genius tactician and can be cruel and direct, including lying to people when its needed or forcing a mom to give up her new born baby even if there is a good chance it would be killed horribly
He is if Ned stark was pragmatic for the greater good instead of blindly following honor in each situation
Its sad the show went this way and made him a dumber copy of Ned, who goes - she's muh queen and i dont want it.
@@harish123az Yes! 100%.
A carbon copy of Ned made for a far less interesting Jon, and I don't understand why D&D thought this was the way to go with his character.
It shows another one of the million reasons I believe D&D only read Books 1-3 and didn't bother to really know the story or the characters after that.
@@harish123az Also, despite waiting 10+ years for Winds of Winter, I still can't wait to see how resurrection is going to affect his character. Because it _will_ change him in the books.
There is a theory that Maester Aemon *did* know who Jon was. Aemon was Jon's great, great uncle. Aemon's great, great uncle was a man named Brynden Rivers, bastard son of King Aegon IV. Brynden was better known as Lord Bloodraven. Lord Bloodraven was a Greenseer and Warg. Aemon was *very* close with Bloodraven. They, in fact, traveled to the wall together after Bloodraven was sentenced for murder by Aegon V. Bloodraven later became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch for 13 years before disappearing beyond the Wall to become the Three-Eyed Raven.
Even before he became the Three-Eyed Raven, Lord Bloodraven was a powerfull Greenseer and Warg. That's how he earned the nickname 'The King's Sorcerer'.
The theory is that Bloodraven saw Jon in his visions, knew who he was, and shared that knowledge with Aemon. Bloodraven already knew of Bran and his powers. He already knew of Euron Greyjoy and his abilities. Bloodraven/Three-Eyed Raven had been searching a long time through visions for other Greenseers and Wargs, which all the Stark children had inherent abilities. He would have seen Jon in his visions and been aware of his abilities.
Seems unlikely Aemon knew, because before he died he seemed to think Dany was the prince that was promised, after realizing the prophecy was gender neutral. Bloodraven likely figured it out, but more likely after becoming the three eyed raven
You should NOT feel stupid. You are a very intelligent, smart and "hint perceiving" watcher. One of the best.
Sofie i watch alot of reactors and your discussions/observations are chefs kiss!
Game of Thrones remains my favorite show of all time, rewatches just make it better and better 😅
I knew Robert didn’t love her when he told Cersei he couldn’t remember her face. She was the ‘one thing he wanted he couldn’t have’.
It had nothing to do with Lyanna. It was a fantasy in his mind.
Excellent reaction, glad that you reacted to this one.
There is a pattern.
The war of the five kings started because the Lannisters killed Jon Aryn (except they didn't).
Robert's Rebellion started because Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Leanna (except he didn't).
Lyanna may have been Robert's motivation to fight the Targs, but the Rebellion started because of the Mad King. Lords Arryn, Stark, Tully, and Robert were forming an alliance against Aerys for years before Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off together.
Also, no formal declaration against the Targ occured until Jon Arryn called his banners to protect Robert and Ned (his foster sons) after Aerys called for them to be turned in to him following his brutal execution of Rickard and Brandon Stark.
Lyanna and Rhaegar were just the catalyst for Brandon running off to King's Landing to challenge Rhaegar.
Alliser Thorne was a Targaryen loyalist from the Crownlands. He chose the wall over execution after Robert became king. Knowing how he treated and betrayed Jon.....how's that for a mind f***?!!!
I keep trying to remember that if Jon hadn't been treated so cruelly by Catylin, and everyone in someway or other, he wouldn't have the heart, compassion, feeling of loyalty, and leadership he manifested over all those years that set the pattern for his life...
Meh, GRRM clearly said Cat never treated Jon cruelly except one time which was the grief of a mother. He had a way way better life than bastards have in this setting and him living in a castle and interacting so closely with genuine heirs
@@harish123az - Perhaps. I'd say it's all in one's perception. Just knowing that you are being "set apart" is a difficult cross to bear, especially for a child.
Your last sentence has me confused as Jon IS a "genuine" heir.
@@harish123azthat's not true at all it's implied that she was mean to him several times over the course of his childhood thats why he fears even going into that room in the first place. Read that passage again and then again when he comes out to say goodbye to robb right after that he looks sad and Robb's first thought was my mother? Lol totally implies she's a cunt regularly to jon. If grrm really said this find the quote but it doesn't exist
Rasgar Targaryen was Ned’s Brother-in-Law by marriage. Danerys was Ned’s Sister-in-Law by marriage. Robert Baratheon was Ned’s best friend, but he wasn’t his blood. And Ned’s honor compelled him to honor his blood and try to protect Danereys and Jon. ❤
I had hoped you would watch this at the end of season six, but now I’m glad you waited. Seeing you piece it all together in the last video, complete with X-Files music (hilarious!), was well worth the wait.
Your observations about the show have always been brilliant and insightful. Don’t feel bad that you didn’t pick up on this- GOT is designed to lull the viewer into not questioning the prevailing historical account.
And this is one of the underlying themes of GRRM’s work: questioning the reliability of tales handed down to us.
Inspired by Tolkien, yes- but also written in reaction to Tolkien. The latter’s religious inspiration contrasts with Martin’s more existentialist POV. In his universe there are no certainties. The gods, if they exist, are morally capricious- look at Melisandre’s example. Without clear supernatural guidance, humans are left alone in an absurd universe and must create their own values.
I used to think that people should watch it after 6 and then I was like no there are 2 confirmations still to come, one very slight and one right on the head at the last episode of season 7. To me it's more powerful then. Like it is to her now b/c she figured it out herself first.
At last you watched it !👍😊 I loved your reaction, it HAD to be emotional.😢
The masterpiece George R.R. Martin is still writing is all about POVs and appearances, about impossible choices and their terrible consequences, about subtil clues scattered throughout the novels...
This is why Ned has always been my No1 character of the show and he was only here for 9 episodes.
Damned! I cried AGAIN even though I have watched this clip and reactions to it about a thousand times! The idea of how a simple lovestory can have so many bizarre events to follow, the writing of ASOIAF is simply a masterpiece
13:10 They also leave one of these out in this video. It was the episode when Jon lands at Dragonstone.
Tyrion: Starks don't fair well in the south
Jon: Yes, but I'm not a Stark...
Drogon at that very moment swoops in
it's sooooooooo good.
Drogon knows.
This vid was made after Season 5, so it only has clips from the first 5 seasons.
@@jcompton8507 this I understand. I am only referring to other hints that weren't be covered. Thanks though.
Maester Aemon is Jons Great Great Great Uncle Aemons Brother That took the throne Was Aegon the 5th then His 2nd Son took the crown and then his First son took the crown which was Aerys II (The mad king ) and He had 3 kids Rhaegar, viserys, And Daenerys, Rhaegar Had 2 Children with Elia Martel And I can't say anymore :)
Ned wanted to wait for Jon to be in the night's watch before he told him, that way Jon having no claim to anything wouldn't be a threat to Robert anymore when he found out he's the true heir. There's also thought that Benjin knows about Jon, as he tells Jon he doesn't know what he's giving up by joining the watch.
In the books the big rumor is that Jon's mom is Ashara Dayne, sister of Ser Arthur Dayne who Ned killed at the Tower of Joy. She is thought to have killed herself after Ned returned the Dayne family sword and some say a Stark brother (either Ned or his brother) took her virginity at the Haranhall tourney and that Ned was in love with her. Cat questions him about it once and he forbade her from ever mentioning Ashara's name again.
This is where characterization feeds plot. Ned is an honorable man stuck with a terrible secret. This upright, unshakable man bringing home his bastard is a massive slap in the face to Catelyn, so his “don’t fucking talk about this” attitude is seen as a righteous man’s shame, both to the reader and to the characters.
Ashara Dayne is brought up to bolster this misdirection. Catelyn gets scolded for mentioning her as Jon’s mother. We are meant to see this as striking a nerve because Ned feels guilty for his affair. In reality Ned’s reaction is probably caused by two factors: his love for and grieving over Ashara; and the fact that he doesn’t want any rumors about Jon’s parentage pointing to the Daynes, who very probably conspired with Ned in keeping this secret. You’ll notice that his cover story to Robert - the entire reason he has to hide Jon in the first place - is Wylla, a commoner. He also won’t elaborate to Robert, which we see again as shame and embarrassment for dishonoring his wife, rather than deflection to keep a secret.
We are given some hints, of course. This promise he genuinely struggles to keep for Lyanna, the seemingly respectful remembrance of Rhaegar, as well as how Jon looks so much like Arya - who in turn is told she looks so much like Lyanna.
@@jamesmswenko8292 There is also the fact that her family has some common Targaryen traits, hair and eye color. If Jon had looked more like Rhaegar it could have been explained with Dayne blood
@@avon8794 Yes, she and Arthur both had purple eyes.
And to support theories that the Daynes helped Ned with Jon...in the books, Ashara's nephew, who is called "Ned" Dayne, tells Arya that he and Jon are "milk brothers"? "Nurse brothers"? Whatever he called it, he said that he and Jon had the same nurse maid. (And was her name Wylla? )
@@jcompton8507 Wylla is correct, they're called wetnurses I think, and I think Ned claimed she was Jon's mother
@@avon8794 I haven't read the books in over a decade, so my memory is fuzzy on whether Edric Dayne stated as fact that Wylla was Jon's mother or if it was just what Arya assumed from the conversation.
The Starks were supposedly always most honorable. To quote House of the Dragon without spoilers: "There has never lived a Stark who forgot an oath"
Apart from the girls who kept what Jon told them secret for 30 seconds while Ned took it to his grave
Look at the visual clue in the shot with Maester Aemon and Jon. The colors are inverse. White hair on a black fur. Black hair on white fur.
Why do you think Jon happened to get the white direwolf with eyes of fire and blood? 😉
Where do you see the black hair on white fur?
@@Sandra071285 Jon's coat/cloak has a light fur collar when he is talking with Maester Aemon.
@@Sandra071285 on Jon, the scene still has his white shoulder fur because it takes place while Jon is still a recruit just before he says his vows and dons the black cloak of the watch.
Called "Ghost".
I always thought Ghost was more the colors of a Weirwood tree.... so his Northern inheritance and the Ice of the Song of Ice and Fire.
Sofie, please watch In Deep Geek's video "Robert's Rebellion Was Built On A Lie. Who's Lie?"
Makes you wonder how different things would have been if Lyanna had keft a note for Ned before running away!
Littlefinger had his suspicions about Jon's identity. Really anyone with intelligence and who really knew Ned would doubt Jon's identity. The same with Benjen, they don't give it to understand but it seems that he also had his suspicions or could even know but decided not to speak for Jon's sake.
Stannis also saw it as unlikely that Ned had a bastard, sad to know that Robert (his best friend) never doubted or suspected anything, being Ned's closest man. Robert did not love Lyanna, he was obsessed with her. They always said that Robert loved her and fought for her, but they never say that Lyanna returned his feelings.
I think the most discreet clue was in the first episode, Catelyn forbids Jon from appearing before the kings because it would be "an insult to show a bastard" - it wouldn't be until much later that these words would take on another meaning, Jon being the true heir and Joffrey a bastard, the ultimate irony.
I'm not sure LF thought one way or the other about Jon.
But he definitely knew / had opinions about Rhaegar and Lyanna, since he was at Riverrun recovering from his duel with Brandon for Cat when Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar.
LF being LF, I'm sure he knew much of what Lord Hoster knew...which was probably quite a bit, since he was part of the Alliance.
Selfish, perhaps. But, as they say: "Love is the death of duty". ❤
If Rhaeghar did it for a prophecy to save humanity (and the books make it clear he did), then its not selfish, its very much like Stannis sacrificing his daughter
Oh man...wish you would have waited for Season 7 to be over to watch this, but it was awesome seeing you catch this when Sam was in the citadel though...so many people miss it!
I think shes done with it on patreon
@@divinelangene6813 Yeah, 8.2 I think, but I noticed she watched it in the same place there.
To add one more scene: Jaime, in response to it being pointed out that he loves Cersei, he said "You don't get to choose who you love". A validation of Maester Aemon's "If you had to choose between duty and someone you love, what would you choose?" Rhaegar and Illya Martell was probably an arranged (possibly unloving) marriage too. Jon chose duty over Ygritte. Rhaegar chose Lyanna over duty. Tough choices are never easy.
Perhaps he was with Lyanna because of duty; the prophecy of the prince that was promised, a child of Ice and Fire...
HIs marriage to Illya was arranged, but also widely seen as growing into love. Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar (at the tourney at Harrenhal, but I think his interest in Lyanna was driven by his belief in the Prince Who Was Promised prophecy. It was his obsession (and not incorrect since the age of the White Walkers' return had finally arrived).
@@janeathome6643 My bet is that Elia was on board. We know that Dorne is more open to alternative relationships.
My gut feeling is that Elia was either bi or a lesbian. She and Rhaegar cared a lot about each other, but they weren't into each other.
I think we'll learn in the books (if they're ever published) that Rhaegar had Elia's blessings to pursue Lyanna.
Otherwise, it was a ballsy move by Rhaegar to take Lyanna to the Tower of Joy, which was in Dorne.
@@jamesmswenko8292 Part of me wonders if the reason Lyanna ran off with Rhaegar was partially due to prophecy as well...
I mean, it all started because Howland Reed unexpectedly showed up at the Tourney at Harrenhall...
Fun to watch. Thanks! You helped me track all through this. Been great!
roberts just possessive when he talks about her but never ones does anyone state lyana loves robert not even robert would claim so
*PROMISE ME NED*
In the 1st book there's a very somber sequence where Robert in his deathbed is pleading with Ned to take care of Joffrey. Before he dies last thing Robert says is " *PROMISE ME NED* ". But Ned hears that sentence in a female voice. It's so well written, it's hard to do justice. That was my first vague inkling. All through the 1st book Ned has a crisis of faith looking at Robert deteriorating on the throne, and asks himself if Robert really was a better alternative to the Targaryen Crown Prince. It kills Ned cause he starts to second guess everything he had fought for. In the process of winning the war he lost the Brother he knew. There's times when Ned is walking through the castles and wherever he goes he comes across these relics left by the Targaryens, which reminds him of Prince Rhaeger. The greatest dynasty is gone, but their imprint is still everywhere. Even as absolute masters of King's Landing, it's Ned and Robert who felt like outsiders there. It's all beautifully written and Ned's constant inner torment is impossible to do justice on screen. But that's when you start to wonder why is Ned feeling so guilty all the time? Maybe everything is not what it seems? It's that "chaos, a gaping pit" line from Varys. The victors kept telling lies about the vanquished so many times, they themselves forgot what the truth was. People say ASOIAF is the tragic love story of Rhaegar and Lyanna. But it's really A Tragic Love Story of Eddard and Robert. Back in the day ASOIAF forum had a funny thread where they listed every suggestive moment between Ned and Robert, including just the sheer number of times Ned thinks of Young Robert as "muscled like a maiden's fancy" and "every inch a king". Dude slick left his wife home to be with King Bob 😅
Obviously GRRM can go in a different direction with the Targaryen revealqtion in Winds as he has little choice but to do certain things differently. But regardless, the dilemmas of Ned around Robert, Rhaegar Lyanna and Jon is pure thematic excellence.
Fact! after Game of thrones, and having kind the same fate in Lord Of The Rings, Ned Stark, NEVER takes a role if he dies in the first season/part whatever. Kind of funny, but it's not. He is such a good actor, great voice, great interpretation. Sophie, i can hardly wait for you to finish the season. :) when is the next episode? Thursday? Monday?
It’s crazy how Both times that Ned stark decided to choose family over honour. It led to a War in the Westeros 🤔
You're far enough along in the show now to watch Westerosi Rhapsody..please please react to it you won't regret it 😊
I've watched this compilation many times now and just now realized that the last scene (that always seemed a little odd to me in this compilation) wasn't about Cat at all. It was about Jon living through a deadly situation twice, because someone (the lord of light) had plans for him. I am so stupid.
Not so sure about that, the scene wasn't in the book, and the existence of God's with a will, rather than it just being magic, is highly questionable. I see it more as being about the consequences of Ned refusing to tell Cat, and Cat's guilt about hating Jon for something that wasn't his fault
I agree. For me, there are couple of clips that don't really support R+L=J in and of itself, but do sort of support the narrative and give context to the lengths Ned went to to keep it a secret.
Alistair Thorne always hated Jon because he was the son of Ned Stark and Allistair fought for the Targaryens in the rebellion. If Allistair knew who Jon truly was, he would have loved him and been more loyal than anyome...
Thank you I have been waiting for this reaction when since you completed season 6 😁
Ned tells Jon that the next time he sees him, they'll talk about his mother -- because he expected that Jon would take the join the Night's Watch, and in doing so would be removed from politics, thus he would be able to then tell him the truth.
I don't think they knew (at least not all of them) but imagine the PRINCE winning a contest and choosen a woman to praise that is not his wife? that will be an awkward moment for everybody
12:50 funny thing about that line is that ned probably wanted to wait for Jon to take his night's watch vows before telling him the truth of his lineage. Because then he wouldn't have anymore claim to the throne, therefore posing no threat to Robert. Reason number 5 million of why ned is the realest mf in fiction in my book.
The thing with the scenario of Robert learning the truth of r+l=j is how his view of lyanna may change because she didn't reciprocate his feelings. And how that could've affected his and Ned's relationship more than the situation already did. There's a possibility he would've had Jon killed anyways.
Selfish love is the point. The new war was started on a lie too. And, a love that should never have happened between Jaime and Cersi.
There is an interesting theory related to the detail of Littlefinger looking at Sansa like he knew more about the story of Rhaeger and Lyanna then the kidnap and rape story that she had growing up hearing. After we get into the Game of Thrones story for a while we learn how much Littlefinger was behind setting the Starks and Lannisters against each other. Chaos is a ladder and all that. Well, what if he was behind some of the actions that led to Robert’s Rebellion? Remember Robert’s Rebellion was built on a lie! I’m going to throw out a bit of known history and an idea here.
Littlefinger was in love with Catelyn. He even fought a duel for her hand with her fiancé Brandon Stark. And he was greatly injured in the duel. After recovering enough to travel, Catelyn’s father sent Littlefinger away from Riverrun and back to his home in the Fingers of the Vale. Right around this time is when Lyanna went missing. She had been staying in the Riverlands area after attending the tournament where Rhaeger gave her the wreath of blue winter roses. She had stayed in the Riverlands while waiting to attend the wedding of her brother Brandon to Catelyn.
It is very likely that during his travels home Littlefinger stoped at the Inn at the Crossroads. It is a location where many things happen in the books. In the show it is the inn where Catelyn took Tyrion hostage. And probably the same inn where Hot Pie ended up working. If Lyanna and Rhaeger made any arrangements to meet-up, the Inn at the Crossroads would have been a convenient location. Right where Littlefinger could have overseen them.
In the meantime Brandon was staying at Riverrun after the duel and before his wedding. Lysa Tully turned out to be pregnant with Littlefinger’s child right around then. She had been offering him comfort after he was injured in the duel. And her father forced her to abort the child with Moon Tea. What would Brandon have done if he had learned that Littlefinger had gotten the sister of his fiancé pregnant, especially after he had fought a duel with him? Perhaps he went after Littlefinger. And if Littlefinger had overseen Lyanna and Rhaeger meet up, he could have told Brandon that Rhaeger had abducted her. It would have taken the heat off of him and caused mischief for Brandon. Because what we do know is that Brandon went to King’s Landing in a rage to demand that Rhaeger return his sister. But Rhaeger and Lyanna weren’t there. They had traveled to Dorne.
The Mad King then arrested Brandon and his companions. Which caused Ned and Brandon’s father to travel to King’s Landing to try to free his son. And what followed is what started Robert’s Rebellion.
This theory definitely has some ideas that would have to be proven accurate. But the timeline and location for all these things to happen is accurate. All the unknowns have been posed as a question. The theory is just suggesting that Littlefinger played a central role in the lie that started Robert’s Rebellion and suggests how that could have happened. We already know a lot of things that Littlefinger was behind and this fits his pattern. It could have been what taught him how much he had to gain by causing chaos. Here is a link that covers this theory in greater detail. ruclips.net/video/IoMoxg6iN-w/видео.html
Strange that some insisted on watching this b4 finishing season 7, it spoils the finale big reveal
Marriages weren't about love. They were social contracts for either political or economic gain. That's why romance was such a popular subject. It allowed people to life out their fantasies vicariously because their real marriages weren't based on strong emotional attraction. That's what affairs were for.
Don't apologize for pausing the video. We are here because we want to know your thoughts.
The very first episode, the dichotomy is set. Jon, the bastard, outside to avoid insult to the royal family. And he is the real royal family, and they are the bastards.
'A Story of Ice and Fire' is the series of books that 'Game of Thrones' is based on, and there's a theory about how Lyanna and Rhaegar met that's based on material from those books. The name of the theory is a few rows down because spoilers.
Over the years, as GRRM put out the books -- one book every 20 years or so -- fans formulated theories about things in the books. As more books were published, many of those theories turned out to be true. Some are still unproven one way or the other... just waiting on the final two books. The theory that's the subject of this video was called (R+L=J), and there was a lot of debate about it -- for years -- until it was finally confirmed.
So the theory about the circumstances that led to Lyanna and Rhaegar meeting is called:
... and it's only the name of the theory,
so you'll have to look it up yourself it you're interested, is:
The Knight of the Laughing Tree.
I believe that it was little finger who started the rumour, he told hot headed Brandon, just like he started the war between the wolves and the lions, I believe that he wanted Brandon to do something stupid so that he could get cat but she married Ned anyway.
Robery wasn't really in love with Lyanna I think he was more like in love in idea of loving Lyanna just like Cercei was in Rhaegar
Lyanna first was betrothed to Robert then met Rhaegar at Tourney at Harrenhal
After season seven, Jon Snow the White Wolf please.
Yes, yes, yes!!!!!
Did Sean Bean know Lyanna was Jon’s mother bc that scene when they leave each other as Ned leaves for KL and Jon to the wall and Ned says “next time I see you I’ll tell you all about your mother” and his voice cracks a bit - it’s like the actor knew
It's possible he heard the theory, but it's also possible he just acted the way he was told to act, being explained what Ned was likely feeling at the time
I believe he was told the backstory by the showrunners. Kit read the books before filming started and figured it out. Also, there is a an R+L=J carved into a wooden post in the interior at Castle Black, I think when Sam and Jon are scrubbing the table.
@@janeathome6643 Alfie knew as well. He said in a very very early interview (I think during S1) that Jon Snow was the show's Luke Skywalker.
Keep in mind, this isn't an actual thing in the books. Its hinted at, but because GRRM hasnt' finished the books, there is some question. Also, the last book introduces a character that could also be .... interesting...but I'll not spoil it here in case you decide to read the books.
A lot of people died for the secret kept by the honorable Ned Stark.
So if Rhaegar loved und did not kidnap nor rape her, but Robert went to war because of these lies, who told him this and why?😉
Nobody could make that connection from these scenes until it was revealed. Well, I'm sure someone out there predicted it. But it was written so that these seemingly unimportant scenes and dialog only become important after you know the truth.
This video was made in between Seasons 5 and 6, while we were all debating whether or not Jon could really be dead. The main argument we book readers made was that George built too much mystery around his parentage for his story to be over.
This is a very difficult issue to work through because it doesn't matter who sits the throne when the Long Night comes, and we don't know what Rhaegar knew. If Rhaegar knew that the Prince who was Promised would come from a uniting of ice (Starks) and fire (Targaryen), then what he did made perfect sense. The only issue to me is that he likely could have done this in a way that didn't put the throne at risk and also didn't piss off the Starks.
This is what I like so much about the story and also what makes it frustrating to analyze. You rarely know what information a character knows nor how they really think. The books don't narrate events. You get information through a character's eyes. You can probably trust that they are telling you accurately what is happening in real-time, but when you get a flashback from them or if they are thinking about a given event, then you really have to consider whether they really are in a position to know the truth of that event.
Plural marriage was also open to Targaryens and the Dornish are down with open relationships. It was a legal leaving of Elia if anything.
I've always suspected that Elia was in love with Ashara, so she was on board with Rhaegar finding his own happiness.
@@jcompton8507 I hope that gets explored or gets heavily hinted at in the story
the nodding , their weas theories in the book of hius mum being the sister allready and that theory just kept around till it was confiemed