The problem for me has always been improper labeling and the concern for trauma and taboo subjects being irresponsibly romanticized/normalized. Consuming it constantly creates apathy, it absolutely has an effect on yourself AND others. Young girls would pick up these problematic books and it would psychologically change what they find stimulating. Most of these 'dark romance' books aren't exploration of dark topics anyway, their focus is on the titillation of whatever fetish the author is writing. Books like these need to be signposted heavily and rated ADULT explicit.
yessss proper labeling is sooo important!! i read a horror novel once that everyone warned was super gross body horror (which i’m fine with) but NOBODY mentioned it was sexual body horror (which i have a lot harder a time with) and i remember being like ???? everyone and their mother recommended this book and no one included that in their review lmao
I've seen dark romances advertised at the front of book stores. I picked one up thinking it'd be fine cause the trigger warnings inside were given in a light hearted manner with jokes (they also weren't triggers that were personal to me). It was okay in that it wasn't gratuitous in the "dark" department but there was still rough sex scenes. It def should not be in the front of Barnes and Nobles with # booktok above it. It was also attached to another section that tweens and teens frequent all the time.
@ That's the thing too. Books are just lazily labeled in general. "booktok" is such a useless lazy label that doesn't define or filter anything for example. You really have to scour a forum of reviews or read the whole damn book to accurately judge the contents. In my opinion, that's so unreasonable for the regular buyer considering how regulated other media is.
i honestly think shes right. as 14 yr old, the amount of "dark romance" (which is really just abuse) ive read BY ACCIDENT when i was 12-13 is crazy. also the writing in these books is arse crack. the books have very little effort and are basically "corn". it is way too normalised in teen and young adult media aswell. if you want to read abuse "corn" just go to ao3
(sorry for the long post) I think the way dark romance is talked about and how the toxic men are idolized does contribute more harm than it seems to on the surface. I know that for me and a lot of other women who've experienced relationship abuse and deep trauma like the ones framed as romance in dark romance find the way it's talked about very triggering. I was in an online book group where women would post about how the guy from Haunting Adeline and other dr books were their "book boyfriends" and dream book guys. The comments were obviously a huge debate, but I found that one side was arguing to read what they want without being judged and the other side was saying that women irl and in these groups have been victims to treatment and violence like the kind they are idolizing and find the post and support very upsetting. I had to leave that group bc the mods banned any criticism against those books, but didn't ban posting about dr books in a general reading group. The treatment of the situation came across as people getting off to and idolizing the violence, but didn't want to be approached by their peers in the same group saying it's making them deeply uncomfortable and unwelcomed. There were other groups specifically for dr books btw. I fell into my first violent romance with a psychopath when I was just 15. I thought those early red flag traits were romantic specifically because of media and guys idolized in them. I can't imagine being 15 or even grown now and being a part of Booktok or that group and seeing women fantacize about a guy who was hurting me. It def would've convinced me to stay longer and that I should enjoy it. Read what you want but be mindful of the conversations you start and lift up. Perosonally though, it also icks me out to see authors making money off of mine and others most traumatic stories and to see publishers try to sell it back to us for profit, but that's a different topic. Again, read what you want but when you post/promote it you are making it bigger than just "your taste in books"
i’m so sorry that happened to you!! especially if the group isn’t made for that i definitely think just randomly posting idolizing the men in these books is sooo messed up and it’s crazy the mods were allowing it!!
I use books as I use all media, as a form of escapism. There needs to be that divide between reality and fiction. It’s like what Stephen King did with the book rage. When people started using that for their own actions, King removed it from the shelves. Just because I read a dark romance doesn’t mean I’m going to mimic the books, just like how I don’t mimic John Wick after watching those movies.
Aristotle's concept of catharsis is basically the process of purging strong emotions, especially fear and pity, through art. I'm starting to believe a major reason women love dark romance is bc it provides a catharsis for these women's fear of violent men and being trapped in a relationship with an absr. It helps explain why so many DV vctms say they love reading them: it "helps" them purge their truma. I say helps bc enjoying such a toxic headspace is, I think, in itself toxic. Dark romance is a temporary catharsis, not a long term recovery. If more dark romance writers were aware this and cared enough to care, they could try to help their readers like what Colleen Hoover did in It End with Us. I also believe that's why dark romance is not a good idea for younger ppl. Bc unless they need it as a quick catharsis for their own truma, it can be a traumatizing way for them to experience DV and SA for the first time. And then, as a result, some might seek out similar content to try to understand their new truma instead of talking to an educated adult or therapist. And I agree that judging and shaming these women is not going to help them. It isolates them more, which is how ppl become long-term vctms of dv and sa to begin with.
There are some books that have crossed a line for me that the judgemental part of me is like "Wtf" but in my head I know that the people aren't actually condoning the behaviors in the book. I do think Kris did kind of mess up by not sticking in that zone you mentioned and she seemed genuinely sorry and not aware of how she was coming off. I think the only time I have ever been totally against a dark romance book is when that person got their books pulled from amazon for writing about a gymnastics coach having a relationship with his 15 turning 16 year old student. I had several notable romance authors block me on twitter for saying I thought that was weird and crossing a line. She later revised the story to be about a 16 turning 17 which is still not okay to me. Also! This book came out around the time all the stuff with Larry Nassar was happening. People still defend it on the internet to this day. That is probably the one thing I will never get over.
Yeah! It’s the Balance series by Lucia Franco. It got pulled from Amazon and other sellers and she had to go back and revise it to make the main character older. She also changed the state the characters lived in to a state where 17 is the age of consent. Lucia Franco is also one of those “well technically it’s not P*dophilia” people which I think is always a red flag if you have to point that out. She still sells the original unedited books where the main character is 15. Most of the videos on booktok praise the series.
I 100% agree with you about young adult books that normalize/romanticize toxic and abusive behavior from partners. When it's for adults and fictional I don't really care about dark romance, but I'm against kids being able to read that kind of thing. This is just anecdotal evidence ofc, but I read a few books as a young teenager that contained a lot of boundary-crossing being treated like it's sexy, toxic/possessive behavior, dubious consent, etc. (including Colleen Hoover's first couple books, lol). And I do honestly feel that - along with other factors like depression, low self-esteem, isolation from friends, and not having healthy relationships modeled for me - taking in media like that contributed to me getting into an abusive relationship when I was 16 and not recognizing how bad it was. It wouldn't affect every kid who read those books, of course. But based on my own experience, I do think that for vulnerable kids, media that normalizes toxic/predatory behavior from partners can be dangerous.
I think I agree that the main problem here is thst Kris went too far with her judgement. It's one thing to say 'okay this is too much for me thematically' or 'this is imho badly written and thus i don't enjoy' and completely different to say 'a sane person can't enjoy it' / 'anybody who knows a thing about good writing wouldnt enjoy it'. People like stuff for variety of different reasons. Those who like X for reasons that you wouldnt think of are going to be mad for being thrown into the bag with 'the weirdos' (whoever that might be) and 'the weirdos' and here i mean people who happen to like something for a reason that you as a person find weird or strange or incomprehensible are only going to get offended, defensive and any possible discussion is going to die immediately
yeah exactly!! everyone’s different and everyone has their own reasons for enjoying things and just because someone likes a certain book doesn’t mean anything about them as a person
Totally off topic I know but I've been waiting for them to be in the background clearly again to ask.. Meredith.. where did you get your Glinda poster that's above your keyboard? .. You have a Jessica Rabbit and I want to say Princess Peach one as well.. but Glinda being in the bottom middle is the more visible one (especially in this video) I think they are stunning and would really love to know where you got them, cheers.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Some authors take it too far with the "idolizing toxic men" in their books, for sure!
Completely agree with everything you said!
The problem for me has always been improper labeling and the concern for trauma and taboo subjects being irresponsibly romanticized/normalized. Consuming it constantly creates apathy, it absolutely has an effect on yourself AND others. Young girls would pick up these problematic books and it would psychologically change what they find stimulating. Most of these 'dark romance' books aren't exploration of dark topics anyway, their focus is on the titillation of whatever fetish the author is writing. Books like these need to be signposted heavily and rated ADULT explicit.
yessss proper labeling is sooo important!! i read a horror novel once that everyone warned was super gross body horror (which i’m fine with) but NOBODY mentioned it was sexual body horror (which i have a lot harder a time with) and i remember being like ???? everyone and their mother recommended this book and no one included that in their review lmao
I've seen dark romances advertised at the front of book stores. I picked one up thinking it'd be fine cause the trigger warnings inside were given in a light hearted manner with jokes (they also weren't triggers that were personal to me). It was okay in that it wasn't gratuitous in the "dark" department but there was still rough sex scenes. It def should not be in the front of Barnes and Nobles with # booktok above it. It was also attached to another section that tweens and teens frequent all the time.
@ That's the thing too. Books are just lazily labeled in general. "booktok" is such a useless lazy label that doesn't define or filter anything for example. You really have to scour a forum of reviews or read the whole damn book to accurately judge the contents. In my opinion, that's so unreasonable for the regular buyer considering how regulated other media is.
i honestly think shes right. as 14 yr old, the amount of "dark romance" (which is really just abuse) ive read BY ACCIDENT when i was 12-13 is crazy. also the writing in these books is arse crack. the books have very little effort and are basically "corn". it is way too normalised in teen and young adult media aswell. if you want to read abuse "corn" just go to ao3
(sorry for the long post) I think the way dark romance is talked about and how the toxic men are idolized does contribute more harm than it seems to on the surface. I know that for me and a lot of other women who've experienced relationship abuse and deep trauma like the ones framed as romance in dark romance find the way it's talked about very triggering. I was in an online book group where women would post about how the guy from Haunting Adeline and other dr books were their "book boyfriends" and dream book guys. The comments were obviously a huge debate, but I found that one side was arguing to read what they want without being judged and the other side was saying that women irl and in these groups have been victims to treatment and violence like the kind they are idolizing and find the post and support very upsetting. I had to leave that group bc the mods banned any criticism against those books, but didn't ban posting about dr books in a general reading group. The treatment of the situation came across as people getting off to and idolizing the violence, but didn't want to be approached by their peers in the same group saying it's making them deeply uncomfortable and unwelcomed. There were other groups specifically for dr books btw. I fell into my first violent romance with a psychopath when I was just 15. I thought those early red flag traits were romantic specifically because of media and guys idolized in them. I can't imagine being 15 or even grown now and being a part of Booktok or that group and seeing women fantacize about a guy who was hurting me. It def would've convinced me to stay longer and that I should enjoy it. Read what you want but be mindful of the conversations you start and lift up. Perosonally though, it also icks me out to see authors making money off of mine and others most traumatic stories and to see publishers try to sell it back to us for profit, but that's a different topic. Again, read what you want but when you post/promote it you are making it bigger than just "your taste in books"
i’m so sorry that happened to you!! especially if the group isn’t made for that i definitely think just randomly posting idolizing the men in these books is sooo messed up and it’s crazy the mods were allowing it!!
I use books as I use all media, as a form of escapism. There needs to be that divide between reality and fiction. It’s like what Stephen King did with the book rage. When people started using that for their own actions, King removed it from the shelves. Just because I read a dark romance doesn’t mean I’m going to mimic the books, just like how I don’t mimic John Wick after watching those movies.
Aristotle's concept of catharsis is basically the process of purging strong emotions, especially fear and pity, through art. I'm starting to believe a major reason women love dark romance is bc it provides a catharsis for these women's fear of violent men and being trapped in a relationship with an absr. It helps explain why so many DV vctms say they love reading them: it "helps" them purge their truma.
I say helps bc enjoying such a toxic headspace is, I think, in itself toxic. Dark romance is a temporary catharsis, not a long term recovery. If more dark romance writers were aware this and cared enough to care, they could try to help their readers like what Colleen Hoover did in It End with Us.
I also believe that's why dark romance is not a good idea for younger ppl. Bc unless they need it as a quick catharsis for their own truma, it can be a traumatizing way for them to experience DV and SA for the first time. And then, as a result, some might seek out similar content to try to understand their new truma instead of talking to an educated adult or therapist.
And I agree that judging and shaming these women is not going to help them. It isolates them more, which is how ppl become long-term vctms of dv and sa to begin with.
yes such good points!! i totally agree!!
There are some books that have crossed a line for me that the judgemental part of me is like "Wtf" but in my head I know that the people aren't actually condoning the behaviors in the book. I do think Kris did kind of mess up by not sticking in that zone you mentioned and she seemed genuinely sorry and not aware of how she was coming off. I think the only time I have ever been totally against a dark romance book is when that person got their books pulled from amazon for writing about a gymnastics coach having a relationship with his 15 turning 16 year old student. I had several notable romance authors block me on twitter for saying I thought that was weird and crossing a line. She later revised the story to be about a 16 turning 17 which is still not okay to me. Also! This book came out around the time all the stuff with Larry Nassar was happening. People still defend it on the internet to this day. That is probably the one thing I will never get over.
woah what??? yeah i completely agree with you that book is not okay wtf
Yeah! It’s the Balance series by Lucia Franco. It got pulled from Amazon and other sellers and she had to go back and revise it to make the main character older. She also changed the state the characters lived in to a state where 17 is the age of consent. Lucia Franco is also one of those “well technically it’s not P*dophilia” people which I think is always a red flag if you have to point that out. She still sells the original unedited books where the main character is 15. Most of the videos on booktok praise the series.
8:30 is so real tbh the internet does not understand nuisance 💀
no frrrrr so many times i see “drama” on the internet where people have taken sides and the real answer is “it depends”
I 100% agree with you about young adult books that normalize/romanticize toxic and abusive behavior from partners. When it's for adults and fictional I don't really care about dark romance, but I'm against kids being able to read that kind of thing.
This is just anecdotal evidence ofc, but I read a few books as a young teenager that contained a lot of boundary-crossing being treated like it's sexy, toxic/possessive behavior, dubious consent, etc. (including Colleen Hoover's first couple books, lol). And I do honestly feel that - along with other factors like depression, low self-esteem, isolation from friends, and not having healthy relationships modeled for me - taking in media like that contributed to me getting into an abusive relationship when I was 16 and not recognizing how bad it was.
It wouldn't affect every kid who read those books, of course. But based on my own experience, I do think that for vulnerable kids, media that normalizes toxic/predatory behavior from partners can be dangerous.
i’m sorry that happened to you!! i’m glad you got out of that relationship!!
I think I agree that the main problem here is thst Kris went too far with her judgement. It's one thing to say 'okay this is too much for me thematically' or 'this is imho badly written and thus i don't enjoy' and completely different to say 'a sane person can't enjoy it' / 'anybody who knows a thing about good writing wouldnt enjoy it'. People like stuff for variety of different reasons. Those who like X for reasons that you wouldnt think of are going to be mad for being thrown into the bag with 'the weirdos' (whoever that might be) and 'the weirdos' and here i mean people who happen to like something for a reason that you as a person find weird or strange or incomprehensible are only going to get offended, defensive and any possible discussion is going to die immediately
yeah exactly!! everyone’s different and everyone has their own reasons for enjoying things and just because someone likes a certain book doesn’t mean anything about them as a person
❤❤
Totally off topic I know but I've been waiting for them to be in the background clearly again to ask.. Meredith.. where did you get your Glinda poster that's above your keyboard? .. You have a Jessica Rabbit and I want to say Princess Peach one as well.. but Glinda being in the bottom middle is the more visible one (especially in this video) I think they are stunning and would really love to know where you got them, cheers.
the artist is carlations!!! she’s awesome i highly recommend!
@@meredithnovaco absolutely going to check them out, thank you
Wiat what happened to Kallmekris
*wait
she got in some booktok drama!! nothing crazy i just found it interesting
Haha yeah, watched it through now ^^ Nice job, was pretty interesting!