What SWORDS did the MONGOLS use? Turko-Mongol Sabers
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- What swords did the Mongols use? An introductory look at Turko-Mongol swords (sabers). LK Chen saber featured: lkchensword.co...
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#mongols #genghiskhan #swords
I'm glad you made this video, there's not that much information about Mongol equipment and it's variety/history
There is some, but its mostly regurgitated stuff with little to no actual source evidence and fantasy pieces as examples of what the equipment looked like...
I too am glad that a channel such as this one is starting this topic, and I hope it spirals down the rabbit hole with other similar channels around :)
Obligatory plug for The Jackmeister's channel on YT. He engages heavily with the original sources and provides a lot of nuanced takes. His content is more on the academic side, but if you're already on Matt Easton's channel you could probably make the jump just fine.
Also, Jackmeister has previously contributed a lot to Kings and Generals' Mongol history videos (plus those for some other RUclipsrs such as History Dose.)
@@perrytran9504Nice! Thanks for this info, I'll be sure to check out that channel!
@@perrytran9504+1 for Jackmeister!
This is definitely true, as I feel like in general, the only Asian history that seems to interest people is Japanese history. Kinda sad though because then you neglect other countries’ histories like Mongolia and Korea.
This was really good! Thank you for the historical walk through while waving an amazingly gorgeous sword!
The historian jackmeister has a documentary on medieval mongolian smitging and heavy cavalry on YT. For anyone interested
One thing I'd add - when sabers were becoming popular in Hungary in the 14th Century it's actually a return to old traditions ;) Magyars (the cultural group Hungarians descend from) fought mostly as horseback archers, led a nomadic lifestyle and used sabers almost identical to the Avar ones. They only adopted (and very quickly too!) feudal european culture and fighting style after they were beaten back by Otto III, and were so impressed they decided to become like western knights.
Finally someone have shown right exact turco-mongolian sabre that being used for centuries acros the continent by nomad cavalry and not those ones that claimed to be "mongolian" sabre and having a fancy look of ninja style with massive short blade. God damn finally historical aproach to the subject. There are dozens graveyards accros the great steppe from Ukraine to West Mongolia that this type of sabres are found the most and what really unique is that they are all the same but from different eras
Thanks for this video, Matt...... Will definitely be useful as I'm starting up a White Scars army, so I'll be able to give them some unique melee weapons 👌
Correct me if I'm worng, but according to my knowledge both of the specific saber types displayed in the video (the mongol and french), served very similar purpose, which is a sword of light cavalary, as opposed to some other types of sabers used in history including the generations weapon that separate the two in time. Which would be very interasting, because I don't thing the people who developed modern sabers have access to savers other than contemporery, i.e. they had to do without knowledge that this particular form is most effective for light cavalary.
I would like to say that Hungary did not adopt sabers in the 14th century. The sabers were already in use at the 9th century and before since the Hungarians were originally horse nomadic group from Central Asia. The sabers were used from 10th-15th century but mainly at the Eastern Borderlines where there have been contacts with the Turkic groups (such as Ottomans, Pechenegs, Cumans, etc.) or the territories inside the Kingdom where there were settlements of Turkic people. But ofcourse they were not that popular, only mainly in the 16th century the sabers came back in use when the Ottomans conquered middle of Hungary.
Would i rather have a powerful chopper, or be better at thrusting? The big philosophical questions
Great information, very enjoyable
What about Japan?
Japan seems to follow the Chinese in the transition from jian-type to straight dao-type swords, with the katana having its origin in straight Tang-dynasty dao brought from China. But, the Japanese eventually curved the blades. Though they famously weren't conquered by the Mongols, it seems likely that either directly or secondarily via Chinese forms, the Mongols would have impacted Japanese designs. Perhaps the Mongols are what influenced the Japanese to curve what had been straight dao-based swords. Or perhaps they were influenced by Chinese swords which were themselves influenced by Mongols.
If nothing else, simply saying that the transition to dao from jian was influenced by Mongol and other Turkic groups, does imply a huge impact on Japan, as the typical swords of Japan seem to descend from the very dao which came to prominence in China.
Look up the Emishi and Ainu swords, they wee the prototype katanas but they were probably turko-mongol blades originally compared to the Yamato jians and daos but the details are unknown.
@@akumagouki8668 Highly doubtful. Emishi blacksmithing was not similar to Chinese or Mongol blacksmithing so that connection is unlikely.
jesus !! these turks were crazy, they made horde to all of known world at that time.
i was hating thoose swords and love European straigth swords for simetry until Lord of The Rings, love thoose elvish swords
I've been meaning to ask, could you explore swords in India and the Middle East during the European Middle Ages?
It makes one wonder whether the mongols would have liked the more complex hilts of 19th century sabers.
:)
Ooh!?
Charlie main
:)
Kazakhstan 🇰🇿 Kyrgyzstan 🇰🇬 Azerbaijan 🇦🇿 Uzbekistan 🇺🇿 Turkmenistan 🇹🇲 Tyrkiye 🇹🇷 tek Qana ALGA!
That's the most oddest looking Mongol saber i have seen. Looks like a slightly curved double edged sword. Also, how did you forget to mention the earliest sabers have been found in the tombs of Xiongu & Xianbei people as far back as 5th century BC?
Do you have a reference source like an archeological paper or something for the 5th century BC Xiongnu iron saber?
@@thescholar-general5975 Not a paper but i found this on Wikipedia;
_The earliest examples of curved, single edged Turkish swords can be found associated with the late Xiongnu and Kök-Turk empires. These swords were made of pattern welded high carbon crucible steel, generally with long slightly curved blades with one sharp edge_
@@GreaterAfghanistanMovement I see, technically the late Xiongnu early Kök-Turk would be more like 5th century AD and not BC. The wikipedia article does cite the following paper in turkish:
Ögel, Bahaaddin, "Türk Kılıcının Menşei ve Tekamülü Hakkında"
Thanks for leading me to this! I will dig into it sometime later.
@@thescholar-general5975 Late Xiongu period at the latest is 1st century CE. The first curved swords appeared in the BC period, i find the 6th century to early.
@@GreaterAfghanistanMovement You need to have a real citation with archeological evidence to support that claim if you are going to persuade me.
4:37 France took that sword design from ottoman lands, later on even USA took same design from ottomans lands.
Hello, types of Mongolian armor and weapons, history of the development of weapons and armor of the Ottoman Empire, adaptation to the battlefield in Europe and the Middle East.
i remember arguing with someone in the comments section once because they kept insisting that Mongols were 100% horse archers
It’s amazing what video games do to modern historical understanding. I can’t think of anywhere else this could come from besides as a way to balance them in video games. Perhaps misinterpretation of a history book too?
@@Subutai_Khan the argument started because they claimed no "ninja" would fight like a samurai, i said that probably no two samurai fought the same either. the response back was something like "NO all samurai fought like samurai just like all the Greeks used phalanx warfare and the Mongols used horse archery" so therefore i must be wrong in asserting that samurai didnt all fight the same. mostly they just called me names lol
IF you want to divide up all human combat into one thing, "human combat", you can; just like you could divide up "Mongol combat" or anything else. i am pretty sure they were arguing just for the sake of arguing to make up for something in real life
@@beepboop204 Sounds like the guy got his history lesson from Ghost of Tsushima lol. Must have been a fun time.
Even if they were 100% horse archery they still would have swords and daggers as back up weapons or battle axes maces or war hammers for some units or troops against armored opponents
@@markbennett5812I had a more demeaning version of this directed at me regarding Korean history. I get that archery was the big thing but no army is made of archers without anything else
In 10th century Hungary where the archaeological documentation is very rich, there was a sabre in every warrior's grave, so we have hundreds of them of the exact type you see on the so-called "Charlemagne sword" in Vienna often with abundant gilded silver decoration of palmettes in the case of higher status ones, which is a type of decoration they already had on their sabres when they were still around the southern Ural mountains. So Hungarians knew quite well about sabres well before the 14th century and it is actually the standard sword that they were using when they made their incursions into Europe. When they were forced into christendom in about 1000 AD, they more and more adapted Western straight swords and ways of fighting. Most scholars believe that the sabre was not entirely abundened however, but was held in a secondary position for light troops and archers because recurved bows weren't abandoned either, although this is still debated as after christendom far fewer weapons were actually deposited into graves, but there seems to have been a certain continuity in the shadow of the new knights of German origin.
Unsurprisingly, as the Hungarian tribes were indeed one (or seven, if you prefer) of the Turkic-influenced groups referred to in the video that arrived from Central Asia at the start of the 10th century
" *forced into christendom* "
Forced?
i'm hungarian and i concur. We swapped to straight sword when we settled in the Carpathian basin.
To be able to establish a country in Europe at that time, you had to convert to their religion, otherwise your would be country were not recognized at all and wars or crusade followed. In case of Hungary, the would be king Stephen had to request a crown (=the right to establish a kingdom) from the Pope@@bakters
@@bakters There are sources to support that Christendom was not spread by kisses and hugs in Hungary. Civil wars continued against the king way after Stephen Ist death to return to pagan traditions in the 11th century. Several priests were executed, including the bishop Gellért on the rock you can still see in Budapest above the baths "Gellért" according to tradition. Kings had to compell with the pagans just to keep their power before bringing back the priests and striking at them again.
Xcuse me, I always Iove the content, but must absolutely correct here: the "Charlemagne sword" or "Attila sword" of the Vienna Schatzkammer is a typical Hungarian sabre from the 10th century for which many parallels are known from Hungarian pagan warrior graves, not an Avar sword. Hungarian and Avar are two different people who lived in the same Carpathian basin but at different times. The Avars had first straight very long swords with just one cutting edge. Avar sabres date to the late Avar period (about 670-8th century). Pagan Hungarians theoretically settled down only in 895 and their culture is mainly 10th century. In between these the 9th century is pretty much under documented, but there were a lot of Slave tribes and probably remnants of the Avars. In my opinion the so-called "Charlemagne sword" was a gift or perhaps even a war buty taken by the German emperor Otto Ist who stopped the Hungarians at the battle of Augsburg in 955 and had executed several prominent Hungarian princes who took part in the expedition and probably took their valuable weapons too. It was never under ground so is exceptionally well preserved and an astonishingly beautifull weapon.
карл твой был в подчении какой он великий это смешно 😂
Arguing that Ottomans took sabers from Mongols is quite a stretch. Seljuk Turks had already occupied Iran, Levant, and Anatolia in the 11th century, about 150 years before the arrival of Genghiz Khan. Anatolia was already populated with Turkic tribes and clans by the time Genghis Khan arrived. Thats why you start seeing sabers in the East Roman arsenal much earlier than Genghis Khan.
I did not mean to imply that the Ottomans took sabres from the Mongols - rather they both had sabers already from Turkic origins and there were design elements that influenced each other.
Indeed, i think the first 'official' relations of the Eastern Romans with the Mongols are the 2 treaties with the Blue Horde (urals, the Blue Horde is the Eastern Part of the Golden Horde) and the Ilkhanate (persia). Essentially the 2 Khaganate Leaders get a princess & recognized as true heirs of Rome.
In practice, the Ilkhanate Horde (mainly) & the Romans destroy the Seljuk Turks.
More specifically, the Roman princesses enjoy great prestige, especially the princess that goes to the Ilkhanate. Btw Mongols were practicing tolerance against religions.
So the christian Princess (Maria Palaiologina) was promised to Hulagu Khan, but he dies before they arrive, and thus is maried to his son, Apaqa Khan does charities etc & gets really really famous. She was extremely influential in Mongol politics, as most Mongol subjects were Nestorian christians. Her Mongol name was Despoina Khatun, ie Lady Khatun)
After the death of the Khan (Abaqa Khan, 1234-1282), she returns to Constantinople where she establishes a church.
To this day there is a church in Instabul (Maria Mouhliotissa or Saint Mary of the Mongols), this church has not been turned into a mosque due to a treaty with the Ottoman Sultan.
Simply fascinating story.
Lastly i want to add that the slavic word for Mongols is Mogyla & the Byzantine word for Mongols does take from Mogyla. You can spot this connection into the 'Mouhliotissa' word.
Genghis Khan has a Turkic name Temürchiñ, Temujin is chinese pronunciation. Mongol Empire was 80% Turkic warriors at least. Modern Mongolians are closer to Tibetans and Manchus culturally and linguistically.
Turko-Mongol is saying like Turko-Turk. It’s redundant.
@@Qazaq_Qiyat_1465 Its not redundant because the Mongols did have different customs & they do have different language (different language family). The Turko-Mongol tag is reserved for the Mongol people who were Turkicised in the 14th century, especially in the Successor Stares, abandoning Mongol religion (but not Mongol law) & adopting Turkic languages. I have to point out however, that Mongols were very tolerant with other religions & thus were influenced by older religions (Christianity, Nestorian Christianity, Islamism, Confucianism, Taoism etc) even though Genghis was a follower of the Old Mongol ways.
@@Qazaq_Qiyat_1465 I also have to add that Turkic describes many different tribes, with different customs. These Turkic tribes also fought with one another as well. With that distinction the term Mongol-Turkic is more apparent. This is also why the term Seljuk Turk or Ottoman Turk appears, even though Seljuks have more in common with Ottomans, than Mongols.
The saber was always in use in Hungary. It wasn't just adopted in the 14th century. It is true that around 1000 AD the straight-double edge swords where introduced here but sabers remained but mostly with light cavalary. It never really fell out of useage.
hungary is also turkic thats why ... turkish cav sword is saber its the first curved sword used in history i can argue on metal quality probably iron age europian swords are better made coz of quality of iron but i dont know at the seljuk and ottoman era turkic swords become the finest coz of damascus steel technique there is also a sword called yatagan for infantry its curved to opposite side. and used for chopping limbs shields and against armored opponents.
@@GoldandPearl Hungarians are a Ugric speaking group of people with strong Turkic influence, nothing more.
@@alikuzyaka2152 they are turkic and apprntly you are arab :D
@@GoldandPearl Hungarians are not Turkic. They has Turkic influence on the Steppe. But they were not Turkic.
12:50 One obvious influence, from the Avars in this case, is the Byzantine paramerion. It's essentially one of these with a Byzantine crossguard and ball/nut pommel.
Edit: Oh, you mention it at 16:30 lol
Good ideas get around. The earlier Seljuk/Mongol bows are similar, as are the later Ottoman/Mongol bows. Put a handguard on a Shaska, or take it off the Turko-Mongol saber, you have similar swords.
It's been a while since I looked into chinese warfare and sources, however as far as I remember the popularity of the Dao predates the Mongols, and it's a very common sword in use in the Tang dynasty and the Song dynasty. It is possible it's popualrity can be attributed to the Turkic Khaganate and it's subsequent defeat by the hands of the Tang dynasty, although I am by no means sure this is the case either.
Dao in those periods tend to have straight spines however, unlike latter designs which introduce curves.
iirc the straight dao with the ring pomel came around the late han era.
Also, keep in mind that the Tang, we’re Turkic in origin. They just adopted Chinese manners and institutions a little more gracefully than the Mongols did.
@@cal2127 Yeah that sounds right, either late Han or Three Kingdoms/Jin period. However I think that by that point the Jian was still more popular, although I could definitely be wrong on that.
@@evanmorris1178the tang were NOT Turkic in origins. The founder of the tang dynasty although swore brotherhood to a Turk was not one himself.
@@hiimryan2388Li Yuan, the founder of the Tang and his cousin, Emperor Yang of Sui were descended from sinicized Xianbei nobility (known as the Dugu sisters).
Sabers are pretty great
Vince Evans reproduced at least two Mongol Sabers that I know of.
They we're designed by the Curator/Conservator Philip Tom.
Both designs we're based on archeological artifacts found from the 1223 Battle of Khalka in Russia. I believe Scott Rodell tested one of the sabers.
8:30 Other early Hungarian /Avar sabers has this design as well
that sword design took the most lives.
means I guess most effective 😶🌫️😉
I would say just the the arabic armies in the crusades used straight double edged sword while the turkic ones definitely used curved swords.
I do like the look of the off white Ash grip, I originally mistook it for some sort of horn material. I generally change my grips to mammoth ivory because I like the look and feel of ivory but don't want to help stimulate a market for modern elephant ivory.
Hippo ivory is excellent as well.
Is mammoth ivory particularly expensive?
When people ask, "what is the best kind of sword?", the answer is that they are asking the wrong kind of question.
If someone asks, "What is the most practical kind of sword for most people in most kinds of situations?", I think there's a pretty solid argument to be had for swords similar to this in form and function. It seems like a whole lot of people in a whole lot of different places at a whole lot of different times all ended up developing something similar to a saber, and they were almost always highly popular and effective swords. Could be one-handed or two, could be double edged or single edged, could have a complex guard or a simple guard. But it seems like a lot of people would end up landing on a long, narrow, slightly curved, cut-and-thrust blade.
And somehow I still haven't gotten one for myself
Curved swords are a bit easier to make & maintain, thats why they were used a lot from nomadic people.
No, the answer is sabres.
I bought this exact sword from LK Chen in December. Still waiting for it. So excited! Thanks for the upload
More mongol stuff please!!!! ❤
it makes sense if the mongols were using shorter swords -- their horses were shorter/middling sized for the most part. The true power of them came from the cooperation of the arms (especially horse archers) and the military discipline they instilled through all their branches. Feigned attacks were the norm, hit and run, parthian shots, followups and only when the enemy was broken did they pursue. They knew what they were doing, and knew it well. There is of course more to it than a three line paragraph can summarize, but I think this looks correct, and the curvedness makes complete sense from a later point of view as well -- the curve was allegedly for making its use easier for cavalrymen.
Curved swords also are easier to make/maintain.
What's lesser known is they aren't a hodge podge of multi ethnic ppl. The core monogols warriors are fathers and sons, uncles and nephes, brother in laws. If it was not safe, tell your bgrother in law, fall back BIL, sound judgement saves reckless battles. att he same time, when corneded with half his family deaad at their feet, and the other half is clinging for dear life; this is where you find your 5 men surrounded by 5K pile of enemy soldiers, and don't know if you should cry for their bravery or weep for the stupidity of the enemy. This ame mentallity was then extended to tothe rethnicityes who definitley appreiciated 9it since no other army treated you like equals, not even here in America . So the Mongols are truly a diamond in the annals of history.
Crazy how popular the mongols are but we don’t see their weapons outside the compound bow ever mentioned or shown in videos.
Despite how large their empire was, some parts are not so well documented compared to others. Surviving specimens of equipment are uncommon just as in other places of this time period, and written sources while plentiful are difficult to study because they are in multiple languages (since you know, the Mongols interacted with highly diverse civilizations.) But there is a good amount of written description of what kind of things they used, and Persian artwork is particularly valuable to see what they actually looked like. Still not easy for modern armorers/bladesmiths to reconstruct anything and there probably aren't as many people commissioning it anyway.
I am glad to see Turko-Mongol Sabers and their influence on later swords is talked, hopefully we will see more of them.
The Sword Chad is here🗿🗡💯
Would be cool to see a video on Byzantine swords. Don’t see many replicas out there
The Romaic Sabre, or Paramerion (it means by the side or by the hip) is essentially a modified version of the Avar sabre. It would be hanged by a belt or a shoulder strap.
The Paramerion is essentially a single-edged sword with a slightly curved blade towards the back.
You can thrust decently with a Paramerion.
The Paramerion is also conflated with the Makhaira, a falchion/falx like sword that is usually longer and heavier.
The primary advantage of curved swords are that they are easier to make (less forging, means less flaws in the blade) and easier to fix in the hardening/tempering (deviations can be ignored, this is very important for curvature/straighteness)
Your Saber is LK Chen imitated Mongolian Yuan Dao.
Mongolian Sabers of this style have been unearthed in many ancient Chinese canals.
Matt; I recently purchased an excavated example at Auction. Blade is intact though the pommel has separated. I’d be happy to send you dimensions and photos, since you are “gathering information”. I live in Minneapolis, and have been friends with Arms and Armor since they started. Planning on having them make me a reproduction blade, so I can practice with it.
Curved swords were also quite common in Hammerfell.
Those Mongols really got _everywhere_ 😁
@@ArkadiBolschek Gimme a new race for Elder Scrolls 6 inspired by them. Last time we had a new playable race was all the way back with orcs in Morrowind.
@@perrytran9504 In the various time periods the games are set, the only major races knocking about on Tamriel are the ones you can play. You would have to go much further afield to places like Akavir. Atmora would just have more Nords, Yokuda sunk into the ocean in the First Era. Pyandonea has the Maormer on it, but they're just fish elves, and also featured in ESO. If TES6 isn't on Akavir, which it probably won't be, then you're stuck with Imga, maybe Reachmen.
They also have curved swords. Curved. Swords.
Man this is right up my alley as a self-proclaimed “Khanaboo”. I found it interesting in my own reading how Carpini, an Italian writer also pointed to the importance of the axe to the Mongols. Given how often they are used in Asia and Europe as horseman’s weapons, I suppose it’s not surprising but not a weapon we often associate them with. Not to undermine the sabers importance of course and it is quite possible to carry more than one type of sidearm on the saddle.
“Khanaboo” 😂 tbh that explains alot of mongol history fans
As fokos, those were also wielded by old Magyars.
I read somewhere that they also carried a mace 🤔
@@garywheeley5108 The more well-off Mongol lancers did often carry maces yes (as well as swords.) Remember also the point Matt made about the Mongols having a huge empire too. That means equipment varied quite a bit too :). Maces in general are pretty common Indo-Persian weapons as well which is an area of the world the Mongols ended up in as well. Plus you had vassal troops who could have all sorts of equipment.
@@Subutai_Khan just thinking of the logistics of producing sabres or any swords in quantity on a campaign stretching thousands of miles across Asia getting the steel and fuel for smelting I would have thought anything but swords would have more bang for the effort involved axe spear lance mace even arrows could be made from flint bone etc how plentiful was ore coal charcoal wood etc on the steppes ?🤔
One question: you mentioned the black thing on the blade (the "tunku"??) at about the 10:00 point in the video - but you never told us what it actually does, and what purpose it served.
it helps with securing, although very slightly, the blade to the hilt
it also helps with fitting on the scabbard, so its held more securely
and... it looks nice
Did these steppe swords influence later swords or is it that a curved blade (one of the minuscule options in blade types) is better for unarmored-horse combat and arrived upon by anyone engaged in this form of battle? I think the latter. Like in nature, convergent evolution/ideation is incredibly common in human history.
We could say that except for the fact that theres a ton of evidence of DIRECT heritage from turko-mongol sabers to drastic changes in sword types in the cultures they interacted with. European sabers, Indian and middle eastern sabers and chinese sabers all are pretty heavily linked to mongol influence.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge... I so wish you would talk about the function of those features... every time I think your about to get to the real interesting part about why they have those characteristics and how they used them, you tend to over elaborate other topics.... still though, thank you!
I will come back to these. They are very interesting swords and were hugely influential on so many cultures.
@@scholagladiatoria Will you touch on some Korean swords? I know they are designs of their neighbors incorporated into existing sword types but I would like to hear your thoughts since you provide a non biased view.
@@scholagladiatoria just to be clear, I am grateful you take the time to share your expertise with us and I always enjoy listening to your stuff, hope you have a good day sir!
These things don't get enough credit... Kinda anywhere 🤷🏻♂️
They are a huge part of (military) history and they did influence a lot of other swords.
However this is the first video I've seen about it.
# Sweet! 👌✌️
LKChen has one now! Ach, on more on my serious to-buy list!!
Turkic mongol sabers --> eastern and central european sabers --> modern european military sabers...wow, the grand daddy indeed.
Straight-backed Dao started to become the primary military sword back in the early iron age Han Dynasty, they are almost alongside bimetallic bronze jian. The earliest Turko-Mongol sabers are well after the straight-backed dao was popular in China. After the Yuan Dynasty, Chinese dao start to look like Mongol swords, but the Mongol swords may have been descended from Chinese dao in the first place.
Korean swords followed this with using the Chinese styles of straight backed swords and getting more curved due to Mongols and other groups. Afterwards, they became more influenced by Japanese designs following the Wokou raids and the Imjin war. As far as I recall. Korean swords end up pretty similar in dimension for awhile in terms of degree of curvature and in size. Basically looks like a katana mixed with this sword which is basically what happened. Again, as far as I recall.
I would say that the Han dynasty dao is another sword that could have steppe origins or influence. For quite a chunk of the Han dynasty it was dominated by the Xiongnu. I haven't been able to find any depictions of Xiongnu swords unfortunately, though I have found references to finding swords in Han graves that were either Xiongnu style, or decorated in the Xiongnu style. And I have also seen references suggesting that Han Dynasty and Xiongnu swords were very similar. Unfortunately I can't give more information... there are so many articles that would be very useful if I knew Chinese or Russian...
I would like to add that the straight, ring pommel dao itself derives from earlier (bronze) knives that were popular from Central Asia all the way to East Asia. I have seem examples of ring pommel bronze knives from Central Asia long before ring pommel dao is a thing.
@@gedmerrilin9010pls translate it bcs my English is bad：汉代前期一直是使用的剑，刀的起源是日常生活中使用的青铜短刀的放大加长，而青铜短刀的造型则可以追溯到商代的“刀币”了，所以我不认为环首刀收到了匈奴的影响，不过我认同中文互联网世界有太多的刀剑资料不为人所知了，真是可惜，希望lkchen和matt能为中文世界资料的交流学习努力❤
Straight single edge swords already showed up much earlier than in China. I'm not exactly sure of the first known location tho.
I mean... "outskirts of Europe" for early sabers isn't that accurate. From about 9th century you have a fairly well attested sabers from Baltics through Poland and Hungary to the Balkans - enough so that we see some regional variants. Hungary sees an uninterrupted use of sabers until they get replaced by the assault rifles, we find them in pre-Christian graves as well as later art (e.g. Chronica Picta ~1330-1370). Hell, we even have a fusion of the European sword trends and sabers and get the bastard sabre, whose name is now apt twice! (one is in Budapest's National museum, you see them in aforementioned Chronica Picta) And yeah, this may well be where the inspiration for krieges messer comes from, but it is impossible to prove either way.
It should be noted, though, that while probably not used exclusively by the nomadic mercenaries or nomads settling in these kingdoms, the sabres were definitely *associated* with the nomads. Chronica picta shows these sabers in nomad hands exclusively, although that may well be because the people ordering it were Italian (Naples branch of Anjou family) and wanted "their" people equipped with the new swaggy gear from their cultural circles.
About shashka… in Russian speaking circles of experts it’s widely believed that it came actually from a knife, probably, agrarian vine cutting knife that eventually grown up to a sables size. Yet it’s very different than a sable in its balance and thus technique of use
According to my understanding, these type of sabres did not vanish from Central-Europe after the collapse of the Avar Khaganate. Other turkic or turkic-influenced pepople used them as secondary weapon like Bulgars, Hungarians, Pechenegs, Cumans (the latter two were employed by Hungarian kings as auxiliary forces). It was the dominant weapon of light cavalry in this part of Europe throughout the middle ages, the mongols has nothing to do with that. In the 15-16. century sabres became the weapon of Hussars and spreaded to Western-Europe through Hungarian and Polish emigrants.
Straight and double edged swords of Muslims are Arabic type swords. After the Turkic invasion of middle east, with Seljuks, Ottomans and Mamluks Turkic sabre and its Late form Kilij and Shamshir became popular. Pala is a much later version of Kilij, it's shorter, broader and has more sharp curve.
15:30 the Mughals hated being associated with the mongols they preferred to be associated with their ancestor Timur the lame and the Turks and it's weird since Timur himself WANTED to be associated with the mongols
This is completely unrelated, but I've always wondered if a fully armored and equipped late medieval knight would be nearly invulnerable to zombie attack. Maybe for a Halloween special or something, could you cover this? Thanks!
I think Skalligrime did a bit on that some time ago. Search his back-catalogue.
Full plate with minimal openings, ie the type of plate armor that can only work with the help of a servant?
It would really depend on the kind of the zombie, as there are movies/games when the zombies are quite strong and can destroy wooden doors. In such a case the knight will have concussion & multiple bruised/broken ribs.
Other than that the knight has to be careful of zombie hordes/swarms, because the zombies will pin him down. They wont do that much damage, most likely bruises from being pushed by so many bodies, maybe difficulty breathing, and the knight will be heavily pinned by so many bodies. Maybe the face visor opens with all the zombie flailing around, if that happens things will be life-threatening.
But the zombies will be restless 24/7 and wont be tired, so its just a matter of time, as they have all the patience of the world (unless its the night of the living dead).
13:15 That’s interesting, I had thought that the curved sword of the Mongols was influenced by the Persians but it’s the other way round. Now when we thought of Muslim swords, we thought of very curved swords, who would have thought they weren’t before the Mongol invasion.
Matt's presentation is as excellent as we expect and demand but if you want to learn more about these Mongols and their propensity for crossing unfordable rivers, taking your army by surprise, destroying them in the field and depopulating your country by 70% so there will be enough grazing land to feed their horses so they can get to the next river and do it again then you might want to check out The Jackmeister: Mongol History channel.
When you show the Mongol sabre next to the modern sabre; to me it seems like they have their curvature in different parts of the blade. The Mongol one having its curve notably closer to the hand, and an almost straight section towards the tip - the modern sabre straight at the handle, curved towards the tip.
Is that a general trend or just coinsidence?
Interesting as always 👍👍👍.
I assume that the Turko-mongolic sabre is the descendant of the long double edged blades that developed in Western Siberia and East Asia after the spread of iron production which were themselves were descendants of the last bronze age blades.
We see parallel developments of the Chinese Jian, Japanese tachi and Sassanid Persian blades from the same period, all using a similar form. The Turko-mongolic sabre seems like a development of this sword form with enhancements to increase cutting power during the literal slashing attacks used by mounted combatants.
11:00 They arent stronger cutters. However they do help in edge alignment a bit.
If they are very curved (the persian styles, but they are later period) then the are slightly better at cutting if you punch cut, but as i mentioned not at drawing cut or direct cut.
In general, Curved swords advantage is that they are easier to make/maintain. Thats a very good attribute for nomadic horse tribes.
JAPAN! The nested steel of the Japanese swords were a response to the Mongols and the shape is clearly similar.
Good historical analysis. Would have liked some comments about the functional aspects of the sabre, ie why the Mongols did this instead of that. But still good!
1 Turko-Mongols used a prototype saber.
2. The Hungarians met them and started using this weapon. At the end of the 9th century, the Hungarians brought it to Europe and spread it in the neighboring countries.
3. Later, the Poles spread it further along with others. It has always been used by the Hungarians, but after the 14th century it was almost only used as a cavalry weapon. Around the 16th century, it was no longer only used by the cavalry. And it was put back into use. Around this time, it came into use in several European countries.
4. It also began to spread during the war against the Ottomans.
That's it in a nutshell. Of course, the weapon changed from time to time, but not much.
cause early Islamic swords were designed based on Roman spathas straight double edged cut oriented designs
Oh, that is a *nice* sword! LK Chen keep making swords I want, and I have to padlock my wallet!
12:20 The dao has been the primary military sword in China since the Han dynasty around 100bc ish
I wonder why the Mongols didn’t come up with hand guards on their Sabres.
Depending on unit type, they had shields, heavy armour or kept away from people that could fight back, when it came time to use the sabers.
Because that's what shields are for
An important and overlooked reason is weather. The Central Asian steppes get very cold, necessitating the wearing of heavy mittens, which make developed guards impractical.
You still see that in traditional Cossack shashkas, and a modern analogue would be removing trigger guards from rifles in very cold conditions, to allow firing while wearing heavy gloves.
Imagine if they didn’t need it LOL
Turks’ ancestors were blacksmiths so it makes sense their swords would be good.
So the Eastern Roman Paramerion Sword took inspiration from this?
Eurasian nomads predominantly used sabres. In Hungary sabres were used from nomadic times up to the medieval times when the predecessor of modern light cavalry was first employed. Later many Western European armies adopted light cavalry as well as sabres, so that you can see the obvious similarity in light cavalry sabres of different ages and countries.
That is a fascinating subject. I would like to see a introduction video about the Seljuk weapons, specially about their horseman swords and their bows.
Oh dear! Another thing to steal for Greeks from Turks eh?
Love that you cover turkic/mongol swords aswell now!
But whats the point of the curved grip?
It stops your hand from slipping.
@@markkodryk829and easier to draw and sheathed from horseback
Where did you buy that beautiful sword??😅😅
Very interesting. I have thought they also are somewhat reminiscent of chinese dao. Maybe some hybridisation going on in the chinese Tang period? A bit piandao stylish, as you might have indicated. So curved seem to be of turkish or turkmongolic origin. And didn’t the japanese also got influenced by this?
Three points: 1) Between Avars (6th - beginning of 9th century) and Mongols (Second third of 13th century) you have Hungarians (end of the 9th up to today - they raided e.g. France in the time of Vikings). 2) Ching dynasty were of Manchu origin, i.e. nephews of Mongols. 3) The first battles of the First Crusade were against (mostly) muslim Seljuk Turks wielding (probably) sabres. Straight-blade-wielding Arabs and Syrians came only after (probably Persian-influence sword type, single-edged and more palas-like).
"The first battles of the First Crusade were against (mostly) muslim Seljuk Turks wielding (probably) sabres. Straight-blade-wielding Arabs and Syrians came only after (probably Persian-influence sword type, single-edged and more palas-like)."
Matt refers in the video to the forces of Saladin who didn't participate in the First Crusade. Most of the conflict with the Seljuks and the Sultanate of Rûm were in the First Crusade. By the Second and Third the Crusader states held coastal territory in Outremer to receive crusaders directly from ships, and the Byzantines and Latins had reclaimed territory in Anatolia to traverse without having too much trouble with the Turks. If anything, Byzantine paramerions would be likely to be encountered when the Crusaders were sacking Byzantine territory.
The Manchus were not nephews of the Mongols. Manchus are from an entirely separate lineage of peoples, were semi-nomadic and used agriculture (compared to exclusively/mostly nomadic Mongols), and spoke Manchu - which is a totally different language in the Tungusic language family. The Mongolian language is in a separate Mongolic family. The Manchus are also descended from the Jurchens, and the Jurchens of the Jin Dynasty fought the Mongols in the middle ages and the empire was destroyed by a combined Mongol & Song Dynasty invasion.
Dont know i fthe mahyars ever made it to present day france, east francia is not the same as "france"
@@hexachire7214 They did in the 10th century, they even went as far as the Emirate of Cordoba in Spain and the southern half of the Italian peninsula. There were multiple deep raids France.
@@hexachire7214 As they went all they way to Cordoba in Spain, raiding around Tours is not off
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_invasions_of_Europe#/media/File:Hungarian_Invasion_of_Europe.png
The minute you unsheathed the sword, it reminds me of a Japanese katana, is there a possibility that there was some sort of exchange
You've made a good point.Samurai have been using katanas since the 15th century. Obviously influenced by the Turko-Mongols🫡
Awesome Matt!. I always like seeing when the Mongle Sabres get some attention. A great example from LK Chen.
A few quick notes :
During the Avar period the
guards would’ve had simple straight crosses, either with small bulbs or long quillons. we do see the beginning of one of the two most popular types of guard for these sabers, which is the star guard. The other type is what is seen on this example, which is called the boat guard. You can find forward, swept quillons during the ninth and 10th centuries on Magyar and Alan swords, as well as in the 14th century on Golden Horde Sabres.
Tunkou will likely predate the actual “Sabre” blades, showing up first on Turkic backswords (along with yelmen, and originally being quite ornate. While there are similar Chinese structures the nomad examples will be different by having an extended edge (usually innate cutting side) and often being iron and hammer welded to the blade. These will eventually be introduced to China via groups like the Liao during the Song dynasty.
i had a french one like the one handled here as an example and yeah the handle does curve like this sword. it was a french sword made in germany for the french revolution and according to wkc swords - the maker, they made boxes of them without guards or handles or pommels and shipped them bare bladed to france and england
I recommend "A Study of the Eastern Sword: Kirill Rivkin (the author)" to anyone interested in the topic. He has a lecture of the same name here on RUclips.
Surprised you didn't mention Japanese swords which take the same influence very early.
Well before they became predominant in China.
Samurai have been using katanas since the 15th century. Obviously influenced by the Turko-Mongols🫡
I genuinely thank you for this video there is a massive amount of confusion on this subject,i have seen people calling these curved sabers origin persian, chinese... even arabic, many bogus claims.
First comment 😆
first reply to the first comment
Question: do undulating blades like the ones on the flamberge and Kris succumb to the "bed of nails principle," in that if several waves make contact with the target does it actually do less damage than if a straight edge were to hit it?
Turkish Killage is the name
Fascinating subject! That sabre is beautiful...I can't wait to see the review!
Thanks for the video, truly informative and entertaining.
I wondered if there's some evidence of a connection between the turko-mongol sabers and the japanese tachi (and later uchigatana)? The habaki on japanese swords seems, to my eyes at least, to resembe the tūnkǒu on the turko-mongol sabers in some regards. There also seems to exist a japanese tachi called 'Kogarasu Maru', believed to have been crafted around the 8'th centry, with a single-edged blade that turns into a double-edged blade towards the tip, somewhat similar to the design of the turko-mongol saber you present here.
Just a question that struck me while watching the video.
Have a nice day.
Best regards,
Steffen
Whats the use of having a forward arcing grip on a sword with the opposite curve? Leverage?
Interesting how many cultures eventually go from straight swords to curved swords. For instance, Japan, China, Germany, Muslim. As a rule of thumb, I'd say straight swords are better for unarmored and curved for armored combat.
I believe the Turko-Mongol saber was descended from the Xiongnu ring pommel swords (Huan shou dao). This was a straight single edged horseman's sword used form at least the Qin dynasty and popular in China between the Han and Tang dynasties, so over a thousand years. They spread to the Korean peninsula by at least the second century and the Japanese archipelago by at least the sixth.
In Japan the huan shou dao evolved into the chokuto, which was later given a curved blade, becoming the tachi and katana.
And by the time the Xiongnu became the Avar and Huns they had also discovered the joys of a curved blade, spreading the gospel of fire and blood across western Asia and East Europe.
I wouldn't say they are prototype of 19 European sabres... but an example of convergent evolution
There is much more to rediscover about the Mongols in the coming years. In archeology, historical texts, political-cultural influences. Last half of 20th century, the scholarship of Inner Asia was manipulated and suppressed by the Soviet historiography which basically dictated to the Western and even Communist Chinese knowledge about it. The Chinese (despite their own old manuscripts) had copied the Soviet schools due to the gap the Cultural Revolution created in scholarship. Soviet historians acted as pseudo-experts and fabricated much for their own ideological end (also to control its minorities in the proximity of Mongolia), as the Soviets were the only ones who had access. Prior to mid 1950-s, the world had no time to sit and study Inner Asia (Mongolia being THE center). Last 20 years, there's been a surge in the study. Big opportunities waiting for scholars in all fields!
Brilliant video dude...
I remember debating someone in a previous video of yours in the comments...
I basically said what you said in this video lol
You defo did your research mate...
Love the videos ❤
Thank you for a cursory look at the history of Turko-Mongol sabers. Since the first time I got interested in Turko-Mongol warfare, I was fascinated by the similarities between Turko-Mongol sabers and most of the European military sabers from the 19th century. I think you explanation makes sense: i.e., Turko-Mongol saber is actually a huge geographical and cultural bubble, encompassing just about everybody within East Asia, Europe, and the Middle East. Personally, I think the Ottomans might have helped to "seal" the adoption of the key features of Turko-Mongol sabers in Europe. In particular, unlike the Mongols, Europe was exposed to the Ottomans for much longer and the Ottomans were the ones you would have looked up to for the latest in military-related stuffs and inspirations until the rise of "Ottoman-killers" like Russia.
Perhaps Turko-Mongol sabers and their derivatives have consistently maintained their key features throughout many many centuries might attest to their very rich intercontinental history, well-rounded design, and style. (Personally, I think Turko-Mongol sabers and European sabers are pretty handsome.)
Hello Matt,
I think the forefather of this sword is the Siunnu/Hunnic straight single edge sword.
Also a little correction - The Caucasian Shashka is basically Messer/Knife. Shash/Shish is the root of the word. And Shashlik is a meat on a knifes / Skewers.
There is significant difference between Shashka and Tatar saber. And what you hold is more close to Tatar saber.
You could check also - Valeri Yotov and the weapons of the Bulgars 7-11 century.
Thank you for your video!
I am playing RPGs for decades now and I always wonder about the different stats for weapons in some RPGs. So I have one question: How important are the form, weight etc. of the blade and of the hilt? Would changing the hilt change behavior of the weapon? or is the blade all that matters?
I think everything in a weapon matters if you make it in a certain way. Blade form affect what the weapon could do. Sword handguards affect protection to the hands which affect swordsmanship style. Handle length affect whether it is a single handed or two handed weapon.
Changing the hilt affect how you handle the weapon.
Some dagger or swords may have a handle bent because this actually align the blade to the arm straighter than with a straight handle. This makes it more comfortable to stab and may also impart an automatic slicing motion on the target when cutting.
It seems it also influenced the Japanese. The tachi that evolved to the typical katana, got it typical gentle curve after or during the Mongol Invasions
That's absolute bullshit we have examples of curved tachi literally centuries before the Genghis khan was even born let alone his descendants who tried to invade Japan.