From Julio Albí de la Cuesta reference book about the Spanish Tercios, "De Pavía a Rocroi. Los tercios españoles", I recall that veteran infantrymen advised to bring into battle a sword that was "una buena tajadora", i.e., a good cutter/slasher. I am no expert in the matter, but I could imagine both swords presented at 4:51 and 9:10 as a good examples of a "buena tajadora".
Swords with a 'rapier hilt' but a beefier blade (generally shorter than a true rapier blade) are often termed 'sword rapiers'. They were relatively common in cavalry use during the Thirty Years War. There are many in Swedish collections and a particularly Swedish type is recognised.
@@AlexFerguson-z8f I have come across the term in books on the armies of the Thirty Years War. The sword rapier is a cut-and-thrust weapon, rather than a thrust-centric sword, which true rapiers are. I think that many soldiers of the gentry/officer class, when joining the expanded militaries of both the Thirty Years War and English Civil War, were equipped with rapiers. On campaign they found them less than ideal for the rigours of combat and sought more robust and versatile swords. The sword rapier is distinguished from other swords with similar cut-and-thrust blades, by being mounted with a typical rapier-style hilt, such as a Pappenheimer.
Friend of mine did a little SCA fencing. He said that their rapier fencing allowed draw cuts and push cuts, but not slashes. They think that is how the inch-wide blades of 16th C rapiers were used.
I have the LK Chen Town Guard. It's my first sword, so I won't make any comparisons, but it's a really splendid sword. And yes, the tip is quite pointy indeed! It is quite heavy for a one-handed sword, but AFAIK so were the originals it's based on. That said, the weight is essentially all in the guard due to the blade geometry, so it's still very fast.
My two swords are the Windlass 1796 Light Cavalry Saber, and the Albion "Burgundian" 15th century arming sword. Of course, with the extreme distal taper of the 1796, it's quite light. But I forget what the exact weight is. However, I can tell you that the Burgundian's weight is 2 lbs., 11 oz.😁
Historical terms are often vague and inconsistent and frustrating. They just didn't really seem to care about nomenclature. I always thought that there would be a modern source that came up with modern terms to categorize swords in a consistent and accurate way, for ease of communication. It's difficult to talk about these things when the historical terms aren't always so helpful. Hopefully someone comes up with a resource like that in the future. It would make things easier to say "It's a late period rapier, using the Easton system."
I prefer a modern approach to naming of blades. I know there are many who must use the 'period name' but that doesn't help us when they use a common name to refer to vastly different blades. They did not need to differentiate between the blades as we do.
I just commented essentially the same thing, but your idea is better because it acknowledges that someone needs to make a system and do it well enough that other people accept it.
I like precision in nomenclature, too, but it is often _exceedingly_ difficult to do, and ultimately of limited value. Using swords as an example, at what point does a "slender" blade become "broad," how do you measure it if there's profile taper, and how is it useful if the only way to tell 25% of the time is to use a ruler?
Even in the modern era people might refer to the exact same Mustang as a: "muscle car" "sports car" "race car" "convertible" "coupe" and "Shelby." With swords being ubiquitous, it makes sense there would be lots of words and slang around them. Even if a kingdom had an official typology, nobody would ever say "Oakeshott type X." Just as today people hardly ever say "1987 Honda Civic Si Hatchback" unless they are selling it. In everyday conversation people will either call it a car, compact, or use only one or two of the offical nomenclature words.
Seems to me a rapier could be termed a “Gentleman’s” sword, details were guided by the periods current styles and the gentleman’s requirements. A proper Gentleman may have more than one suited to the particular needs of the day however similar enough that they would handle in a similar fashion to which the Gentleman had become accustomed.
Most swords used by Conquistador's were wide blades mounted on complex hilts or sidesword style blade. It is an interesting topic I wish he would touch on, however he focuses on English/European swords.
If I recall correctly there are no known surviving intact macuahuitl (we have decriptions, we may have art, we may have fragments, there are drawings of one from a museum that was destroyed in a fire, but nothing else). That said there are a few really nice ones made by flint knappers, but they are not historically accurate (and there are a bunch made by tv/movie prop crews that are "good enough" for the audience but in no way accurate). The best recreation ones, that would be speculation/best guess, I have seen were in this video "Maquahuitl Madness!...." ruclips.net/video/EHg05etXw1Y/видео.html by paleomanjim (he hasn't posted in years but he had some great flint knapping videos, including some where he experiments with different techniques to make the blades/blade cores, the actual obsidian parts used by the Aztecs which we do have archaeological evidence of). There is a similar club like weapon (described as paddle like) from Polynesian cultures (mostly Hawaiian) which uses shark teeth instead of obsidian blades called a leiomano. It is interesting that different cultures have made sword like weapons out of the materials they had at hand when they had no metal working technology, and no known prior contact with sword using cultures.
@@sunshaker01 I was reading “Conquistador” by Buddy Levy, and he mentions Cortez encountering blades made of spear points and metal tips. It sounds all for the world like the Aztecs started making macuahuli with recycled steel instead of obsidian.
@@matthewhooper1508 Obsidian is sharp but brittle, so after use tools weapons would need to be repaired, more so if they were used against the steel armor used by the conquistadors. As such it would not be a surprise if the Aztecs started using recycled metal or even captured weapons. Oddly the brittleness of obsidian caused the conquistadors some problems, a hit on the armor would send fragments/shards of obsidian flying (a hit on the shoulder would send fragments into the neck/face, causing bleeding, potentially sever wounds if unlucky), so the conquistadors added significant padding to the outside of their armor.
@@sunshaker01 The conquistadors used nothing but padding for armor. Cortez spoke with other Spaniards before starting his expedition and learned that steel armor was overkill for the native weaponry and murderously hot. He pulled out the steel to impress the locals, but the soldiers fought in cotton gambesons.
Curious how beefy a “musketeer” rapier would have been. As in the rapiers used during the time period of the fabled 3 Musketeers and D’Artagnan, around the early to mid 1600s.
Do you mean "king's musketeers" (D'Artagnan and his pals - king's of France guard) or musketeers of the period (typical soldier with a musket in Europe)? I don't know about king's guard but if we are talking about typical musketeers - they would use dusacks, hangers, backswords or broadswords, not rapiers.
@@chriskrause6280 Those guys were nobility. Therefore they had multiple swords in their possesion most likely - so rapiers for day to day - and broadswords/sideswords (military rapiers) in case of war.
I think we should keep in mind that rapiers not really mass produced type of swords. So if someone want rapier with more strong, cutting blade good master absolutely can do it. It probably will cost more but hey.
A cool trick to do with a rapier is to turn a thrust into two cuts, one on the way in, and one on the way out. It won't do much against bone, but it will completely render a limb useless if done properly.
"Military rapier' carries with it connotations not unlike the phrase 'weapon of war' used in other contexts that I won't detail here. All weapons are 'military weapons' because that's where they got started, every weapon that a civilian might use to protect themselves was, for the most part, used first by soldiers on the battlefield. In my eyes, putting the word 'military' as an adjective next to 'rapier' is the same thing as calling a french fries 'food french fries.' All rapiers are 'military rapiers' and all french fries are made to be eaten.
I wonder how late a traditional simple cross hilt medieval arming sword was used? Presumably some arming swords were used maybe into early 1600s at the same time with swept hilt side swords / military rapier.
Another sword noob question, something that's often confused me about rapiers: their swept hilts often have pretty massive gaps in them (eg 7:35). They look very protective against cuts, but wouldn't a thrust from a similar sword just go straight through to the hand?
Hi. Hope this answer isn't to late : so Matt actually explained this in another video I think u might find it typing :" rapier vs. Rapier schola gladiatoria. " if u want specifics. There he basicly talks about the differences between cup hilt and swept hilt rapiers. Swept hilt rapiers are used diffrently, so your hand is less exposed to thrusts, but theoretically a thrust would damage your hand pretty bad, and your right, swepthilt rapiers are weaker about that. On the other hand cup hilt rapiers are weaker against blows that come with more energy cause cup hilt handprotection is pretty thin (otherwise it would weight to much) hope this gave u an idea about the pros and cons of sweapt hilts vs cup hilts, check out the video if u are further interested.) greetings :)
I think that military rapier was probably used/created because some sources such as Wallhausen(iirc) talking about how soldiers/citzens who could be drafted should have short strong cutting rapiers for two reasons. One so that in the melee the blades wouldnt break as it was the case with long rapier blades when pressed against armour etc(Smyth also mentions this if im not mistaken). They often complain about citizens having overly long and thin rapiers being too proud and arrogant to trade them for shorter cutting rapiers. The other being that muskets and pikemen who needed to move a lot would fall over each others long rapier blades. Take it with a grain of salt since the book is quite expensive and i dont have it at hand peter engerisser theorised that in both germany and england rapier meant a cut and thrust rapier often shorter but not always. In germany they even differentiated between rapier, short rapiers, degen and cutting degen which is weird since nowadays degen is used for rapier. Quite confusing. One italian Treatise by Colombani calls the rapier longsword at least according to the translator. So could it be that rapier is the cut and thrust sword and the longsword is the typical rapier?
Capo Ferro recomends in his "Gran Simulacro" to use the cut on horseback btw full sized rapiers in military circumstances were usually used by cavalry, the shorter version like the one for the Munich Guard were usually used as backup weapon by infantry.
@@Kinetic.44 Musketeers and Pikeman But not the Musketeers you know from the book or movies. The Musketeers of the guard of the King where historical a mounted unit using fullsized Blades.
+scholagladiatoria *Military rapiers were popular with European cavalry officers.* Lighter than broadswords, these swords had a lozenge cross-section. Inspired later swords such as the U. S. Sword, Cavalry, 1913, which split the difference betwixt broadsword and transitional rapier.
I study Capo Ferro and that LK Chen is like it is made to spec. Even the 3 ring 2 bar guard is illustrated in his manual.. and he defines the rapier as stands just beneath the armpit (longer then most manuals) which would be about right at 40 inch blade for a 5"7 person.. it is beefy.. and Capo cuts . In almost every one of the 40 plates there is a cut option. The fact is the rapier can cut enough to kill.. it wont be superficial.. at the correct range with leverage and speed it will severe limbs or kill. Although I do worry about the thrusting potential of this LK Chen example, it looks like it might be bendy like a Chinese sword.. it shouldn't be, it should be solid enough to push through a skull as imaged in Capo Ferro, if it bends before it can it is wrong.. I would suggest a more triangular blade 2/3rds of the way up, then going flat for the last 1/3 or 15 inches so it is like a dagger blade at that point it shouldn't bend. Schola is confusing the rapier with transitionary smallswords which are also called rapiers and more common in museums because they are more recent.. but really rapiers are either transitionary rapiers as coming from sidesword (which are the manuals most people who "train" rapier practice from..or transitionary rapiers turning into small swords as the style became more and more refined into purely thrust centric fencing which is more small sword fencing manuals). Even Fabris indicates you need to practice cutting.. 200 cuts a day to get used to your weapon..
Great vid, very interesting - I'm drooling over that LK Chen! I never appreciated how short and beefy the Munich town guard swords were - every day is a school day.
The problem has a number of facts involved. One of these is the fact that soldiers paid their own weapons in most armies. As @TheSrSunday says Julio Albi's book is a good place to learn about these armies, at least the Spanish one. Some of them as Spanish Tercios gave some money to buy the equipment in advance of the salary. The poorest soldiers would buy only one sword with that money, which they would use in war as in civilian life but richer soldiers, specially officers and noblemen would have two or more swords, ones stronger for war other narrower and more decorated for civilian life. Soldiers didn't work full time as it, they enlisted often for a campaign and then returned to civilian life until the next war. The poor one used then his only rapier as he did in war, meanwhile the rich one would put aside the strong sword for war and start wearing (because you wear the sword as you wear the hat, the cape or the shirt) a civilian more beautiful and comfortable one (or ones depending on his money). Thanks for teaching and sorry for my English, not as good as I wish.
That Münchenshwert, personally I would name, the "17th ct. cut & trust straight sword". Many modern and historical terms are confusing. Greeting from Cracow. Greg.
Sword noob question: every rapier I've seen (that can cut) has been double edged. If you wanted to make a rapier that cuts well, wouldn't a single edge have better geometry?
It might be interesting to compare the cutting capabilities of rapiers to that of the short edge for falchions, messers, and sabres. Although there’s so much variation within those categories and no way to well define the categories in order to make reasonable comparisons.
Without ordinance marks its hard to know. Sword shops like windlass could make most any type sword, mix and match with the bits on hand or fancy custom work, if you were willing to pay. You might even bring it back several times, to get it just right for you style.
What do you mean regarding edge geometry "at most like a chisel" at around 3:55? A properly sharpened chisel will cut you, and you will not notice the cut until you notice the blood dripping around and messing up your work. The common test for a chisel being "sharp enough" is to shave hair off a spot on the arm. A chisel typically has a working edge angle, when sharp, of around 25 degrees. Some have angles as low as 17 to 18 degrees. Swordsc optimized for cutting in a battle envirnonment are unlikely to be sharpened as much as a chisel. They would lose effectiveness far too quickly.
Blade chipping is pretty common and not a huge deal. A sword is a weapon its not for chopping wood all day, the sharper it is the more effective it is. If you are bashing your sword against armor over and over your are using it wrong...
@@Kinetic.44 You don't "chop" wood with most chisels. The nearest you might come to "chopping" with a chisel is cutting (chopping) a mortise, and the chisel is struck. It does not strike. My question to Matt had to do with the potentially confusing implication that chisels are bluntish. A cold chisel might be, but most chisels are not cold chisels, and are kept extremely sharp by anyone who knows how to use them. Considering edge tools that ARE used for chopping, actual chipping of the edge is a pain. Among other things, it means the edge has too hard a temper, causing it to chip. Of the sword blades I have been able to look at that apparently had been used in combat - two small swords, and a broadsword blade, the edges had, to one degree or another, accumulated a number of v-notches that appeared to come from stopping cuts.
Mr. Easton, in german language the word , Haudegen ' exists. Hau-... means in english, Hewing-...' Degen is in german language an umbrella term for Rapier, smallsword, Olympic Epee, Duel epee. Sidenotes: In , German Accademic Fencing ' , i am no accademic, it seems to happen often, that someone is not hurt by sharpened first 1/3 of Blade, but by an unpropper hit with flat Blade, causing a blue Stripe in face. Years ago, i read , Niebelungen' tale. At one Page it was written in current, Hochdeutsch ', the other Page in original, Middle High German '. Original medieval german was, i have to admitt, a difficult Problem. The word Degen apeares in medieval german, but it means then , Thegn' then! When i, born 1965, was in 1980s a young man, now i am an old Sack, two coworkers visited a funeral. The day after the funeral one of the two men told me , rather surprised: During the funeral, Helmut was degenmäßig! This means, my coworker Siegfried was surprised, that Helmut , during the funeral acted as fine gentleman.
Reports of the Spanish in the Americas contain claims of severing limbs and heads, with "rapier" used to describe the swords. Is that a case of "rapier" just meaning "sword" or did they mean bigger heavier rapier-rapiers like the big and chunky one?
My French antique rapier has a triangular shaped blade. Very much like a bayonet. There is no way to cut anything with it at all. What surprised me is that it may be made of a spring steel YES, but it is also not very difficult to permanently bend the blade in any direction you want. That fact really shooked me. In my mind the rapier blade will brake, but won't bend (permanently). To my further surprise and horror... I found that the crossguard is also forged from a soft steel that I can bend with my hands (if apply alot of force). The only tough part of it is the what appears a properly tempered steel cup. My rapier looks great and I love it. It is one of the best looking sword I've ever owned (I've owned thousands as I'm a I like Matt E. But on a smaller scale from over a 16 years). Never had interest of a rapiers before (I'm a saber guy), but seems I touched the one I currently own... Instantly fell in love. And sill. Why the blade is not tempered enough to stay straight even under higher pressure (nos really so difficult to bend it as the blade is very narrow)? And why the crossguard is also made of soft steel? That dosent make sense. The all hilt retention is relying on the two oval shaped "half rings". Seems they are part of the crossguard they are also made from a soft steel and play a role as a shock absorbing springs and detention points of the hilt when you screw the pomel on (somebody in a later stage added a threaded piese on top of the pomel and made the rapier easy to disassemble). So at the end my rapier is extremely good looking and well balanced, but also very easy to damage (also very easy to repair for the same reason). Why they made it so soft???
Nice Video! Since you´re talking about rapiers used in war I would love your thoughts on the rapiers the Caroleans of Sweden used. They don't really look like the "standard" rapiers of the rest of Europe.
I cannot wait to see the LKChen Saxony military rapier in test cutting. Just from the stats it looks like the absolute optimization of a cut and thrust sword abilities with great hand protection.
Terminology was not important in the past, most words used translate to just 'sword'. Names of the swords is important to us because we study so many different types of blades. We need to be able to easily reference what type of blade we are talking about to be able to understand what techniques to use/can be used etc. A Spanish Rapier is vastly different than an Italian Rapier vs a German Rapier vs that sword that Swetnam uses. Personally I don't see a point in arguing 'well they called it a Rapier' when it clearly is a different blade and all they were really meaning is 'sword'. In general when describing swords of this 'type', the term: Rapier - The thrust centric blade with a complex hilt. Side Sword - cut and trust blade with a complex hilt - blade is generally shorter with a more robust blade capable of delivering a good cut. Spanish Rapier - Generally a cup hilt blade used in the different 'Spanish' styles i.e. Destreza Calling that 'square' edged blade a rapier is generous, it does not have a complex hilt and has more in common with a small sword.
The hilt is literally a small sword hilt. He said as much himself. The blade itself though, was a rapier blade, mounted to a rapier hilt prior to being mounted on the small sword hilt.
What kind of sword would the Swedish m/1685 be classified as? Yes, a /year model number for a sword from the late 17th century. Over 200 000 were produced. It was an infantrymans sword.
I believe ih the 2011 version of The Three Musketeers, Porthos is seen carrying what you showed as a possible "military rapier" ; as the blade was considerably wider than typical rapier.
I dont understand why people make such a big deal about sidesword not being a period term. Neither was arming sword referring to all medieval one handed swords like it does today, but people dont feel the need to go through a disclaimer. Also all the original "period correct" terms are in a different language, so if we're so inclined on using the correct term we should be using the Italian, Spanish, German, french, old english, etc..
I agree, I don't see why 'period term' needs to be held to. They just called things 'swords' as they didn't have the great variety of swords and systems to worry about/train in. The name of the blade is far more important to us and therefor the terms we use should be more important that the term they used, which often was just 'sword'.
Objectively you can just try cutting and see if it works--the problem is earlier than that. They stem from sloppy conceptual analysis. When one tries to categorize an item based on features that exist on a continuum, that categorization gets quite subjective.
It's a human inclination to try to create absolute categories, e.g. trying to classify a sword as either 100% rapier or 0% rapier and never anything in between.
I have been cut by fairly blunt objects. The question is not "can it cut" it is "does it cut well enough to be a desirable tool for the purpose". That then begs the question of when does one thing become another thing? When does a hammer become a war hammer? Not when it is used in war, but when it's design becomes sub-standard for standard hammer use, and it's design becomes optimized for war. That provides a third problem, what if you want a war hammer that is still good for hammer things around the camp? You would probably call it a war-camp-hammer. Adjectives are how we describe hybrids. In summary? Can rapiers cut? Yes, but that is not really their *optimized* purpose. I would define a war rapier as the hybrid between a "pure" rapier and a cutting sword, because frankly in real war you can not rely on optimized conditions. This would mean that there is a scale of hybrids between the 90% thrusting rapiers and the 60-70% thrusting "war rapiers". While technically that would leave the 80% thrusting rapiers without a name, in the context of any conversation they would reasonably fall into either of the other categories naturally with minimal use of "not quite a" or "more of a".
I like my LK Chen "Saxon" rapier as they call based on a museum item. Needs a little file work as quality control left some "sharp flash" on the hilt but a very nice sword blade is of the style and length i wanted
I believe I've heard that a lot of mortuary hilts were rehilted old swords. Is that an example? Mortuary hilts are generally known as cut and thrust swords, but that one is so clearly a thruster I don't think I've seen anything similar. It's wonderful! What a find, have you been researching the ownership?
@@philvalz Total War: Warhammer. In og artworks and miniatures FB vambores used mostly two handed swords. Sometimes wierd two-handed swords with knucklebows.
There are plenty of museum examples of long and broad blades on complex hilts. They definitely take a lot of effort to use compared to the common competition set-up
Windlass' munich townguard is sold in germany nder ther name "Degen" or Epee in english. But it's worth noting that the german language features the Word "Haudegen" which would mean somehting like a hewing Epee, or a cutting rapier or something the like. Though current language (or more like 50-30 years ago) pretty much reclusively uses the word to refer to a "badass" person.
What i wonder is, are the "Pappenheimer" rapiers any kind of special rapiers. They are, as far as i know quite chunky and have a broard blade. They were introduced by Gottfried Heinrich Graf zu Pappenheim in thirty years war and quite famous in germany at that time, as far as i know. Specially known they are for their special "Parierschalen" to give more protection.
I just finished reading The Three Musketeers and I was wondering if they would switch their rapiers for some more robust blades when going to the siege of La Rochelle?
A discussion of the true military swords, such as those issued to musketeers of the thirty years war, would be interesting. Of course, not all musketeers were equal. The French King’s Black Musketeers of Alexander Dumas fame were a special case. Some modern authors writing about the pike and shot era claim the ordinary musketeers were given swords of such low quality the men preferred using clubbed muskets. The point could be made, however, that the musketeers were simply unwilling to lay aside their firearms which might be difficult to recover in order to draw and use their swords. The muskets after all were around 15 pounds in weight and not equipped with slings. Any light you could cast on this subject would be interesting [at least to me].
Every time rapiers and sideswords come up, there's always at least a little bit of a mention of the developed hand protection. Do you have any insight on why it took so long for people to start doing that? Was it just a matter of people not thinking to do it? I understand why it might not exist on a sword expected to be used exclusively with a big ole shield, but when I see one of those arming swords that have crazy long quillions I can't help but think "Hey, why did they just...bend the front one down a bit? Even the earliest side swords, the ones that are just arming swords with a single finger ring. Like, you have the thought to put a finger ring on but don't think "hey maybe I could put more stuff on there for more protection." With my side sword with a knucklebow and side rings, I still get hit in the hand a fair amount, which surely also happened to people in period. Why did it take so long for them to start thinking "what if I could get hit in the hand less?"
Firearms are a good analogy. A general might carry a very small, light pistol, even if in regulation caliber. Depending on the military in question, the thing may even be private purchase. The man will probably never fire the thing in anger. It's simply a symbol of authority. On the other hand, a vehicle crewman, who has a far greater probability of actually NEEDING the weapon, will carry a much larger, beefier service pistol, all but certainly of a standard pattern issued by his unit. If we speak of rapiers carried in war, by famous men to boot, we must first look at the context in which the weapon was carried. Ergo, the robust swords of the Munich Town Guard, vs. the kind of thing that might be carried by a well-heeled gentleman officer of the period.
Makes sense when showing that smallsword hilted blade, however it was little to do with the Town Guard sword featured in this video, which is shorter and therefore easier to carry than a actual rapier. Look at the windlass Musketeer rapier, over half a foot longer and just as heavy with a larger guard but a more narrow blade that still cuts.
A good example of a reproduction Rapier that can cut only ok but thrusts like a beast is the Cold Steel Cavalier Rapier. Which is a 36" Pappenheimer rapier. A good one too. Cold Steel did not put the right edge bevel on this, but it thrusts like a beast though. It is a nice thruster. What kind of cuts will this do? Worrying cuts. It won't cleave. It is dangerous enough to deter others away.
More than two millennia ago, the romans figured out thru practical knowledge, that the best way to take out an opponant is thru thrusting. A few inches will do. Cutting is for "show" and not as killing effective as thrusting.
In some niches of Central Europe sword terminology rapier was just civilians´s weapons and those L.K. Chens would be kords, military weapons. Not to say that especially officers wouldn´t use their duelling blade even to battle.
I am german, Brittas boyfriend, a pure armchair expert, but since 1982 i read the monthly appearing german language arms magazines, i have visited dozens of castles, museums, collections. So serious basic knowledge is existing. In german language Rapier, Smallsword, Olympic Epee and Duell Epee is called Degen. The noted weapons are usually used for thrust/Stoß ( yes i am carrieing owls to Athens), but up to second half of 17th century, some italian ( by Salvatore Fabri) inspired german fencing masters keept few moves of Liechtenauers tradition. For the case, you can visit german town Dresden, the ,Zwinger' building is a ,must'. It contains former Royal Saxon arms collection, the Wettin dynasty was for centuries richtest german dynasty, so a real Treasury. There you can watch strange looking shields and swords, Opera equipment for a pompeous fantasy Opera? No, was until 1709 used for , Tournament '( Was 1709 abandonned by Elector August, because the cutfencing style had nothing to do with then modern fencing Style). In Germany/HRE up to 1618, start of , Thirty Years War' , Longsword was trained. In his novel , Simplicius Simplicissimus ', a Bestseller in late 17th century HRE, the writer Christoph von Grimmelshausen, who survived terrible, Thirty Years War' ( was more devasting for Germany than wwll) describes a Scene(?) in which main charakter Simplicius meet a robber, armed with a large sword. I seems , that Longsword finally died in 18th century Germany. In case of this type of Degen, which is in english called rapier, in german language literature, also austrians and 2/3 of swiss speak german, sometimes the word , Haudegen ' ( hewing Degen) apeares. It means a sword/Rapier for heavy cavallry with a broader Blade than usual Rapier, for better cut Power. A sidenote: In current german the slightly dated word Haudegen is used for a fight expierienced man. Both in sense of traditional, Close quarters fighter' , but also in sense of a Long serving politician or lawyer. And in medieval german Degen meant Thegn.
I find it very odd that these complex hilts can easily be defeated by a thrust and that is predominantly what was being done with these swords? I never felt safe behind a fancy wire guard full of holes 100 times bigger than a sword tip. It’s no surprise the cup hilt followed immediately after.
Why can't the experts agree on a taxonomy for swords? The military swords are formalized by the year that version became standard, and you have special cases like the Munich city guard, but for the rest of the swords we don't seem to have well-defined categories. We've seen videos of this type about swords from outside of Europe, too
(You know, I think you've mentioned it a couple times but I forgot how tall you are. Everything does kinda look really light in your hands, but an actually-light cut and thrustey sword might suit me, ...even when I was stronger, a ton of length would have a tendency to strain my skinniness, so those might be comfy. :)
I've more often come across the term "war rapier", mostly in reference to Pappenheim and the 30 Years' War - sort of wars somewhere in the middle 1500 to 1799 I think... 🤔
0:50 The problem is, people don't understand what a scientific generalization or an inductive statement is. 'Rapiers don't cut well' is akin to saying 'birds fly.' Some dickhead can always be found who is more than happy to respond to such a reasonable, obvious claim by saying, 'well, actually, ostriches and penguins aren't capable of flight, so not all birds fly.' Sure, I can find a rapier that exists out there that does cut quite well. But it won't thrust as well as most rapiers, and there comes a point where such a sword arguably stops being a rapier altogether, and such a sword, rapier or not, is absolutely not representative of the 'typical rapier' that is out there. They're the kind of people who have never even heard phrases like 'science is the study of error' before, and if asked to define the word 'robust,' would probably say something about a broken oar.
Seems to me the only sensible solution is to stick to period terms, abandoning completely neologisms like “military rapier”. But will that help at all, considering that as you say many sources don’t specify the difference between rapier and sword?
![Felix "Unfair" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Oswujxm2Ag0/mqdefault.jpg)
Can we for a second admire the fact that Matt has a ORIGINAL 17th century sword there? Historical European swords outside museums are quite rare.
he literally owns a business selling antique swords
There are plenty of original swords out in the market. It is just a hobby for the rich.
They are quite common, but you would have to pay a fair amount of change for one, usually a couple thousand pounds
The "Town Guard" sword is a type commonly found in Germany, particularly central and south. Many of the castles simply call them 30 Years war swords.
Even before the 30 year war started lol
From "What is a military rapier?" to "What the hell is a rapier?" in 16 minutes.
From Julio Albí de la Cuesta reference book about the Spanish Tercios, "De Pavía a Rocroi. Los tercios españoles", I recall that veteran infantrymen advised to bring into battle a sword that was "una buena tajadora", i.e., a good cutter/slasher. I am no expert in the matter, but I could imagine both swords presented at 4:51 and 9:10 as a good examples of a "buena tajadora".
Swords with a 'rapier hilt' but a beefier blade (generally shorter than a true rapier blade) are often termed 'sword rapiers'. They were relatively common in cavalry use during the Thirty Years War. There are many in Swedish collections and a particularly Swedish type is recognised.
Is that a historical term? And does it specifically differentiate between degrees of "beefiness"? It might just be a direct calque of "espada ropera".
@@AlexFerguson-z8f I have come across the term in books on the armies of the Thirty Years War. The sword rapier is a cut-and-thrust weapon, rather than a thrust-centric sword, which true rapiers are. I think that many soldiers of the gentry/officer class, when joining the expanded militaries of both the Thirty Years War and English Civil War, were equipped with rapiers. On campaign they found them less than ideal for the rigours of combat and sought more robust and versatile swords. The sword rapier is distinguished from other swords with similar cut-and-thrust blades, by being mounted with a typical rapier-style hilt, such as a Pappenheimer.
@@urseliusurgel4365 There is also the german Pappenheimer hilt on somewhat heavier rapier.
@@urseliusurgel4365 When were the books written?
@@RheaMainz 1980s/1990s I think.
Friend of mine did a little SCA fencing. He said that their rapier fencing allowed draw cuts and push cuts, but not slashes. They think that is how the inch-wide blades of 16th C rapiers were used.
I like the Windlass "Town Guard", but it looks like LK managed to put a more period-correct tip/point on his rendition! I love it!
I have the LK Chen Town Guard. It's my first sword, so I won't make any comparisons, but it's a really splendid sword. And yes, the tip is quite pointy indeed! It is quite heavy for a one-handed sword, but AFAIK so were the originals it's based on. That said, the weight is essentially all in the guard due to the blade geometry, so it's still very fast.
@Tobascodagama what's the weight? Most historical rapiers and longswords are in the weight range of 2.5-3.5 lbs
@@gwynbleidd1917 3 lbs, 2 oz
@@Tobascodagama yeah. Thats actually a very average weight for a rapier, not heavy at all.
My two swords are the Windlass 1796 Light Cavalry Saber, and the Albion "Burgundian" 15th century arming sword. Of course, with the extreme distal taper of the 1796, it's quite light. But I forget what the exact weight is. However, I can tell you that the Burgundian's weight is 2 lbs., 11 oz.😁
Historical terms are often vague and inconsistent and frustrating. They just didn't really seem to care about nomenclature. I always thought that there would be a modern source that came up with modern terms to categorize swords in a consistent and accurate way, for ease of communication. It's difficult to talk about these things when the historical terms aren't always so helpful. Hopefully someone comes up with a resource like that in the future. It would make things easier to say "It's a late period rapier, using the Easton system."
I prefer a modern approach to naming of blades. I know there are many who must use the 'period name' but that doesn't help us when they use a common name to refer to vastly different blades. They did not need to differentiate between the blades as we do.
@@jonathanh4443 Don't get us started on what's a "Claymore" :)
I just commented essentially the same thing, but your idea is better because it acknowledges that someone needs to make a system and do it well enough that other people accept it.
I like precision in nomenclature, too, but it is often _exceedingly_ difficult to do, and ultimately of limited value. Using swords as an example, at what point does a "slender" blade become "broad," how do you measure it if there's profile taper, and how is it useful if the only way to tell 25% of the time is to use a ruler?
Even in the modern era people might refer to the exact same Mustang as a: "muscle car" "sports car" "race car" "convertible" "coupe" and "Shelby." With swords being ubiquitous, it makes sense there would be lots of words and slang around them. Even if a kingdom had an official typology, nobody would ever say "Oakeshott type X." Just as today people hardly ever say "1987 Honda Civic Si Hatchback" unless they are selling it. In everyday conversation people will either call it a car, compact, or use only one or two of the offical nomenclature words.
Even though I don't like traditional rapiers I like the scaled up sidesword you showcase in this video. Thanks for sharing this with us
Seems to me a rapier could be termed a “Gentleman’s” sword, details were guided by the periods current styles and the gentleman’s requirements. A proper Gentleman may have more than one suited to the particular needs of the day however similar enough that they would handle in a similar fashion to which the Gentleman had become accustomed.
I personally own a historical 3 ring rapier with a diamond cross section blade with NO edge really, I love it.
Matt, have you done an episode on the swords used by the conquistadors? If not, I would love to see one (perhaps along with the Aztec macuahuitl).
Most swords used by Conquistador's were wide blades mounted on complex hilts or sidesword style blade. It is an interesting topic I wish he would touch on, however he focuses on English/European swords.
If I recall correctly there are no known surviving intact macuahuitl (we have decriptions, we may have art, we may have fragments, there are drawings of one from a museum that was destroyed in a fire, but nothing else). That said there are a few really nice ones made by flint knappers, but they are not historically accurate (and there are a bunch made by tv/movie prop crews that are "good enough" for the audience but in no way accurate). The best recreation ones, that would be speculation/best guess, I have seen were in this video "Maquahuitl Madness!...." ruclips.net/video/EHg05etXw1Y/видео.html by paleomanjim (he hasn't posted in years but he had some great flint knapping videos, including some where he experiments with different techniques to make the blades/blade cores, the actual obsidian parts used by the Aztecs which we do have archaeological evidence of).
There is a similar club like weapon (described as paddle like) from Polynesian cultures (mostly Hawaiian) which uses shark teeth instead of obsidian blades called a leiomano. It is interesting that different cultures have made sword like weapons out of the materials they had at hand when they had no metal working technology, and no known prior contact with sword using cultures.
@@sunshaker01 I was reading “Conquistador” by Buddy Levy, and he mentions Cortez encountering blades made of spear points and metal tips. It sounds all for the world like the Aztecs started making macuahuli with recycled steel instead of obsidian.
@@matthewhooper1508 Obsidian is sharp but brittle, so after use tools weapons would need to be repaired, more so if they were used against the steel armor used by the conquistadors. As such it would not be a surprise if the Aztecs started using recycled metal or even captured weapons. Oddly the brittleness of obsidian caused the conquistadors some problems, a hit on the armor would send fragments/shards of obsidian flying (a hit on the shoulder would send fragments into the neck/face, causing bleeding, potentially sever wounds if unlucky), so the conquistadors added significant padding to the outside of their armor.
@@sunshaker01 The conquistadors used nothing but padding for armor. Cortez spoke with other Spaniards before starting his expedition and learned that steel armor was overkill for the native weaponry and murderously hot. He pulled out the steel to impress the locals, but the soldiers fought in cotton gambesons.
Curious how beefy a “musketeer” rapier would have been. As in the rapiers used during the time period of the fabled 3 Musketeers and D’Artagnan, around the early to mid 1600s.
Probably "any size" since that if the king gave to the musketeers their cassocks and muskets, the musketeers had to bring their own horses and swords.
Do you mean "king's musketeers" (D'Artagnan and his pals - king's of France guard) or musketeers of the period (typical soldier with a musket in Europe)? I don't know about king's guard but if we are talking about typical musketeers - they would use dusacks, hangers, backswords or broadswords, not rapiers.
@@kempo79 Kings musketeers! The D’Artagnan romances and all.
@@chriskrause6280 Those guys were nobility. Therefore they had multiple swords in their possesion most likely - so rapiers for day to day - and broadswords/sideswords (military rapiers) in case of war.
I think we should keep in mind that rapiers not really mass produced type of swords. So if someone want rapier with more strong, cutting blade good master absolutely can do it. It probably will cost more but hey.
Yeah, but between length, wideness, and handiness, you can only have 2. OR try to have all 3 meet somewhere in the middle and end up with a spadroon.
A cool trick to do with a rapier is to turn a thrust into two cuts, one on the way in, and one on the way out. It won't do much against bone, but it will completely render a limb useless if done properly.
Interesting. Maybe a military-rapier is designed to cut-&-thrust (battlefield) while a civilian-rapier is primarily designed for thrusts (duels)?
"Military rapier' carries with it connotations not unlike the phrase 'weapon of war' used in other contexts that I won't detail here. All weapons are 'military weapons' because that's where they got started, every weapon that a civilian might use to protect themselves was, for the most part, used first by soldiers on the battlefield. In my eyes, putting the word 'military' as an adjective next to 'rapier' is the same thing as calling a french fries 'food french fries.' All rapiers are 'military rapiers' and all french fries are made to be eaten.
I wonder how late a traditional simple cross hilt medieval arming sword was used? Presumably some arming swords were used maybe into early 1600s at the same time with swept hilt side swords / military rapier.
Pre and early modern sources are a nightmare for OCD types who like clarity.
Another sword noob question, something that's often confused me about rapiers: their swept hilts often have pretty massive gaps in them (eg 7:35). They look very protective against cuts, but wouldn't a thrust from a similar sword just go straight through to the hand?
Hi. Hope this answer isn't to late : so Matt actually explained this in another video I think u might find it typing :" rapier vs. Rapier schola gladiatoria. " if u want specifics. There he basicly talks about the differences between cup hilt and swept hilt rapiers. Swept hilt rapiers are used diffrently, so your hand is less exposed to thrusts, but theoretically a thrust would damage your hand pretty bad, and your right, swepthilt rapiers are weaker about that. On the other hand cup hilt rapiers are weaker against blows that come with more energy cause cup hilt handprotection is pretty thin (otherwise it would weight to much) hope this gave u an idea about the pros and cons of sweapt hilts vs cup hilts, check out the video if u are further interested.) greetings :)
I think the basket hilt is a nice compromise between the two. Also it looks great :-)
On my most recent visit to the Wallace Collection, I noticed and was astonished by how broad some of the rapiers and complex hilted sideswords were
I think that military rapier was probably used/created because some sources such as Wallhausen(iirc) talking about how soldiers/citzens who could be drafted should have short strong cutting rapiers for two reasons. One so that in the melee the blades wouldnt break as it was the case with long rapier blades when pressed against armour etc(Smyth also mentions this if im not mistaken). They often complain about citizens having overly long and thin rapiers being too proud and arrogant to trade them for shorter cutting rapiers.
The other being that muskets and pikemen who needed to move a lot would fall over each others long rapier blades. Take it with a grain of salt since the book is quite expensive and i dont have it at hand peter engerisser theorised that in both germany and england rapier meant a cut and thrust rapier often shorter but not always. In germany they even differentiated between rapier, short rapiers, degen and cutting degen which is weird since nowadays degen is used for rapier. Quite confusing.
One italian Treatise by Colombani calls the rapier longsword at least according to the translator. So could it be that rapier is the cut and thrust sword and the longsword is the typical rapier?
Woha, that LK Chen rapier is gorgeous!
Capo Ferro recomends in his "Gran Simulacro" to use the cut on horseback
btw full sized rapiers in military circumstances were usually used by cavalry, the shorter version like the one for the Munich Guard were usually used as backup weapon by infantry.
Musketeers??
@@Kinetic.44 Musketeers and Pikeman
But not the Musketeers you know from the book or movies. The Musketeers of the guard of the King where historical a mounted unit using fullsized Blades.
+scholagladiatoria *Military rapiers were popular with European cavalry officers.* Lighter than broadswords, these swords had a lozenge cross-section. Inspired later swords such as the U. S. Sword, Cavalry, 1913, which split the difference betwixt broadsword and transitional rapier.
I study Capo Ferro and that LK Chen is like it is made to spec. Even the 3 ring 2 bar guard is illustrated in his manual.. and he defines the rapier as stands just beneath the armpit (longer then most manuals) which would be about right at 40 inch blade for a 5"7 person.. it is beefy.. and Capo cuts . In almost every one of the 40 plates there is a cut option. The fact is the rapier can cut enough to kill.. it wont be superficial.. at the correct range with leverage and speed it will severe limbs or kill. Although I do worry about the thrusting potential of this LK Chen example, it looks like it might be bendy like a Chinese sword.. it shouldn't be, it should be solid enough to push through a skull as imaged in Capo Ferro, if it bends before it can it is wrong.. I would suggest a more triangular blade 2/3rds of the way up, then going flat for the last 1/3 or 15 inches so it is like a dagger blade at that point it shouldn't bend.
Schola is confusing the rapier with transitionary smallswords which are also called rapiers and more common in museums because they are more recent.. but really rapiers are either transitionary rapiers as coming from sidesword (which are the manuals most people who "train" rapier practice from..or transitionary rapiers turning into small swords as the style became more and more refined into purely thrust centric fencing which is more small sword fencing manuals). Even Fabris indicates you need to practice cutting.. 200 cuts a day to get used to your weapon..
we need this for EDC again
Great vid, very interesting - I'm drooling over that LK Chen!
I never appreciated how short and beefy the Munich town guard swords were - every day is a school day.
The problem has a number of facts involved. One of these is the fact that soldiers paid their own weapons in most armies. As @TheSrSunday says Julio Albi's book is a good place to learn about these armies, at least the Spanish one. Some of them as Spanish Tercios gave some money to buy the equipment in advance of the salary. The poorest soldiers would buy only one sword with that money, which they would use in war as in civilian life but richer soldiers, specially officers and noblemen would have two or more swords, ones stronger for war other narrower and more decorated for civilian life. Soldiers didn't work full time as it, they enlisted often for a campaign and then returned to civilian life until the next war. The poor one used then his only rapier as he did in war, meanwhile the rich one would put aside the strong sword for war and start wearing (because you wear the sword as you wear the hat, the cape or the shirt) a civilian more beautiful and comfortable one (or ones depending on his money). Thanks for teaching and sorry for my English, not as good as I wish.
that new rapier looks like it has a blade you would see mounted to a "Mortuary hilt" like an English broadsword or something and looks quite nice
That Münchenshwert, personally I would name, the "17th ct. cut & trust straight sword". Many modern and historical terms are confusing. Greeting from Cracow. Greg.
Maybe 'heavy rapier' could be an alternative to 'military rapier'?
"Girthy rapier" 😆😉 Rapier's got beef
Rapier: I'm not heavy or girthy, I'm big boned!
What kind of rapiers did the musketeers use?!
Sword noob question: every rapier I've seen (that can cut) has been double edged. If you wanted to make a rapier that cuts well, wouldn't a single edge have better geometry?
Seriously, though-That's a very, very beautiful sword. I really wanted a rapier and now I know which one it is. You should do a giveaway 😂
It might be interesting to compare the cutting capabilities of rapiers to that of the short edge for falchions, messers, and sabres. Although there’s so much variation within those categories and no way to well define the categories in order to make reasonable comparisons.
I have seen some of those "beefier" rapiers also referred to as "transitional rapiers".
Without ordinance marks its hard to know. Sword shops like windlass could make most any type sword, mix and match with the bits on hand or fancy custom work, if you were willing to pay. You might even bring it back several times, to get it just right for you style.
What of the Pappenheimer sword. Museum Replicas Ltd identified it as a "battlefield rapier" back in the 1980's
That rapier has a blade that looks like on some longsword, not even a side sword :) just give it a two handed hilt x)
What do you mean regarding edge geometry "at most like a chisel" at around 3:55? A properly sharpened chisel will cut you, and you will not notice the cut until you notice the blood dripping around and messing up your work. The common test for a chisel being "sharp enough" is to shave hair off a spot on the arm. A chisel typically has a working edge angle, when sharp, of around 25 degrees. Some have angles as low as 17 to 18 degrees. Swordsc optimized for cutting in a battle envirnonment are unlikely to be sharpened as much as a chisel. They would lose effectiveness far too quickly.
Blade chipping is pretty common and not a huge deal. A sword is a weapon its not for chopping wood all day, the sharper it is the more effective it is. If you are bashing your sword against armor over and over your are using it wrong...
@@Kinetic.44 You don't "chop" wood with most chisels. The nearest you might come to "chopping" with a chisel is cutting (chopping) a mortise, and the chisel is struck. It does not strike. My question to Matt had to do with the potentially confusing implication that chisels are bluntish. A cold chisel might be, but most chisels are not cold chisels, and are kept extremely sharp by anyone who knows how to use them.
Considering edge tools that ARE used for chopping, actual chipping of the edge is a pain. Among other things, it means the edge has too hard a temper, causing it to chip. Of the sword blades I have been able to look at that apparently had been used in combat - two small swords, and a broadsword blade, the edges had, to one degree or another, accumulated a number of v-notches that appeared to come from stopping cuts.
Mr. Easton, in german language the word , Haudegen ' exists. Hau-... means in english, Hewing-...' Degen is in german language an umbrella term for Rapier, smallsword, Olympic Epee, Duel epee.
Sidenotes: In , German Accademic Fencing ' , i am no accademic, it seems to happen often, that someone is not hurt by sharpened first 1/3 of Blade, but by an unpropper hit with flat Blade, causing a blue Stripe in face. Years ago, i read , Niebelungen' tale. At one Page it was written in current, Hochdeutsch ', the other Page in original, Middle High German '. Original medieval german was, i have to admitt, a difficult Problem. The word Degen apeares in medieval german, but it means then , Thegn' then!
When i, born 1965, was in 1980s a young man, now i am an old Sack, two coworkers visited a funeral. The day after the funeral one of the two men told me , rather surprised: During the funeral, Helmut was degenmäßig! This means, my coworker Siegfried was surprised, that Helmut , during the funeral acted as fine gentleman.
Reports of the Spanish in the Americas contain claims of severing limbs and heads, with "rapier" used to describe the swords. Is that a case of "rapier" just meaning "sword" or did they mean bigger heavier rapier-rapiers like the big and chunky one?
I would assume sideswords or larger blades mounted on complex hilts.
My French antique rapier has a triangular shaped blade. Very much like a bayonet.
There is no way to cut anything with it at all. What surprised me is that it may be made of a spring steel YES, but it is also not very difficult to permanently bend the blade in any direction you want. That fact really shooked me. In my mind the rapier blade will brake, but won't bend (permanently). To my further surprise and horror... I found that the crossguard is also forged from a soft steel that I can bend with my hands (if apply alot of force). The only tough part of it is the what appears a properly tempered steel cup.
My rapier looks great and I love it. It is one of the best looking sword I've ever owned (I've owned thousands as I'm a I like Matt E. But on a smaller scale from over a 16 years).
Never had interest of a rapiers before (I'm a saber guy), but seems I touched the one I currently own... Instantly fell in love.
And sill. Why the blade is not tempered enough to stay straight even under higher pressure (nos really so difficult to bend it as the blade is very narrow)?
And why the crossguard is also made of soft steel? That dosent make sense. The all hilt retention is relying on the two oval shaped "half rings". Seems they are part of the crossguard they are also made from a soft steel and play a role as a shock absorbing springs and detention points of the hilt when you screw the pomel on (somebody in a later stage added a threaded piese on top of the pomel and made the rapier easy to disassemble).
So at the end my rapier is extremely good looking and well balanced, but also very easy to damage (also very easy to repair for the same reason).
Why they made it so soft???
I'd like to know more about that sword over Matt's left-shoulder by the tomahawk.
Nice Video! Since you´re talking about rapiers used in war I would love your thoughts on the rapiers the Caroleans of Sweden used. They don't really look like the "standard" rapiers of the rest of Europe.
I cannot wait to see the LKChen Saxony military rapier in test cutting. Just from the stats it looks like the absolute optimization of a cut and thrust sword abilities with great hand protection.
Terminology was not important in the past, most words used translate to just 'sword'. Names of the swords is important to us because we study so many different types of blades. We need to be able to easily reference what type of blade we are talking about to be able to understand what techniques to use/can be used etc. A Spanish Rapier is vastly different than an Italian Rapier vs a German Rapier vs that sword that Swetnam uses. Personally I don't see a point in arguing 'well they called it a Rapier' when it clearly is a different blade and all they were really meaning is 'sword'.
In general when describing swords of this 'type', the term:
Rapier - The thrust centric blade with a complex hilt.
Side Sword - cut and trust blade with a complex hilt - blade is generally shorter with a more robust blade capable of delivering a good cut.
Spanish Rapier - Generally a cup hilt blade used in the different 'Spanish' styles i.e. Destreza
Calling that 'square' edged blade a rapier is generous, it does not have a complex hilt and has more in common with a small sword.
The hilt is literally a small sword hilt. He said as much himself. The blade itself though, was a rapier blade, mounted to a rapier hilt prior to being mounted on the small sword hilt.
What kind of sword would the Swedish m/1685 be classified as? Yes, a /year model number for a sword from the late 17th century. Over 200 000 were produced. It was an infantrymans sword.
Most probably as broadsword in english. In polish we would call it pałasz (pallash).
I believe ih the 2011 version of The Three Musketeers, Porthos is seen carrying what you showed as a possible "military rapier" ; as the blade was considerably wider than typical rapier.
Question: Is the first LK Chen "military rapier"/beefy rapier good and nimble in the thrust?
I dont understand why people make such a big deal about sidesword not being a period term. Neither was arming sword referring to all medieval one handed swords like it does today, but people dont feel the need to go through a disclaimer. Also all the original "period correct" terms are in a different language, so if we're so inclined on using the correct term we should be using the Italian, Spanish, German, french, old english, etc..
I agree, I don't see why 'period term' needs to be held to. They just called things 'swords' as they didn't have the great variety of swords and systems to worry about/train in. The name of the blade is far more important to us and therefor the terms we use should be more important that the term they used, which often was just 'sword'.
Objectively you can just try cutting and see if it works--the problem is earlier than that. They stem from sloppy conceptual analysis. When one tries to categorize an item based on features that exist on a continuum, that categorization gets quite subjective.
It's a human inclination to try to create absolute categories, e.g. trying to classify a sword as either 100% rapier or 0% rapier and never anything in between.
I have been cut by fairly blunt objects. The question is not "can it cut" it is "does it cut well enough to be a desirable tool for the purpose". That then begs the question of when does one thing become another thing? When does a hammer become a war hammer? Not when it is used in war, but when it's design becomes sub-standard for standard hammer use, and it's design becomes optimized for war.
That provides a third problem, what if you want a war hammer that is still good for hammer things around the camp? You would probably call it a war-camp-hammer. Adjectives are how we describe hybrids.
In summary? Can rapiers cut? Yes, but that is not really their *optimized* purpose. I would define a war rapier as the hybrid between a "pure" rapier and a cutting sword, because frankly in real war you can not rely on optimized conditions. This would mean that there is a scale of hybrids between the 90% thrusting rapiers and the 60-70% thrusting "war rapiers". While technically that would leave the 80% thrusting rapiers without a name, in the context of any conversation they would reasonably fall into either of the other categories naturally with minimal use of "not quite a" or "more of a".
I like my LK Chen "Saxon" rapier as they call based on a museum item. Needs a little file work as quality control left some "sharp flash" on the hilt but a very nice sword blade is of the style and length i wanted
"Hella good" edges? Matt you have made my year!
I believe I've heard that a lot of mortuary hilts were rehilted old swords. Is that an example? Mortuary hilts are generally known as cut and thrust swords, but that one is so clearly a thruster I don't think I've seen anything similar. It's wonderful! What a find, have you been researching the ownership?
The *broad* rapier looks like a weapon Warhammer Fantasy vampires would use.
This is TWW influence.
@@guruvedra "TWW"? 🤔
@@philvalz Total War: Warhammer. In og artworks and miniatures FB vambores used mostly two handed swords. Sometimes wierd two-handed swords with knucklebows.
LK have essentially put a "rapier" style hilt on a Jian blade.
There are plenty of museum examples of long and broad blades on complex hilts. They definitely take a lot of effort to use compared to the common competition set-up
@@breaden4381and?
We have the term “broad sword”. How about “broad rapier”?
Probably not, because the broad sword was only broad in comparison to the rapier
I see you have a point *wink wink*
Amazing. Simply amazing.
Lol
I love the "town guard" swords.
Confused? You are now 🤣
Beautiful swords though, love the Patina on your old English sword 🤩
A "military rapier" versus an "edc rapier" sounds like some people in the United States arguing about guns.
4:50 - What exactly is this sword? Anyone have name/link to exact model?
Windlass' munich townguard is sold in germany nder ther name "Degen" or Epee in english. But it's worth noting that the german language features the Word "Haudegen" which would mean somehting like a hewing Epee, or a cutting rapier or something the like. Though current language (or more like 50-30 years ago) pretty much reclusively uses the word to refer to a "badass" person.
What i wonder is, are the "Pappenheimer" rapiers any kind of special rapiers. They are, as far as i know quite chunky and have a broard blade. They were introduced by Gottfried Heinrich Graf zu Pappenheim in thirty years war and quite famous in germany at that time, as far as i know. Specially known they are for their special "Parierschalen" to give more protection.
I just finished reading The Three Musketeers and I was wondering if they would switch their rapiers for some more robust blades when going to the siege of La Rochelle?
If the blade is thick but edge is sharp I find draw cuts work best. But one still will not be cutting on par with falchion or katana.
A rapier that can cut as well as thrust will likely serve you best, even if you have to train almost to fully twice as much. At least you'd know.
A discussion of the true military swords, such as those issued to musketeers of the thirty years war, would be interesting. Of course, not all musketeers were equal. The French King’s Black Musketeers of Alexander Dumas fame were a special case. Some modern authors writing about the pike and shot era claim the ordinary musketeers were given swords of such low quality the men preferred using clubbed muskets. The point could be made, however, that the musketeers were simply unwilling to lay aside their firearms which might be difficult to recover in order to draw and use their swords. The muskets after all were around 15 pounds in weight and not equipped with slings. Any light you could cast on this subject would be interesting [at least to me].
Every time rapiers and sideswords come up, there's always at least a little bit of a mention of the developed hand protection. Do you have any insight on why it took so long for people to start doing that? Was it just a matter of people not thinking to do it? I understand why it might not exist on a sword expected to be used exclusively with a big ole shield, but when I see one of those arming swords that have crazy long quillions I can't help but think "Hey, why did they just...bend the front one down a bit?
Even the earliest side swords, the ones that are just arming swords with a single finger ring. Like, you have the thought to put a finger ring on but don't think "hey maybe I could put more stuff on there for more protection." With my side sword with a knucklebow and side rings, I still get hit in the hand a fair amount, which surely also happened to people in period. Why did it take so long for them to start thinking "what if I could get hit in the hand less?"
Firearms are a good analogy. A general might carry a very small, light pistol, even if in regulation caliber. Depending on the military in question, the thing may even be private purchase.
The man will probably never fire the thing in anger. It's simply a symbol of authority. On the other hand, a vehicle crewman, who has a far greater probability of actually NEEDING the weapon, will carry a much larger, beefier service pistol, all but certainly of a standard pattern issued by his unit.
If we speak of rapiers carried in war, by famous men to boot, we must first look at the context in which the weapon was carried. Ergo, the robust swords of the Munich Town Guard, vs. the kind of thing that might be carried by a well-heeled gentleman officer of the period.
Makes sense when showing that smallsword hilted blade, however it was little to do with the Town Guard sword featured in this video, which is shorter and therefore easier to carry than a actual rapier. Look at the windlass Musketeer rapier, over half a foot longer and just as heavy with a larger guard but a more narrow blade that still cuts.
Ooh. That is INTERESTING. Thank you.
I own a original rapier looks like the rapier shown at 4:51. I am happy to live in this days, without carry such an heavy blade with me every day.
Matt spoke very quickly there, what are the best museums at which to see swords?
A good example of a reproduction Rapier that can cut only ok but thrusts like a beast is the Cold Steel Cavalier Rapier. Which is a 36" Pappenheimer rapier. A good one too.
Cold Steel did not put the right edge bevel on this, but it thrusts like a beast though. It is a nice thruster.
What kind of cuts will this do?
Worrying cuts. It won't cleave. It is dangerous enough to deter others away.
❤ I love longer side swords. Cut & Thrust, 2 inch ricasso, just side rings and a buckler is all.i need ❤
Rapiets have an excellent push or withdrawing cut capability for producing duelling scars. 😅
More than two millennia ago, the romans figured out thru practical knowledge, that the best way to take out an opponant is thru thrusting. A few inches will do. Cutting is for "show" and not as killing effective as thrusting.
Those hand protections look like they'd be better vs cuts than they would vs thrusts...
In some niches of Central Europe sword terminology rapier was just civilians´s weapons and those L.K. Chens would be kords, military weapons. Not to say that especially officers wouldn´t use their duelling blade even to battle.
I am german, Brittas boyfriend, a pure armchair expert, but since 1982 i read the monthly appearing german language arms magazines, i have visited dozens of castles, museums, collections. So serious basic knowledge is existing.
In german language Rapier, Smallsword, Olympic Epee and Duell Epee is called Degen. The noted weapons are usually used for thrust/Stoß ( yes i am carrieing owls to Athens), but up to second half of 17th century, some italian ( by Salvatore Fabri) inspired german fencing masters keept few moves of Liechtenauers tradition. For the case, you can visit german town Dresden, the ,Zwinger' building is a ,must'. It contains former Royal Saxon arms collection, the Wettin dynasty was for centuries richtest german dynasty, so a real Treasury. There you can watch strange looking shields and swords, Opera equipment for a pompeous fantasy Opera? No, was until 1709 used for , Tournament '( Was 1709 abandonned by Elector August, because the cutfencing style had nothing to do with then modern fencing Style). In Germany/HRE up to 1618, start of , Thirty Years War' , Longsword was trained. In his novel , Simplicius Simplicissimus ', a Bestseller in late 17th century HRE, the writer Christoph von Grimmelshausen, who survived terrible, Thirty Years War' ( was more devasting for Germany than wwll) describes a Scene(?) in which main charakter Simplicius meet a robber, armed with a large sword. I seems , that Longsword finally died in 18th century Germany.
In case of this type of Degen, which is in english called rapier, in german language literature, also austrians and 2/3 of swiss speak german, sometimes the word , Haudegen ' ( hewing Degen) apeares. It means a sword/Rapier for heavy cavallry with a broader Blade than usual Rapier, for better cut Power.
A sidenote: In current german the slightly dated word Haudegen is used for a fight expierienced man. Both in sense of traditional, Close quarters fighter' , but also in sense of a Long serving politician or lawyer. And in medieval german Degen meant Thegn.
I feel like that LK Chen is just a longsword blade that they put in a rapier set of panoply.
"Swept hilt sword"
Wouldn't that lk chen rapier blade be close to a espada ropera as recommended in La Verdadera Destreza manuals?
I find it very odd that these complex hilts can easily be defeated by a thrust and that is predominantly what was being done with these swords?
I never felt safe behind a fancy wire guard full of holes 100 times bigger than a sword tip.
It’s no surprise the cup hilt followed immediately after.
4:32 yeah, it's not the same type of hilt but that looks almost like a schiavona. x)
I must confess all the vídeo I was looking at the kinda-walloon sword at the center behind you
Why can't the experts agree on a taxonomy for swords? The military swords are formalized by the year that version became standard, and you have special cases like the Munich city guard, but for the rest of the swords we don't seem to have well-defined categories. We've seen videos of this type about swords from outside of Europe, too
is rapier related to "rapace" in french, which means something like aggressive and has it any etymological link with "rap" music?
When will we get a review of the two town guard swords?!?
A longsword: A sword that is long
(You know, I think you've mentioned it a couple times but I forgot how tall you are. Everything does kinda look really light in your hands, but an actually-light cut and thrustey sword might suit me, ...even when I was stronger, a ton of length would have a tendency to strain my skinniness, so those might be comfy. :)
I've more often come across the term "war rapier", mostly in reference to Pappenheim and the 30 Years' War - sort of wars somewhere in the middle 1500 to 1799 I think... 🤔
Cromwell's Cavalry used swords that have been called military rapiers
0:50 The problem is, people don't understand what a scientific generalization or an inductive statement is. 'Rapiers don't cut well' is akin to saying 'birds fly.'
Some dickhead can always be found who is more than happy to respond to such a reasonable, obvious claim by saying, 'well, actually, ostriches and penguins aren't capable of flight, so not all birds fly.' Sure, I can find a rapier that exists out there that does cut quite well. But it won't thrust as well as most rapiers, and there comes a point where such a sword arguably stops being a rapier altogether, and such a sword, rapier or not, is absolutely not representative of the 'typical rapier' that is out there. They're the kind of people who have never even heard phrases like 'science is the study of error' before, and if asked to define the word 'robust,' would probably say something about a broken oar.
Seems to me the only sensible solution is to stick to period terms, abandoning completely neologisms like “military rapier”.
But will that help at all, considering that as you say many sources don’t specify the difference between rapier and sword?
I really hope that LK chen town guard sword get a review soon. i am eyeing that piece. 😁
14:15 I wonder at what point does a longsword turn into an estoc?
For narrow blades why not have them flat on one side with a single bevel?
Were cut and thrust rapiers, if I can call them by that term, used in the same times and places as more thrust-only rapiers?
That rapier would have a relatively broad blade even for a sidesword lol, most I've seen at my sidesword club are about that broad or narrower.