slight thing to note about the sleep spell. being a half elf means you have fey ancestry so even if your hit points are lower you do not count towards the sleep total due to being immune
I note there is a Strength based with Athletics expertise build you could also take the Valour Bard. Spells are still your primary tool, but shoves and grabs broaden your options when not doing that. The ability to use all martial weapons is a nice side effect.
Valor bards are very difficult to kill. Very good AC. Decent HP. Healing spells for days. They are great at disabling foes. Sleep, dissonant whispers etc...
One mistake: The instrument being playable onehanded doesn't matter, because you don't have to actually play it to use it as a spell focus - merely touch it. Other than that, great work, as always.
@@M0ebius in defense of the other phb races imho the Wood Elf has a lot of flavor and a Mountain Dwarf can make for a terrific Str Bard (16 10 16 10 10 14 at 1st level plus weapon proficiencies and medium armor, you may still go Dex with 10 15 16 8 10 15).
Great start, TM! This Tiefling subrace is really good for bards! Have never even thought about that one, damn! But definetly this Half-Drow is fantastic as well, goo call picking it for the purposes of the guide.
Eladrin, Half-Elf, and Tabaxi are my favorite bard races. Actually getting to play a PC regularly for the first time in years as I usually DM and I've been playing a Tabaxi bard (college of valor) as my first long term 5e PC. It's a little bit trickier starting out than the other bard subclasses I think are viable if you are starting at low level and trying to build a long term character (College of Lore or Glamour are the others I like) but it comes into it's own more and more as you advance in levels. I'm chomping at the bit to get to double digits in level and really start stretching my legs ability/ character utility wise! Hope to play a lore bard through a campaign or two eventually as well but I think my next character will be a Human Battlemaster Fighter or a Half Elf or Eladrin Oath of the Ancients Pally...
I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes! Only thing I'd change myself so far is to take Thunderwave. The AoE and pushback is still useful on my level 13 handcrossbow weilding swords college bard (reskinned as a knife thrower). He's got all that way with only 14 charisma relying on his high Dex and using support spells with no spell DC or attacks.
Only issue with the spell is the sound component. Most DMs don't take it into account, but those that do WILL make the entire dungeon rush your party if you use this.
Something of note: no where in any books does it say you have to play your musical instrument to use it as a spellcasting focus. It just needs to be in your hand. So there's no need to take an instrument you can play with one hand such as a horn, just any you could easily hold in 1 hand when you need to cast spells. My personal favourite is to take a piccolo and pretend it's a wand
Getting an extra attack + Expertise in athletics skill = Who needs weapons? Bards are very heavy on battlefield control, and are weak on damage. Valor bards are no different. You are thinking about attacks exclusively as a means to do damage, but they are also an amazing single target control ability. One which has unlimited uses.
I am interested in how TM handles the inspiration dice. I always thought Valor bards have the best use of BI, they get the regular benefits (saving throws) and also AC increase for the recipient. Giving an ally a saving throw or AC bonus at no action cost to you (give them out before combat) is a big boost, it can prevent that big hit or that saving throw that breaks a spell caster concentration. The valor bard by virtue of having decent AC doesn't need to keep the inspiration die for their own use, making their effective pool larger. I always thought a better implementation of the BI dice is that you cant use them on yourself but the reset on any rest. I never tried it though even as an experiment.
smbakeresq Cutting Words does the same thing. Yeah it cost reaction, but you can put it where you need it, including yourself. Most Bards won’t have ways to use their reactions anyway, and it’s not a given that every or even most combat you’d get to pre-buff. Not to mention Cutting Words’ other uses: damage mitigation is very good against AOEs and skill checks are good for grapples and also in social situations. Combat Inspiration’s damage die on the other hand is almost never worth it, and late game is more or less useless.
This video has so few comments, especially for a sub-class that has so much potential. Doing an archer gish with this class, especially an elf for elven accuracy, gives so much versatility and potential to combat, exploration, and for everything else this game may ask. This would be a balanced class except for the bards extra spells from any class. No other gish gets full spell progression/slots, and the bard’s skill bonuses make them useful in any circumstance. To give a glimpse into my thought process, here’s the thing that makes valor bard broken: build an elf bard with feats that focus on archery. Elven accuracy at 4, sharpshooter at 8. By level 8, you have level 4 spells (superior invisibility), extra attack, and bardic inspo per short rest. At 10, take find greater steed & swift quiver. You now have tons of extra movement, concentration-free flight, a mount that benefits from your buffs, and the ability to weave concentration-free spells into 2 sharpshooter attacks regardless of the roll the spell takes in your background. At 14, take sunbeam as one of your choices, and you can literally aoe blind people every action then take a BA pot shot of sharpshooter. Add the benefits of elven accuracy to enhance ability, and your barcher will now nearly always succeed, assuming they can guess what the next big section of the story is. I love the gish play style, and I can’t think of a better kit that allows for both spells & weapon attacks from 1-20. You can give yourself advantage regularly, utilize spells from end game progression mechanics far earlier than the class they were designed for, and they use them better honestly. No ranger will ever use swift quiver as effectively as a valor bard, and no class allows for the versatility this creates. You can even mass heal the party then do 25+ damage on the same turn. No one else can do that! I’m rambling, my apologies. To sum up, this class is now one of my favorites, and if you like the idea of weaving spells & attacks, this is your class
Some folks have respectfully shared a tip about the half-drow. A dark-skinned human parent means it's harder to spot the Drow in the character. All most people would see is the elf. And in many settings folks do not care about skin colour. Example: if you start in Thay as a half-Mulan you're not gonna raise any eyebrows.
Havent seen the rest of this build but there is a slight redundancy in the stat array. Valor bards can pick up medium armour but medium armour only allows you to get a maximum bonus of +2 from dexterity. I would swap the Dex 16 and Con 14 around do maximise the effect of your dex on your AC. Obviously Dex saves are common but so are Con saves and it also helps with mantaining your concentration.
Treantmonk's Temple You already have shield proficiency. Why not just take War Caster and wield a shield for 2 more AC and advantage to concentration checks?
@@M0ebius You are thinking of moderately armored. Medium Armor Master allows you to use any medium armor without disadvantage to stealth and allows you to use up to a +3 dex modifier to AC with medium armors.
Treantmonk's Temple Right, which is 1 more AC than regular medium armor. With War Caster and a shield you get 2 more AC. If the concern is with Stealth then use a breast plate and you end up with the same AC but advantage on concentration checks still.
Just thinking out loud, but what would happen if we doubled the damage dice of all weapons? So a dagger is 2d4, a short sword is 2d6, a great sword is 4d6, etc. I don't think it would unbalance the game too much. Martials can roll more dice, which is satisfying. They deal more damage, which is most noticeable at early levels when they're stronger than casters anyway. As casters grow in strength, they don't overcome weapon damage with cantrips until 11th level, not considering other boosts to damage martials get. Even when we look at non-cantrip spells, casters are using a finite resource to deal damage just like what a martial should be able to. The only unique thing a caster offers for the first (and most used) half of the game is control effects. After that, casters take the lead on damage while martials are either better for prolonged exchanges and long adventuring days, or are sub-optimal but better than they are right now
I'm really curious where this is going, since if the recommendation is going to be "Just play it as a spellcaster" I don't see it. Unlike the Trickery cleric which gets amazing spells and is totally deserving of ignoring its melee bonuses, the Valor Bard is almost solely focused class-feature wise on making attacks. It's got Combat Inspiration, but I'd argue Cutting Words is just as good if not a BETTER ability than that and the Lore college has many other abilities you can use while still being a caster. I've seen PCs have FUN with this subclass stealing things like Holy Weapon, but knowing these guides and his opinion on Swift Quiver... I'd imagine that will be shot down because "You're a 9th level spellcaster, why aren't you using your concentration for something more important?"
gaining medium armor and shield proficiency is huge by itself. Combat Inspiration is probably a bit weaker than Cutting Words but certainly still a major improvement over standard BI use (since it can increase AC). Extra Attack > cantrip scaling thanks to adding DEX to damage (except maybe when you get 4 damage dice on cantrips) and the Longbow has a range only matched by the best attack cantrips around, so your at will damage (notoriously a sore spot for bards) is improved, even if it's not up to par with martial characters. The ability to cast and attack together just adds a bit of that at will damage to every round. Valour Bards don't need or benefit much from any martial investment beyond what the subclass gives you, and are still first and foremost spellcasters.
In my campaign we house ruled the spell heat metal can be used on your weapon or other aly weapon and when the character hits an ememy with the heat metal weapon, it does its dmg and the heat metal dmg (2d8)
Hey @treatmonk ! Love your content, learned so much and helped me find my playstyle. Could you do a build of a Glamour bard? how you'd do it? I think this looks like a real fun subclass. Thank you!
My personal favourite thing to do with a Valor Bard's extra attack is grappling. With access to Expertise and enough room to fit Athletics proficiency, Grapple+Shove prone is a good way to disable a strong enemy, especially one with a strong wisdom save (bards don't have many disables that don't target wisdom). You don't even need to invest heavily in Strength to be decent at it with double proficiency bonus. Also, I'm pretty sure Yuan-ti is pronounced "wan-ti".
This is quite dangerous for a bard with Standard Array. Since you won't be grappling much with a 10 in STR either, you will be looking at dumping two out of DEX, CON, INT and WIS. Since dumping DEX and CON is not very viable (especially on a grappler), you are taking (almost certainly) INT 8 and WIS 10, severely weakening several important things: all knowledge skills and Investigation (wich is very unfortunate, since you get half-proficiency anyway and often bards are relied upon by the groupx to deal with those), so is any Arcana utility checks, Insight (crucial for diplomancing), Perception and WIS saving throws. All those things may seem minor, but with mediocre ~12 STR you best target for grappling is enemy casters/archers. Then I look again at those Perception and Arcana checks, and WIS saves that were lowered, and your not-so-great AC/HP. And you really shouldn't be grappling that often, it's a real situational thing because of bounded accuracy and concentration. It can work, but it's a real daredevil move.
Nicolas Lanza Flores don’t use standard array, that just leads to dump stats, which is an utterly stupid concept that takes away from the game IMO. If you still insist you can use Dragonborn and get Str and CHR to 16, with con and Dex still 12. I am playing this now and it’s fine. I went into Sorcerer first level for RP reasons, the spells are just ok but the highlight is CON saves. Then feats go into shield master then Str and CHR. It’s better just to prone them in most cases, depending on group composition. We have an atypical group, with no Hexblade cheese and actual front line people in a Paladin and monk. They can really benefit from attacking prone creatures.
Well you can't have everything, there is always (and should be) a tradeoff. Second, starting as a Sorcerer gives you those, and then you get CON save proficiency. CON save proficiency saves you the cost of taking resilient, although you still might want to take Warcaster anyway. The cost of course is delaying everything one level. I am playing this now and its fine, the advantages are good but not great but being behind a level for everything is a lot to give up.
Now, the DM in me loves when Bards take the melee cantrips. Since I am the DM I can freely trade every monsters HP to just bury Bards who melee incorrectly (not carefully) or tarry too long in melee. Ask your DM, if you have something that can be tied to one of those cantrips like a Dragonborn with a lightning breathe weapon or a tiefling for green flame blade I would just give it to you. It wont unbalance anything (no cantrip can,) it will connect you to your PC more (that's good for the game and you,) and it will have you put more into your PC then just the numbers as you need to come up with a reason.
WrittenInShadow Take a level of Hexblade and it fixes everything. Or if your party already have plenty of magic and delayed spells won’t matter much, take Fighter 1 Hexblade 1 or Sorcerer 1 Hexblade 1.
M0ebius we had a thread on this before, with the usual “Hexblade fixes everything” that was addressed Lore Bard Debuffer: Spell Selection and Choice of Dip www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=652661
Personally if going for a one level dip getting CON saves through Sorcerer then going Valor Bard is far better then Hexblade then going Lore. Getting those CON saves is saving a feat that you can use for something different.
I think due to jack-of-all-trades you are slightly under selling the advantage of being proficient in as many skills as possible. You can't give the help action if you're aren't proficient with a skill. Over the course of a campaign the help action is used countless times for countless different things.
Here's a build that I'm thinking about to maximize effectiveness in melee for this Bard: Invest in Strength, use a two handed heavy weapon, and tack on Great Weapon Master. You get two attacks per turn: if both hit, that could be an instant +20 to damage with GWM: you could even use a familiar to give you advantage with the Help Action to mitigate the -5 penalty. Also, this would improve Battle Magic, as you can use this feat *whenever* you make a weapon attack: not just when you make the Attack Action. Furthermore, if you kill an enemy with your weapon or get a critical hit, you can make another melee weapon attack as a Bonus Action.
So many people say bards were bad in 2e and 3e, but they were honestly pretty broken in both if built right. Granted "built right" would require splatbooks instead of just phb.
2e Bards were broken? I guess you had rogue XP levels, so technically a loremaster could access 3rd level spells slightly before a Wizard, but that didn't hold long.
Add a level in Sorcerer and take the damage cantrips. In the Bard list the only cantrips worth taking are mage hand, prestidigitation, mending and minor illusion. So those are the ones I take. I always take Criminal or Urchin (or my own SERE background) to get proficiency in stealth and thieves' tools.
If the big sell of Valor Bards over Lore Bards is Medium Armor and Shields, why not take Lore Bards and pick up the Moderately Armored feat at 4, which gives you proficiency in Medium Armor and Shields? Delaying the Charisma ASI is a bummer, but it seems like a bargain to me to be able to pick up two spells from any class at level 6. Think of it in terms of a feat. Magic Initiate is a good feat, and it's two cantrips and one level 1 spell. How many classes would happily wait on their primary stat if they could, for a feat, pick up two spells from any class from levels 1-3? Love your videos, keep up the good work.
I disagree that the 2 spells known at level 6 is worth 2 points of Cha. By level 6 you are already into accessing the very strong LVL 3-5 Bard spell list, so it's not like those slots aren't getting terrific use, but the Lore bard becomes an inferior spellcaster with lower to hit and DC with those spell slots.
@@TreantmonksTemple you make it sound like there aren't any good spell candidates for magical secrets that don't require a save. you could always get something like Spirit Guardians or Dispel Magic or Find Steed just to name a few
Another option is to start with 1 level of Fighter and you get all armors and shield. Then you take the rest of the your levels in Bard, eventually getting Lore or Glamour as subclasses (since you don't need armor and shield proficiency from Valor anymore). This way, you get what TM says is one of the biggest advantages of a Valor Bard, and your ASIs will still be the same, albeit 1 level late. Instead of getting that CHA boost at character level 4, you get it at 5. I'm seriously wondering about this because if TM says that a Valor Bard won't really be using his rapier a lot, then the above build gets the needed proficiencies without being burdened by its other features like extra attack that he won't ever use. And he gets other useful features in addition. Thoughts please. Thank you. :)
Oh and I have tried TM's Valor build and the armor and shield proficiencies are indeed a godsend to a bard and probably is the greatest draw to being a Valor Bard. I also didn't mind not having Magical Secrets at level 6. It's just that I was wondering if it would be better to just dip fighter (and get Defensive fighting style for that +1AC too boot) at the start to immediately get the best part of Valor Bard without committing to the subclass. Thanks!
@@faithkeep I'm interested in this too. I think the simple answer as to why not really just comes down to TM looking to single-class this build. But I am considering bard for my next game, and wondering whether I can get the benefits of the valor seen in this tutorial, but also get the benefit from Lore bards.
I've watched this a number of times now. Parts 1-3 gearing up to play a Valor Bard in Dungeon of the mad mage. I couldn't help but wonder what the selections would be now that Tasha's has optional spells, additional feats and there are a number of optional spells and class features I suggest would be used. Like the optional switching of cantrips and expertise.
I'd give up 1 level for Hexblade Warlock, that level 1 dip makes it where you use your Charisma modifier to use with a weapon. If you want it with all weapons that you have on person, be willingly to give up 3 weapons. I like doing 1 level dip, but 3 levels shores you up.
I watched all of these videos, and I even have a valor bard I run in one game. However, your main argument for valor bard focuses on medium armor proficiency. Why then wouldn't a better option to be to pick a lore (or other bard) and take the moderately armored feat especially with a variant human build?
Well, Lore bard gives us 2 more spells known. By taking human we are giving up 2 spells known. In addition we are giving up a cantrip, 2 spell slots, and darkvision. How is that better? Now we could keep Half-Drow and take moderately armored at level 4, then we are just making our DC worse which means almost all our spells are weaker than if we took Valor Bard, and since we are focusing on spellcasting, not sure how that's better either.
@@theonlymatthew.l It's supposed to be a pure Bard build, but min/max wise, give up 1 level for Hexblade. You'll get medium armor + shield & martial prof, along with charisma for weapon. Go 3 levels, pact of the blade to extend that Cha to all weapons you have, and take invocation to expand weapon choices and make all non magical weapons normal.
@@Zarsla Your point is valid However: in either case you talk about, think about the actual play experience at the table. Every lvl dip has it's huge downside. You'll be sitting there next to the player who's a lvl 10 valor bard with their greater steed and holy weapon or whatever, and you're sitting there with only 1 fifth level slot, no secrets etc. If you were 3/7 then you'd have 4th lvl spells and a few gimmicks instead of full lvl 10 Bard Magical Secret greatness. It's not that you shouldn't dip, it's just understanding the huge disparity that comes with slowing down your progression. And when you play a full caster in an actual campaign, the straight full caster is the most intuitive path. You might be playing "at lvl 10" for 3 or 4 months.
@@dominicl5862 Depends. I see a Valor Bard, like a more gish type Bard(using fighting and magic in combo in battle )and a lvl 1 dip in hexblade really helps for that. Now 3 lvl dip is a bit more extreme and more depends on how your building your character. But a 1st lvl dip isn't bad as your emphasizing the more combative side of the Valor bard. As Valor Bards are more lean into that gish/jack of all trades feel.
I was wondering about that 16 DEX, as you don't make random decisions. Saw MAM in a comment below and nodded. Halfling, good DEX, not wanting to be hit... Hiding may not be every round, but it's a good option to have.
Grimmlocked Bards also get it on their spell list, and once you’ve reached level 3, sleep has become less useful and you have a few more spell slots to cast faerie fire with. It’s a good enough spell that it won’t hurt to be able to cast it multiple times in a day.
@@Adurnis the way he worded it late in the video made it sounded like you didnt have too switch into it and that you got it from your race. I'm familiar with the reason Faerie Fire is good. I play a light cleric on Wednesday nights. Praise Pelor!
@@Adurnis I played a mid level sorcer who took magic initiate bard just for heightened faerie fire for a one shot. Spell has my pick for one of the best in the game (but my best friend loves making crit fishing builds and often appreciates being setup so I might be biased)
@@Grimmlocked I haven't used or seen FF used a lot, so I may be mistaken, but my thought is along the lines that it is a situational spell (mainly used against invisible opponents) and thus being able to cast it just once per day would be good enough, so essentially the profit from having it as a racial spell would be that I open up one bard slot so I can have an extra known spell. Crit-fishing allies aside, would you say that it's a spell I would profit from being able to cast more than once per day? I will take even an educated guess. Thanks in advance.
It’s best to multi class into Swashbuckler Rogue the rest of the way. I’m level fourteen with 8 levels in bard and 6 levels in rogue. Going to rest of the way in rogue to 20.
One very simple question that I feel justifies Valor Bards as bad forever. If a subclass is made with the expectation of being good matially and it is NOT good for that how can you argue it is anything but bad?
Ebonzai It is probably just bad design. Luckily a level or two in Hexblade fixes most of the problems, which frankly I think is what Hexblade was designed to do.
Can you expand on how hexblade helps? I'm building a valor bard with a warlock-esque story thing going on and thinking about multi-classing with lock, but not sure how it really helps compared to valor alone.
A charlatan or custom background would have been much more useful than the entertainer background. You essentially get the entertainer features by being a bard.
Great guide, thanks!! You persuaded me to play a Valor bard instead of Lore. But i am thinking of dipping my first level into Sorcerer. How do you think that compares to the full Valor bard?
@@theonlymatthew.l Thanks for the advise! But i was more interested in Valor bard! I have played lore numerous times and i dislike the warlock dip thematically. I just wanted to know if straight Valor is better than Sorc 1/Valor X
Regarding Spell Focus, one idea is use a Flute Staff and take Polearm Master with Variant Human if you chose Valor Bard expecting to actually beatdown foes with your weapon from time to time. The bonus action attack will mitigate the delayed Extra Attack, especially if you also multiclass Hexblade and cycle Hex/BB or GFB with PAM attacks. Remember that if you take War Caster later on you can wield a staff in one hand and shield in the other.
If your DM plays along with that, sure, but I don't believe Flute Staff is an actual item, and there will be places (like AL) where this won't fly. Cool idea though!
Pink Well I mean it’s a real world instrument. And DnDBeyond has a magic item called Buddhist Flute that specifically said it’s both a flute and a bo staff, so conceivably something like that exists in the Forgotten Realms.
Pink If he doesn’t, describe how you juggle free action weapon drop and object interaction draw instrument, rinse/repeat vice versa, round after round after round in slow and excruciating detail. He might see the light.
it took me 2 years to figure out what my problem with my video is. Most people dont want to play valor bard as an armored caster. They want to play a spellsword. And you never tell it in this video that this isnt going to be a spellsword. People who want to see it work, are given no explanation why not to do that, just a "this is the best way to play"
I suppose he never said explicitly, "We aren't building a spellsword/ gish today." But he did make very clear that bards don't get any spell options or class features that augment their abilities in melee combat and went so far as to (accurately) claim that Extra Attack and a bonus action attack aren't nearly enough to equal the abilities of any martial character. He also made very clear that a bard's strength is in their spell progression as a full caster. For *any* character that gets high level spells, their spellcasting is the most important and most powerful thing they can ever do. I found it pretty obvious, even the first time I watched, that these explanations were going to inform the build choices. I do agree that this video is a much more thorough demonstration of why bards are good, rather than why valor bards are that much better than other bards, and that aspect I don't really care for. But for you to think that you can or should make a valor bard into an effective melee combatant and then pretend as if Chris offered 'no explanation why not' is pretty disingenuous.
Human bard with spell casting initiate warlock: hex and eldritch blast. Dual wield short swords for potential 4d6 per turn at level 1. Level 11 (I think) valor will be able to shoot 4d8 a turn (swift quiver I belive. Combine that with a 5th level bestow curse and it becomes 8d8. Valor bard is good throughout early levels and mid levels.
Not sure why you'd take Eldritch Blast if you're using Short Swords. I know it gives you a ranged option, but I'd point out having the ability to target a save, as opposed to AC, is probably better than an AC attack you will rarely use since you don't get the +CHA to damage.
@@miahmagick you take chill touch and EB because they are only cantrips not on the bard spell list aside from poison spray. EB does a rare damage type that is equal in damage die to a crossbow. If you later want to develop more into warlock maybe do or don't take this as a level one. Eldritch blast is one of the best cantrips even without going warlock though as it gives you multiple chances to crit since each blast calls for its own roll. It is overall a safer bet than most cantrips for that reason.
Unless you're playing with just the PHB, the statement they're the only non-shared spells is not true. In addition, just because they're not on the bard spell list doesn't mean they warrant a slot. A bard isn't going to get all their cantrips, and I'd much rather have Mage Hand, Mending, Message, etc than a cantrip I will never cast like Chill Touch. EB's damage is also not equal to a Light Crossbow early on because, even with the low-end assumption of 14 DEX, 1d10 =/= 1d8+2. There's a major difference between a minimum of 1 damage and a minimum of 3 (and often 4 in most builds I see). I can see the argument that once it becomes 2d10 and on that it becomes a different argument, but that goes for most damage cantrips. In addition, while its ability to crit' fish is an admitted advantage, its not exactly comparable to (save-targeting) spells that can't crit' in the first place, but instead don't suffer from advantage/disadvantage of any kind, and has no penalties in melee (which should be relevant to a melee Bard). Force damage is indeed a good damage type, but the number of encounters that's going to be relevant < the number of encounters being able to target a non-AC stat is relevant. I'd look into Toll the Dead, for starters. It targets WIS, and does 1d12 to targets that aren't at full HP. The damage type is Necrotic, so not a bad damage type, and gives you both more damage and targeting diversity than either Chill Touch and EB.
Dustin Smith Why not just MC 1-2 levels of Hexblade? At level 14 Valor Bard you get Battle Magic and you can make more at-will attacks with full modifiers than a level 20 Fighter with Eldritch Blast+Weapon, buffed with Hex/Hexblade’s Curse (~50 dmg per round on average, ~80 dmg if you stack them). That’s serious fire power even late game, and you STILL get your level 9 spells.
Pink You are not factoring in the to-hit chance when comparing EB and Crossbow at early levels. An additional 5% chance to hit is roughly equal to the 1 dmg difference. Past level 5 it’s not comparable and EB all the way. Also if you are going to use minimum damage as an argument in the case of Crossbows, then when compared to Toll the Dead EB is probably the better choice as well since EB spreads the damage out in multiple rolls and TTD does 0 dmg on a single save.
Ok so I watched the part where you say they’re great spellcasters, and then that the valor bard’s extra attack and war magic aren’t very useful. Do you ever then explain why you would ever pick valor over the other subclasses? That seems like a pretty major point to skip over before going deep into race choice, etc.
Judd W Rose There are multiple threads in part 2 discussing this very issue. Basically I think TM makes a strong case when comparing straight Valor/Lore, but not so much against multiclassed builds. The gist is that Armor+Shield is very very good (true), and Lore Bards with their 14 AC are very very bad at staying alive (also true).
@@M0ebius I just have a 13 wisdom and multi-class a level or two into cleric LOL. Hell if you do a Tempest or War Cleric you get more armor and weapon proficiencies than the Valor Bard
My basic problem with this whole thing is. Trading two, entire, important, subclass features to have: A slightly better than cantrip option. That's it. A second attack, ehh. Depending on the weapon you use it will be better than a firebolt until someone gets 4d10+ features. You also are provided no defensive reasons to justify being in melee at all. Swords collage at least compensates you. I do like the level 3 ability though.
I see you point and imho a Valor Bard can be improved with feats or multi. Heavy armor Bardladin, for instance. Or certain "skald" fighter/bard or bb/bard builds.
You use two hands to play the "typical" horn. One hand to hold it, one hand to change the pitch by covering the holes drilled into it. E.g. Ram horn: ruclips.net/video/dBwd5iI0LcA/видео.html
You could play some small flutes with one hand. I think it's common to play the Pan flute with both hands, but it should be playable with one hand, too. Sorry for picking nits, but you like facts, right?
Thank you for your insight. I think Treantmonk got the horn you're talking about and the hunting/war horn mixed up. He mentioned Boromir, who wasn't exactly an orchestra player.
In my opinion don’t even bother playing Valor Bards, or even Sword Bards, unless you also plan on taking 1 or more levels in Hexblade. The subclass is sold as a gish when really it’s a caster with weapon attacks that you will never ever want to use because your stats suck. Hexblade fixes that, and also give you access to Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade/Eldritch Blast to tie you over to Extra Attack.
You surely could make a straight valor bard before, but now that the hexxy exists... The whimsical me imagines that the designer of the hexblade only created level 1 and needed to be reminded that he had to design more than a one level dip. Adventurers League limits you to just +1 source book, so hexblade and booming blade is a no-go. (I think that +1 book rule is actually a good one in general.) Anyway, I think if I could take Booming Blade, I honestly wouldn't bother with a valor bard and instead take spirit guardians as a magical secret.
Micah Iwaasa I think Hexblade is designed specifically to fix/boost these Charisma gish builds. Otherwise Extra Attack just end up being like the Cleric’s Divine Strike, a pointless class feature that you’d never use. I just kind of wish they’d do the same for Wisdom/Intelligence gishes. Like a Battle Domain Cleric that lets you use Wisdom for weapon attack/dmg at level 1 and Shield as a domain spell. Or a Divine Templar Fighter that allows the same at level 3 and lets you use the weapon as a focus.
timeforsuchaword I get it but Combat Inspiration is basically only good for the AC boost once you are past the early levels. If you’re not beating down with your weapon then you might as well go Lore Bard because 9/10 times Cutting Words is equal or better at mitigating damage. In fact I would go so far as to say that a Lore Bard Hexblade is better than a straight Valor Bard in the exact same roles.
That helps in the early levels, but later on when you're mostly casting spells with an action Eldritch Blast and weapon attacks will be much less of a boon.
You come across as far less edgy in your videos compared to your written guides. As a brainlet this disappoints me because I need everything to be as edgy as possible.
![Chlöe - Shake (Feat. Jeremih) [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aDs_1ufpfv8/mqdefault.jpg)
Viscous mockery is just so fun, even if it's bad at higher levels, saying mean things to people and causing harm is great.
I agree, it's a lot of fun to roleplay. Also, if you do get to finish off someone with it, you've hurt their feelings...TO DEATH!
slight thing to note about the sleep spell. being a half elf means you have fey ancestry so even if your hit points are lower you do not count towards the sleep total due to being immune
I note there is a Strength based with Athletics expertise build you could also take the Valour Bard. Spells are still your primary tool, but shoves and grabs broaden your options when not doing that. The ability to use all martial weapons is a nice side effect.
Oh sweet a valor bard guide. Been kinda curious about this class/subclass cant wait for the whole thing!
Woo hoo, Valor bard! Looking forward to this one; convince me not to go Lore every time 😄
Valor bards are very difficult to kill. Very good AC. Decent HP. Healing spells for days. They are great at disabling foes. Sleep, dissonant whispers etc...
Yes, and they also seem to work well with multiclassing. A single Draconic Sorcerer level gives one 13+Dex mod armor for life.
One mistake: The instrument being playable onehanded doesn't matter, because you don't have to actually play it to use it as a spell focus - merely touch it.
Other than that, great work, as always.
Half-Elf is my go to on any Charisma based class. The potential to start with 3 16's with point buy is gold.
Christopher McKee You and everyone else.
Top 5
1 Half Elf
2 Variant Human
3 Aasimar
4 Yuan-Ti
5 Warforged Envoy
@@M0ebius unlike everyone else, I have no interest in playing a non PHB race, so for me that list stops at 2.
Christopher McKee Yeah the best 2. You really can’t go wrong with either.
@@M0ebius in defense of the other phb races imho the Wood Elf has a lot of flavor and a Mountain Dwarf can make for a terrific Str Bard (16 10 16 10 10 14 at 1st level plus weapon proficiencies and medium armor, you may still go Dex with 10 15 16 8 10 15).
May I just say, your gamers clip made my heart grow three sizes😊
Great start, TM!
This Tiefling subrace is really good for bards! Have never even thought about that one, damn!
But definetly this Half-Drow is fantastic as well, goo call picking it for the purposes of the guide.
That was my first choice ever Tiefling bard xD
You shortchanged the Eladrin. Their Fey Step ability recharges on a short rest, not just a long rest
You are correct. I must have misread or misspoke.
Eladrin, Half-Elf, and Tabaxi are my favorite bard races. Actually getting to play a PC regularly for the first time in years as I usually DM and I've been playing a Tabaxi bard (college of valor) as my first long term 5e PC. It's a little bit trickier starting out than the other bard subclasses I think are viable if you are starting at low level and trying to build a long term character (College of Lore or Glamour are the others I like) but it comes into it's own more and more as you advance in levels. I'm chomping at the bit to get to double digits in level and really start stretching my legs ability/ character utility wise! Hope to play a lore bard through a campaign or two eventually as well but I think my next character will be a Human Battlemaster Fighter or a Half Elf or Eladrin Oath of the Ancients Pally...
I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes! Only thing I'd change myself so far is to take Thunderwave. The AoE and pushback is still useful on my level 13 handcrossbow weilding swords college bard (reskinned as a knife thrower). He's got all that way with only 14 charisma relying on his high Dex and using support spells with no spell DC or attacks.
Only issue with the spell is the sound component. Most DMs don't take it into account, but those that do WILL make the entire dungeon rush your party if you use this.
Something of note: no where in any books does it say you have to play your musical instrument to use it as a spellcasting focus. It just needs to be in your hand. So there's no need to take an instrument you can play with one hand such as a horn, just any you could easily hold in 1 hand when you need to cast spells.
My personal favourite is to take a piccolo and pretend it's a wand
Getting an extra attack + Expertise in athletics skill = Who needs weapons?
Bards are very heavy on battlefield control, and are weak on damage. Valor bards are no different. You are thinking about attacks exclusively as a means to do damage, but they are also an amazing single target control ability. One which has unlimited uses.
I played with a dude who played a high Str Grappler bard. High str, Athl expertise, Grappler feat. Restrain an enemy for free.
I am interested in how TM handles the inspiration dice. I always thought Valor bards have the best use of BI, they get the regular benefits (saving throws) and also AC increase for the recipient. Giving an ally a saving throw or AC bonus at no action cost to you (give them out before combat) is a big boost, it can prevent that big hit or that saving throw that breaks a spell caster concentration. The valor bard by virtue of having decent AC doesn't need to keep the inspiration die for their own use, making their effective pool larger.
I always thought a better implementation of the BI dice is that you cant use them on yourself but the reset on any rest. I never tried it though even as an experiment.
smbakeresq Cutting Words does the same thing. Yeah it cost reaction, but you can put it where you need it, including yourself. Most Bards won’t have ways to use their reactions anyway, and it’s not a given that every or even most combat you’d get to pre-buff. Not to mention Cutting Words’ other uses: damage mitigation is very good against AOEs and skill checks are good for grapples and also in social situations. Combat Inspiration’s damage die on the other hand is almost never worth it, and late game is more or less useless.
This video has so few comments, especially for a sub-class that has so much potential. Doing an archer gish with this class, especially an elf for elven accuracy, gives so much versatility and potential to combat, exploration, and for everything else this game may ask.
This would be a balanced class except for the bards extra spells from any class. No other gish gets full spell progression/slots, and the bard’s skill bonuses make them useful in any circumstance.
To give a glimpse into my thought process, here’s the thing that makes valor bard broken: build an elf bard with feats that focus on archery. Elven accuracy at 4, sharpshooter at 8. By level 8, you have level 4 spells (superior invisibility), extra attack, and bardic inspo per short rest.
At 10, take find greater steed & swift quiver. You now have tons of extra movement, concentration-free flight, a mount that benefits from your buffs, and the ability to weave concentration-free spells into 2 sharpshooter attacks regardless of the roll the spell takes in your background.
At 14, take sunbeam as one of your choices, and you can literally aoe blind people every action then take a BA pot shot of sharpshooter.
Add the benefits of elven accuracy to enhance ability, and your barcher will now nearly always succeed, assuming they can guess what the next big section of the story is.
I love the gish play style, and I can’t think of a better kit that allows for both spells & weapon attacks from 1-20. You can give yourself advantage regularly, utilize spells from end game progression mechanics far earlier than the class they were designed for, and they use them better honestly. No ranger will ever use swift quiver as effectively as a valor bard, and no class allows for the versatility this creates. You can even mass heal the party then do 25+ damage on the same turn. No one else can do that!
I’m rambling, my apologies. To sum up, this class is now one of my favorites, and if you like the idea of weaving spells & attacks, this is your class
I caught that dorkness rising reference
Some folks have respectfully shared a tip about the half-drow. A dark-skinned human parent means it's harder to spot the Drow in the character. All most people would see is the elf. And in many settings folks do not care about skin colour. Example: if you start in Thay as a half-Mulan you're not gonna raise any eyebrows.
Havent seen the rest of this build but there is a slight redundancy in the stat array. Valor bards can pick up medium armour but medium armour only allows you to get a maximum bonus of +2 from dexterity. I would swap the Dex 16 and Con 14 around do maximise the effect of your dex on your AC. Obviously Dex saves are common but so are Con saves and it also helps with mantaining your concentration.
Medium Armor Master is coming....
Well played sir, well played.
Treantmonk's Temple You already have shield proficiency. Why not just take War Caster and wield a shield for 2 more AC and advantage to concentration checks?
@@M0ebius You are thinking of moderately armored. Medium Armor Master allows you to use any medium armor without disadvantage to stealth and allows you to use up to a +3 dex modifier to AC with medium armors.
Treantmonk's Temple Right, which is 1 more AC than regular medium armor. With War Caster and a shield you get 2 more AC. If the concern is with Stealth then use a breast plate and you end up with the same AC but advantage on concentration checks still.
Just thinking out loud, but what would happen if we doubled the damage dice of all weapons? So a dagger is 2d4, a short sword is 2d6, a great sword is 4d6, etc. I don't think it would unbalance the game too much. Martials can roll more dice, which is satisfying. They deal more damage, which is most noticeable at early levels when they're stronger than casters anyway. As casters grow in strength, they don't overcome weapon damage with cantrips until 11th level, not considering other boosts to damage martials get. Even when we look at non-cantrip spells, casters are using a finite resource to deal damage just like what a martial should be able to. The only unique thing a caster offers for the first (and most used) half of the game is control effects. After that, casters take the lead on damage while martials are either better for prolonged exchanges and long adventuring days, or are sub-optimal but better than they are right now
I'm really curious where this is going, since if the recommendation is going to be "Just play it as a spellcaster" I don't see it. Unlike the Trickery cleric which gets amazing spells and is totally deserving of ignoring its melee bonuses, the Valor Bard is almost solely focused class-feature wise on making attacks. It's got Combat Inspiration, but I'd argue Cutting Words is just as good if not a BETTER ability than that and the Lore college has many other abilities you can use while still being a caster.
I've seen PCs have FUN with this subclass stealing things like Holy Weapon, but knowing these guides and his opinion on Swift Quiver... I'd imagine that will be shot down because "You're a 9th level spellcaster, why aren't you using your concentration for something more important?"
gaining medium armor and shield proficiency is huge by itself. Combat Inspiration is probably a bit weaker than Cutting Words but certainly still a major improvement over standard BI use (since it can increase AC).
Extra Attack > cantrip scaling thanks to adding DEX to damage (except maybe when you get 4 damage dice on cantrips) and the Longbow has a range only matched by the best attack cantrips around, so your at will damage (notoriously a sore spot for bards) is improved, even if it's not up to par with martial characters.
The ability to cast and attack together just adds a bit of that at will damage to every round.
Valour Bards don't need or benefit much from any martial investment beyond what the subclass gives you, and are still first and foremost spellcasters.
In my campaign we house ruled the spell heat metal can be used on your weapon or other aly weapon and when the character hits an ememy with the heat metal weapon, it does its dmg and the heat metal dmg (2d8)
Hey @treatmonk ! Love your content, learned so much and helped me find my playstyle. Could you do a build of a Glamour bard? how you'd do it? I think this looks like a real fun subclass. Thank you!
I use fae step and then cast misty step. It's a very devastating combo, almost broken
And then Action Surge.
My personal favourite thing to do with a Valor Bard's extra attack is grappling. With access to Expertise and enough room to fit Athletics proficiency, Grapple+Shove prone is a good way to disable a strong enemy, especially one with a strong wisdom save (bards don't have many disables that don't target wisdom). You don't even need to invest heavily in Strength to be decent at it with double proficiency bonus.
Also, I'm pretty sure Yuan-ti is pronounced "wan-ti".
Just make sure you picked something up to help you with concentration if you're going into melee.
@@lughfiregod16 I probably need War Caster anyways, since I'll be holding a shield in one hand and a person in the other, so that should help.
If you are going warcaster it let’s you plan your abilities differently
This is quite dangerous for a bard with Standard Array. Since you won't be grappling much with a 10 in STR either, you will be looking at dumping two out of DEX, CON, INT and WIS. Since dumping DEX and CON is not very viable (especially on a grappler), you are taking (almost certainly) INT 8 and WIS 10, severely weakening several important things: all knowledge skills and Investigation (wich is very unfortunate, since you get half-proficiency anyway and often bards are relied upon by the groupx to deal with those), so is any Arcana utility checks, Insight (crucial for diplomancing), Perception and WIS saving throws.
All those things may seem minor, but with mediocre ~12 STR you best target for grappling is enemy casters/archers. Then I look again at those Perception and Arcana checks, and WIS saves that were lowered, and your not-so-great AC/HP. And you really shouldn't be grappling that often, it's a real situational thing because of bounded accuracy and concentration. It can work, but it's a real daredevil move.
Nicolas Lanza Flores don’t use standard array, that just leads to dump stats, which is an utterly stupid concept that takes away from the game IMO. If you still insist you can use Dragonborn and get Str and CHR to 16, with con and Dex still 12. I am playing this now and it’s fine. I went into Sorcerer first level for RP reasons, the spells are just ok but the highlight is CON saves. Then feats go into shield master then Str and CHR. It’s better just to prone them in most cases, depending on group composition.
We have an atypical group, with no Hexblade cheese and actual front line people in a Paladin and monk. They can really benefit from attacking prone creatures.
I really wish that bards got access to the SCAG cantrips. It would have worked very well with the Valor bard mechanically and thematically.
Well you can't have everything, there is always (and should be) a tradeoff. Second, starting as a Sorcerer gives you those, and then you get CON save proficiency. CON save proficiency saves you the cost of taking resilient, although you still might want to take Warcaster anyway. The cost of course is delaying everything one level. I am playing this now and its fine, the advantages are good but not great but being behind a level for everything is a lot to give up.
Now, the DM in me loves when Bards take the melee cantrips. Since I am the DM I can freely trade every monsters HP to just bury Bards who melee incorrectly (not carefully) or tarry too long in melee. Ask your DM, if you have something that can be tied to one of those cantrips like a Dragonborn with a lightning breathe weapon or a tiefling for green flame blade I would just give it to you. It wont unbalance anything (no cantrip can,) it will connect you to your PC more (that's good for the game and you,) and it will have you put more into your PC then just the numbers as you need to come up with a reason.
WrittenInShadow Take a level of Hexblade and it fixes everything. Or if your party already have plenty of magic and delayed spells won’t matter much, take Fighter 1 Hexblade 1 or Sorcerer 1 Hexblade 1.
M0ebius we had a thread on this before, with the usual “Hexblade fixes everything” that was addressed Lore Bard Debuffer: Spell Selection and Choice of Dip
www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=652661
Personally if going for a one level dip getting CON saves through Sorcerer then going Valor Bard is far better then Hexblade then going Lore. Getting those CON saves is saving a feat that you can use for something different.
I think due to jack-of-all-trades you are slightly under selling the advantage of being proficient in as many skills as possible. You can't give the help action if you're aren't proficient with a skill. Over the course of a campaign the help action is used countless times for countless different things.
Yes. I was helping our Rogue climb with a rope. GM asked "are you proficient in Athletics". I said yes. GM said "proceed".
@@destroyerinazuma96 cool story?
@@DAEDRICDUKE1 It was just a comical moment for me, though it also showed how strict and no-nonsense our GM was.
Here's a build that I'm thinking about to maximize effectiveness in melee for this Bard: Invest in Strength, use a two handed heavy weapon, and tack on Great Weapon Master.
You get two attacks per turn: if both hit, that could be an instant +20 to damage with GWM: you could even use a familiar to give you advantage with the Help Action to mitigate the -5 penalty.
Also, this would improve Battle Magic, as you can use this feat *whenever* you make a weapon attack: not just when you make the Attack Action.
Furthermore, if you kill an enemy with your weapon or get a critical hit, you can make another melee weapon attack as a Bonus Action.
So many people say bards were bad in 2e and 3e, but they were honestly pretty broken in both if built right. Granted "built right" would require splatbooks instead of just phb.
2e Bards were broken? I guess you had rogue XP levels, so technically a loremaster could access 3rd level spells slightly before a Wizard, but that didn't hold long.
Thank you for the three-part video! Helped me understand the bard more :)
Add a level in Sorcerer and take the damage cantrips.
In the Bard list the only cantrips worth taking are mage hand, prestidigitation, mending and minor illusion. So those are the ones I take.
I always take Criminal or Urchin (or my own SERE background) to get proficiency in stealth and thieves' tools.
Warlock prob is better to multiclass
If the big sell of Valor Bards over Lore Bards is Medium Armor and Shields, why not take Lore Bards and pick up the Moderately Armored feat at 4, which gives you proficiency in Medium Armor and Shields? Delaying the Charisma ASI is a bummer, but it seems like a bargain to me to be able to pick up two spells from any class at level 6.
Think of it in terms of a feat. Magic Initiate is a good feat, and it's two cantrips and one level 1 spell. How many classes would happily wait on their primary stat if they could, for a feat, pick up two spells from any class from levels 1-3?
Love your videos, keep up the good work.
I disagree that the 2 spells known at level 6 is worth 2 points of Cha. By level 6 you are already into accessing the very strong LVL 3-5 Bard spell list, so it's not like those slots aren't getting terrific use, but the Lore bard becomes an inferior spellcaster with lower to hit and DC with those spell slots.
@@TreantmonksTemple you make it sound like there aren't any good spell candidates for magical secrets that don't require a save. you could always get something like Spirit Guardians or Dispel Magic or Find Steed just to name a few
Another option is to start with 1 level of Fighter and you get all armors and shield. Then you take the rest of the your levels in Bard, eventually getting Lore or Glamour as subclasses (since you don't need armor and shield proficiency from Valor anymore). This way, you get what TM says is one of the biggest advantages of a Valor Bard, and your ASIs will still be the same, albeit 1 level late. Instead of getting that CHA boost at character level 4, you get it at 5.
I'm seriously wondering about this because if TM says that a Valor Bard won't really be using his rapier a lot, then the above build gets the needed proficiencies without being burdened by its other features like extra attack that he won't ever use. And he gets other useful features in addition.
Thoughts please. Thank you. :)
Oh and I have tried TM's Valor build and the armor and shield proficiencies are indeed a godsend to a bard and probably is the greatest draw to being a Valor Bard. I also didn't mind not having Magical Secrets at level 6.
It's just that I was wondering if it would be better to just dip fighter (and get Defensive fighting style for that +1AC too boot) at the start to immediately get the best part of Valor Bard without committing to the subclass.
Thanks!
@@faithkeep I'm interested in this too. I think the simple answer as to why not really just comes down to TM looking to single-class this build. But I am considering bard for my next game, and wondering whether I can get the benefits of the valor seen in this tutorial, but also get the benefit from Lore bards.
I just started playing and just found your page. You've been a great help! Do you have any videos where you break down the Bard--College of Lore?
I would also like to see a Lore bard guide. I picked it for a campaign to be full support but they're still a bit squishy :)
I've watched this a number of times now. Parts 1-3 gearing up to play a Valor Bard in Dungeon of the mad mage. I couldn't help but wonder what the selections would be now that Tasha's has optional spells, additional feats and there are a number of optional spells and class features I suggest would be used. Like the optional switching of cantrips and expertise.
I'd give up 1 level for Hexblade Warlock, that level 1 dip makes it where you use your Charisma modifier to use with a weapon.
If you want it with all weapons that you have on person, be willingly to give up 3 weapons.
I like doing 1 level dip, but 3 levels shores you up.
I watched all of these videos, and I even have a valor bard I run in one game. However, your main argument for valor bard focuses on medium armor proficiency. Why then wouldn't a better option to be to pick a lore (or other bard) and take the moderately armored feat especially with a variant human build?
Well, Lore bard gives us 2 more spells known. By taking human we are giving up 2 spells known.
In addition we are giving up a cantrip, 2 spell slots, and darkvision.
How is that better?
Now we could keep Half-Drow and take moderately armored at level 4, then we are just making our DC worse which means almost all our spells are weaker than if we took Valor Bard, and since we are focusing on spellcasting, not sure how that's better either.
Or why not just take a level or two in Hexblade?
@@theonlymatthew.l It's supposed to be a pure Bard build, but min/max wise, give up 1 level for Hexblade.
You'll get medium armor + shield & martial prof, along with charisma for weapon.
Go 3 levels, pact of the blade to extend that Cha to all weapons you have, and take invocation to expand weapon choices and make all non magical weapons normal.
@@Zarsla
Your point is valid However: in either case you talk about, think about the actual play experience at the table. Every lvl dip has it's huge downside. You'll be sitting there next to the player who's a lvl 10 valor bard with their greater steed and holy weapon or whatever, and you're sitting there with only 1 fifth level slot, no secrets etc. If you were 3/7 then you'd have 4th lvl spells and a few gimmicks instead of full lvl 10 Bard Magical Secret greatness.
It's not that you shouldn't dip, it's just understanding the huge disparity that comes with slowing down your progression. And when you play a full caster in an actual campaign, the straight full caster is the most intuitive path. You might be playing "at lvl 10" for 3 or 4 months.
@@dominicl5862
Depends.
I see a Valor Bard, like a more gish type Bard(using fighting and magic in combo in battle )and a lvl 1 dip in hexblade really helps for that.
Now 3 lvl dip is a bit more extreme and more depends on how your building your character.
But a 1st lvl dip isn't bad as your emphasizing the more combative side of the Valor bard.
As Valor Bards are more lean into that gish/jack of all trades feel.
I was wondering about that 16 DEX, as you don't make random decisions. Saw MAM in a comment below and nodded. Halfling, good DEX, not wanting to be hit... Hiding may not be every round, but it's a good option to have.
Can you do Eldrich Knight next???
I ddint think you "learned" the racial spells such as fairie fire with the drow half elf, but could just use them once per day.
Grimmlocked Bards also get it on their spell list, and once you’ve reached level 3, sleep has become less useful and you have a few more spell slots to cast faerie fire with. It’s a good enough spell that it won’t hurt to be able to cast it multiple times in a day.
@@Adurnis
the way he worded it late in the video made it sounded like you didnt have too switch into it and that you got it from your race. I'm familiar with the reason Faerie Fire is good. I play a light cleric on Wednesday nights. Praise Pelor!
Hmm. You might be right… Hope not, it’s an excellent use for a level 1 spell slot even at high levels.
@@Adurnis I played a mid level sorcer who took magic initiate bard just for heightened faerie fire for a one shot.
Spell has my pick for one of the best in the game (but my best friend loves making crit fishing builds and often appreciates being setup so I might be biased)
@@Grimmlocked I haven't used or seen FF used a lot, so I may be mistaken, but my thought is along the lines that it is a situational spell (mainly used against invisible opponents) and thus being able to cast it just once per day would be good enough, so essentially the profit from having it as a racial spell would be that I open up one bard slot so I can have an extra known spell. Crit-fishing allies aside, would you say that it's a spell I would profit from being able to cast more than once per day? I will take even an educated guess. Thanks in advance.
It’s best to multi class into Swashbuckler Rogue the rest of the way. I’m level fourteen with 8 levels in bard and 6 levels in rogue. Going to rest of the way in rogue to 20.
One very simple question that I feel justifies Valor Bards as bad forever. If a subclass is made with the expectation of being good matially and it is NOT good for that how can you argue it is anything but bad?
Ebonzai It is probably just bad design. Luckily a level or two in Hexblade fixes most of the problems, which frankly I think is what Hexblade was designed to do.
Can you expand on how hexblade helps? I'm building a valor bard with a warlock-esque story thing going on and thinking about multi-classing with lock, but not sure how it really helps compared to valor alone.
My only complaint is it's not a longer video.
I like variant human and use the feat to take magic initiative or spell sniper for the extra cantrips
A charlatan or custom background would have been much more useful than the entertainer background. You essentially get the entertainer features by being a bard.
Great guide, thanks!! You persuaded me to play a Valor bard instead of Lore. But i am thinking of dipping my first level into Sorcerer. How do you think that compares to the full Valor bard?
Better yet take a couple levels of Hexblade and then go Lore Bard. Get the best attack cantrip in the game, then grab Devil's sight & Agonizing Blast.
@@theonlymatthew.l Thanks for the advise! But i was more interested in Valor bard! I have played lore numerous times and i dislike the warlock dip thematically. I just wanted to know if straight Valor is better than Sorc 1/Valor X
Regarding Spell Focus, one idea is use a Flute Staff and take Polearm Master with Variant Human if you chose Valor Bard expecting to actually beatdown foes with your weapon from time to time. The bonus action attack will mitigate the delayed Extra Attack, especially if you also multiclass Hexblade and cycle Hex/BB or GFB with PAM attacks.
Remember that if you take War Caster later on you can wield a staff in one hand and shield in the other.
If your DM plays along with that, sure, but I don't believe Flute Staff is an actual item, and there will be places (like AL) where this won't fly.
Cool idea though!
Pink Well I mean it’s a real world instrument. And DnDBeyond has a magic item called Buddhist Flute that specifically said it’s both a flute and a bo staff, so conceivably something like that exists in the Forgotten Realms.
Like I said: if your DM plays along.
Pink If he doesn’t, describe how you juggle free action weapon drop and object interaction draw instrument, rinse/repeat vice versa, round after round after round in slow and excruciating detail. He might see the light.
XD I'll keep that in mind.
That said, I tend to play my more martial-minded Bards as grapplers, so I tend to have a hand open anyway.
it took me 2 years to figure out what my problem with my video is.
Most people dont want to play valor bard as an armored caster.
They want to play a spellsword.
And you never tell it in this video that this isnt going to be a spellsword.
People who want to see it work, are given no explanation why not to do that, just a "this is the best way to play"
I suppose he never said explicitly, "We aren't building a spellsword/ gish today." But he did make very clear that bards don't get any spell options or class features that augment their abilities in melee combat and went so far as to (accurately) claim that Extra Attack and a bonus action attack aren't nearly enough to equal the abilities of any martial character. He also made very clear that a bard's strength is in their spell progression as a full caster. For *any* character that gets high level spells, their spellcasting is the most important and most powerful thing they can ever do.
I found it pretty obvious, even the first time I watched, that these explanations were going to inform the build choices. I do agree that this video is a much more thorough demonstration of why bards are good, rather than why valor bards are that much better than other bards, and that aspect I don't really care for. But for you to think that you can or should make a valor bard into an effective melee combatant and then pretend as if Chris offered 'no explanation why not' is pretty disingenuous.
What book do I need to access half elf Drow?
Human bard with spell casting initiate warlock: hex and eldritch blast. Dual wield short swords for potential 4d6 per turn at level 1. Level 11 (I think) valor will be able to shoot 4d8 a turn (swift quiver I belive. Combine that with a 5th level bestow curse and it becomes 8d8. Valor bard is good throughout early levels and mid levels.
Not sure why you'd take Eldritch Blast if you're using Short Swords. I know it gives you a ranged option, but I'd point out having the ability to target a save, as opposed to AC, is probably better than an AC attack you will rarely use since you don't get the +CHA to damage.
@@miahmagick you take chill touch and EB because they are only cantrips not on the bard spell list aside from poison spray. EB does a rare damage type that is equal in damage die to a crossbow. If you later want to develop more into warlock maybe do or don't take this as a level one. Eldritch blast is one of the best cantrips even without going warlock though as it gives you multiple chances to crit since each blast calls for its own roll. It is overall a safer bet than most cantrips for that reason.
Unless you're playing with just the PHB, the statement they're the only non-shared spells is not true. In addition, just because they're not on the bard spell list doesn't mean they warrant a slot. A bard isn't going to get all their cantrips, and I'd much rather have Mage Hand, Mending, Message, etc than a cantrip I will never cast like Chill Touch. EB's damage is also not equal to a Light Crossbow early on because, even with the low-end assumption of 14 DEX, 1d10 =/= 1d8+2. There's a major difference between a minimum of 1 damage and a minimum of 3 (and often 4 in most builds I see). I can see the argument that once it becomes 2d10 and on that it becomes a different argument, but that goes for most damage cantrips. In addition, while its ability to crit' fish is an admitted advantage, its not exactly comparable to (save-targeting) spells that can't crit' in the first place, but instead don't suffer from advantage/disadvantage of any kind, and has no penalties in melee (which should be relevant to a melee Bard). Force damage is indeed a good damage type, but the number of encounters that's going to be relevant < the number of encounters being able to target a non-AC stat is relevant.
I'd look into Toll the Dead, for starters. It targets WIS, and does 1d12 to targets that aren't at full HP. The damage type is Necrotic, so not a bad damage type, and gives you both more damage and targeting diversity than either Chill Touch and EB.
Dustin Smith Why not just MC 1-2 levels of Hexblade? At level 14 Valor Bard you get Battle Magic and you can make more at-will attacks with full modifiers than a level 20 Fighter with Eldritch Blast+Weapon, buffed with Hex/Hexblade’s Curse (~50 dmg per round on average, ~80 dmg if you stack them). That’s serious fire power even late game, and you STILL get your level 9 spells.
Pink You are not factoring in the to-hit chance when comparing EB and Crossbow at early levels. An additional 5% chance to hit is roughly equal to the 1 dmg difference. Past level 5 it’s not comparable and EB all the way.
Also if you are going to use minimum damage as an argument in the case of Crossbows, then when compared to Toll the Dead EB is probably the better choice as well since EB spreads the damage out in multiple rolls and TTD does 0 dmg on a single save.
Ok so I watched the part where you say they’re great spellcasters, and then that the valor bard’s extra attack and war magic aren’t very useful. Do you ever then explain why you would ever pick valor over the other subclasses? That seems like a pretty major point to skip over before going deep into race choice, etc.
Judd W Rose I think his stance is just that the AC boost trumps all the subsequent class features.
M0ebius ok thanks. I feel like that needs to be more explicit. (And probably far more defended)
Judd W Rose There are multiple threads in part 2 discussing this very issue. Basically I think TM makes a strong case when comparing straight Valor/Lore, but not so much against multiclassed builds. The gist is that Armor+Shield is very very good (true), and Lore Bards with their 14 AC are very very bad at staying alive (also true).
@@M0ebius I just have a 13 wisdom and multi-class a level or two into cleric LOL. Hell if you do a Tempest or War Cleric you get more armor and weapon proficiencies than the Valor Bard
Stop Trolling it's Just an Opinion Depending on race and how greedy you want to get with optimization that 13 Wis is not always easy to swing though.
Where are parts two and three? Why split it into parts at all?
the last video got complaints it was too long. I have a pause button, so it wasn't for me, but you know how people are...
@@smbakeresq the more content the better! Splitting it up doesn't make it shorter, just more annoying to consume.
Fun Fact that most experienced people who play d&d don't know:
Bards
Even though half-elf is good, still sticking with my variant human :)
My basic problem with this whole thing is.
Trading two, entire, important, subclass features to have:
A slightly better than cantrip option.
That's it. A second attack, ehh. Depending on the weapon you use it will be better than a firebolt until someone gets 4d10+ features.
You also are provided no defensive reasons to justify being in melee at all.
Swords collage at least compensates you.
I do like the level 3 ability though.
I see you point and imho a Valor Bard can be improved with feats or multi. Heavy armor Bardladin, for instance. Or certain "skald" fighter/bard or bb/bard builds.
WOTC’s philosophy of refusing to correct underpowered subclasses is honestly horrible
You use two hands to play the "typical" horn.
One hand to hold it, one hand to change the pitch by covering the holes drilled into it.
E.g. Ram horn: ruclips.net/video/dBwd5iI0LcA/видео.html
You could play some small flutes with one hand.
I think it's common to play the Pan flute with both hands, but it should be playable with one hand, too.
Sorry for picking nits, but you like facts, right?
Thank you for your insight. I think Treantmonk got the horn you're talking about and the hunting/war horn mixed up. He mentioned Boromir, who wasn't exactly an orchestra player.
Half elf
In my opinion don’t even bother playing Valor Bards, or even Sword Bards, unless you also plan on taking 1 or more levels in Hexblade. The subclass is sold as a gish when really it’s a caster with weapon attacks that you will never ever want to use because your stats suck. Hexblade fixes that, and also give you access to Booming Blade/Greenflame Blade/Eldritch Blast to tie you over to Extra Attack.
You surely could make a straight valor bard before, but now that the hexxy exists... The whimsical me imagines that the designer of the hexblade only created level 1 and needed to be reminded that he had to design more than a one level dip.
Adventurers League limits you to just +1 source book, so hexblade and booming blade is a no-go. (I think that +1 book rule is actually a good one in general.) Anyway, I think if I could take Booming Blade, I honestly wouldn't bother with a valor bard and instead take spirit guardians as a magical secret.
Micah Iwaasa I think Hexblade is designed specifically to fix/boost these Charisma gish builds. Otherwise Extra Attack just end up being like the Cleric’s Divine Strike, a pointless class feature that you’d never use.
I just kind of wish they’d do the same for Wisdom/Intelligence gishes. Like a Battle Domain Cleric that lets you use Wisdom for weapon attack/dmg at level 1 and Shield as a domain spell. Or a Divine Templar Fighter that allows the same at level 3 and lets you use the weapon as a focus.
I think the appeal here is medium armor, shields and combat inspiration (allies can add bardic inspiration dice to their ac).
timeforsuchaword I get it but Combat Inspiration is basically only good for the AC boost once you are past the early levels. If you’re not beating down with your weapon then you might as well go Lore Bard because 9/10 times Cutting Words is equal or better at mitigating damage.
In fact I would go so far as to say that a Lore Bard Hexblade is better than a straight Valor Bard in the exact same roles.
That helps in the early levels, but later on when you're mostly casting spells with an action Eldritch Blast and weapon attacks will be much less of a boon.
Oh shit.
10:00
You come across as far less edgy in your videos compared to your written guides. As a brainlet this disappoints me because I need everything to be as edgy as possible.