Thanks for doing this video treantmonk. Our party consists of 2 wizards, a sorc, a rogue, a pally, and me the bard all lvl 2. After a few combats we're finding that the enemy keeps finding ways around our singular front liner to get into our juicy spell casting under belly. I am funny enough the second best front liner with more hp and AC than the rogue who is more of a hit and runner. We are not using the multi-class rule and I've already chose healer as my variant human feat to fill in the role of party healer so using this subclass when we hit lvl 3 I'll be able to boost up to at least 18 AC and impose myself between the enemy and the party to fill in as a makeshift frontliner. Using this guide has given me a solution to what I feel the party was lacking. I may not be the best frontliner but i can fit the role we lacked while still being an effective spell caster and at the very worst I can tank and use vicious mockery to impose disadvantage to stay alive until my party mops up, can reposition, etc. Thanks again.
How did I know this was literally just going to be "Just play a basic bard spellcaster, but you get more AC! Completely ignore all of your attacking features, and the theme of the subclass."
Fyn G. To be fair the way he’s building it is probably the most optimal way to play a single classed Valor Bard. If I HAD to play a single classed Valor for whatever reason I would probably do the same. To actually make an effective combat gish requires multiclassing.
@@M0ebius This is probably true. But no one is forced to play a Valor Bard. It's not necessarily a bad character (bards, at their core, are very good). I just think it's a bit disingenuous the way he's saying it might be one of the best bards... If you're trading ALL your subclasses' theme and abilities for 1 bonus feat (Medium Armor Proficiency), that just doesn't seem worth it.
Fyn G. It’s not disingenuous at all if you are comparing straight Lore/Valor Bard to Bard. In fact I think he makes a strong case, because Armor+Shield does change everything, and he has accepted that straight Valor Bards will never be good weapon users no matter what you do. The disconnect is that players who pick Valor in the first place tend to have picked it because they wanted to beatdown with weapons, and not being able to do so feels bad and make the bad design glaring. Which is why I honestly think Hexblade was designed precisely to plug these sort of design hole for gishes.
@@M0ebius That's exactly it. I feel like most people who want to play a Valor bard don't WANT to play "a caster but with good AC". If you were a new player and clicked this guide, you'd want to be told how to overcome the classes' shortcomings and be a good melee/ranged guy who casts spells like the subclass sells itself as, not be told "Your subclass is a lie, don't use its primary focus". It worked for Trickery Cleric because honestly, Divine Strike/Potent Cantrips is a small part of a class, definitely not the overall theme. Plus I just... disagree with his premise. It's 1 bonus feat. Your lore bard takes Medium Armor Proficiency at level 4, you have the same AC. You're 2 CHA behind but... not forever, and statistically 1 point of DC only really impacts 1 out of 20 rolls. Eventually you catch up in CHA and then it's just a single bonus feat difference. Is that worth a whole subclass? Ehhh... Everyone is entitled to their own opinion if it's worth it or not. To me, it isn't.
Fyn G. Yes, if all I want is an armored caster I’d just dip for Fighter 1 or Hexblade 1. Both are arguably better than a straight Valor Bard despite a 1 level delay in spell progression in my opinion. If multiclassing is available, the only reason I’d ever play Valor/Sword Bard is to build the sickest gish I can and dominate combat. I’m talking Fighter+Hexblade into 10 levels of Bard for Holy Weapon into Paladin for full spell slot smites type of build. Or something like Valor 14/Hexblade 2 for Battle Magic and Hex+Eldritch Blast+Weapon type stuff.
With any bard I would multiclass 2 with warlock hexblade for the medium armor and shield, armor of Agathys shield spell and hex and also eldrtich blast with agonizing blast and repelling blast
Bardic Inspiration lasts for 10 minutes without concentration and you can have it on any number of creatures at once. If you're expecting a fight, you can pass it out like candy before you go in and free up those bonus actions.
Jacob Day Yeah but late game you’d generally prefer to use it to buff saves than to boost AC against a single attack (and almost never use it to buff damage), making Combat Inspiration much less useful.
@@M0ebius It's general advice for bards (although it's most relevant to Valor as they don't have secondary uses for inspiration like all the other subclasses). I think combat inspiration compares pretty favorably to cutting words in combat (if you have the opportunity to juice everyone up beforehand)
Jacob Day I think being able to pre-buff is a big assumption, and even then Combat Inspiration is not clearly better. +AC is the same as roll deduction, and while pre-buffing saves the Bard’s reaction, Cutting Words can put the dice exactly where it’s needed, when it’s needed, for whomever needs it even the Bard himself. And that’s just comparing one ability. The +damage for Valor is almost never worth it except maybe on a crit once in a blue moon, whereas Cutting Words’ check deduction or AOE damage reduction can dramatically effect the combat with just a reaction. No, I think Cutting Words is much better in almost every situation.
@@M0ebius I forgot that cutting words can be applied to AoE's, which is indeed pretty good. The check reduction ability is less likely to come up in combat (although I can see it being a clutch move against a counterspell, dispel magic or maybe a grapple escape attempt against the right opponent).
Jacob Day Exactly - counter, dispel, grapple, shove prone, and more niche cases like against a Paladin’s Wrathful Smite. But it’s also extremely useful in social situations, whereas Combat Inspiration is not... at all.
A few notes: if you play at a table where alignment matters (I do) then you need to be careful with Hypnotic Pattern as killing helpless creatures is probably an evil act. In the right campaign Awaken has a lot of use. With your high charisma you are all but guaranteed to have a friendly creature so you can build quite a network of useful allies. For animate objects you can just use silver coins. They are hidden in open weapons for you. We got a lot of use from Legend Lore. At the level you get it most things you are searching for are legendary. It’s also has the advantage of making sure your DM puts you on right path.
I think you might be slightly undervaluing the magical secrets at level 6 from lore bard. In particular taking counterspell + perhaps find familiar, is massive. Pass without trace is another amazing choice. I do see where you're coming from W/R/T the additional armor class making valor bard very handy as a combat caster. If you roll stats, the issue of having a low charisma and being forced to pick charisma for your first 2 ASI's is *often* mitigated, assuming your rolling skills are up to par. Counterspell ALONE makes me prefer the lore bard (as a caster), not that the valor bard cannot take it, but taking it at 6 vice 10 is a massive difference. Absolutely love these videos, please dont stop making them =D
I have seen some problems with counterspell. it has a complete failure chance if you don't know the spell being cast (or if the DM is particularly evil a chance of being baited by a low level spell or cantrip), if a lore bard uses counterspell it eats up the reaction that typically is used for their class ability "cutting words", every spellslot you counterspell with is a spellslot you are not casting hypnotic pattern with (which also has more range than counterspell for anti counterspell strategies), and If there are no spell casters it is the worst investment ever of all time.
@@cuspiscentium If your party doesn't have counterspell, then the opposing mages can just cast whatever they want freely. Forcing the DM to play around the availability of your counterspells is alone powerful. It's also rather high tempo in that you can still cast your spells during your turn, then use your reaction to counterspell the opponents on their turn swinging the battle even further in your favor. The bit about it conflicting with cutting words is true, but you can still use your inspirations for actual inspiration as well. Also, bards in general are some of the best counterspellers in the game with "jack of all trades", Not terribly relevant at level 6, but once you're getting a flat +2 or 3 to all your counterspell rolls your chance of outright failing is now 10-15% lower than most other classes casting the spell. A 17th level bard with 20-22 charisma has a 45-50% chance of blanking the BBEGs level 9 spell with a reaction and a 3rd level slot. Add peerless skill if you're a lore bard(14th level ability) to add your inspiration to the roll and your chances of failure are now incredibly low. Its frankly one of those abilities I never want to be without in a party, if you're running in a party with a wizard and a sorcerer it becomes much less imperative that you take it as one of your magical secrets. If your DM just never throws spellcasters at you...yeah, it's worthless, but c'mon, I've never played a game where you don't eventually face very dangerous spell casters.
Brooksington I prefer Lore over Valor as a pure caster as well, though typically I throw in 1-2 levels of Hexblade for Hex/Shield/Booming Blade/Eldritch Blast. I used to like Counterspell at 6, but now I prefer taking it at 10, and take the Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians combo instead. The main reason being that lvl 3 slots typically eats up my concentration (or alternatively lvl 1 Hex), and Spiritual Weapon is a more efficient use of the lvl 2 slots in combat. With Spiritual Guardian/Spiritual Weapon up and spamming EB/BB with your action it’s a significant amount of damage backed up by the Shield spell and Cutting Words for defense.
If you really need counterspell, you can pick it up at level 10. Lore just gets a chance to snag it 4 levels earlier. Plus, if you don't fight very many mages, it isn't as useful, so it wouldn't necessarily be included in a general guide.
Hypnotic pattern with an instrument of the bard is ridiculous. All targets get disadvantage in their saves. People complain that the instruments only affect animal friendship and hypnotic pattern this way, but this combo is amazing. Not to mention, they're as low as an uncommon magic item that gives you a minimum 7 spell slots per dawn (wether or not you get a long rest), which all include Fly, Invisibility, Prot Good/Evil and Levitate, plus whatever that particular instrument adds. All this, and imposes disadvantage on the save vs Hypnotic Pattern! For a potentially Uncommon magic item!? Bards get sole access to some of the cheapest, most powerful magic items, and people complain they aren't good enough!? "They only make hypnotic pattern more amazing, why don't they affect more spells?" "It's an underpowered class item." I have seen this complaint so many times! It makes me want to shake people!
Sorry, I just found that they've added errata for the instruments. So now they give disadvantage on even more spells. My gods, these things are insane! And still uncommon!
Fun addition to my post on the last video. Take one level sorcerer at level one, and you can make a melee bard that can do HWM with a glaive. Talk to your dm about gauntlets of ogre strength, which is only uncommon, and you’ve got yourself a strong frontliner that can wreck people with spell & sword
I was thinking this would go to a different direction. Specifically that we would rely more on longbow attacks for 'at will' damage that the bard is lacking (not always of course, just when vicious mockery doesn't seem like the best idea, either due to the enemies having multiattack, or good wis saves, etc) or to make use of the better range and thus to protect somewhat better our HP and concentration. It's a real shame that equipping and unequipping a shield takes an action though, cause if it didn't, that would mean that we would be able to change from longbow to shield + free hand mid fight, depending on if we would like to rely on longbow or vicious mockery and we didn't know that ahead of time because we didn't know what we would be fighting next. That would allow us to make full use of the valor bard's proficiencies. I guess that history of encounters plays a part in that, meaning that if you find yourself being attacked frequently during encounters either because long ranged enemies are a common thing or because your party (you included) cannot control the battlefield adequately and the fast enemies can catch up with your regardless of longbow's range, then I would go with shield and a free hand. And vice versa. Though unless most encounters start with the party being surrounded, I would guess that missing a shield and having the option to switch from VM to longbow as needed would be better (and after dimension door, even if we start surrounded by enemies it doesn't matter much, only enemies with good long ranged attacks would be a real threat to our concentration then). So yeah, in my mind, the valor bard trades additional magical secrets (I don't think shield is a good one, due to low base AC; I would be surprised to see if guides highly recommend it), which the way I think of it would be sth like counterspell and fireball (I understand that damage AoE is not scaling well, but one damage AoE is better than none; meaning it's very valuable to go from 0 to 1 options in separate combat strategical options, in this case blasting), for an alternative to VM in longbow attacks (which is equivalent to a decent attack cantrip). And I think there is value in that, ie in having a good backup/alternative to vicious mockery in using a longbow, because once you cast your big spell, there are not a ton of great non-concentration spells to keep your actions busy with (this is one of the reasons why I started valuing eyebite as a spell, especially for lore bards that don't have the option to use longbow + extra attack). While in the meantime the longbow allows to stay even further from the fuzz. Sorry for rambling. As always, great and very enjoyable video!
IMO the one thing that the Lore Bard still has over Valor as a caster is Counterspell from level 6. It may be down to a table to table cultural difference, but as an arcane caster I find it's somewhat expected of you to take care of that department. Especially in smaller groups: it's a pain getting AoEd/Save-or-Suck'd as a martial while flanking along with the rogue, for example. Maybe it's because of this problem that I still have difficulties considering Valor a good archetype for a primary spellcaster/sole spellcaster. Although you've made my mind about them being good fullcasters.
Given that any bard can pick up counterspell at level 10 if they need, magical secrets is pretty circumstantial. If you are running into a lot of casters during tier 2, then in may be worth it, but if you know from the outset of the campaign that it will be enemy caster heavy, bring an abjurer.
Good guide, but you should have mentioned that buying a longbow might be really worthwile at 6th level. Just because you *can* be in melee doesn't mean you *have* to (at least not all the time). With 16 DEX and extra attack, a longbow will do decent damage at a very long range and allow you pick important targets and/or focus fire more effectively without risking losing your concentration in melee.
I never considered valor as a spellcaster - the better AC and inspiration is a tempting consideration! But I would truly miss, if I'm building a caster bard, the Lore Bard's early spell stealing. If I need between fight heals, healing spirit or the Pal lvl 3 equivalent is good (HS got errata'd and is no longer insanely good). If I want to sometimes nuke, fireball is not horrible. If no one can rez, the lvl 3 rez spell is good. If the DM lets you pick what arrives, conjure animals can be amazing. There are many other great spells to consider. If we can't multiclass, the lack of AC will really hurt the Lore Bard, however. But a 1-dip in hexblade (or other classes) fixes this without seriously gimping the character. We'll be 1 level behind in our bard progression, but that's not all that bad. And what we get is AC 19, Shield spell, Armor of Agathys, and Eldritch Blast (if we want a ranged cantrip nuke). Shield and Armor of Agathys (castable by any bard slot) = amazing. Lets think about level 10. If I'm Valor and no one in the party can rez, I'm going to be under a lot of pressure to steal Raise Dead. But I also want Wall of Force and probably Circle of Power (which is broken at tier 2, as Pals don't get it til they are much higher level). And as a Valor I can't take Raise Dead, Wall of Force and Circle of Power at level 10. But as a Lore Bard I can have Revivify, Wall of Force and Circle of Power - which is quite strong. Of course this decision gets very complex - say there is a Pal in the party - with his aura do I really need Circle of Power? Maybe not, though it's still better than the Pal's aura - its radius is bigger and so on. If we're fighting a powerful caster, Circle of Power is stupid-nice. If we never fight casters, it's useless. And if there's a pal in the party, he can now take Revivify - but would he ever cast it? Maybe he only ever smites and never casts. So again, not an easy decision to make. I will admit I'm surprised that Valor works as well as you say as a pure caster, and this video is very much worth considering - so thank you very much! But I'd be very torn and would have to also strongly consider a Lore Bard 19/Hexblade 1 or a Lore Bard 18/Hexblade 2 (if I wanted 2 invocations).
I'm so glad you keep emphasizing the potency of being a caster over melee. I see so many people taking perfectly good casters and building them into meleers. Bards, Clerics, even Bladesingers and Hexblades, can accomplish so much more as casters. Who cares about martial weapon proficiencies if you can win a fight with a single cast?
Christian Swensen Yeah except classes like Bladesingers and Valor Bards are kind of a bait and switch. You sell the players on a weapon toting gish, but it turns out you’re not actually any good at fighting and is better off just staying in the back casting spells like every other full caster. So then what’s the point? Just be a full caster. That’s why I always recommend players who actually want to fight to just take a Hexblade dip, and the ones who just want to cast in armor/shield to start Fighter 1 to also get the CONsave proficiency.
@@M0ebius I wouldn't call it a bait and switch. I'd call it poor decision making. I'm crystal clear on the fact that when I play a wiz, cleric, bard, sorcerer, etc, that I'm playing a caster. Further, I wouldn't want to give up the casting for melee. Poor trade, in my opinion. I'd even say that Hexblade is better off as a caster than a meleer. Yes, WLs don't get the same types of slots as other casters. But there are other factors in play, and they're still better as casters than swinging a stick.
Christian Swensen With a well built Gish you’re not giving up casting for melee at all. You are good at both (at the cost of a delayed spell progression) and you either pick the tool appropriate for the job or have one complement the other, filling whatever role the party needs at the moment. A Lore Bard Hexblade for instance can have both Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon up while smashing away with his weapon, and still have Armor/Shield/Shield spell/Cutting Words to backup his defense. Or Dissonant Whispers into Booming Blade with full modifier damage. A Sword Bard Hexblade can output more melee damage than a Paladin at level 11 by taking Holy Weapon with his Magical Secrets while laying down the Blade Flourishes. So on and so forth. If anything I would say that a proper charisma Gish is so well rounded and versatile that it almost makes pure martial classes unnecessary.
1- slowing spell progression is a HUGE cost. Getting the spell you need a week after you need it has zero value. 2- let's assume you have something like a Bladesinger or Swords Bard that has full spell progression. Every round you spend swinging a weapon, instead of casting, is (usually) non-optimal. It's not that I don't think a caster should be able to melee. That's largely irrelevant. The point is that a GWM Sorcadin who is bragging about his smites, has missed many opportunities to be of greater benefit to his group by controlling, buffing or debuffing. Even when it does come to damage, spells are often more effective. I mean, a successful save still takes half damage... So the Sorcadin doing 60+ dmg to a single target is a net loss when he could have done 24+ dmg to several targets simultaneously. There are several martial classes, who mix magic already. This is not to disparage them. It is simply acknowledging that for most classes, in most cases, casting is more powerful than melee. Even when you're great at both, casting is better.
I don't think hexblades or warlocks for that matter make for good primary spellcasting damage dealers. I think warlocks are far stronger if they are treated more like a fighter w tricks or a rogue with tricks. At least in my campaign experience they always starving for spell slots. Lean on the invocations and supplement w spells
Teleportation circle is useless on the campaign I play in. My cleric used all of her gold to cast revivify once. At level 13. Our DM gives us no money.
So animate objects is only a bonus action on one turn. As long as they still can follow that action, you don't have to use subsequent ones to keep it going.
I was curious about your insights on bards and their spells. At level 4 you took the CHA ASI over a feat saying that you generally prefer that. In your more recent builds, you generally seem to prefer to feat up concentration saves over the ASIs, with occasional characters not increasing their main attribute until 12. What led to your change in perspective?
Thank you! This was a good set of videos and even though I tend to value the lore bard abilities more than AC, I do think the valor bard is a great bard. Your note of how bad their attacks are is definitely agreed. Poor PHB gishes. Thank you again!
PS I know you're busy and have plenty of videos planned, but one I suggest a bit back that you may find fun if you get a chance is a "God Wizard" Warlock. How effective could it be? It's also not a video your channel has on it (only Warlock is the Hexblade Bow and the Sorlock) and the non Hexblade doesn't get a lot of love these days.
In this series and the Trickster cleric you mention using a crossbow on standby when you have no other options for your turn, but have you considered the humble sling? It does on average 1 less hp per hit, but is one-handed, so you can use it without dropping your shield. Also, if you happen to be rolling for gold during character creation, or have a miserly DM, you save tons of money both up front and on ammo, and it takes a lot of weight off your loadout, which is good for a low-strength character. Also is quite inconspicuous and easy to hide if you're trying to keep a low profile. For the mere cost of 1hp/use, it's just so many upsides.
Grr, dang errata. I searched my PHB all over to check if that was the case and it looked like it wasn't. Guess they felt like sling was too strong and needed a nerf.
@@sharkforce8147 It's even worse than that. They wanted to shut down people who were interpreting the Crossbow Expert to mean that they needed two Hand Crossbows in order to get the bonus action attack. Because using two hand crossbows put too much strain on the imagination of some people in a game where you are playing as an elf fighting a dragon. The worst part about it was they went out of their way to clarify that you could simply use one hand crossbow and get the bonus action attack. It didn't even change the DPR at all! WotC actually just went out of there way to shut down some people who were having badwrongfun.
Could you do a creation bard guide? I really like it but I need some RAW song of creation tactics. I haven't seen anyone do one yet. I've been making closet-sized, 5x5 cages that block sight. BA telekentic feat shove a medium or smaller creatures in, then use a free object interaction to shut the door. We've been doing a contested strength check to get out but if the creature's still inside on my turn I throw a lock on the cage. Someone else from Colby's D4 comments said dancing object + conjure shadow spawn (despair) means a -30 movement speed, so any creature with only 55 movement speed or less couldn't stand up if knocked prone. That was a cool idea. I don't know if my cage strategy is RAW but the creatures have been getting bigger. Plus I got trapped inside the closet/cage myself once lol. I'd like to hear your ideal creation bard.
At about 16 mins in, you talk about using a component pouch over an instrument focus. I'm pretty new to spellcasting classes so I was wondering why this was because I thought arcane focuses and component pouch were pretty much interchangeable.
So far this guide is basically telling me to play as a regular bard but with armor and shield proficiencies. Might as well start as a fighter or something.
I think you're missing the point I'm making in the video. The power of the Bard is their spells. You can either gimp their spellcasting for defense, or just get the defense without gimping their spellcasting by gaining Armor and Shield proficiencies as a subclass ability. I am so confused with the responses that say, "Sounds like based on what you're saying, I'm just as well to piss on my spellcasting ability to get armor and shield another way, then I can be another kind of bard..." Somewhere there's a disconnect or I explained the value of Bard spellcasting compared to subclass abilities poorly.
I think the argument that the power of the Bard is their spells is undermined by your selection of duds like Comprehend Languages and Friends. If you want to show how a Bard can provide value for a party, perhaps highlighting spells like Tasha’s or Dissonant Whispers would be prudent.
Hey Treantmonk, love your videos and your guides. Just a short question. What are you doing with your action after casting a concentration spell like hypnotic pattern?
Firstly, you can always pack some non concentration spells like Blindness/Deafness. But mostly, that's where the Valour Bard's weapon proficiency come into play. After you drop an H.Pattern, pull out your rapier (or preferably longbow) and start attacking some people.
Fantastic video, just one question. Don't I need the Warcaster feat in order to make this work? If my instrument focus is in one hand and my shield is in my other hand, I'll need Warcaster to cast anything with a Somatic component, right?
Yeah I understand that a shield is good but after two videos all you've convinced me is that using a shield is smart. To me the Valor bard still falls short if it's design purpose. It is going to be undervalued for that alone. Still more AC is nice but I think getting to take full advantage of your subclass is more satisfying.
Ebonzai Agreed. If you just want the armor/shield then go Lore Bard and start Fighter 1 - you’d also get CONsave proficiency and Defense Fighting Style. If you actually want to fight like the subclass promises, then you basically have to dip a level or two in Hexblade. I myself take both, because when I gish I want to actually swing my weapon around.
I would go with breastplate and shield. Half plate gives disadvantage to dex saves! +1 to ac isn't worth that. Trade up to half plate after you take the feat.
I'm so confused here - we talk about valor bard being one of the best subclasses but literally I'm seeing we are using our subclass choice and features on what you could basically accomplish with the moderately armored feat since the rapier is not used by Billy. Might as well pick one of the other colleges (valor or glamour) and just get moderately armored and you have essentially all their goodies plus all the goodies treantmonk is advocating. You had me convinced with the trickery cleric - this one I'm not so sure.
@@TreantmonksTemple seems to me either one would be good - if we use the guide here (and I agree whole heatedly with your race analysis for bards) let's say we use the same half from and use our first ASI for moderately armored. Yes, you are 1 Cha modifier behind Billy, but in exchange for that you now have let's say Lore bards cutting words and the future magical secrets. If we use this guide as the template, we give up 2 Cha in exchange for lvl 3 and 6 subclass features that we will actually use and not just say eh, rapier is not that efficient compared to our options.
@@elpablodiabloepd So what I'm hearing is that we will trade Combat Inspiration for Cutting words (a decent trade, but not a huge deal). Then we will trade +1 Cha bonus, which means -1 to spell DC's for the ability to add 2 spells known to our list. Considering casting spells is our primary role, making that worse seems like a very steep price. You do get one more subclass ability at level 14 (if you get that far), but it's not a good ability. It allows one of the 3 uses of Inspiration (the least useful one) to be used as a self-buff. That's OK, but not a big deal. Now I guess at level 12 the Cha catches up, but you will always be a feat behind and will never catch that up. I will concede that taking that route isn't bad, but I'm not seeing it as superior. Am I missing something?
@@TreantmonksTemple I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. I personally see having additional features that I will use and greater versatility in spell choice to be worth the difference of 1 point in spell DC. Especially when we consider access strong spell choices to fill out that gap of non conc non bonus action spells, which eases the burden on our bonus action economy
Treantmonk's Temple The disconnect is that people who pick Valor in the first place are people who want to both cast spells and fight with weapons. It’s what the subclass is sold as after all. But the only thing your video really shows so far is that Armor+Shield is very good on a caster, good enough in fact to just totally ignore the lvl 6 class feature which is sub-optimal, when alternatively the general consensus is that Lore Bard has both a superior level 3 subclass feature and arguably the best level 6 subclass feature, but just missing that Armor/Shield.
Honest question, are these guides built without using optional multicast rules? As you would get a lot of the same results from starting as a fighter and then going lore bard for its extra abilities. You would be behind the curve but only by 1 level (maybe more if you want some of that sweet action surge action at any point). I do always feel the 1 or 2 level dip can be a bit cheesy though.
Killian Duggan Hexblade dip is where it’s at if you actually want to mix it up in combat. But yes you are absolutely correct, Lore Fighter in my opinion is stronger than straight Valor.
Billy, don't be a hero! Oh, wait. Maybe. Hmmn...this Billy might be a hero. But he should stay back. Yes, don't be a hero ruclips.net/video/6cdFuMgMkBM/видео.html
It seems like the only thing that makes Valor good is the AC thus far, and the Extra Attack is only ever so slightly better than the Cleric’s Divine Strike. Might be better off just taking Lore Bard with level 1 as Fighter for Armor, Shield, Defense Fighting Style, and CONsave proficiency. Or take Hexblade so you can actually hit stuff.
Which do you think makes the better caster, a fighter 1/lore bard X or a Valor Bard X+1? If you think the former, I would be interested in why you think so?
Treantmonk's Temple It depends on the context. At level 1-2? Lore Bard Fighter - one less spell slot for much better combat capabilities. At level 5? Valor Bard - lvl 3 spells are just so much stronger. At level 6? Tie, but I prefer Cutting Word with Font of Inspiration. At level 7? Lore Bard Fighter, because the best level 3 spells are equal to or stronger than most level 4 spells. At level 20? Lore Bard Fighter - same slots, better AC, more spells, better Initiative/Counterspells, and more versatile use of Bardic Inspiration. We can break it down for all the levels but in short, I think Lore Bard Fighter has the edge between class features, CONsave proficiency, and a slight edge in AC. Bard capstone is utter garbage.
Treantmonk's Temple Overall I’d take the Lore Bard Fighter, but I’d prefer Lore Hexblade even more if only for Hex, Shield, Booming Blade, and Eldritch Blast. Incidentally Hex Warrior+Booming Blade/GFB+Shield spell probably makes Lore Hexblade a strictly superior Valor Bard if the intention is to mix it up in melee at all.
@@M0ebius "At level 7? Lore Bard Fighter, because the best level 3 spells are equal to or stronger than most level 4 spells" We will have to agree to disagree I think.
Treantmonk's Temple My case would be that at level 7, a Lore Bard Fighter with Counterspell/Spirit Guardians is equal to if not better than the single casting of Polymorph the Valor Bard can manage. Especially when factoring how efficient the level 3 slot becomes with the Lore Bard Fighter: Best range option in Hypnotic Pattern, best melee option in Spirit Guardians, best (2nd best?) Counterspeller in the game with Jack of All Trades/Peerless Skill, and the best ritual in the game in Tiny Hut. You have excellent options for most combat situations and the proficiency bonuses (both CONsave concentration & spellcasting ability) to back it up. In this case I think versatility trumps power, especially when that power is once a day.
Thanks for doing this video treantmonk. Our party consists of 2 wizards, a sorc, a rogue, a pally, and me the bard all lvl 2. After a few combats we're finding that the enemy keeps finding ways around our singular front liner to get into our juicy spell casting under belly. I am funny enough the second best front liner with more hp and AC than the rogue who is more of a hit and runner. We are not using the multi-class rule and I've already chose healer as my variant human feat to fill in the role of party healer so using this subclass when we hit lvl 3 I'll be able to boost up to at least 18 AC and impose myself between the enemy and the party to fill in as a makeshift frontliner. Using this guide has given me a solution to what I feel the party was lacking. I may not be the best frontliner but i can fit the role we lacked while still being an effective spell caster and at the very worst I can tank and use vicious mockery to impose disadvantage to stay alive until my party mops up, can reposition, etc. Thanks again.
I've never been one for Bards, mainly because of the spell list, but you're starting to convince me to re-evaluate that
How did I know this was literally just going to be "Just play a basic bard spellcaster, but you get more AC! Completely ignore all of your attacking features, and the theme of the subclass."
Fyn G. To be fair the way he’s building it is probably the most optimal way to play a single classed Valor Bard. If I HAD to play a single classed Valor for whatever reason I would probably do the same. To actually make an effective combat gish requires multiclassing.
@@M0ebius This is probably true. But no one is forced to play a Valor Bard. It's not necessarily a bad character (bards, at their core, are very good). I just think it's a bit disingenuous the way he's saying it might be one of the best bards... If you're trading ALL your subclasses' theme and abilities for 1 bonus feat (Medium Armor Proficiency), that just doesn't seem worth it.
Fyn G. It’s not disingenuous at all if you are comparing straight Lore/Valor Bard to Bard. In fact I think he makes a strong case, because Armor+Shield does change everything, and he has accepted that straight Valor Bards will never be good weapon users no matter what you do.
The disconnect is that players who pick Valor in the first place tend to have picked it because they wanted to beatdown with weapons, and not being able to do so feels bad and make the bad design glaring. Which is why I honestly think Hexblade was designed precisely to plug these sort of design hole for gishes.
@@M0ebius That's exactly it. I feel like most people who want to play a Valor bard don't WANT to play "a caster but with good AC". If you were a new player and clicked this guide, you'd want to be told how to overcome the classes' shortcomings and be a good melee/ranged guy who casts spells like the subclass sells itself as, not be told "Your subclass is a lie, don't use its primary focus". It worked for Trickery Cleric because honestly, Divine Strike/Potent Cantrips is a small part of a class, definitely not the overall theme.
Plus I just... disagree with his premise. It's 1 bonus feat. Your lore bard takes Medium Armor Proficiency at level 4, you have the same AC. You're 2 CHA behind but... not forever, and statistically 1 point of DC only really impacts 1 out of 20 rolls. Eventually you catch up in CHA and then it's just a single bonus feat difference. Is that worth a whole subclass? Ehhh... Everyone is entitled to their own opinion if it's worth it or not. To me, it isn't.
Fyn G. Yes, if all I want is an armored caster I’d just dip for Fighter 1 or Hexblade 1. Both are arguably better than a straight Valor Bard despite a 1 level delay in spell progression in my opinion.
If multiclassing is available, the only reason I’d ever play Valor/Sword Bard is to build the sickest gish I can and dominate combat. I’m talking Fighter+Hexblade into 10 levels of Bard for Holy Weapon into Paladin for full spell slot smites type of build. Or something like Valor 14/Hexblade 2 for Battle Magic and Hex+Eldritch Blast+Weapon type stuff.
With any bard I would multiclass 2 with warlock hexblade for the medium armor and shield, armor of Agathys shield spell and hex and also eldrtich blast with agonizing blast and repelling blast
Bardic Inspiration lasts for 10 minutes without concentration and you can have it on any number of creatures at once. If you're expecting a fight, you can pass it out like candy before you go in and free up those bonus actions.
Jacob Day Yeah but late game you’d generally prefer to use it to buff saves than to boost AC against a single attack (and almost never use it to buff damage), making Combat Inspiration much less useful.
@@M0ebius It's general advice for bards (although it's most relevant to Valor as they don't have secondary uses for inspiration like all the other subclasses). I think combat inspiration compares pretty favorably to cutting words in combat (if you have the opportunity to juice everyone up beforehand)
Jacob Day I think being able to pre-buff is a big assumption, and even then Combat Inspiration is not clearly better. +AC is the same as roll deduction, and while pre-buffing saves the Bard’s reaction, Cutting Words can put the dice exactly where it’s needed, when it’s needed, for whomever needs it even the Bard himself. And that’s just comparing one ability.
The +damage for Valor is almost never worth it except maybe on a crit once in a blue moon, whereas Cutting Words’ check deduction or AOE damage reduction can dramatically effect the combat with just a reaction.
No, I think Cutting Words is much better in almost every situation.
@@M0ebius I forgot that cutting words can be applied to AoE's, which is indeed pretty good. The check reduction ability is less likely to come up in combat (although I can see it being a clutch move against a counterspell, dispel magic or maybe a grapple escape attempt against the right opponent).
Jacob Day Exactly - counter, dispel, grapple, shove prone, and more niche cases like against a Paladin’s Wrathful Smite. But it’s also extremely useful in social situations, whereas Combat Inspiration is not... at all.
A few notes: if you play at a table where alignment matters (I do) then you need to be careful with Hypnotic Pattern as killing helpless creatures is probably an evil act.
In the right campaign Awaken has a lot of use. With your high charisma you are all but guaranteed to have a friendly creature so you can build quite a network of useful allies.
For animate objects you can just use silver coins. They are hidden in open weapons for you.
We got a lot of use from Legend Lore. At the level you get it most things you are searching for are legendary. It’s also has the advantage of making sure your DM puts you on right path.
smbakeresq Except that Hypnotic Pattern doesn’t kill people.
I think you might be slightly undervaluing the magical secrets at level 6 from lore bard. In particular taking counterspell + perhaps find familiar, is massive. Pass without trace is another amazing choice. I do see where you're coming from W/R/T the additional armor class making valor bard very handy as a combat caster. If you roll stats, the issue of having a low charisma and being forced to pick charisma for your first 2 ASI's is *often* mitigated, assuming your rolling skills are up to par. Counterspell ALONE makes me prefer the lore bard (as a caster), not that the valor bard cannot take it, but taking it at 6 vice 10 is a massive difference.
Absolutely love these videos, please dont stop making them =D
I have seen some problems with counterspell. it has a complete failure chance if you don't know the spell being cast (or if the DM is particularly evil a chance of being baited by a low level spell or cantrip), if a lore bard uses counterspell it eats up the reaction that typically is used for their class ability "cutting words", every spellslot you counterspell with is a spellslot you are not casting hypnotic pattern with (which also has more range than counterspell for anti counterspell strategies), and If there are no spell casters it is the worst investment ever of all time.
@@cuspiscentium If your party doesn't have counterspell, then the opposing mages can just cast whatever they want freely. Forcing the DM to play around the availability of your counterspells is alone powerful. It's also rather high tempo in that you can still cast your spells during your turn, then use your reaction to counterspell the opponents on their turn swinging the battle even further in your favor. The bit about it conflicting with cutting words is true, but you can still use your inspirations for actual inspiration as well. Also, bards in general are some of the best counterspellers in the game with "jack of all trades", Not terribly relevant at level 6, but once you're getting a flat +2 or 3 to all your counterspell rolls your chance of outright failing is now 10-15% lower than most other classes casting the spell. A 17th level bard with 20-22 charisma has a 45-50% chance of blanking the BBEGs level 9 spell with a reaction and a 3rd level slot. Add peerless skill if you're a lore bard(14th level ability) to add your inspiration to the roll and your chances of failure are now incredibly low.
Its frankly one of those abilities I never want to be without in a party, if you're running in a party with a wizard and a sorcerer it becomes much less imperative that you take it as one of your magical secrets. If your DM just never throws spellcasters at you...yeah, it's worthless, but c'mon, I've never played a game where you don't eventually face very dangerous spell casters.
Brooksington I prefer Lore over Valor as a pure caster as well, though typically I throw in 1-2 levels of Hexblade for Hex/Shield/Booming Blade/Eldritch Blast. I used to like Counterspell at 6, but now I prefer taking it at 10, and take the Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians combo instead. The main reason being that lvl 3 slots typically eats up my concentration (or alternatively lvl 1 Hex), and Spiritual Weapon is a more efficient use of the lvl 2 slots in combat. With Spiritual Guardian/Spiritual Weapon up and spamming EB/BB with your action it’s a significant amount of damage backed up by the Shield spell and Cutting Words for defense.
If you really need counterspell, you can pick it up at level 10. Lore just gets a chance to snag it 4 levels earlier. Plus, if you don't fight very many mages, it isn't as useful, so it wouldn't necessarily be included in a general guide.
I like counterspell too, however, I'm not losing out on counterspell, I'm merely delaying it a few levels...
Hypnotic pattern with an instrument of the bard is ridiculous. All targets get disadvantage in their saves. People complain that the instruments only affect animal friendship and hypnotic pattern this way, but this combo is amazing. Not to mention, they're as low as an uncommon magic item that gives you a minimum 7 spell slots per dawn (wether or not you get a long rest), which all include Fly, Invisibility, Prot Good/Evil and Levitate, plus whatever that particular instrument adds. All this, and imposes disadvantage on the save vs Hypnotic Pattern! For a potentially Uncommon magic item!? Bards get sole access to some of the cheapest, most powerful magic items, and people complain they aren't good enough!? "They only make hypnotic pattern more amazing, why don't they affect more spells?" "It's an underpowered class item." I have seen this complaint so many times! It makes me want to shake people!
Sorry, I just found that they've added errata for the instruments. So now they give disadvantage on even more spells. My gods, these things are insane! And still uncommon!
I've always enjoyed your guides from back in the day. So happy to see you still at it! Keep up the great work, love the video.
Not only do I love your content, I love how fast you put out content!
Fun addition to my post on the last video. Take one level sorcerer at level one, and you can make a melee bard that can do HWM with a glaive. Talk to your dm about gauntlets of ogre strength, which is only uncommon, and you’ve got yourself a strong frontliner that can wreck people with spell & sword
I was thinking this would go to a different direction. Specifically that we would rely more on longbow attacks for 'at will' damage that the bard is lacking (not always of course, just when vicious mockery doesn't seem like the best idea, either due to the enemies having multiattack, or good wis saves, etc) or to make use of the better range and thus to protect somewhat better our HP and concentration. It's a real shame that equipping and unequipping a shield takes an action though, cause if it didn't, that would mean that we would be able to change from longbow to shield + free hand mid fight, depending on if we would like to rely on longbow or vicious mockery and we didn't know that ahead of time because we didn't know what we would be fighting next. That would allow us to make full use of the valor bard's proficiencies. I guess that history of encounters plays a part in that, meaning that if you find yourself being attacked frequently during encounters either because long ranged enemies are a common thing or because your party (you included) cannot control the battlefield adequately and the fast enemies can catch up with your regardless of longbow's range, then I would go with shield and a free hand. And vice versa. Though unless most encounters start with the party being surrounded, I would guess that missing a shield and having the option to switch from VM to longbow as needed would be better (and after dimension door, even if we start surrounded by enemies it doesn't matter much, only enemies with good long ranged attacks would be a real threat to our concentration then). So yeah, in my mind, the valor bard trades additional magical secrets (I don't think shield is a good one, due to low base AC; I would be surprised to see if guides highly recommend it), which the way I think of it would be sth like counterspell and fireball (I understand that damage AoE is not scaling well, but one damage AoE is better than none; meaning it's very valuable to go from 0 to 1 options in separate combat strategical options, in this case blasting), for an alternative to VM in longbow attacks (which is equivalent to a decent attack cantrip). And I think there is value in that, ie in having a good backup/alternative to vicious mockery in using a longbow, because once you cast your big spell, there are not a ton of great non-concentration spells to keep your actions busy with (this is one of the reasons why I started valuing eyebite as a spell, especially for lore bards that don't have the option to use longbow + extra attack). While in the meantime the longbow allows to stay even further from the fuzz. Sorry for rambling. As always, great and very enjoyable video!
IMO the one thing that the Lore Bard still has over Valor as a caster is Counterspell from level 6. It may be down to a table to table cultural difference, but as an arcane caster I find it's somewhat expected of you to take care of that department. Especially in smaller groups: it's a pain getting AoEd/Save-or-Suck'd as a martial while flanking along with the rogue, for example.
Maybe it's because of this problem that I still have difficulties considering Valor a good archetype for a primary spellcaster/sole spellcaster. Although you've made my mind about them being good fullcasters.
Given that any bard can pick up counterspell at level 10 if they need, magical secrets is pretty circumstantial. If you are running into a lot of casters during tier 2, then in may be worth it, but if you know from the outset of the campaign that it will be enemy caster heavy, bring an abjurer.
Good guide, but you should have mentioned that buying a longbow might be really worthwile at 6th level. Just because you *can* be in melee doesn't mean you *have* to (at least not all the time). With 16 DEX and extra attack, a longbow will do decent damage at a very long range and allow you pick important targets and/or focus fire more effectively without risking losing your concentration in melee.
I never considered valor as a spellcaster - the better AC and inspiration is a tempting consideration! But I would truly miss, if I'm building a caster bard, the Lore Bard's early spell stealing. If I need between fight heals, healing spirit or the Pal lvl 3 equivalent is good (HS got errata'd and is no longer insanely good). If I want to sometimes nuke, fireball is not horrible. If no one can rez, the lvl 3 rez spell is good. If the DM lets you pick what arrives, conjure animals can be amazing. There are many other great spells to consider.
If we can't multiclass, the lack of AC will really hurt the Lore Bard, however. But a 1-dip in hexblade (or other classes) fixes this without seriously gimping the character. We'll be 1 level behind in our bard progression, but that's not all that bad. And what we get is AC 19, Shield spell, Armor of Agathys, and Eldritch Blast (if we want a ranged cantrip nuke). Shield and Armor of Agathys (castable by any bard slot) = amazing.
Lets think about level 10. If I'm Valor and no one in the party can rez, I'm going to be under a lot of pressure to steal Raise Dead. But I also want Wall of Force and probably Circle of Power (which is broken at tier 2, as Pals don't get it til they are much higher level). And as a Valor I can't take Raise Dead, Wall of Force and Circle of Power at level 10. But as a Lore Bard I can have Revivify, Wall of Force and Circle of Power - which is quite strong. Of course this decision gets very complex - say there is a Pal in the party - with his aura do I really need Circle of Power? Maybe not, though it's still better than the Pal's aura - its radius is bigger and so on. If we're fighting a powerful caster, Circle of Power is stupid-nice. If we never fight casters, it's useless. And if there's a pal in the party, he can now take Revivify - but would he ever cast it? Maybe he only ever smites and never casts. So again, not an easy decision to make.
I will admit I'm surprised that Valor works as well as you say as a pure caster, and this video is very much worth considering - so thank you very much! But I'd be very torn and would have to also strongly consider a Lore Bard 19/Hexblade 1 or a Lore Bard 18/Hexblade 2 (if I wanted 2 invocations).
I'm so glad you keep emphasizing the potency of being a caster over melee. I see so many people taking perfectly good casters and building them into meleers.
Bards, Clerics, even Bladesingers and Hexblades, can accomplish so much more as casters. Who cares about martial weapon proficiencies if you can win a fight with a single cast?
Christian Swensen Yeah except classes like Bladesingers and Valor Bards are kind of a bait and switch. You sell the players on a weapon toting gish, but it turns out you’re not actually any good at fighting and is better off just staying in the back casting spells like every other full caster. So then what’s the point? Just be a full caster.
That’s why I always recommend players who actually want to fight to just take a Hexblade dip, and the ones who just want to cast in armor/shield to start Fighter 1 to also get the CONsave proficiency.
@@M0ebius I wouldn't call it a bait and switch. I'd call it poor decision making. I'm crystal clear on the fact that when I play a wiz, cleric, bard, sorcerer, etc, that I'm playing a caster. Further, I wouldn't want to give up the casting for melee. Poor trade, in my opinion.
I'd even say that Hexblade is better off as a caster than a meleer. Yes, WLs don't get the same types of slots as other casters. But there are other factors in play, and they're still better as casters than swinging a stick.
Christian Swensen With a well built Gish you’re not giving up casting for melee at all. You are good at both (at the cost of a delayed spell progression) and you either pick the tool appropriate for the job or have one complement the other, filling whatever role the party needs at the moment.
A Lore Bard Hexblade for instance can have both Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon up while smashing away with his weapon, and still have Armor/Shield/Shield spell/Cutting Words to backup his defense. Or Dissonant Whispers into Booming Blade with full modifier damage. A Sword Bard Hexblade can output more melee damage than a Paladin at level 11 by taking Holy Weapon with his Magical Secrets while laying down the Blade Flourishes. So on and so forth.
If anything I would say that a proper charisma Gish is so well rounded and versatile that it almost makes pure martial classes unnecessary.
1- slowing spell progression is a HUGE cost. Getting the spell you need a week after you need it has zero value.
2- let's assume you have something like a Bladesinger or Swords Bard that has full spell progression. Every round you spend swinging a weapon, instead of casting, is (usually) non-optimal.
It's not that I don't think a caster should be able to melee. That's largely irrelevant. The point is that a GWM Sorcadin who is bragging about his smites, has missed many opportunities to be of greater benefit to his group by controlling, buffing or debuffing. Even when it does come to damage, spells are often more effective. I mean, a successful save still takes half damage... So the Sorcadin doing 60+ dmg to a single target is a net loss when he could have done 24+ dmg to several targets simultaneously.
There are several martial classes, who mix magic already. This is not to disparage them. It is simply acknowledging that for most classes, in most cases, casting is more powerful than melee. Even when you're great at both, casting is better.
I don't think hexblades or warlocks for that matter make for good primary spellcasting damage dealers. I think warlocks are far stronger if they are treated more like a fighter w tricks or a rogue with tricks. At least in my campaign experience they always starving for spell slots. Lean on the invocations and supplement w spells
Teleportation circle is useless on the campaign I play in. My cleric used all of her gold to cast revivify once. At level 13. Our DM gives us no money.
Dude, that blows. Drop the alignment concerns and rob a bank
So animate objects is only a bonus action on one turn. As long as they still can follow that action, you don't have to use subsequent ones to keep it going.
I was curious about your insights on bards and their spells. At level 4 you took the CHA ASI over a feat saying that you generally prefer that. In your more recent builds, you generally seem to prefer to feat up concentration saves over the ASIs, with occasional characters not increasing their main attribute until 12. What led to your change in perspective?
Mostly discussion with other players. I still don't think the ability score boost is a bad way to go though.
Thank you! This was a good set of videos and even though I tend to value the lore bard abilities more than AC, I do think the valor bard is a great bard. Your note of how bad their attacks are is definitely agreed. Poor PHB gishes. Thank you again!
PS I know you're busy and have plenty of videos planned, but one I suggest a bit back that you may find fun if you get a chance is a "God Wizard" Warlock. How effective could it be? It's also not a video your channel has on it (only Warlock is the Hexblade Bow and the Sorlock) and the non Hexblade doesn't get a lot of love these days.
My Bard is the party healer, so he's grabbing things like Raise Dead as he goes along.
In this series and the Trickster cleric you mention using a crossbow on standby when you have no other options for your turn, but have you considered the humble sling? It does on average 1 less hp per hit, but is one-handed, so you can use it without dropping your shield. Also, if you happen to be rolling for gold during character creation, or have a miserly DM, you save tons of money both up front and on ammo, and it takes a lot of weight off your loadout, which is good for a low-strength character. Also is quite inconspicuous and easy to hide if you're trying to keep a low profile. For the mere cost of 1hp/use, it's just so many upsides.
weapons with the ammunition property require a free hand to load, so shield and sling doesn't work.
Grr, dang errata. I searched my PHB all over to check if that was the case and it looked like it wasn't. Guess they felt like sling was too strong and needed a nerf.
@@sharkforce8147 It's even worse than that. They wanted to shut down people who were interpreting the Crossbow Expert to mean that they needed two Hand Crossbows in order to get the bonus action attack. Because using two hand crossbows put too much strain on the imagination of some people in a game where you are playing as an elf fighting a dragon.
The worst part about it was they went out of their way to clarify that you could simply use one hand crossbow and get the bonus action attack. It didn't even change the DPR at all! WotC actually just went out of there way to shut down some people who were having badwrongfun.
Could you do a creation bard guide? I really like it but I need some RAW song of creation tactics. I haven't seen anyone do one yet.
I've been making closet-sized, 5x5 cages that block sight. BA telekentic feat shove a medium or smaller creatures in, then use a free object interaction to shut the door. We've been doing a contested strength check to get out but if the creature's still inside on my turn I throw a lock on the cage.
Someone else from Colby's D4 comments said dancing object + conjure shadow spawn (despair) means a -30 movement speed, so any creature with only 55 movement speed or less couldn't stand up if knocked prone. That was a cool idea.
I don't know if my cage strategy is RAW but the creatures have been getting bigger. Plus I got trapped inside the closet/cage myself once lol. I'd like to hear your ideal creation bard.
At about 16 mins in, you talk about using a component pouch over an instrument focus. I'm pretty new to spellcasting classes so I was wondering why this was because I thought arcane focuses and component pouch were pretty much interchangeable.
Nope, not entirely. I explain it in detail in this video: ruclips.net/video/nk1Up4hXUko/видео.html
In regards to animate object, while it’s a bonus action you can’t cast more spells than 1+a cantrip
So far this guide is basically telling me to play as a regular bard but with armor and shield proficiencies. Might as well start as a fighter or something.
I think you're missing the point I'm making in the video. The power of the Bard is their spells. You can either gimp their spellcasting for defense, or just get the defense without gimping their spellcasting by gaining Armor and Shield proficiencies as a subclass ability.
I am so confused with the responses that say, "Sounds like based on what you're saying, I'm just as well to piss on my spellcasting ability to get armor and shield another way, then I can be another kind of bard..."
Somewhere there's a disconnect or I explained the value of Bard spellcasting compared to subclass abilities poorly.
I think the argument that the power of the Bard is their spells is undermined by your selection of duds like Comprehend Languages and Friends. If you want to show how a Bard can provide value for a party, perhaps highlighting spells like Tasha’s or Dissonant Whispers would be prudent.
I guess some people only consider the value of a character based on his DPS, *shrugs*
Hey Treantmonk, love your videos and your guides. Just a short question. What are you doing with your action after casting a concentration spell like hypnotic pattern?
Firstly, you can always pack some non concentration spells like Blindness/Deafness.
But mostly, that's where the Valour Bard's weapon proficiency come into play. After you drop an H.Pattern, pull out your rapier (or preferably longbow) and start attacking some people.
Fantastic video, just one question. Don't I need the Warcaster feat in order to make this work? If my instrument focus is in one hand and my shield is in my other hand, I'll need Warcaster to cast anything with a Somatic component, right?
I made a video to link for exactly this kind of question:
ruclips.net/video/nk1Up4hXUko/видео.html
Yeah I understand that a shield is good but after two videos all you've convinced me is that using a shield is smart.
To me the Valor bard still falls short if it's design purpose. It is going to be undervalued for that alone. Still more AC is nice but I think getting to take full advantage of your subclass is more satisfying.
Ebonzai Agreed. If you just want the armor/shield then go Lore Bard and start Fighter 1 - you’d also get CONsave proficiency and Defense Fighting Style. If you actually want to fight like the subclass promises, then you basically have to dip a level or two in Hexblade.
I myself take both, because when I gish I want to actually swing my weapon around.
I would go with breastplate and shield. Half plate gives disadvantage to dex saves! +1 to ac isn't worth that. Trade up to half plate after you take the feat.
I thought Half Plate just gives disadvantage to stealth rolls
@@thenicemare
You are right. But disadvantage to stealth can be a killer all by itself!
Ruby of the war mage is a great common Magical item
Is it possible for you to make a text document of these guides? or share the dndbeyond character sheet?
The D&D beyond Character sheet is linked in the description of part 3. I didn't want to give away any spoilers ;)
I'm so confused here - we talk about valor bard being one of the best subclasses but literally I'm seeing we are using our subclass choice and features on what you could basically accomplish with the moderately armored feat since the rapier is not used by Billy. Might as well pick one of the other colleges (valor or glamour) and just get moderately armored and you have essentially all their goodies plus all the goodies treantmonk is advocating. You had me convinced with the trickery cleric - this one I'm not so sure.
I can elaborate. To start with, how would you access Moderately Armored? Would you go variant human or use an early level ASI?
@@TreantmonksTemple seems to me either one would be good - if we use the guide here (and I agree whole heatedly with your race analysis for bards) let's say we use the same half from and use our first ASI for moderately armored. Yes, you are 1 Cha modifier behind Billy, but in exchange for that you now have let's say Lore bards cutting words and the future magical secrets. If we use this guide as the template, we give up 2 Cha in exchange for lvl 3 and 6 subclass features that we will actually use and not just say eh, rapier is not that efficient compared to our options.
@@elpablodiabloepd So what I'm hearing is that we will trade Combat Inspiration for Cutting words (a decent trade, but not a huge deal). Then we will trade +1 Cha bonus, which means -1 to spell DC's for the ability to add 2 spells known to our list. Considering casting spells is our primary role, making that worse seems like a very steep price. You do get one more subclass ability at level 14 (if you get that far), but it's not a good ability. It allows one of the 3 uses of Inspiration (the least useful one) to be used as a self-buff. That's OK, but not a big deal. Now I guess at level 12 the Cha catches up, but you will always be a feat behind and will never catch that up. I will concede that taking that route isn't bad, but I'm not seeing it as superior. Am I missing something?
@@TreantmonksTemple I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. I personally see having additional features that I will use and greater versatility in spell choice to be worth the difference of 1 point in spell DC. Especially when we consider access strong spell choices to fill out that gap of non conc non bonus action spells, which eases the burden on our bonus action economy
Treantmonk's Temple The disconnect is that people who pick Valor in the first place are people who want to both cast spells and fight with weapons. It’s what the subclass is sold as after all. But the only thing your video really shows so far is that Armor+Shield is very good on a caster, good enough in fact to just totally ignore the lvl 6 class feature which is sub-optimal, when alternatively the general consensus is that Lore Bard has both a superior level 3 subclass feature and arguably the best level 6 subclass feature, but just missing that Armor/Shield.
Gamers 2. Great movie.
You need a VERY generous DM to afford a 750gp armor at lvl 3 lol
Equipping half plate gives me disadvantage on stealth, bur you don't have disadvantage on the sheet?
Because of Medium Armor Master
hmm, if you're using your bonus action for spells or whatever you're not using it for inspiration.
How could you stop us at level 9. I need to know the magical secrets man its the most agonising part of playing a bard.
Elias Patrikis I’m betting Counterspell for one.
Dissonant whispers is half damage on a save
On a scale from bard to bard:
bards?
Most classes only go up to ten. But look here, this class goes up to 11.
9/10
Honest question, are these guides built without using optional multicast rules? As you would get a lot of the same results from starting as a fighter and then going lore bard for its extra abilities. You would be behind the curve but only by 1 level (maybe more if you want some of that sweet action surge action at any point). I do always feel the 1 or 2 level dip can be a bit cheesy though.
Killian Duggan Hexblade dip is where it’s at if you actually want to mix it up in combat. But yes you are absolutely correct, Lore Fighter in my opinion is stronger than straight Valor.
@@M0ebius Dipping Warlock is always annoying to me though as with just 2 levels you turn whatever you are playing into an Eldritch Blast machine.
Dipping ruins spell progression, so he tends to stay away from it. Waiting a full level for level 4 or 5 spells can be pretty significant.
Killian Duggan With Hexblade you get a ton of stuff just dipping 1.
@@M0ebius dipping still ruins spell progression, which is why TM doesn't do it until after level 17.
Billy, don't be a hero!
Oh, wait. Maybe. Hmmn...this Billy might be a hero. But he should stay back.
Yes, don't be a hero
ruclips.net/video/6cdFuMgMkBM/видео.html
It seems like the only thing that makes Valor good is the AC thus far, and the Extra Attack is only ever so slightly better than the Cleric’s Divine Strike.
Might be better off just taking Lore Bard with level 1 as Fighter for Armor, Shield, Defense Fighting Style, and CONsave proficiency. Or take Hexblade so you can actually hit stuff.
Which do you think makes the better caster, a fighter 1/lore bard X or a Valor Bard X+1? If you think the former, I would be interested in why you think so?
Treantmonk's Temple It depends on the context. At level 1-2? Lore Bard Fighter - one less spell slot for much better combat capabilities. At level 5? Valor Bard - lvl 3 spells are just so much stronger. At level 6? Tie, but I prefer Cutting Word with Font of Inspiration. At level 7? Lore Bard Fighter, because the best level 3 spells are equal to or stronger than most level 4 spells. At level 20? Lore Bard Fighter - same slots, better AC, more spells, better Initiative/Counterspells, and more versatile use of Bardic Inspiration.
We can break it down for all the levels but in short, I think Lore Bard Fighter has the edge between class features, CONsave proficiency, and a slight edge in AC. Bard capstone is utter garbage.
Treantmonk's Temple Overall I’d take the Lore Bard Fighter, but I’d prefer Lore Hexblade even more if only for Hex, Shield, Booming Blade, and Eldritch Blast.
Incidentally Hex Warrior+Booming Blade/GFB+Shield spell probably makes Lore Hexblade a strictly superior Valor Bard if the intention is to mix it up in melee at all.
@@M0ebius "At level 7? Lore Bard Fighter, because the best level 3 spells are equal to or stronger than most level 4 spells" We will have to agree to disagree I think.
Treantmonk's Temple My case would be that at level 7, a Lore Bard Fighter with Counterspell/Spirit Guardians is equal to if not better than the single casting of Polymorph the Valor Bard can manage. Especially when factoring how efficient the level 3 slot becomes with the Lore Bard Fighter: Best range option in Hypnotic Pattern, best melee option in Spirit Guardians, best (2nd best?) Counterspeller in the game with Jack of All Trades/Peerless Skill, and the best ritual in the game in Tiny Hut. You have excellent options for most combat situations and the proficiency bonuses (both CONsave concentration & spellcasting ability) to back it up.
In this case I think versatility trumps power, especially when that power is once a day.