The Rules for Sorcerer Make no Sense - D&D
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- Опубликовано: 20 авг 2024
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Dungeons and Dragons, XP to level 3 with Davvychappy, potentially a bit a Critical Role with dungeoneering, tabletop community next to tabletop RPG, dungeons and dragons, Fjord, Beau, Jester, Yasha, Caleb, Nott, 5th edition dragons, 3.5e, dungeon dudes, DM GM, dungeon master, game master tips sprinkle a bit of Caduceus, Mollymauk in the Mighty Nein. Matt Mercer.
Quick note: fireball does not target a creature, it targets an area
It reads "that targets only one creature" not "that doesn't target multiple creatures". Since it targets zero creatures, it does not target only one creature.
For sure, i just wanted to do the play on word between firebolt and fireball ^^
You have to choose a creature to center it on though, is that not targeting a single creature?
@@lucirmarvrasrockurd2029 for fireball you don't choose a creature, but a space, occupied or unoccupied to center it on
@@lucirmarvrasrockurd2029 The gist of it is that you cant twin the spell, no matter how you want to rephrase or interpret it.
I agree. The spell gives 1 creature a breath weapon. It targets 1 creature, there's nothing else to say.
Sage advice would disagree with you.
@@daleanddale and sage advice would be wrong for doing so.
If that's how they want it to work they need to rewrite dragons breath or twinned spell.
Can I twin polymorph? Magic Weapon? Mage Armor? There is a very long list of single target spells that can effect multiple creatures.
With that sage advice every spell needs a tag on whether or not it can be twinned.
@@gabemerritt3139 a tag for all the spells that can be twinned would be alot easier than all the sage advice, erratas and contradicting rulings
@@gabemerritt3139 Fully agree except for mage armor which has a range of self which disqualifies it.
@@daleanddale sage advice can go jump off a bridge, they can't tell me what to do
Our DM also disregarded Crawford's ruling on dragon's breath. And my storm sorcerer did rejoice.
Sorlock with a Pseudodragon familiar gonna go torch things up with their babby dragon.
Yeah. A lot of his rulings are dumb. Dont forget he was the man Beyond the messy 4 ed and he s pretty incompetent as designer. 5ed lowered so much the level of quality that sometimes you don t realize how basic It Is.
I disagree with the reasoning it clearly states. The target is touch i.e. one creature but it’s concentration. You can’t concentrate on two spells so this still might not work. Also haste is concentrate 🤷🏼♂️
@@andrewcole8498 i think the key factor is that your adding a target to the spell rather than copying the spell. So a twinned haste just acts like an upcasted fly.
@@andrewcole8498 You would concentrate on it the same way you would if you didn't use Twinned Spell. All you do is make the buff affect 1 extra person. If you lose concentration the spell ends on both targets.
At the end of the day, the DM can alter any rule he likes if he believes it's for the best.
Well the DM is basically the Thanos(reality stone not often included) of the campaign
Except polymorph.
Or just make a different ruling
Though it's bad form to alter rules after session zero without player agreement.
"he" 🤨
This is less "sorcerer makes no sense" and more "why in 7 hells are we singling out this one particular buff?"
Or more to the point, why do we care what Crawford thinks. If he’s wrong he’s wrong
People need to understand; Crawford does not implement rules anymore. What he says may be what was intended, but not actually what's in the book. His rules are non canon
@Bryce Nelson hell in one of my favorite tweets from him he replied to his own tweet which said that tiny hut doesnt have a floor (which he based on nothing) his reply to this was him say "read your own book for once it has a floor".
Point is he makes some good point and some bad ones, some make sense some dont, you gotta either cherry pick or just ignore what he says.
Unless they are about canons
@@kyuuketsukikun420 If it's already Canon, yes. However if he describes how certain things work, what he says is not canon. Take Thunderwave as an example.
The spell states that it's casted on self, and a thunderous wave sweeps out from you, *originating* from you. Rules as written this is the correct way. X=Wave C=You
X X X
X C X
X X X
This would be the correct casting, Crawford however said that it follows the generic rules of a cube and should be casted like;
X X X
C X X X
X X X
This honestly makes much more sense, however the spell is no longer "Self", casting infront of you is 5ft, which the spell does not say Self/5ft.
Crawford's advice should be taken seriously, however nothing he says with how rules should work, are canon. Anyone is free to implement his rulings into their games, however that makes them no longer rules as written and are a modification for better or for worse.
The books themselves are non-canon. The only canon that matters is at your table
@@greatjagras6381 a cube originates from one face and spreads out, so your second interpretation is correct and is a range of self. The reason the range is self in the second example is because the point of origin is on the edge of the square you occupy, and the point of origin can be anywhere along a face of the cube.
I have to say, though, that (according to Crawford) you can't, in fact, twin firebolt, since it has the ability to target an object
That is supremely stupid of Crawford when twin says “When you cast a spell that targets only one creature…” which any sane person would take to mean “when your casting of a spell only targets one creature, etc.”
The only other qualifier as it pertains to fire bolt says “To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level.”
So either the wording of twinned spell is wrong or Crawford is wrong. And I’m putting my money on the book. This has been an issue since 2016 with people arguing these spells and THEY REFUSE to put in a real errata to print and update their criteria for twinned, the poorly worded spells, and the spell rules in general to make things clearer.
Did you know fireball is, as far as I know, the only AoE to reference the creatures in its area as targets? If this was intentional then every AoE that says “a creature” would need errata or rules spelling out that any creature in a spell area counts as a “target” for the purpose of game rules, which makes things way worse.
@@jemm113 tbf the reason for the no object ruling is resurrection spells.
But yeah its a really dumb ruling...
@@jemm113 you mean like where they explain that any creature effected by the damage of a spell is a target of a spell from the officially released "Sage Advice - targeting revisited" video from the DND RUclips channel released 2 years ago....?
Also, the wording is that way to prevent upcasted spells from creating awkward spell interactions it is why warcaster has the wording you want but twinned spell doesn't. Twinned spell can create more than just basic effects and creating multiple of some of them can cause improper game functions.
Here’s something else that’s kind of dumb:
Eldritch blast can be twinspelled… unless you’re level 5+
The idea of a sorcerer technically losing an ability due to becoming more powerful is just a little funny to me.
I'd flavour it as them using it so much that it just *becomes* twinned, sort of like a Wizard getting the ability to cast their fav levelled spells infinitely
It is a bit funny, but I struggle to imagine how it would work with such a multiattack spell
Maybe Twin in this case would give you +1 Extra Ray that cannot effect the same creature as any other targets of the spell 🤔
I’d argue that this isn’t a problem, since Metamagic and Eldritch Blast come from different classes. Even though multiclassing and certain feats allow you to access both at the same time, they’re clearly not intended to interact with eachother. It’s in the same vein as Barbarian not being able to cast spells while raging.
You can use use twinspell for any effect that only target one creature, so I would say you can only twinspell lvl5+ Eldritch blast if all the rays of the first blast were directed on a single creature and the rays of the second on an other. Not sure if it is RAW but I would allow it as a DM.
The same could be done for similar spells like magic missile.
@@trebmal587 that is against RAW yes, and I personally don’t run it that way (that’s how you get situations like ‘can I fireball twice if only 1 creature is in the AoE?’, which gets very powerful very quickly)
Though if you’re the DM and you don’t have problems with it, I’m not an authority, and if your players like it too then good on you
My man actually pulled out a clip from a cinematic from that game that got sued by league, didn't expect that lmao
lel
nah that clip is from the Avengers flat. The flim
@@carlsmagicbicep9736 ...... Can't tell if troll or dum dum
@@fleentstones117 he just joking
Lmao mobile legeneds
As long as you can feasibly imagine two instances of a spell being cast simultaneously, I say why not?
I mean, I can feasibly imagine two fireballs just as easily as two firebolts
@@jamieadams2589 especially because fireball is just you pointing at some point in space and there’s a goofy-ass explosion.
Let's not whip out the 16d6 fireballs
@@rednidedni3875 coward.
@@kylewashburn5840 y'all forgetting you have martial classes in this game too
Me who immediately goes for subtle spell to cast stinking cloud: "aww who farted?"
*Chokes and starts dying*
Almost every yltime Crawford makes a statement.
"Yeah ill ignore that"
Crawford is always overruled by your DM. He's also too obsessed with elves which makes his words worth even less.
I had the same discussion about ice knife. While yes the cold explosion can affect multiple targets, the spell itself specifically says that you "target one creature" with the actual knife.
And if it’s such a problem then rule that each creature can only be effected by one copy of the spell even if it would be hit by both.
It’s a simple ruling and many use it to justify allowing the sorcerer to twin ANY spell. Just make sure the sorcerer can’t double-dip on actual effects in overlapping areas!
I love the back round music memories
For nostalgic reasons, your choice of background music is therapeutic. Lumbridge for the win
As soon as I heard, "I acknowledge that the council has made a decision" I knew where this was going.
Y’all haven’t lived till you’ve twin spelled disintegrate
I let Twinned Spell work on ANY spell.
It's never broken my game and seems fair considering the amount of Sorcerer Points they get.
I more or less agree with this ruling - but note that with Area spells, creatures should not be targetable by both Areas at the same time
I.E. You can throw fireballs in two different directions - you cannot throw two fireballs in one cluster to do double damage (16d8 at level 5 via one Action)
Creatures in the area of both fireballs simply make save against one Spells effects, similar to if you tried casting multiple copies of a buff spell on the same creature.
Similarly - I would consider Spells with multiple Rays / Attacks such as Scorching Ray. Spells like these should not have a usage case to double their damage output
I'm sorry what? You must not have very inventive players then? Because I can't possibly see twinned spell fireball or hold monster/person NOT wrecking an encounter.
Sorcere I know you have 8 enemies here so imma just casting a 4th lv hold person and minus 4 points.
Next round: Eh let's twin fireball the paralysed enemies. One on top of the other.
They auto fail the save so 8d6 x2 of fire damage.
Oh FIGHTER would you like to mop up the rest with some critical hits?
Edit: And that's just off the top of my head.
Twin spell wall of fire and just have a person pushing them into two walls effect (10 feet)
@@SpectralKnight creatures that are immune or resistant to Fire are plentiful, and there are several that either a) roll saves against spells with advantage, or b) are flat out immune to being paralyzed.
As well as multiple having high wis saves, which is what is used for hold spells
@@TheGaboom Exactly and I usually put them in tight conditions, so double Fireball is impossible.
I'm glad to see more people rising up against the Sage Advice
I've always hated the "Well Jeremy Crawford said ___ on Sage Advice."
Jeremy Crawford isn't my DM. He has no control over the rules to my game.
Sage Advice and Crawford's Twitter are different things. Sage Advice a column that is thought through properly and checked against the rules, Crawford's Twitter rulings are snap decisions. Anyone can forget the specifics of a rule in a snap decision, even if they were involved in writing it.
I think you should take Sage Advice rulings as seriously as you take the rules in the PHB (however seriously or unseriously that is for you) and the Twitter rulings should be broadly ignored.
@@EDoyl If it ain't in the book, it ain't in the RAW
@@pinkliongaming8769 RAW matters a lot less than you think. If you go 100% RAW, sending doesn't work if your target has total cover, because you can't target someone with total cover and sending doesn't specify it ignores that part of the targeting rules.
So by RAW sending is a bad 3rd level message, and nobody plays it like that.
@@Pingviinimursu Also RAW, See Invisibility doesn't remove nullify the Invisible condition for the person casting See Invisibility.
That disadvantage you get because they're invisible? That's not going away, even while you stare them in the eyes as you swing at them.
One of the top 10 DM quotes ever
That is quite possibly one of my favourite quotes in cinema ever, thank you very much for using it.
My friend group just had this conversation and came to the same conclusion. Our thought process was comparing dragons breath to polymorph.
I am living for the RuneScape music in the background ❤
Here is my take. If it's not in the sourcebook, it's not valid as mechanical rules, for all we know crawford could tweet one day that wizards cannot breath while casting spells so if a wizard casted spells multiple turns in a row he will suffocate
A tweet doesn't mean anything against the books i've paid for.
This just comes down to WotC not defining terms, in particular “target”
One thing my DM did was that twinned spell could be used with any spell, but a creature could only be affected by one
Love that you have an Eberron book in the background! I’m running my first Eberron campaign now and am so so very happy I don’t have any sorcerers in the party lmao
*the rules for d&d make no sense
Embrace it!
LMAO THE BACKGROUND GRAPHIC FOR HASTE MEMES
This was actually something suggested by the animated spell book.
Twinned spell dragons breath on two mice.
Even though the mice can’t attack they can activate the breath effect.
So my double pet rat flamethrower was legit... FUCK YEAH!
I agree, the spell Dragon's Breath targets a friendly creature! The breath weapon is the frosting!!
Never played a Sorcerer, the whole Metamagic is just too confusing for me. Even though I understand how it works...
That being said, I would have thought that this Breath attack wouldn't work because you breath it out or something.
The dragons breath spell gives the creature you target the ability to do dragon breath, the spell itself isn’t what is doing the damage. You are targeting a single ally to cast a spell on them, therefore you should be able to twin it
All you need to know is that subtle quicken twin and empowered are all you need... subtle if you like casting magic in social situations or if your dm is aware of counter spell. And empowered because it's the only meta magic that can be used on top of another meta allowing you to reroll 1s on dmg die increasing your average dmg on spells rolling lots of dice
Ironically, 5th ed (which I hate) has gotten the closest to getting metamagic right!
@@depecher6s311 The spell itself is doing the damage, as the breath's effects are part of the spell description. It definitely doesn't work RAW for that reason, though I'd allow it being used like this.
@@flounder2760 you don't need subtle if the DM ignores spell components and their perceptibility
That is one of my favorite quotes being put to good use
You are absolutely right. Haste can no longer be twin spelled in my game. Thank you for pointing this out
Man D&D has changed a lot since 3.5
For the worst
As soon as crawford was mentioned, my bs detector pinged right away
Twinned Mind Sliver into quickened banishment upcast to target both creatures you mind sliver has been one of my favorites to take people out of fights. I’ve also been stacking bane and mind sliver and man debuffing is fun.
The fact that the clips is from the game I play makes it look cool
I always ruled it as does it do the effect vs does it give the effect to hurt multiple people. If it gives the effect you're good. If it does the effect then obviously not.
Crawford was taken off the council last I checked
I mean, the guy said smacking someone with a bow is a ranged attack and that throwing a greatsword is a melee attack
I feel like a lot of D&D stuff like this is, to quote Captain Barbosa: “more like guidelines than actual rules”.
Just like how Polearm master doesn't work on tridents, despite tridents being polearms.
Baaaaaaah, I’ve reached the point where I don’t let other DMs influence my rulings. I don’t even know who this Crawford person is. I’d let Dragon’s Breath work. Because you still have to touch 1 willing creature.
Simple solution, ignore Crawford’s interpretation of the spell’s interaction with this metamagic option. He’s wrong. End of story.
For area of effect I would make it to double the area with twinned spell instead of casting the spell twice
It has sense, it has utility, you're allowing more interactions and it has the same damage output, only an increasing range
For example, Healing Circle (I think that's the name) with twinned spell would allow you to create a larger area to fit more people inside, instead of doubling the effect and therefore healing more than intended
Twinned haste is the perfect way to a tpk when you will lose concentration
Go warcaster and hide I guess. But yeah its a double edge sword. If your party has more than 3-4 people I think twinning haste is fine. Idk doe
It just sounds like Crawford is trying to make dumb stuff up that literally isn't in the rules as they made them again.
It specifically says it can't be used on spells that TARGET multiple creature.
Which means technically any spell that only initially would be targeted at one creature should work, no matter how many creatures it can affect afterwards.
Ice Knife for example very specifically targets one creature and then, after hitting and damaging that creature, explodes in a small aoe. It TARGETS one.
It doesn't matter what they want to rule now, they very specifically made this Twin Spells description.
It at no point says it can't be used on spells that affect multiple creatures, only targets.
Dude I love this combo. I tried to twin ice knife the front of a cart that had a bunch of camels pulling it. Targeting the two in the lead would have cause all 4 to get hit by the AOE of both spells, with the added bonus of the front two becoming obstacles that the back two couldn't push through.
I got counterspelled and the temporary BBEG got away...
But it would have been sick 😂
I just see quickened spell as allowing sorcerers to dodge during their turn instead of casting.
That’s quite true, the primary advantage is the ability to take an action to chug a potion, dodge a horde of attacks, as casting a Cantrips on the same turn isn’t generally considered worth the investment.
If you’re looking to maximise the chance of a target failing a spell however, you could arguably cast Mind Sliver as a quickened spell before following up with a devastating heightened levelled spell (e.g. Dominate Person, Disintegrate) since the Mind Sliver cantrip makes a failing target subtract 1d4 from their next saving throw - That’s a target making a saving throw against Disintegrate at disadvantage and then subtracting 1d4 from that save also.
@@mongoliandudeadd a bend luck on top of that
@@cshigaki honestly, since silvery barbs came out anything’s possible 😂
A Psionic Soul sorcerer can cast silvery barbs with no components using just sorcery points 💀
I see it as a quick way to apply Mind Sliver on someone before throwing a save or suck at them.
Quickened spell upcast Hold Person and a twinned Mind Sliver wrecks
This is why I like being a DM, you can ignore every single rule in the book if you want
I love giving dragon's breath to my imp familiar. It's definitely my most cast spell.
Disallowing concentration spells in general from being twinned is actually a perfectly fine (and honestly good) move. Twinned polymorph "both my friends are t-rexes now" is a nightmare to balance for as a DM
Hm...Balance in general post Polymorph is a mess and will depend greatly on the specific table of players 🤔
9 is the start of a lot of crazy world altering spells and crazy builds (Especially if you play with optimizers)
The fact that Sorcerers are capable of multiplying utility out of single-target buff/control spells isn't a huge deal IMO compared to the utility their limited spell list sacrifices compared to other full casters
@@TheGaboom I agree. Even the strongest sorcerer multiclass has a small spell pool. Twinning haste can go horribly wrong and unless the enemies are stupid, why wouldn't they just target the sorcerer
@@sammyiel9626 Because the party recognizes that's a very likely scenario so they have the sorcerer run 30 ft away after casting and drop prone. Even if a ranged attack manages to hit them they just Shield it. Also having 2 new huge monsters on the map generally clogs up the ability for an enemy NPC to reach a sorcerer at all. Think about it, Polymorphing two party members isn't just making two hit point and damage sacks, it's effectively creating a 40 ft. wall too.
@@TheGaboom Yeah, but twinned polymorph sticks out from level 8 shenanigans for being wayyyy more powerful than basically anything else you can do at that level. Even more so with giant apes at level 7. At that point, an optimized martial will be making 3 attacks and have a DPR of like 20 or so. Other 4th level spells include save or sucks like Banishment and utility spells like Dimension Door. Banishment can auto win some encounters, but relies on a save so it does nothing against legendary enemies. Is any of that supposed to compete with twinned polymorph? Twin polymorphing allies always works, so there's no reason not to do it. I'm just saying that the game was clearly not balanced with twinned concentration spells in mind, especially polymorph, and its not a bad idea to ban them. (In fact, Jeremy Crawford agrees with me. The reference to Crawford MonkeyDM made here DOES apply to all concentration spells. Thats the point.) Twinning Rautholim's Psychic Lance is already godly, sorcerers are already crazy strong even without twinned concentration.
@@rowanfornow Okay those are good points that can't go without being adressed but unless the scenarios are always dps duels with every encounter, then the enemies who have more than 2 brain cells can win. At that point its due to bad DM'ing. If an encounter is so straight forward that the answe is always polymorph or haste, then the DM is at fault. I've had and seen games that had overpowered casters being useless bc not everything is damage or health but rather critical thinking. However, I agree that if the DM cannot balance the encounters then its okay to put that rule in place. I just think a good DM can get around making the players feel cool and still challenge them.
Thank you.
The twinned spell limitations are nonsense. Wether a spell targets a creature or many creatures, being able to do it twice precisely doubles it's value.
Crawford's twotter isn't the final say on D&D rules. I can't remember specifics, but he has contracted himself before on rules and WotC has said unless it's in a book, Twitter is not an official source on rules.
Wrong. People always say this but there isn't actually a single time that he's contradicted himself. There are times when he has clarified on a rule (that he wrote) where people have disliked the ruling, such as with the shield master feat. His tweets also literally are an official source on rules and they get added to the sage advice compendium which are official clarifications on rules.
As a wise old resurrected pirate once said "The code is more like guidelines than actual rules"
Ummm actually, haste give extra action which can be used only for 1 attack, therfore one target.
But that attack could hit multiple targets
I think the point is that both spells are single target buffs, just their effect is different. Thats why it logically makes no sense that u can twin only one of the spells even though they work technically identically.
@@25thGoo it's say one weapon attack, normally it's one target. If you have a feature that make it or then 1 ,then it's a combo and unique case.
@@aryking3210 true yet it's sage advice, meaning rai vs raw. And logic as intended is debuff,buff,attack two targets when normally only one
What about the beast barbarian claw attack? That is a single weapon attack that can hit multiple people
I always assumed you couldn't do it with dragon's breath because it's a concentration spell and you can't concentrate on two instances of the same spell at the same time
Twinned spell is the only way (that I'm aware of, and that isn't homebrew) to maintain two instances of concentration at once, because you're concentrating on one spell. It just happens to have two targets, as opposed to its usual one. If you lose concentration on the one spell, both targets lose the effect.
Gotta love the runescape music for the background
I just love the OSRS music in the background for this ❤
Technically, the material used is fresh pepper or any spicy vegetable on our table, which your target would eat. We twin it during the casting, targeting two vegetables.
So, in short: It's another prime example on the list of reasons why Rule Zero exists.
Rules as written, twinned spell DOES work with Dragon's breath. The spell does not target multiple creatures, it targets a single creature no matter which way you spin it.
"You touch one willing creature and imbue it with the power to spew magical energy from it's mouth, provided it has one."
THAT is what the spell does. Everything else does not count. The creatures that are damaged by the breath attack that ensues are not the targets of the spell.
YES! Someone else that understood that area of effects do not make the effected creatures targets!!!!
(Fireball does say as much but it’s the only spell to do so and as the singular exception proves it’s simply terrible wording, formatting of rules, and general editing)
Like good old brennan lee mulligan once said, "screw it, im the DM"
Yup. This is one of the things I discovered when I played my a sorc for the first (proper) time.
Another couple weird things:
You can Twin Eldritch Blast, until level 5. Because after level 5 EB gets more beams, meaning multiple targets, meaning not Twinnable.
Chaos Bolt cannot be Twinned, because it has the potential to jump to another target. This is especially sad considering Chaos Bolt is the only spell that is Sorcerer specific.
I say that's stupid and let them twin it!
chaos bolt in particular sounds dumb to me because the second target requires a whole new attack and damage roll, especially due to this line:
"A creature can be targeted only once by each casting of this spell."
and it only happens under very specific circumstances, by hard raw sure, it might be banned, but it's such a hyperspecific case that i'll very gladly take the stance that: a dm who bans twinned chaos bolt hates fun.
I know in the older versions of d&d, the 1st rule in the book always had said, "these are just guidelines!" Meaning you can take them or leave them!
My DM did the same thing, we just decided "fuck it, twinned spell can just exist anywhere" and it's wonderful
A sorcerer is just a cleric of magic.
Instead of praying, they just meditate until they are blessed with re-newed spells
I'm in the camp Dragon's Breath being twinnable because we have to look at what the Spell actually does "when you cast." Paraphrasing;
Dragon's Breath: Touching ONE willing creature & imbued it with the power to spew magical energy from its mouth. Choose acid, cold, fire, lightning, or poison. The creature can "use an Action" to spew a 15-ft Cone.
Haste: The creature along with other benefits, "gains an additional action" to: Attack (one weapon attack), Dash, Disengage, Hide, Use an object.
They read nearly identical in which it grants you something of an Action to do something else that "could" affect another creature. However, what you do after the cast is up to you. Because at the time of casting, there is only a single target.
I mean, it could get worse. Twins criteria reads, "targets only one creatures." If its able to target objects, its no longer eligible. But I'm sure no one runs it like this... right?
"Shucks, dead creatures are objects. Metamagic Twinned Spell... is completely unusable."
Meanwhile, in my Homebrew.
"You wanna twin wish, fuck it go ahead."
Crawford has also said that you only roll 1d4+1 once for the damage of every magic missile in the spell when it says nothing like that in the spells description, so a lot of the times we do ignore the council’s decisions.
TBF this actually gives magic missile a use past level 10 for evocation wizards where their INT mod to evocation spell rolls then counts for EVERY MISSILE! Plus the wording of MM actually does call into question how the dice are rolled when compared to scorching ray, et al. especially since it’s ability to hit multiple targets is vastly different from other multi-target spells.
S tier song choice
*cries in eldritch blast not being able to be twinned past lv5*
Good thing Jeremy Crawford isn’t sitting at my table :)
Jeremy Crawford couldn’t balance his way out of a cardboard box
He also gives the same reasoning for ice knife. Only hits one target. But because it explodes after initial casting it can't be twinned.
Technically speaking, if you use the haste action to attack, you can only make one attack, and generally speaking you can't hit multiple creatures with one attack roll. So the effect of the spell is still only affecting one creature.
So I think the important differentiation here is that while yes, your ally can attack multiple enemies while under a haste spell, the effect that your magic is maintaining, regardless of your allies choices, is only ever targeting one creature. But with Dragons Breath, its your magic thats now affecting an area, that you are imbuing into an ally, but thematically, it’s still your magic being spewed out of their mouth, while it is not your magic thats directly damaging an area, it’s your fighter slapping the enemy for an entire long rest. But as a sorcerer main, I wanna twinned spell Dragons Breath so bad that sounds like so much fun
I had a problem with twinned breath in my game allowing the party to have access to way too much aoe damage. Worked with the players to allow different type of breath weapons that would only target one enemy in exchange for higher damage and twinable
JC has made so many dubious rulings by now that I ignore everything he says now
*Reminder that Crawford is not an official source for rulings
I love how many Pathfinder spells for Sorcerer that are single target in 5e have multi-target or AOE versions in Pathfinder.
Mass Haste is such an amazing clutch spell for Sorcerers in Pathfinder, same with Protection from Energy, Communal and Stoneskin, Communal
I had a DM tell me I couldn’t twin spell Fire bolt cantrip because it can target a single creature OR OBJECT. I never played another session with him again.
That is a really poor understanding of what the wording of twin does. As long as that spell targets creatures and can only target one creature, no more no less and isn’t range of self it’s free to be twinned
I almost never choose twinned spell because it costs points equal to the level of the spell while also having such a strange restriction. Most of the time I take subtle and distant spell for support or quickened and empowered spell for offense. But my favorite build with a sorcerer is 14 levels storm sorcerer and 6 levels tempest cleric which gives me access to call lightning and the channel divinity to deal maximum damage on lightning spells. It also lets me shock enemies that hit me as a reaction which causes them to be pushed, and storm sorcerer pushes them whenever they take lightning damage. So instead I take transmute spell so I can take all the strongest chromatic damage spells and cast them all as if it were lightning
Crawford also said that 'unarmed strikes count as weapon attacks
But you cant smite with unarmed strikes because they're not weapon attacks'
In the same tweet so yknow
That ruling is stupid and we allow our homebois to punch with the *POWER OF GOD* God dammit!
Also a great spell "Chromatic orb" the damage output is just fantastic
- You cant stack a +2 on a +2
- Thanks for the cards but well take it from here
*Laughs in haste addicted barbarian*
Twin spell dragons breath? Okay but it's giving a new meaning to firehole
Just because the spell can only target a single create a doubt that the person standing next to the goblin that got sent back to hell is going to be even recognizable after it cooks them medium well
I love how old school runescape login screen music is playing
I believe the infallible JC has also ruled that Fire Bolt also cannot be twinned because it can target objects…
Crawford has no idea what he's doing, "rules as crawford" is a meme for a reason
It actually does make sense, here is what Twinned Spell says: "Twinned Spell. When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip). To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are."
Here's the thing, magic missile and scorching ray either target multiple creatures when used, or has an AoE (a line in the case of Scorching Ray, but not Ray of Frost). Moreover, it states it can't have a range of "self" which ironically includes all touch spells (nothing in the rules prevents one from using a touch spell on one's self) and it'd also mean that concentration spells are excluded as well. Dragon's Breath is a concentration spell which lasts for up to one minute or until the caster's concentration is broken, and ostensibly that means Haste is ineligible as well.
Now, as a GM, I'd utterly ignore this aspect of the rule entirely and remove the restrictions entirely. I understand the logic behind it, but it undermines the purpose of metamagic in the first place. It's not stupid, it's a balancing attempt, but balancing by way of nerfing defeats the purpose of the game.
D&D isn't about balancing by making each class equal, it's about making each class a niche with a key area they excel in doing, to be complimented by the other classes. Sorcs are cardboard and meant to be heavy damage dealers. So limiting twinned spell when it costs so many sorc points for something like magic missile which only does 1d4 per missile is just silly.
I do not recall making this decision
I think that it makes sense as far as a lore perspective of, “the spell gives the weirder the abillity to breathe fire”, where if the spell can only target yourself. Tho idk if you can cast it on others
This mob has overruled the council!
Double lightning bolt, become palpatine
The entire rule set of dnd can be aplyed to the meme
A good home ruling was made, and there was much rejoicing.