The Herbivore and the Christmas Cake - A Full Bodied Critique of Catherine
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
- Catherine is a game quite unlike any other. On a surface level it explores themes of fidelity and compromise to the tune of titillating thrills, but beneath its lurid, provocative surface lies a far less sexy problem at the heart of modern day Japan.
The video contains mild visual spoilers for Catherine, flashing lights and risqué imagery.
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You can find more work by Patrick Henaghan at discobible.com
My man, I started watching your material recently, and you're fueling my own desire to make stuff like this. I've been toying with the idea of giving talks on comics, video games and also animation as powerful cultural artifacts. Keep on doing your thing, you rock.
Thanks!! You absolutely should follow that passion and make videos- I can only speak from personal experience but this channel has helped me appreciate the hobbies I love in totally new ways, and it's been incredibly satisfying making the content. If you ever get started let me know, I'd love to check them out!
Up until now I've perceived Catherine as being a puzzle game with some anime cut scenes that tell a goofy raunchy story. It's videos like this that stop me from missing out on quality artistic experiences and I look forward to buying Full Body when it releases! Thank you.
Okay, pausing half way in so that I can come back when I eventually play the game in 2055.
Meh, no time for playing all the games, I'll just watch their reviews.
I honestly watch thorough reviews to get hyped for when I eventually get to play myself. I've usually forgotten by then 😂
Excellent video, job well done!
I loved this game, even though I played it a few years late in 2015. Actually, I was playing it right at the moment my current wife, then girlfriend, and I were discussing moving in together and where to take the relationship. Because of this context, the game hit me SUPER hard and I could not stop thinking about it, and rushed home to continue the story every day after work. The sequences where you have to choose to ignore or reply to text messages from the KCatherines really filled me with anxiety. Not because I myself had a Catherine with a C in my life, but because I understood that she symbolized the relative freedom I was enjoying as a single man (living in Japan no less).
For me the question came down to continuing to text with Catherine, the imaginary and unrealistic potential relationships I could fantasize about for my future, or to compromise my freedoms and commit to a relationship with my Katherine.
Spoilers, still happily married, living my own Good Ending.
PS, I think this game can be dismissed at first glance as being overly sexualizing towards women, and while that is true I think it's done for an extremely powerful narrative and thematic purpose. I also really hope Full Body builds on these complex human ideas, especially in regards to the potentially Trans character, instead of leaning into the idea that "Hey, people bought this game because it was lewd and sexy, let's do more of that."
One last point about Japan's population crisis, I think the media here really overemphasizes the herbivore men thing, and that the population on the whole isn't interested in sex. While a portion of the population is affected by these things, I really do not see it as an epidemic. If you look at statistics for other developed, post industrial economy countries like Canada, the US, Germany, etc. they all reach a point of development/education where families become smaller. This could be birth control, a desire to just a life in the stable economy, or just a lack of necessity to reproduce more than 2 children to work on farms or family businesses etc. Where those countries differ is their immigration policies, where new immigrant families significantly help the otherwise declining birth rate, not to mention labour defecit.
I think this is a far more serious problem for Japan (and one that has equally as interestingcultural and psychological barriers as Catherine's hypothesis), and it thankfully is something the government is working towards, albeit very slowly.
If you make it to the end of this comment, thanks for reading and again excellent video mate. Cheers.
@Andrew Haddow
It's a sad state of affairs when this comment of yours got Hearted. Did you ever ask yourself why it is that is always us guys who get cold feet in relationships?
Women have nothing to fear from relationships because there is no sacrifice nor risk for them. It is we men who get it all.
Now if your wife decides to eject from her relationship with you, she can without consequence. 1)You will get blamed for the failure of the relationship. 2)You will pay the alimony and/or child support. 3)You will most likely have to find a new circle of friends. 4) She will pair up with another man in no time flat while you will not be able to easily bribe another woman into your life.
Thanks Andrew - great comment, especially the last paragraph. Of course these things can get blown out of proportion by the media and it's important to keep that in mind when consuming it. I agree with you about how this game is often dismissed, and it's a shame - but the game simply wouldn't be the same without the provocative imagery. As you said, it's part and parcel of a bigger picture - also, titillation has a place in all forms of media, including games. Basic Instinct would have been a completely different movie without the sexual power it affords Sharon Stone, for instance. I'm really excited (and a little nervous) to see how these themes evolve for Full Body :)
@Beyond Ghibli. "great comment'' No, this is a terrible comment. Are you a male feminist? This game shits all over our sex as indecisive losers. And as for titillation, if you guys don't want that, all you have to do is walk outside.
Guys want to see sexy girls in their video games. Full stop. And denying this is the same as those guys who go on about ''no fap'' improving their lives.
It's just an effort on men's part to make themselves hornier and therefor more willing to work harder for the sh*t deal of relationships.
@@citycrusher9308 I don't think either of them said that they don't want sexy imagery in their games, just that it's a shame these games are dismissed just because they have it.
ruclips.net/video/JebcY12Jkkc/видео.html
Here's my critique of your video sir. maybe stop being a coward and avoiding the discussion.
That transition at 1:50 is phenomenal! 😍
Great take on the game. It is very interesting to think of Catherine being (re)released now, with the current conversations the game is very much relevant to going on today.
I personally saw Catherine as a statement about the need to know one self first, the commitment to what you truly want coming afterwards rather than the other way around. And you can't know yourself first without asking and coming to terms with some extremely uncomfortable questions that some people spend their entire lives running away from. It's why (and without giving away context or details for the sake of spoilers here) even the neutral endings where Vincent ends up with neither can be just as valid as the endings where he ends up with K or C. What it comes down to is you have to make a choice, and you can't always rely on life to steer you towards one or the other.
That piano transition alone earned my like
Let us judge ourselves, uh? That sounds like a perfect concept to develop a game, since the medium can literally give us the choice.
You should try the Shin Megami Tensei franchise, which is also by Atlus.
There is normally different alignments for you to side with, but the game never tells you if it's right or wrong, it just shows the outcome of your actions and lets you judge yourself.
I don't recommend SMTIV Apocalypse, despite having the best gameplay so date (Of this comment), the writing is way too anime bad and the alignments are unfortunately black and white.
@@LocalAnonOnTheInternet Well thank you for your recommendations, I was thinking about gettin the remake of SMT III for the switch but I'm really not into hard games so idk what I'll do
@@VashdaCrash The hardest part of the games are usually the beginning, since your options are pretty limited. Even then, the games gives you everything you need at all times to beat it, I actually don't really need to list it.
The bosses are usually challenging, but it's more of learning their moveset, strengths and weaknesses and adjusting your party for the fight. Heck, it's what makes more interesting than a lot of other jrpgs. The first REAL boss encounter stomped me so much that I end up building a team that nullilfies wind attacks, wasting all of his turns and basically kept punching him, while debuffing his Agility!
@@VashdaCrash But don't take my word for it, give it a try for yourself. If you like it, eyy! If not, I understand, it's not for everyone. At the end, you get to try it out! I do recommend Normal mode though, the easy mode DLC makes it.... way too easy, like everything doesn't even hurt you.
Wow that went into deep water, well done.
i like the fact you used Life Goes On for the credits.
Of all the songs there are in the world, it HAD TO be that one.
:D
I played Catherine a bit back in high school at a friend's house, since she had the game and the xbox 360 to play it on. I remember enjoying the game a lot, though I probably related more to Katherine than Vincent and sometimes couldn't understand why he couldn't just make a choice about his life and pick Catherine or Katherine. Now that I'm an adult I really want to revisit the game and see how my feelings towards the characters and the story may have changed, not to mention actually finish the game since I ended up having a falling out with the friend whose house I played it at before I could finish.
Have to stop watching so I can play the game first. I'll be back!
My disappointment is immeasurable, and my day is ruined
because it's not out on PC :(
Same! :)
@@Hensch It is, on Steam, albeit with its own set of issues...
Do analysis of nier Automata.
I'd love to. One of my favourite games of recent years!! I want to do a video about both of them, to be honest.
@@BeyondGhibli I think this would be great, too.
Yaaaaaaaas
@@BeyondGhibli omg. Please do this, it's such a master piece of game and it deserves so much more love.
incredible video. so much fun to watch. dont stop!!!
Thank you for making a video for one of my all-time favorites. You're quite the skilled editor as well!
Please make more videos, I enjoy your content 👍🏼👍🏼
I always knew that Catherine was a game that was much deeper than what it appeared on the surface but never really had the means of vocalising it. I really enjoyed this video, thanks :D
You're wrong btw, everyone knows Erica is best girl.
This is the correct answer
@@BeyondGhibli My Man! If not her than i'd choose the space ending hahaha.
I love your work.
I've been excited about this game for a while and I'm deeply appreciative you decided to cover Catherine.
Time to play full body now
I hope you never stop making these videos.
Katherine (whichever one is the self-motivated, commitment type) is the best girl. I have not heard of Qatherine before now.
Good analysis of the game, but I think you're ignoring an important piece of the puzzle when it comes to Japan's birthrate issues -- work culture. Japanese people have no time for romantic relationships or sex to begin with, let alone enough time to have and raise kids. Women in the workplace are also in a bad situation, with no child-raising maternity leave (only for giving birth). While herbivore men scared of independent women are certainly part of it, the lack of free time that Japanese salarypeople have is the core of the issue.
Man your videos are the best, i can't stop to watch them...
I've played this game AND watched play-through's it's one of the most therapeutic things I know... thank you for finally making a worthy review of this beautiful package.
I remember playing this game in high school and absolutely falling in love with it and your analysis made me love it even more. I never even put together how Atlus dove into the herbivore man issue through the contrasted archetypes of K and C (Katherine was always my bae tho Catherine creeped me out a little from the get go tbh). I cannot wait for the sequel to come out and pray they wrote Qatherine well and maybe tinkered with lines relating to Erica.
An excellent video Joe, I am glad to see gaming still finds it way into your publications :)
Great video. I didn't plan to buy Fullbody and played original years ago through eyes of a teenager. You've changed that, I'm definitely picking it up once it releases on PS4.
The "more logic" theory is that Rin is an angel, assexual, instead of transgender.
I'm curious to see which one ends to be.
Wow this was fantastic! Lots of insight I never thought about regarding the game's messages.
A very well written and edited script. I enjoyed it
Love your videos man, please never stop
LOVED this game so much when it came out and without even using a guide I got the best possible ending and picked K :) We'll see how Full Body turns out but I have my doubts about it, won't be getting it on launch tho since I have a ton of other games to play atm
Excellent video as always, thanks for all your hard work
WOHOOO YE AH!! I LOVE THESE TYPES OF REVIEWS AND ANALYSIS VIDS. Especially with this game, GOD ITS SO GOOD.
If that new version is good I'll have to check it out, or if not I suppose I could play the original. Either way I think I'm gonna give the game a shot sometime soon!
Played this game last year and had a blast, great video!
Another great video and some sharp editing.
Catherine will still me favorite game of all time. Through its its theme and elements you get game that not afraid to ask you hard real life question that anyone would avoid which is why I love the game
I remember playing this game at university. It git me into the persona games. I started watching your videos during covid during a time i got massively into Japanese culture media. I now live in Japan with an older Japanese girlfriend so know alot of the problems and joys dating first hand now. Playing a game about Japanese realtionships back then I never would have thought i would be in one and living in Japan, but if i could go back one thing i would tell myself is to start studying the language then.
someone please tell me the song at 1:50!
Fantastic video like always, keep it up
Another one out the park! Great job! Keep it up.
Well done video, and very good points made. Subbed!
Its great to see one of my favorite games get appreciated
God i love this game
Can someone name the jazz in this video?
I'm surprised. I was a bit leery when I saw you did a video on Catherine because I'm a huge fan of it (along with all of Atlus' other SMT franchise games) but you handled its theming with nuance, keenness, and aplomb!
That being said...I'm not sold on Qatherine being transgender (mostly because of another character)...we will see but her/their name being Qatherine with a Q makes me think she will represent a side that Catherine oddly didn't cover as an SMT game but we...shall (eagerly) see!
Falconette which?
@@ywnrnf6028 Ah...hmm...the other transgender character (trying to not spoil for those who have not played). The director said that Qatherine will cover a new perspective and since a transgender character exists, I think they'd sooner go deeper into that character if they want to flesh out transgender themes than create another one. And I think Qatherine's design and what she's shown thus far hints as an entirely different perspective (that actually follows up on Beyond Ghibli's analyses very well) than transgender.
Falconette ah. I thought it would be analogous to some sort of fourth route in an SMT game.
@@ywnrnf6028 Oh! Misunderstood your question. I personally think Qatherine does represent a typical alignment choice in SMT that Catherine the game was interestingly omitting. She has a lot of symbolism and kinda subtle marketing leaning towards it. So yeah, I think it would be analogous.
Falconette sorry for being vague.
Hey so when are we gonna see the Full Body review? Can't wait to see your take on it.
Fantastic video , as always.
Ffs almost every video you release makes me go and watch something new, you're gonna bleed me dry if I need to start buying games too
Hahaha - apologies :P At least this one can be found for relatively cheap ;)
DoMayaPrime this is too relatable
This video is absolutely fantastic. I love this game and always knew it was deep, but you put a spin on it by mentioning Japan's current issues regarding relationships.
Amazing...as always. Thank you.
Gosh, this game was so unique in all the right ways.
Thanks, I've seen other videos that review this game, but none of them explained the Herbivore aspect of the game. People in Japan are not having children, and not getting married because life is to hard. Men are not avoiding sex because they are Herbivore men, but because they are not stupid dokeys chasing the carrot on a string. Sex is great, but not worth becoming a Salaryman. Salary men do little more than work, and sleep enough to repeat the process until they die. Women in Japan don't get married because they want more than being a house slave producing the next generation of workers. People just want a life, with a bit joy in it. I have to thank you for pointing out how offensive this game is. Thanks again.
Thank you for this, work culture is the core of the problem. Most Japanese salarymen don't have time to do anything BUT work and hang out with coworkers in work-mandated forced fun. They don't feel like they have time for relationships.
Whatever I do, I cannot forget the bar music in the game.
I played fullbody before llaying the original on steam. After playing the original I must say i prefer it. I think rin is a fantastic character but at the same time they don't feel like they fit the world or the themes. One of the biggest parts if the story is vincents inability to saying anything keeping everything bottled up but when rin appears that just disappears completely but only in the new scenes. I appreciate the idea if rin being a comfort for Vincent but i feel that comfort can't exist without diminishing the stroy
I may have liked the video, but that's because it was a fantastic analysis. I think K is best girl.
W0W, the first.
I enjoyed your analysis of Catherine. I never played the game before, but I'm looking forward to playing Catherine: Full Body when it comes out in the West. Hopefully you will do a video on one of my favorite games called Persona 5. I still think that Catherine is the best girl.
I would love to do a video on the modern trilogy of Persona games at some point!
Nice
This is a cool idea
I'm not sure you can apply that all are complex people when Catherine might not even exist. Nor can you call the decisions morally ambiguous when the endings suggest they're not.
First reaction: WTF is this ?!?
I have to admit i didnt know this game. Seems weird and brilliant.
Anyway, good quality content, thanks ^^/
OffTopic question, the list of your channel show me 25 video total (02/11/2019) is that correct?
If so.. stop slacking around and get to work!!! è.é!
want more...
Dabbled in this game a little about a year ago (Catherine fullbody) but had to much going on in other ventures in order to give the game the proper attention or dedication needed to get the most out of it and only got a couple hours in despite liking it, both it puzzles mechanic and cut scenes thou I didn't seem to grasp the parts in between those well enough, like controlling Vincent in the bar and texting or get what they were going for but actually playing persona 5 helped me better understand those parts like relationship building and makes me want to jump into Catherine again (pun very much intended ) especially now knowing the theme of Japanese herbivore men and there intimidation of females and yearn for submissive but also very forward girls who inniceate the sex but also are sure not to be to forceful in what the relationship terms are or their future together (basically not having to face a possible rejection in being the initiator or commit to them just in case another girl throws themselves at them and doesnt have to feel guilty ) putting unrealistic expectations on females who have taken advantage of this surplus of beta males by advancing their positions in society and in the workforce as well but at the cost of romantic relationships with strong take charge guys or even a chance at the herbivore since they are to scared to even talk to them and rather watch porn and prosper in other factors of life
Beautiful
Great, another video from you
This game is what got me to the persona universe it's so GOOD
Man, I remember watching a Let’s Play of Catherine bc I didn’t have a PS3 at the time. Now that my PS3 is sadly out of commission, I should see if the original is on the PSN for PS4. :|a
Wow. I'd love to hear your thoughts on silenthill
The puzzles in that game gave me nightmares.
im getting the new Catherine when its comes out
Love Catherine and await the new one!
"It looks like Vincent might be getting a trans love interest"
H A H
Does Vincent’s shirt say “Rave” or ....?
alguém tem q conseguir legendar todos os videos dele em português BR.
This is great
It’s amazing that this game came from some developers just ducking around to find a visual style for Persona 5
2:25 He was not alone on that night - he was, and always is at that bar, with his friends. It's only after his friends leave, and he stays behind, that Catherine appears. The way you phrased it makes it seem like he intended to go there alone from the start, and that's not what happened. Did not expect such a simple fact to be messed up :x
Does anyone know the track used at 1:50
It's not available in the game OST. Please It's beautiful and I want to know so badly. Thanks.
Have you found it yet dude?
@@snax488 nope
Apologies! It's called 'One Night in Stuntney', we made it specifically for this video and it can be found here :
discobible.com/track/one-night-in-stuntney
@@BeyondGhibli thank you
The Third - why I'm acting like this is a neccessary comment?! -.-'
I played the game and loved it but i never knew it was an allegory for the Population crisis in Japan. You always learn something new everyday X3 I too cannot wait to get the reboot extended game and see what they added. Plus I really hope the Golden Playhouse becomes a staple for NEW IP's Atlus is willing to take a chance on.
Interesting 🧐
such an underrated game deserves more recognition, im kinda worried about the changes catherine full body will have on story the tho, weird how the story will progress with another girl.
I have the same anxiety about Full Body - Catherine felt very 'complete' when I replayed it for the video, it didn't feel like there was much room to slot a third potential love interest in between the others. That's why I have a feeling this will almost be a sequel rather than a remake - expanded massively to give the game room to develop another main character. Either way, I can't wait to see how its all handled.
@@BeyondGhibli yeah I played through to get all the endings and none of them disappoint, but this new character feels like it will transform the game to something else man, the game is very clear how Katherine and Catherine are on two ends of a spectrum, I'm just really buzzing to see how it will change and if it misses the mark, I hope not. Anyways, great content as always 👍.
just bought it! haha
Want to hear your take on persona
Anouther fantastic video, if only other commentators had the deft touch and insight displayed in your videos Anime would have its place in the west as the art form it is.
It looks like other commenters have some problem against romantic relationships. I mean, I think you don't need to have one to be happy, but I don't think it is a cancer for society or something either.
I liked the game so much that I perfected every stage, got all endings and rescued all men. But I don't know whether or not to get full body. I'm probably gonna wait and see how good the vita Version will be, and if it can hold up, I might give it a chance.
I'm curious. How do you ''save'' the men in this game? What do you get them to do?
@@citycrusher9308 you can see how in the video. They stand around in between the tower sections and can be talked to. And if you do, you can give them advice on their current Situation. That is pretty much all you have to do, if I remember correctly. Give them the wrong advice and they might die...
@Ryudin Are there girl sheep that you talk to and convince to get into relationships?
Huh. Now I have a better idea of why I found the freedom ending being the best.
What happened to the tales from earthsea video?
It got banned worldwide because of some overly long cuts. Going to reupload a new version sometime soon with smarter editing.
@@BeyondGhibli Oh darn. Sorry to hear that it got banned.
@@BeyondGhibli Should be covered under Fair Use, isn't it? "Purposes of review" and all that? Check out the disclaimer at the start of many Your Movie Sucks videos, for example.
@Beyond Ghibli
So you felt no embarrassment showing this anti male Game? The women of Japan are the ones rejecting men, marriage and babies. Yet, as usual, the men get the blame for the problem even though they have no control over the situation.
@Beyond Ghibli
Hello? Are you there? You have no reply to this? The welfare of the modern man is at stake. This is too important to ignore.
love this game, more than just a Persona5 tech demo (compare persona 4 models to 5 then add catherines inbetween), but i can only play japan dub for i do not enjoy troy baker as a lead anymore, gonna make death stranding a toughy...
Wow an american i miss out on that struggle.makes it an even better game
This hits a bit too close to home... getting a healthy relationship has to be the hardest and most immensly frustrating challange of my life yet.
But well i guess i got a lot of time since i'm only 20 :^)
Jesus Christ, what I'm hearing from guys. Your generation is going to be eaten alive with that attitude.
You guys have to bribe women into relationships (just like previous generations), But you can't. You don't have enough wealth and status. Women deselect men who don't out perform them. And you are going to let your society blame you for things outside of your control?
If I were you, I'd give society the middle finger.
Hensch Women don't love men.
Wait til you’re 33, kid
kids under 20 should not be dating. Period.
@Brush Saint E.
Women and society aren't going to have any more respect for him at 33.
I think a lot of mens reservations about marriage is the fact that court systems, alimony payments, and child custody and skewed drastically in favorable of women. Women initiate over 70% of marriages and the second highest reason is....boredom. There's also a toxic notion that casual sex is perfectly fine and doesn't/shouldn't have negative consequences for women. But it does....and I can only assume it always will. When willingness to has sex outside of marriage rises marriage rates will continue to lower. Putting effort into a 'boring' marriage needs to take place on BOTH sides. Also as young women start to outearn young men maybe women should start to take the 'lead' role in provider and accept that. It's not a bad thing and women treat it like if their husband doesn't ear equal or more that this somehow lowers them as a husband. It doesn't and shouldn't.
~Sincerely a 23 yr old woman
I like Catherine's ending more than Catherine the girl, the second best would be going to space, and the marriage was nice.
Thank you for a fascinating insight into a game I never heard of. The quality of your work is above most production works. The Japanese society has been chasing success to an unhealthy degree and it is costing them dearly. American society is not very healthy in a totally different way but suffers some of the same effects against males.
Honor Harrington.
Of course males are suffering over here too. Men have no rights in the relationship and nothing to gain from it.
One of my favorite games. Felt like a revelation when I first played it. I love the vibe, the music, the trivia on alcohol, the allegorical horror parts. I feel like almost no one I know talks about this game. Loving this video.
This is what I said some time ago and I still believe it to be true. So I will be posting it here word per word.
Its their own culture that is destroying them ironically and sadly. How they treat their own workers in the job market is a holdover from the times there were samurai, shoguns and lords. The unisex baths which perpetuates their own lust problem within their culture comes from the feudal era as a means of protection from assasination attempts by guests, same reason why table manners developed in Europe, and like table manners, it was only available to the social elite, the lords, the shoguns and the emperors. Unlike table manners, it has little place in modern society as it only furthers their lust problem and demoralize them as a people. This ties into their population problem as well. Because why would people marry, have children, and form lasting relationships if they are never going to be home? And the children that are born grow up to be very bitter and hateful, and at the same time, they have become so bitter that they have become wimps and can't stand up for themselves, or worse yet, they won't. Add this with their lust problem, as they are obsessed with women's private parts and can't seem to be able to see them as people, it results in more and more people retreating into twisted fantasies, which is only highlighted and made worse by the modern era. The result is a slow death of a culture, all because it's residents refuse to update it. Their pride comes back to bite them, their pride doesn't let them acknowledge their own cultural issues, nor listen to outside forces telling them that there is a problem. They absolutely hate it, they don't like Christianity because it points out everything wrong with their culture, and very easily too. And if it isn't pride, then its because of fear and crafted stereotypes. All this comes together to form a dying culture that insists in destroying itself.
lets just ignore rinns story plz
I think it would of been more subversive and interesting if the 30 year old Catherine was the nymph and the younger one was more commitment driven.
That kind of misses the point though (at least the point presented in this video)
You know alot of us want people to be treated decently regardless of class or creed and we are NOT feminists.
If you're a woman then you're feminist by default.