Add Outlet To Unfinished Basement Or Garage
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- Опубликовано: 25 дек 2023
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I will walk you through how I added a new circuit to an unfinished basement. The circuit will consist of 4 outlets and include GFCI protection. We will also go through the use of conduit and how to handle grounding which actually could be easier than you think.
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I was taught , back in the 70’s, to always use pan head screws when mounting boxes to avoid sharp edges on the heads of other types of screws that could cut the insulation. Also to ALWAYS add the green insulated ground wire, especially in damp areas, because the conduit connectors could loosen, rust or corrode and cause a high impedance ground system. Also if the box cover screws are loosened or removed, the ground is lost! Better safe than sorry! Don’t cut corners! I guess I had a good teacher!
I agree w Bob, if that locking nut on the inside of the AC panel doesn't bite into the manufacture's finish on the panel, you would have a ground continuity issue. Green wire ground is best.
Tbbbbbt! (fart noise)
I saw some ''pro'' work where the guy had 'grounded' the EMT by running a 10' length of bare ground wire a few feet into the conduit. Folded it over to increase the contact area. Did that at each end of a 60' run.
Only reason it got noticed was that people were getting bit.
There's no issue with properly installed EMT fittings and rust, corrosion, or just magically loosening. EMT is installed outdoors all the time so an indoor potentially damp area is of no concern. I learned to install EMT properly when I first started and to this day I don't run wire grounds unless there's a particular reason to do so. The NEC lists 14 types of grounding conductors; only 1 of the 14 is a wire type conductor.
@@bobhall5893 That's why, on painted boxes and cabinets, the NEC requires that the paint be removed to expose bare metal. Takes a wire brush in a cordless drill about 10 seconds to get it done.
Run the ground. You’re there already. If foregoing the ground wire, at the very least bond the receptacles to the 1900 boxes. The receptacles will be grounded once mounted, but bonding them to the box is a sure fire way to make sure the ground will never be a failure point. Just my 2 cents
Thanks for the feedback.
I agree. I don't know NEC, but I used to plan wiring inside medical equipment and had to follow IEC-60601. One of the things that my engineers drilled into my head (so they didn't have to redo my ground path planning) was to never rely on a mechanical connection for grounding. Always intentionally supply a dedicated grounding path. OK... I expect that electrical standards for medical devices are a lot more stringent than housing codes. But for such a short and easy run, put in the dedicated grounding path just for good measure.
@@Sembazuru EMT is a dedicated grounding path. Isn't a ground screw also a mechanical connection?
@@pld8993 If the only thing a ground screw is doing is connecting a ground, that isn't considered a mechanical connection for what I was talking about because the ground screw's function isn't to hold mechanical things together. Mechanical connections would be things like PCB mounting screws and standoffs, screws holding panels onto boxes, outlet mounting screws, conduit set screws, etc. Basically anything that is expected to hold things together under mechanical load and/or vibration. A wire not under tension isn't enough load to be considered a mechanical load. Even conduit that is supported on a wall to regulations will be seeing mechanical stresses at the connection to the electrical boxes as the conduit stretches and contracts due to changing temperatures.
@@Sembazuru So changes in temperature or ambient vibration affect the conduit but not the ground screw connection within a box that's connected to that conduit? Assuming an equal amount of temperature change, copper and aluminum are subject to greater levels of expansion and contraction than steel. Using your own description of a mechanical connection, a ground screw absolutely falls into that category. FYI, electrical engineers aren't automatically electricians (though many believe that they are) and should not be trusted to know what they're talking about when it comes to the electrical trade unless they are ALSO electricians. Conduit systems, when installed properly, are more than sufficient as EGCs and while running a wire type EGC isn't wrong, it's usually unnecessarily redundant.
Tip for tapcons... I always have a spool of bare galvanized wire handy (18-16GA). Just before you put the tapcon in, take a piece twice the depth of the hole plus an extra inch and double it over. Insert it into the hole leaving about 1/2" exposed and bend over the extra, then drive the tapcon in. It helps make it bite even better and especially in loose holes or brittle concrete.
I would also always run the green ground wire for any circuit in conduit. You never know if the conduit/connections/screws become loose over time and cause bad bonding.
The tip can be a lifesaver if your hole is a bit loose 💯 Thanks for the feedback!
some guys save the ends snipped from zip-ties and use them in concrete holes for extra bite.
@@EverydayHomeRepairsrun the green and use isolated ground spec grade 20 amp outlets
That works so well! Costs almost nothing and holds tightly.
@@karlwithak. Yup, tapcons have never worked for me. Pretty much anything else holds better, esp. if there is any kind of movement - like a plug - I'd never use them for that.
Thanks for the video - Journeyperson Electrician and a few comments: 1) Conduit should have offsets at the boxes so it is against the wall, and be strapped (fastened) per code. 2) A ground wire from the box to the receptacles is code here, but I would suggest it is best practice even it it is not where one is located. Certainly there is no harm having a ground wire in the conduit as well, although not required per the codes I am aware of.
conduit does not need offsets per code as long as the pipe hanger aka Minis. as well call them are used to support the pipe. i would run a ground vice using the box and emt as a ground. it is required where i am located.
@@marshal1x Not required, but looks better and more professional.
Non electrician and thought the same regarding a ground wire, since I'd trust a "protected" wire over the conduit on a painted panel (granted, it's probably "ok" mechanically). I feel that extra grounding is safer than trusting the conduit connections alone. It also seems that Romex IS allowed from a "master electricians" video I just watched, in this instance.
What about minis? Specifically designed to be away from the wall
All u haters
Always dielectric grease on connections 😐
To be clear - While it is ideal to use individual conductors, it is NOT required by NEC. As long as there is enough room (per the NEC table) inside the conduit, you are allowed to use NM (sheathed) wire.
Admittedly I always believed it was not propper too but could not see changing back and fourth going to islands , so I ran oversized conduits and finally just looked it up , then asked an inspector if I missed something and they were just letting it slide ... nope, perfectly legal
The problem is the NEC table examines conductors by their diameter and the NM cable has to be treated as one giant conductor, because it is explicitly said as such in NFPA 70 Chapter 9, Paragraph #9, which reads:
"A multi-conductor cable, optical fiber cable, or flexible cord of two or more conductors shall be treated as a single conductor for calculating percentage conduit or tubing fill area. For cables that have elliptical cross sections, the cross-sectional area calculation shall be based on using the major diameter of the ellipse as a circle diameter."
As NM is an elliptical cable it gets classified as if it were a massive circular conductor, which means NM-b cable needs an unusually massive conduit. After working through Chapter 9 Article 358, the conduit size for single 14/2 gauge NM cables with ground, each 9mm across, needs to be 3/4 inches. 12/3 cable (12.5mm across) needs 1 inch conduit. The same 15 amp / 14 gague circuit in THNN conductors would fit 7 times in a 1/2" conduit (7 hots, 7 neutrals, and using the tube as ground for all 7 circuits), and the same multi-wire branch 20 amp circuit would fit three times in a 1/2 conduit (6 hots, 3 neutrals, tube as ground) for a total of 6 20-amp 120 volt circuits.
One of the other common issues with NM-B inside conduit is you may be using conduit because of a wet location. NM-B isn't allowed here at all, but THNN is.
Finally, stripping the cables out of the NM-B jacket is a bad idea because only the jacket has the "NM-B type" listing and Underwriters Laboratory certification printed on it. The cables inside have no type listing; your inspector will consider this "non-listed cable" even if its comparable to THNN type cable. Do I care? No. Does your inspector? Probably.
@@MrOpinionCantSignIn You do where I live. It used to be okay to use the conduit as a path to back ground, but not any more. NM cable in conduit is also no longer allowed anymore. That can vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but we can't do it anymore. We also cannot strip back MC and go from MC to EMT and run the wire in the MC in EMT. The MC manufacturers no longer stamp the wires inside the MC with the type & ratings so that makes it illegal now. The wires have to have the 600VW rating, the type of insulation, etc. marked every 2 feet, or you can't use it. Back in the 20th century the wires inside MC cable were all marked like 600WV spool wire. NAFTA screwed that all up.
@@richt5986 Completely wrong. The jacket on NM-B is not a raceway; NM-B is a multi-conductor cable. Entirely separate definition in code. Furthermore, you cannot strip the conductors out of NM-B. They are not labeled or required to be THHN or XHHW. This is an immediate inspection fail for using an unlisted cable.
@@richt5986 You wrote three sentences, every one of them is incorrect.
The reason a grounding pigtail is needed is so that if the device is removed from contact with the metal box, it will still be bonded. With the raised covers it is possible to remove the cover with the devices leaving both the metal cover and the devices unbonded.
Sort of. If the receps were riveted to the cover, no grounding pigtail necessary. The way he did it, pigtail required.
@@pld8993 Never seen one riveted. At the very least he should have bonded to the box even if he is using the conduit as a ground.
@@Sparkeycarp Doesn't have to be rivets, that's one example, but it has to be something permanent that is not removable. Pigtails are certainly easier. I've never riveted one either but I did a job long ago that spec'd permanent fasteners on cover mounted devices. I don't remember exactly what we used but they were some type of irreversible screws.
True
I'm glad you used your outlet tester. Now run the test again after removing the cover screws.
Spend the $little and add the green insulated ground wire.
Exactly what I thought. With the cover removed the receptacles and anything plugged into them are no longer grounded.
Electricians I worked with always ran the green (ground) lead. Yes, your ground can be through the emt but it can be interrupted by some schmuck. Having the ground lead is a safety device.
Agree cheap insurance that there will always be an uninterrupted ground to the panel.
Grounding by EMT is not allowed.
Another reason to run a dedicated earth is the the EMT could suffer from corrosion many years into the future causing a bad earth.
The code requires a ground wire. Conduit grounding is no longer allowed.@@johnspathonis1078
The guy that made the video is the schmuck.
For the small incremental cost and time, I always run a separate ground wire. Never had an issue, and the local inspector agrees with me.
Actually, it has been required per NEC for over 30 years , ever since an inspectir got zapped due to a sepperated conduit
@@MrOpinionCantSignIn That is NOT true. EMT (electrical metallic tubing used here) and other metallic conduits are acceptable for grounding according to the National Electrical Code.
@@MrOpinionCantSignIn Not true. Conduit EGC is legal.
@@whiggins101 Yup. A ground is ground. I have been splicing high voltage PILC cable for 40 years, the lead sheave acts as ground, with an occasional twisted #10 wire going to the ground tree in the manhole.
if a raceway is over 18” it requires a means of support. i.e. a strap or that conduit hanger you mentioned. over 18 inches, and you need to strap every 10 feet and within 3 feet of each termination.
Intervals not to exceed 10 feet according to 2023 N.E.C 358.30. Cmon baby boy
@@christiansantos8904 did the nix the within 3 feet of a termination in 2023? if not, you just didn’t read my whole comment lmfao
The EMT needs to be secured within 3 feet of a box. The 18" nipple rule for strapping was removed years ago. Technically any length of conduit needs a strap.
EMT shall be securely fastened in place at intervals not to exceed 3 m (10 ft). In addition, each EMT run between termination points shall be securely fastened within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination.
@@BackyardMaine basically, with only a 6 ft run there's no additional support needed between boxes.
Scott, once more. At the 4:45second mark you show a minerallac. These ARE required by the National Electrical Code (NEC) within 3' feet of every box. This means you are short three of them. One needs to be used between the service and the first box, and two more between the second two boxes. If you had just used a 5 foot piece of pipe for your second pipe you could have gotten by with just one in the center. Evan jsu cutting your pipe one inch short of 6 feet would have allowed you to use one minie (as we call them).
I never thought of using minies to strap the EMT down. Gotta say, it's rather ingenious, as you avoid putting in a box offset. I'll have to remember that. I don't understand why he showed the minnies, but didn't use them. So odd.
Because the first section is not more than 3', no strap required there. The second section is 6' so one strap dead center covers it. Only 1 strap/mini needed to make the conduit code compliant.
@@karlwithak. Funny sarcasm.
@@karlwithak. Yeah, what you described is exactly how someone who has no idea what they're doing would do it. Would the circuit work when you plug something in? Sure, just as running a single black wire and a single white wire and no ground wire and leaving them dangling along the floor would work. Just because it works that doesn't mean it's done correctly or safely.
@@karlwithak. No idea what you’re talking about. But again, that was some funny shit you posted on how a DIY fool fixes wiring issues. LOL! 😂
I'm not an electrician, but have done electrical training and code IS to ground all metal electrical boxes.
only if using eccentrics on the box.
Genuinely, big thanks to the electricians commenting. I've got a list of stuff to check in my basement now.
I can't count the number of emt screws I've tightened on old houses over the years. I always run a separate ground. It's quick, easy, cheap and is an unbroken-by-loose-screws piece of protection. I see by reading comments, that I'm in good company on this subject. Another point I'm curious about is the ring on your left hand: if it is metallic, you're taking a risk. I learned the hard way connecting 4/0 cable to bus-bars in an 800 amp DC can...my arm was straightened so hard I was knocked away from the can.
It looks like a silicone ring on his finger, alot of public safety personnel use those inplace of their metal wedding band.
It's not cheap anymore
@@richt5986 My wife says it's cheaper than a funeral.
@@choimdachoim9491 definitely
All metal surfaces must be grounded with grounded wire can handle the short circuit current. Do not trust the conduit , it can brake or louse connection can put lives to the danger. Run the grounding wire .
Nice looking install. I enjoy your non rambling explanations in all your videos. Am learning a lot. I’m a retired aircraft electrician and I could bore you to tears about airplanes, but I don’t know a whole heck of a lot about household or industrial wiring.
Good critiques and cautionary comments. I always use electrical tape to cover all exposed receptacle connection screws. My first boss was too cheap to buy tape, so I always had my own. Ground wire, tape and sleep easy...
Tape not necessary. It will leave a messy residue on the receptacle. It will make it more difficult to work with in the future.
There are many people who don’t know how to properly use a wire nut, and for them, the Wago is a good choice to help make an acceptable installation. Most modern THHN wire has multiple designations, including for wet and damp environments. It’s easier for the wire manufacturer to produce one wire listed for all applications, than to make separate wires as they used to years ago. It is important to remember that the use of a raceway listed for a wet and damp environment does not create a dry environment inside the raceway. In a wet and damp environment, all components must be appropriately listed for that environment.
the wage will fail in time the weren't not so much especially when you twist the wires together
I do not trust, and would not use a WAGO. In order to make good connections, twist the wires together with you lineman's pliers, clip off the excess, and install the PROPER wire nut. WAGO might work for your Lionel train set, but I would not trust then with line voltage.
@karlwithak
That will work inside under dry condition .
But as electrician you will lost your insurance and as a homeowner possible too.
You can do also old edison style: line up a bunch of nails and wrap 2 blank cables around.
Electrician here. While you said it was just best practice, there is nothing against code running NM cable in conduit like in your thumbnail. You do have to follow cable fill requirements in Chapter 9, however. The problem most people make is stripping the jacket off and just using the wires inside. Unlike MC or spooled wire, the conductors inside NM cable are not labled with their insulation class or any other required information, and not permitted to be run in conduit without the jacket. You used solid wire, so I hope you didnt strip the romex and use it for this reason. While it is true EMT is a permitted EGC in 250.122, you are relying on the set screws and locknuts being tight for that grounding and bonding purpose. They can loosen over time, so its not a bad idea to pull a wire type EGC. Also, code has NO prohibition for using a bare grounding conductor for this installation.
Totally agree. Best practice is to run grounding if you can. Trusting "BONDED" grounding is a dice roll at best as stated. Equipotential for all of your circuits is key, heaven forbid a child or anyone else plug something in on a loose "BONDED" box and then when finished noticed this and used their one hand to support the box and the other to remove the plug. The possibility of a fault that "EXPOSES" itself could be very dangerous.
Does the conduit need to be metal or can you use the plastic conduit for a basement run like this?
@@frankesposito1399 pvc sch 40 or 80 would also be acceptable
No conduit support straps or mini’s. When you see “bonded grounding” fail you will always pull a ground after!
And why strip nm when you can pull thhn.
Teach the real way to do things.
@@nickpckles8902 you cant strip the NM, thats my point. I agree, pull THHN. I was simply stating it is code compliant to use NM in conduit.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I believe a grounding conductor that makes a bond to each metal box needs to be present to satisfy code in this particular arrangement. The set screw on the conduit connectors may loosen or go missing which results in poor continuity as an EGC over time. But of course, this is permissible by code. However, I believe having the conduit and boxes as an EGC is not enough. There needs to be bonding jumpers from those types of box cover plates to the inside of the 4x4 boxes.
NEC 250.148 Continuity of Equipment Grounding Conductors and Attachment in Boxes.
If circuit conductors are spliced within a box or terminated on equipment within or supported by a box, all wire-type equipment grounding conductor(s) associated with any of those circuit conductors shall be connected within the box or to the box in accordance with 250.8 and 250.148(A) through (D)
(C) Metal Boxes. A connection used for no other purpose shall be made between the metal box and the equipment grounding conductor(s) in accordance with 250.8
NEC 250.8 Connection of Grounding and Bonding Equipment.
(A)Permitted Methods. Equipment grounding conductors, grounding electrode conductors, and bonding jumpers shall be connected by one or more of the following means:
(1)Listed pressure connectors
(2)Terminal bars
(3)Pressure connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment
(4)Exothermic welding process
(5)Machine screw-type fasteners that engage not less than two threads or are secured with a nut
(6)Thread-forming machine screws that engage not less than two threads in the enclosure
(7)Connections that are part of a listed assembly
(8)Other listed means
(B)Methods Not Permitted. Connection devices or fittings that depend solely on solder shall not be used.
The screw or locknut loosening over time could happen but I don't think that potential failure would make the grounding through conduit against code. Easy enough to run another ground wire for triple protection. Currently this circuit is protected by the conduit providing equipment ground and also the GFCI protection starting at the first outlet. Thanks for the feedback.
@@EverydayHomeRepairs as with anything, check with your jurisdiction. Just because the Code allows for something does not mean your local inspector will allow it. If we use EMT in our area, we must run a grounding conductor and it must be bonded to the junction box and the device.
@@TwilightxKnight13 Agreed, best to ring the inspector to avoid any rework. Thanks for the feedback.
@@EverydayHomeRepairs metallic boxes require bonding. I do not think there are any exceptions. You can purchase a bag or box of pre-loaded pigtails specifically for this purpose.
@@edmessina8392. If EMT is the grounding system to metal boxes, and the device (receptacle) has an approved grounding clip on one of the attachment points, then the pigtail is not required from the receptacle to the back of the box. If the receptacle does not have the required clip, then the pigtail would have to be installed from receptacle to the box.
According to NEC 358.30(A) "EMT shall be securely fastened in place at intervals not to exceed 3 m (10 ft). In addition, each EMT run between termination points shall be securely fastened within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination." Your video showed that you had the EMT straps, you should install these before walking away from your project.
You are correct about the grounding: according to NEC 358.60 "EMT shall be permitted as an equipment grounding conductor." But, again, your video showed that you had the grounding pigtails. Using the pigtails and an actual equipment grounding conductor from the outlets to the panel would cost a couple of dollars and a couple of minutes. It would also add protection, and help "future proof" an installation (NEC generally becomes MORE restrictive over the years, not LESS).
Yeah, should have added the 2 hangers between the boxes. Thanks for the feedback!
@@EverydayHomeRepairs And the pigtails between the devices and the box. A loose plate = loose grounding to the devices.
I haven’t seen or installed a conduit run to a panel without a separate ground wire since the late 1970’s, thought they settled that a long time ago. If the conduit rusts out or becomes disconnected from the conduit connectors along the run you would lose the ground entirely (and trust me, it happens more often than one might think).
I have never seen emt rust out inside a building. Seen it maybe twice & both were installed so the emt was touching the earth
It made me uncomfortable too. I'd rather spend the extra on a real ground wire.
@@greggpurviance7252 wish I could attach photos to the comments here, I’d show you all of the emt that’s rotted out in my basement right now. When I installed it 27 years ago I kicked offsets on all the boxes and strapped it to the cinderblock walls with emt straps. Now all these years later it’s rusted through on all the drops and most of the laterals because the basement walls tend to be a bit damp. Eventually I’ll change it all out to pvc but for now it’s ok because it has a separate ground conductor and gfci protected devices. I also see plenty of conduit hanging loose with the connector sleeves disconnected at work when other shops need to move it out of the way to do plumbing / woodwork / masonry repair. They don’t think twice about sliding conduit apart and leaving it that way which is another reason why I would never run conduit without a ground wire, you never know what kind of idiot is going to mess with it after you’re done.
@@quademasters249 the emt is a real ground
I deal with large ~50 year old buildings that used conduit as EGC and it’s a total pain. It fails enough that I’ll never call it reliable. With long runs buried in building walls, it’s not practical to fix, it’s do a new run instead.
When it comes to bonding and equipment grounding conductors (egc's), the system should be designed such that a single point of failure does not degrade the integrity of the system.
In order to ensure this, it must be understood that bonding and egc's are two different things. Bonding is intended to tie all metal surfaces together to guarantee that they are all at the same electrical potential in order to prevent a potential difference between adjacent metal surfaces that can cause a shock or an electrocution should someone inadvertently complete circuit between them. The egc is intended to provide a dedicated conductor to carry electrical fault current back to the source to complete the circuit and instantly trip the overcurrent protection to de-energize the circuit in order to reduce the risk of fire and electrocution. Tying the bonding system to the egc, ensures that an electrical fault on the bonding system will trip the overcurrent protection and de-energize the circuit.
Relying on the bonding system to act as the egc significantly increases the risk that a high resistance connection will develop over time either through corrosion issues, loosening of bonding screws, or other potential ways that the bonding can degrade or fail. Having a dedicated egc ensures that the fault current path is not reliant on the state of repair of the bonding system. It further ensures that each metal box and fixture are independently bonded to each other at the main panel through their respective egc's. Even if the emt bonding screws come loose or individual bonding connections become compromised, each box and fixture will still remain bonded to all the other boxes and fixtures through their respective egc's. In addition, in the case of emt, even if one end has its bonding compromised, the other end can maintain the bond and keep the conduit at the same potential. Such a design ensures system reliability in the presence of a single point of failure.
Of course, you can have bonding failures at both ends of the emt, but, that would be 2 points of failure, and attempting to design a system that remains reliable in the presence of any 2 points of failure is nearly impossible, and even if possible is so expensive that it becomes unaffordable. Also, in order for the emt whose bonding is compromised at both ends to become energized, the wires within would need to be compromised, which may happen if a wire was skinned during the pull, or during subsequent maintenance or repair activities, but that would be a 3rd point of failure.
In the case of your installation, a single point of failure compromises the system to save the cost of a bit of wire. It's a very bad design.
Thanks for the feedback Brian. I agree adding a ground wire would be a better design.
But not required @@EverydayHomeRepairs
@@donl1410 Whether or not it's required depends on the electrical inspector. The code is not the final authority, the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ) is the final authority. Since the electrical inspector is the AHJ, they are free to reject the code provision in this circumstance and require a dedicated egc. There is little you would be able to do about it since the inspector wouldn't be requiring you to violate the code or do something that reduces the reliability or drastically increases the cost of the installation. You could argue with the inspector and cite the code and maybe they would change their mind and accept it, but I doubt it. Of course, you might get an inspector who's OK with it, but why take the risk over $2 worth of wire and a few minutes of install time? While theoretically you can appeal a rejection, any such appeal will almost certainly be rejected since the cost is negligible and it improves the safety reliability of the system.
The AHJ is not necessarily the inspector, but the rule making body that interprets the code for the area, and has written documented code amendments. If the area, city, county, or state has amended the NEC, to state, in this case an EGC shall be installed in all raceways, then I agree with it. The electrical inspector can not, or should not be able to make up his own rules to the way he or she thinks it should be done. I have questioned inspectors on different points over the years , when I new the answer, and have generally been able to resolve the issue in the field, At one point I did take an issue to the head building official and the problem was satisfactorily resolved in his office without further necessary action. There are some primitive rejoins that do not require any licensing where the inspector does his own interpretation, I agree, Problems usually arise when nebulous articles of the NEC come forth. In which case, I contact the the AHJ official to get their interpretation, so we all can be on the same page, before proceeding. What probably would have made both your 'narrative' and the one I'm writing unnecessary, would have been to have me written, "But not necessary by the NEC".@@briankolley3550
@@donl1410 I wouldn't agree that the inspector requiring an egc would be making up the rules, I would interpret it as the inspector having concerns about the likelihood of the bonding being maintained over time and wanting the higher standard to be met. In this particular case, if the inspector required an egc to be run, I seriously doubt you would even appeal it given that it would cost you way more in time to appeal than it would to just install it and be done with it. However, if the situation were such that utlizing the provision results in a large cost savings on a much larger project, then appealing the decision may be the better way to go. Also, I agree that having a conversation with the inspector can be beneficial in most cases provided that you are knowlegeable about the code and have high quality workmanship. However, if the inspector knows that the homeowner is doing the work they are going to come to the site prepared for a disagreement and such a conversation may not go well. I've had inspectors express great relief that the work was done so well and that they had geared themselves up for an argument. An inspector in that state of mind dealing with a non-expert homeowner may not be the best combination. That being said, high quality workmanship goes a long way with inspectors.
As far as us writing these long narratives, I think it's useful to have these conversations because people who don't understand why things are in the code have a chance to learn a little bit.
You never drill holes in the mortar of the masonry wall. You always mount into the block.
And that was the only question I had about this otherwise excellent (and for me, timely) presentation.
(And I won a bunch of blue ribbons for demonstrating at the county fair as a kid in 4-H. So if that doesn't make me an expert...)
: )
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂 4H memories... I got beat by a gurl at the milking competition @@ChuckD59
😂
@@ChuckD59BUT did you stay in a Holiday Inn Express? 😜😎😇 Tim in northern TN
@@CliffsideStables Nope, lived nearby. But did better than the kids who slept in the stables with their animals.
Always pull a ground
Don't drill into mortar for anything
Use a hacksaw, plumber's pipe cutters run the possibility of decreasing interior diameter, which is a code violation
Supports are needed within 3ft of the box
Don't feed wire toward the panel
Bend boxsets and use one hole straps instead of using Mae Wests
Thanks for the feedback.
Using one hole straps against block basement walls increases the chance of dampness against the emt, no matter the outside barrier. Yes, never use plumbers pipe cutter on emt
Why do you feed wire away from the panel?
@@dave7038 don't want to poke wire into hot breaker, on the other hand pushing wire FROM a hot panel with your hand next to hot breaker is probably just as bad
I cringed when I saw that! @@greggpurviance7252
Nice, thanks! I never knew about the load side of the GFI's.
I believe you need to secure conduit within 3 feet of a box. Thought 3/4”was overkill, but certainly sexy and helpful if you are running some 10 awg down the line for a future dryer outlet. NM is not
Illegal in EMT, and my preference is to run a green wire as it’s not that far and it’s an extra safety margin IMO. I love metal BTW as it looks awesome. Nice presentation.
That's correct. And every 10 feet for straight runs. If the box is 3 feet or less to the breaker it doesn't need to be supported as it's supported on the end but should still maintain that every 10 feet standard. I believe the one in this video was a run of 3 to the box and another 6 feet to the next box though so it's fine just screwing. Securing wouldn't hurt though if you wanted to put one up on each section to be safe.
BTW braided twisted wire, bye the way?
it nay be sleeved but since this is a complete conduit system no.
the device looses ground if removed . stay in your lane kid you have no business teaching anybody wireing
@@jeffriley-lq5np cool story bro. NAY hu?
@@blueplasma5589 it's just by the way. Bye means the opposite of hello. And it's not braided twisted wire. It's THHN and THWN specifically. Braided twisted wire is not solid core wire. Use 12/3. Not that hard to figure out dickweed.
Here in Australia, PVC conduit and Boxes are used to do Household Electrical and Green/yellow Earth wires are used to every Power receptacle, we also use European Wiring code, Brown for Positive and Blue for Neutral. All our Household power is 240 volts most 10 Amp and possibly a 15 Amp outlet, (which have a larger Earth pin) anything larger than 15 Amp is Hard Wired.
Never drill into the mortar. Only into the main block itself. The screws will not stay tight in the Mortar.
I was thinking the exact same thing. I'd have bent an offset to get the knock-out off the mortar line so I would be drilling directly into the block.
@@sigcrazy7 .....far easier to drill mounting holes in different, wider locations.
.
@@sigcrazy7There were plenty of knockouts in that box, he could have chosen the next one up or down to avoid drilling in the mortar. I was actually a little concerned about that red wire in the box that got closer to that unibit for my comfort. Probably didn't shave any insulation off of it, but as I said, it was a little close for my personal comfort.
In mortar,use lead anchors.
So nice to see conduit being used. As an old timer who grew up in Chicago, the sight of Romex being run through holes in studs and into plastic boxes has always left me a bit jarred. Intellectually I know it is permitted in most places, safe, up to code, etc., but still, it just looks wrong -- sort of like knob and tube wiring or something.
While I never did this professionally, one of life's joys was bending a semi-complicated conduit run and having it drop into place just so. For the pros this is likely old hat, but for an amateur it can bring great happiness and satisfaction for a while.
Yeah, that 60+ years of romex really has gone badly. 🙄🤦🏻♂🤷🏻♂
I agree pulling the ground wire into the boxes is better because the bonding through the conduit could be compromised .
O interesting. Please explain how a wire EGC magically can't be compromised
Love the solar, battery backup, power. I’ll have to look into this. Better option than a noisy generator. Thanks. 🇨🇦💝👍
I just ran some 1/2" an d 3/4" emt, and I've found that the connectors to the main panel don't make a real good connection because of the paint on the box. Seems like the better the paint, the worse your connection. GFCI popped on the first test. I dremeled down to bare metal for the connector ring, or ran a ground wire to the first box to make connections. Now I am getting a bunch of people including electrictains saying best practice might be to still run a ground wire - most commercial jobs require it, they tell me.
The NEC requires that the paint be removed at the fitting connection when using it a grounding path, unless the fitting is designed to bite through the paint. Also, the lack of ground will not trip a GFCI, you must have a different issue. Most commercial jobs do not require a wire type ground.
On cutting conduit, if you are going to use a plumbers pipe cutter, use a reamer like a Klein 85191 to ensure that you have expanded the inside of the pipe to required dimension. The pipe cutter squeezes reduces the inner diameter and can catch wire. You did ream, but that does not confirm it's enough. For your install here, it's not going to matter, but for ones with some conduit bends, it can nick/strip wires. Preferred for cutting is a bandsaw (fast and square) or in a pinch a recip saw, but understand those not being standard DIY arsenal.
This method of cutting conduit is DEFINITELY done by a DIY person. A pro would never do that.
I learned something new for sure. I would have expected the pro to use the pipe cutter as it seems more efficient, quieter and neater. Thanks for the tip on the reamer. I've seen them but did not know the benefits.
A sharp hacksaw is much faster than a pipe cutter with a minimum amount of reaming required.
@@TheOldManAndTheSaw I'm obviously not very efficient with a saw then. LOL
@@TheOldManAndTheSaw Good point. I forgot hacksaws existed in this context. Too spoiled by being used to having power options around.
Great Video.
Before we moved into our new house, I had an electrician buddy install outlets on (2) 20 amp circuits on all 4 walls. He installed 12 outlets--on 2 GFCI breakers. He put the conduits vertically. He did offset bends to put the conduits flush to the concrete walls. He did run romex inside the conduits, short distance up to the open ceiling. I was there with him, helping out as best I could. We were drinking beer. We had music playing. We talked about life, etc... I love the job we did till this day.
Sounds like a pretty fun Saturday 🍻
I learned to bend offsets by eye early in my career, but when we were on bigger jobs we had an offset bender tool! Just stick the end of the emt in, push the lever down, BINGO!!! Offset!
We did a lot of EMT drops with romex inside as you described many times when I was an electrician in the 70’s. We put box connections on the open end as bushings. Usually at businesses with drop ceilings and block walls. So it was apparently an acceptable practice back then. I would have no reservations doing it now, at least for private use!”Ya done good”!
@@bobsbarnworkshop7542 It's still acceptable as the codes do not allow Romex within 8" of the floor. If this were a commercial, industrial or hospital site, an inspector might require a box with an insulated bushing above ceiling height, with romex splced there, but it would be rarer at a residential site.
I'd go vertical also, just looks cleaner
I just did this in my garage, but I used MC cable cheaper option vs. conduit and needing the bender for it. But either or make sure you ground the boxes. Duel box I have on the wall the outlets they screw to the box. The one I have in the rafters for the garage door opener I have a 5/8 mud plate for when I put up 5/8 drywall to meet code for garage the outlet screws right to the mud plate.😊
Duel? Pistols or swords?
🤣 Another grammar cop @@The_DuMont_Network
I wouldn't use mc cable in any location where it can be damaged or grabbed. Especially in a residential environment.
I like your Yellow incoming power lug protectors. I bought a set a while ago but have not installed them because I am waiting until I have a reason to go into the panel then they will be installed. Enjoyed the video.
Yeah, I really like how all the new panels (at least from Square D QO) can the covers standard 👍
It would be interesting to see what the resistance of the conduit was at install and over time. I guess the GFI on the socket means this is less of a problem but in the uk the electrics rely on the fuse board / breaker panel to provide short circuit protection via mini circuit breakers and what we call RCB (RCBO or RCCD) so the resistance is critical for calculating trip time for the breakers.
I will do that test today as a side project to test the resistance of the conduit along the length compared to a 12 gauge insulted ground wire.
The GFCI does not give a pass on grounding requirements or integrity, it is a device and as such can be easily damaged or fail, resulting in loss of GF protection. While Code allows conduit to be used as a grounding conductor, it is in the REAL WORLD a bad practice. Any damage to fittings can cause a high resistance or lost grounding path, which is dangerous. And candidly, with such a short run there is absolutely NO EXCUSE for not using a separate grounding conductor, NONE.
Thanks to your video, I've ordered the Locknut Wrenches. I didn't know they existed. Did you say the cable sheathing should be removed if the installation location was considered a 'wet' location? How does one think an inside garage wall is a 'wet' location? When installing conduit, I always place a plastic cap on the ends to prevent the wires from being damaged. A Master electrician lives in the house behind mine. He helps and teaches me when I do electrical DIY projects. I asked him to watch this video. Later, he grinned and bent his head backward.
I agree with the last comment, I always run a green wire and good point with the screws.
I've opened up boxes where I had correctly used Wagos with correctly stripped wires and found wires pulled out of the Wagos. When you fold and then jam your wires back into the box there will be pressures and stresses on the Wagos that will make you have nagging doubts. I don't make any money endorsing anything and the only thing that I have full trust in, as a DIYer, is a good twisted connection. That gives me the peace of mind I seek
Thanks for the feedback 👍
NM cable is not illegal inside EMT, it is simply not necessary.
NEC 334.10 shows “uses permitted.”
NEC 334.12 shows “uses not permitted.”
No mention of NM cable inside EMT. It’s acceptable.
But it’s not a good idea because it takes up a lot of room inside a raceway you may want to add more circuits to later.
Does the extra sheathing with NM cable use more than the allowable capacity of 1/2” EMT? 40% capacity? Just asking
@@rogerk1710 chapter 9 table 1 shows that using one Cable, you can fill it to 53% capacity. The same table has 10 notes below it. Note 9 says cables that are elliptical in shape (NM) the cross sectional area shall be calculated based on the major diameter of the ellipse.
So, you need to physically measure the size and type of nm cable and find the cross sectional area.
Ch 9 table 4 shows that 1/2” EMt with 1 cable (53%) can be filled up to .161inch^2
Very debatable. 344.22, and 358.22 clearly state that "cables shall be installed where such use IS PERMITTED by the respective cable articles. Nowhere in Article 334.10 does it say NM can be installed within these raceways. If you look at Article 336.10 for Type TC, # 2 allows TC in raceways. Other cable systems are indeed allowed. NM and UF are two that are not.
@@racenuke Still not a good idea or needed right? I find it easier to just buy wires as needed for the amps. Thanks for the info
@@rogerk1710 oh I would 100% buy THHN wire spools and use what I need and save the rest for a future project. NM cable in a conduit is cheesy.
If this is a damp location you should pull THWN/THHN stranded wire in the conduit. Beyond this you have several options as to the installation that fall under workmanship and technically would not be a code violation depending on the state you live in of course and how the local codes are worded and who is doing the inspection.
I would recommend the following:
1) Make the branch circuit 20Amp you are literally at the main breaker box there is no reason to run a 15Amp 120VAC branch circuit. Better yet for a square D breaker panel you can use a tandem 20Amp breaker, string two 20Amp branch circuits and alternate in each quad box, one GFCI #1, and the other GFCI #2 in the same box, then alternate the same in the next box.
2) Use THWN/THHN 12AWG stranded wire (will work for damp basement locations). For one circuit use Black, White, Green (don't rely on the conduit for ground fault protection or GFCI leakage detect always run a ground wire even if you run rigid conduit). For two branch circuits you could use Black (line), White, Green, Red (Line), Yellow (or White marked), Green with Yellow stripe (or Green Marked). You would be pulling 6 wires which would not violate the conduit fill or box fill. Stranded wire is much easier to use in creating a longer pigtail while folding into the box. It is always better to have a slightly longer pigtail for repair or future work. Use a dedicated box stranded 12AWG wire ground screw with captive spade lug to ground each receptacle to the box and the circuit ground. In the video you have the proper boxes in that they have the bulged ground connection for use against a flat masonry brick wall.
3) For 4 total duplex receptacles, use four GFCIs, I dislike ganging GFCIs because if you trip a GFCI you will lose all of the receptacles.
4) Use the industrial version of the GFCIs (local code may require tamper proof version). The quality is much higher, and the wire connection screws are larger and more robust. They also have versions that are prewired using stranded wire or solid wire but are not always in stock.
5) For stranded 12 AWG Wire I use ferrules at the breakers. I like the square style crimp it fits nicely under the breaker screw clamp and keeps its shape. Don't forget to torque the breaker screws to specification, for Square D it is listed on the breaker body.
6) I like using crimped captive spade terminals to the receptacle screws, if the receptacle will not accept spade terminals I use ferrules, but here I like a hex crimp style. To daisy chain you can use
twin wire ferrules two wires into one ferrule. You could also use butt splices (some are even step up and step down to allow two wires in one side of the crimp) with high temp heat shrink. To pass inspection it is good to have branded terminals and ferrules used with the branded or approved crimping tools. For example you would use Weidmuller ferrules with Weidmuller ferrule crimpers. When you use a spade lug under a screw head, like you would see if you build industrial control panels, you have a flat connection under a flat screw head, and once this is torque properly (screw is stretched) it will not come loose. I don't like putting a solid round wire around a screw if I can help it, and I certainly don't like to put a stranded wire around a receptacle screw and I never use the back stab easy insertion connections.
7) Use offsets where so the conduit is flush with the wall. Always support conduit with at least one wall strap even if the boxes are close together. With EMT you can bend your own offsets, or you can also buy premade EMT offsets. Bending EMT is not all that difficult it just takes a little practice. If the premade offset is too large for the junction box chosen you can use the two 3/4 inch knockouts that are across from each other on the box so the conduit entry is angled up and exit angled down which look fine.
8) I never use WAGO splices on receptacle branch circuits, I only use them with ceiling lighting circuits.
9) When modifying the GFCIs to fit in the metal face plate use a vice to hold your work you will have to take the ears off and cut off the threaded mount.
10) Use an automatic wire stripper to strip the THWN/THHN. Proper automatic strippers will not nick the strands.
11) Also test new Receptacles and GFCI Receptacles after installation with a dedicated branch circuit tester like the IDEAL 61-164 SureTest Circuit Analyzer (it will fully test GFCIs for current trip and trip time).
As you can see the "workmanship" approach depends on who is doing the wiring and who the client is. My approach, as described above, and the approach in the video have nothing in common other than they both should pass inspection. The only real thing that I would do the same as in the video is have the branch circuit conduit come straight out from the side of the breaker box. This way the conduit run will not block any additional runs that need to go parallel.
I always run 2 hots, adding a red. That way I can have each outlet on a separate circuit (it also allows me to easily change to 220v if needed. And, I always add a green (as noted below), and add screws to support the conduit (as also noted below). And, although it is a pain, I bend the conduit so it does lay flat against the wall (which is also mentioned by others, below).
Yeah, I don’t know so much about that. I agree with you on the mechanical ground but unless you’re basement is really sealed tightly I can see where you might have moisture issues later on, and that eventually is going to roll on that conduit and cause issues with your grounding, I would’ve ran a permanent ground wire as a secondary back up just to be safe
Dampness or moisture are not going to affect the continuity of a properly installed metal raceway. EMT is installed outdoors every day so in a protected environment, even a potentially damp one, not an issue.
Even though your way is 100% fine, it simply makes me feel better to run a ground conductor in a raceway, and have a ground connected at each outlet. That way, if for whatever reason the plates aren’t touching the box, the circuit is still grounded.
I piped EMT in homes for over 20 years here in Chicagoland west suburbs (IBEW 701) . EMT is what we do here that's code. Never pulled a ground once unless it was through a PVC underground slab pipe. Now some towns do make you put a ground from the box to the outlet mainly while using Garvin covers like this video.
& insulated ground needed for isolated ground receptacles
I was under the impression that three feet of the floor in front of the panel had to be kept clear; in fact, an inspector chastised me for having a lightweight folding chair open in front of the panel (but allowed me to remove it before he began his inspection). If that's NEC, the battery box you have in this video is in the way, and should be moved.
that's a portable box. I assume he put it there for the video.
You are correct. Nothing can't be overhead ( say a water line) or 3 feet in front of any electrical panel.
I'm not an electrician but intuitively it occurred to me that the battery placement is less than ideal. It has a non-zero probability of self combustion and who'd want to trip the main breaker two feet above a battery in thermal runaway mode?
Thanks. I've been doing DIY electrical for years- not wrong but this video shows some better ways. I didn't quite understand the difference between the boxes. Also, there are a lot of parts at Lowes that are probably useful but I don't have a clue. New subscriber, I'll look through past videos.
Yeah, there are a lot of options in the 2 electrical aisles. Welcome to the channel.
This is a clean installation. There is nothing wrong with this installation. No separate EGC is needed as the conduit is a compliant use as an EGC. With this installation all that is needed is to remove the insulating washers from the receptacles for metal-to-metal contact that extends all the way to the panel. He is also using THHN 12awg which is also compliant. EMT can be used underground and within concrete. It's perfectly fine for this damp location installation. If anything there should be a conduit support at the center of the 6 foot length per 358.30. This is an excellent how-to video despite the hypothetical what-if's mentioned.
Yes, there is something wrong. In addition to the 6' run needing support, receps are grounded incorrectly. Need a grounding pigtail from box to receps, or receps must be riveted (or some other permanent means of attachment) to the cover.
@@pld8993 If it was a plastic cover i could see the need for the pigtail, but it is metal and receptacles are secured to the face plate with locknuts and the plate is fastened with screws. The mechanical ground is sufficient.
@@joetorres3412 Electrically it works, but it's a violation, 250.146(A)
@@pld8993 I'm learning here so would like your feedback. the two conditions 250.146(A)(1) and 250.146(A)(2) appear to BOTH be met since the author states that the device screws have ridges on the underside of the head which I am interpreting as complying with "screw or nut locking means".
@@MegaMcwizard Ridges under the screw head or nut is not a locking means because it doesn't lock the screw. Irreversible screws, rivets, screws with a locking nut, or the addition of lock washers to what he has would be required.
Once you dismount the GFCI from the metal box....it is no longer grounded. I recall that in another one of your videos you used a wire to ground the GFCI to the metal box to ensure protection from hazards in the event of servicing the GFCI or testing the circuit lines when servicing. The GFCI protection performance is assured when it is grounded and being serviced.
Actually the GFCI will work independent of a ground. There could be no ground and the circuit would still have GFCI protection when a difference between the hot and neutral is detected.
Scott, your panel should have mounted your garage service on thin strips of wood so there is an air gap behind it so that moisture from the all will not compromise the integrity of the panel. The usual way is to mount a couple strips of wood and then mount a piece of plywood to them thus giving you a solid foundation to mount your panel.
The enclosure has ¼ inch standoff features stamped at the mounting holes to account for this, by code.
Not necessary in above-ground garage.
@@donl1410 Still would be much better for it to be mounted on a plywood backing.
@@ckm-mkcthats a waste of time
@@ckm-mkc plywood is not that stable over time. Have come across several panels hanging on rotting plywood. Agree it is a waste of time & unnecessary
Love all the rants. Everyone is a genius in the world of ones and zeros.
That is why I don't make videos and post them.
Hi,
Thanks for all of your instructive videos.
I would have shown this project with the insulated ground. Only because of the way the human mind works, I would show the best, safest, most code compliant install, in spite of the extra cost. People who do this are less likely to be docked by any future inspections.
You still need a ground wire going to the breaker box as you are relying on a current path running thru the conduit to the ground connection in the breaker box. The problem is the painted surface where your conduit enters the breaker box it may be good now, but if it rusts and corrodes. Are you sure its a good connection? Just run the ground wire from boxes into the breaker panel to be safe.
No ground wire needed if using metal conduit EGC.
Agree 100% . Youre relying on too many conduit connections staying tight to get a good ground . It takes maybe 36 seconds more to ground the metal box .
I believe where he ran the conduit into the panel box was concentric k.o.s Not allowed for grounding purposes. No straps, I would have stripped about 3/4" of insulation off the wire and wrapped it around the device screw and continued on to the next devise screw then continued down to the next receptacle and done the same thing. I may be wrong, but I believe the codes now require every junction box to be grounded by wire. also I do not know an inspector who would approve using a pipe cutter on EMT.
@@hankkline7300 Concentric knockouts are allowed for grounding, except for service equipment. Junction boxes with EMT grounding system are not required to have a wire-type ground.
I would run a ground wire, even though the conduit and metal boxes ought to work. If the conduit screws loosen, the conduit could become intermittent. A ground wire inside would ensure that the boxes are still grounded even if the conduit becomes loose. Then I would also tie the ground wire to the green screw on each outlet.
Fittings screws will not magically loosen. If that was true, why would it apply to conduit fittings but not to a ground screw?
What you did works well, another option is to run conduit vertically then run your 12/2 w ground up the wall then it is acceptable to run the sheathed above the flooring joists and to your breaker panel. This will leave the wall space unobstructed.
It would be interesting to learn the basics of working with Metal Clad cable.
I always get something from your videos. Thanks!
I am sure I will use MC in an upcoming video but overall I am not a huge fan.
Unless you are in commercial or industrial, don't. In many areas it is not allowed because it is too light or too problematic. Armored cable or AC cable is heavier duty but still has issues at the connector. It is one of the main contributors to the afci breakers.
@@patrickhein9470 Although I have looked up AC and MC, and the difference between them, I am still unclear about it.
Appreciate your response though. It helps.
I always use pvc Condit and wet location boxes for basements espically on block wall
If you do use a pipe cutter you can score the pipe by cutting a groove instead of cutting through the wall of the EMT. Then use a pipe bender on the groove and it will snap in two. If you did it right there will be no sharp edge inside the pipe. The sharp edge will be on the end of the pipe.
Do note some electrical contractors probably be ready to fire an employee for using a plumbing pipe cutter. If cut all the way through, an unremoved sharp burr insde the pipe could "shave" the wire as it is pulled through the pipe. I know I would be nervous having an employee using a plumbing pipe cutter.
Most people I know use a hand-held band saw to cut conduit.
hello and thank you for the excellent video.metal emt is a good conducter for as your ground but in all my years as working with electric i always recomend running a green line as a posative ground in emt from outlet to back to service panel only as an additional safety to avoid conduit run seperation.again thank you for the video. mr dennis brown
NM in conduit inside is absolutely fine and code compliant. Only in wet locations do you need to run individual THWN conductors
I think best practice would be to always use the insulated green ground wire so as not to depend on grounding continuity through metal conduit connections, which can become loose over time. Also, I would never use WAGO lever nuts, particularly on circuits where the loads might be heavy; not just my opinion - see plenty of comments on other RUclips pro channels about WAGO lever nuts.
Agree about Wago , they are junk. Ordered a bunch from Amazon and found they DO NOT stay closed ! Sent them all back rather Quickly for a refund. 3M Push -In connectors Very Good as a quick-wire alternative.
*NEC (National Electric Code) mandates you to ground wire each switch and electrical receptacle box to EACH receptacle ground screw in those boxes, so that it's protected if the faceplate/ receptacle is off the box and the circuit is live, in order to trip the breaker instead of going through the person and not tripping the breaker. Just picture that live before you pushed the plate forward to screw the plate down...there is no ground protection, they have those codes for a reason.*
State the code article to support your view, please
NEC 250.118(A) .. equipment grounding conductor ... shall be one ... of the following ... (4) EMT. Please detail with code reference why you believe that does not apply.
@@RJ-ej1nrhe’s saying that the EMT provides ground to the box, but if the plate is loose, the receptacle would no longer be grounded. I know that nobody ever uses receptacles with cover plates missing or unmounted, but it’s the safest way.
I also believe that receptacles are not considered grounded unless they have a listed brass contact between the frame and the box the screws are no longer sufficient. Again, check with your inspector. Local rules override code.
I believe you are correct. The metal box and the conduit is the ground but the receptacles do have to have a ground wire to bond them to the box for the reasons you have stated. I can be wrong though, I have been retired for a long time and may have a faulty memory.
@@TomCee53 He says "NEC mandates" and that's what I was responding to. I cited NEC code which allowed something other than what he said was wrote as mandated. Discussions on what could be problematic or a good idea or not are reasonable ones to have, but that's not what I was getting into with my response.
I am going to defend this gentleman. I like that he is encouraging people to think about electrical work and how much goes into it.
Did he do it the way i would, maybe not. Did he violate code? That is a harder question because code can change from place to place.
In this specific case, is the basement a dry location? is it damp?
A dry basement means he could use nm cable inside the pipe. A damp location puts extra requirements on the receptacles he installed.
This is all code book requirements, but what about ahj and there requirements?
Good job sir, keep up the good works.
In my opinion, you are nearing ChrisFix caliper... I watch your videos just because they are that good. Nice job!
ChrisFix is such a great channel, thanks for the support 👍
I would have used a bender to put offsets in the conduit, or just bought the connectors that have the offset.
Especially in a workshop. Were we are all guilty of using that nice screwdriver/ chisel storage space between the emt and wall !
I never use the conduit and boxes as a ground. Loose connections can occur way to easily. Run the green ground wire always.
Great video - Thank you. But I need to add my 2 cents ... 20 A Circuit usually requires T-slot GFCI and receptacles, one item to mention. The second item is - tapcons are not good for Inside the JBs - sharp, I prefer to use round head screws. And, Yes, 120V is not required dedicated Ground, you are correct, but i would DEFENITELY pull Grong wire for this circuit, just for additional protection, especially for many years After this installation. Sorry for my notes and Thanks again for great presentation. Master Electrician (Canada).
Appreciate the feedback.
Run the earth/ground wire...belts and suspenders. I've seen too many electrical boxes in environments like this (garage, etc.) where they're constantly knocked in to, and over time the conduit fittings become loose to the point where you can't rely on them as a ground path.
Don't quote me but I believe EMT doesn't pass as a ground even though it's attached to the panel here in California. I believe the reason is that the conduit connections can come lose and some weather resistant connectors/couplers have plastic mating surfaces which breaks the bonding.
I would agree that a local inspector, jurisdiction, or state could require a dedicated ground back to panel. Probably worth a call to see how the inspector is going to interpret code.
CA electrical code allows EMT as a grounding path. The raintight fittings have a plastic washer internally, but in no way do they disrupt the metal to metal contact between the conduit and the fitting. EMT fittings don't just magically come loose any more than ground screws magically come loose.
What happened to the conduit offsets?
Not necessary. He should have added a mini to the center of the 6' length that way he did it, or he could have used box offsets to get it tight to the wall and used a 1-hole strap. Either way is fine.
THX SCOTT,FOR SHARING THIS 🤗💚💚💚
FYI in Michigan-no problem running 14/2 Romex in EMT with ground in my unfinished basement against wall. Ran two circuits 9 boxes all city inspected and passed
I always used a hammer drill for Tapcons. I don't believe it's the impact driver that strips them. I am sure they were already stripped. I met a low voltage guy. I have met many in my life but this guy is the best at what he does that I have ever seen. His advice was to stop using a hammer drill and use a regular drill with a masonry bit. He said since he stopped using a hammer drill he rarely has them strip. He also uses a regular drill for larger holes in masonry so he doesn't get the exit hole blow outs. We are in Florida so it's mostly block with stucco over it. The exit holes can make huge blowouts. I stripped many Tapcon holes in my life. Since not using the hammer drill I haven't had even one strip. If they do strip adding a stripped wire in the hole usually works to grab the Tapcon.
Great tip ,thank you
Tapcons are one of the most frustrating useless fasteners. Just get a pack of plastic anchors with matching screws. Change your life.
You aren’t wrong they are a PITA but I like them better than plastic anchors. If they don’t strip they are great. Try using them without the hammer drill major success rate increase.
Bent drill bit and going too fast is the problem. I use SDS rotary hammer all the time. No problems, trick is slow down and don't bend the bit. Your shoulder will hate using a regular drill if you do this alot
I do not like to drill into mortar for Tapcon screws. The mortar pulls out easily, especially if aged.
I am with you but this type of brick/block easily blows out so it is actually worse.
Use Fischer rawlplugs.... you know, the right tool for this job exists since over 50 years. Please learn to use it...
yes, better to use proper fixings and stay away from the mortar and edges of brick to secure, you also need saddles on the conduit. If you follow this guy in the EU and do it without a qualification in electrical installation then you will Not be insured...
@@theDgrader That is the MAIN consideration in the installation! It's not about safety or durability over time. It is ENTIRELY what the inspector writes on his report! If the insurance agent refuses to insure you can be in deep shit!
@@EverydayHomeRepairs I agree with that 100%. It's easy to crack that block; it's too rigid and brittle.
I have not seen a circuit run in EMT without ground for about 2 decades. I remember it being required as part of the local codes (AZ, CA, and NV). The MGM fire was started corroded conduit. So much of the code requirements changed because of the that fire.
Although it was a UK style 220V system, I did have an issue with some work benches in Hong Kong where the faceplate securing screws loosened and there was a non-existent ground return. As a minimum I would advise connecting the face plates to the conduit boxes with a short bootstrap earth lead and not relying on the faceplate screws. Actually, better still run a ground wire back to the distribution board and then you are covered for any loose or corroded joints in the future.
I always put some construction adhesive on the juction box behind it to the wall. Helps hold it a bit stronger and seals around the drill holes a bit better. The gauge of wire youre using is the same as the Romex. There is nothing wrong with using romex in conduit.
Can you support, "There is nothing wrong with using romex in conduit." Code citation, please
@@donl1410 absolutely. The NEC states you can't use Romex in damp or wet locations or in conduit ran under ground. That code is 334.12 (b)(4). There is nowhere in code that it can't be used in any conduit or in garages or other areas that are not underground or wet or damp locations. Romex is the same gauge wire as individual strands and is actually better protected than individual strands. Old times don't do it because it's cheaper than Romex, not because it's any safer or better. I challenge you to find code that says that you can't... Because it's not in there.
Old timers*
@@donl1410 This appears to be covered in Section 334 of the NEC. In short, I read it as saying that where an NM/Romex cable is exposed, it muse be protected from physical damage, and lists EMT among other things, as acceptable protection. The inspector in my jurisdiction told me, if I recall correctly when I asked, that a single NM cable in conduit is allowed, but not with anything else. Below are the code sections, titles, and a link if you're curious for the details.
Disclaimer: I am not an electrician, just a hobbyist who likes understanding code. Everything I say might be totally wrong.
Article 334 Nonmetallic-Sheathed Cable: Types NM and NMC
334.15 Exposed Work
In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(B), cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15(A) through (C).
334.15 (B) Protection From Physical Damage, states:
Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, RTRC marked with the suffix -XW, or other approved means.
Link here: up.codes/viewer/texas/nfpa-70-2023/chapter/3/wiring-methods-and-materials#334.15_(B)
@@HypherNet In addition to the 334.12 I cited before where it states where Romex can be used these others further demonstrate nothing about not being used in conduit.In fact in a garage is an area where it could be exposed to physical damage, as states in your above codes, that REQUIRE Romex to be protected if used (conduit). So basically there is nowhere it states you can't use it conduit, and it states areas you can't use it (these areas include wet, damp or underground locations - doesn't apply here) and states that if you use it, it must be protected (ie inside conduit).
That step bit you used to enlarge the hole in the panel makes a much better pipe deburring tool than the thin, cheesy deburring blades on most pipe cutters. You don't need a drill, just turn it by hand.
Always pull a ground, you need that for any future needs.
Thumbs up... Real clean job... nice to see the level used... not all guys take this much care.
I believe that you still need the ground wire pigtail from the grounding terminal on the device to a ground bonding screw inside the box. Yes you can use the metal conduit and boxes as the grounding BUT as soon as you remove that outlet cover with the outlets from the box, the cover as well as the outlets are no longer grounded. A pigtail ground from the devices to the box needs to be in place for when the outlet cover is removed. This allows for troubleshooting on live electrical circuits where all safeguards (i.e. grounds) are still intact on all metal equipment.
NEC does not require the ground pigtail, 250.146(A)
@@donl1410 "I believe" was a bad choice of words. While the code allows it IMO it's only a matter of time before someone has a cover removed while testing/troubleshooting a live circuit and becomes the path from the energized ungrounded cover and devices to the grounded box. Once someone gets injured or dies they'll eliminate this code allowance.
The thing I don't like is that the breaker panel is painted and your connector is creating an inconsistent grounding with the box depending on the hole size and if it is touching the metal properly. I'm no expert but I see that as a risk pretty substantial risk.
Well the GFI tripped so what's your point lol?
GFCI's don't need a ground to work. They sense an imbalance between the hot and neutral. If the imbalance exceeds 7-10ma, they trip as some of the supplied current is finding another return path, perhaps through you. That said I am not advocating not to use a ground wire and neither does the NEC except when replacing old two wire receptacles with a GFCI.
For your argument to hold the GFCI would need to be before the conduit and not in it. Which means that the cables leading to the GFCI and the connection to it are not protected if the ground is not proper.
@@mabelisle I'm not following you here? The feed wires to any receptacle mounted GFCI are not GFCI protected. But they are still protected by the panel breaker. GFCIs are only required for certain receptacles in certain areas. Hard wired appliances such as air conditioner condensers and pool pumps do not require a GFCI as the are properly grounded with a permanent ground wire. Again, the ground terminal on a GFCI has nothing to do with it's GFCI functionality.
@@andydelle4509 I think they are saying that there's a real world risk. If the conduit ground is broken at the panel fitting, and the before-the-GFCI hot contacts the metal conduit, you have a hot chassis situation that will not trip the GFCI and could give you a bad shock. He should have just used a ground wire, I think the majority of people would have.
This point was the most confusing part when I moved into a new house in IL. No grounding wire... WTF..?! It took a while to figure out why I didn't need it. I needed this video earlier.
Be careful I had owned several older homes in Illinois with no ground wire but also not means of ground running to the metal boxes.
It's easy enough to check if you actually have a ground path using those plugin testers
Bring out the green grounding screws for each box and bonding them to an additional ground wire throughout the conduit run. Should use grounding pigtails for recept as well.
Your metal boxes should be mounted on a moisture barrier, i.e. piece of wood. This keeps the boxes from rusting from the moisture that comes through those cinder blocks. That wall shows signs of moisture penetration and efflorescence already. Additionally, although you may not technically have to run a grounding conductor through that conduit, it is a good practice to do so. Over time, the set screws in the connectors and conduit will loosen and/or corrode losing the bonding effect for the ground path. I believe that running Romex in conduit may cause a possible overheating situation due to the temperature rating of the Romex and it being enclosed in conduit.
@@karlwithak.my guy
Actually Karl, the code is written by the assholes that manufacture electrical equipment. Find a copy of the NEC and look at chapter 9, "The code writers board". It'll make you sick.@@karlwithak.
I would not rely in the conduit set screws for adequate grounding since over time they will likely oxidize. Also, why didn't you do the bends to get the conduit to lay flat against the wall and use the "C" type wall fasteners?. I thought it was okay to run only one piece of Romex inside a conduit but no more due to possible heat build up.
Well it's obviously easier to install a straight piece of conduit than to bend it several times. Also, no extra tools required.
When it comes to NM cable, yes in some instances, depending on the jurisdiction of course, it is permissible to run a short section of NM inside a conduit to protect it from physical damage. But NM shouldn't be fully enclosed by a conduit.
I just buy the angled conduit box adapters with set screws as they bring the conduit right up against the wall.
@@jaycahow4667I've used a couple of the 1/2" offsets but remember them as being a little expensive. Do they have them for the 3/4" conduit?
In UK we thread each conduit end, so its ground is definitely solid
@@herrtomas6729 We use the thick-wall (threaded) for outdoors but this is the thin wall with indoor fittings that use a single set screw. No need to be cheap, just include the ground wire.
As always this is one way but i would also advise that a ground / earth cable be included in the install.
Some comments:
First, gfci protection can be done at the breaker or receptacle. Pigtailing allows you to set up both receptacle locations like the one nearest the panel. This means my fat, lazy, behind can have them set up so there is a gfci at each receptacle location that functions on only that location. Should one be hidden or if the are further apart, the walk to reset is not far.
As the pros know, section 90.4 allows your local building department (AHJ) to adjust or even ignore the nec rules.
Section 334 nm cable, in 334. 10.(A). (1). restricts nm cables to dry locations. Basements may be dry or not depending on your ahj. There is information in the definitions section, but allows for some interpretation.
334.15 nm cable protection from physical damage. Has a section for basement installs. It calls for listed conduit with bushings.
Conduit fill side note. Chapter 9 table 1 note 2 page 715 in the 2023 nec......if the conduit is for protection and not a completed conduit run, the fill requirements do not apply. (Not applicable here.)
358.30.(B). Emt supports. Requires a support within 3 ft of a box. Shown in this video between the 2 receptacle boxes, but not highlighted between the first box and the panel. Again, ahj may allow this.
250.118 still lists emt as an acceptable equipment grounding conductor. Fmc is also listed in this section with several restrictions. This indicates the metal boxes are grounded per. 314.4.
406.9(A). Receptacles in damp locations shall be weather-resistant type. Again, this is ahj on if the basement IS a damp location.
406.9(B). Metal face plates shall be grounded.
406.11. Connecting receptacle grounding terminal to box......see. 250.146.
250.146.(A). Has requirements for grounding the receptacle. cover.... .must be listed and meeting both requirements. 2 fasteners that are permanent....Thread locking or screw or nut locking means, rivets.
These sections are from the 2023 code. Please review any or all as I abbreviated the sections. I hope i did not change any meanings in doing so.
Glad you used a level to make sure that the conduit doesn't run uphill. If so, some line amperage loss could occur. Likewise if running downhill, the voltage could elevate because of gravitational pull. Another way would be to just follow the horizontal mortar joint which is level. (bricklayer point of view) I enjoyed the video. Great JOB!
Level is mainly for esthetics.
This install is not to national code standards.
See: NEC 358.30(A)
You need straps every ten feet and within 3 feet of every outlet box, device box, cabinet; conduit body, or other tubing termination.
Without a ground if the hot wire inside a device frays and connects to the case, you have a risk of electrocution. A ground wire keeps the case from becoming "hot."
I might have missed it with 1500 comments. But he is running 12/2 wire with a 20A breaker. Using a 15A GFI. I would think you would need a 20A GFI too. The 15A outlets I understand, which would be code since there are a few outlets. But 20A ones would be better!
The 20A outlets I find locally look different than the ones you installed (shape of the neutral). Do these vary by region?
Nope, all 20 Amp outlets will have the horizontal slot you are referencing. As long as you have more than one outlet (even just a duplex outlet) on the 20 Amp circuit you can use 15 Amp.
No, those are NEMA 5-15R (15 amp receptacles) and they are not rated for 20A service. There's no protection device to prevent an overload of those receptacles in this circuit. I am not sure if this is code where this was filmed but it's not a great idea in general.
Pretty good job. But you should have installed the Minerallac conduit hangers since you didn't bend box offsets or use offset box connectors for the EMT. The EMT must be supported.
Isn't EMT already supported by the boxes and/or panel?
@@aurvaroy6670Not enough. Code requires support.
@@KameraShy Yes I know code requires it but do you know why it does? Cause I don't
@@aurvaroy6670 box connections are not considered supporting by the Code. You must physically support the conduit no further than three feet from any connection and every ten feet in a horizontal run.
@@TwilightxKnight13 But why?
Several points: 1) Wire is cheap, compared to safety...always run a grounding (green or bare) wire through the conduit and to outlets/switches. Your metal ground through the boxes/conduit depends on tight screws, etc. Screws will work loose over time, which will destroy your grounding conductor system. This is dangerous situation that could occur and you'd never know it until disaster strikes. Having a separate grounding conductor provides redundancy. If someone later does work and fails to re-tighten screws, you won't be in trouble. 2) You stated this is a 20Amp circuit, and you correctly used 12 gauge wire, yet you used 15 Amp outlets. You no longer have a 20Amp circuit. 3) While you did say you turned off the power to your sub-panel, it's always a good practice to actually put a meter on it to ENSURE the power is off. Taking 30 seconds of extra effort provides extra safety. This rules out any hint of something not going as planned when turning a breaker off (if it happens to be the wrong breaker).
4) I think you'll find that unless you're in a wet environment, using NM type cable (Romex) is perfectly fine inside a conduit, provided you follow any derating required by code.
I always ran a green wire for ground. I heard all the arguments against using a ground but its better to be safe than sorry. Also in case of using orange dedicated receptacles with isolated grounds the green wire is required. I dont do too many EMT jobs but my home will have green wires for ground inside the EMT. 73
Also to me that is the perfect application for MC cable. What is wrong with using MC cable? So much easier to work with and install.
For installation like this I actually like the clean look of conduit. I know it takes a bit of getting used to but overall I like the finished product. Probably just me but overall I am not a fan of MC.
In most people's opinion MC looks like garbage in a visible application. No matter how well it is installed, it will droop. It is generally used for lighting whips and in wall cavity areas with limited access or that require more protection for the wiring than Romex provides.
@@TwilightxKnight13 of course it's going to droop. That's why you put in supports. I would argue it's still better looking and safer than bare romex in a garage, which is what my previous owner did.
That panel is coming off the wall. Notice the gap at the top. Also, like others mentioned, don't fasten to the mortar. That's probably what happened to the panel as well.
Nice video... Lots of useful information. 👍✌
I like to use offset EMT connectors to place the conduit flat against the wall because people end up hanging shovels and rakes from the metal conduit. There are some highly skilled old timers that will actually bend an offset at the end of each tube first try..!! That is easier with 1/2" conduit.
As far as the ground.. I would much rather see a THHN green wire run through the entire circuit.. Fast forward 20-30 years.. The box may get slightly loose from wall especially in mortar. Those sheet metal knockouts with the conduit fitting get bent back and forth and eventually break free from the box (we've all seen it) creating an open circuit ground. A separate wire is much better...
all you gotta do is get your inspector to sign off on it and it's good enough for me.