The reason you only need ONE box with the neutral is bcuz dimmer switches at the moment can't communicate with one another- if my case is ever heard I will rectify that... hence you can ONLY HAVE ONE DIMMER on a 3-way switching system. Eventually you will simply require a NEUTRAL at all switch locations... we aren't there yet!
I worked as an apprentice with a journeyman for 3 years doing electrical wiring, mostly light receptacles, switches, and plug ins, still doing minor electrical for property owners around where I live it's a great little income
I got an eerie feeling during the description of the 3-way and 4-way circuits. Then I realized my father had described this to me in almost exactly the same way in nearly the exact same words when I was a kid... 60 years ago. Great explanation, great channel.
I started as an electrical helper when I was a teen, learned 3-ways & 4-ways from the guy I worked for which was in his 60's then. Been state licensed since 1993, electrical contractor for many years and over 20 years as an engineer. Still show 3-ways & 4-ways wired this way.
@@chrism2042 my brain got overloaded almost immediately listening to this. I know more than the average guy about electrical, but never could grasp these things.
Don't wire the house you sleep in, call a electrician if you want to wake up in the morning and have confidence that your house won't burn down while sleeping 😂😊😊😊😊
I really enjoy this channel. Very easy to understand, no swearing, code updates, just great overall!! I did want to mention that I just wired a 4-way switch and it had 2 black screws and 2 gold screws. Thanks for the video!
I have installed many complicated four-way circuits and three-way circuits in properties, I always draw it out, most of these have included conduit and Romex wiring, so if you have a complicated switch locations just draw it all out and start connecting the dots then figure out how many wires you need between each point and how you’re going to get them there, for example you have a four-way circuit that might have four switches, one by the back sliding door, one out on the patio somewhere in a wall, one upstairs in the bedroom and another by the gate coming into the backyard this is a complex circuit Only in the fact that you will have to figure out how to get all the wire from where it needs to go and then to all the different lighting just draw it out start figuring out your runs and it’s very simple at that point
The hardest part is FINDING a 4-way switch! Most of the hardwares stores here don't have them...except for that ONE odd store that's the furthest away.
@@TonyP9279 Well yeah that would suck, if you don’t have an electrical supply house or a big box store, I guess the only answer there is to keep a few on hand
@@TonyP9279 Or I suppose you could try to tell them that odd numbers of switch locations have been outlawed . So you need to install 4 locations ... thereby you can use only 3 way switches . With the 2 middle of the line ones , being only connected with a single conductor on their commons . Hehe lol . But then of course can just wire nut the two travelers till the 4-way shows up in the mail . Edit: Scratch that about four 3-way switches being able to work . Was before enough morning coffee and thought I was being clever . Ya obviously the 2 switch combo won't let power through for the last leg switch position to function for turning the light on ... Duh :\
Three way and four way circuits are easy if you remember that one end of the circuit will have the power feed and the other end has the switch leg. All wires between the switches are travelers. Red and black wires are the travelers using 3 wire Romex.Tie neutrals together and tie grounds together. Stuff in the rear of the outlet box. I can do these type of circuits without even thinking.
Thanks for the explanation! When I was a teenager, I figured out the three-way wiring schematic for the SPDT switches. Now, decades later, I couldn't figure it out in several tries. The diagrams are a huge help.
What I have done to retain memory of how Three and Four way wiring systems work is to make a working model of one on a panel of plywood. The model even has a breaker box with breakers on it. The breaker box simply plugs into an outlet for power. This gives me a micro model to view when my memory on how to wire things up starts to fade. The model actually works and turns on a light bulb from two different switches. To make the models I go to Menards and buy and use the actual wire, gang boxes, outlets, bulb receptacle, breaker box with breakers that one would use in a house. Each model costs me about $45 to make. The breaker box alone is about a $20 cost. I just use a small two breaker box. Not a full sized one. I bolt the model to a wall, plug the models breaker box into an outlet and actually use it at times for lighting. I also make a very detailed color drawing on graph paper of the model's wiring system that is mounted on the wall next to the model. Is great to have when teaching my grandkids about electrical wiring concepts.
@@normtheteacher5485 I think that you could get away with a much less expensive design with some LEDs, resistors to limit current, and some SPDT switches with a battery. Three Way Light Switches are literally just big SPDTs. But, they wouldn't work well for actual lighting. They would however, make for a better demonstration of how the circuit works, if you put LEDs on each of the two legs, to demonstrate where the power was flowing at the time.
@@javabeanz8549 yes, that would be cheaper but I wanted to use the actual materials that one would use in a house. I even use the actual type of wire that one would use. That way my kids don't have to mentally transfer the led model into an actual house model. To me the extra expense is worth making the learning more effective. Thanks for your suggestion and for watching. Your right though, it would be cheaper. Unfortunately there are no more Radio Shacks where I used to get electronic parts for experimentation.
@normtheteacher5485 Yes, most of the Radio Shack stores and other little shops like it are gone. Though eBay and Amazon have parts, though you can buy a whole bag of parts from a big supplier for about the same price as a handful. And if you intend on the kids doing the actual wiring, yes, that's the better option. Maybe some neon bulbs to show where the power is hot at the switches.
Learn something new every day. In the five houses I've lived in (including my folks' house built in 1957) I never saw a two wire loop. Ever. The fourth house was built in 1973 and at that time the area was in the county miles from the city it was a suburb of. Whoever wired it learned on 12v negative ground systems bc the neutral in the entire home was the black wire. Plus they consistently cut off the ground wire. And the icing on the cake? Aluminum wiring. I did research on aluminum wiring. The history of aluminum wiring and its shortcomings are interesting.
Excellent video. My jurisdiction is 10 years behind the current code and the inspector is more concerned with the lenght of ground wires than the absence of a neutral. People who pull homeowner permits don't realize problems they will encounter if they want to take advantage of new technology and this video is exceptional.
@@johnirwin1837 I don't need them now. But I'm 73 years old and want the house I'm remodeling to be my forever home. Smart switch technology will allow me to operate all of the electronics from anywhere. I'm also putting in curbless showers, wider doors, hardwood floors, lever door handles, and pull down kitchen shelves. Plus, the 2023 code requires that the wiring meet the current code if the walls are open and exposed which they are.
@@rickgilbrt True, but I am still old school and old so I won't be using them in my next little wiring project. In 10 to 15 years if the next guy wants them they can install them on their dime.
This was a great explanation of the latest changes in those parts of the National Electrical Code that are going to affect most homeowners and DIYers. Thanks for taking the time to carefully explain the material and thanks to AG1 for being a sponsor.
Funny, I wired my house 15 years ago using 14-3 for switch legs ONLY because I didn’t like the neutral becoming part of the hot circuit. In the whole house I only had one fixture like that and only because I goofed when running the line wire to the fixture box. All others I made the effort to avoid that scenario. Still not sure what I was thinking that day. It was easier to run the 14-3 switch leg than rework the fixture feed. Excellent video and VERY clear.
When roughing in a house I prefer to run the feed into the switch box, then run the two wire cable to the light fixture. Though I have wired switch loops using 3 wire plus ground cable in certain situations, usually in renovations when I need to add a switch a pull chain style luminaire while doing minimal drywall damage. I'd like to see you finish this video with another video demonstrating the Chicago and California methods. You just earned a new subscriber
Don't show these guys the suicide 3 way please. You're going to really get someone hurt. You've shown all that they need. If they want to know more they need to do an apprenticeship. Someone's gonna get hurt.
I've always preferred the feed-through method. When my father reorganized his candle making business 30 years ago, I wired his production and supply areas with six different zones using feed-through, and everything works perfectly to this day. Now I'm looking at rewiring the laundry room in our own 1941 house, and will be replacing the existing loops with feed-through. It will be easy compared to the next job of putting grounded outlets on the second floor though!
That is the best description of iow to 3 and 4 ways. I've done them before but always takes me longer to watch the videos 4 times than actuslly wire it in. Yours was clear and concise
I like to print-out the best representation of the way I wired a 3- or 4-way loop and tuck copies in each switchbox or by the cellar lamp, where The Next Guy is sure to find it. "always takes me longer to watch the videos 4 times than actually wire it in." True that. I learn better from well-drawn drawings. Although that could mean flipping every wiring book in the library, cuz some are/were just awful. Now books are going out of style. BM's video is pretty good, and I thank him for that. But if you go to a yard sale for deals on workpants or moosetraps, see if they have 50-cent wiring books.
In my world (mostly industrial), there were two ABSOLUTE RULES, for switch circuits. ONE, that you ALWAYS feet the top of Switching Devices and take Switch Legs from the bottom. As you showed the switch with the three conductor upgrade, the Red Switch Leg was on Top. TWO, you carry the Black as Hot all the way to the TOP of the switch and then Black Tape the White Switch Leg back to the Feed to the fixture, for what we refer to as the Light Feed method (as opposed to the Switch Feed Method). When I used to teach these things in an industrial trade school (1970s), we used a simple but descriptive method for referring to the various switch and fixture combinations. The first designation was the point where the Hot Feed was present. Example: Switch - Light, Switch - Switch - Light, Switch - Light - Switch, Light - Switch - Switch - Switch, etc. My students left knowing how to wire all of them using this terminology (they didn't need to remember which state they were in). One last point that was not mentioned. One of my vary first residential jobs was for an elderly lady who complained that she had trouble at night, turning all the appropriate light switches on and or off. I told her that I could arrange every switch so that she could just walk through the house and push every switch down. Over the years, I probably had 50 such requests from all of her friends. I never leave a job without such switch treatment. Hint: As you drew the Three way circuit (travelers - top to top and bottom to bottom, one switch would always be Up and One would always be Down when the Light is Out, hence I "X" the travelers to achieve Both Down = Off (for the elderly ladies of the world)...
I'm not an electrician but a retired EE who designed RADAR transmitters, it seems to me that running a neutral to every box during construction is a small cost with huge benefits in the future. We always designed "spares" into every wire harness and control panel.
I was an EE as well before I retired. Spares are a must for industrial applications. I think it's a best practice to feed the switch first. Not only does that leave a neutral should you ever need one but also allows you to add a receptacle at the switch or even right below it if needed with minimal effort.
I’ve watched so many videos on installing three way light switches & this is the best execution of explanation all options, the function of each variants & code compliance I’m not licensed, but I just want to do things on my residential. I wanna know all codes & do it correctly, I spare no expense when it comes to safety & doing it correctly, so your videos make me feel relieved. I used to be a firefighter, but I’m not an overworked & underpaid ER nurse so on my days off I try to keep busy with home projects since I’m poor & can’t pay for a complete overhaul at once Appreciate your time & quality of videos!
Nice explanation. Never heard of a Chicago 3way or a California 3way. would loved to have heard what they were. Checked and found another RUclips video that described them.
That was easily the clearest diagram/explanation of a 4 way installation. I have that same setup in my home. I spent some time with the 3 switch boxes open trying to figure out what they did. My reason was to install a dimmer. SW1 is the correct switch to replace with the dimmer. I mostly guessed which was SW1 vs SW3 because SW1 was far closer to the load panel. I know I could test with meter to verify and I will before installing the dimmer (future project). Sometimes just looking in boxes is hard to figure what they did. My house was built in 1991 and the electrician was cheap with romex, pretty much always the shortest path possible. You should see my attic, it looks like a spider ran the wiring. They also combined light circuits with receptacles, that may be to code but I don't like it much. When I bought the house, I replaced all the old style toggle switches with rockers.
Going to the switch first, then the light, seems the most logical method. It keeps the wire colors consistent so the homeowner can easily tell what's what if they ever change out switches or lights.
That's relatively unimportant. The important part is that you lose neutral at the light switch, making it a HUGE pain in the ass, and IMO, has always been a hard NO. but, 90% of electricians past and present suck and I wouldn't trust them to ever do any of my electrical work.
@@r7boatguySaves money, time, and wire. That being said I wouldn’t do it in my own house. All my switches were wired that way when I got the place, most of them been replaced now. I did just help a friend completely rewire his house and we did the switches with no neutral. He was more concerned with money and wire.
No I always feed the hot and neutral at the light box it's much easier in Florida since we have no basements. All the wires come down from the attic. You would use more wire feeding the hot and neutral at the switch location. You would have double wire going back to the light. 73 feeding wires down a wall are always a chore. 73
We used to refer to those 2 different ways to wire a 3-way as: 1.Take the neutral to the light; or 2. Feed the farthest switch first. Good way to remember them. Which one to choose depends on how the circuit is run. Nice video. Thanks.
Great video, however, I was hoping you'd show the wiring for the California switch setup and for the Chicago switch setup and descibe why they're not code compliant, thanks
I was curious too and looked them up. Chicago has two separate connections to the light and both switch hot and neutral. If it's neutral from both or hot from both (!) then the light is off. California just switches the hot but has three travelers, with T1, T2, and common all wired together. T2 goes to the hot side of the light and T1 goes to the hot. Neutral goes to the light.
@@Melds This apparently is also called Carter three way. It was banned a hundred years ago. Sin short the witches were reversed so that the power came (to both) from the side with two contacts and the sides with one contact went to the light. Since it was the knob and tube era with single wire cables that made some sense though the risk is obvious. With modern cables that would make no sense at all.
@@BackyardMaine Thanks, you're videos are very helpful, also, I know the code also says that all outlets, gfci not withstanding, have to be replaced with the arc fault circuit type, hopefully you can do a video on that as well
This is the best explanation for wiring 3 way switches I have ever seen. As a DYI I usually struggle wiring 3 ways but your explanation clicked. Thank you for the excellent content and teaching. I
Don't know if it's code compliant or not but electrically that dead-end switch circuit can be extended. Just replace SW2 with a 4-way and move the 3-way over to the new SW3 location and run your wire from SW2 to the SW3 location. Something that always used to confuse me because I cane from an electronics background and knew what was actually inside the 3-way and 4-way switches. 3-way is a SPDT and the 4-way is a DPDT switch wired as a reverser internally.
@@stargazer7644if true, Europe is basing the name off of the number of locations, while here in the States we base it off of the number of wires required for the switch to function. A 3-way switch will always and only function with 3 wires. 4-ways will always and only function with 4 wires. If you wanted you can have 20 switches to work a single light. All it would take are 2 3-ways and 18 4-ways.
@@TheForgottenMan270 So why is the word "way" included? I rather think Europeans call them 2 way switches because the switch selects one of two ways current can go out of the switch. American 4 way switches are called intermediate switches in Europe, not 3 way switches.
The Algo sent me here for some reason. I'm an 01 Electrician (commercial/industrial) and just did this work in my garage. 3 cheap fixtures -> 12 LED 1 switch -> 2x 3-way Split some lights off for task lighting controlled by SP switch near their respective doors. While I'm not interested in any smart devices where my garage lights are concerned, there are cases where a future home owner might. For instance, smart switching can be part of a disability accommodation where mobility or reach is limited. Regardless, neutrals at the switch location is both code compliant and a good idea. That being said, if I had to tear down any finish work to preserve or add a neutral, I'd skip it. This is a choice I make in my own home. Fortunately, an electrician can get a lot done by adding a junction box. By doing this, there is no longer a need to bring the neutral back out of the switch box. That return neutral conductor is now a free agent! Like others have said, REIDENTIFY YOUR WIRES when necessary. Phase tape comes in all the colors. Stay safe!
New to your channel, and you enticed me with options 1 and 2 that are not compliant but you didn't explain. Leading me to look them both up. They are marvelous rube goldberg class craziness! Best when used with knob and tubes, I bet, for that extra zing. Seriously, thanks for a great video.
9:45 now I finally understand how 3 ways work. I've replaced alot but just match the old and new without a true understanding until just now. Thanks for the clear presentation.
You should say that the switches need to be rated at 20 amps if it's on a 20 amp breaker. #12 wire isn't required, and most lighting is on 15 amp circuits. Which will save money on the switches, breakers, and wiring.
I was SO happy to find neutral in the light switch in my toilet room off my master bath (it's got the toilet in it's own little room). There were two single space switches in a double box there - one for light and one for fan. I was able to replace the two switches with a single-space double switch (not sure what the name is) and use the second space for a GFCI outlet. This lets me plug in a nightlight, and a phone charger. I don't use the phone charger often, but when prepping for my colonoscopy it was a lifesaver. It would also be the only way to power one of those fancy bidets if I (or a future homeowner) ever wanted one. Point being - having full power available is nice for more than home automation!
Thank you! Glad you liked the video.. The paint is Valspar from Lowes. The beige is called Oregon Coast Interior Eggshell. The Gray is called Notre Dame Interior Eggshell. The colors were bought about 15 years ago so I'm not sure if they are offered by the same name today. I have leftover paint so I was able to get the colors for you. Hope this helps.
Finally, thank goodness, I have always wired like this any way,poor to the switch box first it makes for easy trouble shooting also.The first time I ever noticed a two wire to the switch box like that was when I came to the high desert and troubleshooting shooting cheap spec homes, these cheap contractors trying to save three feet of romex .
I never saw a marker for the hot line with the bare wire running in the baseboard. ahhh those were the days..... Don't have to strip the insulation off when you sell the copper.
My dining room light is wired with the dead end 3-way wiring. Which annoys me because I wanted to put a new switch that requires a neutral at the dead end location but there is no neutral there so I couldn't. I got a different dimmer switch that didn't require a neutral in the end.
Very good explanation and glad to hear about the code change which I hadn't heard about. I typically used 3 conductors plus ground cable for travelers between two 3-ways, and between 3-way and 4-way switches, because I disliked reidentification of neutral conductors.
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wow you almost made it a full 60 seconds before screwing this up. First it was NEVER legal to reflag any conductor less than #6 under the code period. Second white is not nor ever has been the designation of "neutrals" white has always had the designation "grounded current carrier" and had a specific exception for this application therefor no reflagging of the white conductor in this configuration was implied or proper even if the wire were #6 (you only ever mark some other color TO white NEVER white to something else EVER PERIOD don't do it it is a mistake. The same is true for green and the section on marking is VERY detailed and exact in this regard with shall and must playing a large part in the descriptions and circumstances listed) As to the change? it is moot to me , my experience is that wiremen have been feeding at the switch or even home running from such boxes for 50 years or more as simply good practice and rarely if ever used switch loops and only in closets and crawl spaces where the use of powered devices is uncommon...also this change does not solve the grandfathered installations none of which are required to be upgraded to meet this code so the problem still exists and will always exist in some capacity.
But are you being paid by this product to promote it? Be aware of the legal troubles Dave Ramsey is in for not letting his many followers that trust him to promote products know that he is also paid by the companies that are being promoted. Just a helpful tip as you are very helpful to us here in video land!
Thanks.. I have to be careful. I'm covered by the paid promotion text at the top of the video screen and of course I have to say that this video is sponsored by whom ever is paying me to promote a product. @@mostthoughtprovoking
For dead end, why can't you run an additional 12-2 between SW1 & SW2? Tlhis would give you the needed black hot and cap the whites should a neutral ever be needed in SW2 or code change required.
I moved into a new construction house last year. I replaced all toggle switches with paddle switches (some smart switches). I found neutral wires in all boxes….👍👍
Just wired up a room using the "Dead end method". It works as it should. Thank you for making this video, really took the questions out on how to wire.
Great explanation! I'm replacing a light switch in my bathroom and ran across some questionable wiring. Two wires on one screw on the fan switch with one of them going to the light switch.
I always include a neutral in a switch box. There are some switch devices today that require one and I've seen people use the ground as the neutral leg in these situations causing a dangerous situation down the line for whoever works on that circuit in the future.
I once encountered a BATHROOM (house built in 19:90 in California) that had two switches (one for the lights and one for the exhaust fan), went to replace the light/fan unit, discovered they only ran a single 14 gauge two wire romex to that device and used the black for the light power, the white for the fan power, and the unshielded ground for common for both with NO grounding - talk about confusing and a code violation.
@@ragtowne I've seen a substantially more dangerous hack job while helping my stepfather rewire his 1973 rambler. Aluminum wiring throughout, 70 amp Zinsco panel in a bedroom closet, as can be expected in a home built during that period. The thing that tipped us off was seeing 2 wire 12 gauge landscape lighting wire used to power the 4500 watt 40 gallon electric water heater, dad turned off the main so I could cut the wire so it could be removed and replaced with a proper 10-2 NM and a 2 pole 30 amp toggle switch since the unit wasn't within sight of the panel. I got a loud bang and vaporized about a half inch hole in my side cutters, turns out a previous owner had tapped that landscape light wire on the line side of the main, so that wire which ran in the crawlspace for almost the length of the house had no overload or short circuit protection, other than the primary fuse on the pole. The 3 way switches in the hallway were wired with feed at the light, and 12/2 Aluminum NM was dropped from the light box one to each 3 way switch, metal boxes. They were using the black as the common, and the white and ground as the travellers, with the bare "ground" traveller resting against the metal switch boxes . Since the old galvanized iron water lines were to be replaced with pex pipe anyways, we stripped the house down to the studs and started over from scratch. That was would have been in 2005 and being 16 at the time, found it very educational and rewarding. Sadly that feeling of satisfaction came to a screeching halt when we lost the house to foreclosure in late 2007 because Dad had taken out an adjustable rate mortgage when he brought the place in early 2005 and was unable to afford the mortgage once the introductory APR ended.
@@Sparky-ww5re Moved into our 1945 house with mostly BN wire throughout. Had a problem with the lights dead in the Master Bedroom the first night (we viewed the house twice, in the daytime AND the inspector we paid for never checked the lights and plugs!?!). Took a look in the attic and found the BN cable powering the MB leg had cracked at a bend and bare wires broken through the rubber insulation had parted. Decided rewiring was required. Have gone through about 80 percent of the house and replace all with NM and UF so far, to 2017 code (bought the house in 2015). Added back all the grounds, etc. Still need to replace the switch CB's with AFCI's but that's a big ticket item for a retiree, and with new, copper throughout, not that worried. To your topic, was working on a BN three wire run, to break out light power onto new NM wire, killed the circuit breaker to that light, went to cut the cable and POP, modified my cutters to have the same stripper notch you describe. :-) Found out that the Red wire was being used, not as a three way, but as a piggy back, power wire, to another part of the house on a different (30 amp) breaker. They were using the white neutral for both circuits. One more room left to finish rewiring, the Media (old living room) room, and then we'll be done. It's a shame he had lost the house, People that pushed ARM's should have been jailed or worse. Take Care!!!
Great video! I'm a senior citizen AAS Elect/Mech, NICET III Fire/Burg. Not an electrician. Recently built a new home, I replaced the switches in the 3 bath rooms exhaust fans with switches with timer built-in, boy was I glad to find neutrals in each of the switch boxes. I know enough about house wiring to be cautious, refer to NEC and to subscribe to and watch videos like yours. Thank you.
I recently installed smart thermostats in my unit and there were a lot of interesting choices that were made with the electrical design. One being that some parts of the unit have one neutral being shared between two different circuits on different phases. Which does work, but it's kind of dangerous for amateurs doing electrical work as it means figure out which two circuits are running current through the box rather than just the one. And another one was that since the thermostats that were in use with electric baseboards in the past didn't require a neutral, they didn't provide one in an obvious way. The neutral was still there, it just ran through one of the boxes and just had a connection to split it into two runs one for the heater in one room and another for the heater in the other. It was somewhat fortunate that they were literally back to back, so there wasn't any real fishing of wires required, but it does lead to a bit of confusion and having to reopen the box to mess around with it.
Excellent video. He explained very clearly the wiring and the reasoning. He was straight to the point without any attempts of entertainment which we see in some videos. Good job !!
I have always tied the neutrals together in all my switches and used the std. wiring method in all the 3 and 4 way switches. Done it that way for over thirty years. I never like the loop methods. Nice to know I was doing it correctly.
As an electrician myself, I was already familiar with those two methods of wiring those switches, but I wish you had ALSO shown the other two methods you mentioned, even the now illegal one, because that way I could identify them and (hopefully) be able to fix them if needed! I also know of another way of wiring those switches, kind of combining the switch loop of the single pole you showed, with the "dead end" 3-way circuit you showed, however, since that method ALSO doesn't allow for a neutral in the switch boxes, (UNLESS you use a 3-wire between the light fixture box and the first switch box), so I'm not sure if that method is legal now either, with thenew 2023 code... I guessI need to read up on that!
I will make another video on the other two methods. Stay tuned. I know the method you're talking about. It's rare but I have seen it. Usually done when someone wanted to add a couple of 3-ways to control a light that was originally on a single pole. I'll add that as well.
While I have NOT utilized the 3-conducor switch-loop (as you showed), that's a good alternate way to do it. I figure it'sjust almost easier to just to use the "standard" accepted method: run a 12 or 14-2 feed cable directly to the switch, and then 12/14-2 up the the fixture. Just keeps it simpler, and no need for 3-conductor NM. I have used the "new" dead-end 3-way method quite a lot over the years (using the white wire as an ungrounded conductor), just because it saves a bit of wire-pulling! However, in my way of doing it: I use the black & white wires as my travelers to the second box & switch, with white conductor re-identified as a hot/ungrounded conductor, and then use the red as the "switched return" to the first box/light. I feel this more accurately follows the "old" 12/14-2 switch-loop methodology, where the [re-identified] white was your "hot" feed down to a switch, and the black was the switched-return back to the light fixture. Anyway, always great stuff. Thanks for posting!
I'm not real keen on the NEC, which was established for electrical safety, starting to require things like this. In most cases this will never be used. I really think most people are happy to just turn the light on and off with the wall switch. In the last few years the NEC has taken the code to an extreme, requiring Ground fault protection on equipment that does not substantially need it.....Stoves, ovens, HVAC units, dishwashers and the like. These units are solidly grounded which prevents shock hazard (externally) and would/should be disconnected for service. This whole thing with the NEC smells of influence from manufactures of equipment.
The younger generations love controlling things with their home assistant or with their phones. The issue was that its difficult to get a neutral to the box later and its very easy and inexpensive to do it during the original installation. From a safety standpoint people were connecting the neutral to the ground wire. It would work but create a hazard by having current flow on the ground.
NFPA owns NEC. I was a career firefighter for 23 years. During that time I purchased 4 fire apparatus, fire hose and other items for our department. During that time I learned how NFPA has a seat at the table for manufacturers. They are continually trying to create mandatory short term lives for equipment and the list goes on and on. Luckily in the fire service the AHJ is given the final word, with the NEC many jurisdictions blindly adopt it and the enforcement parties are often thise who have spent Weeks and Weeks (haha) training (as opposed to retired Journeyman electricians)
@@spudth Re: short-term lives. Now that I'm old enough to have bought electronic equipment and have it later fail due to age, I agree that code shouldn't be requiring any devices with an expected lifespan less than 60 years. IMO that should mean no devices that contain electrolytic capacitors or flash/EPROM memory.
Hello, great video, thank you. As a new person to wiring, I have a situation that just recently happened. I have 2 light fixtures on the outside of my detached garage that are controlled by a light switch inside the garage and/or a light switch on my kitchen wall that has a switch for the garage lights and a switch for the patio light. I am not sure which switch connection went bad but the switch in the garage is not turning on/off the garage lights anymore. Where could the problem possibly be? No, nothing has been touched in over 12 years when I had my kitchen remodeled. Thank you.
Check to be sure your breaker isn't tripped. You may be supplying the garage with a GFCI which can trip easily. Then be sure the lights are not burned out. Check to see if power is getting through the switch in the kitchen and that its making its way to the garage switch. Connection issues are very common. Then check that power is getting through your garage switch and be sure to check to neutral so you know you haven't lost that connection either. Last would be the connections at the light.
The NEC code book has been hijacked by the big electrical component manufacturers. It's actually a flagrant, takeover of a once strictly, human safety and industry standards publication. I've been in the business over 40 years and had a longtime friend in the code writing industry in NC. He knew all players and how it changed over the years. He was a very smart man, may he rest in peace. Just my two cents for the day.
Yours is the most incisive comment on any code-related video on You Tube. It is blatantly obvious that code updates are driven solely by the industry’s greed. Code requirements have cost homeowners billions of dollars over the years. If the industry can find a way to charge $100 for a circuit breaker that was $10 a few years ago it will, all under the guise of “safety” when in fact the risks are more theoretical than real. Proof is in the fact that millions of homes built under decades old codes are doing just fine. Careful and proper practices and decent quality products from the 1990s - plus instruction in basic electrical safety for consumers - were all we needed. Instead, we open our wallets wider with every code update.
What are you guys smokin? It's technology that drives this. I have had situations where I couldn't use switches requiring neutrals. I hear your point but there is a lot more going on that encourages code changes. Smart switches, unless your Ted Kazinski and friends, are awesome for so many reasons. Having neutrals at all boxes although is a pain in the ass is nice for adding a receptacle later on and being able to use and switch from the hardware store/ wholesalers.
It's technology that drives this new code I have had situations where I couldn't use switches requiring neutrals . I hear the point of the complainers, but there is a lot more going on that encourages code changes. I used to think the same about tamper proof/ tamper resistant receptacles until I saw my young kid poking at a receptacle the first time. Smart switches, unless your Ted Kazinski and friends, are awesome for so many reasons. Having neutrals at all boxes although is a pain in the ass is nice for adding a receptacle later on and being able to use and switch from the hardware store/ wholesalers.
There are certainly a handful examples of industry driven changes in the NEC, but your statement that the NEC has been hijacked and taken over is just false. If you understood the NEC revision process you'd have a better understanding of changes and how they make their way into the newest edition, thereby allowing you to make an informed opinion instead of a reactionary one.
Very good explanation. My high school teacher (back in 1997) said that was one of the things that most electricians had issues with. I made it a point to learn 3 way/4 way switch wiring like the back of my hand. Great video!
@@OpenCarryUSMCjust wait to hear about how we have to use pop up outlets in islands now because kids were getting hurt. It definitely has nothing to do with those outlets costing $60-$500 a piece. It’s like gfcis in wet locations; if you’re worried about people being electrocuted by standing in water make all surfaces on electric devices and appliances in wet locations nonconductive. Unless you’re really special the only path to ground in a kitchen that the average homeowner is going to come to contact with are conductive surfaces on their appliances or the metal plate screws. So why is that not required but in the 2024 code cycle I now I have to gfci protect fridges, microwaves and stoves? Oh yeah money. If I’m purchasing a minimum of 9 gfcis per house and they have a 1 in 8 failure rate according to Mike Holt then I have to replace at least 1 per house. But wait if they all have to be afgfci besides the bath and weather proof they’re getting a minimum of $362.14 per job not including replacement. Isn’t it funny how a 100 pack of nonconductive plate screws only costs $21 and miraculously is not required by code in wet locations? Surely the people who write code care more about our lives and less about robbing us blind
@@678friedbed hey, when I was 5 years old my electronics project kit had me build a radio and then for an antenna I was instructed to plug a blade terminated wire into “the long slot” of a two or three prong electrical outlet. Yeah, that was 1966, I survived but can you imagine trying to get that past the liability lawyers at a major electronics kit and components company today? God forbid Johnny files down the blade so it will go into the short slot and the company ends up in front of a jury. Darwin just isn’t allowed to work any more.
There was a dead end 3 way on my stairs. I was planning on putting a wifi switch at the bottom of the stairs. When I opened the box there was no neutral. So the wifi switch was put upstairs. I always wondered if that was code compliant. Good to see that it is.
Just ignore those pesky codes and do it the fail safe old school way. Forget inspections, they cost money and you were doing this job yourself to save money in the first place. 😁
the only thing i thought he might have explained is that additional 4 ways can be added endlessly. all in all a lesson I would give the teacher a A+ for.
It only applies to new construction and only once your state adapts the 2023 code. The issue has been that in the absence of a neutral wire people connect to the ground wire creating a safety hazard. I always wire with the neutral in the switch box anyway so for many people of us it's a non issue.
From my experience, the only people whose lives will be made miserable by this change are people who run their hot conductor to the fixture instead of to the switch. But in my experience of having never actually encountered that type of wiring I have to say this rule change won't affect that many people.
These past few code videos you’ve posted are among the best teaching videos I’ve ever watched on Electrician RUclips. New subscriber, I look forward to more of your excellent, easy to understand content. If this were feedback on eBay, I’d say “A++ seller, highly recommended!!”
If it's to do with NEC/NFPA/OSHA things affecting life safety, it either means something bad happened and this the cure, or they identified the potential for something bad happening and incorporated it into code because enough people thought it made sense. It's not like they're making you go back and change stuff made to earlier codes unless it's a renovation.
No, it's ment specifically to prevent people from using the ground as a neutral for smart switches. Ever been whacked on a neutral under load? It hurts more than getting whacked by 277. Ask me how I know.
Why in 2024 are we running all this expensive Romex to wall switches? Why hasn't the industry gone to low voltage communicating switches and just taking power to outlets and fixtures? Material cost would go down, labor would go down, and flexibility would go through the roof.
Maybe because it allows more options for future upgrades. For example if needing to add an electrical outlet or other powered device, hot neutral and ground could be obtained from a switch box if nothing else in the area is available. Reason 2 simplicity and reliability of not using relays/contactors when a single pole switch could be used. I realize those aren't super strong arguments but since when does the NEC use solid reasoning for everything
That is what I am doing on my current project . Centralized power conversion to low voltage . And running LV wire to all switches and lights which include communications.
Switches are incredibly durable and, being inside a junction box within a wall, rarely need replacement. In the event one does need to be replaced, you need to kill the breaker. (Depending on local codes, this can be a massive pain.) Light fixtures are (usually) fully exposed - not only are they more vulnerable to damage, but also frequently changed for aesthetic reasons. This is in addition to using fragile bulbs which need regular replacement and sometimes break in a manner which exposes live voltage. This is why live voltage is run only to switches and outlets - NOT to fixtures. When the switch is turned off, there is ZERO voltage going to the fixture(s).
@@guri256 With rare exceptions (like most kitchens), each breaker controls an entire room. Clocks, TVs, computers, and everything else in the room running on AC is going down/out when you turn off the breaker. Assuming, of course, that you flip the right breaker the first time - breakers are commonly mislabeled, assuming that they're even labeled in the first place. Even if you live by yourself (no kids to complain about not being able to play video games, partner to be upset about not being able to use their computer, all of them complaining because the internet is off, etc), it can be a real hassle to get everything back up and running, clocks reset, etc. Add to this the operating assumption that nothing ever goes 100% as planned (particularly when it involves working on someone else's work), you can see how quickly a 'simple repair' can turn into a massive headache.
In the dead end three way, if you needed a neutral for any reason in the last switch, you could run an NM 14/4 which has Black, Red, blue white and ground. Expensive stuff if you don't need it that much but u could run 14/4 between the switches to bring in the neutral. It would also save re-identifying the white wire. Again, not required, but an option. In a job site where there's 120/208 there may be some of that NM or MC cable around. In conduit, easy peasy to run a blue wire.
It actually is about safety. If you have a neutral wire you won’t connect the neutral wire on the switch to ground creating a hazard. Similar to requiring receptacles every 12 feet to keep people from using extension cords. It’s about safe and adequate insulations for the consumer and nothing else.
Go to electrical school if you want to know, it's about saftey. Needing a neutral is not only for saftey but also allows for future switches that may be installed.
@@leif901-5 it’s about money, control, and power. Nothing to do with actual safety for people. Who do you think profits from wifi connected smart light switches? Not regular people.
This is absolutely about SAFETY. It is more evident in commercial settings, where the color of conductors can be a factor and upgrades to facilities (i.e. added devices/ loads) require better more than just what was standard decades ago. This will also save homeowners thousands of $ because they won't have to demo finished material just to add a few devices. Just because someone benefits monetarily from a change doesn't mean that the change was for money.
I think I got it. I need to remove a 3 way switch and was hoping this would help me suss it out. I'll start by figuring out which set of the wires is the lead and which is the leg.
Seriously. I'm an amateur, just learning to diy electrical, and I think switch loops are ridiculous. Just ripped out a couple switch loops and replaced with 2023 NEC code compliant wiring, without even knowing the new code, because Duh???
So if the breaker panel is on the north side of a room and the switch is on the south side to control a light on the north side of the room, you want me to run two different 12/2 cables all the way across the room? Sorry, that is silly. You just run a dead end, and usually I would wire it with 12/3 just in case I wanted the neutral there for some later rework. This change to the code just makes this previous nice to have a requirement.
I just don’t understand why you just don’t run a 3 wire to the switch and you have the neutral wire in the box if you need it and you are only running one cable
As @sdkee said, this can require many feet of extra wire in the current carrying path. It also puts an extra splice in the load's neutral and ground connections. For some switched loads this might drop too much voltage or waste too much power. For all, it adds copper cost.
This is a good change. IMHO, there should always have been a neutral available at the switch for future expansion. It's not necessarily trivial since you probably won't have a box large enough for an extra outlet, but there's plenty of places where future use makes it helpful to have a spare outlet where a switch alone was appropriate.
Good video. I'm a former electrician/contractor. Good to learn the new rule. Given this, and the cost of wire these days, I'm wondering if relay switching is becoming more popular for basic residential installations. I.e., no exotic control systems, just basic residential. Seems it might have an edge in the current market.
Thanks for the video. I’m a retired active duty then AF civil service electrician. I miss code update classes since retiring and am getting ready to wire an auxiliary building on my property and this is good to hear. Though Im going to use conduit and will be able to fish a wire to anywhere if needed I’m just going to put it in from the start. Makes me wonder what other changes I may be ignorant about. Thanks again.
Thanks for sharing! And thanks for your service. 🇺🇸 I was thinking maybe do a 2-3 minute code change video each week or so but I haven't decided if people will be interested in that or not. I was in the AF a long time ago back in the 80s. I was in CE and was stationed at McClellan AFB in Sacramento CA. The base only had about 4000 military but there were about 25,000 civil service employees at the time. I had some great teachers there.
@@BackyardMaine Well thank you for your service as well. Your generation of AF electricians and Civilians are who gave me the best foundation a young electrician could ask for. I cross trained into the electrical field in 85 and my first base was Wright Patterson. It was the same make up as you described mostly civilian. I would definitely be interested in your code updates if you should decide to do them. You wouldn’t have to go in great detail and I think most people like me would understand them if they were simply a gloss over changes. Whatever you decide thank you for sharing what you do share.
I’ve always sent the feed to the switch box first when wiring in NMB, AC or MC, so this code change isn’t much of a trauma to me. I think they should’ve modified the exception to allow a switch feed loop in conduit though. Great explanation!
For me, as old as I am, never going to ever wire anything again. Its just nice to remind ones self what was involved. For people who worried about their homes..... I say if it was done in say the last five years and no issues, no need to worry but if there are problems going on, time to revisit all of the wiring. Any wiring thats twenty plus would probably fail but yet if it is still working right. Its a leave it alone as the cost of rewiring a home that old will be not only very expensive, most likely be more than that home is valued at. There of course many other things to consider as age or historic, etc., that determines to do or not. Just trying to keep this comment short... loved this video as its very easy to follow
For the dead-end 3-way, you install a smart switch in the Leg as follows: use two conductors of the traveler to send power/neutral to the leg's j-box. Use this to power the smart switch. The third conductor in the traveler goes from the leg's smart slave switch to the "slave" input of the smart switch in the line location. Leave a note and diagram in the j-box for the confused electrician who comes along years after you're gone. Problem is, the smart switches stopped having the "slave" wire on many of the models. I don't recall if there are more expensive models, but you can just forget the 3-way and use a X-10 switch that commands the first one; similarly for newer command systems. That means running the power/neutral to it but not using the 3rd wire.
At 2:08 I’ve been wiring since I was eight years old. But for many years now I don’t cut the common nor ground while wiring a switch. I loop the ground wire around switch’s ground and fold balance of that grounding wire to back of switch box. The common doesn’t get cut and is simple folded to back of stitches box! This way I never worry about a connection that could fail! The black “Hot” cut and install on switch properly! Oh forgot I’m 70 now!
We used to wire two 3-ways another way. Sort of like the dead end style but the light is in the middle of the traveler wires (like where a 4-way switch would be). White wire in traveler from the feed 3-way is the neutral for the light, white wire from the dead end 3-way is re-identified hot wire for the light. We did some tract homes back in the day where this was convienient because there was a two story plan that had a wall light for the staircase, and it was right in the path or the traveler wire going between the switches. Of course this would only work if there was only one light fixture (although if there were more than one light you could just take a two wire from the first light to the rest). Then there is where you run the hot wire and the switch leg to a 4-way in the middle, then the 2 3-ways can both be dead ends.
A very good presentation, thanks. I always forget how to wire 3 way switches no matter how many I do, if I don't do these often enough. My lights are completely different in that my switch boxes carry no current at all. Mine have no hot, no neutral & no ground. They have two bell wires in them that lead to the grey terminals of Sonoff Mini R2 smart WiFi controllers. These terminals only sense a change in ground of the logic chip, and still utilizes the traditional wall light switch to control the light. Lights can be controlled via the app, voice, wall switch, routines and timers. This method will not allow dimmers to function. I have one lamp in each room with dimming function that is smart. I chose this option due to the high cost of wire, having a huge 19 room - 90 year old home. Not only did I not have a neutral, had cloth wire, and I didn't even have a ground.
You've made this easier for me to understand for sure. I could not diagram it out without watching this video multiple times. But for a first time viewing it was very very clear.
200.7 in the code does allow the re-identifying of a white wire for single pole, 3-way and 4-way light switch loops but I have found some inspectors will not allow this so I never do it.
@@BackyardMaine Do they ever give you a Code based reason? It drives me crazy when inspectors enforce personal rules and not strict adherence to the NEC!
There's another area of the code that prohibits re-identifying smaller conductors. I think it's smaller than 8AWG.. I'd have to look it up. I prefer wiring methods where I don't need to do this anyway so for me its not a concern. @@djcip1
Good explanation except in a dead end 3way we always do red & white travelers & black common since switching is only allowed on Phase conductors the white is used as a traveler instead of reidentified & used as a switched common.
Great video, as always. Clear explanations with just the right amount of "why." Also, good job keeping the grey techniques (e.g., California method) in separate videos from the green stuff so people passing through trying to work on their first switching project won't accidentally misremember or happenstance skip into the "what not to do" portions of videos.
What a great comment.. Thank you. When I read comments like yours it motivates me to make more videos. I actually have another video of a not "very common method" for wiring 3-way switches going live this evening. I call it the double dead end 3-way because both switches are dead ended. Thanks again.
I have always called the black screws the power in/out screws in my head and when I have explained it to other people. Europeans generally call a 3-way switch or a 3-way pneumatic/hydraulic valve a 2-way which I really think makes more sense because the power only has two paths. They also referred to a 4-way switch as a slap switch or a cross switch which I also think is accurate. So many descriptions explaining the same concept.
i used to do a bit of this at my last plant before i moved to a new automotive plant but havent done much in the last 4-5 years. i always ran my power to the switch first probably because i worked with ladder logic more so than this general receptacle/outlet/switch wiring so it just seemed smartest to run my power to the switch before anything else
@@truthsayers8725 Before I left we upgrade our RODI water plant for SLC 500 to RSLogic. It was a nightmare because the plant runs 24x7 We bring everything over in little pieces and TIs risk tolerance for an unexpected shutdown was 0%.
Just ran into this today the light switch had no neutral to go to the ceiling fan I wanted to install. I have to go and tap another circuit for a neutral pain in the butt. Thanks
You obviously haven't been around that long, as 14 2 2 hasn't always been available. It's a newer concept, being absolutely ridiculously overpriced. So for you amateur wannabe sparkys, you don't tear your walls open, you install smart bulbs or lamps. If you can't figure things like 3 and 4 way switches out, hire an electrician that has proven himself with 8000 proven hours before they can call himself or herself an electrical journeyman!. Next thing you know all you geniuses will be attempting service upgrades by watching RUclips. Good way to end up crispy critters.
@@jimfee2753 I’m sorry , only got 29 years behind me as electrician and 14/2/2 has been around for over 15 years , good named supply house stock it like 12/2/2 , but good luck to find it in hardware store .
@@jimfee2753 you’re probably right , I only got 32 years of electrical work experience behind me , and I’ve been using 14/2/2 and 12/2/2 for at least over 15 years since the NEC rule about carrying the neutral/grounded wire isn’t that new .
Very clearly explained! Thanks. I think up in Canada, their CEC requires neutral at all 3- and 4-way locations, I don't think they've carved out an exception like the NEC has.
@@KjKase Without changing where the wiring goes, you'll never need it. Only one of the switches will have the relay that switches the load; this frees up the travellers to feed live and neutral to all other boxes to power the "send command only" smart switches.
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Other Video Links here>> California 3-Way - ruclips.net/video/AeXFe5ghmKQ/видео.html Chicago 3-Way - ruclips.net/video/Ky48x6LxuYA/видео.html
The reason you only need ONE box with the neutral is bcuz dimmer switches at the moment can't communicate with one another- if my case is ever heard I will rectify that... hence you can ONLY HAVE ONE DIMMER on a 3-way switching system. Eventually you will simply require a NEUTRAL at all switch locations... we aren't there yet!
I worked as an apprentice with a journeyman for 3 years doing electrical wiring, mostly light receptacles, switches, and plug ins, still doing minor electrical for property owners around where I live it's a great little income
I got an eerie feeling during the description of the 3-way and 4-way circuits. Then I realized my father had described this to me in almost exactly the same way in nearly the exact same words when I was a kid... 60 years ago. Great explanation, great channel.
I started as an electrical helper when I was a teen, learned 3-ways & 4-ways from the guy I worked for which was in his 60's then. Been state licensed since 1993, electrical contractor for many years and over 20 years as an engineer. Still show 3-ways & 4-ways wired this way.
@@chrism2042 I started out in pinballs and juke boxes.
Year did 12 wire become code in 3 and 4 way?
@@chrism2042 my brain got overloaded almost immediately listening to this. I know more than the average guy about electrical, but never could grasp these things.
Don't wire the house you sleep in, call a electrician if you want to wake up in the morning and have confidence that your house won't burn down while sleeping
😂😊😊😊😊
I really enjoy this channel. Very easy to understand, no swearing, code updates, just great overall!!
I did want to mention that I just wired a 4-way switch and it had 2 black screws and 2 gold screws.
Thanks for the video!
Oh no, not swear words! Those are the fucking worst!
@@Omniverse0 No. The worst is the inability to communicate in an educated way. Thanks BM.
I have installed many complicated four-way circuits and three-way circuits in properties, I always draw it out, most of these have included conduit and Romex wiring, so if you have a complicated switch locations just draw it all out and start connecting the dots then figure out how many wires you need between each point and how you’re going to get them there, for example you have a four-way circuit that might have four switches, one by the back sliding door, one out on the patio somewhere in a wall, one upstairs in the bedroom and another by the gate coming into the backyard this is a complex circuit Only in the fact that you will have to figure out how to get all the wire from where it needs to go and then to all the different lighting just draw it out start figuring out your runs and it’s very simple at that point
The hardest part is FINDING a 4-way switch! Most of the hardwares stores here don't have them...except for that ONE odd store that's the furthest away.
@@TonyP9279 Well yeah that would suck, if you don’t have an electrical supply house or a big box store, I guess the only answer there is to keep a few on hand
@@TonyP9279 Well you could use two 3-ways in a double box to get 4-way functionality . Link them with their commons together .
@@TonyP9279 Or I suppose you could try to tell them that odd numbers of switch locations have been outlawed . So you need to install 4 locations ... thereby you can use only 3 way switches . With the 2 middle of the line ones , being only connected with a single conductor on their commons . Hehe lol .
But then of course can just wire nut the two travelers till the 4-way shows up in the mail .
Edit: Scratch that about four 3-way switches being able to work . Was before enough morning coffee and thought I was being clever . Ya obviously the 2 switch combo won't let power through for the last leg switch position to function for turning the light on ... Duh :\
Three way and four way circuits are easy if you remember that one end of the circuit will have the power feed and the other end has the switch leg. All wires between the switches are travelers. Red and black wires are the travelers using 3 wire Romex.Tie neutrals together and tie grounds together. Stuff in the rear of the outlet box. I can do these type of circuits without even thinking.
Thanks for the explanation!
When I was a teenager, I figured out the three-way wiring schematic for the SPDT switches. Now, decades later, I couldn't figure it out in several tries. The diagrams are a huge help.
What I have done to retain memory of how Three and Four way wiring systems work is to make a working model of one on a panel of plywood. The model even has a breaker box with breakers on it. The breaker box simply plugs into an outlet for power. This gives me a micro model to view when my memory on how to wire things up starts to fade. The model actually works and turns on a light bulb from two different switches. To make the models I go to Menards and buy and use the actual wire, gang boxes, outlets, bulb receptacle, breaker box with breakers that one would use in a house. Each model costs me about $45 to make. The breaker box alone is about a $20 cost. I just use a small two breaker box. Not a full sized one. I bolt the model to a wall, plug the models breaker box into an outlet and actually use it at times for lighting. I also make a very detailed color drawing on graph paper of the model's wiring system that is mounted on the wall next to the model. Is great to have when teaching my grandkids about electrical wiring concepts.
@@normtheteacher5485 I think that you could get away with a much less expensive design with some LEDs, resistors to limit current, and some SPDT switches with a battery. Three Way Light Switches are literally just big SPDTs. But, they wouldn't work well for actual lighting. They would however, make for a better demonstration of how the circuit works, if you put LEDs on each of the two legs, to demonstrate where the power was flowing at the time.
@@javabeanz8549 yes, that would be cheaper but I wanted to use the actual materials that one would use in a house. I even use the actual type of wire that one would use. That way my kids don't have to mentally transfer the led model into an actual house model. To me the extra expense is worth making the learning more effective. Thanks for your suggestion and for watching. Your right though, it would be cheaper. Unfortunately there are no more Radio Shacks where I used to get electronic parts for experimentation.
@normtheteacher5485 Yes, most of the Radio Shack stores and other little shops like it are gone. Though eBay and Amazon have parts, though you can buy a whole bag of parts from a big supplier for about the same price as a handful. And if you intend on the kids doing the actual wiring, yes, that's the better option. Maybe some neon bulbs to show where the power is hot at the switches.
This is exactly what RUclips is great for. Thank you for the great video.
Thank you!
Thank you very much John. This is probably the easiest to follow explanation of 3-way switch wiring I have seen on RUclips.
Thank you.. Glad it was helpful..
I Agee. Very good explanation
DITTOOOOOO
Finally, a well done explanation. Thank you very much.!
You are very welcome.. @@yvesduranceau123
Learn something new every day. In the five houses I've lived in (including my folks' house built in 1957) I never saw a two wire loop. Ever. The fourth house was built in 1973 and at that time the area was in the county miles from the city it was a suburb of. Whoever wired it learned on 12v negative ground systems bc the neutral in the entire home was the black wire. Plus they consistently cut off the ground wire. And the icing on the cake? Aluminum wiring. I did research on aluminum wiring. The history of aluminum wiring and its shortcomings are interesting.
Excellent video. My jurisdiction is 10 years behind the current code and the inspector is more concerned with the lenght of ground wires than the absence of a neutral. People who pull homeowner permits don't realize problems they will encounter if they want to take advantage of new technology and this video is exceptional.
Thanks so much.
This old retired electrician is still old school. Don't need smart switches.
@@johnirwin1837 I don't need them now. But I'm 73 years old and want the house I'm remodeling to be my forever home. Smart switch technology will allow me to operate all of the electronics from anywhere. I'm also putting in curbless showers, wider doors, hardwood floors, lever door handles, and pull down kitchen shelves. Plus, the 2023 code requires that the wiring meet the current code if the walls are open and exposed which they are.
@@johnirwin1837 Some smart switches are nice for scheduling lighting on-off times (and brightness), particularly for exterior lights.
@@rickgilbrt True, but I am still old school and old so I won't be using them in my next little wiring project. In 10 to 15 years if the next guy wants them they can install them on their dime.
This was a great explanation of the latest changes in those parts of the National Electrical Code that are going to affect most homeowners and DIYers. Thanks for taking the time to carefully explain the material and thanks to AG1 for being a sponsor.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching.
Funny, I wired my house 15 years ago using 14-3 for switch legs ONLY because I didn’t like the neutral becoming part of the hot circuit. In the whole house I only had one fixture like that and only because I goofed when running the line wire to the fixture box. All others I made the effort to avoid that scenario. Still not sure what I was thinking that day. It was easier to run the 14-3 switch leg than rework the fixture feed.
Excellent video and VERY clear.
When roughing in a house I prefer to run the feed into the switch box, then run the two wire cable to the light fixture. Though I have wired switch loops using 3 wire plus ground cable in certain situations, usually in renovations when I need to add a switch a pull chain style luminaire while doing minimal drywall damage.
I'd like to see you finish this video with another video demonstrating the Chicago and California methods. You just earned a new subscriber
Ive been hearing that in the comments. I'll make another video.
Don't show these guys the suicide 3 way please. You're going to really get someone hurt. You've shown all that they need. If they want to know more they need to do an apprenticeship. Someone's gonna get hurt.
I've always preferred the feed-through method. When my father reorganized his candle making business 30 years ago, I wired his production and supply areas with six different zones using feed-through, and everything works perfectly to this day. Now I'm looking at rewiring the laundry room in our own 1941 house, and will be replacing the existing loops with feed-through. It will be easy compared to the next job of putting grounded outlets on the second floor though!
That is the best description of iow to 3 and 4 ways. I've done them before but always takes me longer to watch the videos 4 times than actuslly wire it in.
Yours was clear and concise
Thank you sir.. I do my best.
Yeah, I finally understand how to wire a three-way after watching this!
I like to print-out the best representation of the way I wired a 3- or 4-way loop and tuck copies in each switchbox or by the cellar lamp, where The Next Guy is sure to find it.
"always takes me longer to watch the videos 4 times than actually wire it in." True that. I learn better from well-drawn drawings. Although that could mean flipping every wiring book in the library, cuz some are/were just awful. Now books are going out of style. BM's video is pretty good, and I thank him for that. But if you go to a yard sale for deals on workpants or moosetraps, see if they have 50-cent wiring books.
In my world (mostly industrial), there were two ABSOLUTE RULES, for switch circuits. ONE, that you ALWAYS feet the top of Switching Devices and take Switch Legs from the bottom. As you showed the switch with the three conductor upgrade, the Red Switch Leg was on Top. TWO, you carry the Black as Hot all the way to the TOP of the switch and then Black Tape the White Switch Leg back to the Feed to the fixture, for what we refer to as the Light Feed method (as opposed to the Switch Feed Method).
When I used to teach these things in an industrial trade school (1970s), we used a simple but descriptive method for referring to the various switch and fixture combinations. The first designation was the point where the Hot Feed was present. Example: Switch - Light, Switch - Switch - Light, Switch - Light - Switch, Light - Switch - Switch - Switch, etc. My students left knowing how to wire all of them using this terminology (they didn't need to remember which state they were in).
One last point that was not mentioned. One of my vary first residential jobs was for an elderly lady who complained that she had trouble at night, turning all the appropriate light switches on and or off. I told her that I could arrange every switch so that she could just walk through the house and push every switch down. Over the years, I probably had 50 such requests from all of her friends. I never leave a job without such switch treatment. Hint: As you drew the Three way circuit (travelers - top to top and bottom to bottom, one switch would always be Up and One would always be Down when the Light is Out, hence I "X" the travelers to achieve Both Down = Off (for the elderly ladies of the world)...
I'm not an electrician but a retired EE who designed RADAR transmitters, it seems to me that running a neutral to every box during construction is a small cost with huge benefits in the future. We always designed "spares" into every wire harness and control panel.
I was an EE as well before I retired. Spares are a must for industrial applications. I think it's a best practice to feed the switch first. Not only does that leave a neutral should you ever need one but also allows you to add a receptacle at the switch or even right below it if needed with minimal effort.
Builders are cheap. Real cheap. Really really cheap. How cheap? At their circumcision they didn’t leave a tip!
And I’m also an EE as well
Also EE, industrial electrical is among the most premium work. Residential home electrical are on the other end of the market.
I’ve watched so many videos on installing three way light switches & this is the best execution of explanation all options, the function of each variants & code compliance
I’m not licensed, but I just want to do things on my residential. I wanna know all codes & do it correctly, I spare no expense when it comes to safety & doing it correctly, so your videos make me feel relieved. I used to be a firefighter, but I’m not an overworked & underpaid ER nurse so on my days off I try to keep busy with home projects since I’m poor & can’t pay for a complete overhaul at once
Appreciate your time & quality of videos!
Thank you. That’s why I try to make it easier to understand. You’re a hero for being a firefighter and a nurse.
Good stuff! But I want to hear about the Chicago and California methods! (So I don't do them, of course!) 🙂
Coming soon! I just scripted the Chicago 3-way video and will work on recording tomorrow. Stay tuned.
@@BackyardMaine Looking forward to it! Thank you!
Excellent explanation of both the proper way to wire a single pole and three-way switch, but also the changes resulting from the code changes!
Thank you..
Nice explanation. Never heard of a Chicago 3way or a California 3way. would loved to have heard what they were. Checked and found another RUclips video that described them.
The Chicago includes a Tommy gun and the California an emissions test, right?😮
@@greatnew_products7436
That certainly would fit with Chicago being ❌ and California being ❔
That was easily the clearest diagram/explanation of a 4 way installation. I have that same setup in my home. I spent some time with the 3 switch boxes open trying to figure out what they did. My reason was to install a dimmer. SW1 is the correct switch to replace with the dimmer. I mostly guessed which was SW1 vs SW3 because SW1 was far closer to the load panel. I know I could test with meter to verify and I will before installing the dimmer (future project). Sometimes just looking in boxes is hard to figure what they did. My house was built in 1991 and the electrician was cheap with romex, pretty much always the shortest path possible. You should see my attic, it looks like a spider ran the wiring. They also combined light circuits with receptacles, that may be to code but I don't like it much. When I bought the house, I replaced all the old style toggle switches with rockers.
Going to the switch first, then the light, seems the most logical method. It keeps the wire colors consistent so the homeowner can easily tell what's what if they ever change out switches or lights.
That's relatively unimportant. The important part is that you lose neutral at the light switch, making it a HUGE pain in the ass, and IMO, has always been a hard NO. but, 90% of electricians past and present suck and I wouldn't trust them to ever do any of my electrical work.
I've never understood the logic of wiring the power to the fixture, then running a cable to the switch. Much more logical to do as you say.
@@r7boatguySaves money, time, and wire. That being said I wouldn’t do it in my own house. All my switches were wired that way when I got the place, most of them been replaced now. I did just help a friend completely rewire his house and we did the switches with no neutral. He was more concerned with money and wire.
No I always feed the hot and neutral at the light box it's much easier in Florida since we have no basements. All the wires come down from the attic. You would use more wire feeding the hot and neutral at the switch location. You would have double wire going back to the light. 73 feeding wires down a wall are always a chore. 73
@espressomatic so what you are saying is you are the god of electricity. What a rube.
We used to refer to those 2 different ways to wire a 3-way as:
1.Take the neutral to the light; or
2. Feed the farthest switch first.
Good way to remember them. Which one to choose depends on how the circuit is run.
Nice video. Thanks.
Thanks for sharing
Great video, however, I was hoping you'd show the wiring for the California switch setup and for the Chicago switch setup and descibe why they're not code compliant, thanks
California three way has no neutral at any switch. And a Chicago three way can have power at the light even when it's off or also reverse polarity
I was curious too and looked them up. Chicago has two separate connections to the light and both switch hot and neutral. If it's neutral from both or hot from both (!) then the light is off. California just switches the hot but has three travelers, with T1, T2, and common all wired together. T2 goes to the hot side of the light and T1 goes to the hot. Neutral goes to the light.
@@Melds This apparently is also called Carter three way. It was banned a hundred years ago. Sin short the witches were reversed so that the power came (to both) from the side with two contacts and the sides with one contact went to the light. Since it was the knob and tube era with single wire cables that made some sense though the risk is obvious. With modern cables that would make no sense at all.
Great suggestion! I'll make a video on those two methods as well.
@@BackyardMaine Thanks, you're videos are very helpful, also, I know the code also says that all outlets, gfci not withstanding, have to be replaced with the arc fault circuit type, hopefully you can do a video on that as well
This is the best explanation for wiring 3 way switches I have ever seen. As a DYI I usually struggle wiring 3 ways but your explanation clicked. Thank you for the excellent content and teaching.
I
Thank you. Glad to help you out.
Don't know if it's code compliant or not but electrically that dead-end switch circuit can be extended. Just replace SW2 with a 4-way and move the 3-way over to the new SW3 location and run your wire from SW2 to the SW3 location.
Something that always used to confuse me because I cane from an electronics background and knew what was actually inside the 3-way and 4-way switches. 3-way is a SPDT and the 4-way is a DPDT switch wired as a reverser internally.
Yup you can do that but you're still just extending the switched power which will have to get back to switch one to actually turn on your light.
Does the 4-way still have a neutral this way?
And another interesting note is in Europe a 3-way switch is called a 2-way switch which if you think about it makes much more sense.
@@stargazer7644if true, Europe is basing the name off of the number of locations, while here in the States we base it off of the number of wires required for the switch to function. A 3-way switch will always and only function with 3 wires. 4-ways will always and only function with 4 wires.
If you wanted you can have 20 switches to work a single light. All it would take are 2 3-ways and 18 4-ways.
@@TheForgottenMan270 So why is the word "way" included? I rather think Europeans call them 2 way switches because the switch selects one of two ways current can go out of the switch. American 4 way switches are called intermediate switches in Europe, not 3 way switches.
The Algo sent me here for some reason. I'm an 01 Electrician (commercial/industrial) and just did this work in my garage.
3 cheap fixtures -> 12 LED
1 switch -> 2x 3-way
Split some lights off for task lighting controlled by SP switch near their respective doors.
While I'm not interested in any smart devices where my garage lights are concerned, there are cases where a future home owner might. For instance, smart switching can be part of a disability accommodation where mobility or reach is limited. Regardless, neutrals at the switch location is both code compliant and a good idea.
That being said, if I had to tear down any finish work to preserve or add a neutral, I'd skip it. This is a choice I make in my own home. Fortunately, an electrician can get a lot done by adding a junction box. By doing this, there is no longer a need to bring the neutral back out of the switch box. That return neutral conductor is now a free agent!
Like others have said, REIDENTIFY YOUR WIRES when necessary. Phase tape comes in all the colors.
Stay safe!
New to your channel, and you enticed me with options 1 and 2 that are not compliant but you didn't explain. Leading me to look them both up. They are marvelous rube goldberg class craziness! Best when used with knob and tubes, I bet, for that extra zing.
Seriously, thanks for a great video.
I'll make another video showing the Chicago and California methods. I didn't want to confuse anyone.
Extra zing, indeed!
9:45 now I finally understand how 3 ways work. I've replaced alot but just match the old and new without a true understanding until just now. Thanks for the clear presentation.
Great to hear!
Is it required to use 12-2 for a 3-way light switch?
Well done video! Same question though - why 12 gauge wire for lighting circuit?
Not required if the circuit breaker is 15A or less.
4/2 if fine if on a 15A circuit breaker. I didn't want to say 14/2 and have someone connect that to a 20A circuit.
4/2 if fine if on a 15A circuit breaker. I didn't want to say 14/2 and have someone connect that to a 20A circuit.
You should say that the switches need to be rated at 20 amps if it's on a 20 amp breaker. #12 wire isn't required, and most lighting is on 15 amp circuits. Which will save money on the switches, breakers, and wiring.
I was SO happy to find neutral in the light switch in my toilet room off my master bath (it's got the toilet in it's own little room). There were two single space switches in a double box there - one for light and one for fan.
I was able to replace the two switches with a single-space double switch (not sure what the name is) and use the second space for a GFCI outlet. This lets me plug in a nightlight, and a phone charger. I don't use the phone charger often, but when prepping for my colonoscopy it was a lifesaver.
It would also be the only way to power one of those fancy bidets if I (or a future homeowner) ever wanted one.
Point being - having full power available is nice for more than home automation!
You are right. Have a neutral wire is the best way to go especially if you ever need to expand the circuit. Thanks for helping support the channel. 👍👍
Thanks for the video! That was very helpful. I always get confused about 3 ways for some reason. But that made a lot of sense. Thank You!!
Thank you.. Glad to help.
thank you for info on ag1 love the video also can u tell me what paint color name if you have it thank you behind you gray and beige 4:43
Thank you! Glad you liked the video.. The paint is Valspar from Lowes. The beige is called Oregon Coast Interior Eggshell. The Gray is called Notre Dame Interior Eggshell. The colors were bought about 15 years ago so I'm not sure if they are offered by the same name today. I have leftover paint so I was able to get the colors for you. Hope this helps.
Finally, thank goodness, I have always wired like this any way,poor to the switch box first it makes for easy trouble shooting also.The first time I ever noticed a two wire to the switch box like that was when I came to the high desert and troubleshooting shooting cheap spec homes, these cheap contractors trying to save three feet of romex .
I never saw a marker for the hot line with the bare wire running in the baseboard. ahhh those were the days..... Don't have to strip the insulation off when you sell the copper.
I’m a green apprentice and just want to say thank you for your videos. very easy to follow and informative.
That’s awesome. Thank you and good luck on your career.
Thanks for reassuring the correct way to wire a single pole, 3-way, and 4-way switch
My dining room light is wired with the dead end 3-way wiring. Which annoys me because I wanted to put a new switch that requires a neutral at the dead end location but there is no neutral there so I couldn't. I got a different dimmer switch that didn't require a neutral in the end.
Very good explanation and glad to hear about the code change which I hadn't heard about. I typically used 3 conductors plus ground cable for travelers between two 3-ways, and between 3-way and 4-way switches, because I disliked reidentification of neutral conductors.
One of the best explanations I've seen. Thank you
Thank you..
Thanks!
Thanks you so much for subscribing, watching my videos and for helping support the channel. Much appreciated my friend.
@@BackyardMaine you're welcome. Great job explaining everything.
@@brucehull2455 I love hearing that.. Thank you. I am for sure my own worst critic.
Go to drinkag1.com/backyardmaine to get your FREE welcome kit that includes the canister, shaker, a year supply of vitamin d3k2, and 5 extra travel packs of AG1! Thanks to AG1 for sponsoring today’s video!
wow you almost made it a full 60 seconds before screwing this up. First it was NEVER legal to reflag any conductor less than #6 under the code period. Second white is not nor ever has been the designation of "neutrals" white has always had the designation "grounded current carrier" and had a specific exception for this application therefor no reflagging of the white conductor in this configuration was implied or proper even if the wire were #6 (you only ever mark some other color TO white NEVER white to something else EVER PERIOD don't do it it is a mistake. The same is true for green and the section on marking is VERY detailed and exact in this regard with shall and must playing a large part in the descriptions and circumstances listed)
As to the change? it is moot to me , my experience is that wiremen have been feeding at the switch or even home running from such boxes for 50 years or more as simply good practice and rarely if ever used switch loops and only in closets and crawl spaces where the use of powered devices is uncommon...also this change does not solve the grandfathered installations none of which are required to be upgraded to meet this code so the problem still exists and will always exist in some capacity.
But are you being paid by this product to promote it? Be aware of the legal troubles Dave Ramsey is in for not letting his many followers that trust him to promote products know that he is also paid by the companies that are being promoted. Just a helpful tip as you are very helpful to us here in video land!
Thanks.. I have to be careful. I'm covered by the paid promotion text at the top of the video screen and of course I have to say that this video is sponsored by whom ever is paying me to promote a product. @@mostthoughtprovoking
Why would people run a switch loop when power can be feed from the switch itself?
For dead end, why can't you run an additional 12-2 between SW1 & SW2? Tlhis would give you the needed black hot and cap the whites should a neutral ever be needed in SW2 or code change required.
I moved into a new construction house last year. I replaced all toggle switches with paddle switches (some smart switches). I found neutral wires in all boxes….👍👍
You had a good electrician wire the home.
Appreciate the video, especially learning there are new wiring codes. 👨🏿🔧
Just wired up a room using the "Dead end method". It works as it should. Thank you for making this video, really took the questions out on how to wire.
Awesome great job.
Thanks for the new code information and diagrams.
My pleasure.
Great explanation! I'm replacing a light switch in my bathroom and ran across some questionable wiring. Two wires on one screw on the fan switch with one of them going to the light switch.
I always include a neutral in a switch box. There are some switch devices today that require one and I've seen people use the ground as the neutral leg in these situations causing a dangerous situation down the line for whoever works on that circuit in the future.
I once encountered a BATHROOM (house built in 19:90 in California) that had two switches (one for the lights and one for the exhaust fan), went to replace the light/fan unit, discovered they only ran a single 14 gauge two wire romex to that device and used the black for the light power, the white for the fan power, and the unshielded ground for common for both with NO grounding - talk about confusing and a code violation.
@@ragtowneLet's hope they didn't do the same in the main panel!
[gee this 2/0 white wire is expensive, let's just use this 6ga ground wire here!]
It will also raise havoc if someone tries to upgrade to GFCI; trying to figure out why the breaker won't stay in, or where the fault is...
@@ragtowne I've seen a substantially more dangerous hack job while helping my stepfather rewire his 1973 rambler. Aluminum wiring throughout, 70 amp Zinsco panel in a bedroom closet, as can be expected in a home built during that period. The thing that tipped us off was seeing 2 wire 12 gauge landscape lighting wire used to power the 4500 watt 40 gallon electric water heater, dad turned off the main so I could cut the wire so it could be removed and replaced with a proper 10-2 NM and a 2 pole 30 amp toggle switch since the unit wasn't within sight of the panel. I got a loud bang and vaporized about a half inch hole in my side cutters, turns out a previous owner had tapped that landscape light wire on the line side of the main, so that wire which ran in the crawlspace for almost the length of the house had no overload or short circuit protection, other than the primary fuse on the pole.
The 3 way switches in the hallway were wired with feed at the light, and 12/2 Aluminum NM was dropped from the light box one to each 3 way switch, metal boxes. They were using the black as the common, and the white and ground as the travellers, with the bare "ground" traveller resting against the metal switch boxes .
Since the old galvanized iron water lines were to be replaced with pex pipe anyways, we stripped the house down to the studs and started over from scratch. That was would have been in 2005 and being 16 at the time, found it very educational and rewarding. Sadly that feeling of satisfaction came to a screeching halt when we lost the house to foreclosure in late 2007 because Dad had taken out an adjustable rate mortgage when he brought the place in early 2005 and was unable to afford the mortgage once the introductory APR ended.
@@Sparky-ww5re Moved into our 1945 house with mostly BN wire throughout. Had a problem with the lights dead in the Master Bedroom the first night (we viewed the house twice, in the daytime AND the inspector we paid for never checked the lights and plugs!?!). Took a look in the attic and found the BN cable powering the MB leg had cracked at a bend and bare wires broken through the rubber insulation had parted. Decided rewiring was required. Have gone through about 80 percent of the house and replace all with NM and UF so far, to 2017 code (bought the house in 2015). Added back all the grounds, etc. Still need to replace the switch CB's with AFCI's but that's a big ticket item for a retiree, and with new, copper throughout, not that worried.
To your topic, was working on a BN three wire run, to break out light power onto new NM wire, killed the circuit breaker to that light, went to cut the cable and POP, modified my cutters to have the same stripper notch you describe. :-) Found out that the Red wire was being used, not as a three way, but as a piggy back, power wire, to another part of the house on a different (30 amp) breaker. They were using the white neutral for both circuits. One more room left to finish rewiring, the Media (old living room) room, and then we'll be done.
It's a shame he had lost the house, People that pushed ARM's should have been jailed or worse. Take Care!!!
Great video! I'm a senior citizen AAS Elect/Mech, NICET III Fire/Burg. Not an electrician. Recently built a new home, I replaced the switches in the 3 bath rooms exhaust fans with switches with timer built-in, boy was I glad to find neutrals in each of the switch boxes. I know enough about house wiring to be cautious, refer to NEC and to subscribe to and watch videos like yours.
Thank you.
That's awesome Donald.. Thanks for watching my content.
they dont even have electricity in Maine yet. Ignore this.
Hahaha
😂
LOL!
Lol
As a former Mainer I can confirm
I recently installed smart thermostats in my unit and there were a lot of interesting choices that were made with the electrical design. One being that some parts of the unit have one neutral being shared between two different circuits on different phases. Which does work, but it's kind of dangerous for amateurs doing electrical work as it means figure out which two circuits are running current through the box rather than just the one. And another one was that since the thermostats that were in use with electric baseboards in the past didn't require a neutral, they didn't provide one in an obvious way. The neutral was still there, it just ran through one of the boxes and just had a connection to split it into two runs one for the heater in one room and another for the heater in the other. It was somewhat fortunate that they were literally back to back, so there wasn't any real fishing of wires required, but it does lead to a bit of confusion and having to reopen the box to mess around with it.
I was waiting to see the California and Chicago methods.
Dustin (Electrician U) shows them in some detail if you're interested, in his description of 3-way switch methods.
@@surferdude642 Thanks, that is an excellent video at Electrician U.
I think the Chicago method comes with a Tommy gun😲🤔
Excellent video. He explained very clearly the wiring and the reasoning. He was straight to the point without any attempts of entertainment which we see in some videos. Good job !!
Thank you Gerald.
Thank you for sharing.
My pleasure.
I have always tied the neutrals together in all my switches and used the std. wiring method in all the 3 and 4 way switches. Done it that way for over thirty years. I never like the loop methods. Nice to know I was doing it correctly.
As an electrician myself, I was already familiar with those two methods of wiring those switches, but I wish you had ALSO shown the other two methods you mentioned, even the now illegal one, because that way I could identify them and (hopefully) be able to fix them if needed!
I also know of another way of wiring those switches, kind of combining the switch loop of the single pole you showed, with the "dead end" 3-way circuit you showed, however, since that method ALSO doesn't allow for a neutral in the switch boxes, (UNLESS you use a 3-wire between the light fixture box and the first switch box), so I'm not sure if that method is legal now either, with thenew 2023 code... I guessI need to read up on that!
I will make another video on the other two methods. Stay tuned. I know the method you're talking about. It's rare but I have seen it. Usually done when someone wanted to add a couple of 3-ways to control a light that was originally on a single pole. I'll add that as well.
While I have NOT utilized the 3-conducor switch-loop (as you showed), that's a good alternate way to do it. I figure it'sjust almost easier to just to use the "standard" accepted method: run a 12 or 14-2 feed cable directly to the switch, and then 12/14-2 up the the fixture. Just keeps it simpler, and no need for 3-conductor NM.
I have used the "new" dead-end 3-way method quite a lot over the years (using the white wire as an ungrounded conductor), just because it saves a bit of wire-pulling! However, in my way of doing it: I use the black & white wires as my travelers to the second box & switch, with white conductor re-identified as a hot/ungrounded conductor, and then use the red as the "switched return" to the first box/light. I feel this more accurately follows the "old" 12/14-2 switch-loop methodology, where the [re-identified] white was your "hot" feed down to a switch, and the black was the switched-return back to the light fixture.
Anyway, always great stuff. Thanks for posting!
I'm not real keen on the NEC, which was established for electrical safety, starting to require things like this. In most cases this will never be used. I really think most people are happy to just turn the light on and off with the wall switch. In the last few years the NEC has taken the code to an extreme, requiring Ground fault protection on equipment that does not substantially need it.....Stoves, ovens, HVAC units, dishwashers and the like. These units are solidly grounded which prevents shock hazard (externally) and would/should be disconnected for service. This whole thing with the NEC smells of influence from manufactures of equipment.
The younger generations love controlling things with their home assistant or with their phones. The issue was that its difficult to get a neutral to the box later and its very easy and inexpensive to do it during the original installation. From a safety standpoint people were connecting the neutral to the ground wire. It would work but create a hazard by having current flow on the ground.
NFPA owns NEC. I was a career firefighter for 23 years. During that time I purchased 4 fire apparatus, fire hose and other items for our department. During that time I learned how NFPA has a seat at the table for manufacturers. They are continually trying to create mandatory short term lives for equipment and the list goes on and on. Luckily in the fire service the AHJ is given the final word, with the NEC many jurisdictions blindly adopt it and the enforcement parties are often thise who have spent Weeks and Weeks (haha) training (as opposed to retired Journeyman electricians)
@@spudth Re: short-term lives. Now that I'm old enough to have bought electronic equipment and have it later fail due to age, I agree that code shouldn't be requiring any devices with an expected lifespan less than 60 years. IMO that should mean no devices that contain electrolytic capacitors or flash/EPROM memory.
I never used a little bit of black tape taped all white with black tape or permanent black marker.
That's going to be whatever the local AHJ is looking for because the code isn't specific.@@barrythomas529
Hello, great video, thank you. As a new person to wiring, I have a situation that just recently happened. I have 2 light fixtures on the outside of my detached garage that are controlled by a light switch inside the garage and/or a light switch on my kitchen wall that has a switch for the garage lights and a switch for the patio light. I am not sure which switch connection went bad but the switch in the garage is not turning on/off the garage lights anymore. Where could the problem possibly be? No, nothing has been touched in over 12 years when I had my kitchen remodeled. Thank you.
Check to be sure your breaker isn't tripped. You may be supplying the garage with a GFCI which can trip easily. Then be sure the lights are not burned out. Check to see if power is getting through the switch in the kitchen and that its making its way to the garage switch. Connection issues are very common. Then check that power is getting through your garage switch and be sure to check to neutral so you know you haven't lost that connection either. Last would be the connections at the light.
The NEC code book has been hijacked by the big electrical component manufacturers. It's actually a flagrant, takeover of a once strictly, human safety and industry standards publication. I've been in the business over 40 years and had a longtime friend in the code writing industry in NC. He knew all players and how it changed over the years. He was a very smart man, may he rest in peace. Just my two cents for the day.
Yours is the most incisive comment on any code-related video on You Tube. It is blatantly obvious that code updates are driven solely by the industry’s greed. Code requirements have cost homeowners billions of dollars over the years. If the industry can find a way to charge $100 for a circuit breaker that was $10 a few years ago it will, all under the guise of “safety” when in fact the risks are more theoretical than real. Proof is in the fact that millions of homes built under decades old codes are doing just fine. Careful and proper practices and decent quality products from the 1990s - plus instruction in basic electrical safety for consumers - were all we needed. Instead, we open our wallets wider with every code update.
What are you guys smokin? It's technology that drives this. I have had situations where I couldn't use switches requiring neutrals. I hear your point but there is a lot more going on that encourages code changes. Smart switches, unless your Ted Kazinski and friends, are awesome for so many reasons. Having neutrals at all boxes although is a pain in the ass is nice for adding a receptacle later on and being able to use and switch from the hardware store/ wholesalers.
It's technology that drives this new code I have had situations where I couldn't use switches requiring neutrals . I hear the point of the complainers, but there is a lot more going on that encourages code changes. I used to think the same about tamper proof/ tamper resistant receptacles until I saw my young kid poking at a receptacle the first time. Smart switches, unless your Ted Kazinski and friends, are awesome for so many reasons. Having neutrals at all boxes although is a pain in the ass is nice for adding a receptacle later on and being able to use and switch from the hardware store/ wholesalers.
There are certainly a handful examples of industry driven changes in the NEC, but your statement that the NEC has been hijacked and taken over is just false. If you understood the NEC revision process you'd have a better understanding of changes and how they make their way into the newest edition, thereby allowing you to make an informed opinion instead of a reactionary one.
I see this recently in efforts to make it harder and more expensive to install electric car charger in home garage.
Very good explanation. My high school teacher (back in 1997) said that was one of the things that most electricians had issues with. I made it a point to learn 3 way/4 way switch wiring like the back of my hand. Great video!
Thanks for sharing
I hate not having a neutral wire. This is long overdue.
It was never needed. Only the Hot wire. And the job was very essie.
@@lxramirez9788
It's much easier to run power to switch, then you always have power at the switch box.
& It's easy, not essie
Nice. I am retired from the AF, was in the Ext Electrical shop as a power line technician
Very cool! Thanks for your service. I was only in four years back in the 80s. McClellan AFB Sacramento CA. (CE Prime Beef) 🇺🇸
Lutron writing the codes, that's new....not.
Yep. Codes being written not to safety but to adding crap
@@OpenCarryUSMCjust wait to hear about how we have to use pop up outlets in islands now because kids were getting hurt. It definitely has nothing to do with those outlets costing $60-$500 a piece. It’s like gfcis in wet locations; if you’re worried about people being electrocuted by standing in water make all surfaces on electric devices and appliances in wet locations nonconductive. Unless you’re really special the only path to ground in a kitchen that the average homeowner is going to come to contact with are conductive surfaces on their appliances or the metal plate screws. So why is that not required but in the 2024 code cycle I now I have to gfci protect fridges, microwaves and stoves? Oh yeah money. If I’m purchasing a minimum of 9 gfcis per house and they have a 1 in 8 failure rate according to Mike Holt then I have to replace at least 1 per house. But wait if they all have to be afgfci besides the bath and weather proof they’re getting a minimum of $362.14 per job not including replacement. Isn’t it funny how a 100 pack of nonconductive plate screws only costs $21 and miraculously is not required by code in wet locations? Surely the people who write code care more about our lives and less about robbing us blind
@@OpenCarryUSMC code has never been about safety, it it was they would guarantee the safety if it was.
@@ProjectGnome1961 lol don't take a bath with your toaster or poke stuff into an outlet.
@@678friedbed hey, when I was 5 years old my electronics project kit had me build a radio and then for an antenna I was instructed to plug a blade terminated wire into “the long slot” of a two or three prong electrical outlet.
Yeah, that was 1966, I survived but can you imagine trying to get that past the liability lawyers at a major electronics kit and components company today?
God forbid Johnny files down the blade so it will go into the short slot and the company ends up in front of a jury.
Darwin just isn’t allowed to work any more.
There was a dead end 3 way on my stairs. I was planning on putting a wifi switch at the bottom of the stairs. When I opened the box there was no neutral. So the wifi switch was put upstairs.
I always wondered if that was code compliant. Good to see that it is.
Just ignore those pesky codes and do it the fail safe old school way. Forget inspections, they cost money and you were doing this job yourself to save money in the first place. 😁
Noooooooooo!
LMAO 🤣🤣🤣
Okay Ron Swanson... 😅😂
Inspections are free. Fuck you talking about?
So with that advice should we call you when the insurance company won’t cover the damages ??
the only thing i thought he might have explained is that additional 4 ways can be added endlessly. all in all a lesson I would give the teacher a A+ for.
So basically, because some people want the "smart" switches, everyone's life just got more miserable and more expensive. wow, what a progress!
It only applies to new construction and only once your state adapts the 2023 code. The issue has been that in the absence of a neutral wire people connect to the ground wire creating a safety hazard. I always wire with the neutral in the switch box anyway so for many people of us it's a non issue.
From my experience, the only people whose lives will be made miserable by this change are people who run their hot conductor to the fixture instead of to the switch. But in my experience of having never actually encountered that type of wiring I have to say this rule change won't affect that many people.
Shits helpful I just I installed a bathroom fan that had a light and speaker and the switch wanted that white wire
Like 10 minutes and 10 bucks more chill
@@Dwayne_Bearupdoes that matter with A/C electric. The circuit you mentioned would just keep the light powered on, no?
These past few code videos you’ve posted are among the best teaching videos I’ve ever watched on Electrician RUclips. New subscriber, I look forward to more of your excellent, easy to understand content. If this were feedback on eBay, I’d say “A++ seller, highly recommended!!”
Wow, thanks! Much appreciated. More to come.
As in all of life's changes, it is meant to cost you more money so they can make more money.
BINGO !
If it's to do with NEC/NFPA/OSHA things affecting life safety, it either means something bad happened and this the cure, or they identified the potential for something bad happening and incorporated it into code because enough people thought it made sense. It's not like they're making you go back and change stuff made to earlier codes unless it's a renovation.
No, it's ment specifically to prevent people from using the ground as a neutral for smart switches.
Ever been whacked on a neutral under load? It hurts more than getting whacked by 277. Ask me how I know.
Ive always done my wiring the way you do witih the neutral in the switch box.
Why in 2024 are we running all this expensive Romex to wall switches? Why hasn't the industry gone to low voltage communicating switches and just taking power to outlets and fixtures? Material cost would go down, labor would go down, and flexibility would go through the roof.
Maybe because it allows more options for future upgrades. For example if needing to add an electrical outlet or other powered device, hot neutral and ground could be obtained from a switch box if nothing else in the area is available.
Reason 2 simplicity and reliability of not using relays/contactors when a single pole switch could be used.
I realize those aren't super strong arguments but since when does the NEC use solid reasoning for everything
That is what I am doing on my current project . Centralized power conversion to low voltage . And running LV wire to all switches and lights which include communications.
Switches are incredibly durable and, being inside a junction box within a wall, rarely need replacement. In the event one does need to be replaced, you need to kill the breaker. (Depending on local codes, this can be a massive pain.)
Light fixtures are (usually) fully exposed - not only are they more vulnerable to damage, but also frequently changed for aesthetic reasons. This is in addition to using fragile bulbs which need regular replacement and sometimes break in a manner which exposes live voltage.
This is why live voltage is run only to switches and outlets - NOT to fixtures. When the switch is turned off, there is ZERO voltage going to the fixture(s).
@@twylanaythiasWhat? Would you please explain how it’s a major pain to turn off the breaker to a light in a home with modern wiring?
@@guri256 With rare exceptions (like most kitchens), each breaker controls an entire room. Clocks, TVs, computers, and everything else in the room running on AC is going down/out when you turn off the breaker. Assuming, of course, that you flip the right breaker the first time - breakers are commonly mislabeled, assuming that they're even labeled in the first place.
Even if you live by yourself (no kids to complain about not being able to play video games, partner to be upset about not being able to use their computer, all of them complaining because the internet is off, etc), it can be a real hassle to get everything back up and running, clocks reset, etc. Add to this the operating assumption that nothing ever goes 100% as planned (particularly when it involves working on someone else's work), you can see how quickly a 'simple repair' can turn into a massive headache.
In the dead end three way, if you needed a neutral for any reason in the last switch, you could run an NM 14/4 which has Black, Red, blue white and ground. Expensive stuff if you don't need it that much but u could run 14/4 between the switches to bring in the neutral. It would also save re-identifying the white wire. Again, not required, but an option. In a job site where there's 120/208 there may be some of that NM or MC cable around. In conduit, easy peasy to run a blue wire.
It seems the electrical code is not about safety but politics. The new switches may need a neutral so this is about money, not safety.
It actually is about safety. If you have a neutral wire you won’t connect the neutral wire on the switch to ground creating a hazard. Similar to requiring receptacles every 12 feet to keep people from using extension cords. It’s about safe and adequate insulations for the consumer and nothing else.
It’s all about the money jamescole$ just like arc fault breakers.
Go to electrical school if you want to know, it's about saftey. Needing a neutral is not only for saftey but also allows for future switches that may be installed.
@@leif901-5 it’s about money, control, and power. Nothing to do with actual safety for people. Who do you think profits from wifi connected smart light switches? Not regular people.
This is absolutely about SAFETY. It is more evident in commercial settings, where the color of conductors can be a factor and upgrades to facilities (i.e. added devices/ loads) require better more than just what was standard decades ago. This will also save homeowners thousands of $ because they won't have to demo finished material just to add a few devices. Just because someone benefits monetarily from a change doesn't mean that the change was for money.
I think I got it. I need to remove a 3 way switch and was hoping this would help me suss it out. I'll start by figuring out which set of the wires is the lead and which is the leg.
Holy christ, a light switch should never have been wired at the end of a run. not today, not 50 years ago.
Seriously. I'm an amateur, just learning to diy electrical, and I think switch loops are ridiculous. Just ripped out a couple switch loops and replaced with 2023 NEC code compliant wiring, without even knowing the new code, because Duh???
So if the breaker panel is on the north side of a room and the switch is on the south side to control a light on the north side of the room, you want me to run two different 12/2 cables all the way across the room? Sorry, that is silly. You just run a dead end, and usually I would wire it with 12/3 just in case I wanted the neutral there for some later rework. This change to the code just makes this previous nice to have a requirement.
I just don’t understand why you just don’t run a 3 wire to the switch and you have the neutral wire in the box if you need it and you are only running one cable
As @sdkee said, this can require many feet of extra wire in the current carrying path. It also puts an extra splice in the load's neutral and ground connections. For some switched loads this might drop too much voltage or waste too much power. For all, it adds copper cost.
I think part of the issue these days is that copper costs about the same as a crack habit.
This is a good change. IMHO, there should always have been a neutral available at the switch for future expansion. It's not necessarily trivial since you probably won't have a box large enough for an extra outlet, but there's plenty of places where future use makes it helpful to have a spare outlet where a switch alone was appropriate.
John that was an elegantly clear and concise lesson 👍🏼👍🏼 super understandable for both the DIY''R and PRO.
Great to hear.. Thank you so much.
Good video. I'm a former electrician/contractor. Good to learn the new rule.
Given this, and the cost of wire these days, I'm wondering if relay switching is becoming more popular for basic residential installations. I.e., no exotic control systems, just basic residential. Seems it might have an edge in the current market.
Thanks for the video. I’m a retired active duty then AF civil service electrician. I miss code update classes since retiring and am getting ready to wire an auxiliary building on my property and this is good to hear. Though Im going to use conduit and will be able to fish a wire to anywhere if needed I’m just going to put it in from the start. Makes me wonder what other changes I may be ignorant about. Thanks again.
Thanks for sharing! And thanks for your service. 🇺🇸 I was thinking maybe do a 2-3 minute code change video each week or so but I haven't decided if people will be interested in that or not. I was in the AF a long time ago back in the 80s. I was in CE and was stationed at McClellan AFB in Sacramento CA. The base only had about 4000 military but there were about 25,000 civil service employees at the time. I had some great teachers there.
@@BackyardMaine Well thank you for your service as well. Your generation of AF electricians and Civilians are who gave me the best foundation a young electrician could ask for. I cross trained into the electrical field in 85 and my first base was Wright Patterson. It was the same make up as you described mostly civilian. I would definitely be interested in your code updates if you should decide to do them. You wouldn’t have to go in great detail and I think most people like me would understand them if they were simply a gloss over changes. Whatever you decide thank you for sharing what you do share.
@@JOndo-yr4gm Thanks for your input my friend. I may try 3 or 4 of them and see how well they perform.
I’ve always sent the feed to the switch box first when wiring in NMB, AC or MC, so this code change isn’t much of a trauma to me. I think they should’ve modified the exception to allow a switch feed loop in conduit though. Great explanation!
For me, as old as I am, never going to ever wire anything again. Its just nice to remind ones self what was involved. For people who worried about their homes..... I say if it was done in say the last five years and no issues, no need to worry but if there are problems going on, time to revisit all of the wiring. Any wiring thats twenty plus would probably fail but yet if it is still working right. Its a leave it alone as the cost of rewiring a home that old will be not only very expensive, most likely be more than that home is valued at. There of course many other things to consider as age or historic, etc., that determines to do or not. Just trying to keep this comment short... loved this video as its very easy to follow
For the dead-end 3-way, you install a smart switch in the Leg as follows:
use two conductors of the traveler to send power/neutral to the leg's j-box. Use this to power the smart switch.
The third conductor in the traveler goes from the leg's smart slave switch to the "slave" input of the smart switch in the line location.
Leave a note and diagram in the j-box for the confused electrician who comes along years after you're gone.
Problem is, the smart switches stopped having the "slave" wire on many of the models. I don't recall if there are more expensive models, but you can just forget the 3-way and use a X-10 switch that commands the first one; similarly for newer command systems. That means running the power/neutral to it but not using the 3rd wire.
At 2:08 I’ve been wiring since I was eight years old. But for many years now I don’t cut the common nor ground while wiring a switch. I loop the ground wire around switch’s ground and fold balance of that grounding wire to back of switch box. The common doesn’t get cut and is simple folded to back of stitches box! This way I never worry about a connection that could fail! The black “Hot” cut and install on switch properly! Oh forgot I’m 70 now!
We used to wire two 3-ways another way. Sort of like the dead end style but the light is in the middle of the traveler wires (like where a 4-way switch would be). White wire in traveler from the feed 3-way is the neutral for the light, white wire from the dead end 3-way is re-identified hot wire for the light. We did some tract homes back in the day where this was convienient because there was a two story plan that had a wall light for the staircase, and it was right in the path or the traveler wire going between the switches. Of course this would only work if there was only one light fixture (although if there were more than one light you could just take a two wire from the first light to the rest). Then there is where you run the hot wire and the switch leg to a 4-way in the middle, then the 2 3-ways can both be dead ends.
A very good presentation, thanks. I always forget how to wire 3 way switches no matter how many I do, if I don't do these often enough.
My lights are completely different in that my switch boxes carry no current at all. Mine have no hot, no neutral & no ground. They have two bell wires in them that lead to the grey terminals of Sonoff Mini R2 smart WiFi controllers. These terminals only sense a change in ground of the logic chip, and still utilizes the traditional wall light switch to control the light. Lights can be controlled via the app, voice, wall switch, routines and timers. This method will not allow dimmers to function. I have one lamp in each room with dimming function that is smart.
I chose this option due to the high cost of wire, having a huge 19 room - 90 year old home. Not only did I not have a neutral, had cloth wire, and I didn't even have a ground.
You've made this easier for me to understand for sure. I could not diagram it out without watching this video multiple times. But for a first time viewing it was very very clear.
Thanks. Happy to help.
I've always done dead end 3 ways by sending the line to switch 2 and using the common on switch 1 for the switch leg.
Kudos, very clear and concise explanation! However, I don’t understand the comment regarding some inspectors and size.
200.7 in the code does allow the re-identifying of a white wire for single pole, 3-way and 4-way light switch loops but I have found some inspectors will not allow this so I never do it.
@@BackyardMaine Do they ever give you a Code based reason? It drives me crazy when inspectors enforce personal rules and not strict adherence to the NEC!
There's another area of the code that prohibits re-identifying smaller conductors. I think it's smaller than 8AWG.. I'd have to look it up. I prefer wiring methods where I don't need to do this anyway so for me its not a concern. @@djcip1
Good explanation except in a dead end 3way we always do red & white travelers & black common since switching is only allowed on Phase conductors the white is used as a traveler instead of reidentified & used as a switched common.
Great video, as always. Clear explanations with just the right amount of "why." Also, good job keeping the grey techniques (e.g., California method) in separate videos from the green stuff so people passing through trying to work on their first switching project won't accidentally misremember or happenstance skip into the "what not to do" portions of videos.
What a great comment.. Thank you. When I read comments like yours it motivates me to make more videos. I actually have another video of a not "very common method" for wiring 3-way switches going live this evening. I call it the double dead end 3-way because both switches are dead ended. Thanks again.
Good video. I always identify wire going to light with colored tape, indicating load.
I have always called the black screws the power in/out screws in my head and when I have explained it to other people. Europeans generally call a 3-way switch or a 3-way pneumatic/hydraulic valve a 2-way which I really think makes more sense because the power only has two paths. They also referred to a 4-way switch as a slap switch or a cross switch which I also think is accurate. So many descriptions explaining the same concept.
i used to do a bit of this at my last plant before i moved to a new automotive plant but havent done much in the last 4-5 years. i always ran my power to the switch first probably because i worked with ladder logic more so than this general receptacle/outlet/switch wiring so it just seemed smartest to run my power to the switch before anything else
Ahh yes ladder logic. I have worked with that for decades. Mostly AB PLCs.
Yep. AB slc 500 through the latest RSLogix (which just confuses me)
@@truthsayers8725 Before I left we upgrade our RODI water plant for SLC 500 to RSLogic. It was a nightmare because the plant runs 24x7 We bring everything over in little pieces and TIs risk tolerance for an unexpected shutdown was 0%.
EXCELLENT diagram for the 3-way switch setups -- this helped so much! Thank you
Glad it helped! Thanks for watching.
Just ran into this today the light switch had no neutral to go to the ceiling fan I wanted to install. I have to go and tap another circuit for a neutral pain in the butt. Thanks
This seems to be an easier 3-way to plan than the one i organised for me and the Mrs last the weekend!
I’ve always run the neutral in each switch box by using 14/2/2 for 3 way switch so I can carry the travelers and power to the next switch box .
You obviously haven't been around that long, as 14 2 2 hasn't always been available. It's a newer concept, being absolutely ridiculously overpriced. So for you amateur wannabe sparkys, you don't tear your walls open, you install smart bulbs or lamps. If you can't figure things like 3 and 4 way switches out, hire an electrician that has proven himself with 8000 proven hours before they can call himself or herself an electrical journeyman!. Next thing you know all you geniuses will be attempting service upgrades by watching RUclips. Good way to end up crispy critters.
@@jimfee2753 I’m sorry , only got 29 years behind me as electrician and 14/2/2 has been around for over 15 years , good named supply house stock it like 12/2/2 , but good luck to find it in hardware store .
@@jimfee2753 you’re probably right , I only got 32 years of electrical work experience behind me , and I’ve been using 14/2/2 and 12/2/2 for at least over 15 years since the NEC rule about carrying the neutral/grounded wire isn’t that new .
This is a most impressive video. I really appreciate your whiteboarding the circuits and explaining them.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for your comment and for watching my videos.
Very clearly explained! Thanks. I think up in Canada, their CEC requires neutral at all 3- and 4-way locations, I don't think they've carved out an exception like the NEC has.
I prefer it that way anyways. Then you still have a neutral @ all the switch boxes incase you ever need/want a switch that needs it there.
@@KjKase It is obviously more versatile. The question is whether one's old house is wired this way ....
@@KjKase Without changing where the wiring goes, you'll never need it. Only one of the switches will have the relay that switches the load; this frees up the travellers to feed live and neutral to all other boxes to power the "send command only" smart switches.
@@HenryLoenwind What if I want switches that light up at night?
@@dmitripogosian5084 I know mine isn't... It sucks, but I'm not going to rip out the drywall to do it the way I'd prefer lol.
Thank you. This was helpful as I've been seeing red wires which are part of 3 wires to the switch.
Glad it helped