Metal Vs Plastic Electrical Boxes | Avoid This Common DIY Mistake
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- Опубликовано: 14 май 2024
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Do you feel comfortable using metal electrical boxes on your DIY electrical projects around the house? If not, you are like the majority of my audience who indicated they prefer to use plastic boxes. There are a lot of advantages to metal boxes but you do need to have some knowledge to ensure you aren't making common DIY mistakes.
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As a child, my dad always made me watch him working around the house, so, as he put it, I would know how to fix things when I grew up. Dad was a custodian in a public school; had something called a black seal fireman's certification, and had learned all sorts of electrical, plumbing, and construction skills from the 'real' professionals during his lifetime, because he watched them, when they came to work on the systems at his school. It makes me so happy, to know that he really did know what he was doing, and how important it was to him, to make sure that I learned how to do things the right way. I watch your videos, and remember my dad, teaching me how to do so many things correctly and up to code, even though he wasn't a professional electrician. So I thank you, and I thank my dad, for the knowledge that you both pass along to me, so I won't burn my house down.
That’s awesome. I wish my dad was able to do that. That info is priceless.
Yup. Thankful for the knowledge my dad passed down to my brother and I. Many people nowadays have to pay someone to change a light bulb for them!😂
Great dad! He was making sure you were self sufficient and stayed alive while doing so. Thats timeless love.
Also make sure you don't have insulation under the screw like he has here.
I've been and Electrician for over 40 years. Nice information. I use ALL metal boxes ALL the time. I am retired now in Arizona and do mostly old work with romex, as such the old work metal box comes with Romex clamps already installed. The main reason I learned to use metal boxes is NYC Code. The code was written in case the outlet catches fire the spark or fire would be contained. I tape EVERY OUTLET just in case and bare conductor has a chance of hitting a screw ect and so the next guy doesnt get zapped.
Loved your information... and as per NYC Code .. you take the ground conductor and wrap it around the ground screw in the box and as one continuous wire go to the ground on the outlet
Have a great day and keep up the good work
What I do with metal boxes is make the pigtails to 7" to allow me to wrap the bare ground wire around the green screw in the box; then, rest of the bare wire is attached to the ground screw to the outlet ground screw.
That way you do not need the additional green pigtail and the Wago splice
My thought exactly.
No longer NEC as of 2020
@@zacharythebeau163 I will still do it if I can get away with it. Waste of money for the extra pigtail or feed through green wire nut.
@@zacharythebeau163why the heck is that? I think that by taking the Romex ground to the box first and then to the device, you are eliminating a point that your ground is broken and then spiced with a Wago/wirenut, giving you a point of failure. 🤷🏻♂️ Just my 2¢ worth.
Yep, everything wired in this 1970 like that.
For grounding the box, a common thing I've seen in homes is to wrap the Romex's ground wire around the ground screw and then connect it to the outlet. Fewer wires makes for more space in the box, which is helpful on single-outlet metal boxes.
Another benefit with that (that the ESA encourages) is if they're the ground screws with the two lines on the outside, you can bond EVERYTHING to that metal box. eg if you have 5 cables in the box, 1 ground can be long and run to the device, and the other 4 can simply be bonded onto the box and snipped. Reduces your box fill by 30%, which is great nowadays with these chunky smart switches and USB adapter outlets.
so you asked us, with the plaster ring covering the ground screw location on the box.
good you knew, but unfair to us.
I am not an electrician, “but I stayed in the Holiday Inn last night”. The ground contact of the receptacle is internally connected to the retainer screw of the receptacle thereby providing a ground to the box. Greetings to all electricians here, who have missed that detail.
@@wdnspoon Yikes. Thats scary if you think about it. I don't think it's code to require multiple grounds like you're talking about. But you should probably have them for safety concerns. Think about it. If you have the 5 cables on separate phases, then it would be ok to share a neutral. But since the phases of "everything" would probably not be separate. The neutral could become overloaded. Thats why you would need multiple neutrals. And since you would need multiple neutrals, you would technically need multiple grounds in a fault condition for the same reason you would need multiple neutrals. It's a thinker. And I don't think code actually calls for multiple grounds if you have multiple hots like that on the same phase, but you should in my humble opinion.
@@mrtopcat2 But if you remove the outlet from the box, and the hot wire is shorted to the metal box, anyone who touches the box will get electrocuted.
Code says ANY metal enclosure MUST be grounded.
I use metal boxes almost exclusively. The one exception I made was when installing a pair of duplex outlets between my garage door openings on the inside; there was a gap such that the heavy-duty plastic box bridged it easily with the mounting ears.
If you have tile/backsplash an adjustable box is a great option. You just turn a screw to align the box to the exact finished face of the wall.
I really like the Southwire MSB series boxes for old work; they mount to a stud, which is a lot better than trusting drywall and little tabs. Thanks for your work!
I agree with everything you said, including when to use tape. Good point about ensuring the wires don't pressure the outlet from the side, to skew its position when mounting for the cover plate.
My dad built the house I grew up in back in 1957 and all the boxes were metal and the wiring was BX. So, when I did retrofits, I learned to work with both effectively. I do like the added strength of metal boxes.
I totally agree with your statement in reference to metal boxes adding more strength. My home was build in 1989 and the builder in my community used the plastic boxes in all switch and all outlets. Over the years having plugged or especially removing the plugs, has created a situation where the plastic box is no longer securely mounted and it moves easily. Of course I don't see that in a box with a switch installed. Plastic boxes over time (in my opionion), unlike metal boxes that are well secured, tends to become sloppy and loose over time. My (2 sense).
That gray box should be illegal piece of junk
@@michael-southflorida3854 in places where I suspect there may be a more constant plugging and unplugging and I'm using plastic boxes . I usually put a 2x4 brace piece bedding the box to secure it better with another screw thru the plastic in the back .
The 2x4 usually has to be trimmed to 1" thick to fix1 behind the box and not protrude into the plane of the drywall in the other side. Will stay rock solid forever takes about 5 min maximum to cut and install .. but great price of mind that a customer will never call me about lose outlets...,☺️
I've seen fires that were contained inside a metal box that would have melted a plastic box, and who knows what the result of that would have been!
Exactly the point I made to @jobaecker9752 which started with "your testimony is the one that matters to me. MAINTENANCE and the reality of the long haul...
Cheaper is fine... But later in time, when it's time to add things or renovate or fix things, the "plastic" is what it is (trouble). It provides a false sense of security (non conductive?) and, as you share, it just ain't solid/strong/reliable.
I am tired of the "influencers" who try to be objective by promoting electrical solutions that we can easily foresee/ forecast future problems." (...)@@michael-southflorida3854
Keep in mind that some jurisdictions require metal boxes and EMT per local code, such as Chicago and the surrounding area. Always check with your municipality on what they allow!
Good callout. I am glad I am not in Chicago 😬
Most of the mega cities in the US require all metal. New York burned down twice, about 50%. The Chicago fire may sound familiar. San Francisco after the quake. And after you add other US cities, think of Rome. London. (Not just WW2). MANY large densely built mega cities have learned fire safety the hard way. Maui and most of California still haven't gotten it.
The metal deals with ground issues, with RATS chewing the wires, and friendly tenants pounding picture hanger nails in the walls.
I sleep better with metal.
@@EverydayHomeRepairsI'm the farthest from a journeyman electrician, but working with EMT isn't that bad, other than the cost of the EMT and the bender. I live in a municipality that requires both EMT and metal boxes, but I was able to renovate a room in my house with both after taking the time to learn the tricks on how to measure bends and runs
Chicago: You are all fine burning down the city with molotovs and bricks.
Also Chicago: Wait just a second now. We can't have you using plain romex it could start a fire!
@@adtopkek4826I'd bet a politician's relative or big donor had a business selling metal boxes or EMT around the time that part of the code came out.
Excellent. Just the information I needed to wire lights into my attic. Thank you so much.
I love the fact that you explain the perfect terminology,.
I'm a commercial electrician, since I usually use metal boxes, I'd prefer the metal over plastic. They make push in plastic bushings for romex that is a bit easier for the DIYer to install their romex into the boxes; that would save them the effort of fiddling around with locknuts. I really like that you used the 2 1/8" deep box over the 1 1/2" boxes, if I can get away with using deep boxes like that, I always do. Quick tip for DIYers, if you don't want to mess with pigtails, rather than pulling more ground wire out of the romex, which shrinks the ground on the other side of the wire, give yourself enough space to attach that ground to both the box and the device. Typically when doing a rough-in, I like to give myself about 18" of wire at each box, yes there's a little waste at the end, but wire can always be cut to length and it gives enough ground wire for me to tie that ground onto the ground screw and make that bond, rather than cutting separate pigtails. I'm also a big fan of "fold as you go" so you're not fighting to install that device, it's not a big issue with the box you've got and a single device that you're installing, but if there's a possibility of adding another device in the future or the box is smaller, it's always a good habit to leave yourself extra space in the box, it also looks much neater and it will allown that device to go in straight.
Either way, good video.
Previous owners renovated my house prior to my buying it and, I found out later, did all of their electrical DIY. Every box is shallow metal and screwed in to the studs like in this video. Wires smashed into boxes, GB wire nuts, and everything wrapped in electrical tape. No boxes are grounded. I hope they’re having a miserable retirement.
👍🏼 to the extra length to tie in the ground. I'm surprised how few use this procedure.
if he would shown proper residential metal boxes then he wouldn't have needed to add any connectors. We use BC2304-LHTQ DEVICE BOX 2-1/2" DEEP 1G boxes for residential
You da man! larger boxes mean faster and smoother device installation. Ditto for a little extra wire.
A light fixture in our entryway nearly fell out of our ceiling because the blue plastic junction box was basically crumbling. The house was built in 2009, so it was only 14 years old. Definitely went with a metal box to replace it.
Liked your video as it identified some common wiring problems. I do wrap a duplex outlet with tape where I have a box with alot of wires in particular when using 12 guage wire.
I have had to guess so much in the past, it's great to hear you say I did something correctly and reaffirmed when I did something not so right lol
Great job explaining. You've come a long way. I remember when you first started thinking "Oh geez" and now you're onto it both in content (this video is 100% correct in instructional content) and presentation (confident and informative.) Great job, brother!
I'm an aspiring electrician. I've done a little electrical work re-wiring outlets, changing their location, etc. but metal boxes have always concerned me specifically for the reason of them becoming energized. The information here about pro-grade outlets and switches having a lead to the ground built into the tabs is very illuminating and the rest of this video de-mystified things that I didn't understand before. Thank you!
They need to be grounded therefore never be energized.
The ground contact of the receptacle is internally connected to the retainer screw of the receptacle thereby providing a ground to the box. Greetings to all electricians here, who have missed that detail.
@@mrtopcat2 the metal boxes have the ground screw in the back and the ground from the receptacle. When wired properly the box will never be energized if the breaker does its job.
@@danlux4954 Yes. That is the way I see it as well. We live in an old house with 2-wire electrical and no ground. I have grounded all of our metal boxes (lot's of work cutting walls etc.)
@@mrtopcat2if it’s the older steel flex technically it is grounded as long as there’s no breaks in the flex but it’s still good to add a ground
I just did this same installation on a meatal box. MY Home was built 1950. No grounds in any boxes. I ran pig tail and wall to ground to box. Good education. Thank you for the help.
Great job explaining the wiring! I really enjoy your channel!
I've always grounded metal boxes direct from incoming wire wrapped once around box ground screw, then continue the ground wire to the correct length outside the box (in one piece).
That's what I do as well, leaves more room in the box if you have additional wires running in/out.
Exactly!
My local pro electrician showed me that trick. Works great.
The ground contact of the receptacle is internally connected to the retainer screw of the receptacle thereby providing a ground to the box. Greetings to all electricians here, who have missed that detail.
I may be mistaken but I believe Canadian code does not allow using a separate wire to bond the metal box as you show.
Instead the ground coming into the box must go to the box ground first and then continue to the outlet ground. So when bringing the cable into the box you plan on the ground wire hitting the ground screw first. If you plan this it works out elegantly most of the time.
You "can" depend on the screw carrying the ground from the box to the outlet, but I prefer to have a solid connection.
If you do a "workman" like job, you don't need to tape over the terminals.
The metal 4x4's I've seen all come with just one ground hole. Do you intend to attach TWO J-hooks to that one screw? (one coming up from the romex feed, and the other going out to the outlet) Two wires on one screw is usually a no-no.
@@virt1one There is only one ground wire. It goes into the box, loops around the ground screw in the box and then continues to the outlet where it is attached to the ground screw on the outlet.
@@virt1one from what i recall doing when I worked for an electrician was you looped the ground coming in around the screw and then you could pigtail it. I believe the point in the code was to have the wire ground the box before any pigtailing, not after.
@@virt1onetypically you wrap around completely like others what said below. However code wise, any bonding screw in a metal box that has ridges on both sides are actually rated for 2 ground wires under them. It is important to know the products you are using. Just like I would never recommend putting 2 wires under a circuit breaker as most are not rated for it, but some breakers are actually rated and labeled they are compliant with 2 wires
@@novemportis which reduces any opportunity for arcing.
Thanks! I’ve always used metal boxes on my many many home remodeling projects, but your vid demonstrated that the time requirement is much less with plastic boxes. Yes plastic is flimsy, but once you finish your walls with drywall and cover plates, you have a fairly sturdy, non conductive assembly with less labor. I get it!! I’m getting ready for a whole house (knob and tube) replacement and I think I’ll use plastic for switches and receptacles and assign metal for areas that will not have wall coverings, such as basements, crawls and unfinished walls, such as accessory structures. Thanks for the quick, concise, well prepared vid! You’re the best!!
If you are a house flipper and have no interests with what will happen down the road, then cheep is fine, use the plastic.
If maintenance or future remodeling of a "home" (nowadays called an investment) or add-ons is part of your reality.. Then metal will save you a lot of problems and who knows maybe even the worst case scenarios types of problems.
Next week I’m working on our unfinished basement. Will be using EMT and metal boxes. Your information will help me.
Doing electrical work in Europe for 40 years and have yet to see my first metal box. So interesting discussion. But I’ve never seen wiring in the wall without conduit also. You learn every day.
This video is of course for US wiring circuits only because they use mostly timber/ plasterboard walls , also their wiring system is very different from the UK. Here in the UK metal boxes are mostly used because we have brick/plaster walls and we use conduit. Of course the UK does use plastic drywall hollow wall boxes . To be honest I don't know why US vids appear on our RUclips.
@@garypautard1069 I work in the Netherlands and these differences are so interesting to me. Inside a building we always use conduit, outside or in a garage or shed we use cable, exactly the opposite of what I see here. Also going horizontal in the walls is such a big no no for us. We go trought the ceiling to exactly above where you want to be and then straight down. In our homes you will never drill or screw through a wire, unless you straight above a switch or outlet. Also the drilling through joists, whats that about? When you lower the ceiling 2cm, there's enough room to run all you're pipe's without drilling. When you do things for so long a certain way it's so weird to see it done totally different.
@@hunchbackaudioIn the US the National Electrical Code requires that wire running through studs be placed at least 1 1/4 inches (about 32 mm) from the outside edge of the stud to prevent nail or screw penetration. If that's not possible a metal nail plate must be attached over the stud to prevent nail penetration. Alternatively, and the easiest solution is a metal stud sleeve that's placed through the hole in the stud and protects the wire from nail and screw intrusion.
@@tamer1773 Yes, I have seen those protective plates in other videos. We often deal with solid walls, the pipe is then milled and lies close to the surface. You never know where someone is going to hang a painting. We are so used to guiding the pipes through the ceiling to the right place that we always do it this way. All pipes run to a central box above the light point, so all cable splices remain accessible. You just have to remove the ceiling light in that case. Just be careful drilling holes in the ceiling at random places…..
@@hunchbackaudio As you say, these differences are interesting. (To us in the US, also.) It sounds like you run conduit inside walls and ceilings in buildings? In the US, we do that, too, although 2 cm in the ceiling (about 3/4") is only enough space for 1/2" conduit. How would you handle larger sizes? And how is the ceiling drywall hung?.. The other issue is that your method would seem to use an awful lot more material if each wall outlet box is fed from the ceiling. Then again, I think you also put your outlets up higher (around waist height)?.. In the US, typically only wall switches that control ceiling lights are wired in your fashion.
I've been in my house over 18 years now (not a cheap one) and all the boxes are plastic. While going through to upgrade to newer switches and outlets, I'm finding that nearly 1/3rd of the boxes have stripped or broken threads, or they have come loose from the studs. Probably shoddy original work. There were many times when I had to hold the outlet cover in while pulling out power cords from the outlet.
I guess I just like the solid feel of a metal box.
your testimony is the one that matters to me. MAINTENANCE and the reality of the long haul...
Cheaper fine... But later in time, when it's time to add things or renovate or fix things, the "plastic" is what it is (trouble). It provides a false sense of security (non conductive?) and, as you share, it just ain't solid/strong/reliable.
I am tired of the "influencers" who try to be objective by promoting electrical solutions that we can easily foresee/ forecast future problems.
with electricity, in the last decades, the basics have not truly been able to benefit from "innovations". Tools yes, but replacement or innovations to the foundation (Piping, cables, panels, bonding, wirenuts etc...) have not...
Your analysis of shoddy workmanship is probably correct. A properly installed and secured plastic box will last forever. I have used them for 50 years now. A lot of those problems is caused by not setting the box to the correct depth. Also, before installing the device onto a plastic box, I always "chase" the plastic threads with a #6 thread reamer, to clean them up, since I have found that nearly every time that is not done, the device screws are a lot more work to install into the plastic box. However, there are times when there is just no equal to a metal box. An example is when installing a receptacle for an electric dryer. A standard plastic box just does not have the room, unless you use a "deep" plastic box, for 30 amp rated minimum #10 conductors (I use 40 amp rated #8 conductors for piece of mind). So for a dryer outlet, I use a 4" square x 1.5" deep, or better yet, a 2" deep, 2 gang box, with a single gang "mud ring". Yeah, this is "more expensive" than the cheap route, but it will last forever, and is easy to install, and service when needed, and, there is only one of them in the house. And the metal box is stout when it comes to plugging in, and unplugging, that heavy duty 30 amp, 4 pole, 240 volt dryer plug. The extra $5 to $10 is worth it to me.
Really, the#8 wire is only a $5 or $10 premium? Seems like it would be a lot more. And honestly, how often do you plug or unplug your dryer? Unless you're sharing the outlet with something else, like an EV charge cable, I can't think why you would _ever_ unplug a dryer except to replace it.
@@ps.2 , the metal box and ring is $5 to $10 more. The cost of #8 wire depends on whether it is romex, or conductors in pipe, and the distance of the run. The $5 to 10 has nothing to do with he cost of the #8s.
@@ps.2 Where does @jobaecker9752 indicate it was a dryer he unplugged? I took it to mean a vacuum cleaner or other often used appliance.
Great Info! I appreciate all you do and Love the knowledge I gain by watching
to answer you question; I have been rehabbing houses since 1995. the ages range from 1880 to 1989. in all we have ripped out every metal box when necessary. , and replace with plastic box. I'm still learning from your videos, so keep putting them out there. thank you.
When fishing into a metal box knockout you can use a plastic bashing which can be installed from inside the box. The bushings typical have retention ears built in to keep the wire from pulling out.
I’ve used the plastic (gray) retention bushings on NM wire. But the metal box should still be separately grounded in case the outlet doesn’t have a contact ground to the box. Using bx type cable, the metal clamps ground the box, but I’m not not an electrician.
I still like the elegance of a metal box. They make plastic inserts for metal boxes allowing you to push in the wire.
Arlington NM94 if you're feeding the cable into the box, NM94X if you're feeding the cable out of the box
Thanks! Clear and detailed presentation!
THANK YOU for your video. You have good editing and nice camera angles and proper lighting.
You spoke of metal boxes, not being able to have wire clamps, if the wall is finished. They make a plastic snap-in wire protector with or without a releasable wire clamp, that, after you fish the wire into you metal box, you slip the clip over it and slide it to the hole and make SURE you leave a little excess outside the box, and snap it in place. THEN, strip off the sheath and do your thing.
Concerning grounding, just as soon as your screws thread into the metal holes in your box, the grounded frame of your duplex outlet is connected to your metal box. The ground screw connector is IN THE MOUNT. In essence, you're hooking the ground wire to the metal box, just as soon as the screws go in.
If I needed insurance insulation around an outlet, I would make one round of Varnished Cambrick around it and lightly tape. Regular electric tape, over time, will mess up connectors. Use varnished Cambrick or reverse wrap and regular wrap on that. No goo!
And the subject of WAGO connectors. I will NOT allow them on anything I wire. I will twist the wires and apply wire nuts or kerneys or crimped on lugs, but wago will heat up. They're rated at so many amps. The reason, they have a lever action cam pressure that holds the wires connected. Heat equals resistance. Too much resistance equals too much heat and less than 500 degrees equals F I R E !!! If I wired something, it was either twisted and soldered, or twisted, soldered and wire-nutted for insurance, or crimp lugged or kerneyed. My job required that what I hooked up HAD TO HAVE NO MF's (MalFunctions) on the line of road. ((I was a rewire and burn-up technician for a major railroad. We were serious about electricity and some of the crazy stuff it will do!))
There's no room for plastic in industry. It's going to be metal boxes, EMT or rigid conduit. Aluminum water tight boxes, etc. Some places allow PVC fittings and conduit. If I do something at residential, it automatically gets industry quality. DIY is fine, but know what you're doing! You could easily burn your house down, saving a few bucks from not letting a licensed electrician do your job for you. And I didn't say, letting your contractor wire it for you. Many a house has turned to toast, from the shortcuts by well-meaning contractors. It costs more to do it RIGHT. But it costs a ton less, than to do it OVER !
THANKS AGAIN FOR YOUR VIDEO.
Great video. Lots of detail and love the comparison. Yes, I've forgotten to remove the clamp ring.
1) The grounding screw for the grounding conductor has to be green in color in America . Other screws fit but one can fail an inspection.
2) Yes, the yoke tabs will provide a mechanical ground. Work on some old homes were the connections are loose or corroded. The electrical ground, using a wire to wire connection is better. There is less electrical noise (long explanation about dissimilar metals and their effects.) and lower resistance for tripping breakers. Tripping breakers during a bad event is what we want.
3) DIYers forget there is a two conductor limit for many small clamps. Check the package for use.
Ground screws are not required to be green, though many are. Only the bonding screw in a main panel is required to be green.
green magic marker? LOL
I would not depend on the self grounding in the receptacle. If someone replaces the receptacle someday with a cheaper unit, they may lose the ground connection.
@@Grandpa82547 You are sooo very right.
Twice I've had to run a ground from another receptacle just to diagnose an issue.
Depending on the city, I still find 1960 and before wiring along the east coast. Missing mechanical ground or no ground at all.
I use metal boxes in basements, attics, and garages. I wrap receptacles, and switches in a metal box with electrical tape before installing.
So, on the metal box to save room and the cost of connectors, I would just wrap the bare conductor around the green screw and out to the receptacle. If there’s two or more wires in the box, wrap one around the ground screw and pigtail to the receptacle. If you use ground wire crimp sleeve you can twist the wires together, leave one longer to reach the receptacle, and crimp on the sleeve. Saves a little space.
Thanks for keeping DIY’ers informed!
Nice video. I like the tip about putting the clamp on the cable before feeding it tinto the metal box. I've only used a metal box when I had access to the other side like in an unfinished area and could install the clamp that way. That tip was new to me. Generally, I prefer plastic boxes.
Rewired my share of houses and a few new homes but never used the POS flimsy blue light special boxes. Would purchase a case of fiberglass boxes and metal boxes when I needed a three gang or larger . Never had a fiberglass box 6/32 tapped holes strip out like blue light specials. They have a better fire rating. I always tape every wire nut, receptacle & switches.
ABSOLUTELY 🙏
I am a commercial electrician, t
Metal boxes are all I have ever used including in residential. I used a ground wire pig tail with a green screw in ever box. Ever Metal box is grounded to the ground wire in the MC 12-2 or romex 12-2. Never had a problem. Always passed rough in inspection.
This is a true story. Forty years ago (!!!) I was renting the first floor of an old house, somebody else renting upstairs. The landlord had just bought the place. The kitchen had the usual over the sink under cabinet pull chain light fixture, with three prong outlet snapped into the base of the fixture. One day, actually a couple of years into the rental, I happened to turn off the tap and pull the chain on the fixture to turn off the light at the same time.
After I picked myself up off the floor, I got out the old multimeter; the entire light fixture was hot. Breaker off, unscrewed the fixture; the green lead and black lead from the outlet were both firmly connected to the black lead on the supply wiring with a wire nut. No loose wire as I expected. The socket was one of those where the metal on the mounting bracket is attached to the ground/green lead, so that it would normally ground the whole fixture.
Or in this case, make the whole fixture hot.
But wait; it was firmly attached to BX cable. ??? Traced it down into the basement. Where the BX connected to the next box further upstream, the armor had been pushed back an inch from the box so there was no connection. That whole length of BX had the armor hot, from the light fixture's socket.
I still don't know to this day if that was a booby trap set for me (I have zero enemies). or if it had been there since I moved in and I just never touched the fixture and the tap until then; or whether it was some idiot's error or somebody tried to booby trap the previous tenants. It did not look like recent work, looked like the original light fixture from like 1960. I asked the landlord if he could find out if the previous tenants were alive or dead but he never got back to me. I'd say cynically that probably meant he didn't want to tell me that somebody had died in my kitchen, but I assume that would have led to an inquest and discovery of the Death Fixture, but maybe it was just labeled a heart attack if the person was old.
Anyway, I know in some parallel universe I didn't survive to write this.
Wow!! Thanks crazy. Old houses have some interesting wiring scenarios. Its probably a good idea to have an electrician check out when first moving in. Boobs electrify homes. ; !@@geraldzuckier
You are an excellent teacher. Thank you so much.
That was VERY informative! Thank you
Good general information. I personally at my home rarely use romex and run Metal flex conduit and try to use deep boxes when i can. I like the room extra room and versatility for future adds. Sometimes use tape, always ground the box and use pigtails. Also I always run 12 awg wire rather than 14. Maybe overkill, but my house is worth it. Original wiring at my house had so many faults as do many, like not enough circuits in kitchen. Enjoy your insights, and general information you share with the viewers. Thanks
I will use 14 for a ceiling light or closet light. Or something that will generally always be a low amp circuit.
12 is just too wasteful for that job.
14 single circuit for a refrigerator is just fine.
I prefer 12 for each outlet on it's own breaker too.
No more having to unplug one thing to plug in another.
Spot on! Exactly what I do.
@@crazysquirrel9425 #12 for each outlet on it's own circuit? Maybe if every outlet you add needs a dedicated circuit, otherwise that's just silly.
@@darrendolphdragos9752 Not necessarily every outlet but the ones most likely to be overused.
Entertainment center outlet for example.
Outdoor outlets for example.
I would put #14 for a dedicated refrigerator though. And for a ceiling light/closet light.
I know many landlords that run only #12 for everything.
Too afraid of a problem with possible insurance claims.
@@crazysquirrel9425 I agree with running #12 on 20 amp circuits where necessary.
The metal box is far superior to the plastic box. Any real electrician would know to pigtail a ground wire before installing the outlet. But even for a novice who didn't know that just how is anyone going to come in contact with a hot box once it's behind the sheetrock? The best thing about the 1900 box is if at a later date you need additional outlets as in behind an entertainment system you cut the rock out a bit larger, remove the single gang ring and install a two gang ring and then add an additional plug. If you cut out carefully you can still hide the work behind a standard two gang outlet cover. I have installed thousands and thousands of outlets in my career and have never installed a single outlet or switch that I didn't wrap in tape. It's easy enough for the ground wire to touch the hot screws if you don't fold the wires in properly. And lastly I would never use anything in an outlet box except for a quality wire nut. I've had arguments over the years on which wire nut is better but no one I know has ever use a spring type device like a wago for anything beyond fixture wires. Age, current and load make most devices fail over years but wirenuts and yes the older crimp copper or steel buccanans are far superior to any type of lever or spring tension device. By code even wirenuts are required to have the wires twisted together to form a good connection not dependent on the wire nut.
I don't care for Wagos myself either. You get a far more solid connection with a wire nut.
An ANCIENT old school electrician told me that when connecting multiple wires together, you solder then first, then nut them, then tape them.
They have never ever had a problem.
@@crazysquirrel9425 Seen a lot like that but what he didn't say is you put a buccanan over the wires after soldering them. Crimp the buccanan and then there's a plastic cover that looks like a wire nut than snaps over the buccanan. Then you tape it.
@@71160000 I guess he forgot that little DETAIL? lol
metal boxes with mud rings suck ass in residential. I spent 3 hours chipping, hacking 5/8 drywall out just to get to mud ring screws. the screws full of ancient drywall, joint compound were NOT fun to get out either. oh and the pleasure of waiting for drywall/mud monkey to show the f up, patch the wall so I could go back and finish the job was such a picnic too
Thank You for all the info !!!!!
Great video. Not sure why you popped up in my feed but you provide some good instruction. I subscribed.
For metal boxes, it is highly advisable to wrap the outlet or switch with electrical tape, especially with bulkier devices like a GFCI or dimmer switch. It's all to easy to get a short if a metallic component on the side of the device contacts the metal box.
Not really. Some inspectors will not like that. They want to see the connections done right way. Another thing is that a tape to be counted as isolation should have a right thickness, and a few turns around a device can do more harm than good.
@@antykom1 Interesting perspective. I just started using the receptacle from Leviton that has integrated lever terminals - no issue at all with the conductors touching the metal box, and very fast to install to boot.
Certainly not "highly advisable".
Definitely prefer plastic for old work, cant be any easier to install and plenty strong for their purpose. I have noticed just as you did that not all boxes are made equal, particularly on the plastic boxes, metal overall seem more consistent.
Really well-done! This should help anyone wiring in their own home. It was a concise plan to help overcome the fears of metal versus plastic. I'll admit I didn't catch the problem with the metal box, the outlet is grounded via the metal strap, however if you are working on this outlet it is not grounded until it is screwed to the box. So wiring the outlet ( without the grounding pigtail) to work on it means the potential for energizing the metal box would exist prior to screwing it in place and if it is ever unscrewed to rewire. Use those grounding pigtails!
Good information, thank you.
Gangable boxes are what I usually find in older homes. Very little room.
Also, while it's minor, I don't use deck screws on metal wings, as the self-sinking heads (designed to cut into the wood to aid in sinking w/o splitting) can grab the box and spin it around. I like the 1 1/4" coated torx bit truss-head screws.
Me too, but they do break at the head, which is a real pain.
@@scottslotterbeck3796 I'm using GRK cabinet screws (buy em by the 1000), haven't had one break yet... I do break the t15 bits occasionally. Now the stainless Chinese truss head screws, those were horrible for snapping off.
Great advice once again, thanks.
Thanks for an interesting video! I learned some good tips.
The problem is not the box but knowledge of the code. There are also metal boxes that do not need the mud ring that are not handiboxes.
As an industrial/commercial electrical inspector as I explain to all the electricians, bonding and grounding or earthing are two different theories. Earthing is for fault current as you described, but bonding is for keeping devices, cabinets, fences, frames at the same potential so it does not have a difference of potential.Good vid!
As an eager apprentice, I love a good semantics nitpicking, so here is one for you. Is earthing the connection to earth? And is bonding, the connection of neutral to earth? Maybe these definitions are context-specific. Anyways, it seems relevant to point out that "fault-current" is defined as short-circuit current, which would return on the neutral (breaker trips). "Ground-fault" current returns on the EGC (breaker trips). In either case, it trips the breaker, because either the EGC or neutral are completing a circuit with very low resistance (resulting in high current). And in either case, the current then typically returns to source, via the service neutral. The current that actually goes to earth comes from other, weirder places (surges, lightning, fluctuations, open service neutral, idk). Right? Common misconceptions aside, it seems like grounding/bonding/earthing mean different things depending on whether you're talking about service/panel conductors or branch circuit conductors/equipment. It drives me crazy.
And a side note for anyone reading this, on breakers vs GFCI. A breaker is an overcurrent protection device, tripped either by thermal (slight overcurrent, like when you're pulling more power than you should) or magnetic (big overcurrent, like in a short or ground fault), so it serves as a ground fault interruptor if everything is um... grounded properly. A GFCI, on the other hand, looks for ground faults via other means, and doesn't serve as an overcurrent protection device.
@donberg01 did i get anything wrong?
@@bubbavox , You are correct. "Earthing" means like to a ground rod or metallic water pipe. "Bonding" means connecting all metal parts together to preclude a voltage difference between any metal parts. Also correct that a GFCI is not OCP. Further, be aware that a GFCI receptacle does NOT require a ground to operate. The GFC function is solely checking for an amperage difference between the hot supply wire and the return neutral, and has nothing to do with a ground.
Another good vid. Thanks for putting these together. I live and grew up in the Chicago area so am used to working with EMT and metal boxes throughout, both in commercial and residential applications. As I got older and DIY shows became more prevalent - i.e. This Old House - I was shocked (pun fully intended) to see that "exposed" wiring (i.e. Romex) was allowed in other areas of the country. Rather funny. I'm sure it's safe as long as codes are followed, but I still feel that EMT is safer, and it is also easier to pull another circuit with EMT given the chase is already there behind the finished wall leading to the respective box(es).
Your videos are the best as they are so extremely informative. Thanks so much and please keep up the good work!!!
Thanks for the feedback and support 🙌
The reason new work boxes don’t have cable restraints is code requires the Romex to be secured within 12 inches if the box. Since this is impossible with old work or cut in boxes the need for the cable restraints in the box
On those blue plastic old work boxes I've had a few times where the ears break and the receptacle and cover plate start coming off the wall, I try to buy the ones with the metal clips which have a terrible knockout design, but seem to hold better.
I've used UL listed tape on outlets in busy boxes, and I've used the green grounding wire nute with the feed thru hole to ground metallic boxes with the switch or receptacle.
You could also test the ground for continuity too... that usually answers my question if I need to do any additional grounding.
I've used all three. The original blue plastic box was too flexible! The old work wings would bend when removing tight plugs, sometimes pulling the box right out of the wall!
The gray is a denser composite with much less flex; they are convenient for old work.
One benefit of the blue box was a forward facing molded toenailing mounting tube. I pulled the nails and used screws; those boxes have not moved yet are easily removed if necessary.
Grounding the metal box is a code requirement and a good safety practice.
When using metal boxes, I always wrap with electrical tape; especially using handy boxes.
In all the outbuildings, I use metal boxes and conduit. I tend to use plastic in the living area of the house but metal in the attic; field mice love to chew the Romex insulation.
On the metal box, I think you can loop the ground wire around the screw and then to the outlet. You may need to have a longer ground wire, but if you are doing "new work", you should have enough "slack" wire to do this.
Could just use a pigtail
Sounds like a pain in the butt
just pigtail everything
That is the way I do mine. Neat and easy. No pig tail for me
That's what I always did if there was only a single ground wire and one device; that way there were no "extra" connections to come loose. For any other situation I would use pigtails.
Same for me. Plastic up stairs, metal in the basement for junction boxes, the Romex secured with clamps.
Great information. Thanks for sharing. Don
When using a mud ring, it must be 1/8" deeper than the wall thickness. For example, for 1/2" drywall, you'll use a 5/8" deep mud ring.
You are right.
Close. The ring is allowed to be set back up to 1/4" as long as the wall is noncombustible (plaster, concrete, for example). For combustible surfaces (wood paneling) it must be flush with the wall surface and set back 0". So unless your wall is combustible, you use 1/2" ring with 1/2" drywall which sets it back 1/8".
@@pld8993 , while "allowed" to be 1/4" recessed, installing a receptacle without the support of the box screw-threads AND the face of the wall is a sloppy situation. I have had to fabricate 1/4" long "copper coils" to sleeve the #6 screw to attach such receptacles, and switches. Trashy concept.
@@pld8993 , or use a 5/8" ring and it will be flush with 1/2" sheetrock.
For new work, I prefer the plastic boxes with the adjustable depth. Fully retracted, it makes it easier for the sheetrock guys. Once the sheetrock goes up, use the adjusting screw to bring the box/outlet perfectly flush to the wall. Allows for corrections of minor variances in wall depths.
And as long as the wire is stapled to the stud near the box, the lack of retention ears is not a big deal.
Thank you for your service.
In my area you have you have to use metal boxes and I've never had a problem with the sheetrockers. You just need to know if they are putting down 1/2" or 5/8" and then you put the appropriate mud ring on the box and you're all set. I know plastic boxes make it really easy but after a day on a professional crew you would be fine with metal too.
Very considerate of you, kudos for that. How often do you wind up with extra work enlarging the hole on the sheetrock, or worse yet having to find a box they missed? Cutting accurate holes in wallboard is second nature to sheet rock guys, I'd bet 99 out of 100 would prefer the box to be proud of the stud.
I discovered the fiberglass boxes and they are nice.
Thank you. A great video. Learned much from the comments.
I always wrap my plug in or switches with electrical tape. Especially in high traffic or train areas. I think the vibration can cause connections to become loose.
I use Ideal Armour Bands which look like a 1” wide rubber band instead of tape. They are specifically made and UL rated for this use. They are reusable and clean. I use them on every device so I don’t have to worry about exposure when the plate is off for painting, etc.
I had to move the box over 2 inches to center it over the mirror in the bathroom. I used a plastic box with a metal frame to hold it. The box flexed too much to hold the three light fixture so I put a 2x4 under it to rest on. After about 5 years the fixture fell from the wall. The plastic threads pulled out of the box due to the strain.
sounds like the weight of the fixture was higher than the rating of the box...
Yep, always use a metal box if it has to support ANY weight.
Thinking this is a lot of information, thanks
I have built a Quonset hut for my shop and used all metal boxes and metal conduit with a ground wire . Everything is grounded properly so I am comfortable with the metal.
Excellent video! I was prepared to skim through this but ended up watching every dang second🍻 I did have one question regarding the grounding on the metal box: Would it be proper to just swing the ground wire from the romex to the box ground screw and then onto the plug thus eliminating the need for a pig tail?
This is the way I'd do it,
you are 100% correct. After "wrapping the screw", the ground wire beyond that to the outlet IS a pigtail.
You should do a video on how to get the 1/2” KO out of the metal box for fishing the wire to it when you have drywall up.
You can bend it back downwards using a thin screwdriver from the front edge then back up again until it comes free.
@@kommoncents5853I was hoping to see him do it. Some Are not always that easy.
When I use metal boxes, I strip the Romex a bit longer. Then I wrap the bare wire around the grounding screw before connecting it to the outlet. When I have two pieces of Romex in the box I either setup up a pigtail arrangement, if not I wrap the longer bare wires around the grounding screws (2) and then twist them tightly together for about an inch and a half and snip one off before connecting it to the ground terminal on the outlet.
nice job folks, thanks
Living last 50 yrs in NYC I’ve never used Romeo, only armored cable per local code. Emotionally Romex seems dangerously exposed. But with metal sheathing, grounding is a lot easier
Simplify the ground connection on the metal box. Strip 8" of exterior insulation, and run that ground wire straight to the ground screw on the box. You'll then have 6" of ground wire left over, so you clip the hot and neutral to 6" to match.
No longer NEC as of 2020 not sure what but no longer code in the USA on federal guidelines
@@zacharythebeau163 They just want people to spend a lot more MONEY is all.
Excellent video! You are a fantastic teacher.
Thanks for the feedback!
Plastic boxes are the best and easiest not to mention cheaper to use in most cases. Thanks for the great videos.!!!
The blue plastic electrical boxes are unsuitable for areas that have high temperatures such as attics or ceilings that interface with an attic. The heat causes the plastic to become brittle and lose its strength.
Another case in favor of the time tested METAL boxes
I prefer adjustable depth boxes, which I believe you can find in new and old work types. They're great if you haven't hung your outer walls yet, and especially if you'll have some outer layer like tile on them, because you don't have to shoot for drywall depth + thinset depth + tile depth. You can just hang them, run your wire, and adjust the box depth once you're finished out. They're also good for the next guy because they can come along later and put tile or some other covering where it wasn't planned for, like a new backsplash, and just bring the box out a bit to match with no changes to anything else to do with the box.
Great video! Pros and cons of each. I will say as professional, in all the residential rewires I've done, I have never seen that style of metal box used that way in people's homes, in the "Mid-west" where I've been. In commercial or industrial some times. Keep the great videos coming. ✌
Thanks for the feedback!
I installed a new circuit in my garage as there were no usable outlets, the only ones that existed were on the back wall intended for use with a soft water system and whatnot. I used 4x4 metal boxes, with mud rings, grounded each box, surface mounted all the boxes, and ran 1/2" EMT conduit between each box so everything is covered and grounded, and it's all ran back to a combo GFCI/CAFCI breaker.
Great video, sir. Concise, and direct. Southwire now makes what's called a smart box that allows you to replace existing boxes with them as you would an old work box while also allowing you to fix them to studs. They come with two screws that are set at an angle, and can be tightened down into your framing like you would a new work box. I bought, and used a 3-gang for my hallway light switches, and it was the easiest install I've done by far.
The problem I've had with old work boxes lies with the plastic flanges designed to tighten on the backside of the drywall. It's really easy to break those flanges if the depth isn't set, or if tension is uneven. So far I've had minimal success with them not snapping. Southwire smart boxes will be just as strong, and secure as new work boxes. They're incredibly DIY friendly, and come with everything you need for good, solid, hassle-free installations.
those boxes are cats meow. POS old work boxes are garbage for use with receptacles. Ive had to cut open so many walls, frame in a dummy stud, mount new work box, re wire everything fix the drywall all cuz POS old work either ripped out of the wall taking hunks of drywall with it or got shoved in the wall
I like that tape wrapping method no matter metal or plastic box because it makes me feel "safer" whilst replacing live receptacles/switches.
Love your videos! You do a great job of explanation. Easy to follow and execute on my own. Thanks so much. Keep up the great videos. Gonna install lighting in my shop with multiple plug in 48" LED lights. Would love to see how to wire all the plugs to plug the lights into.
These are great videos - thanks for all you do!
You bet!
In my 1938 house, they used 4x4 metal boxes (black, connected to conduit) with single gang mud rings. HOWEVER, when I decided to add a switch to one, I found - to my dismay - that current mud rings do not fit. The mounting screw dimension pattern is different. I had to rip out the old box. I do not if this configuration of box was common back then or if my house is an anomaly. I also do not know if anybody manufactures and sells mud rings that fit these old boxes.
I had a similar problem with older homes in the St. Louis area. Larger cities throughout the Midwest were built in similar fashion using the same type of product for the time.
I had to fix a NEMA 10-50 outlet where it was exposed, drywall screws were used on the box to mount the outlet so I had to find thicker and longer screws to grab properly, it worked and put a coverplate on.
Im thinking in your situation to drill new holes to fit newer plates on older boxes
Personally, I prefer installing metal boxes, but a consideration in cold climates is that, installed in exterior walls, the far end of the box is in a colder part of the temperature gradient in the wall. The metal becomes a thermal bridge as it is much more conductive for heat than is plastic. Since the outlet is often a break in the vapor barrier, you can get condensation within the box, and I've seen rust on the back of some that have spent decades inside leaky wall cavities, especially when fiberglass batt insulation is used. There may be a slight benefit to using shallower boxes on exterior walls.
Good insight
one mitigation in this case is to make sure the metal box is mounted closer towards the inward face contacting the drywall with the mudring. Usually on standard 4x4 boxes and 2x4 dimensional lumber framing this leaves a slight gap between the outer wall surface where insulation can be tucked in between.
I had a basement concrete wall where this worked really well with rockwool insulation.
I use the 4 x 4 metal boxes with metal studs in my basement. Nice straight, flat walls. No worries of getting warped wood.
Thank you!
Why couldn't you take the ground wire coming out of the romex, wrap it around the green screw in the box, then go from there directly to the outlet--no wagos or wirenuts needed?
You can and that's exactly how pros do it.
Maybe I'm the oddity, but I much prefer metal and conduit. My houses have been in the Chicago area, where it's mandated, but makes retrofitting so much easier. Even when I've done remodelling, the extra time to run conduit always pays off. I have a house in Florida with Romex and it's a nightmare to do simple things. Like running a new circuit to the panel - it's encased in stucco'd drywall in the garage and there is no way to run a new cable from above, through the fireblocking. If it was conduit, It would be simple!
I like the dual metal box, just like you have on the left. Last time I did a rehab, they were not really more expensive than plastic when you buy a full box. I like the mechanical strength.
I think your spot on with regards to using electrical tape. In really tight situations where you've got a lot of wires and small box. Otherwise it's not necessary.
Actually, you might be able to just connect the ground wire to the metal box, and then from there, you can omit connecting a ground wire to the actual device, as just mounting the device to the box will ground it, because the yoke is connected to the ground terminal. I should note that not all jurisdictions allow this, and still mandate to connect a ground wire to the ground terminal on the device, so check your local codes to make sure this is allowed before doing it. But, if your jurisdiction allows this, it can save you money and hassle.
I'm not an electrician. I don't know the NEC from any other big thick book that provides plenty of TP for the outhouse. 😅 But my electronics training makes me very wary of any grounding through fasteners that also provide mechanical support. Those are more likely to loosen through vibration and normal mechanical flexing during use. A dedicated grounding point that doesn't see any mechanical stress will be more reliable over time.
Most places don't allow it soon since it more violates NEC which now requires a pigtail and you can no longer loop it around
Looking at this video again, regarding metal boxes, in my experience, most yokes on the outlets are grounded. Even the cheap bin outlets for 99 cents. So if that ground is connected to the outlet, and the receptacle is screwed to the box, then that is all grounded. The bare copper is also likely to be touching the box. The only way that could be a potential problem is if the ground came loose from the screw AND no bare copper happened to be touching any part of the box, AND the hot also came loose and touched the box. While unlikely, still possible, so I always bond boxes anyway, and have since I learned about that when I was 15. Prior to me messing with that stuff before then, I didn't bond, because I didn't know about it. Also, if 2 wires come loose, like ground AND hot, and someone gets bit, they kind of got what they're asking for, because A. They don't know what they're doing, and / or B don't possess the skills to ensure they can wire things the proper way.
NEC does not allow a box to be grounded through the yoke of a device.
I agree
I think you are one of the most informative teacher I have ever listened to. I understood everything you said and the way you explained things about the wiring and the boxes I am hooked on your videos. Thank you for speaking to the common man. I have learned a lot today just from you and your videos. Thank you again
I only use metal boxes unless the customer insists on plastic ones. I normally use the deep boxes to better facilitate wiring. I normally use tape around the outlets/switches to minimize the chance of getting shocked if a DIYer forgets to shut off power before messing with an outlet/switch. Good video.