I know I’m in the minority, but I love the Silence arc, and how it all comes together. It’s pretty cruel of Moffat to have all of Eleven’s misfortunes caused by his decision to save Gallifrey. Saving Gallifrey causes the Siege of Trenzalore, causes the TARDIS to explode, causes Madame Kovarian to sterilise Amy and brainwash River, and causes the Doctor to visit his own grave with Clara. Eleven had a really hard go at life really, no wonder he’s such a scheming gremlin.
That's something that I didn't catch onto until this year's rewatch actually! I'm glad the Silence works for people, but I always found it to be the most unsatisfying order to possibly tell the story.
@@SamyulDavisit is a strange way to tell the story, I’m definitely the target audience for this kind of time travel narrative. I’m a real sucker for characters like River and the way the same events can be seen from different perspectives.
I'm with you! I've always appreciated how ambitious and clever it is, while also furthering character moments. And I think they managed to conclude it in a pretty satisfying way. Smith's era is my favorite for that reason
The point you made about Doctor Who evolving into the grandfather of TV and appealing to that aspect of the personality (paraphrasing badly) is maybe one of the best takes I’ve heard and maybe what I’m missing from the show at the moment as it tries to be a mainstream Disney show
Since 2005, the show has been/tried to be: - A gritty reboot/Buffy sci-fi fantasy monster-of-the-week -Event TV self-aware of its popularity -A fairytale -A Mystery Box "LOST" show -A character study -A prestige drama -attempting to be Event TV again -A Disney acquisition for their monopoly on nostalgia -The Phantom Menace (An out-of-touch creator who won't collaborate because they were wildly successful in the past)
@@lexezlaoI'm not sure if it's the best description, but I called 12's era a character study. Between 12 struggling with the fundamentals of the Doctor, Missy attempting to turn good, and even Davros showing a new side of himself. (I think Davros was telling the truth for a lot of their conversation, he just was also planning the backstab.) 13's first season was trying to be prestige TV. Higher production values, less episodes but longer runtime like other prestige shows, educational historicals about the horrible treatment of Black people, women, and Muslims/Hindus, no classic villains and no two-parters. But they neither won the BAFTA nor got the ratings. So the Master's back! And he's killed the Time Lords! And there's two Doctors?! And the Timeless Child secret that will change everything forever!!! And the CyberTimeLord action figures are available in time for Christmas!
@@thatkidoverthere682 oh yeah I will never forgive viewing figures for killing the twelve era and series 11, like even with series 11 and occasional parts of 12's era being mid it had some pretty good direction as to where it was going and then they threw it all away for the worst possible nostalgia bait and fan service that fixed none of the actual issues series 11 had
I remember a friend of a friend tweeting "Those were some pretty crap last words." I can still remember that, because it's the first time I remember completely disagreeing online with someone I knew IRL.
16:59 My understanding is that this is _half right_ and half wrong. I looked into this a few years ago and statements about this are hard to come by, but insofar as they exist they basically amount to that the original plan for Smith was to do three series, the 50th, and Christmas, and there was never an original plan for a fourth series. Moffat told him that _if he stayed for a fourth season_ the plan would be "the Doctor questions whether he's a good man and a figure tempts him towards evil", but Moffat didn't expect him to stay and it's pretty clear from his wording that these plans were as much for the next Doctor as they were for 11. (He phrased it as "[keeping] him in the loop".) Another interesting wrinkle is that someone who worked on S8 and 9, can't remember who, mentioned that part of the darkness in early 12's performances isn't actually in the script or in the direction, but was Capaldi's choice. Capaldi made a conscious choice to start the character as more morally ambiguous and to lighten them up over time and other people involved in the production were surprised. (That it wasn't just angst, for instance.)
@@brewster_4 Yeah, that's from the rough thoughts Moffat had. But it was very much a plan for 12 first and foremost, with him keeping Smith in the loop.
3:41 Which isn't a bad thing! See "Steven Moffat’s Doctor Who: Challenging the Format Theorem?". Iterating on the same ideas in tighter and tighter spirals can be a good thing. If you still have stuff to say. Which he clearly does at this point.
Angels Take Manhattan is a good example of this. Stuff with the River's book is basically the DVD extra from Blink. In the latter, it was the main highlight, but now it's done casually in the story's first half.
@@thevacuumofcomments2946I love how Moffat uses the Melody Malone book and links it to the knowledge audiences had when going into the episode. The Angels Take Manhattan is a real underrated gem for me.
The fact that everyone who plays the doctor wants to leave on their own terms (even though not all of them get that privilege) was kind of baked into the show from the first Regeneration. Hartnell so badly wanted to play the character to the bitter end that his later seasons suffered badly from it and every subsequent actor respects the show and the character enough to try their best to not make that happen again, even if that means leaving the show!
For me, this makes such an interesting companion to the End of Time whotrack, where you called part 1 of that the first time you felt embarrassed to be watching Doctor Who. This special was 100% that moment for me, and that stops me from ever coming around to liking it now even though I appreciate some of what it was going for better than I did at the time.
To me I think the dicktr spending so much time on trnazalore is a good set up for capaldis arc because it's the docktr putting on the persona of the good man for long away from his usual routine thst trying to go back to that routine in series 8 sends him mad trying to get that level of clarity of self again.
I've had the same thought. A Mrs. Frizzle Doctor, a blank slate alien who has to be taught culture, morality, and critical thinking in regard to both, and a mid-century swashbuckling hero to maintain the adventurous tone and you have my ideal TARDIS team.
I say Clara in a black mini-skirt, which has pockets and paired with a pair of 'kinky' ankle boots, is something that we should be the focus of the following thought(s), 'let's go there', Jenna made it work, and she was melting the snow, that's why The Weeping Angel grabbed her leg.
I've always said this episode should've swapped names with the series 7 finale, because that episode is about the Doctors timeline and this episode is about the Doctors character, who he is, his name, if you will.
I loved this story on broadcast, I watched it over and over again that Christmas I was incredibly upset for weeks that Matt was gone. The story may be very messy but goodness the emotional beat land for me.
So interesting to hear your perspective on this story & the surrounding specials bc i think i mightve had the exact opposite experience. I disliked S7 and the specials (especially the 50th) so much that i nearly quit the show, but Capaldi brought me right back, i remain S8's strongest soldier, warts and all. Maybe its time to revisit this era, see if Teen Me was missing something in here worth appreciating. Ironically, i think the only S7 episodes i liked at the time were the two Chibnall scripts
My memory of the Matt Smith era is so hazy. Not helped by the fact that Moffat so often made his ‘important’ episodes basically clip-show montages, with so many things just popping up and then vanishing again with seemingly little to no consequence.
@@nightowl8477 fyi, that's a misinformed twt. The native ecosystem of LA is chaparral. It's _why_ the fires are happening. Obviously climate change made it worse. But the native ecosystem is not *_at all_* fire resistant.
Was never into this episode that much, but like a lot of Moffat I have softened on it with age and do understand more why people like it. Funnily, a lot of the things you describe as perks of the episode are things that turn me off. Interesting observation about Series 8's arc possibly being meant for Matt Smith's Doctor in the Trenzalore season, though. I just kinda took it as The Doctor having expected his life to end and finally fulfilling perhaps his ultimate purpose as going "wait who am I now?", even if I feel like this was too much for one episode. In hindsight a Trenzalore season could've been cool, like I don't know how it would've played out but I feel like many story beats would at least feel more spread out, I could see the Doctor deciding to stay on the planet as like a midseason finale.
Davis, my dude, I have a request- Can you Please make videos where you actually explain how you see this plot threads? You talk about them in these commentaries like their common knowledge, but they're not. I'm fairly convinced that you're the only person who thinks of these episodes this way, so when you say Matt Smith's arc is clearly shared into Series 8 with Peter Capaldi, I don't know what you're talking about:(
So Smith goes darker in S7B after losing the Ponds, right? We'll see him be mercenary, broken and cruel in episodes across 7B. In the hypothetical I'm suggesting, 2013 would also be the season Smith does Capaldi's whole 'Am I a Good Man?' shtick. Because with that comes episodes/themes about Danny Pink, generals and utilitarianism. And going into more detail about the Doctor's name being a promise he made to himself. But why would Capaldi ask himself that now, after Day and Time have proven that he IS a good man? And NOT the War Doctor anymore? They're the finale & the answer to that question, surely. The Doctor faced the 2 hardest moments of his life back-to-back (saving Gallifrey/Seige of Trenzalore) without compromising himself like he did in the Time War. 'Doctor Who?' and 'Am I A Good Man?' are also the same question when you get down to it. But Smith's last 2 eps got dragged forward when Matt suddenly said he was leaving. But Moff's ending for 11 was always him realising he isn't a soldier or a general, but the mythical good man, fighting the monsters. As a result, I believe S8 has to backtrack and revisit a lot of these questions. Making Capaldi make cold, calculated decisions again like he was doing in S7b. When he says "I'm an idiot!" in the S8 finale, he's just learning the exact same lesson over again. Because I think S8's material was designed for Smith. So the series as intended might've looked like: -Series 7B (mixed with a lot of what we now know as S8) -Day of the Doctor (with the literal General Doctor) -Time of the Doctor (a finale that threatens a 2nd Time War, but this time he approaches it on his terms, as a folklore hero.) I think that Day & Time of the Doctor are the finale to the Doctor's 'Am I A Good Man?' by giving him the ultimate chances to prove it, without picking up a gun or making the dark decisions of a general.
It all just despair doesn’t it everything you are gone in a single moment like breath on the mirror any moment now he’s a coming who’s coming the doctor you are the doctor yup and I will always will be Amy who Amy the first face this face saw we all change when you think about we are all different people all through out our lives and that’s ok so long as you remember all the people that we used to be I will not forget one line of this not one day I swear I will always remember when the doctor was me raggedy man good night no no no hey please don’t change
I like the opening speech, but the grammar of it really annoyed me at the time. "A planet much like any other, and unimportant". It does make sense, might just be the delivery of it.
I know I’m in the minority, but I love the Silence arc, and how it all comes together. It’s pretty cruel of Moffat to have all of Eleven’s misfortunes caused by his decision to save Gallifrey. Saving Gallifrey causes the Siege of Trenzalore, causes the TARDIS to explode, causes Madame Kovarian to sterilise Amy and brainwash River, and causes the Doctor to visit his own grave with Clara. Eleven had a really hard go at life really, no wonder he’s such a scheming gremlin.
That's something that I didn't catch onto until this year's rewatch actually! I'm glad the Silence works for people, but I always found it to be the most unsatisfying order to possibly tell the story.
@@SamyulDavisit is a strange way to tell the story, I’m definitely the target audience for this kind of time travel narrative. I’m a real sucker for characters like River and the way the same events can be seen from different perspectives.
I'm with you! I've always appreciated how ambitious and clever it is, while also furthering character moments. And I think they managed to conclude it in a pretty satisfying way. Smith's era is my favorite for that reason
The point you made about Doctor Who evolving into the grandfather of TV and appealing to that aspect of the personality (paraphrasing badly) is maybe one of the best takes I’ve heard and maybe what I’m missing from the show at the moment as it tries to be a mainstream Disney show
Since 2005, the show has been/tried to be:
- A gritty reboot/Buffy sci-fi fantasy monster-of-the-week
-Event TV self-aware of its popularity
-A fairytale
-A Mystery Box "LOST" show
-A character study
-A prestige drama
-attempting to be Event TV again
-A Disney acquisition for their monopoly on nostalgia
-The Phantom Menace (An out-of-touch creator who won't collaborate because they were wildly successful in the past)
@@thatkidoverthere682 which era is character study, prestige drama and event tv? like i'm assuming the last one is flux
@@lexezlaoI'm not sure if it's the best description, but I called 12's era a character study. Between 12 struggling with the fundamentals of the Doctor, Missy attempting to turn good, and even Davros showing a new side of himself. (I think Davros was telling the truth for a lot of their conversation, he just was also planning the backstab.)
13's first season was trying to be prestige TV. Higher production values, less episodes but longer runtime like other prestige shows, educational historicals about the horrible treatment of Black people, women, and Muslims/Hindus, no classic villains and no two-parters.
But they neither won the BAFTA nor got the ratings. So the Master's back! And he's killed the Time Lords! And there's two Doctors?! And the Timeless Child secret that will change everything forever!!! And the CyberTimeLord action figures are available in time for Christmas!
@@thatkidoverthere682 oh yeah I will never forgive viewing figures for killing the twelve era and series 11, like even with series 11 and occasional parts of 12's era being mid it had some pretty good direction as to where it was going and then they threw it all away for the worst possible nostalgia bait and fan service that fixed none of the actual issues series 11 had
@@lexezlao At least The Phantom Menace is still a good film.
this wouldn't be in my top 50 episodes but i'm still here nodding along and smiling with every point. man i love this show
I'm so glad that I've learnt to love both this Twice Upon a Time. Neither story is perfect but I let small elements ruin the bigger picture.
'you maaaaaade the thaaaaasies cryyyyy' in youre a mean one mr grinch goes absolutely crazy
I wrote that whole thing in 20 minutes before we started recording and I'm so happy with how it came out.
I remember a friend of a friend tweeting "Those were some pretty crap last words." I can still remember that, because it's the first time I remember completely disagreeing online with someone I knew IRL.
That first minute and twenty seconds is my favourite contribution anyone has made to these whotracks
😁
16:59 My understanding is that this is _half right_ and half wrong. I looked into this a few years ago and statements about this are hard to come by, but insofar as they exist they basically amount to that the original plan for Smith was to do three series, the 50th, and Christmas, and there was never an original plan for a fourth series. Moffat told him that _if he stayed for a fourth season_ the plan would be "the Doctor questions whether he's a good man and a figure tempts him towards evil", but Moffat didn't expect him to stay and it's pretty clear from his wording that these plans were as much for the next Doctor as they were for 11. (He phrased it as "[keeping] him in the loop".)
Another interesting wrinkle is that someone who worked on S8 and 9, can't remember who, mentioned that part of the darkness in early 12's performances isn't actually in the script or in the direction, but was Capaldi's choice. Capaldi made a conscious choice to start the character as more morally ambiguous and to lighten them up over time and other people involved in the production were surprised. (That it wasn't just angst, for instance.)
I know Matt Smith once did say that if he did S8 his Doctor would've become meaner
@@brewster_4 Yeah, that's from the rough thoughts Moffat had. But it was very much a plan for 12 first and foremost, with him keeping Smith in the loop.
3:41 Which isn't a bad thing! See "Steven Moffat’s Doctor Who: Challenging the Format Theorem?". Iterating on the same ideas in tighter and tighter spirals can be a good thing. If you still have stuff to say. Which he clearly does at this point.
Angels Take Manhattan is a good example of this. Stuff with the River's book is basically the DVD extra from Blink. In the latter, it was the main highlight, but now it's done casually in the story's first half.
@@thevacuumofcomments2946I love how Moffat uses the Melody Malone book and links it to the knowledge audiences had when going into the episode. The Angels Take Manhattan is a real underrated gem for me.
@@thevacuumofcomments2946 Hell, it's the entire basis for the Spiderverse movies!
@@thevacuumofcomments2946 Merry Chrizzmas
The fact that everyone who plays the doctor wants to leave on their own terms (even though not all of them get that privilege) was kind of baked into the show from the first Regeneration. Hartnell so badly wanted to play the character to the bitter end that his later seasons suffered badly from it and every subsequent actor respects the show and the character enough to try their best to not make that happen again, even if that means leaving the show!
I finally pick an episode that I can be positive about, and I start the commentary off like that. Apparently, I am simply a monster.
At least you didn't end it by saying, "suck and fuck me in the cloisters"
@@brewster_4 I have been made a forced accomplice to a truly awful crime.
@@DantheManIamIam his parents watch these
@@SamyulDavis After all these years, their bar for me might finally get even lower.
So thanks for that.
For me, this makes such an interesting companion to the End of Time whotrack, where you called part 1 of that the first time you felt embarrassed to be watching Doctor Who. This special was 100% that moment for me, and that stops me from ever coming around to liking it now even though I appreciate some of what it was going for better than I did at the time.
To me I think the dicktr spending so much time on trnazalore is a good set up for capaldis arc because it's the docktr putting on the persona of the good man for long away from his usual routine thst trying to go back to that routine in series 8 sends him mad trying to get that level of clarity of self again.
That musical number was amazing
So so right matt smith did such a goodjob as seeming so old while being so young
god i hope the next doctor we get is a grandmotherly mrs frizzle type, gimme a sweet old woman who also cant put up with shit
I've had the same thought. A Mrs. Frizzle Doctor, a blank slate alien who has to be taught culture, morality, and critical thinking in regard to both, and a mid-century swashbuckling hero to maintain the adventurous tone and you have my ideal TARDIS team.
Oh the speech at the end breaks me.
Time of the Doctor is a very interesting favourite story, but i’m not mad at it.
5:00 Scherzo??
Clara's leather skirt was pure 🔥fire🔥, she's certainly been taking notes from tegan
Wander if it was faux or real leather cosplay hmmm
I say Clara in a black mini-skirt, which has pockets and paired with a pair of 'kinky' ankle boots, is something that we should be the focus of the following thought(s), 'let's go there', Jenna made it work, and she was melting the snow, that's why The Weeping Angel grabbed her leg.
I've always said this episode should've swapped names with the series 7 finale, because that episode is about the Doctors timeline and this episode is about the Doctors character, who he is, his name, if you will.
I loved this story on broadcast, I watched it over and over again that Christmas I was incredibly upset for weeks that Matt was gone. The story may be very messy but goodness the emotional beat land for me.
So interesting to hear your perspective on this story & the surrounding specials bc i think i mightve had the exact opposite experience. I disliked S7 and the specials (especially the 50th) so much that i nearly quit the show, but Capaldi brought me right back, i remain S8's strongest soldier, warts and all.
Maybe its time to revisit this era, see if Teen Me was missing something in here worth appreciating. Ironically, i think the only S7 episodes i liked at the time were the two Chibnall scripts
The Christmas special we actually need this year
What a beautiful song
absolutely lost it at 'the cloisters'
My memory of the Matt Smith era is so hazy. Not helped by the fact that Moffat so often made his ‘important’ episodes basically clip-show montages, with so many things just popping up and then vanishing again with seemingly little to no consequence.
No waaaaaay. I just finished watching this at 11! Wait for me barnable, I'll watch in a sec
Been waiting for this commentary so long
@@nightowl8477 Chris Merrytmas
Merry christmas najawin!!! Can't reply to you, but I can reply to me >:)
@@nightowl8477 fyi, that's a misinformed twt. The native ecosystem of LA is chaparral. It's _why_ the fires are happening. Obviously climate change made it worse. But the native ecosystem is not *_at all_* fire resistant.
@@nightowl8477 Doctor Who from Scratch, 8 GMT, today.
Was never into this episode that much, but like a lot of Moffat I have softened on it with age and do understand more why people like it. Funnily, a lot of the things you describe as perks of the episode are things that turn me off. Interesting observation about Series 8's arc possibly being meant for Matt Smith's Doctor in the Trenzalore season, though. I just kinda took it as The Doctor having expected his life to end and finally fulfilling perhaps his ultimate purpose as going "wait who am I now?", even if I feel like this was too much for one episode. In hindsight a Trenzalore season could've been cool, like I don't know how it would've played out but I feel like many story beats would at least feel more spread out, I could see the Doctor deciding to stay on the planet as like a midseason finale.
goatvis
CLARE-A.
WHY DO I SAY IT LIKE THAT?
Davis, my dude, I have a request- Can you Please make videos where you actually explain how you see this plot threads? You talk about them in these commentaries like their common knowledge, but they're not. I'm fairly convinced that you're the only person who thinks of these episodes this way, so when you say Matt Smith's arc is clearly shared into Series 8 with Peter Capaldi, I don't know what you're talking about:(
So Smith goes darker in S7B after losing the Ponds, right? We'll see him be mercenary, broken and cruel in episodes across 7B. In the hypothetical I'm suggesting, 2013 would also be the season Smith does Capaldi's whole 'Am I a Good Man?' shtick. Because with that comes episodes/themes about Danny Pink, generals and utilitarianism. And going into more detail about the Doctor's name being a promise he made to himself.
But why would Capaldi ask himself that now, after Day and Time have proven that he IS a good man? And NOT the War Doctor anymore? They're the finale & the answer to that question, surely. The Doctor faced the 2 hardest moments of his life back-to-back (saving Gallifrey/Seige of Trenzalore) without compromising himself like he did in the Time War.
'Doctor Who?' and 'Am I A Good Man?' are also the same question when you get down to it. But Smith's last 2 eps got dragged forward when Matt suddenly said he was leaving. But Moff's ending for 11 was always him realising he isn't a soldier or a general, but the mythical good man, fighting the monsters.
As a result, I believe S8 has to backtrack and revisit a lot of these questions. Making Capaldi make cold, calculated decisions again like he was doing in S7b. When he says "I'm an idiot!" in the S8 finale, he's just learning the exact same lesson over again. Because I think S8's material was designed for Smith.
So the series as intended might've looked like:
-Series 7B (mixed with a lot of what we now know as S8)
-Day of the Doctor (with the literal General Doctor)
-Time of the Doctor (a finale that threatens a 2nd Time War, but this time he approaches it on his terms, as a folklore hero.)
I think that Day & Time of the Doctor are the finale to the Doctor's 'Am I A Good Man?' by giving him the ultimate chances to prove it, without picking up a gun or making the dark decisions of a general.
@SamyulDavis You are a real one 🙏
It all just despair doesn’t it everything you are gone in a single moment like breath on the mirror any moment now he’s a coming who’s coming the doctor you are the doctor yup and I will always will be Amy who Amy the first face this face saw we all change when you think about we are all different people all through out our lives and that’s ok so long as you remember all the people that we used to be I will not forget one line of this not one day I swear I will always remember when the doctor was me raggedy man good night no no no hey please don’t change
Not by a long shot. The best is Genesis of the Daleks.
I like the opening speech, but the grammar of it really annoyed me at the time. "A planet much like any other, and unimportant". It does make sense, might just be the delivery of it.