How to use PCIe Card inside an eGPU case with Mac Studio - A Mac Pro Transition Story!
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- How to use PCIe Card with Mac Studio - A Mac Pro Transition Story! If you are like me and have a Mac Pro with PCIe cards installed, you may want to use one or more of these cards with your Mac Studio. However, there are no PCIe expansion slots in the Mac Studio since it is an all in one enclosure. The solutions to this various PCIe eGPU enclosures, there are plenty on the market and I would recommend getting one used and save some money. Some of the prominent brands are Atikio (Part of Other World Computing), Sonnet (Expensive but good) and Razer. These enclosure are Thunderbolt 3 and there are varieties of uses for them. Find out my usage for these eGPU enclosure in this video.
The first part to this video, Am I switching from my Mac Pro to Mac Studio and why?
• Am I switching from my...
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If the title, implied context, setup (which includes the Mac Pro) and the first 2 minutes of this video, which explains my rational and context, were ambiguous, let me clarify. My rational for doing this is to "repurpose" what I already have in my Mac Pro (hence the Mac Pro in the set). This video at the fundamental serves as a PSA for those who needs to use PCIe cards for their work or creative workflow and to show that one can use eGPU enclosure to house PCIe card to use with Mac Studio (also explained at 2:23). I mentioned in the video some alternative options, I can't list them all, and the fact that any of the shared would cost me more than what I am showing. I just happened to be doing this PCIe demo with an SSD storage card and the intent may have been misinterpreted. So let me be clear, if you don't already own a PCIe NVMe / SSD cards, I am not advocating this as an option; there are other storage alternatives.
PSU ma power jump
Just remember to tell people that EGPU's don't work with GPU cards with the Apple silicon..so if people think they can run it as a gpu it won't work, only will work as pcie extension for other things like that hard drive as far as I can tell.
yes this is mentioned in the video
@@ArtIsRight I re watched it and am missing something. I don't see where you mention that. you can't use an egpu as a gpu with apple silicon.. anyhow it doesn't matter.
@2:32 I explained the PCIe connection, and said that you don't have to use a GPU but rather a compatible card. Either way the point is using PCIe cards (non GPU) with Mac Studio.
Also your comment can served as a reminder too, there we go.
That is what I was wondering about! Thanks for the info.
Your channel is awesome. Very detailed and informative which is enlightening to any person that needs understanding of their computer products. Love your channel. Keep up the great work.
I appreciate that!
My solution was/is the OWC 4m.2 & the External Thunderbolt PCIe housing.
Similar to this setup just slightly different hardware :D
I have a Mac Studio Ultra with 48 cores and a 1 TB SSD. I use the OWC 4M2 Express enclosure combined with 4 of the Samsung 990 PRO 4 TB (NOW $299 EACH!) to make a 16 TB RAID level 0 HD and I use Apple Disc Utility to set it up. The enclosure without Softraid is only $249. I get 2800 write and 2500 read speeds. They are jump for joy wonderful for video editing and I have not had a single problem! I also have the same setup with a second OWC 4M2 using Samsung 980 PRO 2 TB X4 and it is almost as fast.
Those are good too. In fact if someone does not have the same legacy hardware like I have then that OWC solution is a good way to go.
Love your channel. Anytime I have a question about Mac hardware or software, I end up finding the answers here!
Happy to help!
Great info! Thank You!
You bet!
You don't need an EGPU you just need an thunderbolt PCI-E expansion device like the Sonnet Echo III Desktop or any other device. The EGPU options tent to be be more expensive and bigger (due to higher power-draw of a GPU they have much bigger power-supplies).
I am aware of this but you do realize that is pretty much the same thing in a smaller enclose that can take 3 PCIe card that would be bandwidth capped to TB3/4 speed that cost $1000. Yes an egpu enclosure is expensive but not that expensive. And yes larger power supply but the system will use what it need, not that room to grow is needed. Either way, the solution that choose and buying used still yield a much better price point that the Sonnet Echo III Desktop
@@ArtIsRight I used the Sonnet as the first example I could remember but unfortunately I choose the most expensive option, there are more affordable options, but it seems the pricing on eGPU housings have dropped significantly since the dead of eGPU support on Mac with the arrival of Apple Silicon, since I last checked.
I know which is why eGPU housing works well especially used. All the other new purpose build PCIe to TB3 can be expensive.
Or you could leave the card in the mac pro and connect to it via a Thunderbolt cable. Easy to setup a 40Gb link between systems. Or dual 25Gb networking for the expensive option.
Power consumption and having to run and maintained a separate OS is neither efficient or really a economically viable option. This connection is via TB3 and get the same 40Gb/s plus macOS has a lot of TB over head the situation is null really, just more power consumption needed. Dual 25GbE networking would cost more than this setup.
I forgot again. Thank you for having such a wonderful RUclips channel.
You're welcome!
I purchased a Sabrent Thunderbolt 3 to Dual NVMe M.2 SSD Tool-Free Enclosure (EC-T3DN) from Amazon. I had two TEAMGROUP MP34 1TB with DRAM SLC Cache 3D NAND TLC NVMe1.3 Gen3x4 M.2 2280 Laptop & Desktop PCIe SSD(R/W Speed up to 3,400/2,900 MB/s) TM8FP4001T0C101 from earlier projects. I installed them in the Sabrent EC-T3DN in Raid 0. I am getting similar read and write speeds that you are getting with your PCIE enclosure. It runs warm to the touch. Sabrent demonstrated it using two four TB NVMe drives with similar results. Since I already had two 1 TB NVMe drives it was a no brainer for me. The thing I like is that the desktop footprint was manageable. If NVMe drive prices continue to drop I may replace the drives with larger ones.
Does your drive disconnect or are you getting any errors like rebooting or kernel panics when the Mac goes to sleep?
@ottawamountainman the setup that I have the drive never disconnect or have issues go from and to sleep. Not sure about the other one.
@Kilo Hertz Nice!
This is interesting I didn't know you can do this :)
Not the top speed but works really well
@@ArtIsRight I bought an ACASIS TBU405 thunderbolt 3 enclosure the other day for $110 (including taxes and shipping directly from ACASIS) -- it seems to be the most popular/reliable one. I installed my 1TB Samsung 970 EVO Plus in it. Getting 1300mb/s writes and like 2800mb/s reads w/ my mac mini m2 pro. I just bought the WD Black SN770 (1TB for $45 from amazon) as a repalcement, will have in a couple days. I had seen someone use this same acasis enclosure with that WD SN770 and got 2800MB/S reads and writes both. So I hope I'll get the same. It's nice that you can get 4TB NVME SSD now for like $180.
I heard accounts of that before as well. For single NVMe these enclosure are the way to go. For a larger pool in RAID the rig that I have is an alternative. There are other solutions that as well that are much cheaper
@@ArtIsRight do you have 4 x 4TB in your array now ? :)
@@ArtIsRight How reliable has the bluetooth been for you on the studio? I got a mac mini m2 pro as an upgrade to my mac mini m1, mainly due to bluetooth conenctivity issues as well as the extra thunderbolt connectors. But I still have been having a few bluetooth connection problems with the mac mini m2 pro. I am considering selling the mac mini m2 pro for the $1050 I bought it for and buy a used Mac Studio M1 Max for about $300 more.. for the more stable bluetooth connectivity, twice the ram and the 10gbe ethernet. Has the 10 gb/s ethernet been reliable for you with the mac studio? I'd liek 10 gb/s to conenct at high speeds to my Synology DS1522+ NAS.
you should definitely look at the new owc accelsior 8m2 (speed 26.926 Mb/s)... it's even more than a thunderbolt 4 interface in one direction
It is but there's one big issue with this setup, TB 3/4 limitation. So unless I use the Mac Pro there would be no point. Also there's a lot of misconception about speed, for Photo and Video 4K workflow, most of the time the max is 300 MB/s Read / Write. More is not necessary better in this case. And lastly the cost of this vs what I have, this is 2x the price of myself including the eGPU enclosure.
RUmor is ssds, that can use the bandwidth of two tb4 ports, may be here in the future, and of course tb5.
so 80GBs, instead of 40GBs, or about a limit of 6000MBs.
or you could raid two independent tb4 ports to get close to 5-6000 MBs ssd speeds.
If TB3/4 is not the limitation or we can do dual TB3/4 then yes we should get 6GB/s with these cards and yes TB 5 but by the time that comes, something else would come along that may provide better solution. Where we are right now is at the tipping point of diminishing return, for majority of creative workflow beside hard core videos, what we have now works well and most of what we have does not even use consistency these high bandwidth SSDs. Most of the time, those speeds are used for file transfer which helps but for daily use with software such as LRC, PS, FCP the peak is usually 300 MB/s and not more. So until software can mitigate these over head, what we have now works just fine.
I thought about doing that but 2800 is all I need for ProREs video and I did not want to use 2 of my 6 TB4 ports on my Mac Studio Ultra. I could have used my 2 OWC enclosures with one on each TB4 port and made a RAID 0 out of that but it would be overkill !
@@donross7820 true and read write latency and random are my h more important unless you move a lot of huge files often.
The slower drive might actually be faster.
Forgot to mention. I am using the drives with my Mac Studio M1 Max 1TB upgrade machine. I ordered it the day after the Apple announcement. The were delivered Special Order from China four weeks after order.
👍🏼
@4:40 man I watched too much Linus fumble I even expect people to drop things on other channels lol
:D
I believe the video should have had more context regarding the use of the eGPU enclosure. Of course, if you have one already and wish to re-use for this scenario, that is a reasonable option, but like many others have commented, it would not make sense to buy an eGPU just for this purpose when so many other superior options exist. The context would have served to educate those not familiar with all options. OWC and NetStor (among many others) make great options for Thunderbolt m.2 external storage.
Probably, if one does not have PCIe card then it does not make sense but this is part of the series about me switching over from MP to MS, so that is the main context. I didn't go out to buy a PCIe card and this is a solution as stated verbosely in the video to use PCIe with MS. This was not an advocation for anyone to buy PCIe to use with MS in anyway and this is where research have to come in as well. Yes there are other options, I mentioned them but I can't list all. If I was advocating this as the end all be all solution, I would not have the Mac Pro in the video and tell people just to go buy this, but this was not the case.
Love this video! So informative, thank you!
You are so welcome!
life saver again!! thank you sooooooo much😁😁 is any pcie card going to work? or need specific one that has bifurcation? thanks🙏🏻
it should work
there are Thunderbolt 4 M.2 NVME enclosures that will allow you to do a RAID 0 config and will have way better bnandwidth. The Akitio Node is a crippling bottleneck for your setup. But yeah, if you have an Akitio Node sitting around and you don't want to spend more money, this is fine.
That is the point, reusing what is already in the studio. And the bandwidth limitation is not necessary with the node per say, but more so with the TB3 and the SSD model that I used combined. Now this said, the speed that I got is more than enough for daily pro workflow, RAW files and 4K video, so sure full speed RAID 0 is great but more than 98% of the time it is just unused bandwidth.
Amazon is selling a Thunderbolt dock by TREBLEET that will accept both a SATA SSD and an NVMe M.2 SSD. It also has a CFe card reader as other ports as well. The claim is 2800 MB/s and PCIe 3.0 speeds. $300. I plan to try it out once my Ultra comes in (late June, ARGH!!).
I tested a few of those and with the right NVMe the speeds are good. With SSD you are capped at 6 GB/s SATA 2.
@@ArtIsRight Thanks!
Thanks for sharing what you have done. Since the MBP is not quite as fast as the Studio when it comes to I/O it will be interesting to do the same test using the Studio and compare the MBP results with the Studio's. I was hoping for 4Gbps. I would shorten the first half of the video as it comes across as a bit or a rant.
A single Thunderbolt 4/4 port hasn't got the throughput for 4GB/sec. As a practical matter, it's capped at about 2.7GB/sec.
What Rory on a Bike said 40 Gbps is theoretical, when adding over head, OS, IO, latency and etc it just drops lower. The test that I showed in this video is done via MBP16 M1 Max and the speed is the same as the MS which I am using it with now.
Is there a way to use my pc as a breakaway box for the Mac Studio. I’m retiring the pc but would be great if I could use it to expand my Mac somehow
Possibly, but it would mostly be via network. You may be able to find a way to setup Thunderbolt or USB Bridge, but there are not common consumer solutions for this.
Would be interested in seeing/ hearing how the Sonnet 4x4 M.2 performs with the Ultra Studio TB controllers.
It won't make any difference. He's capped at the throughput of a single Thunderbolt 3/4 port.
@@roryonabike5863 not necessarily true.
@@walt6010 Yes it's necessarily true. Those ports have a limited throughput, in real life terms about 2700MB/s, regardless of how many SSDs you have in RAID 0.
@@walt6010 There's also another problem. That particular Samsung SSD has abysmal write speed via Thunderbolt 3. The one thing that the RAID did for him was get the write speed up on an SSD that shouldn't be used for this in the first place. If you don't believe me, see Sonnet Tech's .PDF on SSD compatibility with its products, in particular footnote #9.
@Walt, yes limitation of TB3/4 speed as I have demonstrated at the end.
My other reply to Rory on a Bike "... I am not getting the benefit of speed in it entirety, but I am getting a larger storage and speaking of speed. This is adequate for most creative workflow. LRC, PS, FCP 4k does not usually peak more than 300 MB/s under use. So the speed gained would be for file transfer but then that is also capped by the card type used. The questions then comes down to speed for what precisely, from fast SSD to fast SSD file transfer yes but otherwise, it is a moot point..."
And yes my Samsung SSD is not the fastest but these SSDs are what I have in the studio and they are chosen for various specific reason. So what I have work and like I said speed is capped by TB3/4 anyways.
Given that the eGPU enclosures work certain PCIe cards with the Apple Silicon Mac via thunderbolt, I think it's clear that Radeon GPUs (that work on Intel boxes) could also with Apple Silicon work as well... IF there were ARM drivers for the Radeon GPUs... This is shame a shame because Radeons 6000 series (particularly the 6800 XT and 6900 XT) are excellent GPUs.
Also, it proves that Apple could support a chassis with pcie expansion if it wanted to. It also proves that Apple's ARM implementation also supports standard NVME storage drives instead of Apple's proprietary solution on the Mac Studio.
Hopefully Apple adopts PCIe 5.0 as standard, as Intel supports Pcie 5.0 with its 12th gen cpus (and Sapphire Rapids Xeons that are coming this year) and will expand support with Raptor Lake 13th gen, and AMD is about to support PCIe 5.0 too. Faster Pcie5.0 NVME storage is coming to the industry..... it would be good for apple to have a product that supports the next generation of NVME storage in its native bandwidth.
I think all in all this video shows what hackintosh users have known for years, Apple is purposefully locking down the Mac when there's no real need to do so. Apple Silicon supports standard NVME and standard PCIe. So apple clearly could release a true modular Apple Silicon Mac with expandable PCIe slots, if it wanted to. We'd just need the ARM version of the Radeon drivers and it's not clear if AMD has any motivation to develop and/or release such drivers for macOS. It's too bad too because AMD is about to release much more powerful Radeons later this year, aka RDNA3.
I hear you... and I'll give some counter point - playing devil advocate in a way.
My thoughts is that Radeons are good but consume way more power than Apple GPU. But yes support can be done, although eGPU support has always been complicated at best.
Yes apple can support NVMe but when used this way, we are going through so much translation layer that the SSD is NVMe but the signal is TB3 done through Sonnet Controller, similar to external NVMe SSD drives. Can apple support this standard off the bat yet, but you know apple they always need to be propriety. This and apple SSD controller is integrated into the SoC for hardware encryption, this would be the reason not to use off the shelf NVMe because then the encryption has to be run on top of NVMe controller, adding latency and possibly write amplification.
I hear you about PCie 5, makes sense.
It is a lock down. This has been going on for a very long time now. It is just easier to do it now than before with all of these proprietary components.
I guess it makes sense to you that you already have a 4 m2 pcie and want to reuse it,
but honestly for someone who has nothing apart from scratch, it doesn't make any sense,
buy a single 4TB or 8TB m2 and put it inside a small enclosure External TB,
cheaper and very little desk space (and no power to supply)
and obviously much safer, the risk of sinking is reduced by 1/4...
I would just resell the whole thing and choose a simpler solution,
thanks anyway for your video!
it all depends,
would this one be able to use my sonnet m.2 4x4 PCIe which is currently in a mac pro? GearBox 500 Thunderbolt™ 3 eGFX Enclosure
Yes
So to be clear. The Akitio Node worked on the Mac Studio? I want to use the enclosure for my Black Magic DeckLink 4K Extreme PCI card. Do you think that will work?
Yes it works, all eGPU "Enclosures" works. Just not the GPU inside them.
Can anyone create a ARM GPU PCIe card for m1!? Or Apple, could you?
not easy
Have you looked into the 3u rackmount enclosure that sonnet have brought out for the max studio with PCIE card expansions? And if so, what do you think about it?
I have and one of the biggest barriers to entry for those is the price. I mean everything with Sonnet is expensive (but really great and specialized products). And the eGPU enclosure solution that I offer is much more economical, especially with used market. All of these are really a balancing act between need - usability - workflow and most importantly budget. Because if you think of it this way, buying the Mac Studio and this Sonnet Rack, the price will teeter on a Mac Pro already. And yes right now it is still intel, which is not good buy unless you are in specific world where intel still reign supreme, music pro, some color graders, etc. But if you are going with this solution I would just wait for the Mac Pro with Apple M Chip and get everything all integrated.
@@ArtIsRight i work as a DIT on film sets hence why thought of the sonnet as I can rackmount it onto my cart and be mobile rather than the big egpu
For that I would say it is a great idea, especially if you have the budget or can bill for all of it :D
I hope someone cracks the sdd modules for internal upgrades of storage, and allow egpu upgrades.
In china someone successfully upgraded the memory of the 8gb mac mini to a 16gb mac mini.
this is apples achiles heel, absolutely no internal ssd ram, exspanion or gpu expansion ever.
so when you want to add more ssd in a few years no, ram no, gpu, no.
I'm sure some one will. Storage yes, memory is another issues. But then finding someone to do it stateside would be difficult.
can this eGPU case enclosure works with PCIE capture card ?
I would think so, I have not tested this but since it is not an eGPU and more of an IO card it should work. Also just make sure that the card is compatible with Mac.
Is it possible to connect Elgato cam link pro ?
Fundamentally it should work if that card is compatible with Mac. Now will it work through TB3 enclosure or not, I am not sure. This is something that you have to test out.
Great finding ;) Can you please confirm the Razer Core X eGPU will work as well? Thanks!
I don't have one to test but it should work without any issues. Think of it like a large, powered PCIe to TB3 adapter.
@@ArtIsRight My highpoint SSD7101A-1 4x M.2 NVMe RAID Controller x16 can't read on Razer Core X eGPU Atikio :"( I don't know what's the reason.
So even though all the eGPU enclosures I find say they aren’t compatible with M1 Macs, they’re ok to use for my Sonnet x4 nVMVe PCIe card? I just have to make sure it can handle a full-length card?
Also, anyone know why *is* the Sonnet card full-length? About 2-3 inches of it is empty. My only guess is that they do it so they can get a bigger ground plane for cooling, since the card has no fans.
It is not the enclosure that is not compatible it is the eGPU itself. at the fundamental these enclosure without GPU are just PCIe to TB3 adapters. Sonnet M.2 4x4 is a full length card. You can see that in the video, it runs the full length of the MP. These enclosure are bigger than the card which is why you have extra space.
@@ArtIsRight I was referring to the extra space on the Sonnet card itself, not the enclosure, I have the Sonnet card in my 5,1 Mac Pro right now and I noticed, when I bought it that a large portion of the card is completely empty. My guess is that they did this for cooling since the card doesn’t have fans. Unfortunately, it’s size really limits the available options for Thunderbolt enclosures as most are not capable of fitting a full-length, full-height card. Also, a lot of enclosures have large power supplies meant for supporting GPU power-hungry cards, nut is overkill for the Sonnet card.
I’d really prefer a Thunderbolt enclosure that would allow me to fit all four nVME modules and bypass the Sonnet PCIe card completely. However, The only one I’ve come across is the OWC but it has many non-stellar reviews.
Once my Mac Studio Ultra arrives (June, grrr.) I will probably try hooking it up to the 5,1 using 10G-Ethernet and sharing theSonnet card’s raid drive. If I find the speed is accptable for my audio and Lightroom libraries, then the 5,1 will essentially become my PCIe enclosure.
Oh that, yes at one point of a version of this card used to have small fans. And yes the issue with the length is that you have to find a larger enclosure, been there recently. Yes power supply is over kill but it won't draw more power than the card need and if you can get everything used for a good price, why not. Buying new is another story. About the OWC that depends on the models, I have tested and used a few of them and they work fine. Lastly as far as using Mac Pro 5,1 as the sharing hub is something that a lot of people are doing but if power consumption is important to you, I would consider that as well. MP 5,1 are not the most efficient machines especially when compared to an eGPU enclosure that you can find used.
Does eGPU support bifurcation?
No
What kind of M.2 ssd PCIe adapter did you used?
Sonnet M.2 4x4 PCI-E Card
@@ArtIsRight Thank you!!
I always love to watch your video!!
I had the OWC Thunderblade 8TB and got about 2,5-3 GB Speed. No Fans and much smaller than your device
Unlike the thunder blade, his device is an eGPU enclosure with a standard PCIe slot that can house different types of PCie cards that will work with the Mac (so long as there are macOS drivers for the card). Since the Mac Studio doesn't have room internally for adding additional pcie cards, this solution (via thunderbolt) is the next best thing.
@@j340_official It isn't the next best thing if you want to run RAID 0. It's only useful if you have a spare eGPU enclosure.
@@roryonabike5863 my point is there’s no other solution for using standard pcie cards with the Mac studio unless you use an TB egpu enclosure. Do you have another solution in mind ?
@@j340_official Of course there are PCIe enclosures for SSDs. They take up less space, too. Sonnet, for one, makes them. In any event, this is all beside the point if you want RAID 0. Connect to a single Thunderbolt 3/4 port and you're limited by that port's throughput, regardless of how many SSDs you use. Art's RAID 0 is giving him less read and write speed than I'm getting from a single Samsung SSD in a single Thunderbolt 3 enclosure.
@@j340_official Sonnet, for one, makes enclosures that will take a PCIe card/carrier.
Wasn’t the m1 architecture unable to use eGPU?
Just using the enclosure not using it as an eGPU, at the fundamental it is still a PCIe to TB circuit board, it works just not when you put an eGPU in.
Laptop mobile (Hecate) Piller pole
ok
I wouldn't be in a hurry to get rid of your mac pro. Maybe Apple will offer and upgrade M2 module for existing customers with mac pros. Check out Neil Parfitt's system on RUclips. He is a professional contract sound track person to several movie studios with many production credits. His system is controlled by his Mac Pro. Absolutely Amazing.
I have been follow Neil, it shows that sounds creative still needs MP. And as far as module, upgrade, from an architecture/engineering stand point, it is almost impossible to retrofit just 1 part. It would be an entire motherboard replacement (assuming screws patterns are the same) which would most likely mean buying a new machine. We'll see :D
From scratch, it makes more sense financially and in terms of performance to buy two Thunderbolt 3 enclosures, connect them to separate Thunderbolt 3 ports and set up the two SSDs in RAID 0. Much faster read and write for less money. I realise that you're repurposing components that you already own, but connecting the SSDs to a single Thunderbolt port is capping your read and write. You aren't getting the benefit of RAID 0.
Right I am not getting the benefit of speed in it entirety, but I am getting a larger storage and speaking of speed. This is adequate for most creative workflow. LRC, PS, FCP 4k does not usually peak more than 300 MB/s under use. So the speed gained would be for file transfer but then that is also capped by the card type used. The questions then comes down to speed for what precisely, from fast SSD to fast SSD file transfer yes but otherwise, it is a moot point. Either way I hear what you are saying.
@@ArtIsRight I know what you're doing, but it's a mistake for people to start buying second-hand components to do this. It is cheaper to buy dedicated Thunderbolt 3 enclosures, and you'll get better read and write speed. I also think that it would be a good idea to warn people about the write speed of Samsung 970 EVO Plus SSDs when used with Thunderbolt 3/4.
I hear you, let me put it this way, if some one does not own an PCIe NVMe card I would not necessary recommend that they get one. And yes about Samsung 970 EVO Plus, I did mentioned that I had stock of that in the studio. But I'll mentioned it again in future videos relating to this :D