Immortal Draft is an absolute mess.
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- Опубликовано: 20 июл 2024
- Immortal Draft has been introduced in 2023 when Valve has shipped The New Frontiers update. Fast forward to the Summer of 2024 and things aren't looking too great..... Today we will look at Immortal Draft's main issues.
Игры
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Dota+ avoidlists abuse mechanic No1(I will add more if y'all suggest any): You can basically avoid the highest ranked/well known player on the leaderboards which might result in him/her not being able to play because, duh he/she will not be able to find games or he WILL find some but with the same people which might result in them buying D+ just to avoid him/her as well
Dota+ avoid list doesn't work since immortal draft though?
@DezZzO_YT
Yeah, this is a possible mechanic that could be introduced with the addition of Dota+ avoid lists(there's a section at the end of the video where I talk about it)
@@dragostym ah my bad
I like how you use he/she as there were any girls In leaderboards.😂
When I post about immortal draft issues on reddit, i get downvoted to oblivion. Because it only affects a part of the 0.01% of dota players, they won't even acknowledge it or fix it
Oh yeah I also had an issue similar to this at some point but this was when people weren't aware of it so they'd just downvote it lol. Now that they are aware of it, they will upvote and talk about it.
Could be botters and abusers downvoting to prevent the community from noticing
Closer to 1% but yeah
Its so funny to me that 7k eu is rankless and 7k na is top 1.5k
7.8k at sea is 1.8k to 2k tho
Suffering from success
:(
I've been playing in the highest MMR/immortal bracket since 2014 on NA. Back then I was around mid 5k MMR which was top 200. Now that's a long time ago, but I don't recall griefers and MMR abusers to this degree. Now I feel like in 15-20% of games there's someone actively ruining the game in a manner that should get them banned IMHO. I am only mid Immortal mmr these days, but the whole Immortal draft system needs to be reworked like you said.
Personally I think Valve should be punishing clear griefers and abusers with 1 month/perma bans, but thats just from someone that has never griefed a game in his life.
@gobgoble I think one month is a bit too much. I think one week is enough. With that being said, if these guys continue griefing, I'd extend it to two weeks, then to three weeks and so on.
honestly, as someone who just doesn't give a shit about rank after reaching immortal, please let me turn my double down tokens into candy or something. i literally don't care about number go up and don't like the feeling of gambling with what should just be a measure of performance to begin with. i'm sure there are plenty of players who don't touch ranked at all who would much rather have some other reward as well.
Yeah even as a ranked player(because unranked games are extremely unbalanced for Immortal players), I'd really like to get something else rather than double downs. Candies, rerolls, path tokens, anything but DDs.
I just hit 6.5k and have been queuing in the immortal draft, and instantly noticed a decline in the quality of games, i knew this was an issue but its crazy how little is being said about it. i even saw reddit posts on it and people just downvoting it?
@kayZeee I think people have started to upvote it on reddit, but I think they used to not believe in it several months ago and the reason for that is that most people who complain on reddit complain about things that are more personal than they should be. I sometimes look on reddit and there are some posts like "yeah this guy here just griefed my game because he picked Viper carry" or something like that, but now that the issue has finally been normalized, people have started to give a damn about it.
I quit ranked because of immortal draft. Played my position 1 out of 5 games. If I finally got my position (either by rolling), you get flamed within an inch of your life if you do one mistake. It is a breeding ground for toxicity
I wish your video pops. It was high quality, engaging and had inside info I couldn't have found anywhere else.
Thanks, I am glad it helped:)
thank you for sharing this with everyone, hope this gets seen.
I cant really produce a solution other than revert it back to matchmaking and more severe punishments to abusers/ruiners
@Airuutv No problem, I hope so too.There's a big problem when it comes to reverting it to MM. Classic would've been the gamemode which is almost the same thing and even if they'd put something like Ranked Roles, old problems would appear again. Not saying that this wouldn't still be better but we ain't going anywhere :(.
im stuck at 2.9k rank because thats where my skills in dota capped, ive a 9-5 job so i slave away for 5 straight days before i could have a bit of fun on the weekends playing dota only to get flamed the fuck out of my soul by kiyotaka because i couldnt be as good as him. sucks.
I know how it feels, I've got in the same game as a pro player on Saturday and got flamed like crazy despite being way lower ranked than him.
Hi man!
I remember before crownfall I was rank 3k-ish with 7.8-8k mmr. After Crownfall i was dropping like 50 ranks/day when I haven't played. Even without the double down abuse, the tokens are mmr inflating (basically if the general doubled down games have a higher winrate than 50% that's free mmr from nowhere).
They need to do another banwave asap I feel like, it's just not fair, specially in EU leaderboard.Or they can add one more rank between divine and immortal. The gap is equal to like 2 whole ranks between fresh immortal players and the ones with a number.
The party queue separation is just dumb and it's not hard to fix it, hope they'll do it.
Getting a game with pros is my favourite thing tbh. As a casual player I was matched with ATF against Bzm once, I love those games and hope they won't fix that and it's also pretty hard to fix it due too low player pools.
Might be an unpopular opinion but I like the Immortal Draft system, it's way better than queing for 10 minutes.
@lehelkoncz160 I think a new rank should be added for people higher than 10-11k mmr, most of them are generally better and they shouldn't be in the same game as people lower than 10k. An 8k mmr player and a high 6k/low 7k is much more doable at the moment than 8k mmr player with a 10k+ mmr player.
As for Immortal Draft, yeah I'd like to see more of it in the future as well, but they've got to really work on it. It's got too many issues at the moment and it's hard to ignore it.
By the way thanks for the intel about the mmr threshold! I kinda expected it to be that way but I really needed a proper answer.
@@dragostym My idea with the in between rank is that players can see a reason and a reward to play, it gets hard if you need to gain 2.5k mmr to see progress.Introducing an even higher rank would only affect like a thousand players and the majority would still need 2k mmr for a number.
Playing games with the pros is quite rare I think, I only got games with them when I was playing till morning. The skill difference is there obviously, but even if I suck, I find those games the most entertaining, like imagine just playing randomly with Ronaldo or Lebron.
Have a nice day mate!
3:22 - 👀
Just had my first immortal draft game today.
I'm 6.6k and used to think i would get a number relatively soon. I used to remember it being roughly 2 ranks higher than just entering immortal. Now that I hear it's around 7,5-8k? God that is so far off its insane!
I don't abuse, and generally like the double down (as I haven't seen it abused). Used to think I'm pretty good, but ofc would get stomped by teams and pros. Now with that huge gap I feel demoralized, and don't think that is the intention...
Lastly without the double down tokens, wonder how far to a number? around 6,5-7k? You could always dream...
I don't wanna ruin your dreams but now the threshold surely exceeded 8k :(
The MMR inflation is wild, seeing it firsthand in sea, last year rank 5k used to be 5.8k mmr, now, just a year later, its 6.8k for rank 5k. Of course you can attribute that to the majority of chinese players migrating over to sea, but it shouldnt have affected the MMR disparity that much like double down tokens n win trading have.
I think 6.8k is actually decent enough(unless this number grows even further). I am surprised that SEA isn't as affected considering the number of players it actually has.
Add a very long cooldown for DD tokens for Immortal players
I think that would make people complain about having too many DD tokens that they won't be able to use. I think adding a cooldown BUT also adding an option to trade these DD tokens for something else(maybe rerolls or actual Crownfall tokens) would be a sweet addition. Great suggestion!
first game was in 2014 never seen games more garbage than 2024 seems they love rewarding instant gratification who thought it was a good idea unlimited double downs? every game is stomp win or lose, also they thought it was good idea to let people go from uncalibrated to instant immortal with 100 games so like you said account buying and boosted/ win trading more rampant than ever for the longest time they limited new accounts first calibration to around ~legend 3 (3000-3500 MMR) was max you could calibrate
Funnily enough, I got calibrated at guardian back in 2017/18
I'm far from being Immortal (currently Ancient), but yes, the double down tokens are absolutely broken. For many years I was stuck at Legend 5, but the tokens easily made it so you never lose, and I climbed Ancient 1 to 5 in a mere 2 months. I only play 2-3 games at midnight.
No matter if you win or lose the first game, you just double down the next game
So much party players ruined my games, like just go feed to his friend... They have highs ranks but totaly low skills
1 more thing you didn't mention is because of overplus banwave there is literally 1/3 leaderboard are in smurfpool and that makes no sense too.
@goldenpie5945 I didn't mention it because I am not fully familiar with this issue, I wanted the video to be based on things I can surely confirm with proof and much more. I can always make a part 2 since they won't fix Immortal Draft anytime soon
What is overplus banwave?
@Andrei-ei4lu There was a banwave that happened when they've shipped the Diretide and they've banned like 1/6 of the community because they were using overplus which was an actual cheat(even some pros got banned)
@@dragostym From what I see, overplus was allowing people to use all the skins in the dota without buying them. Did it do anything else? Of course volvo took action against something that could affect their revenue :D
@@Andrei-ei4luI think it also allowed players to see info about opponent games so they could counterpick them or ban their main heroes
introduce dd token not able to take its effect if there is at least a same opponent in the game (from last few games), sucks for player bracket that meets same opponents every game but also which should be a way to prevent mmr inflation from dd token.
Or how about they remove DD tokens and soft reset the mmr for everyone
@@DezZzO_YT that would be good.
There is one problem when it comes to resetting mmr. The mmr variation is already screwed over, if they reset it, there will only be a higher chance of this issue getting worse.
what are bot lobbies? and like you can double down on bot matches?
No, bot lobbies are actual Immortal Draft games where people code or buy AIs to play on their accounts.
Just commenting for algo in hopes this will get better
Just need to ban people for griefing
Best way to punish them is to stop buying Volvo cars. Maybe they will care more about the dota community after they see the profits decline. Money is all they care about.
Huh
When you mentioned win trading with double down tokens I slapped myself in the head. Oof
I have seen a few problems with immortal draft. I think the biggest problem by far is win traders and double down tokens. High mmr North America games are being griefed constantly because of win traders abusing double down tokens, so much so people have resorted to dodging or abandoning instantly when seeing these players in the game.
Good stuff brother.
Love and blessings!
Much appreciated
I watched the latter half of Mason's escape from the Smurf pool. Immo draft there is absolute hell. Was painful to watch. 50% of games had a griefer. Also ruiner who doesnt get dire/radiant or doesnt get their partymate = run down mid. If valve cared about their game they would've manually banned all the griefers when Mason was streaming in smurf pool. Garbage system.
Maybe herald isn't so bad.
From 8150 to 6900 in just a week
Well I always DD, maybe gambler's mindset
Maybe the gambler's mindset ain't a good solution
Is Johnny Cage going to be revealed as a new hero at Copenhagen? 😂🤭
Hope so!
When i was close to reaching titan and immortal draft (first iteration of immortal draft was around 5700 mmr iirc) i saw how bad this system was from different content creators and decided to stop playing competetive games. Thx valve now im free
It's a more peaceful life when you ain't playing multiplayer competitive games.
We will have 20k mmr players in 2-3 years if this problem persists
Most likely, I actually hope they'll solve this issue by the end of August and if not, eh, c'est la vie.
We will have 20k mmr player this year. There are still a few months left to abuse double downs.
as a 8k player, immo draft is so bad. a way people are abusing easy wins is they queue with a div 3-5 and the game mmr differences are wacky. You can havea a NA rank 800 in a party with a div 4-5...
Tbh NA rank 800 is not as high as people think but yeah that is an issue.
@@dragostym still lol seeing a rank 800 with a divine 3 is wild to me
woow. I am crusader.
i dont like the double down tokens, ive lost a good 1k mmr through them in the matter of a week or two hahaha
@contomo5710 Hm, that's unfortunate. I actually gained mmr because of them, but that's also because I used them accordingly. Bad bunch of games where 1/2 of them were filled with bad actors? Fine, lemme just pick something stupid or something that I know how to play and I will double down this. So I'd basically get the mmr I've lost unfairly in less matches which was a huge W.
With that being said, most people don't use them for that :D.
If you play with pro players you improve right?
@theproblem6223
Not necessarily! It really depends on how pros behave in that respective game. In the match I've shown you, despite them being toxic with each other(not with me or weaver though), I still managed to add something to my Dota knowledge. With that being said, I've had some games in the past where pros/semi-pros would be so insufferable to the point where there was no way you'd learn anything. Goated game knowledge, but their egos are still super high.(Immortal players' egos are high in general though.
great video
Thanks!
Played this game for over 1400 matches, reached divine, started at herald and I think that's enough. Had previous moba experience been playing league just wanted to try Dota 2. The game itself is much more fun than league and etc. but the community can really get on your nerves real fast. Once i reached 4k I started to notice the real face of Dota and it's disgusting. People with 10-15k games yelling in voice and start measuring everyone's skill by their kda. And the gap between players started to feel like bots vs actual players. Idk what caused that maybe account buyers, maybe increased amount of smurfs in that MMR bracket, cheaters? I dont know. Recently decided to give it a try again and nothing changed, actually it got worse. I guess spending countless hours playing the same competitive game day after day for thousands of games makes your brain rot and it reflects in peoples attitude during games, how easly they give up, how easly they get triggered by smallest things. Yet they don't realise that they are themselves the reason why they are stuck in that MMR for 10k games.
I often watch streams and see rank 100 immortals complaining about being matched with rank 1 smurfs or something like that, isn't that the goal of this game anyway? to be matched with the best players? There's no end goal in this game, you just play it, have fun and try to improve. Not everyone will be rank 1, not everyone will have discipline to play every match like a machine. Once you try to climb for higher ranks it's more about your mental stability/health. This game barely have any skillshots, you don't need to be good at landing them, you just point click em and it works. So it's really easy game of 4 buttons, but people have weak mental game and they lose because of it. That's what makes a pro player a different breed from a regular pub spammer that get's tilted because he can't get creeps to farm due to weak lane picks.
simple solution, make parties not be
able to queue in immortal draft
if that isnt possible, make the captain of the team, the highest mmr of the larger party in a queue (1 party of 2, 1 party of 3, highest mmr of party of 3 becomes captain) and auto assign the other 2 players in the party in the same team
limit the double down amount per day
force recalibrate ranks in leaderboards every 2/3 months
create a report reputation for each player, so the more valid reports someone sends, the higher priority it gets, eventually leading to a sure punishment if a 100% reputation player reports you
instead of low priority or chat ban or whatever, ban players for 12/24 hours if they are intentionally griefing
automatically disable matchmaking for players that have received X amount of reports in Y amount of games
create a vote system that allows a team to forfeit the match before the horn sound, so in case theres someone running down mid min 0 nobody loses/gains any mmr
theres plenty of ideas to be implemented tbh
@nicks6941 I think the problem is that most of these solutions are pretty easy to abuse by people. They'd be very good ideas if Immortals wouldn't focus that much on gaining mmr through any possible way. I think the leaderboard reset is a good idea but mostly for people higher than 9k or 10k. I think there should be a new rank just for this because the skill difference between an 8k player and a 10k+ player is pretty big. (But this is an example of what could possibly happen if they add timeouts : people would either spam reports on people for no reason, or this would lead to people creating smurf accounts which is a no-no)
"create a vote system that allows a team to forfeit the match before the horn sound, so in case theres someone running down mid min 0 nobody loses/gains any mmr"
What if he starts feeding after the horn sound? :D
Honnestly just remove it. Kinda tired to look for a game and be forced not to play my role cause I'm gonna get griefed otherwhise
I think just removing it ain't a permanent solution. The previous system still had some major flaws which would still be talked about, it wouldn't be worse than Immortal Draft but regardless something better than that would be appreciated.
@@dragostym you're right but not being able to get into a game and play what you enjoy the most is the worst feeling tbh and solo queue is already enough of a nightmare
How many immortal pro players are there? If this was about match quality can’t y’all just make a vetted private discord?
They should still fix this shit though so people can still climb the ranks.
A private discord cannot exist when people cannot cooperate with each other. I might have praised pros on my video but I've praised them for their Dota knowledge. As actual human beings, they seem to be quite toxic since they were just arguing with each other throughout the entire game(weaver and I weren't and we aren't pros). Private discord servers do exist I think but they're used for scrims probably.
@@dragostym man I hope I stay shit at dota forever y’all are a miserable bunch it seems
Warning..this is a tin foil hat conspiracy, but I think Valve is intentionally allowing people to make “bot” accounts. Essentially, people have their hands on decent algorithms that look like a crusader or archon skilled human. And they join games with 2 computers and 2 accounts in the same queue. Either you get a free win if the bot is on the other team, OR you get 2 heroes on one team. If you die first, then you can take control of the bot account, so it’s like 2 immortals in a low mmr game. People are boosting accounts for money and it also generally holds the player base / player count up while real people stop playing.
Usually companies like this gather information and do long analysis before performing a ban wave to ensure they fully solve the problem. However I do agree that it's entirely possible they have cynical motivations to not give a lot of funding towards those efforts.
@@Lilly-qt4yy valve makes too much money. In fact, they probably have ties to the website that sell accounts. It’s so obvious that it’s probably a 75% chance they directly benefit from all these account marketplaces.
I was at 7k max this season, no numbers yet)
The funny thing is that before the Frontiers Update I had a period where I actually went to top 2k and I was at around 6.8k mmr, now I am sitting at 2.5k while being close to reaching 9k. Funny, ain't it?
@@dragostym They should just remove dd from draft, and reset rating, but will only do so after they sell as much of dd as they can)
regarding the party issue: just dont allow parties to queue up for immortal draft - problem solved!
the idea with "party leader becomes one of the teams leaders and so on has many many flaws, that would not be easy to be fixed
Removing parties from Immortal Draft wouldn't really be fair. People still wanna play with their friends and not letting them do it will bring even more problems than before. What flaws would that system have exactly though?
@@dragostym 1.) if people want to play with their friends, then that's fine... just queue up normally and not into immortal draft
2.) parties make absolutely no sense in a draft system! either those parties can be split up (which sucks ass), or the parties have to be picked as a group - which is difficult to code in a reasonable way, and will never balanced.
how exactly do you expect the draft system to work when there are multiple parties. let's say there are 2 parties with 2 players and one party with 3 players, and the other 3 players are solo.
how would you establish a reasonable and fair / balanced draft system, where the captains have to pick a different amount of players each time?
I would rather see them remove Immortal Draft than parties. Let's face it, Immortals would rather play alone than play unranked if given the choice. I'd rather see them play an unbalanced party game since balancing them is hard in general not just in immortal. Removing it just takes away the one thing most of these people would do with their friends in this game since they're not going to play unranked.
@@dragostym can Immortals not queue for normal ranked games, where parties can play together?
I assumed that Immortal Draft was just a choice, additionally to normal ranked games.
So if you're a party -> queue normal games.
If you're solo -> queue normal games OR Immortal Draft.
How much is for an Immortal rank nowadays?
Русские ребята переведите кратко про что тут 🙏🙏🙏
in lower ranks that problems is even bigger i think...becouse u dont need too much mmr to lvl up, so im meeting people who literaly dosntknoww spells atc
I think role queues are stupid just let us playbwjat we want
You people are crazy, I would love playing with nightfall or puppey or anyone significantly better than me. Sadly all my experiences are RTZ griefing the game or leaving because he didn't want to play in our bracket.
Crownfall sucks. Milking over four months out of two Arcana skins and stupid mini games is absurd.
Wanna answer for Immortal draft being mess? Valve should restart leaderboards every fn year, me as a Ancient player couldn't care less if i get stomped by an immortal player in 1 match and then the next match i got opponent who is herald and i stomp him. It balances your playing experience, but speaking of now - because my conduct summary gone lower than max i got animals in team 5 games in a row than 1 normal game AND ITS NOT FUN AT ALL. So calibration FOR EVERYONE should be way longer and everyone is going to have fun and crying but they will be at the right MMR they deserve to be at the end. You are crying for getting stomped by 12K pros, but there are simply no more players, you cannot expect to queue with immortal 2K when there are no one queuing. Whos fault is that? Valve. Not promoting the game to the mainstream resulted in player base shrinking and now we have problems in every single rank. Thats why we need yearly mmr restart. Not fn hidden MMR.
booohoooo the immortals are having a hard time?? i don't care bro i'm 3.5k lmao
unli dd token = unli win traders