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Luca, the advertisement was sooooo on point that I loved to watch (usually I would be annoyed and skip it). Great job. Hope your sponsors keep doing coming. Best!
Note there's an older version of this anime, where they didn't have a good budget, called simply Thermae Romae, they just added Novae in the newer version that's in netflix.
Luca, this video was very educational on how native language influences persons classical Latin pronunciation. Have you ever come across a video of someone from former Yugoslavia that speaks, or claims to speak, classical Latin? I would like to hear your view on how their native language influence their Latin pronunciation. I'm from Bosnia, but last time I had classes in my native language was back in grade school. I don't remember anything about vowel length. I can't really tell if I really understand how that would work in my native language. For example my name is Zlatan, but there is also word zlatan (golden). In the word zlatan, first vowel a is long. I can't really tell about my name. It sounds shorter than or at least as short as second vowel a.
Fun fact: the person who wrote the manga that this series is based off was given the title of Knight Commander of the Order of the Star of Italy by the Italian government. She's actually done multiple series about Rome in the past and she even did one on Greece called Olympia Kyklos which also has a an anime adaptation (though it's Claymation and very strange, but would recommend as the episodes are only a few minutes and the original songs about Greek culture are pretty entertaining)
Who is the best at rendering spoken Latin? Everyone: Italians, of course, they live in Rome! Luke: Naaah, it's JAPANESE! P.S. Huge respect to Japanese actors and transcribers who did that actually, it's quite a work, comparable to speaking a language from another planet.
Italian Netflix dubbing is often bad. Maybe Netflix isn't investing enough and the dubbing direction is awful. I stress that it is the fault of the direction and the translation adaptation, not of the dubbers. Some time ago, on Netflix, Evangelion was presented in "Italian" but it was an incomprehensible Italian, the director of the dubbing became a meme and Evangelion was readapted and dubbed once again in true Italian.
The work they have been doing is impressive, the accuracy is debatable. ( As with the youtuber latin accent which is quite debatable as well since no one can find a Latin native speaker who can confirm this, no offence but it's simply true . As a roman I can also guarantee you that Vatican City's Latin is not either a standard or a benchmark for classical Latin). However considering al the numerous, uncountable number of Latin historical sources , and also considering that Latin is been the lingua franca for half (or so) of the planet for quite a loooong time . I certainly wouldn't consider that as if they dealt with an "alien language " . That's extremely exaggerated though. There are so many languages unknown or so many ancient languages that have never been decoded.
I agree on what Luke's ranking on all of the language versions and quite frankly the Spanish and Japanese had the best version of this anime series when they'd spoke Latin. Their phonetics and pronunciations are very close in spite that they're not the same family language as for the Italians, French and Portuguese as part of the Romance language family and English and German from the Germanic language family. I'm not an expert on language or a linguist just like Luke or Paul from @Langfocus but their soundings are very smooth to hear and not very stressful to speak while the Italians, [maybe] French and Portuguese are very weird in spite that both of them are part of the Romance language and they'd came from Latin. German and English are exempted since they're not belong to the Romance language but it's quite fine. And also the Italian version of Thermae Romae had different Latin translation than any other language versions and I don't know what kind of Latin they'd used it when Lucius, the protagonist of that series spoke in Latin because during the heydays of the Roman Empire there was 2 versions of Latin namely the Classical and the Vulgar one. But I think he'd spoke in Vulgar since probably the Italian dub producers thought that Lucius is a middle class Roman citizen and not an elite one since the Roman commoners spoke mostly in Vulgar than in the Classical one so maybe that's their reason why the Italian version of Latin is much different than the non-Italian versions. So that's my opinion but feel free to make a response for it and I would like to hear from your opinion.
Thank you very much for this video! I was in charge of the latin sentences and for teaching the Japanese voice actor how to pronunce them. I also wrote and sang the opening of the anime and wrote all the lyrics of the insert songs of the soundtrack. As an Italian I was a bit sad when I heard that the Italian version went for the ecclesiastic pronunciation while I worked so hard to try and reconstruct the classic one 😅 I have to say that the Japanese voice actor was really good. There were some errors here and there (recordings that they forgot to let me double check) but some lines were really well delivered I think!
@@Philoglossos I’ve been working as an actor, voice actor and singer in Japan for 4 years now. I often use latin to write those chorus songs you hear a lot in fantasy anime.
You! I saw you in the credits of the anime and immediately looked you up! Great job and yes, it's incredibly embarrassing what they've done in the Italian adaptation. La solita fissa di fare gli smargiassi e cambiare le cose pensando di migliorarle. Mi fanno incazzare a morte
@@reezlaw Salve, sono uno dei dialoghisti che si è occupato del prodotto. Mi dispiace che siano sopraggiunti tutti questi errori: avevamo interpellato dei consulenti della lingua proprio per poter realizzare il lavoro in maniera consona. In sala sono state fornite sia la pronuncia ricostruita che quella ecclesiastica; lo staff ha scelto l'ecclesiastica unicamente per una questione di suono. Non era nostra intenzione essere smargiassi, faremo anzi tesoro dell'opinione del pubblico.
@@alessandrospadotto2542 ok, mi scuso per i toni, adesso mi sento in colpa... purtroppo c'è una lunga tradizione italiana di cambiare i titoli dei film, modificare i dialoghi, addirittura cambiare elementi della trama pensando di migliorare il prodotto, e francamente è una tradizione che preferirei sparisse per sempre! A parte la pronuncia, come mai si è ritenuto necessario alterare il testo in latino?
Absolutely, I couldn’t even bring myself to really laugh at it, I was just so happy! Of course the l>r shift made me smile, but the rest of that second scene … damn! Such effort!
Amazing! One interesting thing about the Japanese speaker - he noticeably pronounces 'debent' as 'tebent' with a voiceless /t/, which is odd since Japanese has the /d/ sound. The reason for this is probably that he's lengthening/doubling the sound for emphasis, and since Japanese doesn't generally allow voiced doubled stops, it devoices them. For instance, the English word 'bed' in theory is pronounced in Japanese as 'beddo', but in practice it tends to be 'betto'.
@@kori228 It's not supposed to be geminated phonemically, but he's geminating it for emphasis. It's just how he's reading the line haha. Similarly he geminates single /r/ unnecessarily.
Fun fact! The Japanese Voice Actor also voiced Seto Kaiba, of Yu-Gi-Oh! fame, earlier in his career. So this is like Seto Kaiba went back in time and learned Latin
I’m from Germany, learned Latin in school and I didn’t even know there existed another pronunciation other than the classical one until I found your channel. The classical pronunciation of Latin is literally the only one we are taught and know of.
That’s strange. I learned Latin in Germany, too, and they did explain that there are different pronunciations that evolved over time but they couldn’t really decide which one we should use. We could use whichever we want. To be honest, in the first years you’re not really doing anything other than memorizing words and grammar anyway.
@@Palikkkk and people think it's the classical one because there's an even MORE ecclesiastical pronunciation that's used in churches, that replaces intervocalic /h/ with /k/
Exactly. As much as I would love shows to feature languages correctly, I still would prefer proper acting over proper pronunciation/grammar of a foreign language. Luke's dub was excellent in regards to his Latin, but kinda terrible about everything else (which is fine since he's a latin speaker, not an actor).
@@MKnew099 i mean i actually just learned so much listening to luke provide the voiceover! Its so weird hearing actuall conversational Latin in a modern context. Amazing a langauge no one speaks anymore can actually sound, "Modern"
As someone who grew up in Venezuela... and then later in Spain, I can say the "Spanishes" are very different to the ear! Sometimes the Spanish from Spain is almost unintelligible to Larin Americans. And sometimes induces lsughter-- the "thetheo", or lisping of the Z's and C's and "vosotros teneis" etc sounds very haughty you might say. Also the rhythm and intonation is very different, hard to explain. I for one love both, but each has its purpose-- you would not want to watch a movie about Pancho Villa or Tony Montana speaking Castillian Spanish... and you wouldn't want to watch Don Quijote speaking Mexican dialect either.
No te flipes compa, soy de Canarias, aquí hablamos con un acento calcado al de ustedes y tanto yo como tú entendemos el español peninsular perfectamente
💀💀 we dont have "ceceo", yall have seseo. The only people with ceceo are certain speakers of Andalusian dialect, althought it's a different but close sound to standard castillian spanish /θ/. Att. un galego pero dos q veñen de Galicia nn os outros
@@-Leonelli- Creo que el problema más grande es que nadie en America quiere que sus niños empiecen a decir "coger" todo el rato xq lo aprendieron de los dibujitos jajajaja
Amigos, soy Americano (o como dicen en Latinoamerica, NORTE Americano), o "gringo". Solo tenia la suerte de vivir "overseas" gracias al trabajo de mis padres. Si, se que no todos los Espanoles cecean, pero los Madrilenos donde vivi yo, lo hacian! De todos modos me facina las similaridades entre el Castellano y el Latin.
As a Brazilian, I can definitely say that if I were to watch a show or movie in European Portuguese, where they're likely to speak quickly, I'd definitely need subtitles.
As a Spanish speaker, I‘d guess that the detachment between LatAm/Euro dubs is just a question of licensing companies. In terms of niche businesses like this, Spain and Portugal are not super interconnected with Latin America. I’d figure that when a company from Colombia, Mexico, etc. buys the rights to a show, they would have no idea that a Spanish company had already done the same. From the position of a Japanese company selling these licenses, the more the merrier. By contrast, British companies don’t seem terribly interested in anime dubbing. English dubbing has homogenized a bit over the years from several companies, but even back in the 80s, the only non-American company I can think of involved in dubbing was Ocean from Calgary, Canada. Nowadays Funimation from Texas is the only player in the English anime dubbing game. Thanks for the video, Luke!
I would say yes and no. The divide between the Spanish dubbing and the latin-american (central- and north-american dubbing) goes deeper and way beyond the "licensing" agreements. I would say there are media blocks, of which there are centers where most of the dubbing and the cinema and television industry is at. From my experience and my knowledge there are three "main ones", but it is really a diaspora that spreads through literally half of the world. The first block would be obviously Spain. Most modern Spanish grammar and spelling conventions all around the world is based on the dialect near Toledo/Madrid (all the way back since aprox. the 1200s). The Spanish block from Spain (with obvious exceptions from Andalusia and the Canary Islands), go a step further and base the entire Pronunciation on this variant/dialect as well, clearly having a distinction between the sounds (represented with English spelling) "th" and "s". This characteristic is the most obvious and the one that one notices the first. Most of the productions, international or local, are always routed through either Madrid and/or Barcelona. The second block is what a lot of people would call "the latino dubbing area", or what I call it, the north- and central-American block. They are basically what most people would know as the "standard" Latin-american dialect continuum of most media, either seen in the United States or in other countries internationally. I also lump Caribbean dialect in there because they share a lot of similarities, even though it could technically be its own thing. The main centers for this kind of Spanish would be México and Colombia. But as I said, it is always pretty much a spectrum of dialects and industries the spreads through an entire continent, so it would be hard to make it justice. Then the third block is the South-american Block. It is mostly Chile and Argentina. There are some specific variations and stepping stones between them and around them, but I would say that they are both the strongest contenders. The cinema industry is especially strong in Buenos Aires. (I remember watching the Argentinian Dubb for Pinocchio and it was hillarious for me, a European/American person.) Great stuff.
As a Thai. I was quite surprised to hear you mentioned the R sound in Thai 30:00 (unless I heard it wrongly). Since this is the first time I watched your channel I expected that you mostly covered European languages but this just showed me how you are knowledgeable in languages and linguistic. Thanks to the RUclips's algorithm I stumbled on your channel. I've learned something new today watching your video.
the reason the spanish dubs are different in europe to the americas is because american spanish is quite different lexically to european spanish to a much greater degree than english
i don't speak spanish, but is it maybe possible that it's not necessarily further from european spanish than American english is from british, but that it's just that people are less in touch with those dialects, because american and british vocabulary can be quite different at times? i would expect even relatively large differences to be basically negated if there is enough cross-pollination between the two dialects.
It isn't that further lexically, is just the choices of the European dub estudios are weird. I am Latin American and i can see a series or a movie in European Spanish and i will be able to understand all the words in the movie but their accent just bothers me and the choices they do when dubbing are sometimes horrendus. In Latin American the Dub Estudios have created someting called neutral accent, wich is a accent that doesn't sound like any Latin American country or European spanish and in 9 out of 10 i will chose the Latin American spanish dub to see anything, but sometimes the European Spanish dub estudios make so a good job that i prefer their dub but i think i could count with my fingers the things i prefer to hear with their dub.
@@lucario2188 that's , juat a poor choice tho, one of the things i love about languages like English is that it's movie directors and writers use these dialects to add more character to the characters and personality and identity. Erasing that is a bad idea honestly.
@@eltrew I mean Latin America neutral accent still use regionalism, but mainly in comedy shows. Like when a english jokes can't be translated they will probably replaced with a regional joke. Insults sometimes will replaced with regional insults but the pronunciation of all words remains in Latin America neutral accent unless in a movie there is someone that is supposed to have a accent. I can tell you that not other country in Latin America apart from Chile would see a show if it had the chilean accent. I like The Legend of Zelda but if it was dubed with the chilean accent i wouldn't buy the game or i would play it in english. The example goes for all the countries in Latin America apart from Brazil, but from what i knoew brazilian still dislike the European Portuguese dub.
@@eltrew People here hate when let's say a famous youtuber does a dub because their accent is very noticiable, like they have difficulty doing the neutral accent, so people would hate a lot, just the way they pronunce the words bother us.
10:27. Brazilian here. When given the two options, i think most of us prefer to go with the Brazilian Portuguese one. This probably comes from the differences in vocabulary. Words like "Ecrã", "Gajo", "Rapariga", "Gozar" or "Cacete" sound quite unusual, or can have other meanings (Sometimes even offensive ones).
I always enjoy anything ancient Rome related + I also enjoy anime, so the show was a entertaining watch. I recommend it. Also learned more about Japanese onsen culture.
As a French speaker, learning where to put the stresses both in Latin and English and do it naturally is very hard, probably the hardest part of learning the language. I would say it's probably the last thing they will teach you.
As a native speaker of Brazilian Portuguese I think it is good to have different dubbed versions for European and Brazilian Portuguese. Because although they’re fundamentally the same language we have really distinct speaking habits. For example, if I wanted to say that I’m talking on my phone I’d say: “estou falando no celular” whereas a Portuguese would say something like: “estou a falar ao telemóvel”. These both sentences mean the very same thing, but they are built in a different way that could confuse some people (and that’s just a single example, there are many others). I feel that the differences between PT-PT and PT-BR are bigger than the ones between ENG-UK and ENG-US. Because although British and Americans have different pronunciations and words, the way they build the sentences is much more alike than the way Brazilians and Portuguese do. Edit: typo
This makes sense to me. B-PT grammar is shockingly very similar to English in expression, especially when comparing to the same concepts in Spanish; it almost feels like if an English speaker had to reconstruct Portuguese from the dead with an English structure. When it comes to Euro-PT, it seems very classic in structure, and much more Romance in grammar, much more unnatural for myself as a native English speaker to think.
One thing to consider concerning voice acting with japan is it's a far bigger branch comparably. Whole dedicated schools and many "Seiyū" have enough of a brand, that they get advertised with directly instead "as heard in/ known as". The schools could have very much contacted a university for guidance. With anime also there is a real pipeline from "indy to major league". Enthusiasts can get their hobby into the spotlight (if nothing else, just package it with high school, girls or high school girls).
@@_Lumiere_ yeah and then there's some like fgo Medusa and a seiyuu with animeman interview turns out the latter is ok cuz the interviewee dream is English teacher, but mostly yeah.
When you talked about the Latin American vs Peninsular Spanish dub, it reminded me of the Balkans. Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro & Croatia all speak the same language, what one would call a multipolar language, whose standard dialect in each country is over 90% mutually intelligible, has at least 85% identical vocabulary and completely identical grammar to any of the other dialects. For simplicity I will call this language by the name it was standardized under, Serbocroatian. I, a fairly average Serb from Bosnia who speaks the Bosnian dialect of Serbocroatian, being perfectly able to understand the standard Croatian, Montenegrin, and Serbian dialects including most of their slang. Now despite those facts, at the very least Serbia, Bosnia, & Croatia dub cinematic works separately. Montenegro often just uses Serbian dubs due to the even greater similarity in the dialects. But still, one could save a lot of money if they only dubbed them once. I get it’s a matter of national pride, but it’s stupid. I would argue that the Montenegrin dialect is actually the best as it is ijekavian, meaning it falls in the same accent continuum as the Bosnian and Croatian standard dialects, but does not contain the few pieces of regional vocabulary that the Bosnian & Croatian dialects have, making it a decent middle ground that lacks the unusual Serbian accent and the few unusual Croatian & Bosnian words
Nice to see this in different languages. The quality of Latin pronunciation in the original version astounds me, actually, since my profs and senpais here in Japan typically do not pay attention to either long vowels or nasalization, or just pronunciation in general - granted, we are jurists and not classicists, but still.
Fun fact: in many dialects of Veneto, especially in Mestre, the standard R is basically a Japanese alveolar tap. Meanwhile in the dialects of Emilia Romagna, spilling over into Veneto and Lombardy, the S is retracted.
HAAHAHAH the brazilian portuguese one is EXACTLY like how a brazilian would read that text! also, the german one really sounds like it's being read by your german character who went back in time
Even though we definitely can understand each other, we (PT-EU and PT-BR) might have a hard time, since both varieties have different vocabulary and pronunciation, not just a matter of accent I.m.o. Therefore, I find it very interesting to have multiple dubs in the same language, so we can avoid some kind of "linguistic imperialism". That's happening a lot in the UK and Portugal nowadays, where kids are being constantly influenced by foreign "dialects". Anyways, I only watch anime in japanese
as a native Mexican Spanish speaker, I find PT-BR a lot easier to understand than the European one. Maybe because we are more exposed to Brazilian media and people than Portuguese.
As a Spaniard I do find many Latin America accents hard to follow or simply odd. It's not only the pronunciation, but more importantly the lexicon has drifted too much.
For me is only the pronunciation. I can understand you guys but i don't like to hear your pronunciation in the majority of my enteirtaiment. There are some video games and movies that i prefer to enjoy with the European Spanish dub, but i think i could count it with my hand.
whoa, now that's interesting, I'm brazilian, and I've been learning spanish for the last year or so. and I find latin spanish so much easier to follow than european
The alveolar tap "r" /ɾ/ is still preserved in Canadian French. It is in the process of being displaced by a Parisian-style uvular /ʁ/, so the alveolar "r" is now associated with elderly people and rural accents. Many will freely switch between the two depending on mood or register (myself included, though I am not a native speaker).
As a Spaniard with some knowledge of the dubbing and subtitling industry, the divide of the industry is mainly due to three factors, first, tradition, second, economy, and third, culture and all are related. The tradition goes back to a time when films started to get dubbed and translated which happened early 30s, (In Spain the first fully dubbed film shown in theater happened in 1931) and in the 40s in Latin America. In Spain dubbing started as a project by local companies, while in Latin America, it was mainly the Hollywood studios who paid and produced the dubs (mainly in Argentina and in Mexico). This studios also tried to create a kind of universal dubbing which could be valid for every Latin American country (the so called neutral Spanish). This created two largely independent dubbing cultures, that at the beginning weren't even aware of each other. The economical reasons are deeply routed also in this divide, most American dubbing studios started as franchises of for the big Hollywood producers, while in Spain they started as independent contractors for the distributers, which of course meant it was profitable for those distributors to have two (or 3, since then the Coño Sur dubbing also started to develop a distinct dubbing from Mexico-Colombia-Ecuador zone of dubbing) different version to distribute. And the dubbing studios also became consolidated into very stable business located mainly in important cities. This was even more exacerbated in Spain during the 80s with the opening of new TV station, which, because they were young, needed to import a lot of their programming and with the rise of TV in the regional languages (Galician, Catalán and Euskera), which of course made the dubbing business highly profitable and almost a necessity (and also helped consolidate Barcelona as a big center of dubbing alongside Madrid, With smaller center being Santiago, Sevilla and Bilbao, (places where there was a strong regional TV, which dubbed to their language/dialect). Similar processes happened in Latin America, with if course their respective differences, that I cannot talk about as much in detail, because I lack the knowledge necessary These if course made most European Spanish to almost never hear a Latin American dub, so we are less used to it in foreign films or anime and the same can be said for Latin American Spanish speakers, who are also not used at all to hear Castilian Spanish dubs. So it just sounds off. It is not that is not understandable, it just sounds weird and out of place. The rise of the internet created a way for us to access them easily though, so, maybe for the newer generations, they would sound less off, but for the a little bit older ones, well that only created weird flame wars about what type of dub is better (all are really pretty good in my opinion, which the only exception if the Galician Sin-Chan dub, which is just unbelievably perfect and should be enshrined in an altar and placed in the Dt Jacob Cathedral alongside the apostle)
Loved this review. I enjoyed the so many perspectives you mentioned. I did laugh a lot too, in a Very Good Way. I'm a Spanish Speaker by birth. I understand a lot of Italian and Portuguese. I've even memorized songs in those languages and constantly watch shows, also in French. Today that I got my closed to your Latin channel, I got so excited to understand a lot, like 80%. Thank You, So Much!!!
Even though Charlemagne lived in Aachen for most of his life, most of his kingdom was actually in modern day France and the pronunciation of Ecclesiastical Latin reflected the pronunciation Late Vulgar Latin/Early Romance spoken in Northern France at the time.
During the Spanish segment, you mentioned how you thought from a consumer standpoint that it was a bit odd that they would go out of their way to dub in regional variants of the same language, like Spanish and Portuguese. There is an explanation for this. If the practice of dubbing was always attached to a system that you see here in the Netflix release, where you can simply select language options, then you may be right. There would not be much point to do this outside of maybe just comfortability, and often times that isn't enough of a reason for a company to shell out the money to do something like redubbing. However, until maybe 7-10ish years ago this wasn't really an option. Even that long ago Netflix (and streaming services in general) didn't have the same pull or market in anime, so the old systems of anime were still in place. The real reason all these different dubs exist actually stems from regional licensing. Before the wide adoption of anime by streaming services, you got your anime fix through DVD (dub or sub) and occasionally TV release (generally just dub). These were typically regionally soft locked due to the fact that someone in that region would get the license for a show in that region specifically, subtitle and/or dub it in the regional language, and then either produce a DVD release or TV broadcast. Unless you were specifically looking for a DVD box set of a show in a language that wasn't native to your region on, say, eBay or something even sketchier at the time, you weren't going to have may other language options outside of those native to the area where you lived. So, to reiterate: if you lived in Brazil, someone probably bought the license to translate and sell copies of a series within Brazil specifically, and most likely an entirely different person would have the rights to that same series in Portugal, thus producing two different dubs and possibly even two different sets of subtitle work. Then Netflix, years later in present day, buys the license to that same series for a specific region (this is the reason why some shows and movies are region locked on Netflix away your region and you can get around it with a VPN), then they turn around and buy those various regional dubs (French, Portuguese, German, Spanish, Italian, etc.) for cheap, throw them in as selectable options in their service, and bam, they can rotate buying temporary licenses for the same show in various regions while always having the most relevant language the region as an option to watch in, no matter which region it is. I'm really bad at explaining stuff concisely, but I hope this made sense to somebody. I just find this kind of stuff really interesting.
In the brazillian dub, the guy wasn't reading the sentence in latin, he was reading the words as you'd speak them if it were in brazillian portuguese. The fact that he only mispronounced the first word was a coincidence.
Latin Spanish means usually a more neutral Mexican or Peruvian accent (for dubbing) plus different kinds of words and slangs. The Spanish from Spain is pronounced way too different, plus there are too many Spanish words that are very common in Spain yet nobody uses them in Latin America. You must watch the video "que dificil es hablar el español" it's twi guys sining showing how word usage changes a lot from country to country.
You should check out Californio and Caló, foo. One is basically the King's Spanish, one is basically half English and half curse words, and they're both only spoken in Alta California.
French voice: unfortunately, Latin is taught exactly this way in school with no effort on vowel length or stress accent. It's just hilarious and horrible. In France, Latin is spelled with j's and v's, but the pronunciation of these letters is correctly taught. That means the dubbing actor never had Latin at school because he should know it.
@@hikaru78- ? Dans le commentaire au dessus, la personne disait bien que la prononciation des lettres j et v eétait correctement apprises en France, ce à quoi je disais que c'était vrai. C'est vrai aussi qu'on n'insiste pas sur les accents de stress et la longueur des voyelles.
The comparison between the anime and your own series made me absolutely love this video!!! OMG, it's so cute and silly and funny at the same time! And your analysis is great, as well as some of the comments down here that clarify the reasons for some pronounciation features in the voice acting. Edit: Speaking about the Spanish dubbing/voice acting, they sound way too different from each other and a lot of people from either side of the Atlantic Ocean can't quite bear the dubbing from the other side. There are even some silly fights on the internet about what dubbing is the best and such. There's also a lot of vocabulary/slang and even different grammatical structures that wouldn't be understood on the other side. Actually, it was quite the work to develop an artificial "neutral" variety to be understood and enjoyed in the whole of LatAm alone being such a vast region full of hundreds of varieties with their own slang, grammatical nuances, phonetics, etc.
I will eventually have to study for my general linguistics exam and listening to you talk about this kind of topic in such an entertaining way motivates me a bit LOL
As a brazilian, I can say that only having 1 'portuguese' dubbing option has always been a problem. PT-BR and PT-PT are different languages/dialects. And then you can have a more or less intelligible PT-Portugal dialect on top of that, which adds up to the difficulties. The most attrocious moments are when a brazilian character is depicted speaking portuguese portugese... I think your video on the enormous plurality of italian dialects/languages pretty much sums it up and applies to many languages.
they are not different languages, they are just different dialects, much like American English, British English, Australian English, etc. An American speaking with a British accent is just as outrageous
It reminds me how Spanish dub from Spain and Latam is really different. With the latter have something called a neuter accent, in orden to not define any of the dialects. It's really cool
@@chicoti3 That is indeed the mainstream/hegemonic perception, it seems. However I've heard from some experts (tough I understand not most of them agree) that the artificial construct that is the Language (conceptually speaking) is not capable of defining the actual, real life differences between peoples and cultures and the way they communicate. For instance when you say the portuguese spoken in Brazil and Portugal are the same language, not only that ignores the fact that, for several official matters they're not, but also raises other questions. If "brazilian" and "portuguese" are just dialects of the same languages, what does that make the several dozen dialects of brazilian portuguese? Sub dialects? Dialects of a dialect? Also, what makes BR and PT Portuguese the same language but not Spanish? A difference in grammar, vocabulary, etc? And what makes those same differences between two dialects not constitute different languages? What's the threshold? It seems hard to out a number on it. Is it 3000 words? 1000? From Luke's video on Italian dialects, being basically completely different languages at some points, the criteria to define what is and what's not a language can sometimes feel arbitrary
English is sort of like that, too..We North Americans have different dialects from the ones in Britain and people who aren't used to it, it can be difficult to understand. Especially Scotland. There's rural dialects in Scotland, like in Shetland, where they are practically speaking a different language. Tou aprendendo Português de Brasil e acho que é mais facil para entender. Mas vocês falam tão rápido! Kkkk
@@wfcoaker1398 it really depends on the accent, some people from Minas, or Bahia would speaking very very slowly while others from Rio grande do sul, or Rio de janeiro would indeed speak faster mas a maioria dos trabalhos dublados no Brasil vem do Rio de janeiro, então esse sotaque acabe sendo mais exportado
In defense of the Portuguese version, he used the traditional Portuguese pronunciation, which is basically pronouncing it as Portuguese, and the diphthongs as a simple vowel (ae= e). My teacher of latin taught me like that and it took me years to learn the historical pronunciation.
Pomanam is inexcusable tho. I guess someone has really bad handwriting, a failing printer, or bad glasses. I can't think of any other way to read a P where it was supposed to be an R... 😆
If you like Roman and Japanese culture and comedy in general, I cannot recommend this comedy enough. Absurd, Insightful, Creative with great timing and delivery of jokes. You'll crack right up.
Actually, there is a big pronunciation difference between a Brazilian and Portuguese’s Portuguese! Its sometimes difficult for a Brazilian to even understand the speech, hence the need for different dubs.
yea i was saying that as i was watching this video, the brazilian portuguese sounds WAAY different from portuguese. Ask anyone from africa, you know even their dialects are not as debilitating as brazillian
17:21 There’s also a good deal of ”overrrcompensation” or ”hyperrrcorrrrrection”, when it comes to trrrrrilling those ”R”:s, as, in Japanese, they’re mostly taps (or something akin to it), although the Latin ”R” was also mostly a tap/flap, intervocalically.
If you're interested in a similar concept, the anime and manga _Drifters_ features the Roman character of Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus. The concept of the series is that warriors across time from Earth get transported to a high fantasy world just before they die. In once scene, Scipio loses his magical translating charm (which is how Romans, samurai, cowboys, and elves can communicate), and traipses through the jungle. The scene in the anime has quite a bit of spoken Latin, so you might find it interesting.
As a spaniard, watching Netflix in "español latino" as we call it is just unthinkable. We are not as familiar with latinamerican spanish as english speakers are with american. We comprehend most of it, but when it comes to common expressions, slang, sayings, word connotations, etc. we're lost. There may also be a little bit of racism/chauvinism in this popular opinion. The only exceptions would be when watching a Latin American Production, say Mexican, so theres no Spanish spanish dubbing. I guess they feel the same across the pond That said, I (and a growing number of people) prefer to watch the original audio, in English, japanese...
@@reezlaw It's not, as someone from Mexico I prefer the Spanish over the European one. Dub studio from Latam had a consensus on dubbing rules as; don't use local words, jargons or idioms as well as pronunce each word as clear as possible and the use of 'tu' instead of 'vos'. There's a history for this. Around the 60's there was a Mexican law that banned any foreign language to air on TV without a dub, mainly because of high iliteracy, thus the high demand for a dub around the 70's (mostly from all the series, movies and cartoons made in USA) make that recording studios from others Latam countries join in dub as per Mexican TV stations request so they came with this standard, then they resell this dub version to their local TV stations and that's how it become standard Spanish for this region and most people are used to it.
11:10 I was already predicting that result xD Unfortunately, when it comes to dubs, at least here in Brazil, the voice actors generally don't know what they'll dub until they go to the studio, so it's like a big surprise, thus they don't have the opportunity to prepare themselves :/
As a Portuguese speaker, I'm glad there's both Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese options. Although it's the same language, it's sounds REEAAALLY different in Brazil. Also, a lot of slang words and expressions are different, so a Brazilian could not quite understand what a Portuguese voice actor is trying to say
Never learned Latin, but the impression given by a German Latin pronounciation at 42:22 is so spot on. Funny how in videos about spoken Latin in anime, one learns about the nuances of his own language.
Now do The Last Kingdom (Netflix). In the current season, a couple of times a Catholic priest says the Pater Noster, pronouncing "caelis" in a sort of "classical" way, not with the hard CH sound. Thoughts? It takes place around the year 900 in Britain.
The French "habēMUS" cracked me up. Well, all of the French made me laugh, but probably largely because it's the only modern European language I know at all well aside from English, and I know several native French speakers very well so I could really hear how French it all sounded. The English sounded like someone from my high school Latin classes might sound a few years after graduating and half forgetting his pronunciation and not being sure exactly what he was saying. The Portuguese "accipere" really made me cringe. (All of it did, but that's the word where I literally had a physical reaction.) The Spanish and Japanese voices were really good, all things considered.
In the Netflix channel (or the Netflix Anime channel), there's an interview with the Japanese actor where he mentioned that all the Latin was transcribed in katakana!
Funny, also, how the English voice actor used a bigger Italianism, with ”Dēbentt-eeeh”, than I’ve ever heard any Italian using. Did he think he was voice acting Mario? 😅
25:36 As a Finn, I totally get the necessity of phonemic vowel length (PVL), for grammar: Without it, the Finnish Illative case (”-𐌏n”*/ ”-Vn”; into something) would be confused with the Genitive case (”-n; of something), almost every time. 😅 * Here, I’ve used the ”𐌏” (the ”Neutral Vowel”/”Æ”, in ”Krásnịca”, a script I’ve developed), for a generic vowel; in this case, for the lengthening of the word-final vowel. So, it’s *_NOT_* an ”O”.
I'm a native Spanish speaker from Latin America, and there are differences to European Spanish. Some differences would be different words used only in European Spanish and the accent in word pronunciation. I finished watching money heist, which is a series that uses European Spanish. I found myself having to use English subtitles to understand certain phrases and words that are not used in Latin America.
35:31 I can see why that happened. In brazilian portuguese (idk if it happens in european portuguese) we tend to put an /i/ after consonants when it end a word, like in how we say "Facebooki", and in portuguese the stressed syllable at the second last syllable is a standard
Sometimes Latin American dubs aren't even spoken by Mexicans but Columbians. It depends on the studio really. On another note. I've never heard a Rioplatanese accent before. The most far down south I have gone in terms of accents is Chile
@@sebastianprimomija8375 Actually, the three powers of dubbing in LatAm are Venezuela, Mexico and Chile. I haven't heard of any show dubbed in Colombia (although it'd be lovely).
@@sebastianprimomija8375 Chile in terms of pronunciation is a Latin America inside Latin America. Wealthy urbanite chileans from the capital sound like clear neutral spanish with extra steps, while rural chileans (huasos) sometimes sounded liked arabic or something inintelligible like that to me lol. That was my experience as a Chilean who had to move from Santiago to the countryside during the pandemic.
I think this is pretty true for everyone. The "neutral" Spanish in Latin American dubs is not that common anywhere. It's closer to Mexican Spanish, but you can tell the difference between a dub and a show in actual Mexican Spanish.
Great video. Regarding the issue of two different dubs for the same language, I can't say for Spanish speakers, but the pronunciation difference between European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese are way bigger than European English and American English. Due to the fact that the people in Portugal shrink the sound of the vowels, matter that is completly absent in Brazil. So if you forget about the vocabulary or grammar and focus only in the pronunciation, the Brazilian Portuguese is more similar to Spanish, and the European Portuguese is more similar to the so called "Stress-timed languages" like Russian. Therefore some words spoken by portuguese people are unintelligible for many brazilians, even knowing that the word spoken is in your known vocabulary. When I try to watch a comedy show, for exemple, with European Portuguese dub, of course I understand 98% of the lines but sometimes you have to stop and think in the word that is been said, making the show less enjoyable as if It were in Brazilian Portuguese.
As a native Spanish speaker I can definitely say Latin-American “dialects” differ much from each other, as well as European Spanish, which we usually call Castilian. They not only vary in accentuation but Latin Spanish and Castilian specially differ in the meaning of some terms and idioms. This is why most works, when translated, commonly have a Latin-American (often Mexican) and a Castilian dub. While most Spanish speakers have no trouble understanding each other regardless of nationality, the spoken differences are much more noticeable than they are between English dialects, even among adjacent Latin-American countries. I suppose this is due to each region retaining some linguistic roots of their indigenous tongues once classical Spanish became the official language.
You have to react to the movie "Imperator" by Konrad Łęcki. It's a 40 minute movie made by some studens with what seems to be really good spoken Latin!
Finally, my suggestion came true and thanks Luke for the analysis of that anime series and hopefully you should also analyse the live action film version as well and the Japanese actor who'd played as a Roman protagonist who'd later travelled to modern day Japan also spoke Latin as well as he was interviewed for the promotion of his movie. And I'll make another suggestion, Luke for a future episode. Maybe if you could analyse the Latin terms on laws or judiciary branch since most of it were Latin origin and also there are some Latin terms that been use on scientific and medical terms that you should analyse it as your next episode. So I hope that you could do that soon and continue your vlogs about Latin language. 😉
Thank you so much for yet another entertaining and educational video! I dont know if you've been asked this before but would you consider doing a take on the Latin for The Passion of the Christ? I know it is potentially contentious (specially on the graphic violence) but it is something that ive been dying to get a prospect and analysis from a fluent speaker and historian. Much appreciated!
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you very much! I confess that I was looking forward to a bit of a take on the roman soldiers that tormented jesus, but ive read takes that their pronounciation/lines were next to gibberish to understand! Nonetheless, salut!
It’s the second time watching this video, it’s still super funny. Especially the italian one, he has the stereotypical italian voice actor voice which gives e nostalgia
I agree. The Latin had some grammatical errors and was less idiomatic in the Italian dub, especially where he says "Sīc Rōmānōrum prīncipātō vostra prōvincia adjuncta etiam vestrōs mōrēs in potestāte cognōscere sumus".
There was a weird thing I felt during this show. I only have SCRAPS of an understanding of Latin beyond it's use in English roots, but I feel like I can hear the Japanese affect on almost all of the words. So I know it sounds slightly wrong without knowing how it would sound if it was right. It's interesting to hear from someone more informed how they did with it.
I’ve only seen the original Thermae Romae. In the original, Lucius is blonde haired and blue eyed. It was also intentionally limited in animation. So it looked like it was flash animated, making it funnier. In the original episode 7, he says “Fer mihi auxilium” for “help me!” Which I thought seemed silly.
Hi PolýMATHY, British fan here. I think with dubs in regards into different dialects of English is that they are usually only used for preschool programmes as far as I know, for example Bob the Builder is a British children's show, but it was dubbed into American English for American children. Please keep up the good work.
Hello @polýMATHY, thank you for your video. I'm one of the italian translators who worked at Thermae Romae Novae. In the series there are a lot of latin sequences; with the support of someone who knows latin, we changed the original text for two reasons. Reason 1: lip-sync doesn't matched with the voice lines, so we were forced to add addictional text. Reason 2: latin grammar was wrong. You said "Italians made something that is far less comprehensible and much less latin." May I ask you why? We think our sentences are more grammatically correct, compared to the original japanese version. (p.s - The ecclesiastical pronunciation was chosen only because of its sound, and obviously it is not a representation of the sound of latin in ancient times) Best regards, Alessandro Spadotto.
EDIT: Aggiungo qui qualche commento qui per il beneficio di coloro che vogliano sapere. 1) The lip-sync is a strange motivation, since in anime there is very little attempt to synchronize lip movements *even in the original Japanese* ; moreover, the lips were animated for the original Latin text, thus this point does not make much sense. 2) The Latin text in the Italian version has more errors than the original Japanese. As I explained in the video, "Hīc amīcum meum ferre possum?" is wrong because the adverb "hūc" is necessary. Errors of this type don't happen until Late Latin, and they don't even occur in the 5cAD Vulgate Bible. They do however happen in Koine Greek. But not in Latin of the 2cAD. The use of "afferre" is fine, but unnecessary; I assume the translator wanted to avoid the sound of "duce," as others have suggested to me in the comments, but I think this is silly if that was his intent. "Verba mea dīligenter omnēs audīte" is fine. "Pulcherrimae thermae plānā faciē gentī sunt." The dative of possession doesn't make sense here. "The beautiful baths are of the flat-faced people." This doesn't carry meaning within the context of the scene. While it is "Latin," I can only image a Latin speaker saying something so odd if he were having a stroke. It could also be the translator meant "the baths are beautiful to the flat-faced people." But again, this is nearly meaningless in context. "Sīc Rōmānōrum prīncipātō vostrā prōvinciā adjūnctā etiam vestrōs mōrēs in potestāte cognōscere sumus." This is a mix of idioms and usages applied by someone who clearly doesn't speak Latin; e.g. "in potestāte esse" is used rarely, and inserting “cognōscere” there is also very strange. “Prīncipātō” (dative case) is not a word, since the nominative would have to be “prīncipātum,” which does not exist. The most similar word is “prīncipātus” which refers to the rulership of an emperor, a “prīnceps.” But I have not found this term used for the geographical territory of an empire, nor for the state of the Roman Empire. Because it is a fourth declension noun, it has to be “prīncipātuī.” But like I said, this isn’t how the word is used in Latin. The original Latin from the Japanese version was much better in circumlocuting this. The fact that the translator mixes “vostrā” with “vestrōs” is probably just carelessness. Others have used such things to express dialect differences, which can be interesting. But in the same sentence? No way. Moreover, Lucius Modestus is from Rome, so using the rural “vostrā” instead of urban “vestrā” is like a Milanese man using Neapolitan grammar unironically. “Verba mea intellegitisne?” Not great, since -ne is enclitic and postpositive to the first word in the sentence. “Verbane mea intellegitis?” is correct. Or, “Intellegitisne verba mea?” etc. The only way the Italian’s line works is if it is “Verba mea, intellegetisne?” but the voice actor does not pause. Even with the pause it would be very odd. I’m baffled trying to figure out what the translator meant here. This is what he wrote: “Listen carefully to my words, all of you. The beautiful baths are of the flat-faced people. Thus, with your province having been added to the rulership, we are also in power to get to know your customs. My words, do you understand them?” My translation into English here should sound very odd to native speakers of English, as does the Latin of the Italian version. And it does not communicate what Lucius actually wants from them. The moral of the story is that translators for this kind of work should probably be fluent speakers of Latin. I’m sure the person who gave you the translation worked hard on it, but his knowledge of the language sounds like the typical college professor in Italy; i.e., a person who *thinks* he knows the language, but never having learned or been trained how to express himself in casual conversation in Latin, cannot produce the language effectively for such situations. As I said in the video, I didn't have much problem with the Ecclesiastical pronunciation.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you very much for your explanation. About the lip-sync: I can guarantee original animation DOES NOT respect Kenjiro Tsuda's japanese voice (the seiyuu). His mouth keeps moving while he doesn't speak, and sometimes he speaks but his mouth doesn't move. Japanese always do so, they don't pay attention to lip sync. They record voice actors before animations, and then animators make inaccurate frames in order to generically fill the soundwave... if we had left the original sentences, voice acting would have been desynchronized (like the original).
@@danielantony1882 I know, and I respect your opinion. But Lip-sync is something "Italian Dubbing" always looks for, and there is nothing to do about it. It is considered one of the most important thing; the director told me my lines were short anyway, and they added a lot of text while recording (not in the latin sentences in particular, because it was impossible to improvise new latin lines).
Luke, what I enjoyed most about this video was hearing people from lots of different countries saying the same Latin phrases. If only it were easy to get this kind of audio resource made by people who actually know and understand Latin.
Hi! This would be the first time hearing a spoken classical Latin, but that was really beautiful. I don't really understand, but I think it was kind of melodic? Like music, I feel like there're ups and downs in both loudness and tone. Thank you for the content - and for your beautiful voice! Also, I learned from Dogen-san, also a RUclipsr, that Japanese language have speech accent.
![Megan Thee Stallion - Bigger In Texas [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QxTkZTLWdo4/mqdefault.jpg)
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Luca, you should review latin works on youtube like "Caesar - de Bello Gallico. Liber I" (which I spoken in classical latin (ThePrinceSterling)
Luca, the advertisement was sooooo on point that I loved to watch (usually I would be annoyed and skip it). Great job. Hope your sponsors keep doing coming. Best!
Note there's an older version of this anime, where they didn't have a good budget, called simply Thermae Romae, they just added Novae in the newer version that's in netflix.
Have you a review of "The Hobbit" in latin? I have read some opinions saying that it is not good.
Luca, this video was very educational on how native language influences persons classical Latin pronunciation. Have you ever come across a video of someone from former Yugoslavia that speaks, or claims to speak, classical Latin? I would like to hear your view on how their native language influence their Latin pronunciation.
I'm from Bosnia, but last time I had classes in my native language was back in grade school. I don't remember anything about vowel length. I can't really tell if I really understand how that would work in my native language.
For example my name is Zlatan, but there is also word zlatan (golden). In the word zlatan, first vowel a is long. I can't really tell about my name. It sounds shorter than or at least as short as second vowel a.
Fun fact: the person who wrote the manga that this series is based off was given the title of Knight Commander of the Order of the Star of Italy by the Italian government. She's actually done multiple series about Rome in the past and she even did one on Greece called Olympia Kyklos which also has a an anime adaptation (though it's Claymation and very strange, but would recommend as the episodes are only a few minutes and the original songs about Greek culture are pretty entertaining)
I'm enjoying people discovering this delightful classic series for the first time via the new Netflix version.
Smal nitpick: in Italy the knighthood is awarded by the president, not by the governament.
@@tafazzi-on-discord Yeah, it makes it more important hahaha
Olympia Kyklos is amazing, so funny and weird. I love the bard
i read the manga years ago and had no idea the author also wrote other series, will definitely check them out.
thanks for letting me know 👍
Who is the best at rendering spoken Latin?
Everyone: Italians, of course, they live in Rome!
Luke: Naaah, it's JAPANESE!
P.S. Huge respect to Japanese actors and transcribers who did that actually, it's quite a work, comparable to speaking a language from another planet.
Italian Netflix dubbing is often bad. Maybe Netflix isn't investing enough and the dubbing direction is awful. I stress that it is the fault of the direction and the translation adaptation, not of the dubbers. Some time ago, on Netflix, Evangelion was presented in "Italian" but it was an incomprehensible Italian, the director of the dubbing became a meme and Evangelion was readapted and dubbed once again in true Italian.
@@JoutenShin never forget Cannarsi
The work they have been doing is impressive, the accuracy is debatable. ( As with the youtuber latin accent which is quite debatable as well since no one can find a Latin native speaker who can confirm this, no offence but it's simply true . As a roman I can also guarantee you that Vatican City's Latin is not either a standard or a benchmark for classical Latin). However considering al the numerous, uncountable number of Latin historical sources , and also considering that Latin is been the lingua franca for half (or so) of the planet for quite a loooong time . I certainly wouldn't consider that as if they dealt with an "alien language " . That's extremely exaggerated though. There are so many languages unknown or so many ancient languages that have never been decoded.
*hears anime Engrish * "Haha they can't possibly touch Latin...... Right....?"
I agree on what Luke's ranking on all of the language versions and quite frankly the Spanish and Japanese had the best version of this anime series when they'd spoke Latin. Their phonetics and pronunciations are very close in spite that they're not the same family language as for the Italians, French and Portuguese as part of the Romance language family and English and German from the Germanic language family. I'm not an expert on language or a linguist just like Luke or Paul from @Langfocus but their soundings are very smooth to hear and not very stressful to speak while the Italians, [maybe] French and Portuguese are very weird in spite that both of them are part of the Romance language and they'd came from Latin. German and English are exempted since they're not belong to the Romance language but it's quite fine.
And also the Italian version of Thermae Romae had different Latin translation than any other language versions and I don't know what kind of Latin they'd used it when Lucius, the protagonist of that series spoke in Latin because during the heydays of the Roman Empire there was 2 versions of Latin namely the Classical and the Vulgar one. But I think he'd spoke in Vulgar since probably the Italian dub producers thought that Lucius is a middle class Roman citizen and not an elite one since the Roman commoners spoke mostly in Vulgar than in the Classical one so maybe that's their reason why the Italian version of Latin is much different than the non-Italian versions. So that's my opinion but feel free to make a response for it and I would like to hear from your opinion.
Thank you very much for this video! I was in charge of the latin sentences and for teaching the Japanese voice actor how to pronunce them. I also wrote and sang the opening of the anime and wrote all the lyrics of the insert songs of the soundtrack.
As an Italian I was a bit sad when I heard that the Italian version went for the ecclesiastic pronunciation while I worked so hard to try and reconstruct the classic one 😅 I have to say that the Japanese voice actor was really good. There were some errors here and there (recordings that they forgot to let me double check) but some lines were really well delivered I think!
Amazing! How did they end up hiring you to do the Latin?
@@Philoglossos I’ve been working as an actor, voice actor and singer in Japan for 4 years now. I often use latin to write those chorus songs you hear a lot in fantasy anime.
You! I saw you in the credits of the anime and immediately looked you up! Great job and yes, it's incredibly embarrassing what they've done in the Italian adaptation. La solita fissa di fare gli smargiassi e cambiare le cose pensando di migliorarle. Mi fanno incazzare a morte
@@reezlaw Salve, sono uno dei dialoghisti che si è occupato del prodotto. Mi dispiace che siano sopraggiunti tutti questi errori: avevamo interpellato dei consulenti della lingua proprio per poter realizzare il lavoro in maniera consona. In sala sono state fornite sia la pronuncia ricostruita che quella ecclesiastica; lo staff ha scelto l'ecclesiastica unicamente per una questione di suono. Non era nostra intenzione essere smargiassi, faremo anzi tesoro dell'opinione del pubblico.
@@alessandrospadotto2542 ok, mi scuso per i toni, adesso mi sento in colpa... purtroppo c'è una lunga tradizione italiana di cambiare i titoli dei film, modificare i dialoghi, addirittura cambiare elementi della trama pensando di migliorare il prodotto, e francamente è una tradizione che preferirei sparisse per sempre! A parte la pronuncia, come mai si è ritenuto necessario alterare il testo in latino?
The English-speaker deserves first place just for the way he says "possum?".
Hahah
Hahahae
perhaps their only reference for the word was from Barry Humpries' Dame Edna Everage :D
@@polyMATHY_Luke Hahahæ
posh
Hearing a Japanese man speak Latin is pretty amazing
Absolutely, I couldn’t even bring myself to really laugh at it, I was just so happy!
Of course the l>r shift made me smile, but the rest of that second scene … damn! Such effort!
Inverse Weebs.
Amazing! One interesting thing about the Japanese speaker - he noticeably pronounces 'debent' as 'tebent' with a voiceless /t/, which is odd since Japanese has the /d/ sound. The reason for this is probably that he's lengthening/doubling the sound for emphasis, and since Japanese doesn't generally allow voiced doubled stops, it devoices them. For instance, the English word 'bed' in theory is pronounced in Japanese as 'beddo', but in practice it tends to be 'betto'.
Thanks for this note! I ultimately cut it from the reshoot for time.
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Still waiting for new content, Paleogloss!
why would the /d/ be doubled in that environment? it's the vowel that's long
@@kori228 It's not supposed to be geminated phonemically, but he's geminating it for emphasis. It's just how he's reading the line haha. Similarly he geminates single /r/ unnecessarily.
@@kori228 Sorry, are you talking about 'bed' or about 'debent'?
Your pronunciation of the (High) German "r" sound is SPOT ON. Never heard a foreigner nail that sound until now. 100% perfect.
Danke
So that's where Yiddish gets it.
Fun fact! The Japanese Voice Actor also voiced Seto Kaiba, of Yu-Gi-Oh! fame, earlier in his career. So this is like Seto Kaiba went back in time and learned Latin
Or maybe Priest Seto went forward in time and Learned Latin?
@@magister343 Just one of his many reincarnations.
@@alecmcguinness9390 all on his way to fortune before getting caught up in a childrens card game.
@@Motleydoll123 "Spongepants Squarebob, he's a friendly little guy..."
Lol i knew it i could hear him summoning obilisk the tormentor
I’m from Germany, learned Latin in school and I didn’t even know there existed another pronunciation other than the classical one until I found your channel. The classical pronunciation of Latin is literally the only one we are taught and know of.
That German pronunciation was really whack. The worst of them all! LOL.
In Italy it's the opposite lol, in high school I was taught Latin only in the ecclesiastical pronunciation
It's the same in France. If i hadn't found this channel, i would never have known there was an ecclesiastical pronunciation xD
That’s strange. I learned Latin in Germany, too, and they did explain that there are different pronunciations that evolved over time but they couldn’t really decide which one we should use. We could use whichever we want. To be honest, in the first years you’re not really doing anything other than memorizing words and grammar anyway.
@@Palikkkk and people think it's the classical one because there's an even MORE ecclesiastical pronunciation that's used in churches, that replaces intervocalic /h/ with /k/
Your dub was uncannily calm considering the character's gesticulations.
Exactly. As much as I would love shows to feature languages correctly, I still would prefer proper acting over proper pronunciation/grammar of a foreign language. Luke's dub was excellent in regards to his Latin, but kinda terrible about everything else (which is fine since he's a latin speaker, not an actor).
@@MKnew099 i mean i actually just learned so much listening to luke provide the voiceover! Its so weird hearing actuall conversational Latin in a modern context. Amazing a langauge no one speaks anymore can actually sound, "Modern"
He was just reading, not acting
@@MKnew099 I've always found the acting in anime to be pretty bad. To me, his interpretation was actually an improvement...
@@Xerxes2005 I think you need to put some more hours into studying Japanese Drama to understand why their acting is like that.
As someone who grew up in Venezuela... and then later in Spain, I can say the "Spanishes" are very different to the ear! Sometimes the Spanish from Spain is almost unintelligible to Larin Americans. And sometimes induces lsughter-- the "thetheo", or lisping of the Z's and C's and "vosotros teneis" etc sounds very haughty you might say. Also the rhythm and intonation is very different, hard to explain. I for one love both, but each has its purpose-- you would not want to watch a movie about Pancho Villa or Tony Montana speaking Castillian Spanish... and you wouldn't want to watch Don Quijote speaking Mexican dialect either.
No te flipes compa, soy de Canarias, aquí hablamos con un acento calcado al de ustedes y tanto yo como tú entendemos el español peninsular perfectamente
💀💀 we dont have "ceceo", yall have seseo. The only people with ceceo are certain speakers of Andalusian dialect, althought it's a different but close sound to standard castillian spanish /θ/. Att. un galego pero dos q veñen de Galicia nn os outros
@@-Leonelli- Creo que el problema más grande es que nadie en America quiere que sus niños empiecen a decir "coger" todo el rato xq lo aprendieron de los dibujitos jajajaja
Otro venezolano viendo polýMATHY, chévere.
Amigos, soy Americano (o como dicen en Latinoamerica, NORTE Americano), o "gringo". Solo tenia la suerte de vivir "overseas" gracias al trabajo de mis padres. Si, se que no todos los Espanoles cecean, pero los Madrilenos donde vivi yo, lo hacian! De todos modos me facina las similaridades entre el Castellano y el Latin.
Finally, a reverse isekai anime that has spoken Latin! What else would I ever want during my trip through this world! 😂
I don't think the anime is a reverse isekai. More like time-travel
There's an anime for everyone and an anime about everything.
It's time travel. Not Isekai.
As a Brazilian, I can definitely say that if I were to watch a show or movie in European Portuguese, where they're likely to speak quickly, I'd definitely need subtitles.
As a Spanish speaker, I‘d guess that the detachment between LatAm/Euro dubs is just a question of licensing companies. In terms of niche businesses like this, Spain and Portugal are not super interconnected with Latin America. I’d figure that when a company from Colombia, Mexico, etc. buys the rights to a show, they would have no idea that a Spanish company had already done the same.
From the position of a Japanese company selling these licenses, the more the merrier. By contrast, British companies don’t seem terribly interested in anime dubbing. English dubbing has homogenized a bit over the years from several companies, but even back in the 80s, the only non-American company I can think of involved in dubbing was Ocean from Calgary, Canada. Nowadays Funimation from Texas is the only player in the English anime dubbing game. Thanks for the video, Luke!
I would say yes and no. The divide between the Spanish dubbing and the latin-american (central- and north-american dubbing) goes deeper and way beyond the "licensing" agreements. I would say there are media blocks, of which there are centers where most of the dubbing and the cinema and television industry is at. From my experience and my knowledge there are three "main ones", but it is really a diaspora that spreads through literally half of the world.
The first block would be obviously Spain. Most modern Spanish grammar and spelling conventions all around the world is based on the dialect near Toledo/Madrid (all the way back since aprox. the 1200s). The Spanish block from Spain (with obvious exceptions from Andalusia and the Canary Islands), go a step further and base the entire Pronunciation on this variant/dialect as well, clearly having a distinction between the sounds (represented with English spelling) "th" and "s". This characteristic is the most obvious and the one that one notices the first. Most of the productions, international or local, are always routed through either Madrid and/or Barcelona.
The second block is what a lot of people would call "the latino dubbing area", or what I call it, the north- and central-American block. They are basically what most people would know as the "standard" Latin-american dialect continuum of most media, either seen in the United States or in other countries internationally. I also lump Caribbean dialect in there because they share a lot of similarities, even though it could technically be its own thing. The main centers for this kind of Spanish would be México and Colombia. But as I said, it is always pretty much a spectrum of dialects and industries the spreads through an entire continent, so it would be hard to make it justice.
Then the third block is the South-american Block. It is mostly Chile and Argentina. There are some specific variations and stepping stones between them and around them, but I would say that they are both the strongest contenders. The cinema industry is especially strong in Buenos Aires. (I remember watching the Argentinian Dubb for Pinocchio and it was hillarious for me, a European/American person.) Great stuff.
As a Thai. I was quite surprised to hear you mentioned the R sound in Thai 30:00 (unless I heard it wrongly). Since this is the first time I watched your channel I expected that you mostly covered European languages but this just showed me how you are knowledgeable in languages and linguistic.
Thanks to the RUclips's algorithm I stumbled on your channel. I've learned something new today watching your video.
the reason the spanish dubs are different in europe to the americas is because american spanish is quite different lexically to european spanish to a much greater degree than english
i don't speak spanish, but is it maybe possible that it's not necessarily further from european spanish than American english is from british, but that it's just that people are less in touch with those dialects, because american and british vocabulary can be quite different at times? i would expect even relatively large differences to be basically negated if there is enough cross-pollination between the two dialects.
It isn't that further lexically, is just the choices of the European dub estudios are weird. I am Latin American and i can see a series or a movie in European Spanish and i will be able to understand all the words in the movie but their accent just bothers me and the choices they do when dubbing are sometimes horrendus. In Latin American the Dub Estudios have created someting called neutral accent, wich is a accent that doesn't sound like any Latin American country or European spanish and in 9 out of 10 i will chose the Latin American spanish dub to see anything, but sometimes the European Spanish dub estudios make so a good job that i prefer their dub but i think i could count with my fingers the things i prefer to hear with their dub.
@@lucario2188 that's , juat a poor choice tho, one of the things i love about languages like English is that it's movie directors and writers use these dialects to add more character to the characters and personality and identity. Erasing that is a bad idea honestly.
@@eltrew I mean Latin America neutral accent still use regionalism, but mainly in comedy shows. Like when a english jokes can't be translated they will probably replaced with a regional joke. Insults sometimes will replaced with regional insults but the pronunciation of all words remains in Latin America neutral accent unless in a movie there is someone that is supposed to have a accent. I can tell you that not other country in Latin America apart from Chile would see a show if it had the chilean accent. I like The Legend of Zelda but if it was dubed with the chilean accent i wouldn't buy the game or i would play it in english. The example goes for all the countries in Latin America apart from Brazil, but from what i knoew brazilian still dislike the European Portuguese dub.
@@eltrew People here hate when let's say a famous youtuber does a dub because their accent is very noticiable, like they have difficulty doing the neutral accent, so people would hate a lot, just the way they pronunce the words bother us.
10:27. Brazilian here.
When given the two options, i think most of us prefer to go with the Brazilian Portuguese one.
This probably comes from the differences in vocabulary.
Words like "Ecrã", "Gajo", "Rapariga", "Gozar" or "Cacete" sound quite unusual, or can have other meanings (Sometimes even offensive ones).
I always enjoy anything ancient Rome related + I also enjoy anime, so the show was a entertaining watch. I recommend it. Also learned more about Japanese onsen culture.
As a French speaker, learning where to put the stresses both in Latin and English and do it naturally is very hard, probably the hardest part of learning the language. I would say it's probably the last thing they will teach you.
As a native speaker of Brazilian Portuguese I think it is good to have different dubbed versions for European and Brazilian Portuguese. Because although they’re fundamentally the same language we have really distinct speaking habits. For example, if I wanted to say that I’m talking on my phone I’d say: “estou falando no celular” whereas a Portuguese would say something like: “estou a falar ao telemóvel”. These both sentences mean the very same thing, but they are built in a different way that could confuse some people (and that’s just a single example, there are many others). I feel that the differences between PT-PT and PT-BR are bigger than the ones between ENG-UK and ENG-US. Because although British and Americans have different pronunciations and words, the way they build the sentences is much more alike than the way Brazilians and Portuguese do.
Edit: typo
This makes sense to me. B-PT grammar is shockingly very similar to English in expression, especially when comparing to the same concepts in Spanish; it almost feels like if an English speaker had to reconstruct Portuguese from the dead with an English structure. When it comes to Euro-PT, it seems very classic in structure, and much more Romance in grammar, much more unnatural for myself as a native English speaker to think.
Even if we only talk about accent: Brazilian Portuguese sounds more like Spanish but European Portuguese is like russian... Very, very different.
One thing to consider concerning voice acting with japan is it's a far bigger branch comparably. Whole dedicated schools and many "Seiyū" have enough of a brand, that they get advertised with directly instead "as heard in/ known as".
The schools could have very much contacted a university for guidance. With anime also there is a real pipeline from "indy to major league". Enthusiasts can get their hobby into the spotlight (if nothing else, just package it with high school, girls or high school girls).
Yet they still struggle so much with English lol. Though it is understandable.
@@_Lumiere_ yeah and then there's some like fgo Medusa and a seiyuu with animeman interview turns out the latter is ok cuz the interviewee dream is English teacher, but mostly yeah.
@@_Lumiere_ That's really more down to the state of English education in Japan than anything else.
When you talked about the Latin American vs Peninsular Spanish dub, it reminded me of the Balkans.
Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro & Croatia all speak the same language, what one would call a multipolar language, whose standard dialect in each country is over 90% mutually intelligible, has at least 85% identical vocabulary and completely identical grammar to any of the other dialects. For simplicity I will call this language by the name it was standardized under, Serbocroatian.
I, a fairly average Serb from Bosnia who speaks the Bosnian dialect of Serbocroatian, being perfectly able to understand the standard Croatian, Montenegrin, and Serbian dialects including most of their slang.
Now despite those facts, at the very least Serbia, Bosnia, & Croatia dub cinematic works separately. Montenegro often just uses Serbian dubs due to the even greater similarity in the dialects. But still, one could save a lot of money if they only dubbed them once.
I get it’s a matter of national pride, but it’s stupid.
I would argue that the Montenegrin dialect is actually the best as it is ijekavian, meaning it falls in the same accent continuum as the Bosnian and Croatian standard dialects, but does not contain the few pieces of regional vocabulary that the Bosnian & Croatian dialects have, making it a decent middle ground that lacks the unusual Serbian accent and the few unusual Croatian & Bosnian words
Nice to see this in different languages. The quality of Latin pronunciation in the original version astounds me, actually, since my profs and senpais here in Japan typically do not pay attention to either long vowels or nasalization, or just pronunciation in general - granted, we are jurists and not classicists, but still.
Fun fact: in many dialects of Veneto, especially in Mestre, the standard R is basically a Japanese alveolar tap.
Meanwhile in the dialects of Emilia Romagna, spilling over into Veneto and Lombardy, the S is retracted.
HAAHAHAH the brazilian portuguese one is EXACTLY like how a brazilian would read that text!
also, the german one really sounds like it's being read by your german character who went back in time
I love the laughter and empathy for the voice actors.
You could have mentioned that the Portuguese was the only one to consistently turn the final s into nasalization of the vowel.
Even though we definitely can understand each other, we (PT-EU and PT-BR) might have a hard time, since both varieties have different vocabulary and pronunciation, not just a matter of accent I.m.o.
Therefore, I find it very interesting to have multiple dubs in the same language, so we can avoid some kind of "linguistic imperialism". That's happening a lot in the UK and Portugal nowadays, where kids are being constantly influenced by foreign "dialects".
Anyways, I only watch anime in japanese
as a native Mexican Spanish speaker, I find PT-BR a lot easier to understand than the European one. Maybe because we are more exposed to Brazilian media and people than Portuguese.
As a Spaniard I do find many Latin America accents hard to follow or simply odd. It's not only the pronunciation, but more importantly the lexicon has drifted too much.
I am pretty sure the hardest is the Chilean.
For me is only the pronunciation. I can understand you guys but i don't like to hear your pronunciation in the majority of my enteirtaiment. There are some video games and movies that i prefer to enjoy with the European Spanish dub, but i think i could count it with my hand.
Spanish Varieties are defo much more different than most English varieties are
whoa, now that's interesting, I'm brazilian, and I've been learning spanish for the last year or so.
and I find latin spanish so much easier to follow than european
American Spanish originates from Southern Spain, while Standard (European) Spanish is from Northern Spain.
The alveolar tap "r" /ɾ/ is still preserved in Canadian French. It is in the process of being displaced by a Parisian-style uvular /ʁ/, so the alveolar "r" is now associated with elderly people and rural accents. Many will freely switch between the two depending on mood or register (myself included, though I am not a native speaker).
As a Spaniard with some knowledge of the dubbing and subtitling industry, the divide of the industry is mainly due to three factors, first, tradition, second, economy, and third, culture and all are related.
The tradition goes back to a time when films started to get dubbed and translated which happened early 30s, (In Spain the first fully dubbed film shown in theater happened in 1931) and in the 40s in Latin America. In Spain dubbing started as a project by local companies, while in Latin America, it was mainly the Hollywood studios who paid and produced the dubs (mainly in Argentina and in Mexico). This studios also tried to create a kind of universal dubbing which could be valid for every Latin American country (the so called neutral Spanish). This created two largely independent dubbing cultures, that at the beginning weren't even aware of each other.
The economical reasons are deeply routed also in this divide, most American dubbing studios started as franchises of for the big Hollywood producers, while in Spain they started as independent contractors for the distributers, which of course meant it was profitable for those distributors to have two (or 3, since then the Coño Sur dubbing also started to develop a distinct dubbing from Mexico-Colombia-Ecuador zone of dubbing) different version to distribute. And the dubbing studios also became consolidated into very stable business located mainly in important cities.
This was even more exacerbated in Spain during the 80s with the opening of new TV station, which, because they were young, needed to import a lot of their programming and with the rise of TV in the regional languages (Galician, Catalán and Euskera), which of course made the dubbing business highly profitable and almost a necessity (and also helped consolidate Barcelona as a big center of dubbing alongside Madrid, With smaller center being Santiago, Sevilla and Bilbao, (places where there was a strong regional TV, which dubbed to their language/dialect). Similar processes happened in Latin America, with if course their respective differences, that I cannot talk about as much in detail, because I lack the knowledge necessary
These if course made most European Spanish to almost never hear a Latin American dub, so we are less used to it in foreign films or anime and the same can be said for Latin American Spanish speakers, who are also not used at all to hear Castilian Spanish dubs. So it just sounds off. It is not that is not understandable, it just sounds weird and out of place.
The rise of the internet created a way for us to access them easily though, so, maybe for the newer generations, they would sound less off, but for the a little bit older ones, well that only created weird flame wars about what type of dub is better (all are really pretty good in my opinion, which the only exception if the Galician Sin-Chan dub, which is just unbelievably perfect and should be enshrined in an altar and placed in the Dt Jacob Cathedral alongside the apostle)
Loved this review. I enjoyed the so many perspectives you mentioned. I did laugh a lot too, in a Very Good Way. I'm a Spanish Speaker by birth. I understand a lot of Italian and Portuguese. I've even memorized songs in those languages and constantly watch shows, also in French. Today that I got my closed to your Latin channel, I got so excited to understand a lot, like 80%. Thank You, So Much!!!
Even though Charlemagne lived in Aachen for most of his life, most of his kingdom was actually in modern day France and the pronunciation of Ecclesiastical Latin reflected the pronunciation Late Vulgar Latin/Early Romance spoken in Northern France at the time.
Uh oh, you said the V word. He’s going to chew you out for that.
@@ferretyluv he doesnt like the term vulgar latin? what does he prefer to use when referencing these concepts?
Your rendition was awesome. Deep and confident.
Thanks
During the Spanish segment, you mentioned how you thought from a consumer standpoint that it was a bit odd that they would go out of their way to dub in regional variants of the same language, like Spanish and Portuguese. There is an explanation for this.
If the practice of dubbing was always attached to a system that you see here in the Netflix release, where you can simply select language options, then you may be right. There would not be much point to do this outside of maybe just comfortability, and often times that isn't enough of a reason for a company to shell out the money to do something like redubbing. However, until maybe 7-10ish years ago this wasn't really an option. Even that long ago Netflix (and streaming services in general) didn't have the same pull or market in anime, so the old systems of anime were still in place.
The real reason all these different dubs exist actually stems from regional licensing. Before the wide adoption of anime by streaming services, you got your anime fix through DVD (dub or sub) and occasionally TV release (generally just dub). These were typically regionally soft locked due to the fact that someone in that region would get the license for a show in that region specifically, subtitle and/or dub it in the regional language, and then either produce a DVD release or TV broadcast. Unless you were specifically looking for a DVD box set of a show in a language that wasn't native to your region on, say, eBay or something even sketchier at the time, you weren't going to have may other language options outside of those native to the area where you lived.
So, to reiterate: if you lived in Brazil, someone probably bought the license to translate and sell copies of a series within Brazil specifically, and most likely an entirely different person would have the rights to that same series in Portugal, thus producing two different dubs and possibly even two different sets of subtitle work. Then Netflix, years later in present day, buys the license to that same series for a specific region (this is the reason why some shows and movies are region locked on Netflix away your region and you can get around it with a VPN), then they turn around and buy those various regional dubs (French, Portuguese, German, Spanish, Italian, etc.) for cheap, throw them in as selectable options in their service, and bam, they can rotate buying temporary licenses for the same show in various regions while always having the most relevant language the region as an option to watch in, no matter which region it is.
I'm really bad at explaining stuff concisely, but I hope this made sense to somebody. I just find this kind of stuff really interesting.
In the brazillian dub, the guy wasn't reading the sentence in latin, he was reading the words as you'd speak them if it were in brazillian portuguese. The fact that he only mispronounced the first word was a coincidence.
Yeah.
The schedule for these dubs is brutal.
And Netflix is doing a very poor job with anime dubs here.
It seems the actors have no time to prepare.
Latin Spanish means usually a more neutral Mexican or Peruvian accent (for dubbing) plus different kinds of words and slangs. The Spanish from Spain is pronounced way too different, plus there are too many Spanish words that are very common in Spain yet nobody uses them in Latin America. You must watch the video "que dificil es hablar el español" it's twi guys sining showing how word usage changes a lot from country to country.
You should check out Californio and Caló, foo. One is basically the King's Spanish, one is basically half English and half curse words, and they're both only spoken in Alta California.
me dieron cuenta que el acento colombiano es también frecuentemente considerado por tener sonido muy neutral
@@KenPowers-i1z No realmente, quizás habrá algún lugar en donde tengan acento más neutro pero en general es re cantadito
@@KenPowers-i1z me encanta el acento colombiano, pero es algo difícil considerarlo neutro. Tal vez el caleño, pero definitivamente no el de Medellín!
@@irodjetson Me dicen que el acento de Bogotá suele ser considerado como estándar internacional para pronunciación latinoamericana
It’s nice to hear Latin spoken instead of just written. 🏛❤️
French voice: unfortunately, Latin is taught exactly this way in school with no effort on vowel length or stress accent. It's just hilarious and horrible.
In France, Latin is spelled with j's and v's, but the pronunciation of these letters is correctly taught. That means the dubbing actor never had Latin at school because he should know it.
True, I was told the « j » should be read like a « i » (so Julius >Iulius) and v like « u » (ou).
@@BB-un2ts C'est pas le cas ? 😅
@@hikaru78- ? Dans le commentaire au dessus, la personne disait bien que la prononciation des lettres j et v eétait correctement apprises en France, ce à quoi je disais que c'était vrai. C'est vrai aussi qu'on n'insiste pas sur les accents de stress et la longueur des voyelles.
@@BB-un2ts Ah oui, en relisant j'ai compris. Je suis vraiment une quiche en anglais parfois ^^'
The comparison between the anime and your own series made me absolutely love this video!!! OMG, it's so cute and silly and funny at the same time! And your analysis is great, as well as some of the comments down here that clarify the reasons for some pronounciation features in the voice acting.
Edit: Speaking about the Spanish dubbing/voice acting, they sound way too different from each other and a lot of people from either side of the Atlantic Ocean can't quite bear the dubbing from the other side. There are even some silly fights on the internet about what dubbing is the best and such. There's also a lot of vocabulary/slang and even different grammatical structures that wouldn't be understood on the other side. Actually, it was quite the work to develop an artificial "neutral" variety to be understood and enjoyed in the whole of LatAm alone being such a vast region full of hundreds of varieties with their own slang, grammatical nuances, phonetics, etc.
Thanks
I will eventually have to study for my general linguistics exam and listening to you talk about this kind of topic in such an entertaining way motivates me a bit LOL
As a brazilian, I can say that only having 1 'portuguese' dubbing option has always been a problem. PT-BR and PT-PT are different languages/dialects. And then you can have a more or less intelligible PT-Portugal dialect on top of that, which adds up to the difficulties. The most attrocious moments are when a brazilian character is depicted speaking portuguese portugese... I think your video on the enormous plurality of italian dialects/languages pretty much sums it up and applies to many languages.
they are not different languages, they are just different dialects, much like American English, British English, Australian English, etc. An American speaking with a British accent is just as outrageous
It reminds me how Spanish dub from Spain and Latam is really different. With the latter have something called a neuter accent, in orden to not define any of the dialects. It's really cool
@@chicoti3 That is indeed the mainstream/hegemonic perception, it seems. However I've heard from some experts (tough I understand not most of them agree) that the artificial construct that is the Language (conceptually speaking) is not capable of defining the actual, real life differences between peoples and cultures and the way they communicate. For instance when you say the portuguese spoken in Brazil and Portugal are the same language, not only that ignores the fact that, for several official matters they're not, but also raises other questions. If "brazilian" and "portuguese" are just dialects of the same languages, what does that make the several dozen dialects of brazilian portuguese? Sub dialects? Dialects of a dialect? Also, what makes BR and PT Portuguese the same language but not Spanish? A difference in grammar, vocabulary, etc? And what makes those same differences between two dialects not constitute different languages? What's the threshold? It seems hard to out a number on it. Is it 3000 words? 1000? From Luke's video on Italian dialects, being basically completely different languages at some points, the criteria to define what is and what's not a language can sometimes feel arbitrary
English is sort of like that, too..We North Americans have different dialects from the ones in Britain and people who aren't used to it, it can be difficult to understand. Especially Scotland. There's rural dialects in Scotland, like in Shetland, where they are practically speaking a different language.
Tou aprendendo Português de Brasil e acho que é mais facil para entender. Mas vocês falam tão rápido! Kkkk
@@wfcoaker1398 it really depends on the accent, some people from Minas, or Bahia would speaking very very slowly
while others from Rio grande do sul, or Rio de janeiro would indeed speak faster
mas a maioria dos trabalhos dublados no Brasil vem do Rio de janeiro, então esse sotaque acabe sendo mais exportado
In defense of the Portuguese version, he used the traditional Portuguese pronunciation, which is basically pronouncing it as Portuguese, and the diphthongs as a simple vowel (ae= e). My teacher of latin taught me like that and it took me years to learn the historical pronunciation.
Pomanam is inexcusable tho. I guess someone has really bad handwriting, a failing printer, or bad glasses. I can't think of any other way to read a P where it was supposed to be an R... 😆
That's not a defence, that is the criticism itself
Ah the famous "it's not 'AEgys AEgypt', its Édes". Its how i learned about this at school lol
This was a lot of fun hahaha that Italian pronunciation is pretty bad 😂
Ahah grazie, caro!
If you like Roman and Japanese culture and comedy in general, I cannot recommend this comedy enough. Absurd, Insightful, Creative with great timing and delivery of jokes. You'll crack right up.
22:53 That's it my comrades, we broke him so much he changed his language settings!
Hahaha
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
God I cannot state how much I loved this show like it’s so ridiculous but so entertaining and it was just fascinating learning about bathhouses
Actually, there is a big pronunciation difference between a Brazilian and Portuguese’s Portuguese! Its sometimes difficult for a Brazilian to even understand the speech, hence the need for different dubs.
yea i was saying that as i was watching this video, the brazilian portuguese sounds WAAY different from portuguese. Ask anyone from africa, you know even their dialects are not as debilitating as brazillian
17:21 There’s also a good deal of ”overrrcompensation” or ”hyperrrcorrrrrection”, when it comes to trrrrrilling those ”R”:s, as, in Japanese, they’re mostly taps (or something akin to it), although the Latin ”R” was also mostly a tap/flap, intervocalically.
i was laughing just as much as you did Luke thanks for the great analysis :)
Discovered your content today, I didn't expect there was people speaking so well Latin on youtube
If you're interested in a similar concept, the anime and manga _Drifters_ features the Roman character of Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus. The concept of the series is that warriors across time from Earth get transported to a high fantasy world just before they die.
In once scene, Scipio loses his magical translating charm (which is how Romans, samurai, cowboys, and elves can communicate), and traipses through the jungle. The scene in the anime has quite a bit of spoken Latin, so you might find it interesting.
As a spaniard, watching Netflix in "español latino" as we call it is just unthinkable. We are not as familiar with latinamerican spanish as english speakers are with american. We comprehend most of it, but when it comes to common expressions, slang, sayings, word connotations, etc. we're lost. There may also be a little bit of racism/chauvinism in this popular opinion. The only exceptions would be when watching a Latin American Production, say Mexican, so theres no Spanish spanish dubbing. I guess they feel the same across the pond
That said, I (and a growing number of people) prefer to watch the original audio, in English, japanese...
Isn't it annoying that the choice is between "Spanish" and "European Spanish"? I mean it annoys me and I'm not even Spanish
@@reezlaw It's not, as someone from Mexico I prefer the Spanish over the European one. Dub studio from Latam had a consensus on dubbing rules as; don't use local words, jargons or idioms as well as pronunce each word as clear as possible and the use of 'tu' instead of 'vos'.
There's a history for this. Around the 60's there was a Mexican law that banned any foreign language to air on TV without a dub, mainly because of high iliteracy, thus the high demand for a dub around the 70's (mostly from all the series, movies and cartoons made in USA) make that recording studios from others Latam countries join in dub as per Mexican TV stations request so they came with this standard, then they resell this dub version to their local TV stations and that's how it become standard Spanish for this region and most people are used to it.
@@Vrio_Side I suspect you didn't understand my comment
@@reezlaw The thing is that they are way more spanish speakers outside spain, so making the Distinction this way makes more sense
@@drakolex7302 Ridiculous, Spanish originated in Spain, they could at least be treated equally - Latinoamerican Spanish and European Spanish
Your amused reactions are good on this one :)
I loved this series.
11:10 I was already predicting that result xD Unfortunately, when it comes to dubs, at least here in Brazil, the voice actors generally don't know what they'll dub until they go to the studio, so it's like a big surprise, thus they don't have the opportunity to prepare themselves :/
I'm watching this show now because I'm interested in latin and I'm interested in latin because of you. Thanks for your work.
Thanks! I’m glad to hear that. Enjoy!
As a Portuguese speaker, I'm glad there's both Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese options. Although it's the same language, it's sounds REEAAALLY different in Brazil. Also, a lot of slang words and expressions are different, so a Brazilian could not quite understand what a Portuguese voice actor is trying to say
Please continue the legionary interviews, they are awesome!
Never learned Latin, but the impression given by a German Latin pronounciation at 42:22 is so spot on.
Funny how in videos about spoken Latin in anime, one learns about the nuances of his own language.
it seems we both had a fun, you making this video, me watching it :-) grātiās tibi agō.
Et tibi
Now do The Last Kingdom (Netflix). In the current season, a couple of times a Catholic priest says the Pater Noster, pronouncing "caelis" in a sort of "classical" way, not with the hard CH sound. Thoughts? It takes place around the year 900 in Britain.
I was waiting for this!!!! Thank u!!!!
A "Oh dio, oh che vergogna" ho sputato un polmone 🤣🤣
Hahaha
I love the whole people from past coming to the future concept of the series
The French "habēMUS" cracked me up. Well, all of the French made me laugh, but probably largely because it's the only modern European language I know at all well aside from English, and I know several native French speakers very well so I could really hear how French it all sounded.
The English sounded like someone from my high school Latin classes might sound a few years after graduating and half forgetting his pronunciation and not being sure exactly what he was saying.
The Portuguese "accipere" really made me cringe. (All of it did, but that's the word where I literally had a physical reaction.)
The Spanish and Japanese voices were really good, all things considered.
22:55 "so the pronunciation we hear here" *gets stunned*
L'ho visto su Netflix quache settimana fa,veramente simpatico
In the Netflix channel (or the Netflix Anime channel), there's an interview with the Japanese actor where he mentioned that all the Latin was transcribed in katakana!
Funny, also, how the English voice actor used a bigger Italianism, with ”Dēbentt-eeeh”, than I’ve ever heard any Italian using. Did he think he was voice acting Mario? 😅
25:36 As a Finn, I totally get the necessity of phonemic vowel length (PVL), for grammar: Without it, the Finnish Illative case (”-𐌏n”*/
”-Vn”; into something) would be confused with the Genitive case (”-n; of something), almost every time. 😅
* Here, I’ve used the ”𐌏” (the ”Neutral Vowel”/”Æ”, in ”Krásnịca”, a script I’ve developed), for a generic vowel; in this case, for the lengthening of the word-final vowel. So, it’s *_NOT_* an ”O”.
I'm a native Spanish speaker from Latin America, and there are differences to European Spanish. Some differences would be different words used only in European Spanish and the accent in word pronunciation. I finished watching money heist, which is a series that uses European Spanish. I found myself having to use English subtitles to understand certain phrases and words that are not used in Latin America.
35:31 I can see why that happened. In brazilian portuguese (idk if it happens in european portuguese) we tend to put an /i/ after consonants when it end a word, like in how we say "Facebooki", and in portuguese the stressed syllable at the second last syllable is a standard
As a Rioplatense Spanish speaker, I find both the Castillian and the Latin American (Mexican) dub odd-sounding. So I get the worst of both worlds lmao
Sometimes Latin American dubs aren't even spoken by Mexicans but Columbians. It depends on the studio really. On another note. I've never heard a Rioplatanese accent before. The most far down south I have gone in terms of accents is Chile
@@sebastianprimomija8375 Actually, the three powers of dubbing in LatAm are Venezuela, Mexico and Chile. I haven't heard of any show dubbed in Colombia (although it'd be lovely).
@@sebastianprimomija8375 Chile in terms of pronunciation is a Latin America inside Latin America. Wealthy urbanite chileans from the capital sound like clear neutral spanish with extra steps, while rural chileans (huasos) sometimes sounded liked arabic or something inintelligible like that to me lol. That was my experience as a Chilean who had to move from Santiago to the countryside during the pandemic.
I think this is pretty true for everyone. The "neutral" Spanish in Latin American dubs is not that common anywhere. It's closer to Mexican Spanish, but you can tell the difference between a dub and a show in actual Mexican Spanish.
Great video. Regarding the issue of two different dubs for the same language, I can't say for Spanish speakers, but the pronunciation difference between European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese are way bigger than European English and American English. Due to the fact that the people in Portugal shrink the sound of the vowels, matter that is completly absent in Brazil. So if you forget about the vocabulary or grammar and focus only in the pronunciation, the Brazilian Portuguese is more similar to Spanish, and the European Portuguese is more similar to the so called "Stress-timed languages" like Russian. Therefore some words spoken by portuguese people are unintelligible for many brazilians, even knowing that the word spoken is in your known vocabulary. When I try to watch a comedy show, for exemple, with European Portuguese dub, of course I understand 98% of the lines but sometimes you have to stop and think in the word that is been said, making the show less enjoyable as if It were in Brazilian Portuguese.
The way the Italian dubber said "intellégitisné" and your exaggerated Italian schwas were so hilarious!
27:00 It’s almost like they noticed it needed something, but then, ran out of time to do it properly 😅.
I agree. 😂😂😂
Interesting. We can always have more of this concept
As a native Spanish speaker I can definitely say Latin-American “dialects” differ much from each other, as well as European Spanish, which we usually call Castilian. They not only vary in accentuation but Latin Spanish and Castilian specially differ in the meaning of some terms and idioms. This is why most works, when translated, commonly have a Latin-American (often Mexican) and a Castilian dub.
While most Spanish speakers have no trouble understanding each other regardless of nationality, the spoken differences are much more noticeable than they are between English dialects, even among adjacent Latin-American countries. I suppose this is due to each region retaining some linguistic roots of their indigenous tongues once classical Spanish became the official language.
00:22
For an architect, Lucius Modestus is insanely well-built and chiseled. He looks like he is a legionary or an athlete.
You have to react to the movie "Imperator" by Konrad Łęcki. It's a 40 minute movie made by some studens with what seems to be really good spoken Latin!
With a very conspicuous traditional polish pronunciation haha
@@Glossologia that's for sure hah, still sounds quite good, at least to my ears
i always love a good anime with a weird premise that ends up working beautifully
NGL, Classical Latin with the French ultimate stress sounded hilarious to me.
Me too. 😂😂😂
Finally, my suggestion came true and thanks Luke for the analysis of that anime series and hopefully you should also analyse the live action film version as well and the Japanese actor who'd played as a Roman protagonist who'd later travelled to modern day Japan also spoke Latin as well as he was interviewed for the promotion of his movie.
And I'll make another suggestion, Luke for a future episode. Maybe if you could analyse the Latin terms on laws or judiciary branch since most of it were Latin origin and also there are some Latin terms that been use on scientific and medical terms that you should analyse it as your next episode. So I hope that you could do that soon and continue your vlogs about Latin language. 😉
Thank you so much for yet another entertaining and educational video! I dont know if you've been asked this before but would you consider doing a take on the Latin for The Passion of the Christ? I know it is potentially contentious (specially on the graphic violence) but it is something that ive been dying to get a prospect and analysis from a fluent speaker and historian. Much appreciated!
I did so last year! ruclips.net/video/yv2U1SwfhFE/видео.html thanks for watching
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you very much! I confess that I was looking forward to a bit of a take on the roman soldiers that tormented jesus, but ive read takes that their pronounciation/lines were next to gibberish to understand! Nonetheless, salut!
何を言ってるのか理解できませんでしたが、テルマエ・ロマエを取り上げてくれてありがとう
Anime in Latin, good Latin. That's just what I need. Please Luke save us ♥♥♥
All hail the great algorithm that has lead me to this wonderful video
It’s the second time watching this video, it’s still super funny. Especially the italian one, he has the stereotypical italian voice actor voice which gives e nostalgia
I'm feeling so smart, in the "Hīc amīcum meum ferre possum?" I KNEW SOMETHING WAS WRONG!
I agree. The Latin had some grammatical errors and was less idiomatic in the Italian dub, especially where he says "Sīc Rōmānōrum prīncipātō vostra prōvincia adjuncta etiam vestrōs mōrēs in potestāte cognōscere sumus".
There was a weird thing I felt during this show. I only have SCRAPS of an understanding of Latin beyond it's use in English roots, but I feel like I can hear the Japanese affect on almost all of the words. So I know it sounds slightly wrong without knowing how it would sound if it was right.
It's interesting to hear from someone more informed how they did with it.
I’ve only seen the original Thermae Romae. In the original, Lucius is blonde haired and blue eyed. It was also intentionally limited in animation. So it looked like it was flash animated, making it funnier.
In the original episode 7, he says “Fer mihi auxilium” for “help me!” Which I thought seemed silly.
"che scemi!" 🤣 🤣 🤣 AHAHAHAHAHAH bellissimo video, Luke , mi hai fatto sbellica' 🧡
Hi PolýMATHY, British fan here. I think with dubs in regards into different dialects of English is that they are usually only used for preschool programmes as far as I know, for example Bob the Builder is a British children's show, but it was dubbed into American English for American children. Please keep up the good work.
Good insight
Hello @polýMATHY, thank you for your video.
I'm one of the italian translators who worked at Thermae Romae Novae.
In the series there are a lot of latin sequences; with the support of someone who knows latin, we changed the original text for two reasons.
Reason 1: lip-sync doesn't matched with the voice lines, so we were forced to add addictional text.
Reason 2: latin grammar was wrong.
You said "Italians made something that is far less comprehensible and much less latin."
May I ask you why? We think our sentences are more grammatically correct, compared to the original japanese version.
(p.s - The ecclesiastical pronunciation was chosen only because of its sound, and obviously it is not a representation of the sound of latin in ancient times)
Best regards, Alessandro Spadotto.
Ciao Alessandro, forse sarà meglio se ci sentiamo tramite email. Scrivimi a “ luke polymath @ gmail . com “ (ma senza gli spazzi ovviamente)
EDIT: Aggiungo qui qualche commento qui per il beneficio di coloro che vogliano sapere.
1) The lip-sync is a strange motivation, since in anime there is very little attempt to synchronize lip movements *even in the original Japanese* ; moreover, the lips were animated for the original Latin text, thus this point does not make much sense.
2) The Latin text in the Italian version has more errors than the original Japanese.
As I explained in the video, "Hīc amīcum meum ferre possum?" is wrong because the adverb "hūc" is necessary. Errors of this type don't happen until Late Latin, and they don't even occur in the 5cAD Vulgate Bible. They do however happen in Koine Greek. But not in Latin of the 2cAD. The use of "afferre" is fine, but unnecessary; I assume the translator wanted to avoid the sound of "duce," as others have suggested to me in the comments, but I think this is silly if that was his intent.
"Verba mea dīligenter omnēs audīte" is fine.
"Pulcherrimae thermae plānā faciē gentī sunt." The dative of possession doesn't make sense here. "The beautiful baths are of the flat-faced people." This doesn't carry meaning within the context of the scene. While it is "Latin," I can only image a Latin speaker saying something so odd if he were having a stroke.
It could also be the translator meant "the baths are beautiful to the flat-faced people." But again, this is nearly meaningless in context.
"Sīc Rōmānōrum prīncipātō vostrā prōvinciā adjūnctā
etiam vestrōs mōrēs in potestāte cognōscere sumus."
This is a mix of idioms and usages applied by someone who clearly doesn't speak Latin; e.g. "in potestāte esse" is used rarely, and inserting “cognōscere” there is also very strange. “Prīncipātō” (dative case) is not a word, since the nominative would have to be “prīncipātum,” which does not exist. The most similar word is “prīncipātus” which refers to the rulership of an emperor, a “prīnceps.” But I have not found this term used for the geographical territory of an empire, nor for the state of the Roman Empire. Because it is a fourth declension noun, it has to be “prīncipātuī.” But like I said, this isn’t how the word is used in Latin. The original Latin from the Japanese version was much better in circumlocuting this.
The fact that the translator mixes “vostrā” with “vestrōs” is probably just carelessness. Others have used such things to express dialect differences, which can be interesting. But in the same sentence? No way. Moreover, Lucius Modestus is from Rome, so using the rural “vostrā” instead of urban “vestrā” is like a Milanese man using Neapolitan grammar unironically.
“Verba mea intellegitisne?”
Not great, since -ne is enclitic and postpositive to the first word in the sentence. “Verbane mea intellegitis?” is correct. Or, “Intellegitisne verba mea?” etc. The only way the Italian’s line works is if it is “Verba mea, intellegetisne?” but the voice actor does not pause. Even with the pause it would be very odd.
I’m baffled trying to figure out what the translator meant here. This is what he wrote:
“Listen carefully to my words, all of you. The beautiful baths are of the flat-faced people. Thus, with your province having been added to the rulership, we are also in power to get to know your customs. My words, do you understand them?”
My translation into English here should sound very odd to native speakers of English, as does the Latin of the Italian version. And it does not communicate what Lucius actually wants from them.
The moral of the story is that translators for this kind of work should probably be fluent speakers of Latin. I’m sure the person who gave you the translation worked hard on it, but his knowledge of the language sounds like the typical college professor in Italy; i.e., a person who *thinks* he knows the language, but never having learned or been trained how to express himself in casual conversation in Latin, cannot produce the language effectively for such situations.
As I said in the video, I didn't have much problem with the Ecclesiastical pronunciation.
@@polyMATHY_Luke Thank you very much for your explanation.
About the lip-sync: I can guarantee original animation DOES NOT respect Kenjiro Tsuda's japanese voice (the seiyuu). His mouth keeps moving while he doesn't speak, and sometimes he speaks but his mouth doesn't move. Japanese always do so, they don't pay attention to lip sync. They record voice actors before animations, and then animators make inaccurate frames in order to generically fill the soundwave... if we had left the original sentences, voice acting would have been desynchronized (like the original).
@@alessandrospadotto2542 I think Lyp sync is not something real Anime fans look for.
@@danielantony1882 I know, and I respect your opinion. But Lip-sync is something "Italian Dubbing" always looks for, and there is nothing to do about it. It is considered one of the most important thing; the director told me my lines were short anyway, and they added a lot of text while recording (not in the latin sentences in particular, because it was impossible to improvise new latin lines).
Luke, what I enjoyed most about this video was hearing people from lots of different countries saying the same Latin phrases. If only it were easy to get this kind of audio resource made by people who actually know and understand Latin.
As a speaker of a language with phonemic vowel length (Navajo), I'd like to take a crack at this 😊
That’s a really cool language! Please do
Hi! This would be the first time hearing a spoken classical Latin, but that was really beautiful. I don't really understand, but I think it was kind of melodic? Like music, I feel like there're ups and downs in both loudness and tone.
Thank you for the content - and for your beautiful voice! Also, I learned from Dogen-san, also a RUclipsr, that Japanese language have speech accent.
Antes de conhecer a esse canal, não tinha a mínima ideia da mera existência da pronúncia clássica. E confesso que hoje a prefiro.
I’m pleased