My personal take on this is that you are a qualified electrician. You have electrical qualifications, you work as an electrician, you are presumably competent in the range of work you do. This, I believe, meets the dictionary definition. Certain industry bodies may not accept your qualifications for certain types of work, but who gives a toss? So long as you know you're doing a good job and your clients are happy, crack on I say. And never forget that someone can have all the qualifications in the world and still be shite.
Completely agree, although I don’t have any electrical qualifications for the 2360 parts 1&2, as the college failed to process the paperwork correctly. I never received the final certificate
@@Pure_electrical_training Adrian please stop beeting your self up you Are qualified you don't need a more than what you already have tell the NICEIC AND NAPIT AND ANY OTHER PART P SCAMMER TO BLOW IT OUT THERE ASS, if you were not qualified then you would not be working as a college instructor they would not give you a job . Keep up the good work mate I have been watching your videos and I can't find any wrong with any thing you demonstrate. And remember it is not a legal requirement to have any formal training or qaulfercations to be an electrician.
@@chrisb4009 in the event of an accident/incident that you were personally responsible for, I'm not sure qualifications, CPS etc would make any difference. You would be responsible regardless.
@@andrewcadby If you’re competent to do the work, have the correct insurances and are otherwise acting as a responsible business owner and there is an incident you’re in trouble. If you don’t hold the relevant qualifications, your insurance is invalidated, you’re working outside your competence etc. You’ve not only caused an incident but you’re in the same boat as a builder doing electrical work or similar. It’s possibly worse as you can’t even claim ignorance.
Industry is a joke, things move on all the time, I know guys who have no qualifications and are more competent than people who have certificates coming out their arses
Higher education is worse its paying more for a lot less, when it was free you got a good education, contact time, facilities, 3k years ago, less than before, less contact time, since 9k.its a joke, talking about S. T. E. M, the other so called higher education stuff be it David Beckham studies, gender studies, teaching, etc it's pure profit, plus they make a mint of digs, books etc, I have left very lucrative jobs in both health care and education, because its blood money, I am back to working on site(s), like 20 years ago. Happy and guilt free,
I have the same certificates as you and have been a commercial sparky for 18 years...personally I think the best qualification you can get is on site experience!! 👍🏻
It's the same in university, charge you 9k, for nothing more than ( in fact less) from when you was paying nothing or 3k recently, its all about money, checkout on amazon or wherever secrets of the magna carta, oyeah part P was introduced ASAP to stop the trades charging the going rate ( supply and demand) remember in the late 80's when the trades eg plasterers, plumbers electricians, etc made a fortune down south east, I remember as a small child people " up north" going London or se, to work for three days and come back flush, so much so, Harry Enfield had a comedy sketch on laods a money, where the guys would floss it, with hand full of cash, then the banksters opened up the gates of trades, starting with Eastern Europe, Poland, etc, then waited for part P to finish of the electrical trade, plumbing, plastering etc, the game is rigged, the niceic and the rest of the scams oops schemes are just money making of your labour and time, they are as good as a serf overlord class,
You are very brave for speaking up! The very same thing happened to me, I am older, did my C&G in 1989-1993. I did part 1,2,3 and testing course and NVQ but went I went to renew my registration one day they said sorry the rules have changed. I was not an occasional electrician, I worked six days a week most weeks for 32 years, being an NIE-EIC QM and Reci contractor. All my work was high end, schools, museums, very luxurious domestic all the way. Like yourself I also meticulously trained around a dozen apprentices. So was not happy to settle for a jib or domestic card. I got to keep my registration in the end but really had to fight for it. I do have to say to I do not blame the colleges, as the courses were very well taught and all the knowledge comes flooding back any time you do any update course. Experience is everything and you will sail through this bull.
Same as you mate, all the same qualifications from 2360 in 1998. I contacted Napit, and they put me on their Blue Flame course, which was really easy, I believe it’s a 2391 equivalent.
I had a similar experience back in 2008. I did a training course over 2 weeks part P course and did the regs exam and then put myself forward for the testing and inspection. Passed all and thought I could be a spark. Only later did I find out I wasn't qualified fully. I then went back to college and did level 2 and level 3, luckily while doing level 3 I was told I had to do an ncq to be fully qualified, this was before the am2 was introduced. A lot of the guys did not do it and I imagine they found themselves on your situation down the line. I'm glad I did it back then. I'm now currently doing my 2396 and got a Merit in the exam. Hopefully I can put a decent portfolio together. I'm only doing it now as I have to show some sign of competency in signing off site designs for the company I work for.
I’m in the exact same boat! I have been a spark for 15 years and also have my own business, I have all my qualifications up to level 3 and I have done my am2. But because I done my course in the evenings and not as an apprentice I have now been told I need to do a portfolio costing £1200+ to continue being a spark and renewing my niceic (which I’ve been with since I can remember) I feel like I’m back to square 1! I hope the best for you bud and keep us all updated!
I think we all appreciate this video as it’s making many realise that being a sparky is not like other trades. Some have gone though the courses over the years and kissed the books good by thinking we never have to lift a book again. I always say this. Being a sparky is not like HGV driver for example where once’s you have the licence that’s it. No matter how good of a spark you are and no matter what route you took. Due to regulations changing all the time to up keep the safety new study based exams will come in which I’m sure all sparks will have to undertake even the ones that have been connecting wires since 1850’s. It’s part of the game and it’s part of being a spark. It’s not for all but learning the bullshit at times is part of the flow. It’s not fair but it’s what it is. Enjoy and embrace brothers and sisters.
I ended up with the same certificates without a final one stating I was an electrician so I admire your cause as the route to becoming an electrician should be made clearer from the start and there should be more transparency from colleges' from the beginning. However, if we were to be challenged in Law we'd refer to the EWR and from what you've said and what's in the regs you're more than qualified and showing continued learning proves that.
I have first hand experience of this, I know exactly what you are going through, I went to Chichester college around 2006, I did 3 years and came out with a C&G 2330. As far as I was concerned I was qualified. like you said, I was not told about the AM2 or the NVQ 3 portfolio. After I finished my 2330 I did the 2394 & 2395. It was then I found out I was not “qualified” I went to apply for my JIB Gold card and was told I could not have one, and I was given a trainee card. I ended up going back and doing my C&G 2357 NVQ 3 and AM2. It was expensive around £2500. I totally feel for you and know what you are going through. I personally think there are too many way in to our industry and it needs to be simplified.
I went college in 2009 and did 2330 and 2391 and 17th and the college did say at the time you needed the NVQ i just never got chance went straight into work with what I had was working as a mate for couple of years before college, they never made it seem important to get the NVQ
Adrian, I did my craft apprenticeship a long time ago, some of us did the craft City and Guilds college, a few of us did the BTec technicians course. None of us did the AM2 trade test. I ended up in project management as a senior project manager and senior technical services manager, member of the IET, APM and CIBSE, no degree or incorporation or chartership, I had a Black and a Gold ECS card. 8 years ago I had a bit of an epiphany and decided to go back to my trade. So from managing multimillion pound projects to man in a van. So with an indentured apprenticeship, up to date BS7671 C&G, Gold Card and a mass of other site management qualifications I still couldn’t register on the Competent Person Scheme to be a domestic installer. So I joined the firemen, ex servicemen, recently made redundant and Eastern European migrant workers at my local TradeSkills4U centre for a couple of weeks to get a C&G in Building Regs, and C&G in Initial Verification and Testing. You could walk in with no experience and 6 weeks later, having passed all the courses, walk out and register on a CPS scheme and call yourself an electrician, or domestic installer. You can buy public liability and professional indemnity insurance for a few hundred quid without showing a single piece of evidence. A few years ago I was approached by my local construction college to do some lecturing, teaching modern apprenticeships - I didn’t need to be a qualified electrician to teach, in fact I didn’t need to be a qualified teacher, but working towards a qualification was encouraged. I’ve just had my annual CPS audit from NAPIT, there is more emphasis on calibration certs and weekly checks, complaints procedures, risk assessments, GDPR policies and health and safety policies than what you can do and if you do it safely. It’s all about ticking boxes. Take a look at the ECS website and see where you fit in, if you’ve got a Level 3 cert in BS7671, and a Level 3 cert in Inspection and Testing with your Level 3 electrical technology certs and experience, I’d employ you as an electrician, and I’m sure you would get a Gold card as a JIB approved electrician. Remarkably, to work on domestic you can have a lower standard of qualification than industrial, but have to jump through more hoops. Chin up - you’re an electrician.
This is exactly what I’m talking about. How can you go from having all that experience, to being forced to take a 15 day domestic installers course to join a CPS! What a joke, and you are completely right about the tick box excercise
I’m probably what you would call a 14 day wonder course domestic installer. I’m on the NICEIC DI scam/scheme. I did an apprenticeship in telecoms and electronics back in the 80’s, then as a career change did the Niceic Domestic installer course about 2006. I’ve done the 16/17/18 edition multi guess quizzes and passed (100% in all 3 as it happens but how hard can it be you can take the book with all the answers into the exam) . Am I a qualified electrician? No. Am I competent ? Yes I believe so. Do I do an above average standard of work ? Judging by the shite I come across and upgrade/replace -yes. Do I understand why there seems to be an overly complex number of entry/exams/whatever -no. Anyway I’m a 14 say wonder I’ll let you qualified boys educate me ! Edit... would I bother going to college to take x or y module or any other form filling exercise ? No. But I do think the young lads or older lads embarking on a career in our industry have a clear and unambiguous path to gaining “qualification” excellent vid by the way.
Got this video randomly recommended by youtube. I'm in similar shoes I done my 2330 lvl 2&3 back in 2012 it's was apprenticeship, recently done 18th edition and was planning do inspection and testing courses after that everything else after that seems absurd. Due to all this this I decided to switch to Electrical engineering on machinery instead of trade. But thank you for a video It's good that someone spoke about this bs.
I did an apprenticeship - NVQ3 in electrical installations and then Testing & Inspection and AM2. All went well and I “think” I can say I’m a “fully qualified electrician” Thanks for sharing your story, I’m sure you’re not the only one.
No such thing as a fully qualified electrician as we are aways learning because the industry is constantly changing and it's changing fast as soon as we learn and sit another exam it changes and we have to do all again and sit a new exam for no real reason other than the scams to make more money and take our hard earned cash
@@seandempsey9396 however if you have single qualification you can’t have you are then fully qualified really you can learn that still be qualified because if you have a GCSE maths but work out something you didn’t understand when you were sitting them it doesn’t mean that you didn’t have that qualification for example
I have a similar route to you into the industry. I was made redundant from my job as a class 1 heavy goods driver (14 Years) I went into full time college and passed my nvq2 and Btec courses over 2 years (the second year working onsite plus college. I also passed my 16th edition (now up to 18th) and 2391 test and inspection. I worked my way up through a few jobs and eventually applied for my JIB card. I was told that even though I had my test and inspection, because I didn't have my level 3 I was classed as adult trainee. So I had to get my Level3 city and guilds and apply again after it was complete. After my level 3 I was awarded the grade electrician. I worked my way up in the firm and was eventually assessed by the NICEIC as a Qualified Supervisor. I no longer work for that firm and my QS has lapsed and I am now classified as an Approved Electrician by the JIB. I am currently an Electrical Product Engineer for Legrand so things have worked out OK for me.
I've been a sparky since 1976 and I am not recognised as a sparky anymore because my qualifications are so outdated. I'm not going ba k to school now. I'd rather retire. Every year, theres more leaning on academics than practical skills and experience. I can do anything with conduit, pyro, traywork etc. All fault finding and repairs. Electronics, audio, almost anything, yet I'm not recognised anymore? I came out of my time at 21, not 18. The money in this game goes less every year, almost in line with say. A taxi driver or window cleaner, or almost any job. It's not worth the hassle any more. I'm going to throw the towel in. Good luck mate. I hope you find what you're looking for.
I couldn’t afford to go to college and work at the same time. So I did the domestic installers package at a builder training centre that includes the 18th edition and 2391 level 2. I was told I could now go an be a mate. I also went and got an ECS labourers card which I needed the 18th for. Turns out the 3 days I spent in class going over mock test papers and learning how to find the regs in the book that I would need for the open book exam, didn’t actually mean that I knew any of the regs. Now I’m struggling to get work as a mate due to my inexperience and lack of knowledge and I think it’s criminal that I’ve got a city and guilds qualification in something in know absolutely nothing about for a job that is so dangerous. I agree with you. Why is there no set route with multiple ways for doing it. Full time, evening, weekends, etc. there are companies out there charging £8k and telling students their qualified enough to work, and they simply aren’t. It’s outrageous.
It’s mental Nadeem Leigh 🤯 The good news for you, is that you know your limitations, unlike many others running around with their worthless bits of paper. Obviously, the bad news is that it’s a costly mistake and one that wasn’t your fault, which is a bitter pill to take. I’m doing my best to highlight these massive failings, so if there is any way that you can help, then please do. If you ever feel like telling your story, we could do a Zoom meeting and get this important message out there 🙌
I'm currently on my L3 8202 (did L2 2365 last year). My take is simple; I wasn't going to consider myself as a qualified electrician until I get my gold card. I didn't know of the 5357 electrotechnical apprenticeship, and I doubt at 32 (and disabled) any would have taken me. My plan is/was 2365 L2 (and L3 - L3 instead was the 8202-30 as gov pulled the funding for 2365 @ L3), from those "baseline" (my wording) qualifications, I was going to go on to the 2391 (either as 2391 and 2392 seperately or the combined -52 course (but preferably taking seperate, purely due to experience being a prerequisite for the combined), from the I&T qualification then onto 2377 for PAT testing and likely onto the 2919 for EV then, and only then wasi going to look at the NVQ/AM2. It was made clear to us when we started the L2 2365 that doing that course and the L3 course would not make you a qualified electrician, if you wanted to try and pass off as one, that was on you. What we've not had yet (on the L3 8202) is any mention of the NVQ or AM2 so I'll wait to hear if anything is said, although knowing my college, unlikely (given we weren't told of the 2365 funding being pulled for the 2365 by gov - but that's another comment)
I followed the same route you did at the same time (different college). We were told the AM2 was only for the kids doing day release and it didn't apply to adult learners. On my course we had plenty of working sparks who were there just to get some paperwork to keep their employers happy. I never had a problem getting a job as an electrician with my qualifications.
Agree 100% with you. I had an apprentice from the same college you attended, they completed their NVQ Level 3 in under a week staging photos in their own home. At that point, on paper they were more qualified than myself yet could not understand the most basic of wiring systems. There needs to be a clear path to become a qualified electrician, alas that being said, you can still be qualified on paper yet not in my eyes be a competent electrician without actual experience.
I finished my apprenticeship (Industrial Maintenance Electrician) with my NVQ Level 3 and a HNC in General engineering, however I wasn't put on any regulations courses, no inspection and testing course or AM1 or 2. I too had no mention of these during my time at college, I went out of my own way to complete the 18th and inspection and testing.
Good man, it’s crazy there is not an easy to understand, clear and defined route to being qualified without room for misinterpretation or exploitation of students
I started off on the City and Guilds route then I was lucky to get an apprenticeship so got put on the NVQ route.To be on the NVQ route you had to have an apprenticeship with permanent on site experience.This would then allow you to complete a portfolio alongside it,because you were working on site and with photographs, could back up the points in which you had to fulfill.City and Guilds level 1,2 and 3 was aimed at people who were currently unemployed or looking to retrain part time in order to get a foothold in the industry.The Am2 was aimed at apprenticeships and this was the last piece of the jigsaw they had to pass to be able to qualify.The City and guilds route,you wouldn't have enough experience to pass the Am2. If you have 20 years experience in the industry thats massive,you shouldn't need to redo certain topics from back in the day.As far as I'm concerned with the 2391 running alongside what you have already, you are as qualified and experienced as the rest of us.
i went to college in 2004 to do the last year of 2360 , passed my part 1 then started part 2 at same time doing my 16th edition then 2391 which i passed before finishing my part 2 , I was assessed by the NICEIC and became a qualified supervisor while still at college . Am2 or NVQ was never mentioned it was only JIB that was the problem i had a JIB card as a qualified super only ? through the NICEIC. I have added 17th and 18th edition and PV qualifications over the years and as a self employed spark . I would have done more but getting the C cert or design C&G wasn't at my local college.
Thanks for this video. I was actually on a fast track course 2 years ago. Lead to believe I’d be able to go and get a job off the back of it. I walked away with... -part p domestic installer -building regs for dwellings -18th edition -pat testing -2394/95 and I’m yet to complete my design and verification course. Towards the end of the course I heard whispers of an am2 exam and every job I’ve applied for wanted this in order to get the job but no representative even mentioned it! Since then I’ve started an apprenticeship as a road rail Electrician bought a load of tools gained invaluable experience and am doing a 5 year degree as a part of the apprenticeship. In hindsight I was miss sold. But it did without doubt get the ball rolling for me and secured a good apprenticeship. Something definitely needs to be done about this though I don’t think it’s right. Everything is very unclear to someone looking to get into the industry and there needs a standardised clear route.
As has been said already, well done for publicly raising this issue. You’re certainly not alone. I’m (ahem) a little older, and the injustice of crooked training providers is not new to me or many people my age. Back in the day, any chancer could offer a YTS course, take the government’s money and make any promises they liked. I was one of those young people, genuinely and sincerely undertaking what I believed was an apprenticeship, only to end up with some City & Guilds certificates and a load of worthless paperwork. I persevered and, many years later, gained some of the right paperwork. But there’s no recourse, these institutions packed up as soon as they could start up something else under another name. I’ve visited some establishments in recent years pulling the same trick, churning out ‘Domestic Installers’, with no understanding of installation methods past or present. The majority of these ‘trainees’ are mature students, many on resettlement from the forces, who can’t afford to live on an apprenticeship wage for 2-4yrs. They’re all sold the dream of “re-training” and becoming an electrician, like it’s the same as packing boxes or delivering Amazon packages. It’s a complete lie to tell anyone they can become a qualified electrician in 5 weeks, but legally, holding a BS7671 certificate and a Part P certificate, is all you need to work on domestic electrics. It’s UK law that’s at fault, and until Government listens to educated advice rather than lobbyists and the IET gets out of bed with manufacturers, we’ll get nowhere.
So, I completed an apprenticeship back in the 80s under the EITB - whilst I'm no longer working as an electrician I've always kept my JIB card up to date and consequently had to keep certs up to date - wiring regs, test and inspection - surely that's just continual professional development. I do understand your perspective and agree that you should have been provided with all necessary training and exam modules, but surely we're each responsible for ensuring that our certs meet current requirements?
So pleased it's not just me! I did the 2330 Level 2 and 3 course around 2005. Did my 2391, Regs etc. Registered with Elecsa, self employed , successful business. I then had the opportunity to instruct part time at my local colleges electrical department. Long story short, I spent 15 years there teaching Level 3 apprentices. I've now left teaching and gone to restart my business. I went to re-register, but industry no longer accepts the 2330 course. I've just had to compete the experienced worker NVQ. Next step is AM2E! Couldn't believe it
@Pure Electrical Training - by Adrian Davey apparently because it had no NVQ attached to it. However, at the time, it was good enough to get me registered and then good enough to qualify me competent enough to teach the subject! Despite delivering C&G, we were never told this as a college!
I started my apprentership in 1968 went to college for 4 years, got my approved ticket in 73, 14 th ed of the regs, I took the new regs exams up to the 16th, worked for verious contractors as a subby mostly industrial untill my ECS gold card could not be renewed until I had taken the 18th ed ! that was when I had had enough of all these regs and at that age of 65 gave up being a sparky and will only do repairs and odd jobs from now on
The fact that we're the only country in the world where unqualified men can sign off work but qualified men without scheme membership have to pay for building control to certify its safety....well it's beyond a joke. If you're qualified you should immediately be able to certify work as safe. Part P is a joke unseen elsewhere in the world.
Hi I’ve done exactly what you have done.....night school , now 30 years on and worked in domestic,commercial and industry....worked in sir Kenneth Newman’s house ( commissioner for metropolitan police) , Scotland Yard and various mod sites,schools colleges ,Damien hirst mansion.....the list goes on and on....so I’m not qualified as well... Yet I know a lad got qualified from a company that also do its own training scheme ...once qualified kick you out into the big bad world...(they don’t want to pay qualified rates...only apprentices rates.) he worked for us for a short while and surprised he couldn’t do continuity test with a little £15 meter....didn’t have a clue about anything.....but he was a qualified electrician.....
In a court of law the judge will request that you are skilled to carry out the work. You will have to provide a 2391 type qualification. officially recognized as being trained to perform a particular job. An apprentice on the other hand may hold no qualifications yet carry out excellent work, is the electrician qualified? Absolutely! As long as the work is done correctly. But the apprentice cannot legally provide a eicr unless they hold the relevant proof of skills. What skills? Health and safety ! Hence electrocution and burns prevention, therefore a 2391 type qualification, holding an AM2 qualification and not working to the law is not going to protect you in court.
This happened to me i did the same as you then went off as a spark for 10 years then like you found out the jib didn't class me as a spark so had to take the nvq 3 to get a gold card and when my cert came it had a jib stamp at the top . Its a con and we should be able to seek some compensation as my nvq cost £1000
I also did a full time course for 3 years level 1,2 and 3 City and guilds. I then got a job as an electrician with a company which allowed me to then to do my portfolio for my nvq and am now waiting to do my AM2s. I'm now in my 7th year and am still not "qualified". Very long winded way to do things and again not much of a sense of direction as to what and how you should be working towards your goal of being a qualified electrician.
Personally, for me I was told at the age of 24 by the big firms that I was too old to be considered an apprentice. So, after phoning 70 companies mid November I found a fairly small company where they agreed to take me on, dependant on me finding a college placement straight away. Luckily, someone had dropped off the course and I jumped straight in. However, I could never gather the right evidence together to get my portfolio going, nevermind understand what I might have to do at the AM2. I scraped through the L3 2330 and 17th Edition. That was it. No chance of getting that JIB Gold card. You have a 3 yr window once you start the NVQ.
HI FROM GARY SPARKE I HAVE ALSO HAVE THAT PROBLEM WHEN I WA 19 AND I AM 60 NEXT YEARE AND NEVER HAD ANYTHING SINCE THEN EVEN WITH ALL THE QUALIFICATIONS THAT IHAVE THE JOKE IS THAT I DID THEM WITH SOME STUDENTS ON ANAPRENTISHIP IN THE 80S THAT WERE A COUPER OF YEARS OLDER THAN ME ENDED UP 2 CREDITS IN CITY AND GUILDS AND THAT AGE ISSUES ALWAYS COMES UP DO THE AND GET THE PAPERS AND DO IT BETTER THAN THAT FIRM AND WIPE THEM OUT AND DO IT CHAEPPER PLEASE GET A SHED AND BUILD AN AM2 THE AGE PROBLEMS IS ILLEGAL THE UK IS MEST UP BE AWRE THAT APRENISHIPCAN BE USE AS A WAY REPLACING PEOPLE AND WATCH FOR THE CON ARTIST DO THE PAPERS REQUIRE ON YUO OWN IF YUO HAVE TO BEFORE CON SINDERING A FIRM FIND IT THE PERSON TAKING HAS THE KNOWLEGE IN FIRST PLACE ASKE FOR THEIR QULIFACTION AND WHAT COLLEGE THEY WENT TO ASKED FOR THERE PROFF OF WHAT THEY THE RIGHT PAPPER FIRST GET YOUR HEAD ROUND THE WIRING REGS THER PLENTY OF FREE PDS ONLINE GO THROUGH THEM BUILD CURUITS AND UDERSTAND THEN THE MAN INVENTED THE WEEB DID HAVE JOB NIETHER DID TESLA PLEASE GET YOUR HAED AROUND PHYSICS OLEVEL AND MATHS YOU MUST LERN HOW TO PROGRAM BASIC SAVES ALOT OF WORK RECOMMEND SINCLAR BASIC AP PLEASE DOWNLOAD IT JOBS CENTRES WITH NEVER HELP YUO PLEASE GET YUO HEAD RUOND 3 D PRINTING ON EBAY A 100PUOND BUILED THAT LEARN HOW USE IT IN THIS TRADE THEIRE ALOT HEADES THAT ARE NOT THERE TO HELP AND WILL BE MEST YUO UP BE WISER THAN THE PERSON WHOS DOING IT ALL OF THE TIME ANY PROBLEMS GET KNOW YUOR MP AND WRITE TO THEM JOBS CENTRE ARE THEIRE FOR THE BOSSES AND NOT YUO SO DONT BE AFFENDED OLD SAYING CROBBLERS DONT GET ANY WERE
Hey Adrian, A great video. Myself I hold the City and Guilds level 2 and 3 2330 which I did at college whilst working alongside sparks in a construction firm. Went on to do the 17th edition. Eventually went on to do the City and Guilds 2377-22/32 inspecting and testing of electrical equipment and management (saw them as extra tickets to have) The EAL 4337/4338 intial verification and periodic inspecting and testing. The firm I was working with at the time tendered for a local council contract and the council at the time requested all electricians working on their houses must must hold the City and Guilds 2393 (Part P) so I got put through that and then more recently the 18th edition. But before the 18th I was working in the electrical industry as an electrician working in the Domestic, Commerical and Industrial sectors for over 10 years. Like yourself however I am also having to do the AM2 this year and my portfolio for the NVQ if I wish to get a Gold Card...... I know people who have done the NVQs and some of them all they did was get someone to take pictures of them literally posing with whatever material they needed to tick off that they had worked with ( tray and containment, SWA etc
That devalues the NVQ, as I’ve mentioned on another comment, the NVQ is about talking the talk, as well as walking the walk. These guys that cheat have not earned their qualification. It’s like typing in the cheat codes to skip levels on a computer game
im currently on level 3 at college and they have just told us we have to do am2 and the portfolio to be qualified. we have all paid 6k for the 3 years and now have to pay another 2k to get qualified. instructor said its a way of getting people qualified that couldn't get an apprenticeship.
This hits home with the situation I'm currently in. I did my apprenticeship nearly 20 years ago but didn't complete the final year and have been working in a company as the main electrician on site alongside an NIC QS for 15 years being responsible for training apprentices etc. I rescently applied to do my 2346 (experienced worker route) only to be rejected due to TESP changing the requirements in Sept 2023 to make my previous qualifications redundant. I'm now having to start from scratch with 20 years experience!
Currently in college doing my level 3 2365. Completed my 18th edition. Completed ECS h&s & Part P. (Certain councils require you to have part p to undertake any electrical work.. having said that it is in no way enforced as Part P is seen as a joke when compared to C&G / 18th edition qualifications) Technically, you do not need the 2391 to sign off work / installations; just need to be able to prove that you are "competent person" and registered with a governing body like the NICEIC / Napit. I know sparks that only have 18th edition and they can sign off their own / other peoples work. Having said that, i will definitely be doing my 2391 because.. why wouldn't you? If something goes wrong on an EICR you have recently submitted.. to prove you are a competent person to a court you can say i have completed the 2391 rather than saying "oh well the only trade courses i have completed that have anything to do with testing and inspection was Level 3".. It is my understanding that in the domestic sector the rules are fairly relaxed on what you need to complete installs. Whereas with industrial / commercial it is far more strict. This mainly comes down to the firms themselves requiring workers to have as many qualifications as possible so as to bring insurance costs down.. ie JIB Gold card / 2391 / NVQ Level 3. I've been told by my lecturers and from older electricians that the NVQ was a route brought in to help older electricians without any qualifications to gain them while working full time. However in the last 20 / 30 years it has been hijacked and turned into more of an apprenticeship for "school leavers" and the 2365 has reverted into the route for older learners wanting to gain qualifications. I've always been told that on paper the C&G qualifications are far more valuable than the NVQ purely because of this "portfolio" that the younger lads have to do while onsite. Apparently, it isn't actually teaching them the why/science behind what they are doing and installing which is where evening/full time college courses are more valuable. Many people have advised me that if i'm not going to work for a massive firm doing residential builds or commercial work then there is no point in doing the AM2 and getting a Gold Card. The JIB Gold card is only a ticket onto a building site with good wages but what is the point when i will be working for a small firm? You ask an NVQ electricians about the 2365 and he will say its a load of shite. And its vice versa for the 2365 guys. At the end of the day they only care about getting bums in seats and making a few quid. All depends on what you want to concentrate on in the industry.
I know this is a slightly old video but as of last year I found out I wasn't deemed an "Approved Electrician" & therefore unable to apply for an ECS gold card. From school I went straight into college, and left college with Level 3 in Electrical Installations (2330) Blame the college or blame me but, there was no emphasis on seeking out apprenticeship. First year I did an introduction course in Engineering, to help me get onto the Level 2 in Electrical Installations. No mention at the end of that year to seek an apprenticeship, so by the time I started Level 2 I was too late, firms had students in place. Anyways I passed, brilliant. Now I'll apply "We're looking for students fresh out of School" I pass my Level 3 and start applying, but I've no site experience. I eventually get in with a company, some years after finishing college. I've gained qualifications along the way, done latest regs etc.. and in 2021 I pass the C&G2391. The missing piece I thought. Nope, according to ECS I'm not approved. Imagine having to tell your boss that you can't apply for a Gold card because "I'm not approved" It's really hard to justify the price of doing the course, just to jump through a hoop the ECS have put out. I get why it's there, but surely there's a better way? Pretty fed up of jumping through hoops. You need this course and this qualification but that qualification expires in 3 years and now its new regs time, do another exam, buy another 3 book but throw those 3 books out the window in a years time because there will be an amendment.
100% And there is a better way coming, I’ve decided that we need something that is built by electricians, for electricians Help me make this a reality, because the current system is not fit for purpose for all the reasons you’ve described gofund.me/9ea467da
I spent 30 years working as an electrician across 3 different company’s and had my work passed by testers saying that my last company I worked for was only across 4 years and they told me I had to produce certification or they can’t fully employ me as an electrician even though I’d served my time 14 years with one company and 6 years with another so I went to Colege I achieved part 1 and 2 regs certificate am1 and 2391 inspecting and testing they then said I could call my self an electrician so this was like 23 years of working and in the last three of them gaining certification I then worked another 7 years doing the same work as I’ve always done I my mind pieces of paper don’t make you a certain trade but 20 years of consistent high grade of work and learning from your elders on site in my mind I can call my self a tradesman time served Because we live in a litical society you need to have certification to prove your competence for a defence
Really good video thanks for making it. I've seen all sides from the highly skilled with no tickets through to apprenticeship qualified but can barely wire a plug. The whole industry is a mess. There is a shortage of electricians and a rapid move towards electrical technologies in our society. But they'll never get anywhere unless this gets sorted out. I am nearly qualified via the apprenticeship route but I think I am less clear now than when I started about how the quals further quals, exams and requirements work. And there always just seems to be one more ticket with one more fee before u actually get there. No surprise. The industry needs more people like u.👍
Thank you for the kind feedback 🤝 I agree, it is in a mess and I don’t know what the answer is. I know what you mean about always needing one more thing, or one more ticket etc. I once went on an NICEIC solar PV course that cost around a £1000, only to be told at the end of the course that I would have to be MCS registered at a further £1000 cost, and this happened just before the feed-in tariff got cut, so within a few months all the work dried up 🤷♂️
You are qualified my friend, its not your fault that there are additional rules that have been brought in. I'm in exactly the same position as you trying to get an ECS gold card, I've been doing it for 40years but lacking a few sheets of paper.
Totally agree. I’m doing mine already 3 years got my Level 3 still missing the AM2 but as I know even with AM2 you can’t get ECS gold card. Also even with my certifications NVQ level 3 with 2391 inspection and testing couldn’t find a job. Most places they want ECS gold card
You do not need your gold card to get a job most companies nowadays only require that you have your 18th. I have never once been asked about my gold card but always get asked about my 18th
I stupidly didn't finish my apprenticeship I got a level 2 nvq, level 3 city and guilds. I then did 2391 off my own back like you, and I found a lot of work with that testing qualification. I have always wanted a job card even tho these days I'm in the film industry in special effects where I'm more like a controls engineer but I'm a sparky as far as anyone is concerned. Would love the gold card tho might have to just do an am2 and a silly portfolio one of these days I think there is a special course for people in this situation as it seems to be a widespread thing
I served my apprenticeship from 1975 to 1979 with the MOD, life was simpler then. 2 days a week I went to collage and worked the other 3. At the end of each course there were City & Guilds examinations which you either passed or failed. Having passed all 3 parts of the C&G exams I was entitled to call myself a qualified electrician. For those appentices that failed to gain all the certificates they were classed as time-served electricians but were not allowed to do inspections. Life was so much simpler then. Today you need plough through miles of red tape just to put on a plug top.
When a person can prove many years of experience working for reputable companies, specialised in electrical installation or electrical plant maintenance, or has a proven track record in a complex electrical environment can prove they have had relevant training, hold 18th edition regs qualification, hold 2391-52, they are legally qualified, legally skilled. AM2 is a cert from a specific organisation, which also has to follow the 18th edition regs, and it has to follow a 2391 type qualification. Their are plenty of AM2 qualified persons who do horrific work, they may hold the AM2 cert but do unqualified work. A excellent installation may just need to be inspected and tested, being qualified to test and inspect is specifically 2391, doesn't mean you need to do the installation. Qualified has Many meanings. Going around saying an experienced professional isn't qualified just because they don't hold AM2 is ludicrous because AM2 is only one of many qualifications. Holding a 2010 AM2 shows a person has completed an assessment doesn't prove they are up to date nor prove they are currently capable of working to latest standards.
Well said Adrian. Like you I went to college through my own accord to help get a job as an electrician. Soon after I started a job as a domestic installer. This was with a person who had done the same as you level 2 and level 3. When I completed my level 3 I left for a bigger company to find out which road I wanted to go down as an electrician. This was a industrial company which done installation/maintenance in process plants. Once again no problem no mention. 3 years ago I applied for a job in mining looking for some excitement. This is were I found out that I haven't completed my NVQ or done my AM2. The agreement of employment was that I would become an experienced apprentice and complete both the NVQ and AM2. This was a shock at first but a no brainer as they were willing to pay the fees and give me a decent wage but still not a qualified wage. It took me 2 years to complete the NVQ with portfolio which I found a waste of time. The assessor was useless as what I was doing was not something he had knowledge in, my job in mining been not very common. I completed the AM2 last year but had to go back and do more as they had left a unit out "no kidding " I have not got a gold card or do I have 18th edition as mining has its own regs. I found the whole ordeal very confusing and hard to find information. I know less sparks who did there NVQ and AM2 then didn't. Brilliant competent sparks much better then myself. You are the first person I know to actually question the system. Well done. How did you check to find out you had not got the right credentials?
I was trained many years ago as an " electrician" pre AM2, in the last 10 years i have added Gas and Fgas to my qualifications. It was only when i had to do a resit of my Gas qualifications, after 5 years, that the new college pointed out i had a key ticket missing from my "list of gas qualifications" so i had been carrying out some elements of gas work illegaly, Clearly i was not too chuffed as the first college i relied upon to know which tickets i needed for the type of work i wanted to do missed this important element. Neither my re-sit college, nor myself can fathom why i was allowed to be a qualified non-domestic gas engineer without one key ticket and even though i had been fully checked and completed my probabtion period with gas safe it still went un-noticed. I just think it is now way too complicated for any agency to work out what tickets are needed, hence the confusion. Anyway - it was a good video and i am sure you have all the necessary experience and knowledge to carry out safe practices. All the best for the future.
Had a very similar experience . I did the city and guilds 2330 . I was told when I started that once I had finished my 3.5 years of night school that I would be qualified. I did the am2 and passed and thought it was all done. Then on the handshake day I was told that I had to do my nvq (oh and did we mention we have a company that does this for 2k) . I put myself through this but it left a bitter taste in my mouth .
I served my time in the early 60s. It was a 5 year apprenticeship. City and guilds was 3 levels A B C. C being the highest grade. This was before JIB ratings, which were set by your employer. So whatever he said was taken as gospel. The level of certification these days amazes me. You almost get a certificate for putting a plug top on. Am I qualified ? I really don't know. My depth of knowledge is vast, BUT unproveable. This video has opened a whole can of worms for all of us. My initial qualifications are well dated by now, although I've done later regs updates and inspection and testing updates. Thanks for the video, very thought provoking
Take a look at this, it might help you make a decision. For someone of your ability it should be a breeze www.electricalcareers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/TESP-England-Route-4-Experienced-Worker-Assessment.pdf
I've got the same qualifications as you, there was no am2 when I left college in 1989, I've been running My own business for 25 years and been in the business 36. I work in heavy industry, prisons, schools etc. But my son who's a 21yo sparky is more qualified than me. 🤔
Adrian. Some very interesting points there mate. Ive been in the trade for 41 years, am I qualified? ... technically qualified?... Don't know , unlikely to be honest. I did a full 4.5 year apprenticeship along with block release to college throughout... At the end of the day, if you have the experience and consider yourself concientous to do the job properly, just crack on.. I have met hundreds of sparks throughout my time and some " Qualified " ones are absolutely shit tradesmen, others who are " Unqualified " are superb. Thanks again for raising a very valid point. All the best Gw.
I had the exact same problem as your self I went down the experienced worker route in the end did the portfolio and the AM2 finally got my jib gold card approved electrician it took ten years all because I wasn't given the correct information at the beginning of the course
I’m currently going through the same issue.mine is a plumbing cert,I carried out the whole course which was the best part of three years on day release.my final exams was two weeks long practical/theory and on completing the final exam the teacher tells me I have passed and am now qualified and I will get my cert in around two weeks.cert arrives two weeks later and work in the industry for around 10 years then JIB system comes in so I send off cert and JIB tell me it’s not full cert as it should have a red line but mine has a blue line.I went back to the college and all teachers have left as 10 years have passed.Ended up at C&G showed my course work and they said I completed course but didn’t know how to resolve it.I even asked what do you have to do to get a blue line on the cert and they didn’t know that either.
I’m currently on a probation period with my employer as they want the full certificate,I have shown the cert to a teacher in a local college and he has said my cert should have the red line as I passed in feb 2004 and portfolios started if you started the course 2003.I’m hoping when I can actually show the teacher my completed course work he can hopefully just sign something off so I get the full cert.C&G said take my completed work to a course and get it mapped against current course which is a lot less work apparently and hopefully it gets passed.what have you been told Adrian?
I had a similar experience, but realised straight after we finished the 2360 part 2!! So I did my 2391 and nvq 3 which got me the jib gold approved card. I could have been much clearer that the 2360 alone was not the full ticket!
hold 236-1 part 1 electrical instasions work part2 eleectrical installations work am the suplentry cerofacate electrical in st ation work full city and guild full crtifacaetes the problem is the nvq system and they dived in to levels i hold am1 open accsess did the am2 openacccsess FIAL IT AS I had NEVER ANY support for that and then BEEN blockED FROM doing AM2 the for 25 years and fed up WITH THEM thiere pushing nqs ON ME i dOnt need. done all THE ORIGINA; QUALIFACATIONS on MY OWN ON benifit no accses to aperntashipps its a bit of joke now ther pushing an nvqS there on me t do NEED ONLY REQURE the am2 origaly yuo GOT thw city AND GUILS IFYUO GOT GOT THRE AM1 AND AM2 YUO GOT THE NVQ3 BECAUSE THE PROBLEMS WITH TTHE AM2 CETRES THEY TRASHED MY ORIGANAL NVQ 3 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I’m just doing my evening classes in electrical installations level 2 at the moment and didn’t find out till afterwards that I had to do the Am2 as well. I thought it was just level 2, then level 3 and I’m fully qualified. Im still gonna go ahead with it, but even when trawling through the city and guilds website, it’s hard to find a definitive answer on what EXACTLY the qualification route is to be considered as fully qualified. I also think that employers don’t understand what it means to be fully qualified either. As lots of them will just state either ‘ 17th or 18th edition electrician ‘ or ‘ qualified in electrical installations ‘ .... Top bloke
Admittedly there is much confusion in this trade today, its all about training providers becoming cash cows, IMO part p in domestic installations has messed this industry up big time, when I started my apprentership there was no sector/division domestic, industrial, domestic installer. (what the hells that all about) There are many routes into becoming an Electrician today. IMO if you get accepted in any CPS they take your money, in their eyes your qualified Gold card be dammed. You can have as many certificates as long as your arm, with no practical experience they are as good as useless.
Thanks Adrian as ever for an honest informative video... My comments come from the background of an eternal student who has a teaching background and done many courses electrical/construction and non construction.... I have sat in many classes and even after 15 years of courses and experience as a multi skilled i can say I have good handskills and knowledge but I don't actually feel qualified at anything.... problems I've seen from a teaching point of view 1. City and guilds courses became less and less practical, more and more theory and health and safety, that were not really applicable to site work 2. The loss of genuine apprenticeships, 90% of people on the courses had no apprenticeship, doing the course meant they couldn't work. The way you describe doing night courses (I did the 2330 that way) seems to have ended 3. Teaching in construction, for a number of reasons not the greatest. Teachers many years off site, and low moral in further education establishments, lads onsite not really wanting to pass on their knowledge/skills, at worst undermining the learners confidence. 4. Finally the am2, and niciec registration maybe raising standards but it's also providing social blocks to people being able to be electricians. The non academic person, the finance needed if not with a supportive apprenticeship..... very difficult as I have found.... I have no easy answers, old school training, old apprenticeships (I met these lads from the 60s/70s apprenticeships) if you could physically/mentally survive them...their knowledge and skill level with a lifetime of work behind them was/is second to none....if I lived 3 lifetimes I could never match them...... Just my experiences/thoughts hope this adds to the discussion....
Hi I did a similar route as you, the AM 2 was not around or if it was then I’d not herd of it. I went to college to get my City & Guilds like you 1 day 2 nights, my teacher asked why I was doing this as I’d never be able to work on sites as I did not follow the apprenticeship route. . My answer was I’m going to work for my self 3 years later got my City & Guilds I did free work to gain practical experience over the 3 year period. Once I had my City & Guilds qualifications I applied for membership of the NICEIC and was examined on site and inspected and passed and was inspected for the next 10 years. As far as I was concerned I was a qualified electrician with high standards. I can see the amount of paperwork now and extra regulations now required for installations. I live in Thailand now and still do a bit of Electrics for friends, my NICEIC Inspector would die if he seen the standards here. Just found your video and Subscribed. Yes I hold my hands up did not go the apprenticeship route. Was an interesting video, watching your other vids now.
Thank you for taking the time to watch the video and get involved. My situation is particularly annoying because there are modules missing from my CG 2360 part 1&2 qualification. I don’t know why they are missing as I never missed a day, and I went with my best friend at the time and he got all of his. I’ve since found out that I am not alone and that college, as well as others are notorious for cost cutting and incompetence, and people like me have been left high and dry.
Ocourse if you go by the IET or the JIb you wouldn’t be classed as an Electrician till you pumped your hard earned money into their pockets for a lucky bag style card
Well said, Last September at the age of 45 I started college to retrain to be an electrician, so first year passed, about to enrol on the level 3 course, and there is some confusion to what I need to do next, I know I need the portfolio, then AM2, but why don't City and Guilds come up with a course that states, Year 1 you will learn this, Year 2 you will learn this, Year 3 to 4 you need so many hours of work experience, and you need to so evidence of the following list of work that you have carried out. Then you need to complete the AM2. To have the college that offers the level 2 and 3 parts of the course to also carry out the portfolio element then fair enough use the current AM2 assessment centres, that would make more sense to me, also have one course, so everyone is at the same standard at the point of passing AM2, then people could then upskill to specialize for example to do EV chargers, Solar PV etc
Really sorry to hear your in this predicament. Unfortunately this still goes on throughout the country, it's going to happen with the domestic installer courses. This will carry on where funding pots is available for lower level courses, colleges use people wanting to undertake such courses just to make.
You explain it very well and bring up some important issues. I went on a apprenticeship back in 1975 and it was the city & guilds A course 3 years, then the city & guilds B course 2 years, then i went on to the city & guilds C course 2 years. Today its all over the place and very confusing and messy!! And sadly all about making money!! I have just retired, thank goodness.
I,m fully qualified electrician, with all current paperwork, part p etc , gave it all up during lockdown, started delivery parcels, now have people Delivering for me , made far more money than I ever did out of electrical work. It seems the easy road pays way better.
Hi mate, i found out a few weeks ago i am in the same boat, i called ECS for my gold card, i done my part 1+2 16th 2391 between 1999-2001, my college lecturer told us this course was higher and better course than JIB courses, and i have 17th and 18th and been told i an not a qualified electrician, i also have been a NIC qualified supervisor for 2 years now, and been told by ECS i have to go back to college and resit all the courses again over a 2 year period and then do the am2 to get my gold card, i think its so ridiculous we have gone through all this to find out we have been lied too. I hope we can get to the bottom of this.
I agree 🙌 I’ve just been collating all my photo evidence from the last 5 years on the tools and I’ve got over 5000 photos across a wide range of jobs. Domestic, commercial and industrial. But, I cannot use any of them for evidence because I’m not in them 🤷♂️
Luckily as I done my apprenticeship through a government funded training provider (JTL) I was never misled and knew from day 1 I had to complete my NVQ and sit my AM2 to qualify for my gold card
Only problem with JTL was their handling of the logbooks back in 2004. They were awful. I had Ian Russell who lost my logbook and tried to get me to do it all again.
@@Pure_electrical_training I had a training officer when I started who didn’t have a clue what he was doing but other than that I haven’t had any issues with JTL. Covid caused a huge back log for them and they’re like 1/2 years behind so what was a 4/5 year apprenticeship has now turned into a 6/7 year but that isn’t JTLs fault
Just seen your video on qualifications just to clarify did you qualify in 2002 because that's roughly when I 'qualified' I did the City n guilds 2360 level 2 and 3 and the nvq level 2 and 3, I completed my portfolio. I did my 2391 and my regs. I had it confirmed before I finished the course at that point in time they did away with the am2 this is what I was told by South Kent college I was enrolled on the jib scheme as an approved electrician and am now an approved electrician with the ecs scheme and a recognised qs with the niceic, by the sounds of things your the same as me only difference is you did the evening corse I did the full time corse for my first year then 1 day release due to an apprenticeship. Try and double check for yourself before you do your am2,. Hope this helps.
This was the same in the 80's 2 routes available btec or City and guilds we went down the btec onc/hnc route just theory with a few practicals but City and guilds had installation and practical work for domestic electricians our was more industrial
I have serious doubts about the quality of work of some so called qualified electricians. Especially some that do EICRs snd find loads of unnecessary work to make more money.
What I don’t understand is collage they teach testing / exams and principle of it. At work I’m testing constantly, on my AM2 I have to test to pass the exam. But.... the 2391 I’d have to pay 1K and miss 5 days from work to learn about testing and inspection. Fair enough there’s EICR’s as it is abit more in-depth but why can’t there be a separate course for this only. (I think there used to be) Confused 🤷🏻♂️
Your employer should legally pay for all your training, unless they don’t need you to have the qualification. If that were the case, maybe they might cut you a deal
In thinking about the implications about this, it would be good if it didn't matter to be honest as like has been said there will be some clowns out there fully qualified but incapable of safely doing anything! Contrary to popular belief plant operating has no legislative requirement for a ticket, only that you have received information, instruction and training. Obtaining insurance would be tricky though!
Unfortunately C&G really muddy the water with the inconsistent appearance and breakdown of the separate portions to the qualification. I have the same spattering of partial certificates for aspects of the qualification. When I went through in 2002 I was graded by the JIB and have a copy of the confirmation of my grading as proof I achieved what was required. I also keep up to date even though I've been off the tools for a while. What frustrates me is anyone, regardless of background, can attend the and be awarded the 2382-18 course. Why???
The line "qualified" is a very odd one. As all you technically need to prove is competentcy for almost all situations. If you want a jib gold card then yes you may need to do your am2 but do you need a gold card. I do find it odd that there are companies out there providing courses claiming to be a spark in "6 weeks" when the only useful bit of paper you are left with is your 18th which could be done in a 3 days course. There are plenty of sparks out there who don't have all the bits of paper and are great sparks and there are guys who have don't a 5 year apprenticeship got all the bits of paper and produce shocking work. The cps should be far more strict on work completed and if you fail you should be struck off and that should be public info. Unfortunately it all just a money making exercise and people go round fleecing the public who are even more confused about who is and who isn't a spark
You can get a gold card in 15 weeks now too and another online company will fill out your NVQ over the phone ‘holistically’ 🤢 www.ableskills.co.uk/electrician-training-courses/jib-gold-card-electrical-training-course/
Mate I'm in the same boat. Did 3 years at Brighton city college from 2011 to 2014. I didn't get a single certificate even though I eventually passed everything. Paid £1200 a year even though I started on £50 a day working in London at the age of 33. When I finally finished the 3 years I assumed I'd get a certificate but got nothing. I carried on working on-site as a mate and never questioned it and then became a BMS commissioning engineer at 40 and didn't need to do the am2. However, now I need to renew my ECS card and they've changed the process. I need to upload my city and guilds cert in order to book my health and safety exam but of course, I didn't actually get one. I've been working on site for over 10 years now and never had an issue booking my health and safety exam. I can do yet another course at £150 and then take the ECS exam to get my card to enable me to work on site but the first booking is in June and my card runs out in April. I approached Brighton city college asking for my certificate but they told me I failed the course. 3 years of night college 3 times a week after working in London all day for fk all. The course was an absolute shambles. The tutors didn't have a clue what was going on either. Our only saving grace was our theory teacher Jim. He was shocked at our lack of knowledge after TWO YEARS. He basically taught us 3 years in 1 year and we passed. But nothing to show for it.
The qaulfercation you mentioned at the end of the video are new they came in with the part p compitant person sceem in 2014 , Don't worry about it you are qualified remember the regs and napit and the JIB and all the others are not law they have no legal rights to say who is qualified or not it clearly states in the regs book that the regs are not mandatory therefore they are not law. Also it is not a legal requirement to join the NICEIC jib or Napit they make up rules to suit themselves and charge there members an extortionate fees the JIB are nothing more than a trade union as are the NICEIC and Napit, one big scam
I bumped into your video looking for information about how NVQ work and I can’t believe that the same happened to me. I finished (or thought I finished) an NVQ Level 2 in Pharmacy Service Skills 5 years ago and just today I found out that what I have is only a few units and credits but not enough for the full certificate. It’s crazy because for years I’ve been adding this certificate to my CV and I’ve been working in Pharmacy for more than 6 years now. I feel cheated too. It’s so frustrating. Because I work for the NHS it is a requirement for my role as a supervisor to get this certificate so I have to enrol back again in the course to finish whatever units I need to finish 🤦🏾♀️
Great video Adrian really appreciate it...I jave completed my C&G Level 2&3 2365 in Electrical Installation, 18th Edition aswell. I never believed I was a qualified Electrician after doing these courses it was alway about making money for the colleges and the lectures were just salesmen selling you hope. I do not have much practical experience but did pretty well on the course. I hope to do my portfolio and AM2 but I am only currently working in a maintenance role, so not sure what to do.
It was made clear to me when I started the route to qualify in 2013 it’s Level 1, 2 & 3 if you don’t have an apprenticeship. Then do your portfolio and am2 and you’re qualified! That’s the route I took, was around 4 years! Been qualified for 2 years now, want to do the 2391, but it’s £1400!! Money grabbing bastards!!
To do what we do, should be worth it with all the CPD we have to do, the money we have to lay out, but our wages have dropped below every other trade due to the dilution of our industry. It’s a sad state of affairs
I consider myself a qualified electrician but have never heard of an AM2? Maybe because I started back in 1976 as a 16 year old industrial electrical apprentice - day release / night school etc. I don’t suppose my 2:1 honours degree in Electrical and Electronic engineering makes me any more qualified.
Hi Adrian, taking AM2 next week. 1 question on the certs, zdb or zsdb a measurement is to be written. This area has always been vague and I can never get a definitive answer. Ze, simple enough, Zs end point of circuit, great. Zdb (Zsdb) though, as far as I’m aware this is taken for sub boards and N/A would be written if the board is supplied from the origin at the meter. But other tutors state take the measurement, leaving the main earth connected and breakers on thus EFLI of the whole installation including the external side. If this is the case I would assume as a live test bonding conductors left connected. So what must I display on the EIC ?
In my opinion the collage had a duty of care to provide the education you enrolled for them to supply. They were responsible for ensuring your qualifications were valid & informing you of any shortfall in the course & directing you through the maze of modules they provided. So you left qualified as you rightfully expected to be. You paid to be trained by this college & they had a duty to supply what you paid for. I recall the IEE as it once was; now the IET changing their recognised education requirements in the early 80's which MUST HAVE RESULTED in students completing courses which were previously resulted in recognised qualifications being no longer recognised. In those days there was the C&G, ONC, HNC & degree courses which were recognised. Then they started modularising these courses resulting in not being qualified unless you completed ALL the modules & possibly a final module like yourself. Or stipulating other limitations to appear more valuable than they were. In the 80's the IEE at the time stated unless you did this course, at that university or college your qualification would not be recognised by the IEE/IET. Around the late 70's, 1979 they gained royal ascent to make the institute more politically powerful. Then the free courses/grants stopped & education became a business. To the point now students are shelling out £1000's for in some cases, possibly more poor education, because it became a machine to make money. There is a whole generation of engineers & technicians who are very competent, who were deceived by the so called professional establishment & education system because of their abuse of position & power over decades.
I agree with you, i have just finished the course in October & i have finished my 2391 inspection & Testing beside all the other qualifications & there are much left to do that i was not aware of! The NVQ, AM2, PRTFOLIO! So many roots & you don't know the difference! Its a shame
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My personal take on this is that you are a qualified electrician. You have electrical qualifications, you work as an electrician, you are presumably competent in the range of work you do. This, I believe, meets the dictionary definition. Certain industry bodies may not accept your qualifications for certain types of work, but who gives a toss? So long as you know you're doing a good job and your clients are happy, crack on I say.
And never forget that someone can have all the qualifications in the world and still be shite.
Completely agree, although I don’t have any electrical qualifications for the 2360 parts 1&2, as the college failed to process the paperwork correctly.
I never received the final certificate
@@Pure_electrical_training Adrian please stop beeting your self up you Are qualified you don't need a more than what you already have tell the NICEIC AND NAPIT AND ANY OTHER PART P SCAMMER TO BLOW IT OUT THERE ASS, if you were not qualified then you would not be working as a college instructor they would not give you a job .
Keep up the good work mate I have been watching your videos and I can't find any wrong with any thing you demonstrate. And remember it is not a legal requirement to have any formal training or qaulfercations to be an electrician.
The HSE and prosecution barrister would have a very different view on this in the event of an accident/incident.
@@chrisb4009 in the event of an accident/incident that you were personally responsible for, I'm not sure qualifications, CPS etc would make any difference. You would be responsible regardless.
@@andrewcadby If you’re competent to do the work, have the correct insurances and are otherwise acting as a responsible business owner and there is an incident you’re in trouble.
If you don’t hold the relevant qualifications, your insurance is invalidated, you’re working outside your competence etc. You’ve not only caused an incident but you’re in the same boat as a builder doing electrical work or similar. It’s possibly worse as you can’t even claim ignorance.
Industry is a joke, things move on all the time, I know guys who have no qualifications and are more competent than people who have certificates coming out their arses
so true I've worked with some switch on clever lads with no certificates but run rings others.
You are SO RIGHT SIR.
The more exams you have the more brainwashed you are.
Further education is just another business now... it's all about the money.
Higher education is worse its paying more for a lot less, when it was free you got a good education, contact time, facilities, 3k years ago, less than before, less contact time, since 9k.its a joke, talking about S. T. E. M, the other so called higher education stuff be it David Beckham studies, gender studies, teaching, etc it's pure profit, plus they make a mint of digs, books etc, I have left very lucrative jobs in both health care and education, because its blood money, I am back to working on site(s), like 20 years ago. Happy and guilt free,
I have the same certificates as you and have been a commercial sparky for 18 years...personally I think the best qualification you can get is on site experience!! 👍🏻
30% in college.
70% on site
I worked for years without and thing the last job as the electrician of a factory which run 24/7 talking from 64 till 79
It's the same in university, charge you 9k, for nothing more than ( in fact less) from when you was paying nothing or 3k recently, its all about money, checkout on amazon or wherever secrets of the magna carta, oyeah part P was introduced ASAP to stop the trades charging the going rate ( supply and demand) remember in the late 80's when the trades eg plasterers, plumbers electricians, etc made a fortune down south east, I remember as a small child people " up north" going London or se, to work for three days and come back flush, so much so, Harry Enfield had a comedy sketch on laods a money, where the guys would floss it, with hand full of cash, then the banksters opened up the gates of trades, starting with Eastern Europe, Poland, etc, then waited for part P to finish of the electrical trade, plumbing, plastering etc, the game is rigged, the niceic and the rest of the scams oops schemes are just money making of your labour and time, they are as good as a serf overlord class,
Jamie your right about experience, but as good as you may be, your still not fully qualified are you?
@@jimbaird9389 whatever!! And just because you have a full drivers licence doesn't mean your a good driver!!
God bless you mate. Not many would of made a video like this. I wish you all the best.
You’re welcome 🙏
You are very brave for speaking up! The very same thing happened to me, I am older, did my C&G in 1989-1993. I did part 1,2,3 and testing course and NVQ but went I went to renew my registration one day they said sorry the rules have changed. I was not an occasional electrician, I worked six days a week most weeks for 32 years, being an NIE-EIC QM and Reci contractor. All my work was high end, schools, museums, very luxurious domestic all the way. Like yourself I also meticulously trained around a dozen apprentices. So was not happy to settle for a jib or domestic card. I got to keep my registration in the end but really had to fight for it.
I do have to say to I do not blame the colleges, as the courses were very well taught and all the knowledge comes flooding back any time you do any update course. Experience is everything and you will sail through this bull.
Same as you mate, all the same qualifications from 2360 in 1998. I contacted Napit, and they put me on their Blue Flame course, which was really easy, I believe it’s a 2391 equivalent.
I had a similar experience back in 2008. I did a training course over 2 weeks part P course and did the regs exam and then put myself forward for the testing and inspection. Passed all and thought I could be a spark. Only later did I find out I wasn't qualified fully. I then went back to college and did level 2 and level 3, luckily while doing level 3 I was told I had to do an ncq to be fully qualified, this was before the am2 was introduced. A lot of the guys did not do it and I imagine they found themselves on your situation down the line. I'm glad I did it back then. I'm now currently doing my 2396 and got a Merit in the exam. Hopefully I can put a decent portfolio together. I'm only doing it now as I have to show some sign of competency in signing off site designs for the company I work for.
I’m in the exact same boat! I have been a spark for 15 years and also have my own business, I have all my qualifications up to level 3 and I have done my am2. But because I done my course in the evenings and not as an apprentice I have now been told I need to do a portfolio costing £1200+ to continue being a spark and renewing my niceic (which I’ve been with since I can remember) I feel like I’m back to square 1! I hope the best for you bud and keep us all updated!
That doesn’t make any sense
I think we all appreciate this video as it’s making many realise that being a sparky is not like other trades. Some have gone though the courses over the years and kissed the books good by thinking we never have to lift a book again. I always say this. Being a sparky is not like HGV driver for example where once’s you have the licence that’s it. No matter how good of a spark you are and no matter what route you took. Due to regulations changing all the time to up keep the safety new study based exams will come in which I’m sure all sparks will have to undertake even the ones that have been connecting wires since 1850’s. It’s part of the game and it’s part of being a spark. It’s not for all but learning the bullshit at times is part of the flow. It’s not fair but it’s what it is. Enjoy and embrace brothers and sisters.
I ended up with the same certificates without a final one stating I was an electrician so I admire your cause as the route to becoming an electrician should be made clearer from the start and there should be more transparency from colleges' from the beginning. However, if we were to be challenged in Law we'd refer to the EWR and from what you've said and what's in the regs you're more than qualified and showing continued learning proves that.
I am 52 years old and I’m looking to become an electrication this video is invaluable thank you.
I have first hand experience of this, I know exactly what you are going through, I went to Chichester college around 2006, I did 3 years and came out with a C&G 2330. As far as I was concerned I was qualified. like you said, I was not told about the AM2 or the NVQ 3 portfolio. After I finished my 2330 I did the 2394 & 2395. It was then I found out I was not “qualified” I went to apply for my JIB Gold card and was told I could not have one, and I was given a trainee card.
I ended up going back and doing my C&G 2357 NVQ 3 and AM2. It was expensive around £2500.
I totally feel for you and know what you are going through. I personally think there are too many way in to our industry and it needs to be simplified.
I went college in 2009 and did 2330 and 2391 and 17th and the college did say at the time you needed the NVQ i just never got chance went straight into work with what I had was working as a mate for couple of years before college, they never made it seem important to get the NVQ
Adrian, I did my craft apprenticeship a long time ago, some of us did the craft City and Guilds college, a few of us did the BTec technicians course. None of us did the AM2 trade test. I ended up in project management as a senior project manager and senior technical services manager, member of the IET, APM and CIBSE, no degree or incorporation or chartership, I had a Black and a Gold ECS card. 8 years ago I had a bit of an epiphany and decided to go back to my trade. So from managing multimillion pound projects to man in a van. So with an indentured apprenticeship, up to date BS7671 C&G, Gold Card and a mass of other site management qualifications I still couldn’t register on the Competent Person Scheme to be a domestic installer. So I joined the firemen, ex servicemen, recently made redundant and Eastern European migrant workers at my local TradeSkills4U centre for a couple of weeks to get a C&G in Building Regs, and C&G in Initial Verification and Testing. You could walk in with no experience and 6 weeks later, having passed all the courses, walk out and register on a CPS scheme and call yourself an electrician, or domestic installer. You can buy public liability and professional indemnity insurance for a few hundred quid without showing a single piece of evidence. A few years ago I was approached by my local construction college to do some lecturing, teaching modern apprenticeships - I didn’t need to be a qualified electrician to teach, in fact I didn’t need to be a qualified teacher, but working towards a qualification was encouraged. I’ve just had my annual CPS audit from NAPIT, there is more emphasis on calibration certs and weekly checks, complaints procedures, risk assessments, GDPR policies and health and safety policies than what you can do and if you do it safely. It’s all about ticking boxes. Take a look at the ECS website and see where you fit in, if you’ve got a Level 3 cert in BS7671, and a Level 3 cert in Inspection and Testing with your Level 3 electrical technology certs and experience, I’d employ you as an electrician, and I’m sure you would get a Gold card as a JIB approved electrician. Remarkably, to work on domestic you can have a lower standard of qualification than industrial, but have to jump through more hoops. Chin up - you’re an electrician.
This is exactly what I’m talking about. How can you go from having all that experience, to being forced to take a 15 day domestic installers course to join a CPS!
What a joke, and you are completely right about the tick box excercise
@@Pure_electrical_training I believe the CPS is a government sponsored scheme, I trust that answers the frustration we all recognise!
I’m probably what you would call a 14 day wonder course domestic installer. I’m on the NICEIC DI scam/scheme. I did an apprenticeship in telecoms and electronics back in the 80’s, then as a career change did the Niceic Domestic installer course about 2006. I’ve done the 16/17/18 edition multi guess quizzes and passed (100% in all 3 as it happens but how hard can it be you can take the book with all the answers into the exam) . Am I a qualified electrician? No. Am I competent ? Yes I believe so. Do I do an above average standard of work ? Judging by the shite I come across and upgrade/replace -yes. Do I understand why there seems to be an overly complex number of entry/exams/whatever -no. Anyway I’m a 14 say wonder I’ll let you qualified boys educate me ! Edit... would I bother going to college to take x or y module or any other form filling exercise ? No. But I do think the young lads or older lads embarking on a career in our industry have a clear and unambiguous path to gaining “qualification” excellent vid by the way.
Got this video randomly recommended by youtube. I'm in similar shoes I done my 2330 lvl 2&3 back in 2012 it's was apprenticeship, recently done 18th edition and was planning do inspection and testing courses after that everything else after that seems absurd. Due to all this this I decided to switch to Electrical engineering on machinery instead of trade. But thank you for a video It's good that someone spoke about this bs.
Thank you and you are right, it needed to be spoken about and it’s a shame it’s been going on for so long
I did an apprenticeship - NVQ3 in electrical installations and then Testing & Inspection and AM2. All went well and I “think” I can say I’m a “fully qualified electrician”
Thanks for sharing your story, I’m sure you’re not the only one.
No such thing as a fully qualified electrician as we are aways learning because the industry is constantly changing and it's changing fast as soon as we learn and sit another exam it changes and we have to do all again and sit a new exam for no real reason other than the scams to make more money and take our hard earned cash
Kick a bloke when he's down haha might aswell say your typing that from your swimming pool with your 25yr old fit missus in your 6 bed house.
Probably a "suitably qualified Electrician"
@@tresslerj1985 that may be a better discription.? Or highly qualified maybe?
@@seandempsey9396 however if you have single qualification you can’t have you are then fully qualified really you can learn that still be qualified because if you have a GCSE maths but work out something you didn’t understand when you were sitting them it doesn’t mean that you didn’t have that qualification for example
I have a similar route to you into the industry. I was made redundant from my job as a class 1 heavy goods driver (14 Years) I went into full time college and passed my nvq2 and Btec courses over 2 years (the second year working onsite plus college. I also passed my 16th edition (now up to 18th) and 2391 test and inspection. I worked my way up through a few jobs and eventually applied for my JIB card.
I was told that even though I had my test and inspection, because I didn't have my level 3 I was classed as adult trainee. So I had to get my Level3 city and guilds and apply again after it was complete.
After my level 3 I was awarded the grade electrician.
I worked my way up in the firm and was eventually assessed by the NICEIC as a Qualified Supervisor.
I no longer work for that firm and my QS has lapsed and I am now classified as an Approved Electrician by the JIB.
I am currently an Electrical Product Engineer for Legrand so things have worked out OK for me.
I've been a sparky since 1976 and I am not recognised as a sparky anymore because my qualifications are so outdated. I'm not going ba k to school now. I'd rather retire. Every year, theres more leaning on academics than practical skills and experience. I can do anything with conduit, pyro, traywork etc. All fault finding and repairs. Electronics, audio, almost anything, yet I'm not recognised anymore? I came out of my time at 21, not 18. The money in this game goes less every year, almost in line with say. A taxi driver or window cleaner, or almost any job. It's not worth the hassle any more. I'm going to throw the towel in. Good luck mate. I hope you find what you're looking for.
I couldn’t afford to go to college and work at the same time. So I did the domestic installers package at a builder training centre that includes the 18th edition and 2391 level 2.
I was told I could now go an be a mate.
I also went and got an ECS labourers card which I needed the 18th for.
Turns out the 3 days I spent in class going over mock test papers and learning how to find the regs in the book that I would need for the open book exam, didn’t actually mean that I knew any of the regs. Now I’m struggling to get work as a mate due to my inexperience and lack of knowledge and I think it’s criminal that I’ve got a city and guilds qualification in something in know absolutely nothing about for a job that is so dangerous.
I agree with you. Why is there no set route with multiple ways for doing it. Full time, evening, weekends, etc. there are companies out there charging £8k and telling students their qualified enough to work, and they simply aren’t. It’s outrageous.
It’s mental Nadeem Leigh 🤯
The good news for you, is that you know your limitations, unlike many others running around with their worthless bits of paper.
Obviously, the bad news is that it’s a costly mistake and one that wasn’t your fault, which is a bitter pill to take.
I’m doing my best to highlight these massive failings, so if there is any way that you can help, then please do.
If you ever feel like telling your story, we could do a Zoom meeting and get this important message out there 🙌
This just from the JIB handbook which is constantly changing, when I became an electrician back in the 80's all you needed was 236-1&2 nothing else.
Exactly the same, I got the am1
But my bosses said not to do the am2
I failed the written 236 part 2
1n 1999 igot industry assessed
Them were the days.
I'm currently on my L3 8202 (did L2 2365 last year). My take is simple; I wasn't going to consider myself as a qualified electrician until I get my gold card.
I didn't know of the 5357 electrotechnical apprenticeship, and I doubt at 32 (and disabled) any would have taken me.
My plan is/was 2365 L2 (and L3 - L3 instead was the 8202-30 as gov pulled the funding for 2365 @ L3), from those "baseline" (my wording) qualifications, I was going to go on to the 2391 (either as 2391 and 2392 seperately or the combined -52 course (but preferably taking seperate, purely due to experience being a prerequisite for the combined), from the I&T qualification then onto 2377 for PAT testing and likely onto the 2919 for EV then, and only then wasi going to look at the NVQ/AM2.
It was made clear to us when we started the L2 2365 that doing that course and the L3 course would not make you a qualified electrician, if you wanted to try and pass off as one, that was on you. What we've not had yet (on the L3 8202) is any mention of the NVQ or AM2 so I'll wait to hear if anything is said, although knowing my college, unlikely (given we weren't told of the 2365 funding being pulled for the 2365 by gov - but that's another comment)
I followed the same route you did at the same time (different college). We were told the AM2 was only for the kids doing day release and it didn't apply to adult learners. On my course we had plenty of working sparks who were there just to get some paperwork to keep their employers happy. I never had a problem getting a job as an electrician with my qualifications.
level 2 and 3 C&G mate?
Agree 100% with you. I had an apprentice from the same college you attended, they completed their NVQ Level 3 in under a week staging photos in their own home. At that point, on paper they were more qualified than myself yet could not understand the most basic of wiring systems. There needs to be a clear path to become a qualified electrician, alas that being said, you can still be qualified on paper yet not in my eyes be a competent electrician without actual experience.
I finished my apprenticeship (Industrial Maintenance Electrician) with my NVQ Level 3 and a HNC in General engineering, however I wasn't put on any regulations courses, no inspection and testing course or AM1 or 2. I too had no mention of these during my time at college, I went out of my own way to complete the 18th and inspection and testing.
Good man, it’s crazy there is not an easy to understand, clear and defined route to being qualified without room for misinterpretation or exploitation of students
Clear and easy does not generate money efficiently enough
I started off on the City and Guilds route then I was lucky to get an apprenticeship so got put on the NVQ route.To be on the NVQ route you had to have an apprenticeship with permanent on site experience.This would then allow you to complete a portfolio alongside it,because you were working on site and with photographs, could back up the points in which you had to fulfill.City and Guilds level 1,2 and 3 was aimed at people who were currently unemployed or looking to retrain part time in order to get a foothold in the industry.The Am2 was aimed at apprenticeships and this was the last piece of the jigsaw they had to pass to be able to qualify.The City and guilds route,you wouldn't have enough experience to pass the Am2. If you have 20 years experience in the industry thats massive,you shouldn't need to redo certain topics from back in the day.As far as I'm concerned with the 2391 running alongside what you have already, you are as qualified and experienced as the rest of us.
i went to college in 2004 to do the last year of 2360 , passed my part 1 then started part 2 at same time doing my 16th edition then 2391 which i passed before finishing my part 2 , I was assessed by the NICEIC and became a qualified supervisor while still at college . Am2 or NVQ was never mentioned it was only JIB that was the problem i had a JIB card as a qualified super only ? through the NICEIC. I have added 17th and 18th edition and PV qualifications over the years and as a self employed spark . I would have done more but getting the C cert or design C&G wasn't at my local college.
My understanding is that a QS doesn’t even need to be qualified
@@Pure_electrical_training i seem to remember it was just regs and 2391 and demonstrating competence
Thanks for this video. I was actually on a fast track course 2 years ago. Lead to believe I’d be able to go and get a job off the back of it. I walked away with...
-part p domestic installer
-building regs for dwellings
-18th edition
-pat testing
-2394/95
and I’m yet to complete my design and verification course.
Towards the end of the course I heard whispers of an am2 exam and every job I’ve applied for wanted this in order to get the job but no representative even mentioned it!
Since then I’ve started an apprenticeship as a road rail Electrician bought a load of tools gained invaluable experience and am doing a 5 year degree as a part of the apprenticeship.
In hindsight I was miss sold. But it did without doubt get the ball rolling for me and secured a good apprenticeship.
Something definitely needs to be done about this though I don’t think it’s right. Everything is very unclear to someone looking to get into the industry and there needs a standardised clear route.
As has been said already, well done for publicly raising this issue. You’re certainly not alone. I’m (ahem) a little older, and the injustice of crooked training providers is not new to me or many people my age. Back in the day, any chancer could offer a YTS course, take the government’s money and make any promises they liked. I was one of those young people, genuinely and sincerely undertaking what I believed was an apprenticeship, only to end up with some City & Guilds certificates and a load of worthless paperwork. I persevered and, many years later, gained some of the right paperwork. But there’s no recourse, these institutions packed up as soon as they could start up something else under another name. I’ve visited some establishments in recent years pulling the same trick, churning out ‘Domestic Installers’, with no understanding of installation methods past or present. The majority of these ‘trainees’ are mature students, many on resettlement from the forces, who can’t afford to live on an apprenticeship wage for 2-4yrs. They’re all sold the dream of “re-training” and becoming an electrician, like it’s the same as packing boxes or delivering Amazon packages. It’s a complete lie to tell anyone they can become a qualified electrician in 5 weeks, but legally, holding a BS7671 certificate and a Part P certificate, is all you need to work on domestic electrics. It’s UK law that’s at fault, and until Government listens to educated advice rather than lobbyists and the IET gets out of bed with manufacturers, we’ll get nowhere.
I completely agree 🤝
Get a petition going and get names on paper, this sort of thing needs collective effort.
So, I completed an apprenticeship back in the 80s under the EITB - whilst I'm no longer working as an electrician I've always kept my JIB card up to date and consequently had to keep certs up to date - wiring regs, test and inspection - surely that's just continual professional development. I do understand your perspective and agree that you should have been provided with all necessary training and exam modules, but surely we're each responsible for ensuring that our certs meet current requirements?
So pleased it's not just me!
I did the 2330 Level 2 and 3 course around 2005. Did my 2391, Regs etc. Registered with Elecsa, self employed , successful business. I then had the opportunity to instruct part time at my local colleges electrical department. Long story short, I spent 15 years there teaching Level 3 apprentices.
I've now left teaching and gone to restart my business. I went to re-register, but industry no longer accepts the 2330 course.
I've just had to compete the experienced worker NVQ. Next step is AM2E! Couldn't believe it
The whole situation is an absolute joke 🤦♂️
I would be interested in knowing why the CG 2330 was not considered sufficient 🤔
@Pure Electrical Training - by Adrian Davey apparently because it had no NVQ attached to it. However, at the time, it was good enough to get me registered and then good enough to qualify me competent enough to teach the subject! Despite delivering C&G, we were never told this as a college!
I started my apprentership in 1968 went to college for 4 years, got my approved ticket in 73, 14 th ed of the regs, I took the new regs exams up to the 16th, worked for verious contractors as a subby mostly industrial untill my ECS gold card could not be renewed until I had taken the 18th ed ! that was when I had had enough of all these regs and at that age of 65 gave up being a sparky and will only do repairs and odd jobs from now on
The fact that we're the only country in the world where unqualified men can sign off work but qualified men without scheme membership have to pay for building control to certify its safety....well it's beyond a joke. If you're qualified you should immediately be able to certify work as safe. Part P is a joke unseen elsewhere in the world.
Hi I’ve done exactly what you have done.....night school , now 30 years on and worked in domestic,commercial and industry....worked in sir Kenneth Newman’s house ( commissioner for metropolitan police) , Scotland Yard and various mod sites,schools colleges ,Damien hirst mansion.....the list goes on and on....so I’m not qualified as well...
Yet I know a lad got qualified from a company that also do its own training scheme ...once qualified kick you out into the big bad world...(they don’t want to pay qualified rates...only apprentices rates.) he worked for us for a short while and surprised he couldn’t do continuity test with a little £15 meter....didn’t have a clue about anything.....but he was a qualified electrician.....
I would guess that is the majority of apprentices these days
you do not need to be qualified historically, you merely need to be able to prove competence - thats the law despite what the NICEIC say...
In a court of law the judge will request that you are skilled to carry out the work. You will have to provide a 2391 type qualification.
officially recognized as being trained to perform a particular job.
An apprentice on the other hand may hold no qualifications yet carry out excellent work, is the electrician qualified? Absolutely! As long as the work is done correctly. But the apprentice cannot legally provide a eicr unless they hold the relevant proof of skills. What skills? Health and safety ! Hence electrocution and burns prevention, therefore a 2391 type qualification, holding an AM2 qualification and not working to the law is not going to protect you in court.
@@deniscotter525 How many Electricians actually end up in court? Never heard of one🤣🤣🤣
Excellent vidro after 6 years and L 2 L3 and inspection and testing still I am not fully qualified.
This happened to me i did the same as you then went off as a spark for 10 years then like you found out the jib didn't class me as a spark so had to take the nvq 3 to get a gold card and when my cert came it had a jib stamp at the top . Its a con and we should be able to seek some compensation as my nvq cost £1000
I also did a full time course for 3 years level 1,2 and 3 City and guilds. I then got a job as an electrician with a company which allowed me to then to do my portfolio for my nvq and am now waiting to do my AM2s. I'm now in my 7th year and am still not "qualified". Very long winded way to do things and again not much of a sense of direction as to what and how you should be working towards your goal of being a qualified electrician.
Personally, for me I was told at the age of 24 by the big firms that I was too old to be considered an apprentice. So, after phoning 70 companies mid November I found a fairly small company where they agreed to take me on, dependant on me finding a college placement straight away. Luckily, someone had dropped off the course and I jumped straight in. However, I could never gather the right evidence together to get my portfolio going, nevermind understand what I might have to do at the AM2. I scraped through the L3 2330 and 17th Edition. That was it. No chance of getting that JIB Gold card. You have a 3 yr window once you start the NVQ.
Try this
www.electricalcareers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/TESP-England-Route-4-Experienced-Worker-Assessment.pdf
HI FROM GARY SPARKE I HAVE ALSO HAVE THAT PROBLEM WHEN I WA 19 AND I AM 60 NEXT YEARE AND NEVER HAD ANYTHING SINCE THEN EVEN WITH ALL THE QUALIFICATIONS THAT IHAVE THE JOKE IS THAT I DID THEM WITH SOME STUDENTS ON ANAPRENTISHIP IN THE 80S THAT WERE A COUPER OF YEARS OLDER THAN ME ENDED UP 2 CREDITS IN CITY AND GUILDS AND THAT AGE ISSUES ALWAYS COMES UP DO THE AND GET THE PAPERS AND DO IT BETTER THAN THAT FIRM AND WIPE THEM OUT AND DO IT CHAEPPER PLEASE GET A SHED AND BUILD AN AM2 THE AGE PROBLEMS IS ILLEGAL THE UK IS MEST UP BE AWRE THAT APRENISHIPCAN BE USE AS A WAY REPLACING PEOPLE AND WATCH FOR THE CON ARTIST DO THE PAPERS REQUIRE ON YUO OWN IF YUO HAVE TO BEFORE CON SINDERING A FIRM FIND IT THE PERSON TAKING HAS THE KNOWLEGE IN FIRST PLACE ASKE FOR THEIR QULIFACTION AND WHAT COLLEGE THEY WENT TO ASKED FOR THERE PROFF OF WHAT THEY THE RIGHT PAPPER FIRST GET YOUR HEAD ROUND THE WIRING REGS THER PLENTY OF FREE PDS ONLINE GO THROUGH THEM BUILD CURUITS AND UDERSTAND THEN THE MAN INVENTED THE WEEB DID HAVE JOB NIETHER DID TESLA
PLEASE GET YOUR HAED AROUND PHYSICS OLEVEL AND MATHS YOU MUST LERN HOW TO PROGRAM BASIC SAVES ALOT OF WORK RECOMMEND SINCLAR BASIC AP PLEASE DOWNLOAD IT JOBS CENTRES WITH NEVER HELP YUO
PLEASE GET YUO HEAD RUOND 3 D PRINTING ON EBAY A 100PUOND BUILED THAT LEARN HOW USE IT IN THIS TRADE THEIRE ALOT HEADES THAT ARE NOT THERE TO HELP AND WILL BE MEST YUO UP BE WISER THAN THE PERSON WHOS DOING IT ALL OF THE TIME ANY PROBLEMS GET KNOW YUOR MP AND WRITE TO THEM JOBS CENTRE ARE THEIRE FOR THE BOSSES AND NOT YUO SO DONT BE AFFENDED OLD SAYING CROBBLERS DONT GET ANY WERE
Hey Adrian,
A great video. Myself I hold the City and Guilds level 2 and 3 2330 which I did at college whilst working alongside sparks in a construction firm. Went on to do the 17th edition.
Eventually went on to do the City and Guilds 2377-22/32 inspecting and testing of electrical equipment and management (saw them as extra tickets to have) The EAL 4337/4338 intial verification and periodic inspecting and testing. The firm I was working with at the time tendered for a local council contract and the council at the time requested all electricians working on their houses must must hold the City and Guilds 2393 (Part P) so I got put through that and then more recently the 18th edition. But before the 18th I was working in the electrical industry as an electrician working in the Domestic, Commerical and Industrial sectors for over 10 years.
Like yourself however I am also having to do the AM2 this year and my portfolio for the NVQ if I wish to get a Gold Card......
I know people who have done the NVQs and some of them all they did was get someone to take pictures of them literally posing with whatever material they needed to tick off that they had worked with ( tray and containment, SWA etc
That devalues the NVQ, as I’ve mentioned on another comment, the NVQ is about talking the talk, as well as walking the walk.
These guys that cheat have not earned their qualification.
It’s like typing in the cheat codes to skip levels on a computer game
im currently on level 3 at college and they have just told us we have to do am2 and the portfolio to be qualified. we have all paid 6k for the 3 years and now have to pay another 2k to get qualified. instructor said its a way of getting people qualified that couldn't get an apprenticeship.
What is the difference beetween a college and a training assessment Center regarding the electricians course?
This hits home with the situation I'm currently in. I did my apprenticeship nearly 20 years ago but didn't complete the final year and have been working in a company as the main electrician on site alongside an NIC QS for 15 years being responsible for training apprentices etc. I rescently applied to do my 2346 (experienced worker route) only to be rejected due to TESP changing the requirements in Sept 2023 to make my previous qualifications redundant. I'm now having to start from scratch with 20 years experience!
Currently in college doing my level 3 2365. Completed my 18th edition. Completed ECS h&s & Part P. (Certain councils require you to have part p to undertake any electrical work.. having said that it is in no way enforced as Part P is seen as a joke when compared to C&G / 18th edition qualifications) Technically, you do not need the 2391 to sign off work / installations; just need to be able to prove that you are "competent person" and registered with a governing body like the NICEIC / Napit. I know sparks that only have 18th edition and they can sign off their own / other peoples work. Having said that, i will definitely be doing my 2391 because.. why wouldn't you? If something goes wrong on an EICR you have recently submitted.. to prove you are a competent person to a court you can say i have completed the 2391 rather than saying "oh well the only trade courses i have completed that have anything to do with testing and inspection was Level 3".. It is my understanding that in the domestic sector the rules are fairly relaxed on what you need to complete installs. Whereas with industrial / commercial it is far more strict. This mainly comes down to the firms themselves requiring workers to have as many qualifications as possible so as to bring insurance costs down.. ie JIB Gold card / 2391 / NVQ Level 3. I've been told by my lecturers and from older electricians that the NVQ was a route brought in to help older electricians without any qualifications to gain them while working full time. However in the last 20 / 30 years it has been hijacked and turned into more of an apprenticeship for "school leavers" and the 2365 has reverted into the route for older learners wanting to gain qualifications. I've always been told that on paper the C&G qualifications are far more valuable than the NVQ purely because of this "portfolio" that the younger lads have to do while onsite. Apparently, it isn't actually teaching them the why/science behind what they are doing and installing which is where evening/full time college courses are more valuable. Many people have advised me that if i'm not going to work for a massive firm doing residential builds or commercial work then there is no point in doing the AM2 and getting a Gold Card. The JIB Gold card is only a ticket onto a building site with good wages but what is the point when i will be working for a small firm? You ask an NVQ electricians about the 2365 and he will say its a load of shite. And its vice versa for the 2365 guys. At the end of the day they only care about getting bums in seats and making a few quid. All depends on what you want to concentrate on in the industry.
I know this is a slightly old video but as of last year I found out I wasn't deemed an "Approved Electrician" & therefore unable to apply for an ECS gold card. From school I went straight into college, and left college with Level 3 in Electrical Installations (2330) Blame the college or blame me but, there was no emphasis on seeking out apprenticeship. First year I did an introduction course in Engineering, to help me get onto the Level 2 in Electrical Installations. No mention at the end of that year to seek an apprenticeship, so by the time I started Level 2 I was too late, firms had students in place.
Anyways I passed, brilliant. Now I'll apply "We're looking for students fresh out of School"
I pass my Level 3 and start applying, but I've no site experience.
I eventually get in with a company, some years after finishing college. I've gained qualifications along the way, done latest regs etc.. and in 2021 I pass the C&G2391. The missing piece I thought. Nope, according to ECS I'm not approved. Imagine having to tell your boss that you can't apply for a Gold card because "I'm not approved"
It's really hard to justify the price of doing the course, just to jump through a hoop the ECS have put out. I get why it's there, but surely there's a better way? Pretty fed up of jumping through hoops. You need this course and this qualification but that qualification expires in 3 years and now its new regs time, do another exam, buy another 3 book but throw those 3 books out the window in a years time because there will be an amendment.
100%
And there is a better way coming, I’ve decided that we need something that is built by electricians, for electricians
Help me make this a reality, because the current system is not fit for purpose for all the reasons you’ve described
gofund.me/9ea467da
I spent 30 years working as an electrician across 3 different company’s and had my work passed by testers
saying that my last company I worked for was only across 4 years and they told me I had to produce certification or they can’t fully employ me as an electrician even though I’d served my time 14 years with one company and 6 years with another so I went to Colege I achieved part 1 and 2 regs certificate am1 and 2391 inspecting and testing they then said I could call my self an electrician so this was like 23 years of working and in the last three of them gaining certification I then worked another 7 years doing the same work as I’ve always done
I my mind pieces of paper don’t make you a certain trade but 20 years of consistent high grade of work and learning from your elders on site in my mind I can call my self a tradesman time served
Because we live in a litical society you need to have certification to prove your competence for a defence
Really good video thanks for making it. I've seen all sides from the highly skilled with no tickets through to apprenticeship qualified but can barely wire a plug. The whole industry is a mess. There is a shortage of electricians and a rapid move towards electrical technologies in our society. But they'll never get anywhere unless this gets sorted out. I am nearly qualified via the apprenticeship route but I think I am less clear now than when I started about how the quals further quals, exams and requirements work. And there always just seems to be one more ticket with one more fee before u actually get there. No surprise. The industry needs more people like u.👍
Thank you for the kind feedback 🤝
I agree, it is in a mess and I don’t know what the answer is.
I know what you mean about always needing one more thing, or one more ticket etc.
I once went on an NICEIC solar PV course that cost around a £1000, only to be told at the end of the course that I would have to be MCS registered at a further £1000 cost, and this happened just before the feed-in tariff got cut, so within a few months all the work dried up 🤷♂️
You are qualified my friend, its not your fault that there are additional rules that have been brought in. I'm in exactly the same position as you trying to get an ECS gold card, I've been doing it for 40years but lacking a few sheets of paper.
Totally agree. I’m doing mine already 3 years got my Level 3 still missing the AM2 but as I know even with AM2 you can’t get ECS gold card. Also even with my certifications NVQ level 3 with 2391 inspection and testing couldn’t find a job. Most places they want ECS gold card
Do you think the gold card is necessary or can you get by with level 2 and 3
You do not need your gold card to get a job most companies nowadays only require that you have your 18th. I have never once been asked about my gold card but always get asked about my 18th
I stupidly didn't finish my apprenticeship I got a level 2 nvq, level 3 city and guilds. I then did 2391 off my own back like you, and I found a lot of work with that testing qualification. I have always wanted a job card even tho these days I'm in the film industry in special effects where I'm more like a controls engineer but I'm a sparky as far as anyone is concerned. Would love the gold card tho might have to just do an am2 and a silly portfolio one of these days I think there is a special course for people in this situation as it seems to be a widespread thing
Look into the CG2346 experienced worker route
The industry is a complete mess it's all about money with JIB and these other organisations.
I served my apprenticeship from 1975 to 1979 with the MOD, life was simpler then. 2 days a week I went to collage and worked the other 3. At the end of each course there were City & Guilds examinations which you either passed or failed. Having passed all 3 parts of the C&G exams I was entitled to call myself a qualified electrician. For those appentices that failed to gain all the certificates they were classed as time-served electricians but were not allowed to do inspections. Life was so much simpler then. Today you need plough through miles of red tape just to put on a plug top.
When a person can prove many years of experience working for reputable companies, specialised in electrical installation or electrical plant maintenance, or has a proven track record in a complex electrical environment can prove they have had relevant training, hold 18th edition regs qualification, hold 2391-52, they are legally qualified, legally skilled. AM2 is a cert from a specific organisation, which also has to follow the 18th edition regs, and it has to follow a 2391 type qualification. Their are plenty of AM2 qualified persons who do horrific work, they may hold the AM2 cert but do unqualified work. A excellent installation may just need to be inspected and tested, being qualified to test and inspect is specifically 2391, doesn't mean you need to do the installation. Qualified has Many meanings. Going around saying an experienced professional isn't qualified just because they don't hold AM2 is ludicrous because AM2 is only one of many qualifications. Holding a 2010 AM2 shows a person has completed an assessment doesn't prove they are up to date nor prove they are currently capable of working to latest standards.
Well said Adrian. Like you I went to college through my own accord to help get a job as an electrician. Soon after I started a job as a domestic installer. This was with a person who had done the same as you level 2 and level 3. When I completed my level 3 I left for a bigger company to find out which road I wanted to go down as an electrician. This was a industrial company which done installation/maintenance in process plants. Once again no problem no mention. 3 years ago I applied for a job in mining looking for some excitement. This is were I found out that I haven't completed my NVQ or done my AM2. The agreement of employment was that I would become an experienced apprentice and complete both the NVQ and AM2. This was a shock at first but a no brainer as they were willing to pay the fees and give me a decent wage but still not a qualified wage. It took me 2 years to complete the NVQ with portfolio which I found a waste of time. The assessor was useless as what I was doing was not something he had knowledge in, my job in mining been not very common. I completed the AM2 last year but had to go back and do more as they had left a unit out "no kidding " I have not got a gold card or do I have 18th edition as mining has its own regs. I found the whole ordeal very confusing and hard to find information. I know less sparks who did there NVQ and AM2 then didn't. Brilliant competent sparks much better then myself. You are the first person I know to actually question the system. Well done.
How did you check to find out you had not got the right credentials?
Sparksafe LTP is more thorough at checking qualifications 👌
@@Pure_electrical_training cheers
It is all about the money
I was trained many years ago as an " electrician" pre AM2, in the last 10 years i have added Gas and Fgas to my qualifications.
It was only when i had to do a resit of my Gas qualifications, after 5 years, that the new college pointed out i had a key ticket missing from my "list of gas qualifications" so i had been carrying out some elements of gas work illegaly, Clearly i was not too chuffed as the first college i relied upon to know which tickets i needed for the type of work i wanted to do missed this important element. Neither my re-sit college, nor myself can fathom why i was allowed to be a qualified non-domestic gas engineer without one key ticket and even though i had been fully checked and completed my probabtion period with gas safe it still went un-noticed. I just think it is now way too complicated for any agency to work out what tickets are needed, hence the confusion.
Anyway - it was a good video and i am sure you have all the necessary experience and knowledge to carry out safe practices.
All the best for the future.
Exactly 🤝
Had a very similar experience . I did the city and guilds 2330 . I was told when I started that once I had finished my 3.5 years of night school that I would be qualified.
I did the am2 and passed and thought it was all done.
Then on the handshake day I was told that I had to do my nvq (oh and did we mention we have a company that does this for 2k) .
I put myself through this but it left a bitter taste in my mouth .
Snap I had the same back in 2006, crap starts at the top unfortunately with it being run like the mafia 🙃
I served my time in the early 60s. It was a 5 year apprenticeship. City and guilds was 3 levels A B C. C being the highest grade. This was before JIB ratings, which were set by your employer. So whatever he said was taken as gospel. The level of certification these days amazes me. You almost get a certificate for putting a plug top on.
Am I qualified ? I really don't know. My depth of knowledge is vast, BUT unproveable. This video has opened a whole can of worms for all of us. My initial qualifications are well dated by now, although I've done later regs updates and inspection and testing updates.
Thanks for the video, very thought provoking
Take a look at this, it might help you make a decision.
For someone of your ability it should be a breeze
www.electricalcareers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/TESP-England-Route-4-Experienced-Worker-Assessment.pdf
I've got the same qualifications as you, there was no am2 when I left college in 1989, I've been running My own business for 25 years and been in the business 36. I work in heavy industry, prisons, schools etc. But my son who's a 21yo sparky is more qualified than me. 🤔
Makes a mockery of the system
Not true you have all those years of experience. But you were possibly mislead in your education & qualifications at the time.
Am2 has been around since 1987, I did mine the first year it came out.
Adrian.
Some very interesting points there mate.
Ive been in the trade for 41 years, am I qualified? ... technically qualified?... Don't know , unlikely to be honest.
I did a full 4.5 year apprenticeship along with block release to college throughout...
At the end of the day, if you have the experience and consider yourself concientous to do the job properly, just crack on..
I have met hundreds of sparks throughout my time and some " Qualified " ones are absolutely shit tradesmen, others who are " Unqualified " are superb.
Thanks again for raising a very valid point.
All the best Gw.
Thank you 🤝
I had the exact same problem as your self I went down the experienced worker route in the end did the portfolio and the AM2 finally got my jib gold card approved electrician it took ten years all because I wasn't given the correct information at the beginning of the course
I feel your pain, thank god you got there in the end 👏
I feel your pain, thank god you got there in the end 👏
I’m currently going through the same issue.mine is a plumbing cert,I carried out the whole course which was the best part of three years on day release.my final exams was two weeks long practical/theory and on completing the final exam the teacher tells me I have passed and am now qualified and I will get my cert in around two weeks.cert arrives two weeks later and work in the industry for around 10 years then JIB system comes in so I send off cert and JIB tell me it’s not full cert as it should have a red line but mine has a blue line.I went back to the college and all teachers have left as 10 years have passed.Ended up at C&G showed my course work and they said I completed course but didn’t know how to resolve it.I even asked what do you have to do to get a blue line on the cert and they didn’t know that either.
What a joke, we need to get everyone to stand together and highlight this huge problem that still exists
I’m currently on a probation period with my employer as they want the full certificate,I have shown the cert to a teacher in a local college and he has said my cert should have the red line as I passed in feb 2004 and portfolios started if you started the course 2003.I’m hoping when I can actually show the teacher my completed course work he can hopefully just sign something off so I get the full cert.C&G said take my completed work to a course and get it mapped against current course which is a lot less work apparently and hopefully it gets passed.what have you been told Adrian?
I had a similar experience, but realised straight after we finished the 2360 part 2!! So I did my 2391 and nvq 3 which got me the jib gold approved card. I could have been much clearer that the 2360 alone was not the full ticket!
hold 236-1 part 1 electrical instasions work part2 eleectrical installations work am the suplentry cerofacate electrical in st ation work full city and guild full crtifacaetes the problem is the nvq system and they dived in to levels i hold am1 open accsess did the am2 openacccsess FIAL IT AS I had NEVER ANY support for that and then BEEN blockED FROM doing AM2 the for 25 years and fed up WITH THEM thiere pushing nqs ON ME i dOnt need. done all THE ORIGINA; QUALIFACATIONS on MY OWN ON benifit no accses to aperntashipps its a bit of joke now ther pushing an nvqS there on me t do NEED ONLY REQURE the am2
origaly yuo GOT thw city AND GUILS IFYUO GOT GOT THRE AM1 AND AM2 YUO GOT THE NVQ3 BECAUSE THE PROBLEMS WITH TTHE AM2 CETRES THEY TRASHED MY ORIGANAL NVQ 3 ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????
I’m just doing my evening classes in electrical installations level 2 at the moment and didn’t find out till afterwards that I had to do the Am2 as well. I thought it was just level 2, then level 3 and I’m fully qualified.
Im still gonna go ahead with it, but even when trawling through the city and guilds website, it’s hard to find a definitive answer on what EXACTLY the qualification route is to be considered as fully qualified. I also think that employers don’t understand what it means to be fully qualified either. As lots of them will just state either ‘ 17th or 18th edition electrician ‘ or ‘ qualified in electrical installations ‘ ....
Top bloke
It’s so confusing isn’t it.
Maybe this will help www.electricalcareers.co.uk/joining-the-industry/training-routes/
Admittedly there is much confusion in this trade today, its all about training providers becoming cash cows, IMO part p in domestic installations has messed this industry up big time, when I started my apprentership there was no sector/division domestic, industrial, domestic installer. (what the hells that all about)
There are many routes into becoming an Electrician today. IMO if you get accepted in any CPS they take your money, in their eyes your qualified Gold card be dammed.
You can have as many certificates as long as your arm, with no practical experience they are as good as useless.
Agree 🙌
Thanks Adrian as ever for an honest informative video...
My comments come from the background of an eternal student who has a teaching background and done many courses electrical/construction and non construction....
I have sat in many classes and even after 15 years of courses and experience as a multi skilled i can say I have good handskills and knowledge but I don't actually feel qualified at anything.... problems I've seen from a teaching point of view
1. City and guilds courses became less and less practical, more and more theory and health and safety, that were not really applicable to site work
2. The loss of genuine apprenticeships, 90% of people on the courses had no apprenticeship, doing the course meant they couldn't work. The way you describe doing night courses (I did the 2330 that way) seems to have ended
3. Teaching in construction, for a number of reasons not the greatest. Teachers many years off site, and low moral in further education establishments, lads onsite not really wanting to pass on their knowledge/skills, at worst undermining the learners confidence.
4. Finally the am2, and niciec registration maybe raising standards but it's also providing social blocks to people being able to be electricians. The non academic person, the finance needed if not with a supportive apprenticeship..... very difficult as I have found....
I have no easy answers, old school training, old apprenticeships (I met these lads from the 60s/70s apprenticeships) if you could physically/mentally survive them...their knowledge and skill level with a lifetime of work behind them was/is second to none....if I lived 3 lifetimes I could never match them......
Just my experiences/thoughts hope this adds to the discussion....
Thank you for joining in the debate Will 🙌
Wow. This totally applies to me! Except I’ve been passing my self off as an electrical engineer for 36 years!
Hi I did a similar route as you, the AM 2 was not around or if it was then I’d not herd of it. I went to college to get my City & Guilds like you 1 day 2 nights, my teacher asked why I was doing this as I’d never be able to work on sites as I did not follow the apprenticeship route. . My answer was I’m going to work for my self 3 years later got my City & Guilds I did free work to gain practical experience over the 3 year period.
Once I had my City & Guilds qualifications I applied for membership of the NICEIC and was examined on site and inspected and passed and was inspected for the next 10 years. As far as I was concerned I was a qualified electrician with high standards.
I can see the amount of paperwork now and extra regulations now required for installations.
I live in Thailand now and still do a bit of Electrics for friends, my NICEIC Inspector would die if he seen the standards here.
Just found your video and Subscribed.
Yes I hold my hands up did not go the apprenticeship route.
Was an interesting video, watching your other vids now.
Thank you for taking the time to watch the video and get involved.
My situation is particularly annoying because there are modules missing from my CG 2360 part 1&2 qualification.
I don’t know why they are missing as I never missed a day, and I went with my best friend at the time and he got all of his.
I’ve since found out that I am not alone and that college, as well as others are notorious for cost cutting and incompetence, and people like me have been left high and dry.
Ocourse if you go by the IET or the JIb you wouldn’t be classed as an Electrician till you pumped your hard earned money into their pockets for a lucky bag style card
I had pay £48 for abit of plastic..
Well said, Last September at the age of 45 I started college to retrain to be an electrician, so first year passed, about to enrol on the level 3 course, and there is some confusion to what I need to do next, I know I need the portfolio, then AM2, but why don't City and Guilds come up with a course that states, Year 1 you will learn this, Year 2 you will learn this, Year 3 to 4 you need so many hours of work experience, and you need to so evidence of the following list of work that you have carried out. Then you need to complete the AM2. To have the college that offers the level 2 and 3 parts of the course to also carry out the portfolio element then fair enough use the current AM2 assessment centres, that would make more sense to me, also have one course, so everyone is at the same standard at the point of passing AM2, then people could then upskill to specialize for example to do EV chargers, Solar PV etc
100%
I would love to see a comment from the E Fixx guys, who should know about this.
I think they have done video and said essentially only AM2 Gold Card is fully qualified.
Personally in a Plumber by trade, this video had me checking all of my City & Guilds qualifications. Thanks for sharing awareness!
You are more than welcome 🤝
Really sorry to hear your in this predicament. Unfortunately this still goes on throughout the country, it's going to happen with the domestic installer courses. This will carry on where funding pots is available for lower level courses, colleges use people wanting to undertake such courses just to make.
Thanks for the video couldn't agree more why so many routes? and its becoming so confusing
Can you explain what you can do after you get the qualifications all the different routes you can take
I’ve been thinking about that today
You explain it very well and bring up some important issues.
I went on a apprenticeship back in 1975 and it was the city & guilds A course 3 years, then the city & guilds B course 2 years, then i went on to the city & guilds C course 2 years.
Today its all over the place and very confusing and messy!! And sadly all about making money!!
I have just retired, thank goodness.
I’ve heard those A,B and C courses were tough, so Kudos to you.
People these days would probably just give up
I,m fully qualified electrician, with all current paperwork, part p etc , gave it all up during lockdown, started delivery parcels, now have people
Delivering for me , made far more money than I ever did out of electrical work. It seems the easy road pays way better.
Hi mate, i found out a few weeks ago i am in the same boat, i called ECS for my gold card, i done my part 1+2 16th 2391 between 1999-2001, my college lecturer told us this course was higher and better course than JIB courses, and i have 17th and 18th and been told i an not a qualified electrician, i also have been a NIC qualified supervisor for 2 years now, and been told by ECS i have to go back to college and resit all the courses again over a 2 year period and then do the am2 to get my gold card, i think its so ridiculous we have gone through all this to find out we have been lied too. I hope we can get to the bottom of this.
I can’t even find my certificates any more from years ago. But still fine.
Top man respect to you their needs a different route to obtain level 3 rather than a portfolio
I agree 🙌
I’ve just been collating all my photo evidence from the last 5 years on the tools and I’ve got over 5000 photos across a wide range of jobs.
Domestic, commercial and industrial.
But, I cannot use any of them for evidence because I’m not in them 🤷♂️
Luckily as I done my apprenticeship through a government funded training provider (JTL) I was never misled and knew from day 1 I had to complete my NVQ and sit my AM2 to qualify for my gold card
How did you find the whole experience, was it smooth and trouble free?
Only problem with JTL was their handling of the logbooks back in 2004. They were awful.
I had Ian Russell who lost my logbook and tried to get me to do it all again.
@@Pure_electrical_training I had a training officer when I started who didn’t have a clue what he was doing but other than that I haven’t had any issues with JTL. Covid caused a huge back log for them and they’re like 1/2 years behind so what was a 4/5 year apprenticeship has now turned into a 6/7 year but that isn’t JTLs fault
@@pinkmist6810 Log book? Don’t think I had to do anything like this
I did my nvq level 3 with jtl trying to get ecs card now to get on sites and there saying it’s the wrong cert 😩
Just seen your video on qualifications just to clarify did you qualify in 2002 because that's roughly when I 'qualified' I did the City n guilds 2360 level 2 and 3 and the nvq level 2 and 3, I completed my portfolio.
I did my 2391 and my regs. I had it confirmed before I finished the course at that point in time they did away with the am2 this is what I was told by South Kent college I was enrolled on the jib scheme as an approved electrician and am now an approved electrician with the ecs scheme and a recognised qs with the niceic, by the sounds of things your the same as me only difference is you did the evening corse I did the full time corse for my first year then 1 day release due to an apprenticeship.
Try and double check for yourself before you do your am2,.
Hope this helps.
This was the same in the 80's 2 routes available btec or City and guilds we went down the btec onc/hnc route just theory with a few practicals but City and guilds had installation and practical work for domestic electricians our was more industrial
Good on you for your honesty, integrity and work ethic. Just about to move into the industry and it is a mine field!
Be careful which route you take
www.electricalcareers.co.uk/joining-the-industry/training-routes/
I have serious doubts about the quality of work of some so called qualified electricians. Especially some that do EICRs snd find loads of unnecessary work to make more money.
What I don’t understand is collage they teach testing / exams and principle of it. At work I’m testing constantly, on my AM2 I have to test to pass the exam. But.... the 2391 I’d have to pay 1K and miss 5 days from work to learn about testing and inspection. Fair enough there’s EICR’s as it is abit more in-depth but why can’t there be a separate course for this only. (I think there used to be) Confused 🤷🏻♂️
Your employer should legally pay for all your training, unless they don’t need you to have the qualification.
If that were the case, maybe they might cut you a deal
Unfortunately this is what people need to hear to stop what's going on
I agree
In thinking about the implications about this, it would be good if it didn't matter to be honest as like has been said there will be some clowns out there fully qualified but incapable of safely doing anything! Contrary to popular belief plant operating has no legislative requirement for a ticket, only that you have received information, instruction and training. Obtaining insurance would be tricky though!
Unfortunately C&G really muddy the water with the inconsistent appearance and breakdown of the separate portions to the qualification. I have the same spattering of partial certificates for aspects of the qualification. When I went through in 2002 I was graded by the JIB and have a copy of the confirmation of my grading as proof I achieved what was required. I also keep up to date even though I've been off the tools for a while. What frustrates me is anyone, regardless of background, can attend the and be awarded the 2382-18 course. Why???
Money
The line "qualified" is a very odd one. As all you technically need to prove is competentcy for almost all situations. If you want a jib gold card then yes you may need to do your am2 but do you need a gold card. I do find it odd that there are companies out there providing courses claiming to be a spark in "6 weeks" when the only useful bit of paper you are left with is your 18th which could be done in a 3 days course. There are plenty of sparks out there who don't have all the bits of paper and are great sparks and there are guys who have don't a 5 year apprenticeship got all the bits of paper and produce shocking work. The cps should be far more strict on work completed and if you fail you should be struck off and that should be public info. Unfortunately it all just a money making exercise and people go round fleecing the public who are even more confused about who is and who isn't a spark
You can get a gold card in 15 weeks now too and another online company will fill out your NVQ over the phone ‘holistically’ 🤢
www.ableskills.co.uk/electrician-training-courses/jib-gold-card-electrical-training-course/
Mate I'm in the same boat. Did 3 years at Brighton city college from 2011 to 2014. I didn't get a single certificate even though I eventually passed everything. Paid £1200 a year even though I started on £50 a day working in London at the age of 33. When I finally finished the 3 years I assumed I'd get a certificate but got nothing. I carried on working on-site as a mate and never questioned it and then became a BMS commissioning engineer at 40 and didn't need to do the am2. However, now I need to renew my ECS card and they've changed the process. I need to upload my city and guilds cert in order to book my health and safety exam but of course, I didn't actually get one. I've been working on site for over 10 years now and never had an issue booking my health and safety exam. I can do yet another course at £150 and then take the ECS exam to get my card to enable me to work on site but the first booking is in June and my card runs out in April. I approached Brighton city college asking for my certificate but they told me I failed the course. 3 years of night college 3 times a week after working in London all day for fk all. The course was an absolute shambles. The tutors didn't have a clue what was going on either. Our only saving grace was our theory teacher Jim. He was shocked at our lack of knowledge after TWO YEARS. He basically taught us 3 years in 1 year and we passed. But nothing to show for it.
We should get everyone together that is in this situation and bring a legal action against the training companies
The qaulfercation you mentioned at the end of the video are new they came in with the part p compitant person sceem in 2014 ,
Don't worry about it you are qualified remember the regs and napit and the JIB and all the others are not law they have no legal rights to say who is qualified or not it clearly states in the regs book that the regs are not mandatory therefore they are not law. Also it is not a legal requirement to join the NICEIC jib or Napit they make up rules to suit themselves and charge there members an extortionate fees the JIB are nothing more than a trade union as are the NICEIC and Napit, one big scam
I bumped into your video looking for information about how NVQ work and I can’t believe that the same happened to me.
I finished (or thought I finished) an NVQ Level 2 in Pharmacy Service Skills 5 years ago and just today I found out that what I have is only a few units and credits but not enough for the full certificate.
It’s crazy because for years I’ve been adding this certificate to my CV and I’ve been working in Pharmacy for more than 6 years now. I feel cheated too. It’s so frustrating.
Because I work for the NHS it is a requirement for my role as a supervisor to get this certificate so I have to enrol back again in the course to finish whatever units I need to finish 🤦🏾♀️
I feel your pain and it is a huge problem in the training industry, I hope you get it sorted 🤞
Yes! Done a 4 year apprenticeship and have 18 years experience. I dont need to pay a governing body to tell me i am competent 🤣🤣🤣
Great video Adrian really appreciate it...I jave completed my C&G Level 2&3 2365 in Electrical Installation, 18th Edition aswell. I never believed I was a qualified Electrician after doing these courses it was alway about making money for the colleges and the lectures were just salesmen selling you hope.
I do not have much practical experience but did pretty well on the course. I hope to do my portfolio and AM2 but I am only currently working in a maintenance role, so not sure what to do.
Hey. I'm in the exact same boat as you. What did you end up doing. Wanna chat about it?
It was made clear to me when I started the route to qualify in 2013 it’s Level 1, 2 & 3 if you don’t have an apprenticeship. Then do your portfolio and am2 and you’re qualified! That’s the route I took, was around 4 years! Been qualified for 2 years now, want to do the 2391, but it’s £1400!! Money grabbing bastards!!
To do what we do, should be worth it with all the CPD we have to do, the money we have to lay out, but our wages have dropped below every other trade due to the dilution of our industry.
It’s a sad state of affairs
I consider myself a qualified electrician but have never heard of an AM2? Maybe because I started back in 1976 as a 16 year old industrial electrical apprentice - day release / night school etc. I don’t suppose my 2:1 honours degree in Electrical and Electronic engineering makes me any more qualified.
Hi Adrian, taking AM2 next week. 1 question on the certs, zdb or zsdb a measurement is to be written. This area has always been vague and I can never get a definitive answer.
Ze, simple enough, Zs end point of circuit, great.
Zdb (Zsdb) though, as far as I’m aware this is taken for sub boards and N/A would be written if the board is supplied from the origin at the meter.
But other tutors state take the measurement, leaving the main earth connected and breakers on thus EFLI of the whole installation including the external side.
If this is the case I would assume as a live test bonding conductors left connected.
So what must I display on the EIC ?
The industry is a joke
It can be so simple if there is one course to be an electrician
There are lots of unqualified people out there
In my opinion the collage had a duty of care to provide the education you enrolled for them to supply. They were responsible for ensuring your qualifications were valid & informing you of any shortfall in the course & directing you through the maze of modules they provided. So you left qualified as you rightfully expected to be. You paid to be trained by this college & they had a duty to supply what you paid for.
I recall the IEE as it once was; now the IET changing their recognised education requirements in the early 80's which MUST HAVE RESULTED in students completing courses which were previously resulted in recognised qualifications being no longer recognised. In those days there was the C&G, ONC, HNC & degree courses which were recognised. Then they started modularising these courses resulting in not being qualified unless you completed ALL the modules & possibly a final module like yourself. Or stipulating other limitations to appear more valuable than they were.
In the 80's the IEE at the time stated unless you did this course, at that university or college your qualification would not be recognised by the IEE/IET. Around the late 70's, 1979 they gained royal ascent to make the institute more politically powerful. Then the free courses/grants stopped & education became a business. To the point now students are shelling out £1000's for in some cases, possibly more poor education, because it became a machine to make money.
There is a whole generation of engineers & technicians who are very competent, who were deceived by the so called professional establishment & education system because of their abuse of position & power over decades.
I’ve never had and never will have a gold card. So don’t get why you can’t get work. There’s loads out there. Aren’t you NICEIC?
You cant get on any site now without a ECS card !
I agree with you, i have just finished the course in October & i have finished my 2391 inspection & Testing beside all the other qualifications & there are much left to do that i was not aware of! The NVQ, AM2, PRTFOLIO! So many roots & you don't know the difference! Its a shame