Don't forget that after saying "I'd love to see what you will do differently" "When I beat you, we'll see what you have to say" He said he wasn't being arrogant and he was playing for fun :)
Tbh I played both dcs and a lot of others and it just depends on the information YOU can process At the end of the day you both have different approaches to these things so you really truly can't compare a dcs main to idk an Arma 3 main two entirely different games but you can use some of the same concepts in them I don't agree with you but I also do and if you look at one of growls videos he challenged an actual f/a 18 super hornet pilot so idk but you not wrong but your not right either
Watching growling sidewinder has made me 100% better at warthunder Sim. People are taking the wrong information from him if they are comparing plane to plane. The more skills I took were decision making at different energy states, tactics in the merge, and watching nose behavior to decide how to maneuver. The things that translate across flight Sims are still relevant in both games.
I play vtol and not only are his vids just fun to watch but it has made me 10000 times better at vtol. IMO it's just a game and its not that deep, watch it if you find it entertaining.
its worse still when DCS players make no separation between DCS the video game and real life plane performance. It is a video game, no plane in that game is 1:1 with its real counterpart. I have unironically seen DCS players think they can beat real life fighter pilots in dogfights in real planes.
Bruh, ik, had someone say the m2k can out rate the f16 in dcs, and in dcs I did some reaearhrhe f16 under performs in dcs by 1.5° and the m2k has almost no drag despite being a delta so its energy bleed is better than the hornets (it bleeds less energy than the hornet some how) and the fact they say its 1 to 1 is laughable, I then go and try and find flight characteristics from the manual of these aircraft and make sure they are declassified, I found out that the m2k with 50% fuel and two fox 2's at 5k feet, it sustained 12° I got 15° in war thunder and in dcs they got 14° meaning if fuel conditions were at 2000 pounds of fuel with a clean configuration the m2k wouldn't even be able to sustain 20° at its optimal corner speed at the deck.
while they might be good at dogfighting depending on what aircraft theyre trained to fly. its not really the skill of being able to dogfight, as in the tactics and maneuversm, but their stamina, that lets them win. video games also dont include like 80% of what actual combat actualy consists of but if you put a guy who plays a dcs f16 in a real f16 vs another real f16 pilot the dcs player will lose because he will black out or get disorinted by actually flying. but if te battle happens in DCS the DCS pilot might as well win its not like theres a secret way pilots fly in the dogfight. tho in a dogfight anything can happen in real life i mean theres proof of f22 lossing vs way "worse" dogfighters. and so can stuff happen in a controled environment called dcs. same can be said about bvr combat in dcs the dcs player can win because he plays a game he games a game. he´d be fucked in real combat though.
@@yujinhikita5611 research here hasn't been made, yes an real pilot vs a dcs pilot the dcs pilot will lose, but that's because irl pilots are trained differently and also are showed when to be aggressive, patient and spot weakness, meanwhile the 80% part of what you said is simply un true, dcs is 80% accurate not 1 to 1 sure, but it's good, war thunder is 70% to 50% at times, look at the f16c, its 80% accurate both in dcs and war thunder when you limit the f16c to only 9G's in wa thunder, its shockingly close to dcs's f16c. I even check the manual and found out what it sustained in war thunder and then compered it. As I said, you haven't done your research or testing. Your an rb player, so you don't bother.
@@WOLFER. it isnt all models that have poor flight models, for example the tomcat and viggen and really any module made by HEATBLUR my beloved has an absolutely stellar flight model, it is only the shitty models made by companies like razbam or ED themselves
I enjoy GS. As an Ex Army pilot I truly enjoy the AH64 missions. He is very accurate in his assessment and capabilities of that aircraft. The issue I have on the Apache is with DCS and the lack of a millimetric radar but I am sure they will update that soon. GS works within the boundaries of DCS and often says the real capabilities of an aircraft are often classified so it's a guess by DCS. The real pilots he brings in on occasions add realism and confirm much of what he says. He is often self deprecating and humble. He is a competent and knowledgeable pilot within the realm of DCS and claims to be nothing else.
I actually think it’s kinda hilarious watching GS fly ANY helicopter in DCS, because he’s so terrible at it compared to his fixed-wing proficiency. Sorta like the rest of us. I’ve never been able to master helicopters, because they just don’t respond the way you “expect” them to, i.e. the way a fixed-wing craft does. More practice, i guess.
I think you have to take GS for what he is: a very proficient player of DCS. He never makes claims that any of this translates into the real world, but he obviously studies up on the capabilities and weaknesses of all the planes he flies DCS. I would say a lot of novices have learned a few things watching his vids.
Yeah I don’t think the criticism of GS is fair honestly, even though you prefaced the discussion with a disclaimer that this wasn’t really about him. I gave up WT years ago because of the grind but the mentality you mention (manuals or clueless youtubers being perceived as more important than just in-game experience) had been around for a long time even before I joined, and that was during the Dora malice! I remember people complaining about certain planes performing this or that way according to youtubers who played the game off-handedly, or memoirs by pilots, as if that indicated how to play whatever implementation was in the game. This is not on GS, but a consequence of diving deeper into this kind of ’mechanic deep’ games in general, where this toxic mentality tends to arise
@@AankerStoneshield i agree, this stuff has been going on for long sice before GS was popular, and the same arguments will be made long after the game is gone. the reality is that its just a game and it doesnt really matter that much. Think about it this way, in the coming years, warthunder will run out of stuff to add and/or people will move on, and the game wont exist anymore. all this argument about spall liner this, bias that, x vehicle should have y weapon, ect is really getting old. the fact that people are willing to go to federal prison for leaking documents says a lot about this community. to me, theres a lot bigger issues with the community than people acting like they know things when they dont. i say this as someone who has ~7k hours in game.
He is dogshit at DCS. I know someone who has personal experience flying with him. Hes a massive scam. He flies with G-effects off, and he stages most if not all of his videos.
There are a few things that resonated with me. 1) The big difference between people who try to memorize information vs the people who practice execution to build knowledge. With so much information being available in many different mediums (YT, PDFs, forum posts, redidt, etc) it becomes really easy for people to think they are practicing by consuming this information but in reality they just are collecting useless information that they don't understand and can't execute on. I always tell people that being directionally correct is okay just as long as the information is ACTIONABLE. It doesn't help that half the information in videos are BS. 2) The race to post content is a really toxic thing that the platforms/RUclips has pushed onto people. I feel bad for some of the big youtubers where their livelihood is to try to just push out the same dogwater videos over and over again. This doesn't excuse them posting stuff that is straight up wrong but I can understand why they get caught up doing it. 3) WT recycling DCS videos to me seems natural but as someone who has spent a lot time in DCS, I warn people. DCS players, IMHO, should not really be looked up to. In general, I have found that DCS players are very poor in PVP scenarios compared to IL-2 or WT players. They get into a circle jerk about memorizing information that isn't actionable 90% of the time and they get off splashing a gen 2 plane with a f-18. These are the same players who get absolutely ran over by players when they get caught in a merge.
People do really forget it's just a video game that you just have so much passion for that you gaslight yourself into believing that it's the real deal The amount of duels where they do wide circles to "2-circle" and tbh they all are shit at prop-tiers like its truly delusional to think that you can beat a spitfire in a p47 by muh "2-circle" fight, it just doesnt necessary apply to air rb or warthunder in general Waiting for your thoughts about the dcs trailer of 2024 and beyond lol
1.) Agree on point number one. Nothing to add here. 2.) I think this is more of a RUclips wide issue that probably isn't limited to just WarThunder stuff. But WarThunder is the small pond that I play in so it's especially noticeable. 3.) I think it's less about recycling DCS content into War Thunder and more about copying aesthetics that have been proven to work regardless of whether or not the information is accurate. As far as player skill goes...I don't play enough DCS to know one way or the other. From what I have seen that there are a few players that cross over between both games and end up being very knowledgeable about both. But there are also a considerable number of people that are fiercely loyal to one game or the other...or are so over-informed that they are insufferable. For instance I had a guy argue with me months ago that the WarThunder F-14A was better in a dogfight than the MiG-29 at the time simply because the turn rate was higher. On paper he is correct...in practice the setup for the F-14A was fairly difficult and while the MiG-29 could win initial turns, was very close in rate, and could also just win with power to weight ratio as well. Also at the time the F-14 ran so nuclear hot in game that just eating R-60M from front was realistic possibility even with pre-flaring. When I offered him a chance to test it out against me he refused because I was just a toxic duelist that was just chasing clout. And these kind of conversations are pretty common within WarThunder...where things get boiled down to pure hypotheticals and a lot of people have more experience arguing over what they would do and how they would win... instead of actually just doing it.
@@squishface80085 I guess my reaction to your point in#3 is I feel like it doesn't really matter. The crime that we all know is that War Thunder has an encyclopedic level of coverage of aircraft and the majority of time is all spent in the same sort of lobbies doing the same scenario over and over again with just a different colored map existing below. These sort of hypotheticals of what beats what in a sterile and controlled 1vs1 are just a fool errands to argue over IMHO. I feel this way because I know these sort of hypotheticals rarely ever happen in real play. We all know that a non-trivial amount of 1vs1s just end with a third party getting involved. This sort of focus is just the same sort of focus of people trying to cram useless information in their head. What is more actionable to know is how to fight and survive with 20 other people on the map because this is what you end up being in most of the time in war thunder. DCS is not immune to this either. There are channels in DCS that spend a significant amount of time talking about fights that are artificially made like in a lab. They are sterile 1vs1s but these sort of fights almost never happen organically where there is a truly equal merge with fresh planes. Fights happen organically, from different angles, different fuel amounts, different weapon mixes, etc. This is why I have personally focused my channel on purely organic fights because that is where the magic happens and where you have to understand the situation you are in and not just the plane because the context plays into the fight.
@@Enigma89 I think I should have clarified that these conversations usually start in the context of random battles and shifts towards the 1 v 1 just because the even the premise that is being made is not even true in a sterile context. My channel tends to be multi-faceted. I show gameplay that is against random but I also practice 1v1 against players that I know that are good so that I can challenge myself and have a better understanding for exactly how much I can get away with in random matches. I do both because I find both to be fun.
Actually considering your Cold War DCS focus, you can make the analogy that most DCS players are like the USAF in early Vietnam. They think they are the best and most "educated" in theories and capabilities they think they are great pilots slinging missiles from 40 miles away on some poor SOD. But they never actually flew the jet. And the people whom are good at flying the jet are the poor folks that couldn't afford a proper module and fly the lower developed modules but actually put time in learning to fly said jets and kicking the asses of the smug "educated" pilots
Most of us DCS players are chill and want more people to get into DCS and grow the community. There's perfectionist and tryhards in every community, but that shouldn't stop people from enjoying things.
I think the biggest misinformation is that a certain aircraft is either a one circle or two circle one when you should be utilising both methods depending on the energy difference between aircraft. An Su-27 will easily rate fight an F-16 if it goes into the merge 100 knots faster despite being a “one circle” fighter. Same goes the other way, the F-16 will easily turn inside the Su-27 in this situation despite being a “rate” fighter. With some aircraft the difference in performance is so small that the energy state and fuel/weapons load is the only deciding factor.
The biggest misinformation, in my mind, is that one circle and two circle BFM is an actual "tactic" for use in *any* game, simulator, or even real air combat. There's a reason we have another term: ACM, or air combat manuevering. You learn BFM because it gives you a foundation to understand the geometry of air combat. You practice BFM so that you learn to recognize the visual cues of that geometry. You fly BFM against an instructor or practice partner who is flying with the purpose of teaching you, not killing you by any means possible! There are no one-circle fighters, two-circle fighters, turn fighters, vertical fighters, or B&Z fighters. There is only one kind of fighter: the energy fighter.
A non-zero number of flight sim content creators have videos where they talk the talk and say accurate-sounding jargon and literally nothing what they are narrating even matches what's happening on the screen
People need to understand that DCS and WT plays completely differently, and majority of the turn GS plays against AI. (Although it is entertaining and I do enjoy his content and always have.) and I have learned new tactics from his videos which id never thought of doing back when I wasn’t all that good. (Also it was my birthday yesterday!!)
@@No1harris_98 can’t disagree, in these vids he just shows some tactics that also can be applied against real players in DCS but that will req 2 teams with at least 2 good players that will cooperate with each other in both teams so with bots that’s much easier to record especially because bots in DCS are not that bad
What i dont understand is why people compare WT to DCS. Theyre both completely different in purpose and neither is perfect. I dont think we can blame GS for any of this either, those types of people that bash either side existed way before GS took off.
Bruh 😂, the only place the su-27 is competitive in is in a nose to nose fight (very close) but I gotta have the link on where he said "it can out rate and out one circle the gripen" the flanker series can not rate fight to save their life. The best sustained I got from the su-27 and j-11 was on average 16° to 18° which is horrible btw. To be competitive in a rate fight you need to have 20° or even higher.
problem with WT is that its 100% or nothing on the elevator so you cant actually conserve energy to be in the pefect rate neither can you sustain 9g for the amount of time you need, to come around and get the shot. this makes almost every fgiht a one circle.
@@yujinhikita5611 that's not true, in sim, you have stick discipline, you can sustain 9G's and preserve energy, but I'm guess your an rb player so that's why your saying that.
@daeveddd7140 ik, but saying its not possible to sustain is bs, it can be done, rb players just need to realise full real controls allow to truly do whatever you want with an aircraft.
I see this shit alot with people throwing around terms and ideas with no actual consideration for how that shit translates in game. Im sorry but in the war thunder community, Aero turtle in particular is the best example of this, with him trying to teach you "techniques" and skills that will never translate well or be practical 90% of the time. It feels like he wants war thunder to be DCS so bad but itsnjust not and he cant get iver that somehow.
I've been having the same feeling as you and i'm glad i'm not the only one feeling this way, i understand those term exist for a reason and need to be used, but most people use them without really knowing what it mean and mostly to just sound smart. Growling Sidewinder community is composed of mostly experienced pilot that will understand what he's speaking about, but most of war thunder player are just casual, and so no need for those overcomplicated term.
i think dumbing GS content down to just dogfights is a bit unjust, he does alot more stuff, yes dogfights is the cornerstone of his channel but he mainly just makes fun entertaining videos. The issue is just stupid people thinking that his videos are exactly what its like irl. Yes he does give some good insight to the basics of BVR but again his channel is mainly for entertainment of the masses.
I think you might have misunderstood what I said. When I compared Growling Sidewinder to dogfights...I was talking about a TV show that aired on the History Channel in like the early 2000s who's whole focus was historical air combat. It was a good TV show.
Real life flight performances are obviously classified, despite the fact some guys claimed that they have « sekrit dokuments »… And in fact, nobody want to really know how a real dogfight between an F-22 and a Su-30Sm would end up since it would mean that there is a real war engaging these planes and their pilots. Games are games, reality is reality.
As soon as I saw your username, I knew it was over. Always a pleasure to see you ingame, even if you're on the enemy team and I know I'll be done for if I run into you ;)
I would have to look at the replay but it's probably due to him being in manual controls and trying to over-use the AoA ability of the Su-27 to force an early R-73 shot with HMD. This isn't actually a bad idea on his part but it's something I anticipated and it also just wasn't executed well. Basically there are situations where "muh cobra button" is useful and where it can prolong or win a fight....but as the option of first resort...it's just not it.
i always thought it was retarded when people talked about using the "one circle" or "rate fighting". war thunder is not a hardcore sim especially in the RB matches people use these terms in. woopty doo you can out rate a mig21 but he just pulled AOA and r60ed you. the community in this game has a weird way of deluding its self. like the other day was in a 8.7 match with 5 f104s, said i hate f104s then got hit with "skill issue, if your above 200kph a f104 shouldn't even be able to hit you". similar things get said all the time of "if you x then y shouldn't affect you". they say these things like its a card game where you can deploy a counter spell. i have a question for you; do you think war thunder could ever escape being a pvp gatcha game? i ask cause war thunder has so many features and mechanics that can be fun or special to war thunder, but the devs make more money off keeping it a pvp gatcha game. is there any type of time line where it can evolve past its current form or is it stuck this ways.
Yeah, but anyway in sim you can apply most of the real terminology and that will work but not like irl, I mean for example all the planes in WT also have optimal rate speed but because over-G is not a problem most of the time you can easily rate at 800+kmh(which is impossible irl and even in DCS) so it kinda works but the optimum is 100+kmh higher, the point is that’s the game and not a sim game, it’s just an arcade with “hardcore” game mode so the main issue with these players that they are trying to apply stats, characteristic, mechanics etc of planes, missiles, flares from rl to this game, sometimes it will work but most of the times it won’t and they’re trying to counter some planes like if it’s rl or at least DCS(even if not mention that this game also as far from reality as war thunder but different way) and forget that this game has “balance” thing. Some clear examples are Su-27 vs Gripen, surely Su-27 in the game has FM that is far from rl(in the bad way) but because it has r-73s and surely gripen has FM that is not just far but I’d say the most unrealistic over all jets but because it has no missiles like 9X or something so that’s the balance, you can’t missile Su-27 in gripen in dogfight but you can shot it down with a gun and vice versa and also you should be able to win against f-16 in gripen cause both planes are at the same br and should be kinda “equal” so f-16c has slightly worse FM but it has 7Ms which are better than skyflashes other than that both planes are pretty much the same in the game, same for gripen vs 16a, 16a has no SARHs and 9Ms at all but it has better FM than Gripen etc etc and that’s for any plane x vs plane y if they both have ~same br(except strike aircraft and bombers but that’s obvious that these planes just have different ways to farm SL and RP) Also pretty clear example is how multipathing works in the game vs rl, imagine 16v16 lobby with at least 64 SARH/ARH missiles that you can’t dodge by flying low(I mean you can, but you should fly below 10m which is kinda impossible even in rb if the map has any sort of trees just because trees are higher😂) So to balance these missiles for lobbies with so many of them snails had to increase this altitude to 50-100m(btw I’d personally love to see sim game mode with 2v2 or 1v1 without these arcade-ish mechanics, but on the other hand I have DCS to enjoy it)
I swear I had an argument just few hours ago talking precisely about how 1 youtuber says some bullshit about a plane because he's pressured to make content, and everyone else repeat the very same thing ad nauseam making people think some absurd things. It's the "as long as you know what you're doing" kinda people, gee
I think the issue with Laserpig is that despite ostensibly doing a bit and being more of a comedy channel he tends to take his conclusions really seriously, as do his fans. That would be fine if he was right more than 20% of the time but he isn't, and he gets REALLY pissy when called out on obvious factual errors, basically coming out and making hit pieces vs his detractors. He also calls everyone and their mother a propagandist while regularly regurgitating genuine British gov't propaganda, and his credential that he throws around is working in some tertiary MOD office like 10 years ago.
I get what you are saying that like what’s effective and what isn’t can’t be learned by listening it’s learned by playing. As well as the dcs terms and the way you play in dcs is not the same as war thunder
the point gs makes is that he demonstrates tactics. the videos are good learning material and people would do well to study them. when it comes to fighting, its up to you to apply the right tactic for the right situation. and you need to be fluid and adaptable to changing circumstances. know whats right for the circumstances, and realize when you have the wrong idea and its time to try something else. folks that see a tactic and forcibly apply it with no regard for the reality of the situation (because rEaL fiGHteR tACtIcs) are doomed to mald and cry about broken game and unrealistic gameplay etc, cuz GS showed it works (not a GS issue. just a bad player issue).
Real life info is cool, but games are games, grinding it out online is always gonna be how you get better most efficiently. There are some fundamentals in terms of how to fly ans carry over between all combat flight sims, but it's best to not assume.
It’s amusing hearing about this. Like I watch his stuff and do use some of his tactics in dogfights, but it’s more like “hey I’m going up against smth thst Beats me in a rate fight, let me not cooperate and try to force a on circle before getting third partied cause this is WT”. I know I’ve heard stuff like this a couple of times like, but I’ll never not find this amusing
None of his content is particularly offensive to me. But then again I don't watch it in-depth and I'm not going to be the turbo-nerd who's analysis is going to be "well acktually he was pulling lag pursuit for 20 seconds when he needed to be pulling lead pursuit" This video isn't particularly about his content specifically but more about the way that some people end up consuming and internalizing it and similar content.
@@squishface80085 Oh yea, I know, I did watch the video in full, don’t worry. I still remember people mentioning how they can rate fight in the F-16 or jamming the WEZ as mentioned in the vid. I just find it amusing when people think DCS and WT are one-to-one and treat it as such, kinda like the example put up about LazerPig
Hey ! Appreciated this video tbf. I agree with you, most of the BFM knowledge isn’t very important in war thunder. Still BFM can be somewhat useful in sim when it comes to pure 1v1 guns only and stuff like you would do in DCS. Sure war thunder FM performance are a real mess nowadays. I think having somewhat realistic performance is a good thing tbh. For instance MiG-29 took almost a year to get a good/accurate FM and is good as is. F16 still is a UFO because gaijin is not ready to moser proper FLCS instability etc… (I mean gripen is a literal UFO so is the M4k). I agree with you videos like Aeroturtle do a lot of damage to our community and bring people into duel with knowledge that isn’t always useful (even in DCS). I hope for the best for WT seriously, I know that FM performance being realistic is important to me and lots of People and I’ll work my way through bug reports to fix them ! As long as it is justified ofc. Anyway, thanks for underlying this issue to the community, it’s important !
FINALY THERE IS SOMEONE THAT CALLS OUT THE COPE BULLSHIT HAPPENING. More competetive content. testing limit performance of vehicles done by a player that fully understands all the fundamental game mechanics.
I like saying fighter pilot lingo because it makes me feel cool even if I’m a shitty pilot. I don’t take myself too seriously though, always important to take that time to laugh at yourself, and frequently Funny to me that people do I guess? There’s always gonna be people like this though. Guess the best way around it is to make them feel important while keeping them isolated from the community at large? Idk
I agree to an extent. But for dealing with things like miss information you should just check your facts. Find a YT who has clear cut evidence of certain performances and then fact check it yourself. When it comes to things like rate fighting and GS it’s two different games, the way WT handles G Force and AOA compared to DCS is completely different. So when it comes down to it the actual stats of a vehicle need to be taken and modeled how it should be according to the games physic’s. The fact that people think the SU-27 can rate fight is ridiculous, it a nose to nose beast and it’s primary advantage in a dogfight should be the R-73 with HMS.
It can rate fight some jets in WT like the Mirage 2000 or even the F16 I think, not sure. But it's not even the best at one circle fights because an F16A and Gripen will destroy it instantly with some pre-flaring and it's on par with an F16C, it's just best to not even abide by the "rules" and just rely on HMS R73
so, if i understand u correctly. these "dogfight" youtubers say and think stuff they have not sufficiently verified because they either face off against inexperienced players or just don't test their claims. witch has a result of the viewers thinking they know more than they do Im not too good at English but this is what i understood.
Squishy the smartest WT player ever and has the bestest opinions, other peoples opinions are bad and stupid and bad. I could 1v1 anyone in sim and any consensus is wrong because I contrarian and super small creator - Squishy in all of his videos pretty much
I don't really know why, but I ***hate*** the phrase "jamming the WEZ." I'm sure that is something that Growling Sidewinder made up or at least popularized, but I've never heard it anywhere else. I also think (with admittedly no data to back it up) that the DCS community is misrepresented by a small group of noisy folks in the RUclips comments who probably don't even fly DCS. They're just attracted to the idea of it, and they cling to it because of its reputation for realism, and they watch too much GS.
Yea, most of us DCS players are chill and want more people to get into DCS and grow the community. There's perfectionist and tryhards in every community, but that shouldn't stop people from enjoying things.
its actually so bad and i think if CCs were replaced with AI that just clipped stuff and made gameplay compilations without any verbal diarrhea from some bum the game would be in a better place
So I suppose we got gamemode mains (AB vs RB vs SB mains or Air vs Ground vs Naval), nation mains (Very loud western nationality mains and/or "minor" nation mains) and fandom mains (youtuber main ) now. It'll be interesting to see language mains (English vs Russian vs Chinese) collide if that becomes a thing.😅
If you watched the video you'd understand that I basically didn't spend any time bashing Growling Sidewinder...or even his general audience...but rather a specific type of outspoken aviation / military vehicle nerd that his general type of content attracts.
5:41 seconds into some youtuber complaining bitterly for 5 minutes straight about another youtuber. Or to say that another way, I watched this for five minutes because this guy said a more famous guy's name. I feel like I just listened to someone's private argument, or read a tabloid article. Well, I'm out, don't care how this ends, but thanks algorithm for nothing I guess
Sooo.. people watch growling sidewinder and think it aplies to WT Air RB? Ive done that and multiple of my discord friends took my ass into 1v1s and beat me like they where a drunk stepfather. Honestly the best i can think of is take 1v1s with people explaining what is happening. I went from a shit AB player to a slightly less shit RB player.
The best way I've found to have a 'voice' is to stop trying to be 'right' but to only speak from your own experiences. Some jet may BE the absolute hot meta jet of the week but if you can't make it work for you... why make a RUclips video parroting 'this is the hot meta jet'. Instead - I just say - here were my experiences when I flew this jet over this period of time when the game was in this state, it will change so .. .use your best judgement.
Or maybe DCS has more realistic physics engine and war thunder even at Sim level is an arcade game. War thunder meta stops these terms having any meaning that and Gaijin will never create a weapon system missile that cannot be dodged/flared.
@@lukewhitehouse4103 not every plane is badly modeled in DCS and not every plane is perfectly modeled in War Thunder, my point is that Gaijin tends to be a lot more consistent when it comes to flight models than DCS devs, and leagues better when it comes to missiles. With that being said, the F14 does happen to be one of the more realistic models in war thunder, where do you see any inaccuracies?
@something_001 Gaijin copy paste they select from a framework of existing flight models. Which is fine but they lack the fidelity of a dedicated sim like DCS
It's not always necessarily having to learn something from a video. Is GS informative and fun to watch? Yes. Does it apply to anything and everything aviation wise? No. You're interpreting that a bunch of people are watching him and doing things in War Thunder that doesn't work, but you can't make that assumption about everybody. There will always be bad eggs in every community that spoil the fun that's in it. Half these people haven't touched yoke or a rudder or even tried to fly IRL and make assumptions about flight performance like their the next Captain Pete Mitchell. Same exact thing applies to the tank aspect of WT as well. People think they know what the armor values should be, or penetration and LARP their way through arguments. It is what it is, not a huge issue.
This isn't something I am interpreting out of the blue, and I didn't really spend a lot of time talking about Growling Sidewinder specifically because his content isn't really a problem. It's the sense of intellectual superiority / over-confidence that some of the people voraciously consume this type of content end up bringing into online conversations etc in such a way that it makes it even more difficult for people to learn and understand.
@@squishface80085 That's the thing though, there are always "know it alls" and if people throw out vocabulary they heard from a video to sound intelligent then it will come back at them eventually. Kinda like the guy you showed in your video.
DCS "tactics" can work in War Thunder SIM because both games are based off of reality where these work, the problem is; nobody in War Thunder has a clue of what they are doing or they rely on their missiles so none of that shit works most of the time. With high off boresight IRCCM missiles and constant third partying, by the time you are half way through a rate fight (given the other person isnt just pulling as hard as they can on the stick to lock you up with HMS) you will murdered by 3 f16s who happened to be nearby. These tactics just arent viable mostly due to the fact that IRCCM missiles exist and you just dont have time. I believe forcing one circles and two circles work in very rare scenerios because I've done it myself in Sim about a handful of times, but they are too rare and if you cant spot the perfect moment to do it, you will die horribly and lose about 14,000 silver lions
idk, i have tons of dogfights in wt sim. In 12.3 sim games your radar and rwr gives you decent situational awareness, allowing to roughly estimate time you have to shoot down the bandit and make a decision to merge or not
@@mmmn8979with the advanced RWR you can kind of do that yes, but not with the older RWR that the Migs and Sukhois use with the way they currently are modeled. But that's where if you decide to dip out, you give your 6 to the opponent, and he just 9M or R73s you out of the air. I'm not saying dogfights aren't viable, I'm saying forcing a two circle is almost impossible and it is time consuming when it happens, youre almost better off just saying "Fuck this" and just pulling on the stick to lock them and just blasting them out of the air cuz it's faster and easier. If you are both out of missiles tho, it does come down to a more traditional dogfight
One is a ‘combat simulator’ that still isn’t 1:1 because at the end of the day it’s still a game. It tries to get close and gives you all those switches to flip, but it’s still a game at the end of the day. War Thunder is a game that genuinely models some things more accurately than DCS last I checked, namely a lot of EDs modeling of some missiles’ seekers and some of their aircraft’s radar simulation. DCS doesn’t even model different RCS sizes. Honestly the biggest difference between the two is that you don’t see War Thunder players show up in every DCS-related comment section just to say that theirs is bigger sorry, I mean better.
@@buschacha Overall DCS is in a different category and they strive to have as accurate of replicas as they can and they strive to have them actually fly like their real world counterparts in which MFS and WT don't come close. Either way, both are communities that enjoy the love of flying and aerial combat. I will never understand the constant animosity between the two.
@@GoonsOnlycom Guy they’re just on different sections of the same spectrum. There’s virtually no animosity coming from the WT side. It’s almost entirely from DCS players that think they’re special because they fly full fidelity packs and the game doesn’t make a “ding” when they shoot someone down.
comments like yours that go in and claim one is an arcade game without going into the nuances definitely doesn't help reduce the constant animosity between the two. and WT simulates some things better as the other person stated.@@GoonsOnlycom
Sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me. GS says all the time that DCS software is based on public info and that no one actually knows what the capability of the military equipment from different countries have. Stop whining!!!!!!
That's not at all what he's talking about. He's saying that people are taking what GS explains as gospel and apply it to WT which is a completely different game with different physics and flight models. It's just a bunch of misinformation being spouted by GS viewers or it's those people applying those methods and actually have no idea how or when to use them. It's not to knock GS, it's his viewers
@@roach8757 Sorry, still sounds like sour grapes. GS doesn’t say War Thunder has ruined DCS. He plays video games and makes entertainment out of it. I play War Thunder but I still enjoy his videos.
@@robertwood3970 yea it hasn't ruined WT at all, most people aren't saying that, some people just pretending like they know everything and it's kind of annoying when they are in WT chat or comments spouting bullshit. Not every RUclipsr is as passive as GS or Defyn, people will "whine" about anything
Us DCS players do not take WT seriously at all and view it as just an arcade shooter that is there for fun (we even consider "sim battles" to be arcade). If he wants to take it that serious then he needs to put up or shut up and actually buy the kit and the modules in DCS. The bar for entry into War Thunder is much lower and is a much more casual game. If Aeroturtle wants to take things serious and deal with one-circle/two-circle, jamming the WEZ, ect. then he should start playing DCS and based on what you showed he would be absolutely humbled. Let's see if he can learn and master a module in a STUDY level sim. Also us DCS players in general tend to look down on WT overall (not me personally but from my experience most DCS players view WT as some sort of kiddie pool). The only one I have seen within the DCS community address the disdain some show for WT is Enigma in one of his videos. Also Growling Sidewinder is not universally loved in the DCS community and has his fair share of controversy, although he is probably more respected than Cap and the Grim Reapers.
I've played dcs and warthunder, dcs and warthunder both aren't that special they are just games at the end of the day, I don't look down on Warthunder and everybody else I know that plays dcs doesn't either and most of the time I actually have more fun playing warthunder and everything it has to offer, but yea I don't know anyone who looks down on warthunder unless they are some over the top try hard dcs player where dcs is their life and think they are in a real air force lol, warthunder has tanks and ships, and yes I know dcs has combined arms but its 💩 compared to warthunder ground. 99% of dcs players would get destroyed the minute they got into a real fighter jet and got into a real aerial combat situation, the other 1% being the actual fighter pilots who play dcs would be the only ones who stand a chance, so at the end of the day it really doesn't matter, it's all about fun because they are just games lol. You make it sound like dcs players have some type of weird cult going on 😂 "us dcs players" and the other things you say are cringe and make dcs players look bad. If you have to sit behind any type of screen, almost nothing is realistic about the game you are playing.
@@WannabecopAdamHolen I would hope that "1% who are actual fighter pilots" would do well in an actual fighter jet because we pay a lot of money in taxes for them to do that.
growling sidewinder isnt that good of a player. he and his "f-16 pilot" friend lost in a fight where he and his friend were in the f-22 mod against 3 su-27s. he cherry picks his content and tells the other person to play worse. unfortunately when youre that popular people just suck him off.
If you aren't a real fighter pilot, you probably shouldn't talk about video game planes like they translate to real life. Only the folks behind the real controls truly know what a plabes capabilities are. Its the same problem i have with Airsoft milsimmers thinking they have as much knowledge as a real SOF dude. To conclude, anyone who thinks they know shit is lying to themselves and everyone else. They ain't shit, won't be shit and play fake war for internet points.
There is a problem with this video: There are terms and strategies in DCS that translate into War Thunder, me and my friend like dogfighting in custom matches, him with the A-10 and me with the F-5C and things such as One-Circle Fights, Rate-Fights, and Jamming the WEZ are all things that come into play. For example, I have noticed that the A-10 is better in One-Circle Fights and the F-5 is better at Rate-Fights (Two-Circle Fights). I also try to stay close to his aircraft so he can't get a 9L off on me. I am aware this knowledge is close to useless in Air RB (except when there are only two aircraft left) but he is talking more about dogfighting. Notice in his 10 Raptors vs entire North Korean Air Force which is more similar to Air RB none of the stuff he says in his 1v1 videos come into play. Not to mention ALL of his BVR videos with terms such as Notching, Fox 1, and Merge I hear WT youtubers use every day. It is the ignorance of WT players and not GS's fault. My point is a lot if not most of the things he says do come into play IRL and in WT so don't make an entire video saying he is producing Brain Rot and Misinformation.
Don't think just spouting terminology is "learning more about air combat". You don't see these people talk about basic BFM tactics like barrel rolls, yo yos, loaded rolls etc but you sure do see them yap on and on about rates and circles and WEZes despite the other terminologies being relevant in modern combat too. YOu know why? parrots only parrot crap they hear their favourite DCS tuber spout. It's not learning about air combat. Don't delude yourself.
@@sukhoifanboi maybe to the small amount of players that are interested in DCS. Simplifying combat down to circles and rates lead to misconceptions like people expecting the sukhoi to be a rate fighter in WT. It also leads people to misconceptions when they apply logic they've seen in favourite DCStuber channel and suddenly those tactics don't work in WT then they go "duh obviously a bad game". Combat ain't fought in a vacuum and knowing jargon (if you REALLY want to learn about air combat, shouldn't you look at actual pilots that fly DCS instead of a youtuber?) doesn't make anyone a good pilot. It just reeks of LARP. Anyways I have no problem with GS, that's his brand of content. I do find copycats trying to and failing at it in WT cringe though. The cringekoala being a big example.
Don't forget that after saying
"I'd love to see what you will do differently"
"When I beat you, we'll see what you have to say"
He said he wasn't being arrogant and he was playing for fun :)
@DEFYN what are your opinions on this video?
hi defyn!
big man spotted
Another DEFYN W
Tbh I played both dcs and a lot of others and it just depends on the information YOU can process
At the end of the day you both have different approaches to these things so you really truly can't compare a dcs main to idk an Arma 3 main two entirely different games but you can use some of the same concepts in them
I don't agree with you but I also do and if you look at one of growls videos he challenged an actual f/a 18 super hornet pilot so idk but you not wrong but your not right either
Watching growling sidewinder has made me 100% better at warthunder Sim. People are taking the wrong information from him if they are comparing plane to plane. The more skills I took were decision making at different energy states, tactics in the merge, and watching nose behavior to decide how to maneuver. The things that translate across flight Sims are still relevant in both games.
I play vtol and not only are his vids just fun to watch but it has made me 10000 times better at vtol. IMO it's just a game and its not that deep, watch it if you find it entertaining.
His videos are amazing its just the people who think they are geniuses after watching him
its worse still when DCS players make no separation between DCS the video game and real life plane performance. It is a video game, no plane in that game is 1:1 with its real counterpart. I have unironically seen DCS players think they can beat real life fighter pilots in dogfights in real planes.
Was that player named LanceLynxx?
Bruh, ik, had someone say the m2k can out rate the f16 in dcs, and in dcs I did some reaearhrhe f16 under performs in dcs by 1.5° and the m2k has almost no drag despite being a delta so its energy bleed is better than the hornets (it bleeds less energy than the hornet some how) and the fact they say its 1 to 1 is laughable, I then go and try and find flight characteristics from the manual of these aircraft and make sure they are declassified, I found out that the m2k with 50% fuel and two fox 2's at 5k feet, it sustained 12° I got 15° in war thunder and in dcs they got 14° meaning if fuel conditions were at 2000 pounds of fuel with a clean configuration the m2k wouldn't even be able to sustain 20° at its optimal corner speed at the deck.
while they might be good at dogfighting depending on what aircraft theyre trained to fly. its not really the skill of being able to dogfight, as in the tactics and maneuversm, but their stamina, that lets them win. video games also dont include like 80% of what actual combat actualy consists of but if you put a guy who plays a dcs f16 in a real f16 vs another real f16 pilot the dcs player will lose because he will black out or get disorinted by actually flying. but if te battle happens in DCS the DCS pilot might as well win its not like theres a secret way pilots fly in the dogfight. tho in a dogfight anything can happen in real life i mean theres proof of f22 lossing vs way "worse" dogfighters. and so can stuff happen in a controled environment called dcs. same can be said about bvr combat in dcs the dcs player can win because he plays a game he games a game. he´d be fucked in real combat though.
@@yujinhikita5611 research here hasn't been made, yes an real pilot vs a dcs pilot the dcs pilot will lose, but that's because irl pilots are trained differently and also are showed when to be aggressive, patient and spot weakness, meanwhile the 80% part of what you said is simply un true, dcs is 80% accurate not 1 to 1 sure, but it's good, war thunder is 70% to 50% at times, look at the f16c, its 80% accurate both in dcs and war thunder when you limit the f16c to only 9G's in wa thunder, its shockingly close to dcs's f16c. I even check the manual and found out what it sustained in war thunder and then compered it. As I said, you haven't done your research or testing. Your an rb player, so you don't bother.
@@WOLFER. it isnt all models that have poor flight models, for example the tomcat and viggen and really any module made by HEATBLUR my beloved has an absolutely stellar flight model, it is only the shitty models made by companies like razbam or ED themselves
I enjoy GS. As an Ex Army pilot I truly enjoy the AH64 missions. He is very accurate in his assessment and capabilities of that aircraft. The issue I have on the Apache is with DCS and the lack of a millimetric radar but I am sure they will update that soon. GS works within the boundaries of DCS and often says the real capabilities of an aircraft are often classified so it's a guess by DCS. The real pilots he brings in on occasions add realism and confirm much of what he says. He is often self deprecating and humble. He is a competent and knowledgeable pilot within the realm of DCS and claims to be nothing else.
I actually think it’s kinda hilarious watching GS fly ANY helicopter in DCS, because he’s so terrible at it compared to his fixed-wing proficiency. Sorta like the rest of us. I’ve never been able to master helicopters, because they just don’t respond the way you “expect” them to, i.e. the way a fixed-wing craft does. More practice, i guess.
For GS I feel like a lot of things are just taken out of context by the community and somehow transitioned into a real life scenario.
I think you have to take GS for what he is: a very proficient player of DCS. He never makes claims that any of this translates into the real world, but he obviously studies up on the capabilities and weaknesses of all the planes he flies DCS. I would say a lot of novices have learned a few things watching his vids.
I don't think he is bad at DCS...I barely play it so I wouldn't know what good looks like.
Yeah I don’t think the criticism of GS is fair honestly, even though you prefaced the discussion with a disclaimer that this wasn’t really about him. I gave up WT years ago because of the grind but the mentality you mention (manuals or clueless youtubers being perceived as more important than just in-game experience) had been around for a long time even before I joined, and that was during the Dora malice! I remember people complaining about certain planes performing this or that way according to youtubers who played the game off-handedly, or memoirs by pilots, as if that indicated how to play whatever implementation was in the game. This is not on GS, but a consequence of diving deeper into this kind of ’mechanic deep’ games in general, where this toxic mentality tends to arise
@@AankerStoneshield i agree, this stuff has been going on for long sice before GS was popular, and the same arguments will be made long after the game is gone. the reality is that its just a game and it doesnt really matter that much. Think about it this way, in the coming years, warthunder will run out of stuff to add and/or people will move on, and the game wont exist anymore. all this argument about spall liner this, bias that, x vehicle should have y weapon, ect is really getting old. the fact that people are willing to go to federal prison for leaking documents says a lot about this community. to me, theres a lot bigger issues with the community than people acting like they know things when they dont.
i say this as someone who has ~7k hours in game.
He is dogshit at DCS. I know someone who has personal experience flying with him. Hes a massive scam. He flies with G-effects off, and he stages most if not all of his videos.
Dang it where was this comment when I typed a whole essay saying pretty much the same thing
There are a few things that resonated with me.
1) The big difference between people who try to memorize information vs the people who practice execution to build knowledge. With so much information being available in many different mediums (YT, PDFs, forum posts, redidt, etc) it becomes really easy for people to think they are practicing by consuming this information but in reality they just are collecting useless information that they don't understand and can't execute on. I always tell people that being directionally correct is okay just as long as the information is ACTIONABLE. It doesn't help that half the information in videos are BS.
2) The race to post content is a really toxic thing that the platforms/RUclips has pushed onto people. I feel bad for some of the big youtubers where their livelihood is to try to just push out the same dogwater videos over and over again. This doesn't excuse them posting stuff that is straight up wrong but I can understand why they get caught up doing it.
3) WT recycling DCS videos to me seems natural but as someone who has spent a lot time in DCS, I warn people. DCS players, IMHO, should not really be looked up to. In general, I have found that DCS players are very poor in PVP scenarios compared to IL-2 or WT players. They get into a circle jerk about memorizing information that isn't actionable 90% of the time and they get off splashing a gen 2 plane with a f-18. These are the same players who get absolutely ran over by players when they get caught in a merge.
People do really forget it's just a video game that you just have so much passion for that you gaslight yourself into believing that it's the real deal
The amount of duels where they do wide circles to "2-circle" and tbh they all are shit at prop-tiers like its truly delusional to think that you can beat a spitfire in a p47 by muh "2-circle" fight, it just doesnt necessary apply to air rb or warthunder in general
Waiting for your thoughts about the dcs trailer of 2024 and beyond lol
1.) Agree on point number one. Nothing to add here.
2.) I think this is more of a RUclips wide issue that probably isn't limited to just WarThunder stuff. But WarThunder is the small pond that I play in so it's especially noticeable.
3.) I think it's less about recycling DCS content into War Thunder and more about copying aesthetics that have been proven to work regardless of whether or not the information is accurate.
As far as player skill goes...I don't play enough DCS to know one way or the other. From what I have seen that there are a few players that cross over between both games and end up being very knowledgeable about both. But there are also a considerable number of people that are fiercely loyal to one game or the other...or are so over-informed that they are insufferable.
For instance I had a guy argue with me months ago that the WarThunder F-14A was better in a dogfight than the MiG-29 at the time simply because the turn rate was higher.
On paper he is correct...in practice the setup for the F-14A was fairly difficult and while the MiG-29 could win initial turns, was very close in rate, and could also just win with power to weight ratio as well. Also at the time the F-14 ran so nuclear hot in game that just eating R-60M from front was realistic possibility even with pre-flaring.
When I offered him a chance to test it out against me he refused because I was just a toxic duelist that was just chasing clout.
And these kind of conversations are pretty common within WarThunder...where things get boiled down to pure hypotheticals and a lot of people have more experience arguing over what they would do and how they would win... instead of actually just doing it.
@@squishface80085 I guess my reaction to your point in#3 is I feel like it doesn't really matter. The crime that we all know is that War Thunder has an encyclopedic level of coverage of aircraft and the majority of time is all spent in the same sort of lobbies doing the same scenario over and over again with just a different colored map existing below.
These sort of hypotheticals of what beats what in a sterile and controlled 1vs1 are just a fool errands to argue over IMHO. I feel this way because I know these sort of hypotheticals rarely ever happen in real play. We all know that a non-trivial amount of 1vs1s just end with a third party getting involved. This sort of focus is just the same sort of focus of people trying to cram useless information in their head. What is more actionable to know is how to fight and survive with 20 other people on the map because this is what you end up being in most of the time in war thunder.
DCS is not immune to this either. There are channels in DCS that spend a significant amount of time talking about fights that are artificially made like in a lab. They are sterile 1vs1s but these sort of fights almost never happen organically where there is a truly equal merge with fresh planes. Fights happen organically, from different angles, different fuel amounts, different weapon mixes, etc. This is why I have personally focused my channel on purely organic fights because that is where the magic happens and where you have to understand the situation you are in and not just the plane because the context plays into the fight.
@@Enigma89
I think I should have clarified that these conversations usually start in the context of random battles and shifts towards the 1 v 1 just because the even the premise that is being made is not even true in a sterile context.
My channel tends to be multi-faceted. I show gameplay that is against random but I also practice 1v1 against players that I know that are good so that I can challenge myself and have a better understanding for exactly how much I can get away with in random matches. I do both because I find both to be fun.
Actually considering your Cold War DCS focus, you can make the analogy that most DCS players are like the USAF in early Vietnam. They think they are the best and most "educated" in theories and capabilities they think they are great pilots slinging missiles from 40 miles away on some poor SOD. But they never actually flew the jet. And the people whom are good at flying the jet are the poor folks that couldn't afford a proper module and fly the lower developed modules but actually put time in learning to fly said jets and kicking the asses of the smug "educated" pilots
Most of us DCS players are chill and want more people to get into DCS and grow the community. There's perfectionist and tryhards in every community, but that shouldn't stop people from enjoying things.
I think the biggest misinformation is that a certain aircraft is either a one circle or two circle one when you should be utilising both methods depending on the energy difference between aircraft. An Su-27 will easily rate fight an F-16 if it goes into the merge 100 knots faster despite being a “one circle” fighter. Same goes the other way, the F-16 will easily turn inside the Su-27 in this situation despite being a “rate” fighter. With some aircraft the difference in performance is so small that the energy state and fuel/weapons load is the only deciding factor.
The biggest misinformation, in my mind, is that one circle and two circle BFM is an actual "tactic" for use in *any* game, simulator, or even real air combat. There's a reason we have another term: ACM, or air combat manuevering. You learn BFM because it gives you a foundation to understand the geometry of air combat. You practice BFM so that you learn to recognize the visual cues of that geometry. You fly BFM against an instructor or practice partner who is flying with the purpose of teaching you, not killing you by any means possible!
There are no one-circle fighters, two-circle fighters, turn fighters, vertical fighters, or B&Z fighters. There is only one kind of fighter: the energy fighter.
This is such a dumb hill to die on too, like literally anybody can boot up wtrti and see gripen owns flunker its not some hidden technique lmfao
Go read the comment chain on Squish's Su-27 video, guy telling me the technique to win in the Su-27 is to "maintain energy in the stalls"
@@_lo8241 WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN
@@wmouse you simply, uh…idk actually im typically good at deciphering the dcs brain rot
Thank you for the clear criticism and review of a phenomenon we see a lot in the game.
Wan circle, Two circle, Rate fight, the LARP will carry me to victory 🥴
“I’ve got him in the LARP”
You know the video is going to be good when it starts off with the koala duels
Nice video. Scottish Koala is such a pain to deal with from my experience
Same dude
A non-zero number of flight sim content creators have videos where they talk the talk and say accurate-sounding jargon and literally nothing what they are narrating even matches what's happening on the screen
People need to understand that DCS and WT plays completely differently, and majority of the turn GS plays against AI. (Although it is entertaining and I do enjoy his content and always have.) and I have learned new tactics from his videos which id never thought of doing back when I wasn’t all that good. (Also it was my birthday yesterday!!)
he does play real people majority of the time
@@vondalo5504yeah it the 1v1’s he does fight real players majority of the time but also AI, but he does do a lot of videos of him fighting AI.
@@No1harris_98you mean “1 f-16 intercept 9000000000 Su-57” kinda vids? Yeah in these he definitely plays against AI)))
@@user-jy6cn3jy8g well yeah but he does do 1v1/2v2/3v3 etc..etc which are mainly against AI but that doesn’t really matter tbh.
@@No1harris_98 can’t disagree, in these vids he just shows some tactics that also can be applied against real players in DCS but that will req 2 teams with at least 2 good players that will cooperate with each other in both teams so with bots that’s much easier to record especially because bots in DCS are not that bad
What i dont understand is why people compare WT to DCS. Theyre both completely different in purpose and neither is perfect. I dont think we can blame GS for any of this either, those types of people that bash either side existed way before GS took off.
God thanks for putting thoughts into words, it’s refreshing to see takes like this
Smart man he sees it all through, I'm so glad I got this as recommended :D
You are someone worth listening to
Bruh 😂, the only place the su-27 is competitive in is in a nose to nose fight (very close) but I gotta have the link on where he said "it can out rate and out one circle the gripen" the flanker series can not rate fight to save their life.
The best sustained I got from the su-27 and j-11 was on average 16° to 18° which is horrible btw. To be competitive in a rate fight you need to have 20° or even higher.
problem with WT is that its 100% or nothing on the elevator so you cant actually conserve energy to be in the pefect rate neither can you sustain 9g for the amount of time you need, to come around and get the shot. this makes almost every fgiht a one circle.
@@yujinhikita5611 that's not true, in sim, you have stick discipline, you can sustain 9G's and preserve energy, but I'm guess your an rb player so that's why your saying that.
@@WOLFER. yeah we RB players is 100% or nothing
@daeveddd7140 ik, but saying its not possible to sustain is bs, it can be done, rb players just need to realise full real controls allow to truly do whatever you want with an aircraft.
WT F15 rate is fucking ridiculous at 350 knots
I see this shit alot with people throwing around terms and ideas with no actual consideration for how that shit translates in game. Im sorry but in the war thunder community, Aero turtle in particular is the best example of this, with him trying to teach you "techniques" and skills that will never translate well or be practical 90% of the time. It feels like he wants war thunder to be DCS so bad but itsnjust not and he cant get iver that somehow.
I've been having the same feeling as you and i'm glad i'm not the only one feeling this way, i understand those term exist for a reason and need to be used, but most people use them without really knowing what it mean and mostly to just sound smart.
Growling Sidewinder community is composed of mostly experienced pilot that will understand what he's speaking about, but most of war thunder player are just casual, and so no need for those overcomplicated term.
she jamming my wez til i crank
Hahahah I love the monotone delivery of ur channel you got the sauce
Thank you for railing Aeroturtle. Rail Silent and Matawg next.
i think dumbing GS content down to just dogfights is a bit unjust, he does alot more stuff, yes dogfights is the cornerstone of his channel but he mainly just makes fun entertaining videos. The issue is just stupid people thinking that his videos are exactly what its like irl. Yes he does give some good insight to the basics of BVR but again his channel is mainly for entertainment of the masses.
I think you might have misunderstood what I said. When I compared Growling Sidewinder to dogfights...I was talking about a TV show that aired on the History Channel in like the early 2000s who's whole focus was historical air combat. It was a good TV show.
@@squishface80085 oh right, my bad then
Real life flight performances are obviously classified, despite the fact some guys claimed that they have « sekrit dokuments »… And in fact, nobody want to really know how a real dogfight between an F-22 and a Su-30Sm would end up since it would mean that there is a real war engaging these planes and their pilots. Games are games, reality is reality.
As soon as I saw your username, I knew it was over. Always a pleasure to see you ingame, even if you're on the enemy team and I know I'll be done for if I run into you ;)
geez, I didnt know making a manuver can be called cringe
why do it feels like the ennemy su27 isnt on full control ? like the gripen is better but not that much better at turning
I would have to look at the replay but it's probably due to him being in manual controls and trying to over-use the AoA ability of the Su-27 to force an early R-73 shot with HMD.
This isn't actually a bad idea on his part but it's something I anticipated and it also just wasn't executed well. Basically there are situations where "muh cobra button" is useful and where it can prolong or win a fight....but as the option of first resort...it's just not it.
nice, I hope most people making that style of content watch this and become inspired to create some new creative things
i always thought it was retarded when people talked about using the "one circle" or "rate fighting". war thunder is not a hardcore sim especially in the RB matches people use these terms in. woopty doo you can out rate a mig21 but he just pulled AOA and r60ed you. the community in this game has a weird way of deluding its self. like the other day was in a 8.7 match with 5 f104s, said i hate f104s then got hit with "skill issue, if your above 200kph a f104 shouldn't even be able to hit you". similar things get said all the time of "if you x then y shouldn't affect you". they say these things like its a card game where you can deploy a counter spell.
i have a question for you; do you think war thunder could ever escape being a pvp gatcha game?
i ask cause war thunder has so many features and mechanics that can be fun or special to war thunder, but the devs make more money off keeping it a pvp gatcha game. is there any type of time line where it can evolve past its current form or is it stuck this ways.
Yeah, but anyway in sim you can apply most of the real terminology and that will work but not like irl, I mean for example all the planes in WT also have optimal rate speed but because over-G is not a problem most of the time you can easily rate at 800+kmh(which is impossible irl and even in DCS) so it kinda works but the optimum is 100+kmh higher, the point is that’s the game and not a sim game, it’s just an arcade with “hardcore” game mode so the main issue with these players that they are trying to apply stats, characteristic, mechanics etc of planes, missiles, flares from rl to this game, sometimes it will work but most of the times it won’t and they’re trying to counter some planes like if it’s rl or at least DCS(even if not mention that this game also as far from reality as war thunder but different way) and forget that this game has “balance” thing.
Some clear examples are Su-27 vs Gripen, surely Su-27 in the game has FM that is far from rl(in the bad way) but because it has r-73s and surely gripen has FM that is not just far but I’d say the most unrealistic over all jets but because it has no missiles like 9X or something so that’s the balance, you can’t missile Su-27 in gripen in dogfight but you can shot it down with a gun and vice versa and also you should be able to win against f-16 in gripen cause both planes are at the same br and should be kinda “equal” so f-16c has slightly worse FM but it has 7Ms which are better than skyflashes other than that both planes are pretty much the same in the game, same for gripen vs 16a, 16a has no SARHs and 9Ms at all but it has better FM than Gripen etc etc and that’s for any plane x vs plane y if they both have ~same br(except strike aircraft and bombers but that’s obvious that these planes just have different ways to farm SL and RP)
Also pretty clear example is how multipathing works in the game vs rl, imagine 16v16 lobby with at least 64 SARH/ARH missiles that you can’t dodge by flying low(I mean you can, but you should fly below 10m which is kinda impossible even in rb if the map has any sort of trees just because trees are higher😂) So to balance these missiles for lobbies with so many of them snails had to increase this altitude to 50-100m(btw I’d personally love to see sim game mode with 2v2 or 1v1 without these arcade-ish mechanics, but on the other hand I have DCS to enjoy it)
I swear I had an argument just few hours ago talking precisely about how 1 youtuber says some bullshit about a plane because he's pressured to make content, and everyone else repeat the very same thing ad nauseam making people think some absurd things. It's the "as long as you know what you're doing" kinda people, gee
hahahah epic video dude keep it up :D
I think the issue with Laserpig is that despite ostensibly doing a bit and being more of a comedy channel he tends to take his conclusions really seriously, as do his fans. That would be fine if he was right more than 20% of the time but he isn't, and he gets REALLY pissy when called out on obvious factual errors, basically coming out and making hit pieces vs his detractors. He also calls everyone and their mother a propagandist while regularly regurgitating genuine British gov't propaganda, and his credential that he throws around is working in some tertiary MOD office like 10 years ago.
I get what you are saying that like what’s effective and what isn’t can’t be learned by listening it’s learned by playing. As well as the dcs terms and the way you play in dcs is not the same as war thunder
been a disaster for dcs too lmao
Been saying this for like 2 years now glad someone else agrees
the point gs makes is that he demonstrates tactics. the videos are good learning material and people would do well to study them.
when it comes to fighting, its up to you to apply the right tactic for the right situation.
and you need to be fluid and adaptable to changing circumstances.
know whats right for the circumstances, and realize when you have the wrong idea and its time to try something else.
folks that see a tactic and forcibly apply it with no regard for the reality of the situation (because rEaL fiGHteR tACtIcs) are doomed to mald and cry about broken game and unrealistic gameplay etc, cuz GS showed it works (not a GS issue. just a bad player issue).
aye but did you know a bf109 can beat a eurofighter
Real life info is cool, but games are games, grinding it out online is always gonna be how you get better most efficiently.
There are some fundamentals in terms of how to fly ans carry over between all combat flight sims, but it's best to not assume.
It’s amusing hearing about this. Like I watch his stuff and do use some of his tactics in dogfights, but it’s more like “hey I’m going up against smth thst Beats me in a rate fight, let me not cooperate and try to force a on circle before getting third partied cause this is WT”.
I know I’ve heard stuff like this a couple of times like, but I’ll never not find this amusing
None of his content is particularly offensive to me. But then again I don't watch it in-depth and I'm not going to be the turbo-nerd who's analysis is going to be "well acktually he was pulling lag pursuit for 20 seconds when he needed to be pulling lead pursuit"
This video isn't particularly about his content specifically but more about the way that some people end up consuming and internalizing it and similar content.
@@squishface80085 Oh yea, I know, I did watch the video in full, don’t worry. I still remember people mentioning how they can rate fight in the F-16 or jamming the WEZ as mentioned in the vid.
I just find it amusing when people think DCS and WT are one-to-one and treat it as such, kinda like the example put up about LazerPig
anyone else remember areo turtle loosing to mig 23MLD in the f 14
Your discord link is expired how do I join
discord.com/invite/44vJX6ft
Hey ! Appreciated this video tbf. I agree with you, most of the BFM knowledge isn’t very important in war thunder. Still BFM can be somewhat useful in sim when it comes to pure 1v1 guns only and stuff like you would do in DCS. Sure war thunder FM performance are a real mess nowadays. I think having somewhat realistic performance is a good thing tbh. For instance MiG-29 took almost a year to get a good/accurate FM and is good as is. F16 still is a UFO because gaijin is not ready to moser proper FLCS instability etc… (I mean gripen is a literal UFO so is the M4k).
I agree with you videos like Aeroturtle do a lot of damage to our community and bring people into duel with knowledge that isn’t always useful (even in DCS).
I hope for the best for WT seriously, I know that FM performance being realistic is important to me and lots of People and I’ll work my way through bug reports to fix them ! As long as it is justified ofc.
Anyway, thanks for underlying this issue to the community, it’s important !
i thought this was about dcs pvp server growling sidewinder
How does Koala always gets in these drama stuff?
He was just the most clear cut example of DCS brain rot infecting War Thunder.
nono, its outside DCS, he always in a War Thunder Drama@@squishface80085
Seeing WT community drama unfold is fun
Community implies we are united....which isn't the case you won't meet a more toxic player group
FINALY THERE IS SOMEONE THAT CALLS OUT THE COPE BULLSHIT HAPPENING. More competetive content. testing limit performance of vehicles done by a player that fully understands all the fundamental game mechanics.
I like saying fighter pilot lingo because it makes me feel cool even if I’m a shitty pilot. I don’t take myself too seriously though, always important to take that time to laugh at yourself, and frequently
Funny to me that people do I guess? There’s always gonna be people like this though. Guess the best way around it is to make them feel important while keeping them isolated from the community at large? Idk
I agree to an extent. But for dealing with things like miss information you should just check your facts. Find a YT who has clear cut evidence of certain performances and then fact check it yourself. When it comes to things like rate fighting and GS it’s two different games, the way WT handles G Force and AOA compared to DCS is completely different. So when it comes down to it the actual stats of a vehicle need to be taken and modeled how it should be according to the games physic’s. The fact that people think the SU-27 can rate fight is ridiculous, it a nose to nose beast and it’s primary advantage in a dogfight should be the R-73 with HMS.
It can rate fight some jets in WT like the Mirage 2000 or even the F16 I think, not sure. But it's not even the best at one circle fights because an F16A and Gripen will destroy it instantly with some pre-flaring and it's on par with an F16C, it's just best to not even abide by the "rules" and just rely on HMS R73
so, if i understand u correctly. these "dogfight" youtubers say and think stuff they have not sufficiently verified because they either face off against inexperienced players or just don't test their claims.
witch has a result of the viewers thinking they know more than they do
Im not too good at English but this is what i understood.
I agree with this
2:07 aint no way you compare them like this lmao
Squishy the smartest WT player ever and has the bestest opinions, other peoples opinions are bad and stupid and bad. I could 1v1 anyone in sim and any consensus is wrong because I contrarian and super small creator - Squishy in all of his videos pretty much
Who are these idiots?? And you earned my sub for sure GG
Yea I dont think so.
I don't really know why, but I ***hate*** the phrase "jamming the WEZ." I'm sure that is something that Growling Sidewinder made up or at least popularized, but I've never heard it anywhere else.
I also think (with admittedly no data to back it up) that the DCS community is misrepresented by a small group of noisy folks in the RUclips comments who probably don't even fly DCS. They're just attracted to the idea of it, and they cling to it because of its reputation for realism, and they watch too much GS.
Yeah, doesn’t mean anything, but I’d never heard of the “WEZ” before DCS, but there is a real thing called the “No Escape Zone”, or “NEZ”.
Yea, most of us DCS players are chill and want more people to get into DCS and grow the community. There's perfectionist and tryhards in every community, but that shouldn't stop people from enjoying things.
its actually so bad and i think if CCs were replaced with AI that just clipped stuff and made gameplay compilations without any verbal diarrhea from some bum the game would be in a better place
So I suppose we got gamemode mains (AB vs RB vs SB mains or Air vs Ground vs Naval), nation mains (Very loud western nationality mains and/or "minor" nation mains) and fandom mains (youtuber main ) now. It'll be interesting to see language mains (English vs Russian vs Chinese) collide if that becomes a thing.😅
Honestly i really enjoy GS videos. You should not bashing others if you dont like them.
in the end it's just video game
If you watched the video you'd understand that I basically didn't spend any time bashing Growling Sidewinder...or even his general audience...but rather a specific type of outspoken aviation / military vehicle nerd that his general type of content attracts.
@@squishface80085 bro you literally said he was producing Brain Rot, don't lie
5:41 seconds into some youtuber complaining bitterly for 5 minutes straight about another youtuber. Or to say that another way, I watched this for five minutes because this guy said a more famous guy's name. I feel like I just listened to someone's private argument, or read a tabloid article. Well, I'm out, don't care how this ends, but thanks algorithm for nothing I guess
Sooo.. people watch growling sidewinder and think it aplies to WT Air RB?
Ive done that and multiple of my discord friends took my ass into 1v1s and beat me like they where a drunk stepfather.
Honestly the best i can think of is take 1v1s with people explaining what is happening.
I went from a shit AB player to a slightly less shit RB player.
Don't comments help the algorithm
The best way I've found to have a 'voice' is to stop trying to be 'right' but to only speak from your own experiences. Some jet may BE the absolute hot meta jet of the week but if you can't make it work for you... why make a RUclips video parroting 'this is the hot meta jet'. Instead - I just say - here were my experiences when I flew this jet over this period of time when the game was in this state, it will change so .. .use your best judgement.
Or maybe DCS has more realistic physics engine and war thunder even at Sim level is an arcade game. War thunder meta stops these terms having any meaning that and Gaijin will never create a weapon system missile that cannot be dodged/flared.
War thunder flight models and missiles are generally more realistic than DCS
@@something_001 I can't take this comment seriously, sorry. Let's take the heatblur F-14 and compare it with Warthunders version
@@lukewhitehouse4103 not every plane is badly modeled in DCS and not every plane is perfectly modeled in War Thunder, my point is that Gaijin tends to be a lot more consistent when it comes to flight models than DCS devs, and leagues better when it comes to missiles.
With that being said, the F14 does happen to be one of the more realistic models in war thunder, where do you see any inaccuracies?
@something_001 Gaijin copy paste they select from a framework of existing flight models. Which is fine but they lack the fidelity of a dedicated sim like DCS
Copy paste them from where? Gaijin works with their own proprietary engine and manually tunes flight models according to irl data.
It's not always necessarily having to learn something from a video. Is GS informative and fun to watch? Yes. Does it apply to anything and everything aviation wise? No. You're interpreting that a bunch of people are watching him and doing things in War Thunder that doesn't work, but you can't make that assumption about everybody. There will always be bad eggs in every community that spoil the fun that's in it. Half these people haven't touched yoke or a rudder or even tried to fly IRL and make assumptions about flight performance like their the next Captain Pete Mitchell. Same exact thing applies to the tank aspect of WT as well. People think they know what the armor values should be, or penetration and LARP their way through arguments. It is what it is, not a huge issue.
This isn't something I am interpreting out of the blue, and I didn't really spend a lot of time talking about Growling Sidewinder specifically because his content isn't really a problem.
It's the sense of intellectual superiority / over-confidence that some of the people voraciously consume this type of content end up bringing into online conversations etc in such a way that it makes it even more difficult for people to learn and understand.
@@squishface80085 That's the thing though, there are always "know it alls" and if people throw out vocabulary they heard from a video to sound intelligent then it will come back at them eventually. Kinda like the guy you showed in your video.
DCS "tactics" can work in War Thunder SIM because both games are based off of reality where these work, the problem is; nobody in War Thunder has a clue of what they are doing or they rely on their missiles so none of that shit works most of the time. With high off boresight IRCCM missiles and constant third partying, by the time you are half way through a rate fight (given the other person isnt just pulling as hard as they can on the stick to lock you up with HMS) you will murdered by 3 f16s who happened to be nearby. These tactics just arent viable mostly due to the fact that IRCCM missiles exist and you just dont have time. I believe forcing one circles and two circles work in very rare scenerios because I've done it myself in Sim about a handful of times, but they are too rare and if you cant spot the perfect moment to do it, you will die horribly and lose about 14,000 silver lions
idk, i have tons of dogfights in wt sim. In 12.3 sim games your radar and rwr gives you decent situational awareness, allowing to roughly estimate time you have to shoot down the bandit and make a decision to merge or not
@@mmmn8979with the advanced RWR you can kind of do that yes, but not with the older RWR that the Migs and Sukhois use with the way they currently are modeled. But that's where if you decide to dip out, you give your 6 to the opponent, and he just 9M or R73s you out of the air. I'm not saying dogfights aren't viable, I'm saying forcing a two circle is almost impossible and it is time consuming when it happens, youre almost better off just saying "Fuck this" and just pulling on the stick to lock them and just blasting them out of the air cuz it's faster and easier. If you are both out of missiles tho, it does come down to a more traditional dogfight
and honestly who cares about 1 circle 2 circle and random dogfight vocabulary lets just dogfight by instinct and just be better
Fighter plane pilot larper are coping hard rn
One is a combat simulator and the other is an arcade shooter, apples to oranges
One is a ‘combat simulator’ that still isn’t 1:1 because at the end of the day it’s still a game. It tries to get close and gives you all those switches to flip, but it’s still a game at the end of the day.
War Thunder is a game that genuinely models some things more accurately than DCS last I checked, namely a lot of EDs modeling of some missiles’ seekers and some of their aircraft’s radar simulation. DCS doesn’t even model different RCS sizes. Honestly the biggest difference between the two is that you don’t see War Thunder players show up in every DCS-related comment section just to say that theirs is bigger sorry, I mean better.
@@buschacha Overall DCS is in a different category and they strive to have as accurate of replicas as they can and they strive to have them actually fly like their real world counterparts in which MFS and WT don't come close.
Either way, both are communities that enjoy the love of flying and aerial combat. I will never understand the constant animosity between the two.
@@GoonsOnlycom Guy they’re just on different sections of the same spectrum. There’s virtually no animosity coming from the WT side. It’s almost entirely from DCS players that think they’re special because they fly full fidelity packs and the game doesn’t make a “ding” when they shoot someone down.
comments like yours that go in and claim one is an arcade game without going into the nuances definitely doesn't help reduce the constant animosity between the two. and WT simulates some things better as the other person stated.@@GoonsOnlycom
Sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me. GS says all the time that DCS software is based on public info and that no one actually knows what the capability of the military equipment from different countries have. Stop whining!!!!!!
Nah
That's not at all what he's talking about. He's saying that people are taking what GS explains as gospel and apply it to WT which is a completely different game with different physics and flight models. It's just a bunch of misinformation being spouted by GS viewers or it's those people applying those methods and actually have no idea how or when to use them. It's not to knock GS, it's his viewers
@@roach8757
Sorry, still sounds like sour grapes. GS doesn’t say War Thunder has ruined DCS. He plays video games and makes entertainment out of it. I play War Thunder but I still enjoy his videos.
@@robertwood3970 yea it hasn't ruined WT at all, most people aren't saying that, some people just pretending like they know everything and it's kind of annoying when they are in WT chat or comments spouting bullshit. Not every RUclipsr is as passive as GS or Defyn, people will "whine" about anything
Us DCS players do not take WT seriously at all and view it as just an arcade shooter that is there for fun (we even consider "sim battles" to be arcade). If he wants to take it that serious then he needs to put up or shut up and actually buy the kit and the modules in DCS. The bar for entry into War Thunder is much lower and is a much more casual game. If Aeroturtle wants to take things serious and deal with one-circle/two-circle, jamming the WEZ, ect. then he should start playing DCS and based on what you showed he would be absolutely humbled. Let's see if he can learn and master a module in a STUDY level sim. Also us DCS players in general tend to look down on WT overall (not me personally but from my experience most DCS players view WT as some sort of kiddie pool). The only one I have seen within the DCS community address the disdain some show for WT is Enigma in one of his videos. Also Growling Sidewinder is not universally loved in the DCS community and has his fair share of controversy, although he is probably more respected than Cap and the Grim Reapers.
I've played dcs and warthunder, dcs and warthunder both aren't that special they are just games at the end of the day, I don't look down on Warthunder and everybody else I know that plays dcs doesn't either and most of the time I actually have more fun playing warthunder and everything it has to offer, but yea I don't know anyone who looks down on warthunder unless they are some over the top try hard dcs player where dcs is their life and think they are in a real air force lol, warthunder has tanks and ships, and yes I know dcs has combined arms but its 💩 compared to warthunder ground. 99% of dcs players would get destroyed the minute they got into a real fighter jet and got into a real aerial combat situation, the other 1% being the actual fighter pilots who play dcs would be the only ones who stand a chance, so at the end of the day it really doesn't matter, it's all about fun because they are just games lol. You make it sound like dcs players have some type of weird cult going on 😂 "us dcs players" and the other things you say are cringe and make dcs players look bad. If you have to sit behind any type of screen, almost nothing is realistic about the game you are playing.
@@WannabecopAdamHolen I would hope that "1% who are actual fighter pilots" would do well in an actual fighter jet because we pay a lot of money in taxes for them to do that.
growling sidewinder isnt that good of a player. he and his "f-16 pilot" friend lost in a fight where he and his friend were in the f-22 mod against 3 su-27s. he cherry picks his content and tells the other person to play worse. unfortunately when youre that popular people just suck him off.
Spit facts nick, its pretty egregious.
where can i watch that video?
He's pretty good. Not exactly competitive but he's not pretending to be.
Lets see your videos of you then hotshot
Now what? Makes entertaining content for casual air combat enjoyers
If you aren't a real fighter pilot, you probably shouldn't talk about video game planes like they translate to real life. Only the folks behind the real controls truly know what a plabes capabilities are. Its the same problem i have with Airsoft milsimmers thinking they have as much knowledge as a real SOF dude.
To conclude, anyone who thinks they know shit is lying to themselves and everyone else. They ain't shit, won't be shit and play fake war for internet points.
There is a problem with this video:
There are terms and strategies in DCS that translate into War Thunder, me and my friend like dogfighting in custom matches, him with the A-10 and me with the F-5C and things such as One-Circle Fights, Rate-Fights, and Jamming the WEZ are all things that come into play. For example, I have noticed that the A-10 is better in One-Circle Fights and the F-5 is better at Rate-Fights (Two-Circle Fights). I also try to stay close to his aircraft so he can't get a 9L off on me. I am aware this knowledge is close to useless in Air RB (except when there are only two aircraft left) but he is talking more about dogfighting. Notice in his 10 Raptors vs entire North Korean Air Force which is more similar to Air RB none of the stuff he says in his 1v1 videos come into play. Not to mention ALL of his BVR videos with terms such as Notching, Fox 1, and Merge I hear WT youtubers use every day. It is the ignorance of WT players and not GS's fault. My point is a lot if not most of the things he says do come into play IRL and in WT so don't make an entire video saying he is producing Brain Rot and Misinformation.
I’ll take GS in DCS over anyone playing WT anyday!
Ok
War thunder is obviously not realistic, it's a video game! I mean just look at how well ruzzia performs in game vs real life! They suck 😂
Wow, what a dumb take. People learning more about air combat? Oh noooo what a disaster.
air combat =/= war thunder combat
Don't think just spouting terminology is "learning more about air combat". You don't see these people talk about basic BFM tactics like barrel rolls, yo yos, loaded rolls etc but you sure do see them yap on and on about rates and circles and WEZes despite the other terminologies being relevant in modern combat too. YOu know why? parrots only parrot crap they hear their favourite DCS tuber spout.
It's not learning about air combat. Don't delude yourself.
@@MrRetrogoo and guess what, they fucking love it and eat it up. makes the vid way more immersive and fun to watch
@@sukhoifanboi maybe to the small amount of players that are interested in DCS. Simplifying combat down to circles and rates lead to misconceptions like people expecting the sukhoi to be a rate fighter in WT. It also leads people to misconceptions when they apply logic they've seen in favourite DCStuber channel and suddenly those tactics don't work in WT then they go "duh obviously a bad game". Combat ain't fought in a vacuum and knowing jargon (if you REALLY want to learn about air combat, shouldn't you look at actual pilots that fly DCS instead of a youtuber?) doesn't make anyone a good pilot. It just reeks of LARP.
Anyways I have no problem with GS, that's his brand of content. I do find copycats trying to and failing at it in WT cringe though. The cringekoala being a big example.
Its the weird superiotity complex that comes with it
horrible take
Yeah, well that's just like your opinion man.