Up Oosfräisk Plat: "bâab un mäem" (mom and dad) - also germanized "pâap un mâam", "mauder un fóóder" (mother and father), "bäep un besfóóer" (grandmother & grandfather) - also germanized "ooma un oopa", another frequent word for "bäep" is "oodje". Grandchildren are "kindskinner" - germanized "enkelkinner". "oomsäeger/unkelsäeger/möysäeger/tantsäeger" are obsolete, "nêev" and "niecht" are used. What's interesting is that we often say "us jung" or "us mauder" instead of "miin". Phrases like "wil mauder noch kofje" or even "wil nóóber noch wat eeten" also occur in East Frisian Plat and Saterland Frisian.
In Low Saxon there are also strange things going on with possessives before kinship terms. Usually, gender is marked on possessives, but kinship terms are an exception: the same inflection is used for possessives before male and female family members
Two things: The Danish (and Norwegian) farmor/farfar and mormor/morfar are very different from the Frisian, as they specify which parent they are parents of. As it used to be unusual for a grandchild to have a "full set" of living grandparents, the one or two alive would sometimes be referred to as bedstefar/bedstemor. Also, we use 'fætter' for a male cousin, and 'kusine' for a female cousin, like in German I think. Although words like uncle 'onkel' and aunt 'tante' have been taken in (from German again?), for female siblings of the father and mother it is common to use 'faster' and 'moster' (obviously father's sister and mother's sister). Same goes for male siblings of parents, although 'onkel' is more common, 'morbror' and 'farbror' are sometimes used (again obvious), leaving the terms 'onkel' and 'tante' just for the _spouses_ of parent siblings. Finally, a person could refer to a nephew who is a brothers son as 'brorsøn' (again logic: brother's son. This has in some cases become a surname, like "Brorson", or "Brodersen", I guess.) Regarding the use of third person for politeness, I remember seeing a video about this phenomenon in Sweden, where it had become so pervasive that it was problematic, as you could not talk to a person without knowing their title: "Vil herr Doktoren have kaffe?" Btw, in Danish, after divorces and multiple sequential marriages became common, words for non-biological parents, or a biological parent's new spouse/partner were invented, much like stepmother 'stedmor' and stepfather 'stedfar': these are 'papmor' and 'papfar', which is literally _cardboard_ mom/dad. It may have originated as a mildly derogatory term, but I don't really know for sure. Ok, that was three things.
German here! While the word „Vetter“ indeed is still used in German for “male cousin”, the word „Cousin“ is far more commonly used today. I think itʼs really interesting to use specific words to refer to the siblings of oneʼs parents, but call their respective spouse “uncle” or “aunt”. By the way, „Onkel“ and „Tante“ in German are exclusively used today. They come from French and originate in Latin (although Iʼm unsure where the latter came from). The old German words are forgotten
Yes they are, though I do mention that difference in the video. They're similar (I would argue) in that they're agent-centred. Interesting to hear more about this system in Danish and Norwegian and how often unofficial systems develop too, and how these have even made it into surnames. Especially how the old system is being expanded to incorporate new family structures and models with 'stedmor' and 'papmor.'
The use of the third-person address form extends even beyond family. In Frisian, you can also say “Wol dokter der eefkes nei sjen?” (Would doctor take a quick look?) and “Wol master it nochris útlizze?” (Would teacher explain it once more?).
It's very interesting to learn this as I had no clue that Frisian family relationship names were so complex. This got me thinking. I have never thought about how it's odd to use different words for family members other than the Ængalisc ones; I live in the U.S. but use Dutch family relationship names. I use Oma = Grandma, Opa = Grandpa, Tante = Aunt, Ome = Uncle, etc... without thinking about it. Does anyone else use Dutch or Frisian family names in the U.S.?
We have something similarish in Turkish to -sizzer thing in Frisian. We can call it “torun” (grandchild) or dedesi (literally his grandfather). Dedesi used as en par with torun. So when i wanted to speak about my grandchild I can call him with my own title. This works with all the relationship words. Mothers call their child (annesi or annem, literally his/her mom or my mother). I think it’s also exist in Arabic too. This alternative adds a bit sympathy to receiving part. Called Dedem by your grandfather means much love. The one you show respect by calling him Dede calls you dede too. 😊
I find it interesting how 'bern' is still very closely related to English, but in a different way. In English 'new born' is still used to refer to a baby, but a child isn't referred to as 'born'. English adopted a new word for a child which (I think) is related to the word used in Dutch (kind)
Child originates from proto-Germanic kelþaz wich means newborn, foetus. While Kind originates from kin (cognate with modern English kin), proto-germanic kindan, and is related to Latin gens/ gender. So child and kind have different etymology. In Old English itself the word for child is actually cynn, same as kind in Dutch and German. Somewhere in history in English the word cynn/kind was replaced by child
Hee, leuke video's! Ik weet als Nederlander minder van Fries dan ik zou willen, en nu leer ik eens wat. Klein dingetje wel: Je tekst rond 1:38 is beetje verwarrend gepresenteerd. Je zegt over pakesizzer en beppesizzer "this system doesn't exist in English" en je zegt dat om hetzelfde te doen in het Engels je "paternal grandmother and maternal grandmother" moet zeggen. Maar dat is duidelijk niet hetzelfde als pakesizzer en beppesizzer, die gaan alleen over het perspectief van de opa/oma, niet over dat van het kleinkind, zoals het geval is voor "maternal grandmother". Het is wél hetzelfde als het Zweedse morfar en farfar en zo, natuurlijk. Later blijkt dat je dat ook wel doorhebt, maar je zei het wel initieel fout (of minstens erg onduidelijk). Anyway, bedankt voor de video :)
In some dialects of Dutch (maybe only in Belgium) the word "oomzegger" is a thing but I've never heard anyone say "tantezegger" and I've only heard oomzegger when talking deliberately silly. Edit: fixed my terrible grammar
In my experience, _oomzegger_ is only used to distinguish cousins from nieces/nephews. In Dutch, we refer with _neef/nicht_ to both cousins and nieces/nephews.
Interesting video! As a Frisian person, there are a lot of things in this video that I don't use or have never heard of. I've never heard anyone saying pakesizzer or beppesizzer. And I never heard anyone saying "Us broer". I would say it's much more common to say "Myn broer". When I talk to my dad, I would never say "Hoe giet it mei heit?" either. I know some people do, but I don't. I'm not saying these things are wrong, but some of these things don't seem common from my experience.
Thank you! And I'm glad you brought this up and thought it would be something I'd have to address soon. I also noticed quite a discrepancy between a lot of spoken Frisian nowadays and the forms I learnt in Frisian classes and the forms I read in literature/attested in Frisian from before say the 1980s. Having lived among Frisians for a year (and longer contact before) I have heard everything I mentioned in the video, but I do agree that many Frisians nowadays will also use other words and forms. As far as I can see, all of these other forms are directly influenced from Dutch usage, ('tante', mijn vs onze, addressing parents with second person informal pronoun as I do with my mother in Dutch) and wanted to highlight instead the features that make Frisian unique rather than how it's being influenced by Dutch. This isn't to pass a value judgement on how people speak Frisian, though. Personally I try to speak without as many overt Dutch influences as I think Frisian's position as a unique minority language and reflection of centuries-old culture encoded within the language is threatened by the far more dominant position of the Dutch language at all levels of society. However, I understand that words like 'muoike' can now be seen as a bit old-fashioned and out of fashion, and there are always differences between the written or literate language and the contemporary spoken language. My only gripe is that almost every 'development' of Modern Frisian seems to be directly taken from Dutch, and so I question a little how much this is internal language change and how much this is the overwhelming pressure of the dominant language on the minority language. Anyway, I feel like a video on the subject would probably be a good idea to explain the situation a little better, but I appreciate you highlighting this in a comment!
Pakesizzer, beppesizzer, ús broer, suster, heit, mem binne foar Frysk pratende minsken hiel gewoan. En dat oansprekken yn tredde persoan krektlyk, ja sels typysk Frysk/Fryskeigen
@@markuserikssen It oansprekke yn tredde persoan is algemien gebrûklik yn it Frysk en der is krektlyn of wurdt ûndersyk nei dien. Sjoch taheakke link. Dat wol fansels net sizze dat eltsenien it [noch] brûkt. Mar as ik jo freegje mei; as kleinkinderen gjin pake en beppesizzers binne, hoe neame jo se dan?
@@HeuteElverdink Ik bin it folslein mei jo iens. Us broer, ús heit, ús mem, ús pake/beppe ensfh. is hjir ek hiel gewoan. Ik brûk it wurd bernsbern net sa faak, mar ik sis pake- en beppesizzers. Ik hear wolris Friezen dy't kleinkinderen of lytsbern sizze, mar dêr krij ik de kribels fan. Praat Frysk. En it oansprekken yn de tredde persoan is hjir ek hiel gewoan. Wol heit my ophelje? Hat hear X myn wurk neisjoen? Wol omke Sipke noch kofje? En sa kin ik noch wol efkes trochgean haha. Ik kom út de Wâlden.
Erg interessant met de sizzers struktuur. Heb ook al veel nagedacht over de gelijkenis met sommige friese worden vergeleken met de scandinavische zoals Zweeds, bijvoorbeeld bern - barn. Misschien een toekomsitige video waard?
Zeker interessant ja! In het geval van bern - barn, gaat het terug op een ouder Germaans woord die beide talen gemeen hadden. Zoals ik in de video ook al zei, bestaat het woord nogsteeds in meerdere dialekten in het Noorden van Engeland waaronder het Geordie (uit de buurt van Newcastle). Het Oudengels had het woord 'bearn', 'bern' maar buiten bepaalde dialekten en het Schots zijn de afstammelingen van het woord verdreven door 'child.' In het Nederlands en Hoog Duits is het door 'kind' verdreven, ook al is het woord 'gebaren' als in een kind baren vanouds verwant aan de zelfde wortel als die ons 'bern', 'bairn', 'barn' enz. geeft. Inderdaad leuk, ik zou wel een hele video hier over kunnen maken.
@@FrisianWithHilbert just! Ik vermoeden al dat ze een gemeenschappelijke Noord/West Germaanse taal oorsprong zouden hebben. Denk nog wel dat het intressant kan zijn om daar een video over ta maken om er eens echt diep in te duiken. Nooit beseft dat een kind 'baren' en bern/barn de zelfde woorden oorsprong heeft, maar nu dat je het benoemd lijkt het me wel vanzelf sprekend
@@FrisianWithHilbertik merk wel dat ik moet schakelen als ik over die soort onderwerpen praat in het Nederlands. Aangezien ik zoals de meeste mensen vast zullen hebben het meerendeel vanuit het Engels leer omdat er eenmaal meer en beter materiaal beschikbaar is. (Immers niet de eerste keer dat ik zoiets merk maar normaal is het meer politieke theorie or dergelijke. Inplaats van taalkunde)
In West Riding Yorkshire dialect although there isn't any difference with standard English as far as family tree names in structure but we do have some different words. The only difference structure-wise might be that I called my maternal grandmother "gronma" and my Paternal grandmother "nannan": - Nuncle for Uncle -Nont for Aunt - Nevvy for nephew (inherited from Old English) - Bairn/Barn for child We also use possessive pronouns when referring to family members or someone very close to oneself or to others. "Aar John's yonder" or "Thy Jim's bin on hallida, hes he?"
This is the first time I realize how often I don't speak Dutch but translated Frysian 🤣 "tante zegger" "uit van huis slapen" and way more than I can think of right now probably :) So funny, and the best thing is, everybody understands what I mean 🤣
Hahaha de moaiste Frisismes! Ik haw it sels ek meimakke doe't ik foar 't earst mear Frysk prate as Nederlânsk, doe begûnen der hieltiid mear Fryske foarms yn te krûpen. 'Zullen wij te lopen?' 'Ja, daar heb ik ook geweest.' 'Die ben ik nodig.' ensfh.
Is oomzegger en tantezegger wellicht Fries substraat in het Nederlands? Fries substraat in Gronings en Westfries komt veel voor maar in Nederlands veel minder.
Ik ha op dit stuit stazjêres, dy 't my yn de tredde persoan oansprekke. Dat is hjir hiel gewoan haha. Se wolle my net mei 'do' en 'jo' oansprekke ('do' is ûnfatsoenlik en 'jo' is te ôfstanlik) en dêrom brûke se myn namme yn de tredde persoan. En ik doch it ek by omkes, muoikes en by âldere bekenden. Sûnder derby nei te tinken. Typysk Frysk! 😁
@@LewisWirthDat kan ik wel begrijpen, want in de Engelse taal kennen ze maar één woord voor jij en u: you. In de Nederlandse vertaling wordt het onderscheid tussen jij en u overigens ook niet gemaakt. Jo lijkt (denk ik) teveel op het Nederlandse jou en wordt daardoor ook met jij vertaald. Verder ziet de vertaling er prima uit!
@ ja om dat preciezer te doen zou je iets als een AI nodig hebben die schattingen maakt op basis van wat je uit een vertaling zoekt want de omvorming naar de andere taal heeft vaak verschillende keuzes die het moet maken. Bijvoorbeeld tussen het uitleggen van de regels van de voertaal of het volgen van de regels van de eind taal. Zelf heb ik er vaak lat van dat met het leren van vreemde talen dat het minder een uitleg is van de betekenis van de taal die ik leer maar meer zoekt naar en zin die in het Engels of Nederlands correct klinkt ondanks dat dit achterliggende betekenis wegneemt
Interesting I only knew Pake Beppe Heit and Mem. Only used them with my grandparents on one side of the family though. Cause we didn’t live in Frisia even those grandparents didn’t anymore for my lifetime
@ De polder, ik stam af van Friezen die naar het nieuwe land zijn gegaan ik had vroeger verscheidene klasgenoten die met hun ouders altijd Fries spraken en dat zullen ze immers nog doen. Mijn ouders deden dat immers niet.
Yeah I knew where this was going, although muoike is maybe unfortunately dutchified into tante in most common speech although yeah muoike is still the official way to say it. Like harkje and lústerje with lústerje the Dutchified version. I know harkje is the official one, but honestly I only hear it on omrop Fryslân. And my mother still has muoike's, but I've got tante's and my omkesizzers have tantes. Honestly I don't know if you can revert back to the more Frisian versions now that the Dutchified versions of some words have almost all but replaced the Frisian versions of some words
Mien suske is mien suskesizzer, wêr ik r 1 fan haw, maar ik haw ek wol andere sibben, neat van bloed! (Echt wat n prachtig woord "Sibbe", het is al een paar jaar hoe ik naar mn nonbinaire matties refereer, tot op t punt dat ik het in het algemeen ook ipv broer of zus, begin te gebruiken.)
In medieval English literature (and presumably the culture it was written in), it was understood that a maternal uncle (brother of your mother) was a closer relationship than a paternal uncle (brother of your father) and there was a special word for it - middle English *eme* for a paternal uncle. So even English kin terms have changed over time.
In the case of West-fries it may be a remnant, although a few commentors from other areas of the Netherlands have also mentioned a similar structure in their dialects too.
That's very interesting. Thank you! İn our language, the kinship terms are generally genderless, with the obvious exception of mother and father of course. As for siblings, we do not distinguish they based on their gender, but on their age. So we use a word for "older sister/brother" and another word for "younger sister/brother". Daughter & Son are not differentiated. We basically only say "child". Other words that are gender neutral: sister/brother in law parent in law daughter/son in law we also have a word for the relationship between parents in law. so if Rut is married to Elisa, there's a word (also gender neutral) for the relationship between Rut's parents and Elisa's parents. Also gender neutral are: niece/nephew cousin (just like in English). İn our largest regional language, even the word for grandparents is gender neutral. We don't use direct "you" either talking to other people in our family. Except if they're younger than we. İ could never say "you" to my older sibling, for example.
We also say bairn/Bern for child in Yorkshire sometimes but I would say it's just dialect and more generational in my view. My boyfriend and his parents speak Frisian and the third person for parents threw me off 😂 I could understand everything but I knew to my brain it didn't feel right 😅😅
So was the word bern used in old english the same way? Because that slightly changes the meaning of the phrase "firstborn" to me. Like I always thought that was a special phrase just used to emphasize the fact that the oldest child was the heir. After hearing this, "born" might have just been the common word for child.
Yes it was, in Old English dependant on dialect it was either 'bern' or 'bearn.' The words 'born' and 'bern' are indeed related and from a Proto-Germanic root *beraną - so quite a long time back.
Quite a few dialects have plural you forms. My own dialect has "yous" which I even use in my Standard English because I find it helpful to distinguish.
Dat pakes, beppes, omkes en muoikes troch ús yn ‘e tredde persoan oansprutsen wurde (bgl. “Wie pake te fiskjen?” en “Wol muoike noch kofje?”) en dat wy foar har pakesizzers, muoikesizzers ensafh. binne, is eins net sa gek. It is ommers letterlik wat wy tsjin harren sizze!
Ik sprek myn baas op it wurk ek oan mei syn namme. "jo" brûk ik eins alinnich foar frjemden. Also, to me your accent sounds quite exagerated, it's really funny to hear.
This is not unique to Frisian, if you researched other Dutch dialect you would have known that the exact same family system and language is used outside of Frisian too.
Absolutely, that's why I mentioned similar things found in various English dialects and in Norwegian too. However, unlike with Dutch dialects, in Frisian, these are considered standard rather than dialectal.
![Gunna - HIM ALL ALONG [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/w7Wf0h1Q8a4/mqdefault.jpg)
Up Oosfräisk Plat: "bâab un mäem" (mom and dad) - also germanized "pâap un mâam", "mauder un fóóder" (mother and father), "bäep un besfóóer" (grandmother & grandfather) - also germanized "ooma un oopa", another frequent word for "bäep" is "oodje". Grandchildren are "kindskinner" - germanized "enkelkinner". "oomsäeger/unkelsäeger/möysäeger/tantsäeger" are obsolete, "nêev" and "niecht" are used. What's interesting is that we often say "us jung" or "us mauder" instead of "miin". Phrases like "wil mauder noch kofje" or even "wil nóóber noch wat eeten" also occur in East Frisian Plat and Saterland Frisian.
Could you add IPA transcription for the Frisian next time?
Will do me best!
In Low Saxon there are also strange things going on with possessives before kinship terms. Usually, gender is marked on possessives, but kinship terms are an exception: the same inflection is used for possessives before male and female family members
Interesting! I didn't know about that.
Two things:
The Danish (and Norwegian) farmor/farfar and mormor/morfar are very different from the Frisian, as they specify which parent they are parents of. As it used to be unusual for a grandchild to have a "full set" of living grandparents, the one or two alive would sometimes be referred to as bedstefar/bedstemor.
Also, we use 'fætter' for a male cousin, and 'kusine' for a female cousin, like in German I think. Although words like uncle 'onkel' and aunt 'tante' have been taken in (from German again?), for female siblings of the father and mother it is common to use 'faster' and 'moster' (obviously father's sister and mother's sister). Same goes for male siblings of parents, although 'onkel' is more common, 'morbror' and 'farbror' are sometimes used (again obvious), leaving the terms 'onkel' and 'tante' just for the _spouses_ of parent siblings. Finally, a person could refer to a nephew who is a brothers son as 'brorsøn' (again logic: brother's son. This has in some cases become a surname, like "Brorson", or "Brodersen", I guess.)
Regarding the use of third person for politeness, I remember seeing a video about this phenomenon in Sweden, where it had become so pervasive that it was problematic, as you could not talk to a person without knowing their title: "Vil herr Doktoren have kaffe?"
Btw, in Danish, after divorces and multiple sequential marriages became common, words for non-biological parents, or a biological parent's new spouse/partner were invented, much like stepmother 'stedmor' and stepfather 'stedfar': these are 'papmor' and 'papfar', which is literally _cardboard_ mom/dad. It may have originated as a mildly derogatory term, but I don't really know for sure.
Ok, that was three things.
German here!
While the word „Vetter“ indeed is still used in German for “male cousin”, the word „Cousin“ is far more commonly used today.
I think itʼs really interesting to use specific words to refer to the siblings of oneʼs parents, but call their respective spouse “uncle” or “aunt”. By the way, „Onkel“ and „Tante“ in German are exclusively used today. They come from French and originate in Latin (although Iʼm unsure where the latter came from). The old German words are forgotten
Yes they are, though I do mention that difference in the video. They're similar (I would argue) in that they're agent-centred.
Interesting to hear more about this system in Danish and Norwegian and how often unofficial systems develop too, and how these have even made it into surnames. Especially how the old system is being expanded to incorporate new family structures and models with 'stedmor' and 'papmor.'
The use of the third-person address form extends even beyond family. In Frisian, you can also say “Wol dokter der eefkes nei sjen?” (Would doctor take a quick look?) and “Wol master it nochris útlizze?” (Would teacher explain it once more?).
Ik wist niet dat dit zo werkte in het Fries. Het klinkt natuurlijk. Instinctief klinkt het beleefd.
Absolutely, something to include in a dedicated video to formality in Frisian :)
Damn, that's a cute and interesting way to talk about people in relation to you
I agree! Some of the fun quirks about Frisian.
It's very interesting to learn this as I had no clue that Frisian family relationship names were so complex.
This got me thinking. I have never thought about how it's odd to use different words for family members other than the Ængalisc ones; I live in the U.S. but use Dutch family relationship names. I use Oma = Grandma, Opa = Grandpa, Tante = Aunt, Ome = Uncle, etc... without thinking about it. Does anyone else use Dutch or Frisian family names in the U.S.?
We have something similarish in Turkish to -sizzer thing in Frisian. We can call it “torun” (grandchild) or dedesi (literally his grandfather). Dedesi used as en par with torun. So when i wanted to speak about my grandchild I can call him with my own title. This works with all the relationship words. Mothers call their child (annesi or annem, literally his/her mom or my mother).
I think it’s also exist in Arabic too.
This alternative adds a bit sympathy to receiving part. Called Dedem by your grandfather means much love. The one you show respect by calling him Dede calls you dede too. 😊
Woah really? Didn't know about that! Interesting that these systems exist in languages unrelated to Frisian as well :)
Baie dankie! Ek geniet dit regtig.
Groete uit Suid-Afrika 😊
I find it interesting how 'bern' is still very closely related to English, but in a different way. In English 'new born' is still used to refer to a baby, but a child isn't referred to as 'born'. English adopted a new word for a child which (I think) is related to the word used in Dutch (kind)
Child originates from proto-Germanic kelþaz wich means newborn, foetus. While Kind originates from kin (cognate with modern English kin), proto-germanic kindan, and is related to Latin gens/ gender.
So child and kind have different etymology.
In Old English itself the word for child is actually cynn, same as kind in Dutch and German.
Somewhere in history in English the word cynn/kind was replaced by child
@@tammo100 Oh, that's very interesting. Thanks for correcting me :D
Hee, leuke video's! Ik weet als Nederlander minder van Fries dan ik zou willen, en nu leer ik eens wat. Klein dingetje wel: Je tekst rond 1:38 is beetje verwarrend gepresenteerd. Je zegt over pakesizzer en beppesizzer "this system doesn't exist in English" en je zegt dat om hetzelfde te doen in het Engels je "paternal grandmother and maternal grandmother" moet zeggen. Maar dat is duidelijk niet hetzelfde als pakesizzer en beppesizzer, die gaan alleen over het perspectief van de opa/oma, niet over dat van het kleinkind, zoals het geval is voor "maternal grandmother". Het is wél hetzelfde als het Zweedse morfar en farfar en zo, natuurlijk. Later blijkt dat je dat ook wel doorhebt, maar je zei het wel initieel fout (of minstens erg onduidelijk). Anyway, bedankt voor de video :)
In some dialects of Dutch (maybe only in Belgium) the word "oomzegger" is a thing but I've never heard anyone say "tantezegger" and I've only heard oomzegger when talking deliberately silly.
Edit: fixed my terrible grammar
En in Nederland wel een schoonzus maar geen schoonbroer..dat is dan een zwager. In België dan weer wel :)
In my experience, _oomzegger_ is only used to distinguish cousins from nieces/nephews. In Dutch, we refer with _neef/nicht_ to both cousins and nieces/nephews.
Interesting video! As a Frisian person, there are a lot of things in this video that I don't use or have never heard of. I've never heard anyone saying pakesizzer or beppesizzer. And I never heard anyone saying "Us broer". I would say it's much more common to say "Myn broer". When I talk to my dad, I would never say "Hoe giet it mei heit?" either. I know some people do, but I don't. I'm not saying these things are wrong, but some of these things don't seem common from my experience.
Thank you! And I'm glad you brought this up and thought it would be something I'd have to address soon.
I also noticed quite a discrepancy between a lot of spoken Frisian nowadays and the forms I learnt in Frisian classes and the forms I read in literature/attested in Frisian from before say the 1980s.
Having lived among Frisians for a year (and longer contact before) I have heard everything I mentioned in the video, but I do agree that many Frisians nowadays will also use other words and forms. As far as I can see, all of these other forms are directly influenced from Dutch usage, ('tante', mijn vs onze, addressing parents with second person informal pronoun as I do with my mother in Dutch) and wanted to highlight instead the features that make Frisian unique rather than how it's being influenced by Dutch.
This isn't to pass a value judgement on how people speak Frisian, though. Personally I try to speak without as many overt Dutch influences as I think Frisian's position as a unique minority language and reflection of centuries-old culture encoded within the language is threatened by the far more dominant position of the Dutch language at all levels of society. However, I understand that words like 'muoike' can now be seen as a bit old-fashioned and out of fashion, and there are always differences between the written or literate language and the contemporary spoken language. My only gripe is that almost every 'development' of Modern Frisian seems to be directly taken from Dutch, and so I question a little how much this is internal language change and how much this is the overwhelming pressure of the dominant language on the minority language.
Anyway, I feel like a video on the subject would probably be a good idea to explain the situation a little better, but I appreciate you highlighting this in a comment!
Pakesizzer, beppesizzer, ús broer, suster, heit, mem binne foar Frysk pratende minsken hiel gewoan. En dat oansprekken yn tredde persoan krektlyk, ja sels typysk Frysk/Fryskeigen
@@HeuteElverdink Miskien komt it foar yn bepaalde kringen. Ik werken my der net hielendal yn.
@@markuserikssen It oansprekke yn tredde persoan is algemien gebrûklik yn it Frysk en der is krektlyn of wurdt ûndersyk nei dien. Sjoch taheakke link. Dat wol fansels net sizze dat eltsenien it [noch] brûkt. Mar as ik jo freegje mei; as kleinkinderen gjin pake en beppesizzers binne, hoe neame jo se dan?
@@HeuteElverdink Ik bin it folslein mei jo iens. Us broer, ús heit, ús mem, ús pake/beppe ensfh. is hjir ek hiel gewoan. Ik brûk it wurd bernsbern net sa faak, mar ik sis pake- en beppesizzers. Ik hear wolris Friezen dy't kleinkinderen of lytsbern sizze, mar dêr krij ik de kribels fan. Praat Frysk. En it oansprekken yn de tredde persoan is hjir ek hiel gewoan. Wol heit my ophelje? Hat hear X myn wurk neisjoen? Wol omke Sipke noch kofje? En sa kin ik noch wol efkes trochgean haha. Ik kom út de Wâlden.
Erg interessant met de sizzers struktuur. Heb ook al veel nagedacht over de gelijkenis met sommige friese worden vergeleken met de scandinavische zoals Zweeds, bijvoorbeeld bern - barn. Misschien een toekomsitige video waard?
Zeker interessant ja! In het geval van bern - barn, gaat het terug op een ouder Germaans woord die beide talen gemeen hadden. Zoals ik in de video ook al zei, bestaat het woord nogsteeds in meerdere dialekten in het Noorden van Engeland waaronder het Geordie (uit de buurt van Newcastle).
Het Oudengels had het woord 'bearn', 'bern' maar buiten bepaalde dialekten en het Schots zijn de afstammelingen van het woord verdreven door 'child.' In het Nederlands en Hoog Duits is het door 'kind' verdreven, ook al is het woord 'gebaren' als in een kind baren vanouds verwant aan de zelfde wortel als die ons 'bern', 'bairn', 'barn' enz. geeft.
Inderdaad leuk, ik zou wel een hele video hier over kunnen maken.
@@FrisianWithHilbert just! Ik vermoeden al dat ze een gemeenschappelijke Noord/West Germaanse taal oorsprong zouden hebben. Denk nog wel dat het intressant kan zijn om daar een video over ta maken om er eens echt diep in te duiken.
Nooit beseft dat een kind 'baren' en bern/barn de zelfde woorden oorsprong heeft, maar nu dat je het benoemd lijkt het me wel vanzelf sprekend
@@FrisianWithHilbertik merk wel dat ik moet schakelen als ik over die soort onderwerpen praat in het Nederlands. Aangezien ik zoals de meeste mensen vast zullen hebben het meerendeel vanuit het Engels leer omdat er eenmaal meer en beter materiaal beschikbaar is. (Immers niet de eerste keer dat ik zoiets merk maar normaal is het meer politieke theorie or dergelijke. Inplaats van taalkunde)
In West Riding Yorkshire dialect although there isn't any difference with standard English as far as family tree names in structure but we do have some different words. The only difference structure-wise might be that I called my maternal grandmother "gronma" and my Paternal grandmother "nannan":
- Nuncle for Uncle
-Nont for Aunt
- Nevvy for nephew (inherited from Old English)
- Bairn/Barn for child
We also use possessive pronouns when referring to family members or someone very close to oneself or to others. "Aar John's yonder" or "Thy Jim's bin on hallida, hes he?"
Interesting, I didn't know about that! Same with 'nevvy' coming from Old English. Sounds like the Dutch word 'neef' for nephew/male cousin.
@FrisianWithHilbert I've read in East Yorkshire the traditional word for uncle is "eeam", so the Old English word rather than the French loan
Love the IT Crowd reference.
Thought it was the perfect moment to add it ;)
2:26 MOTHER MOTHER MENTIONED
WHAT THE HELL IS A BAD SONG 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔 🏳️🌈🐟
This is the first time I realize how often I don't speak Dutch but translated Frysian 🤣 "tante zegger" "uit van huis slapen" and way more than I can think of right now probably :) So funny, and the best thing is, everybody understands what I mean 🤣
Hahaha de moaiste Frisismes! Ik haw it sels ek meimakke doe't ik foar 't earst mear Frysk prate as Nederlânsk, doe begûnen der hieltiid mear Fryske foarms yn te krûpen. 'Zullen wij te lopen?' 'Ja, daar heb ik ook geweest.' 'Die ben ik nodig.' ensfh.
@FrisianWithHilbert jawis🤗 op bed gaan, koekjes die slof zijn, skitterend 😂😂
“Het lacht me zuiver aan!”
“U bent weer te plek”
“Mijn haar zit in de tijs”
@@Biesjager ja psies, te plek, :)
Is oomzegger en tantezegger wellicht Fries substraat in het Nederlands? Fries substraat in Gronings en Westfries komt veel voor maar in Nederlands veel minder.
Ik ha op dit stuit stazjêres, dy 't my yn de tredde persoan oansprekke. Dat is hjir hiel gewoan haha. Se wolle my net mei 'do' en 'jo' oansprekke ('do' is ûnfatsoenlik en 'jo' is te ôfstanlik) en dêrom brûke se myn namme yn de tredde persoan. En ik doch it ek by omkes, muoikes en by âldere bekenden. Sûnder derby nei te tinken. Typysk Frysk! 😁
Lekker hoe die Engelse vertaling geen onderscheid kan maken tussen do en jo. Maar toch ook indrukwekkend dat het ‘t Frysk herkennen en vertalen kan
@@LewisWirthDat kan ik wel begrijpen, want in de Engelse taal kennen ze maar één woord voor jij en u: you. In de Nederlandse vertaling wordt het onderscheid tussen jij en u overigens ook niet gemaakt. Jo lijkt (denk ik) teveel op het Nederlandse jou en wordt daardoor ook met jij vertaald. Verder ziet de vertaling er prima uit!
@ ja om dat preciezer te doen zou je iets als een AI nodig hebben die schattingen maakt op basis van wat je uit een vertaling zoekt want de omvorming naar de andere taal heeft vaak verschillende keuzes die het moet maken. Bijvoorbeeld tussen het uitleggen van de regels van de voertaal of het volgen van de regels van de eind taal. Zelf heb ik er vaak lat van dat met het leren van vreemde talen dat het minder een uitleg is van de betekenis van de taal die ik leer maar meer zoekt naar en zin die in het Engels of Nederlands correct klinkt ondanks dat dit achterliggende betekenis wegneemt
Interesting I only knew Pake Beppe Heit and Mem. Only used them with my grandparents on one side of the family though. Cause we didn’t live in Frisia even those grandparents didn’t anymore for my lifetime
Interesting! Whereabouts did you grow up?
@ De polder, ik stam af van Friezen die naar het nieuwe land zijn gegaan ik had vroeger verscheidene klasgenoten die met hun ouders altijd Fries spraken en dat zullen ze immers nog doen. Mijn ouders deden dat immers niet.
Yeah I knew where this was going, although muoike is maybe unfortunately dutchified into tante in most common speech although yeah muoike is still the official way to say it. Like harkje and lústerje with lústerje the Dutchified version. I know harkje is the official one, but honestly I only hear it on omrop Fryslân. And my mother still has muoike's, but I've got tante's and my omkesizzers have tantes.
Honestly I don't know if you can revert back to the more Frisian versions now that the Dutchified versions of some words have almost all but replaced the Frisian versions of some words
Ik ha oan de iene kant tantes en oan de oare muoikes
Mien suske is mien suskesizzer, wêr ik r 1 fan haw, maar ik haw ek wol andere sibben, neat van bloed!
(Echt wat n prachtig woord "Sibbe", het is al een paar jaar hoe ik naar mn nonbinaire matties refereer, tot op t punt dat ik het in het algemeen ook ipv broer of zus, begin te gebruiken.)
Jawis! En fansels ek besibbe (doch ik it wer) oan it Ingelske 'sibling.'
In medieval English literature (and presumably the culture it was written in), it was understood that a maternal uncle (brother of your mother) was a closer relationship than a paternal uncle (brother of your father) and there was a special word for it - middle English *eme* for a paternal uncle.
So even English kin terms have changed over time.
In west frisian we have the term oom zeggers, could that be a dutchified version of the frisian system?
In the case of West-fries it may be a remnant, although a few commentors from other areas of the Netherlands have also mentioned a similar structure in their dialects too.
That's very interesting. Thank you!
İn our language, the kinship terms are generally genderless, with the obvious exception of mother and father of course.
As for siblings, we do not distinguish they based on their gender, but on their age.
So we use
a word for "older sister/brother" and
another word for "younger sister/brother".
Daughter & Son are not differentiated. We basically only say "child".
Other words that are gender neutral:
sister/brother in law
parent in law
daughter/son in law
we also have a word for the relationship between parents in law. so if Rut is married to Elisa, there's a word (also gender neutral) for the relationship between Rut's parents and Elisa's parents.
Also gender neutral are:
niece/nephew
cousin (just like in English).
İn our largest regional language, even the word for grandparents is gender neutral.
We don't use direct "you" either talking to other people in our family. Except if they're younger than we.
İ could never say "you" to my older sibling, for example.
So when does an only child need to say where their brother is?
Good point, although what I meant to say was that they would refer to their parents with 'ús' (our) even if they're an only child.
We also say bairn/Bern for child in Yorkshire sometimes but I would say it's just dialect and more generational in my view. My boyfriend and his parents speak Frisian and the third person for parents threw me off 😂 I could understand everything but I knew to my brain it didn't feel right 😅😅
Glad to hear I'm not the only one using 'bairn'/'bern' on both sides of the North Sea! It can take some time to get used to the different system!
So was the word bern used in old english the same way? Because that slightly changes the meaning of the phrase "firstborn" to me. Like I always thought that was a special phrase just used to emphasize the fact that the oldest child was the heir. After hearing this, "born" might have just been the common word for child.
Yes it was, in Old English dependant on dialect it was either 'bern' or 'bearn.' The words 'born' and 'bern' are indeed related and from a Proto-Germanic root *beraną - so quite a long time back.
In het Brababts zeggen we ook "ons pap" en "ons mam". Dat lijkt op "us heit" en "us mem".
Interessant!
There is another you in hiberno-english, especially plural - ye. There's also an informal yiz, or yizzer for 'your'
Quite a few dialects have plural you forms. My own dialect has "yous" which I even use in my Standard English because I find it helpful to distinguish.
Can I also call my parents an: "Ús Tseard sizzer?"
Alle minsken binne jaepsizzers :)
I am bothered by the Dutch spelling of Oane in this video
Might just be me but I do pronounce the two differently, Anne being less, and Oane more rounded.
How do in-laws work?
Skoanheit,skoanmem
Dejingen dy't net neamd wurde.
Dat pakes, beppes, omkes en muoikes troch ús yn ‘e tredde persoan oansprutsen wurde (bgl. “Wie pake te fiskjen?” en “Wol muoike noch kofje?”) en dat wy foar har pakesizzers, muoikesizzers ensafh. binne, is eins net sa gek. It is ommers letterlik wat wy tsjin harren sizze!
Ik sprek myn baas op it wurk ek oan mei syn namme. "jo" brûk ik eins alinnich foar frjemden.
Also, to me your accent sounds quite exagerated, it's really funny to hear.
Haha quite possibly as I want to pronounce as clearly as possible for people trying to learn the sounds of Frisian.
This is not unique to Frisian, if you researched other Dutch dialect you would have known that the exact same family system and language is used outside of Frisian too.
Absolutely, that's why I mentioned similar things found in various English dialects and in Norwegian too. However, unlike with Dutch dialects, in Frisian, these are considered standard rather than dialectal.