Great demo, we used to put the vibration detector on iphone to test naza motor vibes when props were never balanced out of the box. I would note that Tmotor and FPVmodel prop adapters that have the 4 screws can create horrible high P type wobbles so looking at spinners or nuts can show this type of imbalance if looked at while hovering. Weeks of tuning and motor swapping taught me that, I remounted the adapter and the vibes were gone.
Agree with the T-Motors prop adapter, i noticed the same thing too, that was i started to use exclusively T-Motors props with T-Motors motors in oder to avoid them but hey expensive hobby doesn't it...
Joshua Bardwell I've seen you use little O-Rings to limit the vibration. my question is what size are they and where did you get them? Thanks you for all the great content!
Hi Josh... Looking at your video, I have a problem.... Just started working with BetaFlight, and when I go into the Motors tab, I have Gyro instead of accelerometer. And on top of that, even with no movement of the motors... Gyro jumps around a lot (May not be a lot... Just have nothing to compare it with.) So 2 questions... Can I change the screen in my motors tab so it shows acc? and is a value of around 3.5 normal for the Gyro at rest?Thanks Steve
+Stephen Sweeney thru seem to have changed it to gyro. Gyro data is still usable but the scaling may be different. Just change the y-axis scaling if you can.
Hey Joshua it is hard you have alot of videos with blackbox. I just have a simple question related to motors and Max motor noise. I have enabled PT1 and when I look at the analyzer it only goes up to 125khz unlike 4000 like before. My question being, reading the max engine noise, I can read motor 1,2,3, and 4 looks the highest and I can read the first digit and not the rest. What is the average Max motor noise you mostly see, and do bent or out of balance props effect the noise? Obviously.. So I check the 4 motors in betaflight with the props off, storage charged 3cell, Smoke stopper and each motor in the Accel only go to .01 maybe .02 on one motor.(10000hz) So I am leaning towards a prop issue. Thanks for your patience. Thanks -Brandon
Here's another aspect that ties into the discussion mounting an XT-60 directly to the PCB or a FCB. A new build may not have any issues with vibrating off the battery's male plug, but once, as you say, 'ding the motors' one or more times, while it may not effect the flight characteristics because of filtering/tuning, it can be enough to work the plug loose. And that's where I learned to not to hard mount the male plug. I was getting a rare separation, then it grew to like every fourth pack as my Alien got older. I suspect I was passing through resonance regions and lingering in them a bit more than another flight.
Hi Joshua, I have a question that I'm hoping you can shed some light on. I have a quad that's getting weird vibrations at low throttle that completely disappear when i raise the throttle. Would you have any idea what could cause that? I crashed a few weeks back which is when it started, to my knowledge, but everything seems fine and the crash wasn't even bad. Nothing is damaged, there's no visible cracks or bends in my frame (QAV210), I've made sure all my screws and bolts are tight, I've replaced my props, I've even gone as far as replacing all four motors and the vibrations are still there. It happens when taking off and hovering, but as soon as I give it some throttle and fly around a bit it goes away then comes back when I go back to hovering. I'm confused.
...trying to establish just how good BF 2.7.1 is. On the MOKA 250 it looks perfect so far. This will help rule out any motor induced behavior...thanks again!
Is there any premade cable I can buy like your lightbulb cable to limit the volts? I am not comfortable or experienced enough to do that myself but am not sure what I would be searching for/what it's called.
No. You just build your own. Get an automotive tail light socket such as perhaps this: www.amazon.com/Dorman-923-034-Tail-Lamp-Socket/dp/B000TYSBYY Then solder it up and insert a tail light. Or just solder directly to the tail light and skip the socket, which is what I did.
hello joshua. thanks angain for everything. question: onmy last version of betaflight 3.1.6 i think ( at the 27/03/17) in the motor menu, I only see the gyro (which take the place of the accelerometer). I dont know where to look for the acc. at the sensor? i did it but i don't know how to reset it. any idea?
I'm on my first build. Tarot iron man 650, Tmotor MN2212 920KV 10' PROPS, HGRLC Titan 4 in 1 (feel like I shoulda went individual escs) 4S 1500 bat. Screws are all tight, but I get rattle sounds all over the thing when I tgrottle up. I also feel as if I shoulda had a smaller craft as first. It has tipped and props brike maybe twice, but not a hard fall and throtle backed off. Bouncing from a land
is it possible to have so much motor vibration that it would throw the fc off. reason I ask is I just built my first quad and after arming, very slowly roll up trhottle and quad goes to full throttle. It shoots stright up in the air so I am convinced it is not a motor direction or prop installation issue. it moves how it should in betaflight orientation page. Have checked all settings 100 times in betaflight....any ideas???
First, check the receiver channel endpoints. ruclips.net/video/PCLxyurZsD0/видео.html If it goes straight up, then I agree it's probably not one of the "taz" issues. It could be vibration. If you suspect vibration, set D gain to zero (just for troubleshooting, not permanently) and if it stops flying away, then it's vibration.
Hi Joshua , You are really doing a good job with your video's ! , You explain things that even i can understand it :) Just a little off topic question here : What mount are you using for the YI , i am always having trouble to mount it... Thanks from out The Netherlands
Mr. Bardwell, When i tried this my X,Y,Z readings would never settle even when perfectly still motors disabled. Is my controller faulty SP F3 MPU 6050? I tried changing scale and time. Reset does not seem to zero either but i think its just the noise is constant. Maytec OSDPDB is where i am getting 5v from. Quad flies OK. It does dip to the rear if air mode is off and throttle is cut. min. Throttle 1175 and balance should be good on a realacc 210 frame and multiple packs. Its just kinda strange, Thank you love your work.
What's better? Lowering gyro_lowpass or lowering D gain? I found that a copter with motor vibrations can result in funny twichty sounds, if there is not enough filtering and if the D gain is high. Adding filtering or lowering the D significantly seems to resolve the issue, so I'm not sure what's better. I'm also waiting for vibration damps, and I was wondering, whether the dampers may result in a more slushy coper, because it may also damp actual movement?
can you do a video on cli commands? cool tricks, settings you can change, things you can look at. this was a cool video and love learning things. Cannot get enough of your videos. thank you.
This is a helpful video. Have you ever thought about revisiting some of these topics using the newer versions of Betaflight/Cleanflight? I know its hard with all the constant updates, but at least you will never have a shortage of topics for your videos. Thank you for everything. I know youre busy....... have you ever thought about starting a company with employees? You already have the fan base and everybody knows that you are the fpv know it all, so if you designed a "JB" flight controller or something, im pretty sure that everybody would buy it. Not only because you are trusted for your scientific testing method, but also for the online support (which is probably your best feature). Sorry for rambling. I just followed this link from the Betaflight wiki. Back to reading.
Wouldn't this test be irrelevant with the current limiting bulb inline? As the bulb is lighting up before you get to max revs you are not doing a true test as the ESC cannot pull enough amps to spin the motor correctly. Depending on the ESC I imagine you may end up with jitter as it tries to drive the motor faster but cannot. I would be interested to see if you get the same results with a battery connected directly.
All that happens with the bulb in line is that the voltage drops, similar to battery sag. It's not always safe to spin motors with props off at full throttle. If you feel like the test is more valuable without current limiting, you can run it that way.
+Joshua Bardwell Correct, but that same drop would mean the motor doesn't spin up the same as it would with a direct battery. I just did this myself with near new RS2205 motors and tested back and forth. I got repeatable .02 difference. Why? I've no exact idea, but I suspect the ESC of course. How much difference does this practically make? Probably none :)
I noticed that everytime you went into CLI tab, on the first line there is some strange characters, i noticed same thing recently when i was flashing couple of my FCs, i never paid attention to this before, do you know what is the cause of this? Does some aliens are trying to communicate with us through the CLI tab of Cleanflight :O Happy sunday McGuyver
Interesting video. I would love to do that test with my F40 unfornately I am running Kiss FC now all over the place. What is that black thing on the side of your cam? It is masking the lumenier font.
Ah ok that is what I guessed but I wasn't sure. Thanks. That is the only thing I don't like about the QAVR, there is no way to fix the camera. I am currently not using any ziptie etc. Because pulling the cam up against the top plate gives me a too large of an angle. For "acro" flight I am more comfortable with something around 25°
Hi Joshua and others! Who want to see accelerometer again in their motors tab just download BF configurator 1.8.4, add it to chrome as unpacked extension and launch it. Tested on Naze32 + BF 3.1.7 BF configurator can be found here - github.com/betaflight/betaflight-configurator/archive/v1.8.4.zip
So how do you tune around a brand new motor that has some vibrations? Any material I can watch or read through to understand? I could not hear this "vibration" or thrill in the sound the motors make with the previous (and less powerful) motors...: ruclips.net/video/0zoNQmMxeS8/видео.html
Well, to be honest if a brand new motor had excess vibration I would replace it. But maybe if it's not too bad you could try balancing it with some tape. That's how we used to do it. To tune around vibration you increase filtering and lower D gain. But if the vibration is very bad, there isn't anything you can do to fix it.
Hi Joshua, So I have been trying to perform these tests but i can never get my accelerometer to calm down. This video ruclips.net/video/aLW7qNgfO-k/видео.html I have posted to youtube shows you the readings I get. This is just a flight controller sat on my table, there is no quad. I find all of my quads do similar things when I connect then to my computer and try these tests you talk about. Any idea whats going on? interestingly enough I get the same readings regardless of weather a disable or enable the accelerometer on the FC. The big jumps you see on the video are me tapping the FC with my finger. Any ideas ?
Unfortunately, Betaflight changed the Motors tab from Accelerometer to Gyro, and the resultin information is useless. I wish they would change it back.
![OhGeesy x Lefty Gunplay - What It Iz [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/L0yzW9t2ixk/mqdefault.jpg)
Great demo, we used to put the vibration detector on iphone to test naza motor vibes when props were never balanced out of the box. I would note that Tmotor and FPVmodel prop adapters that have the 4 screws can create horrible high P type wobbles so looking at spinners or nuts can show this type of imbalance if looked at while hovering. Weeks of tuning and motor swapping taught me that, I remounted the adapter and the vibes were gone.
Agree with the T-Motors prop adapter, i noticed the same thing too, that was i started to use exclusively T-Motors props with T-Motors motors in oder to avoid them but hey expensive hobby doesn't it...
Really enjoy all your vids....You have a way of explaining things that makes it really fun to learn! Thanks Josh.
Joshua Bardwell I've seen you use little O-Rings to limit the vibration. my question is what size are they and where did you get them?
Thanks you for all the great content!
I really like the bell design of those motors. Look great, like a rim on a car. And strong to boot.
Hi Josh... Looking at your video, I have a problem.... Just started working with BetaFlight, and when I go into the Motors tab, I have Gyro instead of accelerometer. And on top of that, even with no movement of the motors... Gyro jumps around a lot (May not be a lot... Just have nothing to compare it with.) So 2 questions... Can I change the screen in my motors tab so it shows acc? and is a value of around 3.5 normal for the Gyro at rest?Thanks Steve
+Stephen Sweeney thru seem to have changed it to gyro. Gyro data is still usable but the scaling may be different. Just change the y-axis scaling if you can.
Hey Joshua it is hard you have alot of videos with blackbox. I just have a simple question related to motors and Max motor noise. I have enabled PT1 and when I look at the analyzer it only goes up to 125khz unlike 4000 like before. My question being, reading the max engine noise, I can read motor 1,2,3, and 4 looks the highest and I can read the first digit and not the rest. What is the average Max motor noise you mostly see, and do bent or out of balance props effect the noise? Obviously.. So I check the 4 motors in betaflight with the props off, storage charged 3cell, Smoke stopper and each motor in the Accel only go to .01 maybe .02 on one motor.(10000hz) So I am leaning towards a prop issue. Thanks for your patience. Thanks -Brandon
Here's another aspect that ties into the discussion mounting an XT-60 directly to the PCB or a FCB.
A new build may not have any issues with vibrating off the battery's male plug, but once, as you say, 'ding the motors' one or more times, while it may not effect the flight characteristics because of filtering/tuning, it can be enough to work the plug loose.
And that's where I learned to not to hard mount the male plug. I was getting a rare separation, then it grew to like every fourth pack as my Alien got older. I suspect I was passing through resonance regions and lingering in them a bit more than another flight.
Hi Joshua, I have a question that I'm hoping you can shed some light on. I have a quad that's getting weird vibrations at low throttle that completely disappear when i raise the throttle. Would you have any idea what could cause that? I crashed a few weeks back which is when it started, to my knowledge, but everything seems fine and the crash wasn't even bad. Nothing is damaged, there's no visible cracks or bends in my frame (QAV210), I've made sure all my screws and bolts are tight, I've replaced my props, I've even gone as far as replacing all four motors and the vibrations are still there. It happens when taking off and hovering, but as soon as I give it some throttle and fly around a bit it goes away then comes back when I go back to hovering. I'm confused.
It's probably your camera is loose. Lens. Sensor element. Something like that.
i have similar issue, i get vibrations at mid throttle and i see that in motor tab too! at hight throttle, it is smooth. what could be the reason
lol.... oh josh you crack me up...... " ahh, dang nabbit... I can't resist me some science."....lmao
...trying to establish just how good BF 2.7.1 is. On the MOKA 250 it looks perfect so far. This will help rule out any motor induced behavior...thanks again!
+FusionFPV it's really good.
Did you test with any dampening on the FC?
Just Posted a video from stock PID test....seams really good!
Thanks, you just help out explaining that low pass command. I need to troll around your videos man. Lots of good information.
Welcome to the channel!
Is there any premade cable I can buy like your lightbulb cable to limit the volts? I am not comfortable or experienced enough to do that myself but am not sure what I would be searching for/what it's called.
No. You just build your own. Get an automotive tail light socket such as perhaps this: www.amazon.com/Dorman-923-034-Tail-Lamp-Socket/dp/B000TYSBYY
Then solder it up and insert a tail light. Or just solder directly to the tail light and skip the socket, which is what I did.
Great idea to "baseline" the setup with new motors... also like your new ESCs too :)
hello joshua. thanks angain for everything.
question: onmy last version of betaflight 3.1.6 i think ( at the 27/03/17) in the motor menu, I only see the gyro (which take the place of the accelerometer). I dont know where to look for the acc. at the sensor? i did it but i don't know how to reset it. any idea?
Yeah, they changed it to the gyro. I don't think you can see the acc any more on that page.
Hi Joshua, could you tell me, how I check for motor vibrations, as in the motors tab now the gyro data is shown and not the acc data?
Well, generally the same process but the numbers are going to be different and I don't have a suggestion for what is a good or bad number :-(
Alright. Thanks anyways. =)
Love your retro LED. Concerned that if you bust the filament in the air the smoke will come out.
+Dirty Robot not sure what you mean.
Sorry, thought that big light bulb was your lighting rig. :(
It's a smoke-stopper: ruclips.net/video/4z7yRG56aKM/видео.html
I'm on my first build. Tarot iron man 650, Tmotor MN2212 920KV 10' PROPS, HGRLC Titan 4 in 1 (feel like I shoulda went individual escs) 4S 1500 bat. Screws are all tight, but I get rattle sounds all over the thing when I tgrottle up. I also feel as if I shoulda had a smaller craft as first. It has tipped and props brike maybe twice, but not a hard fall and throtle backed off. Bouncing from a land
is it possible to have so much motor vibration that it would throw the fc off. reason I ask is I just built my first quad and after arming, very slowly roll up trhottle and quad goes to full throttle. It shoots stright up in the air so I am convinced it is not a motor direction or prop installation issue. it moves how it should in betaflight orientation page. Have checked all settings 100 times in betaflight....any ideas???
First, check the receiver channel endpoints.
ruclips.net/video/PCLxyurZsD0/видео.html
If it goes straight up, then I agree it's probably not one of the "taz" issues. It could be vibration. If you suspect vibration, set D gain to zero (just for troubleshooting, not permanently) and if it stops flying away, then it's vibration.
Hi Joshua , You are really doing a good job with your video's ! , You explain things that even i can understand it :) Just a little off topic question here : What mount are you using for the YI , i am always having trouble to mount it... Thanks from out The Netherlands
ruclips.net/video/PCBeoWPttQY/видео.html
+Joshua Bardwell thank you so much :)
Great way to check motors....checking mine out now...
Mr. Bardwell, When i tried this my X,Y,Z readings would never settle even when perfectly still motors disabled. Is my controller faulty SP F3 MPU 6050? I tried changing scale and time. Reset does not seem to zero either but i think its just the noise is constant. Maytec OSDPDB is where i am getting 5v from. Quad flies OK. It does dip to the rear if air mode is off and throttle is cut. min. Throttle 1175 and balance should be good on a realacc 210 frame and multiple packs. Its just kinda strange, Thank you love your work.
Your controller is fine. The BF devs changed the Motor tab from accelerometer to gyro and the readout is different.
Thank you,
What's better? Lowering gyro_lowpass or lowering D gain? I found that a copter with motor vibrations can result in funny twichty sounds, if there is not enough filtering and if the D gain is high. Adding filtering or lowering the D significantly seems to resolve the issue, so I'm not sure what's better. I'm also waiting for vibration damps, and I was wondering, whether the dampers may result in a more slushy coper, because it may also damp actual movement?
+fluttershy77x I think lower D.
can you do a video on cli commands? cool tricks, settings you can change, things you can look at. this was a cool video and love learning things. Cannot get enough of your videos. thank you.
+frogs84ss for now... github.com/borisbstyle/betaflight/wiki/Betaflight-specific-CLI-commands
+Joshua Bardwell thank you!
acro flight has acc disabled, why you would use the acc_lpf_hz ?
Just wondering why you use such a high kv motor for 5inch props?
+Wesley Matthews because it goes faster and makes more thrust, at acceptable efficiency and current.
This is a helpful video. Have you ever thought about revisiting some of these topics using the newer versions of Betaflight/Cleanflight? I know its hard with all the constant updates, but at least you will never have a shortage of topics for your videos. Thank you for everything. I know youre busy....... have you ever thought about starting a company with employees? You already have the fan base and everybody knows that you are the fpv know it all, so if you designed a "JB" flight controller or something, im pretty sure that everybody would buy it. Not only because you are trusted for your scientific testing method, but also for the online support (which is probably your best feature). Sorry for rambling. I just followed this link from the Betaflight wiki. Back to reading.
Wouldn't this test be irrelevant with the current limiting bulb inline? As the bulb is lighting up before you get to max revs you are not doing a true test as the ESC cannot pull enough amps to spin the motor correctly. Depending on the ESC I imagine you may end up with jitter as it tries to drive the motor faster but cannot. I would be interested to see if you get the same results with a battery connected directly.
All that happens with the bulb in line is that the voltage drops, similar to battery sag. It's not always safe to spin motors with props off at full throttle. If you feel like the test is more valuable without current limiting, you can run it that way.
+Joshua Bardwell Correct, but that same drop would mean the motor doesn't spin up the same as it would with a direct battery. I just did this myself with near new RS2205 motors and tested back and forth. I got repeatable .02 difference. Why? I've no exact idea, but I suspect the ESC of course. How much difference does this practically make? Probably none :)
I noticed that everytime you went into CLI tab, on the first line there is some strange characters, i noticed same thing recently when i was flashing couple of my FCs, i never paid attention to this before, do you know what is the cause of this?
Does some aliens are trying to communicate with us through the CLI tab of Cleanflight :O
Happy sunday McGuyver
It's some kind of garbage data on the serial line, but I don't know what causes it.
Joshua Bardwell Thanks for your answer, i will stick with my alien explanation so :)
Interesting video. I would love to do that test with my F40 unfornately I am running Kiss FC now all over the place. What is that black thing on the side of your cam? It is masking the lumenier font.
I'm not sure what you mean. Which black thing?
On the right wall of the camera mount there is a black thing masking the "lumenier" written on it. Is it a cable tie? What is it doing there?
That's a zip tie. It is going underneath my FVP cam to hold it up against the top plate so the angle doesn't change.
Ah ok that is what I guessed but I wasn't sure. Thanks. That is the only thing I don't like about the QAVR, there is no way to fix the camera. I am currently not using any ziptie etc. Because pulling the cam up against the top plate gives me a too large of an angle. For "acro" flight I am more comfortable with something around 25°
+RC Enthusiast have you tried moving the cam to the back set of holes?
Is it ok for motors to spin up full throttle without a prop
It's not the best.
how do you mount your camera? I like the angle you have there
You mean the FPV cam or the Yi?
+Joshua Bardwell FPV cam
It's mounted in the middle holes on the QAV-R side plates, then zip-tied so it presses against the top plate. Gives an angle of about 40 degrees.
+Joshua Bardwell Thank you. That's beautifully simple. Great idea :)
So how do I balance the motors after all??
+Friteusen Fritz ugh. I couldn't tell you. Even if you balance them perfectly, as soon as you crash they're out again.
Whats the accatable values of vibe that u recommend 😅
+Mohamad Ezwan Jais Jais less than 0.10 with props off.
Hi Joshua and others!
Who want to see accelerometer again in their motors tab just download BF configurator 1.8.4, add it to chrome as unpacked extension and launch it.
Tested on Naze32 + BF 3.1.7
BF configurator can be found here - github.com/betaflight/betaflight-configurator/archive/v1.8.4.zip
Well I guess that would do it. Good suggestion. But really BF devs! Fix it! FFS.
So how do you tune around a brand new motor that has some vibrations?
Any material I can watch or read through to understand?
I could not hear this "vibration" or thrill in the sound the motors make with the previous (and less powerful) motors...: ruclips.net/video/0zoNQmMxeS8/видео.html
Well, to be honest if a brand new motor had excess vibration I would replace it. But maybe if it's not too bad you could try balancing it with some tape. That's how we used to do it.
To tune around vibration you increase filtering and lower D gain. But if the vibration is very bad, there isn't anything you can do to fix it.
Joshua Bardwell thx. I’ll look into it.
Nice
Hi Joshua,
So I have been trying to perform these tests but i can never get my accelerometer to calm down. This video
ruclips.net/video/aLW7qNgfO-k/видео.html
I have posted to youtube shows you the readings I get. This is just a flight controller sat on my table, there is no quad. I find all of my quads do similar things when I connect then to my computer and try these tests you talk about. Any idea whats going on? interestingly enough I get the same readings regardless of weather a disable or enable the accelerometer on the FC. The big jumps you see on the video are me tapping the FC with my finger.
Any ideas ?
Unfortunately, Betaflight changed the Motors tab from Accelerometer to Gyro, and the resultin information is useless. I wish they would change it back.
you lost me at how much vibration I think
не понимаю на хрена