How to REDUCE Prop Wash & Wind Shaking
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- Опубликовано: 25 июл 2024
- In this video, we review the ONE slider you need to adjust to take care of 80% of prop wash from a PID tuning perspective. There are other adjustments you can make which we cover in my Patreon video at: / 56308336
0:00 - Intro
1:00 - What is Prop Wash
3:10 - OSD Slider Tuning with Betaflight 4.3
5:05 - Tuning with BF 4.2 and other Firmware
6:42 - Better prop wash performance
8:53 - Summary Wrap-up
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Uavtech patreon is definitely one of the most active patreons. The formulas flying out of your face had me crackin up.
Sliders in the OSD! My prayers have been answered!
I was a bit to shy with my tuning but seeing the values you have put for the master slider, I tried a bit more than usual and my propwash is gone on my 4" quad !! That's great ! Thank you so much !
This is Brilliant..... been waiting for something as simple as this for ages now!
Thank you. That was one of your best videos for non-technical people like me.
Prop wash and throbbles, throttle wobble, are the two I hear people complaining about the most. Love your videos ❤️🤙
Thanks for this video! I tune the old fashioned way in the field but will definitely use this knowledge 👌
Fantastic, Mark! Thanks a lot! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
This is like the #1 thing I learned from you and Chris: Prop wash performance means high PID gains so just bump that master slider up :3
And that Slider OSD is gorgeous! No more land, goggles off, radio off, plug in, wait for betaflight config to start, adjust, save... and all the rest in reverse (that sucks so much on a field!) - just land, OSD adjust, start... Love it!
Guess my AOS5.5 will be analog after all...
4.4.2 a year later and I have the same OSD on my O3... but my damn motor direction 😢
Clear and to the point. Thanks!
I’ve found this helped with my 7” quads. I move the master up, then the PD slider
Had severe propwash during rapid turns/drops. Watched this video. Now soaring without a care.
Such a brilliant human being 🙏🙏🙏❤️❤️❤️
Great advice. Didn’t know that Betaflight got that comfortable.
Top man Mark as always 👌👍
Thanks for sharing
Good video mark
Looking forward to step 2.
Great stuff. Where was this with Cleanflight? 🤣 We’ve come a long way. On to the Patreon video for more. Thank you!
Thanks so much for this video. You nailed my problem. ❤
Thank you! As always a giver!!!
Nice simple tip, great vid! Step 2: reduce filter latency (advanced users of course). I want those sliders in my DJI OSD 😭.
Canvas Mode!!! Come'on DJI!!
excellent, thank you
Hi geezer, I watch all your vids, i used to teach automotive mechatronics, basic pid motor, solonoid control with various feedback sensors, encoder,optical discs, simple stuff, drive by wire, two hall effect sensors on a lookup table and if the corelation (programed interpolation graphs) moved out of range the car would go into limphome etc.
We used NationInstruments labview!
THEN IT WAS ALL SO SIMPLE, TUNE THE PID UNTIL THE ERROR REACHED A STEADY STATE QUICKLY WITHOUT TO MUCH OVER/UNDER SHOOT!
IM MODEST, NOT BRAGGING! JUST EXPLAINING MY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE, 15 YEARS ON!
ON 1 DRONE, I HAVE ON 4.3 I TURNED OF BIDIRECTIONAL DSHOT AS MY CPU WAS HIGH, 60% DSHOT 300 AND IT SORTED OUT MY GYRO DRIFT,
NOW THE QUESTION?
WOULD YOU DESCRIBE PROPWASH AS LIKE THE BACKEND OF A CAR COMING OUT WHEN ON THE THROTTLE PULLING OUT?
SORRY FOR THE LIFE STORY, ITS JUST CHANGED SOOOO MUCH!
RESPECT
RC ADDICT
eh... I would not use that anaolgy. Its simply you are trying to blow thrust into turbulant air.
Sliders in osd! That’s exciting. I usually struggle a bit after bumping up master i’ll help propwash and yaw washout (micros) but then i start to get low and mid throttle vibes so i’ll have to back it off again. Id love to hear your take on tiny whoops, yaw washout and how to handle the really high d ratios well.
For washout you need high P on Yaw.
@@uavtech If i go high on yaw
can D be added to yaw? I never see d gains in yaw and haven’t thought much about it...
i’ll try bumping yaw P up only. My 65mm has been killing me with dives
I didn't realise the sliders can be adjusted through the osd on 4.3. I spent a large amount of time today tuning in the field and doing it the old school way with a calculator. Thanks for the info though so i don't have to do that again.
Thanks! I think the master multiplier in the OSD has been moved below "simplified tuning" from what I can recall in the 4.3 version I'm using. It's simplified_master_multiplier in the CLI in any case.
yeah, it's on Page 2. Still otherwise the same.
Tried 4.3 on my 2" whoop . At first vtx would work. Channel wasn't on set channel. Then motors were being smoking hot on 4.2 tune but default gyro filters with rpm filtering on (more filtering)
Then I went to betaflight default tune. Still burning hot motors.
Put 4.2 back and then everything works fine. So confused. What could I of missed or messed up?
Matekf411
Glad I found this video. Most of the factory tunes are good. But...the heavy NBD AcroBee65 Crossfire model stock tune has little shakes at slower speed and worse when coasting DOWN the stairs.
My solution: PID profile #2 looks like a generic BF tune. I took that tune using the RP functions to get kinda close to the NBD tune, leaving Yaw on default. Keeping the Master multiplier on default. Once it is close, I used the MM to tune! I "feel" like it is an improvement. More testing....
Now this is a slider I can wrap my head around
Nice video my friend! I have some Jello when I fly my whoop outdoors. ill try this and see if it goes away!
Jello is probably a prop vibration problem. If you have not used HQ props, give them a shot.
@@uavtech I was using the HQ props at my Mobula7, it was fine. Now at my new build I have the 3blade gemfan props. Ill have a try with HQ 4blade. Thank you! 👍
What are the stick ends youre using on your qx7 ???
Great content as always!
Did you ever find that after a certain point the propwash performance start getting worse even if motors still run smoothly (no shrilling sound, vibrations etc.)?
No. It always seems to get better in my experience until you get to the D-term trill point.
@@uavtech thank you for the video. Do you have an example of that trill point?
I have recently build an 6" quad based on recon 6" frame ans I cannot get rid of tones of osscilations vibrations and shakes as well as propwash no matter what PID and filters I put on it..
That voice pack sounds so much better than the weird British one that came with my mambo
Is this also applicable to micros and whoops? Awesome videos keep up the great work!!
Yes
Should the master multiplier be used in tandem with the presets found on the website (with the PD Gain already @ 1.5)? Or should it be done with all the other sliders at default?
Mater multiplier should be after you have already found your tune, and you want to start fine-tuning it. He was saying how MM brings all of the PIDs up. That means, we should first either pick a tune, and go from there, or start with default, next, tune to our liking, then > master multiplier, and what ever else is needed for fine-tuning.
@@Inertia888 Much appreciated! Will give it a try. Thanks!
@@mengleelim1054 np, good luck and have fun!
hey question would having a battery of higher output help with propwash handling? Ovonic just sent me a battery rated at 120c constant and on the first pack out I noticed that it was handling very well full speed to stops with almost no oscillations. Then I went back to my normal CNHL pack which has a 100c constant rating and flew the same line full stick punch to full stop an was getting a noticeable oscillation. Both were flown on the same props and no crashes in between packs.
Sorry it's not a UAV Tech answer but let me try. If one of the batteries is heavier or much different shape and weight distribution that may be the cause. Or possibly your lesser battery is not providing enough power. Compare the blackbox from both and see if you are hitting 100% motor(s) during the propwash events.
Is this still true, even if we started with one of your presets? Thanks for all the smart work you do!
Good question 🤔
Yes. Those are still a little conservative
Subscribed 👍
Newbie I Can I apply these setting for my quad? currently, Im using default settings
Configurator: 10.7.1
Betaflight: 4.2.0
FC: iflight f7 Twing
Motor: Velox 2207 v2 2550kv
the equation overlay while you explain how to do it on kiss fc made me laugh!!
He just loves KISS, doesn't he. ;3
Shouldn't the filter sliders be accounted for as well in terms of helping mitigate propwash by reducing phase delay?
They are, but 80% of it is getting higher gains.
Not sure but didnt you mentioned in another video that the balance has to be right to minimize propwash? If i just move the master slider up/down, the balance will still be the same…am I gettin something wrong?
If the quad feels like it's having propwash under slightly windy conditions just cruising. Assuming there are no mechanical issues, would this coincide with too high P-D values?
Move up or down P-D gain slider to see which is better.
Great video! :D One question tho. Why does reducing the filter (d-term filtering i guess), set the thrilling oscillation point higher? Arent you making the signal less clean and so multiplying the oscillation? Higher PIDS require more filtering? Or did i get something wrong here. Thanks for the helpful informations ;D
You are making the signal less clean, but also more delayed. It seems like the delay and higher D-gain finds an oscillation point. Decreasing the filter delay moving up that oscillation point.
@@uavtech Thanks :D, appreciate your answer!
@@uavtech So you move the slider to the right, and it solves the oscillations? How? Wouldn't it make the situation worse, because the d term gets noisier?
@@Toth_Marton moving the Master to the right move all the gains up, which will increase prop wash performance. D-term doesn't get noisier per say, but any noise in the gyro signal will be amplified. Typically, that's not an issue with modern filtering unless you have set the filters to high. At some point, if you keep moving the Master Slider to the right, you will get D-term oscillation (a flutter sound) from the motors. At that point you know you have gone too far. I cover that here: theuavtech.com/2022/08/finding-your-flutter-point-for-optimal-performance/
What is the function of pid in a fully manual drone? I would except pid in stabilization mode, not manual/3d.
Throw a dark rag/towel over the fpv cam when showing the OSD elements ! Works like a charm !
Start-up power can do wonders to many off-size (ie. not 5") quads :)
Interesting! So how do you tune for this? What things would you see if it's too high or too low?
@@chrisburke63 It’s a bit of a trial and error. For example, modern 22xx/23xx motors are so powerful you might get desyncs even with the default blheli start-up/ramp-up power. Kabab FPV/Bob did a video about it after someone pointed out one of his review 4” had problems that looked like start-up power related: ruclips.net/video/obObn1oGWmU/видео.html
what about filter sliders. do i leave that at 1 or can i have it at like 1.2 or 1.3 both sliders when i change the master slider?
load my preset setting, then move Master from there. theuavtech.com/presets
@@uavtech its the same for 4s and 6s right for a 5"freestyle. Cuz i have loaded it earlier today and had some vibrations but later figured it was a bent and cracked arm😅
My 5" LR with 6S Li-ion. I raise D with or without P I get oscillations that want to run away. Stuck at 25/28 .. hoping arm braces help
Then you are at the limit. To raise more, you need to reduce filters. But if too noisy, that's not an option.
@@uavtech yeah ordered custom arm braces thinking same thing. Li-ion are heavy and the arms are thin. It's fine on lipos.
I have pids p 65 i 60 d 20 How betaflight can calculate it with just master slider moving ? )) ps motor 1505 betafpv + 3 inch deadcat frame
move Master way down and then adjust the others to get to your numbers.
Any reason why the OSD has PI gain and D gain rather than the PD Balance and PD gain - cant wrap my head around why they would be different to the configurator
The Configurator is not yet updated. Nor has BF Master to the new sliders.
If the betaflight 4.3 gives a warning that it can cause hot motors or flyaway drones, ignore it as long as motors are ok ? trying to tune out prop wash in a 2.5' quad
Correct.
Is there a downside pf increasing it? Like reducing battery life or something?
I'm confused, so does this make all your old tuning vids obsolete? Is the new master slider in BF4.3 the "make it better" slider?
No. Same principals from day one. Just coming at it on this video in relation to which sliders effect which flight characteristics. Once presets are in BF. Folks will load and get great results, then can use a slider to make the preset (a more honed in default) better'er for their specific rig.
pop me pids in BF fro a moment. move slider get new numbers for other FWs ?
Yeah, that works.
Can a very aggressive tune cause desyncs? I moved my master to 1.5 but I had a desync on a hard trick. Was it just out of bad luck or did the slider cause this to happen? (Already watched your video on desyncs)
It does not cause them, but it will draw out the issue.
@@uavtech Apparently I use bluejay for my 5 inch and don't want to go less than x7 rampup power... can you give me any other advice? Thanks in advance
I cannot find the master multiplier in the OSD PID settings under simplified PID. Am I missing something? I am on BF 4.3.1
it is on page two.
I understand what you are doing but are there other steps first?What if I have bidirectional turned on?
Regardless, this is the main thing to raise to increase performance. In the other video we talk about other stuff for the last 20%
I subscribed..
I’m still on 4.1. This still applies right?
Yup
Any chance of 4.3 presets? Your 4.2 presets are so good it’s hard for me to justify going 4.3 without another preset that u make .
There will be presets built into 4.3 from what I understand.
@@kevbomtb6078 yeah that’s cool, I just want some uav presets. His 4.2 toothpick preset is just soooo good on my tp3s
I will make some 4.3 presets
@@djs134 Hey, in which video did he show the presets for a toothpick? I cant find it, thx a lot.
The toothpic preset is in 4.3
When you say “check motor heat”, how much is too much? Is any warmth at all too much? Barely warm ok? Anything as long as it’s not blazing hot?
if too hot to old, they are too hot!
First !!! Prop wash doesnt bother me. I can mitigate it when I want by moving into clean air. Looking at your "bad" tune, looks 100X better then my quad's prop wash. :(
Can you completely remove the prop wash?
No
LMAO @ 3:04 - "I don't want to put this down in the street......but I will..." is that really considered a "street" where you live?? You must be messing with us.....
Awesome video Mr UAV Tech!
I should not have called a street. Just a dirt access. But.folks drive and I was in the OSD. Whelp, then I grabbed anyways soooo... 🤦♂️
sweeeeeet
And for the last 5% ??? ^^
I know cinewhoops suffer from prop wash because of their design, but do you think this would help a little?
yes.
Followed suggestion and installed the newest version of the betaflight (which required uninstalling the old one which was perfectly running). The new Betaflight it is not running - "firmware version is not supported". So in spite flying I have to spend time on fixing this. Disappointed, guess the direction of the thumb I granted.
i don't think i said anything about upgrading?
if you followed the good advice of saving a backup of your current config before upgrading, you can just flash back to your previous version and restore that config.
the most recent version of BF works fine. the issue is some lack of knowing on your side for knowing all the information to setup BF, so please don't be blaming.
i hope you have luck in going back to your previous version or getting the new setup right. If the old was working perfect, why are you messing with it?
@@uavtech "If the old was working perfect, why are you messing with it" because from the video reducing prop wash seem to be really easy, so I decided to follow it. I did not get the same betaflight GUI as you (did not see any Muster multiplier) from my existing version and based on your description, installed the 4.2. Thank you for your time, no criticism, but this video did not help me. I hope you agree that we are free to express our opinion.
@@davidtskhakaya280 I guess. Why did you not follow a video for how to upgrade firmware? The first thing it would have said is you need to download the latest version of the configurator and make a backup? It is a simple video on one concept of how to increase Prop Wash performance. In that subject matter, it is helpful. You got messed up upgrading firmware and are blaming for it. It is odd. It was not about that subject.
Hope you got it sorted.
@@uavtech "i don't think i said anything about upgrading?" when you present something saying that this features has given version (4.2), this at least to me means - if you want to have this features you have to install this version. In addition you didnt answer my question: do you agree that we are free to give our positive, or negative responses?
@@davidtskhakaya280 Yes. You can say whatever you want of course. I too have the right to challenge what you say.
You had trouble upgrading - which I'm sorry to hear - and then blamed me on a video that had nothing to do with upgrading. That is not logical and I'm pointing that out as a retort to your comment. sorry.
Isn't it mostly about throttle control at the end of the day? I think you can't really remove propwash completely on very aggressive turns and fast throttle punches
you can make heeps better by turning up gains. give it a shot. not completly remove, but the higher the gaines the wider the window of moves you can do without wash.
Sliders on potentiometers would be good.
I'm going to make that happen. Mast on a potentiometer through In-flight Adjustments. Should be easy!
@@uavtech Sweet. Also on potentiometers/switch should be motor output limit and rate profiles. Would be good if you could select every slider perhaps even the filtering slider too.
@@changeagent228 you can already put rate profile with motor limit on aux channel :)
@@IvanEfimovLimon Yeah but with the potentiometer you can vary it more
I felt like I seen more after?? ugh, am I missing something? Nobody else feels this way, it has to be me.... I just suck. lol.
Yeah, look again.
4s or 6s?
either
👍💖🤓
Without sliders, there's no need to divide, just multiply the p,I and d by the same number. (Like 1.1 or 1.3)
Yup. But who wants to do all that. 1.3.3 1.125 ... etc...
@@uavtech who knows 🤷
The master multiplier only adds 10% to the previous values when you move the slider to the right by 0.1. So if the previous value was 42, 10% of 42 is 4.2, round to 4, the new value is 42 + 4 = 46. And that goes for all values. The same should be true for KISS. No higher mathematics is needed.
Just as long as it is not viewed as a linear adder for the gains themselves. The ratios from P to D are held as D is moved up. Same for i-Term as P-term is moved up.
I.e: if P is 2x of D. As you move up Master, it goes up 2x more than D. Or if P is 1x D, they go up the same amount.
@@uavtech
ok, I want to understand this. I don't use sliders, but I came to this conclusion just by watching your video at 5:10. Maybe I'm missing something.
If P is 2x of D, P will go up 2x higher because 10% of two is 0.2 and 10% of one is 0.1. So P will go up 2x higher than D. The ratio between them will stay the same.
When you moved Master Multiplier to 1.1 all values jumped up by 10%. When you moved the slider to 1.2 all values jumped by 20% from the original values set at 1. When you incremented for another 0.1 all values jumped up by 30% from their original values. The ratios between them stayed the same. There is just a small difference due to rounding.
I don't see how this is not a simple multiplication and rounding.
I'm sorry, yes. As long as you are multiplying you are good. Folks come at this with adding and I responded too fast to your initial comment. You can't just add 10 to all the gains and keep doing that to move them up. You need to multiply by a certain factor (1.5 ... 2.0, etc...). That holds that ratios between the terms.
I wish i paid more attention at school
Imagine that wobble. But 100 times worse, and the whole time your flying lol.
before and after propwash look the same to me
Look again. Logs don't lie.
@@uavtech how do you think they make log cabins?
tree's fall, logs lie. get over it
:D
🤔🤷♂️
I don't know if prop wash is the most important flight Characteristic. Maybe the ability to even take off or track to your stick movement? I don't know, prop wash comes later in the game
whatever man it not that hard and you dont have to be a math wiz LTFOL
ummmmk. Yep, very easy WITH SLIDERS!! FTW!
ROFLMAO. 🤣
hate the hobby... maybe i'll wait 5 more years for it to sort itself out, before i get back into it
no standards, poor quad designs, poor software, bad goggle views, it's just not ready for prime time yet
haven't even standardized on connectors yet, everybody's still soldering bare wires to pads, it's a joke and a maintenance headache.
i think the hoola hoop crazy is dead and over with already, nobody watches FPV videos any more... they just don't draw any views like they first did.
I know right, if xjet says FPV is dead, ad LitleStellaFox says the hobby is over... it's probably... toast.
I never got any of my quads flying, I lost or destroyed all my parts trying to learn to solder.
My kids ran off with about half of my parts.
I think I got 3 arms, 2 motors, and a top plate and vtx left on the kittchen table.
Switches on transmitter broken to bits by the kids.
3 words: Bind - and - Fly. Lifesaver.
Also DJI.
half the things you state you hate about the hobby i love, different strokes
I started just before Dji came out with their digital system and I felt the exact same way (except the fpv craze being “over”- as it was just starting) Bought the Dji system as soon as it came out and it helped a ton- especially with the plug and play flight controllers. Only soldering was/is for motor wires and beepers-and there is now bind and fly if you don’t even want to do that. It has come a long way! If I were you, I’d get a bnf Dji system. It’s a super rewarding hobby/job if you get past all the disorganization and tech learning curves. And whether or not the “craze” is over, it doesn’t really matter to me, IMHO the phantom/Mavic craze is definitely over, but it still has a place in the film makers Arsenal, and you can still get amazing shots with fpv that you could never get with a Mavic….
I too am reloving my analog. Thank you Mark
4.4. 7"..... 💗🩷 Flys awesome!
And I've never tuned any of my builds. BF, patooey.
PRESETS tab FTW!!!!!
Next is my analog 10" bandolero with 3115z ( the COUGARLERO)