Peak American: the Winchester 1897 Trench Gun in WW1
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2023
- weaponsandwar.tv
The United States was the only country to use shotguns in World War One in a substantial way. It was not the first time the US had used such guns either; shotguns were used in the Philippines against the Moros and on the Mexican Punitive Expedition. For use in the Great War, however, it was deemed necessary to fit bayonets to them. At the request of the War Department, the Winchester company designed a bayonet mounting adapter for their Model 1897 pump-action shotgun, to use the M1917 bayonet that Winchester was also making at the time for the war effort.
Guns were first deployed to France in June 1918 for field testing, used with 9-pellet 00 buckshot in paper hulled cartridges. The reactions from troops in the field varied widely. Those who tended to be in relatively dry conditions with close-range combat tended to like them. Those in particularly wet areas had problems with the paper shells swelling, and those engaged in more open combat at range had little use for them. They were primarily used for military police roles like guarding POWs, but some did see combat.
The US military actually used Winchester 1897s in three different configurations. Guns like this one with bayonet mounts and heat shields, "riot" types with short (20") plain barrels, and long-barreled models used for training aircraft and anti-aircraft gunners. Numbers are conflicting and sources are complex, but the best assessment appears to be that approximately 12,000 trench models and about 18,000 riot models were sent to the Army (note that in the video I said 18,000 riot and training - that should have been just riot).
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Boo, have to buy a coffee mug for entry.
How you gonna deal with the FG-42 winner in NY? Does FG-42 legal in the NY?
Ian, do they ship it into Finland?!?
@KaiziGarden The winner was an LEO, who is not subject to their rules. I think it's wrong for LEOs to not be subject to the same rules as everyone else, but that's tangential to the question.
This is like the polar opposite of a Forgotten Weapon. This is an unforgettable weapon.
True. Ain't complaining, though!
It werfs flammen!!
Notorious Weapons
Notorious Weapons
Iconic Weapons
Shotgun = cruel and inhumane. Flamethrower = perfectly fine.
And don't forget mustard and chlorine gasses!
Yep. "It's really effective but we didn't think of it first so it's cheating".
To be perfectly fair, being hypocritical doesn't make you factually wrong, it just makes you an ass. Just because the guys using flamethrowers and poison gas (which EVERYONE was using) were complaining about shotguns, that doesn't mean shotty's aren't worthy of warcrime status. Hollowpoints (which are a warcrime) are less nasty than buckshot, so in this case, the hypocrites have a point.
Then again, I'm an unironic fan of William T. Sherman and Winston Churchill; I'm not in any better position to complain about shotguns.
@@nextcaesargaming5469 do it again uncle Billy!
The old video of Ian dressed in uniform with the trenchgun, swearing about the hypocrisy of the Germans calling shotguns a war crime, meanwhile using mustard gas all across Europe, is a classic that I regularly revisit.
Germany in WWI: "Buckshot is evil and inhumane!"
Also Germany in WWI: *sprays people with burning sticky gasoline*
Link?
ruclips.net/video/Z0D6p3w2qgY/видео.html@@madsclausen4028
I like Garand Thumb's version where he's in a Doughboy uniform putting an 1897 through its paces.
@@madsclausen4028 ruclips.net/video/Z0D6p3w2qgY/видео.html
Last time I was this early the Archduke was still getting in his car on June 28th 1914
LMAO CLASSIC
Accurate, I was there lol
Last time I was this early, there had only been 2 battles of the Isonzo
"Take me out."
Franz Ferdinand
I was there with ma boi Gavrilo eating Schiller's luscious sandwich.
In the early 70s, as a young private at Ft Ord, we were issued these shotguns for post guard guard duty. During familiarizing myself, I slam fired a full magazine. I was immediately pulled off the firing line by the range officer. He had no idea you could do that with one of these!!
My Uncle was at Ft. Ord during Vietnam. You’re only the second person I’ve heard of that was stationed there.
Sad to see what became of it 😢
@@ETC_Rohaly_USCG BRAC really impacted a lot of communities when the bases were shut. I have family around the former Plattsburgh, Rome, and Loring AFB's who remember the subsequent downturn.
Fun fact: Clint Eastwood was actually stationed at Ft Ord when he was in the Army from 1951 to 1953.
@@JuddKramer yeah I remember how it impacted El Toro naval air station, and Orange County and the fight that ensued for years about what to do with the land
@@adamcuneo7189 bonus fact: Jeff Bridges (aka: The Dude) was a Coastie. Look up the meme, “the Coast Guard will make you crazy by the time you’re done” lol
Too true! 😂
Fun fact: Winchester actually kept detailed logs of production dates and serial number ranges. It fell by the way side during both WWs, but was picked up again in the interwar and postwar eras.
I have one that was produced in 1947, but does have US Armory stamps, meaning it likely saw service during the Korean War. They produced model 1897s until sometime in the '60s.
Not sure thats a "fun fact" so much as it is common knowledge?
@@komradechampa348 I found that fact to be fun
I also think it is a fun fact and not so much common knowledge. Thank you for that information.
Someone told me that they saw limited service in Vietnam too?
also no mention of John Brownings genius design @@komradechampa348
A year ago I helped a woman go through her late husband's gun collection. To my absolute shock, I pulled out a WW2 1897, with heat shield. The story behind it was that was the gun he ran for his cowboy competition. He probably bought it cheap and used it in competition for decades. I wanted that gun so bad, but I couldn't meet the value at the time out of fairness to her.
You're a better man than me! I would have asked what she wanted for it right on the spot haha.
You did the right thing.
I love seeing the trench guns (whether real or repro) at Wild Bunch matches... I have always thought however that it should be MANDATORY to use them WITH bayonet! (Rather than prohibited by the rules lol)
I would have taken it in exchange for helping her.
Friend of mine, when he was kid in the 1980's took a BAR in exchange for helping a guy pick up and install a water heater. It was in the basement, he asked about it. Guy said it was left behind by an old roommate. He took it instead of cash. Didn't know what it was. Opened it up on fulll auto on his farm. Dad came running out and took it away. Dad sold it.
I helped a co worker when her husband died. All he had was a .22 hand gun and rifle.
Why can't I find a BAR or a WWI 1897 trench gun?
I had a similar experience but it was a dragunov and a couple retro ARS.
"Sir, the Americans are here"
"Slendid, what did they bring?"
"Shotguns and Thompsons"
"Oh, great. Gangsters and cowboys"
Damn right 🤠
That's it ..
That's all you need
The gap between the bayonet and the shroud over the barrel also suggest functionality in bayonet fighting. The US Army was using Canadian bayonet manuals for training. These manuals included very close range attack which was an upward jab under the chin. This gap and shroud would have made it possible to execute this technique.
Exactly it fits the hand like brass knuckles with your other hand on the neck of the stock, you can carve, spear, jab, bludgeon, punch, thrust, etc. Super effective. Surprised Ian didn't touch on that because I've read that is the reasoning for that particular shape.
Basically a buckshot slinging spear lol
The most aesthetically pleasing gun out there. Its just peak "old school cool"
The Winchester 1897, the shotgun that set the standard for ass kicking in shotguns.
Hold up there....the classic coach gun would like a word with you.
@@SlavicCeleryNay, laddie. Me gran's ol' blunderbuss does the job right fine, if ye need more'n a single blow, yer a deadman regardless
@@bigtasty42069 Wait a few, a handful of rocks guy is going to show up.
What about one of JMB’s earlier designs the 1887 in 10 gauge
I had a Model 1897 in Vietnam. I carried double 00 buck shot, but didn't have a bayonet for it. I left it hanging on the wall of my hooch in when I left in February 1973.
Thank you for your service.
Man, your old 1897 trench gun video, where you were in uniform and bashing the germans for their complaints about the trench gun, is one of those videos I still go back to. This is the better historical/informational video, but the other one is just American as hell and absolutely funny.
Amerikanisch = Kriegsverbrechen
Sehr treffend formuliert.
Well the Germans were a bunch of hypocrites because they used things like mustard gas, and were allied with the Ottomans who were responsible for the Armenian Genocide.
Why do you not write the fact, that between 1815 and long into 1980s, no shotguns had been used as service weapon. Only in 1830s/ 1840s few of southern german states bought a small number of percussion side by side shotguns. They had been sometimes handed to the up to 1890s/1900s only saberarmed policemen, mostly when fighting poachery, or escort a large number of prisoners to a prison.
The 19th/20th century german/austrian counterpart to US Wild West literature had been novels, in which either a Forrest Service official ( Förster) or a lawfull licenced huntsman fights poachers , smugglers or other criminals in the Woods. The heroic characters are armed with rifles, while shotguns, when appearing, had been the weapons of the criminals.
Perhaps you now understand, that german soldiers of wwl saw shotguns not as service weapons, but as weapons, used by criminals, so the shotgun armed US soldiers, other ones don' t used them, as criminals.
@@brittakriep2938 And using mustard gas and flamethrowers is somehow better?
@@brittakriep2938 Well maybe you can understand how that DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. The U.S. came into war to end the bullshit, not to kowtow to the same fucking people who had no problem starting a World War in the first place.
Interesting reference to Shrapnel shell. Contrary to common usage where fragments from any exploding shell is called shrapnel, the original Shrapnel shell, invented by Lieutenant Henry Shrapnel in 1784 and termed 'spherical case shot', carried musket balls in a case with an exploding charge. A Shrapnel shell for the British 60-pounder of WWI carried "about 990 bullets , 35 to the pound." Effectively, one hell of a big, long-range shotgun.
I'll just be honest and say hearing "slamfire" makes me perk up. The trench shotty is the most iconic shotgun and I love it.
It actually helps a ton if a person is pumped up on adrenaline and loses fine motor skills. Not having to time the release and pull of the trigger is a huge benefit.
I have a rare Model 12 Heavy duck that does it and I love it
@@hughgrection3052 Have one too. Does yours have the ribbed Simmons barrel or the ribbed factory barrel?
Mine sadly does not have a rib, bought it at a random pawn shop for $650 a few years ago, and funnily enough they actually had 3 of them on the shelves.
Looking back I should've also bought the Ithaca M37 that was on the shelves too, but I didn't wanna miss a car payment.
@RZeppelin Mine is actually the even more rare model with the solid rib on top. Its a shame someone cut it down. But it's also what caught my eye on it when it was on the shelf. The typical standard Model 12 has the long sort of ugly barrel look. This one tho had the cool riot gun look to it. I payed just 450 for it. They're the hands down best combat shotguns even till this very day. It even cycles mini shells with no need for an adapter. Beautiful gun tho with lots of heavy wear on it and character.
I too would like to own an Ithaca in the same riot setup or trench. I'm not sure how I feel yet about the downwards ejection tho. Seems like a slip and trip hazard indoors on hard floors to eject cases there. They're crazy cool too tho.
I wish a company would make modern tactical furniture for the Model 12s tho. I'd buy up them all of so and cut them down and turn them into little beasts.
Does yours have the red stock rubber pad?
@@RedZeppelinAirship Since yours has no rib tho ya may be able to mount a heatshield on yours tho?
@@hughgrection3052 My Model 12 3IN is a full 32 Inch long barrel, and I don't intend on cutting it down because it is completely original with a very good B+ blued finish.
If I ever found one already at 18IN mark I would purchase it in a heartbeat (so long as it isn't more then $600) or if I got one that was in very poor condition and I could look past the surface condition to cut it down to 18 or 20 inches.
Mine has the original red rubber butt pad too, and it still is in a moderately rubbery feel and isn't hard as a rock.
Too bad Norinco is banned in the USA, I would love to get one of their 1897 clones, they are around $350 in Canada and can slamfire. Thats only time I would ever wish to be Canadian is for their Norinco imports, like the type 81 or their cheap shotguns.
“Bird shot wouldn’t have been effective”
Ian just shattered the hearts of Fudds everywhere
Fudds are the ones that have always been using these shotguns. Nowadays all the tacticool kids think the AR is the answer to whatever question is being asked.
@@brivas3343, That's because the AR is the answer in most cases. Lightweight, very accurate, low recoil and high ammo capacity plus lower penetration inside a home, makes it a good choice for home defense. Not to mention the plethora of accessories like weapon mounted lights, suppressors, etc. make it a good choice. Nothing wrong, inherently, with a shotgun for close range work, but an AR is usually a better choice. BTW, lest you think I'm a "tacticool kid" I'm 63 years old.
@@mikebaggott7802 How to say you're tacticool without saying you're tacticool.
@@brivas3343 Try proving him wrong. You'll have a rough time.
Army vet here. My dad have his rock island armory AR shotgun with a 50 round drum loaded with nothing but birdshot which he swears up and down it will rip an attacker to shreds much worse than 00 buck....shit makes me cringe. My 590a1 is plum full of 00 buck. He thinks I'm wrong....smh
I found one of these disassembled mostly complete in a cabinet that was in my grandpa’s garage. I reassembled it as much as I could but I’ll have to buy some parts to complete it. It will be a wall hanger. The production date is 1913. Pretty cool, I think.
That bayonet mount was also special because it could be used as a secondary grip just for cqb. Imagine holding it like a pugil stick or staff weapon, one hand on the back and one up front, allowing you to swing and strike with the buttplate, slash and stab with the bayonet and use the body of the rifle to parry and block. I can see it being most effective in close quarters situations.
Dont forget using the bayonet mount as brass knuckles.
When I was a rookie cop we had shotguns capable of slam fire. We were taught that, when you shove the slide forward shove it at the target and you would hit the target! I was surprised how effective it was. We all were sad to see our slam fire shotgun get traded in on newer shotguns without slam fire capability. But the insurance companies and city attorneys insisted on it even though we never had a bad shooting from a slam fire!
Ah Ithaca shotguns. So much fun. So easy to do something stupid. 😁
Just because you never had a problem doesn't mean you never would've.
@@LexYeen Decades ago I paid next to nothing for an Ithaca 37. Could never get *MY* timing right. Got too used to keeping my finger on the trigger. Figured that eventually I'd do something stupid.
Better that they insist on it *before* a bystander dies than after.
Yeah, the competence of many officers in the current generation has dropped so low that even with good training they still chronically do stupid things, getting themselves in trouble and others hurt. Having the slam fire is great for well trained and self-regulated people, we are just running dangerously low on said individuals.
Working for a large outdoor retailer as a Gun Vault Specialist, I got to accompany our Used Gun Lead on an offsite appraisal and purchase. Most of the guns were older hunting guns, but a few caught my eye. There was a chromed M1886 Mannlicher with Chilean export marks. I thought it was an M1888 at first, but educated myself while he was meticulously examining the other guns. There was also a Khyber Pass Martini-Enfield copy that we had to pass on due to safety issues. I honed in on three of the guns: an 1897, 1892, and an M1 Carbine with a cheesy looking stock.
The 1897 is an original Riot version (but not the military Trench Gun, lacking the heat shield and bayonet lug). The serial number puts it at an 1899 production.
The 1892 is chambered in .38 WCF and its serial number puts it as 1894 production.
The M1 is an Inland manufactured one, made in late 1941 or early 1942, and the stock turned out to be an original 1960s Owens wire stock, as seen in one of the photos of the Symbionese Liberation Army.
Man, the one you reviewed is in FANTASTIC condition for being almost a century old! It's always wonderful to see such TLC into preserving a piece of history. I can just picture a young American GI death-gripping that gun from within his trench, waiting for the signal to go over the top. Amazing.
A friend’s neighbor picked one up at a show, got to hold that beast. $5k back in 2012 or so.
This was a terrific presentation. I feel like there should be an Ithaca Model 37 as used in Vietnam video, as well. Just, uh.. just puttin' that out there.
US Army: “Shotguns are compact enough to be easily wielded in the tenches.”
Also US Army: *Adds 15 inch-long bayonet*
Make it long enough and you don't even have to get out of the trench to stab people on the other side
@@moosemaimerAh, the M91/30 approach.
When I was an MP at Fort Bragg in the late 1990s, we still had these, including bayonets(!) - in the Arms Room for "Riot Control." But... we never took them out for qualification. But they sure were cool to look at!
I mean, this was shortly after the government actually had to deploy the Marines to put down rioting in L.A.
Also, most angry mobs are not even going to try and charge a bayonet line.
Riot control used to mean firing light birdshot loads at people’s legs to encourage them to disperse.
picture a guy on guard duty at the entry gate hoiding that while an MP talks to the driver.........instant compliance....
Still had 1897s in the arms rooms of the 327th Infantry when I served in the 1980s.
same in the berlin brigde
Was in c 1/327
4/502 swift strike
The whole 'slam fire' thing can actually serve as an interesting way to prevent malfunctions. Compared to semiauto guns, pump guns have a strict rhythm of pushing the pump forward, then pulling it backward, then pulling the trigger. Slamfiring not only removes a step from that process, but allows you to avoid the order-of-operations issue that can lead to ejecting live rounds or even short stroking. You could argue that it's just a substitute for proper training, but combined with the faster fire rate, I think the package does give you some interesting capabilities.
Yeah, it's a side effect of a solution to the much bigger problem of ensuring the gun can only fire in battery. The AK-47's battery sear is basically the same, but with barrel gas doing the pumping.
Yeah training could negate the problem, but it’s still more user friendly.
Either way these things are so cool. We all need one
My father owns a full size civilian model 1897 and it’s hands down my favorite shotgun I’ve ever fired
My grandfather said they had a few of these when he worked at the Sheriff's Dept. in the 60's and 70's. He said the only time they ever got them out was when they had to do a roadblock for an escaped convict search. No idea what happened to the guns. Probably taken home by other deputies or sold at auction.
I have a bayonet that is said to go with a Mossberg shotgun. It resembles the Israeli Mauser 9" bayonet
In the "old West", shotbuns were used about as much as pistols in gunfights. Especially by "Doc" Holiday
>shotbun
Didn't Iced Clantbun usually pair well with Johnnynut Ring-Ohs for part of a complete Curly Bill Breakfast?
This group should get the award for the most creative use of a typo: It's WAYYY out of control!!! :) OK corral them all
*Doc Holiday Twerking foes to death*
My battalion in West Berlin mid-1980s had four Winchester 12-gauge military shotguns intended for ammunition guards.They tended to never leave the Headquarters Company arms room. Having fallen in love with them after shooting one at Rose Range next the Wannsea, I asked to be issued one for alerts and exercises. They still used the M1917 bayonet. Loved the weapon, and its uniqueness sent a message. Had a faux terrorist meant to test my command post's security set off his bomb when he saw me charge with the weapon, killing himself, me and the door guard, but the CP continued to manage the battle.
The 728th MP BN companies (552, 557, 57, 188) in Korea in the mid 1990's still had dozens of these in the arms room which were carried by the Korean Contract security guards. I wish that I knew more about the history of the weapons as I was inventorying them back then as it would have been neat to see if any were WWI vintage. I wonder if they were ever sent back to Anniston Army depot, and if they would ever be available through the CMP
You write very well for a dead man.
A "faux" terrorist that sets off a suicide attack? What's faux about that o.O
@HessianLikeTheFabric , it was part of the exercise play. It was a Soldier pretending to be a terrorist pretending to be a Soldier wearing the wrong headgear holding a briefcase bomb.
@@edwardloomis887 Ah, my bad, I missed the exercise part, that ofc makes a lot more sense. Sorry for the misunderstanding
Trench sweeper go *boom
This is a must have gun for me. Currently saving up for one
When I was a kid my uncle came home one day carrying an original 1897 trench gun that he later sold to a museum.
The 1897 Trench Gun is my go to meme whenever something can be solved with a lot of judiciously applied firepower. Things like Huge Spiders, Coconut Crabs, eerie videos showing something weird and scary.
You may call me a Fudd, but between the M1 Garand, the 1911 and the 1897, you may not pack the latest and tactical supremacy, but you can bring a lot of impressive kaboom to an argument.
I have a history degree with emphasis in WWI and have always obsessed over owning a Winchester 1897! However, considering their rarity and price, I opted for a Mossberg 590 Retrograde.
I love it for its classic "trench gun" look. Wood stock, heatshield, bayonet lug, etc.. Just can't slam-fire, which I'm okay with. I threw an M7 bayonet, reproduction WWI leather sling, and a reproduction WWI ammo pouch, to compensate lol
Would still love to win this Winchester 1897 though!
Just a magnificent beast of a firearm.
I love my 1897 trench gun :) It's pretty loose, and it has almost no finish left, but it's my favorite gun :) I'll have to re-check the serial number on mine, to see which month it was made in 1918. A few years after I bought it, I also stumbled across an original 1918-dated leather cavalry scabbard for the 1897 trench guns, which I IMMEDIATELY bought. I have never seen/heard of another one of those. It fits my gun like a glove.
I've always wanted one just for the external hammer design. I don't care about the slamfire. The heat shield and bayonet lug would always be a welcome bonus.
The 1897 has to be the prettiest shotgun. It is definitely one of the best looking guns in general.
I remember seeing an MP pulling guard duty with this shotgun at an on-post Bank at Fort Bragg in 1980. It was still a hell of a weapon then, and still is today.
I have a Norinco clone of the 1897 Trench, it's got some nice benefits, namely it's set up for modern shells out of the box, but you still get the raw joy of an 1897 without paying out a stupid amount for an actual historical piece, or finding an 1897 fowling gun and having it converted. Honestly words cannot describe how damn fun my Trench gun is. I love that damn thing.
I have one too......and you are right, it is lots of fun.......it's excactly like this one, but new.....have shot it quite a bit.....and like the original it is very reliable.....only downside for me is country of manufacturing.....
I've seen footage from the Vietnam War with the 97 in use . Love the Winnie !
Many years ago I read the letters home of a young lieutenant in the Philippines. His father bought him an 1897 and told him to take it with him everywhere, including dinner and the head. .
I just bought a long barrel version of this shotgun. Mine was made in 1923. Not military and no bayonet but in beautiful condition.
I actually found and bought one a few weeks ago. It's missing the heat shield and bayonet but everything else is original. Beautiful gun. The store also had a model 12 as well but I was more interested in the 1897.
Shotguns might hold 5 rounds, and be slow to fire, but they scare the hell out of everyone on the other end of it.
They fire far faster than a bolt action even without using slam fire . Loading takes more time, of course.
One of the finest shotguns ever made.
Living (as always) vicariously through your experiences, Ian! I'd love one of these and always had a bit of a fascination for them. Cheers again for all you do.
a gun so legendary that a meme 100 years later was created where the Germans view it as a weapon of mass destruction, worse than mustard gas.
Yeah. Don't get me wrong, they're crazy badass weapons.
IMO tho one has to consider the context of the era they was used tho. These are in no way better than a more reliable, stronger and more accurate rifle.
But... this was when a single messenger pigeon being let loose by the enemy could spell disaster for your forces if it was able to escape. So they would hand out tons of shotguns to use more for the birds, but also kill at close range effectively when needed.
The fact they had so many around made up for the fact they used buckshot instead of birdshot.
If not for the bird aspect, they would have skipped these totally. Which is exactly what happened eventually for what should be obvious reasons.
People tend to think they was used because of how effective they was vs Germans. That just isn't the case.
Rifles did that better and was reloaded quicker too.
But, I own a rare Model 12 Heavy duck and love it to death. It was sawed off to 18 inches and has the rare ability to fire 3 inch shells instead of just 2 3/4 shells.
You'd think at least Ian would know they wasn't there for reasons most people assume and mention that.
But, regardless they're awesome as hell guns. I love the flaming bomb too. The slamfire is alot more useful than he said also. It prevent a soldier who's amped on adrenaline from messing up the fire sequencing of not releasing then pulling the trigger in the right orders. So it made them much more effective.
Great guns. A trench is on my bucket list for sure
@@hughgrection3052 and here I was just telling a joke
It's widely misunderstood today - the Germans didn't seriously think the protest was going to achieve anything but it was the latest stage in an ongoing tit-for-tat between the Entente and Central powers about who was the most barbaric. First the Brits complained about German "butcher blades" then the Germans complained about British "dum-dum bullets" then the Brits complained about gas so the Germans complained about mining and so on. No one expected it to make any difference on the battlefield - it was all propaganda meant to rile up the domestic audience.
@frenchfrey65 And here I was saying why they are legendary to the point of a meme.
What a coinkdink.
All the laughter and sheer humor must have affected my reasoning.
By all means, proceed with the thing that is maximum humor and the merry making that you do so well, that I so rudely interrupted.
My apolgies....😉
@@hughgrection3052The trench gun serves the same purpose as a submachine gun. Each pellet is ballistically equivalent to a 9mm pistol bullet.
The US army never ordered or issued bird shot loads for them - only buckshot (in cardboard and later full brass cartridges (the brass cartridges arrived too late for WW1 but were used widely in WW2)).
My ex father-in-law had his father's model 1897, commercial version of course. I still used it for duck hunting, back in the late 80s
My brother has a ww2 model. I have 6 model 97 Winchester in both 12 and 16 gauges. Not all are in working condition. But several are. Great all around weapons.
6? Wow
There were probably a few reasons why other forces didn't field shotguns in WWI. One was concern that they didn't meet the laws of war. There was an Australian officer on Gallipoli in 1915, a Boer War veteran named Stephen Midgely DSO, who used a sawn-off double on trench raids:
" The “Old Bird” is a holy terror in these raids. He’s only an exceptionally small chap and no youth either, but he is about the most murderous old devil in the regiment. He leads these raids with a hell of a yell as he jumps down into the trench, blazing to the right and left with a sawn-off shotgun. An ordinary service revolver is no good for him.”
At least one of his fellow officers also used the shotgun for the same purpose, before Midgely was ordered to put it away by the brass, on the basis apparently that it wasn't quite the thing. I think the Turks may also have had something to say about it.
Given that trenches were also cleared with trench mortars and jam-tin bombs (improvised grenades) in the same campaign it hardly seems to make sense.
"Wasn't quite the thing" sounds more than a little bit of an "officers are all of the opinion that war ought to be a gentlemanly sport" thing than anything else. Anybody who had to actually jump into a trench would not have hesitated to take one of these over a service revolver every single time, 10 out of 10, no exceptions.
Ive always wanted on of these since I first saw it in WaW 15 years ago. Its like a Faberge egg, just looks so aesthetic.
Honestly they look a little bit better when they have some wear on them. Just my opinion but I like when it looks like it just won two world wars
My brothers and I will be handed down an M1897 from my great grandfather, grandfather and eventually, my father. It was made in I believe 1916, if I remember correctly. It is a hunting '97, not the trench version, though. Still a really fun shotgun.
I came across a variant of the 1897 trench guns in a civilian DOD security guard arms room circa 2001. They even had the bayonets. Beautiful gun and it had been well maintained. If smart phones had existed I'd have taken a photo.
I have a Norinco short 1897 copy and I’ve always wanted to fit it with a heat shield, but every one for sale says they don’t fit the Norinco guns.
Super fun shotgun, my go to out of the several I own. Despite being short the recoil isn’t bad due to the weight, but it isn’t even that heavy.
p sure they'd fit anyway, it's just clamp-on
just be sure the gun is long enough to accommodate the heat shield ig
I had the same issues with repro heat shields. If you find an original one they fit perfect.
Easy enough to grind (mini flap wheel) or shim with brass shim stock.
I recall Norinco used to sell its 1897 in the military trench gun configuration a few years ago, but I haven't seen any lately. The quality has apparently dropped a bit with the more recent clones.
C&Rsenal also did a in-depth look to this iconic shotgun with Mae shooting it and their thoughts about it. Check that episode out if you want to get into the history of it.
I cannot be alone in the belief that more guns should also have swords on them.
This is the pride and joy of my uncles shotgun collection. He got his from my grandpa's dad.
Back in the early 80s, I had a classmate whose dad was a retired US Army Major who had a long barreled M1897 - a very cool piece. Though I do prefer the Riot/Trench version!
The first "it's never a war crime the first time" weapon.
its still not a war crime..
Ah, a man of culture as well.
Demonstrably not.
"Slam-fire" might not be prudent or more effective in a combat situation, but on the back 40, it certainly is FUN!
There’s still some Norinco clones around in Canada, they were reasonably priced too at around $350. Quality was decent and they could be slam fired like the original.
I was the unit armorer for the 410th MO Company at Ft. Hood, TX in 1976. I was signed for 170 of newer winchester shotguns. Amoung other cool things.
Another interesting and informative video. Cheers mate.
Very informative Ian, thanks for sharing this information
Now THIS is a home defense gun.
Bad Guy: *stumbles around living room in the dark*
Me: "FIX BAYONETS!" *clack-clack*
We had one come through the store I worked at. It had the US flaming bomb on the receiver. But one of the previous owners had ground off the bayonet lug and removed the head shield
AWESOME detailed history on the weapons use and introduction into the military. Very well done!
We were still using Winchester pump shotguns in the Army in the 1980s.
Also from the Revolution to the US Civil War, Americans were loading their smoothbore muskets with buck-and-ball loads, so the idea of combat buckshot goes all the way back to the beginning for America.
Forgotten weapons presents: the most well remembered weapon
It's fascinating to learn about the Winchester 1897 Trench Gun's role in WW1 and how it evolved to suit various combat conditions. The versatility and adaptability of firearms during that era truly showcased American ingenuity in weaponry. Thanks for sharing this historical perspective on firearms in World War I
Pershing would have crapped his pants if he had seen the AA-12. ^-^
Man, a trench gun with a bayonet is about as an intemidateing weapon as you get
Other trench shotguns too can join in the fun.
Flame throwers with bayonets
@@donnieweston3249 Dont give the Japanese ideas!
@@donnieweston3249 Chesty Puller made a similar quip when he saw a flamethrower for the first time. "Where the Hell do you put the bayonet?"
Its funny that Germany would protest the shotgun considering that they were the ones that first brought poison gas and flamethrowers to the battle field.
Never trust a hypocrite
"Hey, it may be a gallon of burning petroleum jelly, but at least it's not a dum-dum bullet, right?"
Gotta clear pillboxes somehow
Bleibt trotzdem ein Kriegsverbrechen ihr Tiere.
I was an MP in the early 70s. We are all kinds of shotguns in the armory. We even carried them on patrol in the car. My favorite was the 1897 which we still had. I liked it because the external hammer you could carry safely with a round in the chamber and hammer on half cock.
One of the most brutally tacticool weapons ever contrived.
Ah yes, the gun that won WW1 according to Reddit.
saw it on the internet.. has to be true..
Reddit is the modern version of a gathering of medieval peasants exchanging stories that are totally true.
@@AdamantLightLP that’s not true.
medieval peasants are far more hygienic.
I believe the 3-screw clamp was still not enough to resist movement under recoil, so the screw holes in the adapter were drilled for a slight interference fit with the barrel. The barrel then had three slight cross-wise 'troughs' cut into them to match the screws for a mechanical, as well as a friction, lock.
This is the ideal home defense build. You may not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like.
This gun is iconic and a looker.
*germans complain about shotguns*
*the French guy who got toasted by a flame thrower and the British guy who got caught in a gas cloud* - “bruh” 💀
I thoroughly enjoyed watching this before I started work today and on my lunch break. I always appreciate the history and knowledge. Thanks for the explanation of terms and the reasoning behind the heat shroud. I never knew they came with bayonets and I appreciate the rundown.
Norinco makes a copy.
I just love the Win 1897! I have four and I would love to get some more. Great video sir.
I am interested in these shotguns, however this is merely coincidental 😂
You could make a video about the footwear of WW1 and I'd watch it. And running into you at SHOT was still one of the highlights of my year. Inspirational, entertaining, and very informative. Thank you for doing this for all this time. I wish you many more years of success !
Imagine if someone made a cleaver bayonet attachment and essentially turn the shotgun into a battle-axe.
Imagine someone getting dumber from having just read that.
Shotgun is already a battle axe dummy. Turn a tree into pulp quicker than an ace in Paul Bunyans hands
That is a hell of a bayonet
Still the undisputed champion for the coolest shotgun ever.
The lack of interest by British, French and Australians to the shotgun included the big issue of the incessant rain and mud, which ruined the paper cartridges and made them require so much care to keep dry. I read this in an Australian soldiers memoirs of the trenches in France and his experiences there. Nobody ever mention this.
Yanks had brass shells available from memory.
European countries likely didn't want to pay the extra.
@@lightly_salted_iroToo bad lacquered mild steel didn't exist back then. It would have been the perfect compromise between cost and durability.
@@hailexiao2770 WWI was heavily related to industrialized warfare even becoming possible. Such material innovations only came about *because* of those performance issues being discovered in the field.
One of my favorite firearms of all time
I really want one of these... probably the best shotgun ever made.
Great video, Ian...👍
Look, if some Yankee came in charging over the wire and blasting Fritz and Hans with a shotgun before gutting me with his bayonet, I'd be one Sour Kraut, too.
that bayonet is the most outstanding blade i've ever seen!
What I don't understand is why no one ever thought - because it has an exposed hammer - to give it a stock with a grip with a revolver-like contour to it (maybe with a backstrap to protect the shooting hand while cycling the action).
As an owner of an old-timey thumbskinner, that is my go-to longarm for home defense, it makes you intensely aware of keeping your hands where they belong during drills.
Later models had improved stocks.
It's really not a big deal once you're used to it. I've hurt myself more on the lifter sticking out the bottom when the action is opened than with the bolt.
It would have to be a two piece stock, since finding a single piece of hardwood with the right grain for a one piece of that shape would be insanely difficult.
1991 3rd Ranger Battalion we had bayonets on pump action shotguns in the "Special Weapons" arms room beside mp5ks... you would be amazed at the adjustments to attention span that a fixed bayonet does to the fauna.
Grate video!
Ian, the Stevens 520-30 is a more interesting trenchgun... and more forgotten for that matter.
And was also designed by John Browning, if that counts.
@@paleoph6168If you're looking at firearms developed in the late 19th/early 20th century....JMB did it or inspired it, a solid amount of the time.
Honestly couldn't think of anything worse than walking round a trench corner to be greeted with that thing, I'm not surprised the Germans complained haha