Exploring Beethoven's Fortepiano
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- Опубликовано: 25 май 2022
- Pianist and OAE Ambassador Cyrill Ibrahim travels to the Netherlands to find out more about the fortepianos that Beethoven composed for and the history of the instrument.
We get our hands on the very special fortepiano 'after' the great Viennese maker Conrad Graf that Sir András Schiff will perform Beethoven's Piano Concertos on with us in May/June 2022; Cyrill plays some Beethoven Bagatelles on it so we can hear its distinctive sound, and there's a bit of confusion with all the pedals...
With thanks to Edwin Beunk, Sjoerd Heijda, David Rowland and The Open University.
Find out more about Edwin's fortepiano collection at www.fortepiano.nl/edwin-beunk...
Follow Cyrill at / cyrillibrahim
Website: www.cyrillibrahim.com/
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Website: oae.co.uk
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We are grateful for the support of our OAE Corporate Partners:
Gramophone: www.gramophone.co.uk/
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I have long preferred an early piano to a modern one. Not entirely sure why, but they just sound better to me.
Most piano of the past, also had a different tuning standard A4 was tuned to either 430hz or 435hz. This is in contrast to modern instruments adhering to the standard concert pitch of 440hz.
@@andrewlim300 the bigger difference is that they used different temperaments which in certain keys generally sound more in tune than the modern compromise "let's make all keys equally bad" tuning.
me too
fortepianos are muhc mroe expressive, modenr painos tend to whitewash all the tone colors and sounds for ease of use and volume
Someone commented on another video "The first piano designs were "straight-strung" instruments, that's why we can hear the notes more individually without extra unwanted generated Harmonics alike, the new generation of Pianos which over produce an exaggerated amount of harmonics that for certain Repertoire, are not so "desirable"...........New Piano designers of today such as Steven Paulello...are trying to bring back this "particular old-feature" into the Modern Piano-World......"
In our collection you find around 25 Pianos of Beethoven's time and around 60 early keyboards of Mozart's time!! Wonder how come there is not much interest in the greater variety of 18th century keyboards and few collections worldwide with Mozart Pianos are not explored.
Are they restored? Curious if somebody builts it from the scratch authentically correct
Can I come and play some of them?
@@batner of course
@@PooyaRadbon It's near Basel right? It will take me about a year to organize a trip because I don't know how to tell my wife and kids that I'm dropping by Switzerland/Germany border for a weekend by myself.
The bass notes have such a pointed and distinctive tone, I like it
Almost resembling a cp80 in a way at times
A wonderful and highly interesting video. He plays the "Bagatellen" so beautifully that you can consider it as unfortunate that they were cut off.
Cyrill's joyful approach is infectious. Looking forward to more videos with him.
Pleasantly engaging. I could listen to him for two hours straight!
One of my professors at Ithaca College restored a Graf grand piano of this age. It is now in the collection of the Smithsonian and is used for concerts of period music. I heard the first concert on it after the restoration.
I want to know what Beethoven tuned his actual fortepiano to. There's talk of a 455.4 Hz fork he used for A, but I find that difficult to believe, considering that fortepianos of his time were not built to handle even 440 tuning, let alone 455 tuning. If that was his A# fork, his A fork would have been 430 Hz.
Bethoven and Schubert sounds beautifully in this Graf.He is a very good pianist indeed.
This was really enjoyable as I’ve been studying and playing the Bagatelles recently and I fantasize playing these on the FortePiano which is so much, much more beautiful and intricate than on a modern piano. Over the years, I’ve become a period instrumentalist refusing to hear recordings except when played on the instruments for which they were written… for the obvious reasons.
Beethoven's favorite piano was made by Johann Andreas Streicher. He was very deaf by the time he got the Graf.
Thanks for the information! Do you know of a video that shows the Streicher, or something with a similar sound? I'd like to know what piano sound Beethoven had in his mind from before he went deaf.
@@philipmcniel4908 Look for the YT channel 'Edwin Beunk Fortepiano Collection'. It discusses and demonstrates Instruments from about 1750 to about 1850, in a chronological series of videos, really well worth watching. And Tom Beghin on 'Beethoven's Pathétique Sonata, Opus 13 and the Back-Check', the YT channel Mark BEELDharing, talks about Streicher and Walter and the differences between them.
Absolutely fantastic, I would never imagine these amazing things about the piano, it's extraordinary, many thanks for this important information.
the dives into period instruments are most enlightening (if I may say so)
engaging and informative. Thank you OotAoE for all of them!
This has been a super interesting video.
A question to the editor though: was it really necessary to 'correct' mr. Heijda when he talks about the fortepiano/pianoforte, since the two terms are used interchangeably and are both valid?
Exactly
Well, for what I know, "pianoforte" is used for modern pianos, while "fortepiano" for old pianos like those Mozart/Beethoven used... but I might be wrong.
Different countries (and languages) give different meanings to the two words. In English "fortepiano" means a historical instrument. In another language (German IIRC) it just means a piano!
Jane Austen, who wrote Pride and Prejudice in 1813, remarked on Elizabeth Bennet’s ‘pianoforte’ playing.
The instrument was named by its inventor (in English) "Keyed cimbalom [i.e., harpsichord] with soft and loud." Those dynamics are _piano_ and _forte_ in Italian. Over time, the name was abbreviated interchangeably to _pianoforte_ or _fortepiano_ . In modern parlance, the familiar Steinwegian instrument is formally known as the pianoforte and its lightly-built forerunner as the fortepiano to differentiate them.
Your explanation is spot on. Old pianos don’t have the clarity and precision of modern instruments, but they more than make up for that by having an immense expressive potential. Beethoven was so adamant about his dynamics and expressive markings because it made a world of a difference to the piece’s character.
I think I’d like piano music more if I heard more of it on the period pianos… more overtones (prefer orchestral usually bc of this)
Wow. One really has to spend some time. I thought shallower key depth allowed less variety in timbre,shaping tone and getting varieties of dynamic and attack or touch. Beeth would have preferred today's big sound.106,79 even op.31 middle period Sonatas I can't imagine on a tinny sounding weak piano bed. I really must buy one!
Fascinating. Thanks for this!
Fascinating. Thank you.
Beautiful instrument. Good pianist. Always very interesting.
great video! some wonderful insights! thanks
Mo Salah, pianist of the year winner
Love it!
Me encanta el sonido del piano antiguo.
Loved this video. So interesting!
Loved this.
This sounds great! A really illustrative experience.
I really enjoyed this. 😊
I’d love to play Waldstein on Beethovens kind of Piano. Sometimes it seems impossible on modern pianos …
What is the piece he plays at 6:00 ??? I really love it but can't find it anywhere
7 Bagatelles Op. 33, 3. Allegretto
My best friend, that's a great video. I will always cheer for you in Korea I'm looking forward to a great video. Have a nice day.
Now I want to hear that supposedly dreadful "bassoon" pedal sound.
Update: There are actually a couple videos on YT showing playing with the bassoon pedal engaged. And even the "Turkish" mode with cymbals etc that was an vogue for a while.
The bassoon pedal does sound awful, but it also really does sound kinda bassoonish. Now I want to know how that works.
That was my thought as well!
The fact that one of the pedals is disconnected is...disconcerting. If the pedal existed on historical pianos, then it must have had some purpose, yes? Composers, performers, and audiences at the time must have wanted that "bassoon sound" at least sometimes, right?
look at the video on this channel for "mozart's fortepiano", which showcases an earlier piano with the "basoon" pedal.
Presumably not required for the Beethoven concertos with the OAE.
Maybe they never finished it
One obvious way of achieving Beethoven's ideal piano--one that produces a big sound that reaches audiences throughout large concert halls, yet has a light touch,,-could be achieved by the combination of fortepiano with good quality electronic amplification.
Piano Technicians input drives technological comparability and progress in sustain, touch, overtone balance, speed and fluidity of repetition....etc
would love to hear the bassoon pedal
Cyril Ibrahim, you have beautiful hands. I wish ... But I will have to do.
That's the reason one cannot play properly Debussy on the harpsichord and Couperin on the modern piano.
Looks like some hybrid between original Mozart piano (or Viennese fortepiano) and modern piano? especially as for pedals (they are to be right underneath the keyboard) as well as the colors of the keys were reversed like in clavesin (harpsichord)
Beethoven had much influence on the tremendous development of the modern piano through the tonal demands of his late piano sonatas.
4:43 This video editor keep correction this guy said "Pianoforte". 🤣
...sir, this may be a bit over the top, but I think I just fell in love with you.
What's the difference between fortepiano and pianoforte?
Beethoven was not merely a musician. He was a PHILOSOPHER! of PHILOSOPHERS! 🤔
I am a Beethoven specialist and I know what Beethoven wanted to improve on the pianos of his time. He wrote: "When will pianos stop sounding like harps!”
In your opinion, does that make modern pianos closer to or further away from Beethoven's wishes than the pianos of his day?
3:10 "The big heavy arm thing" well tbf, you get max power with what? Two inches of arm drop? It doesn't take much to reach the maximum volume of a piano (before producing bad tone).
I strongly recommend a very brief video by Boris Giltburg called “Piano Technique” where he shows what they meant here.
@@olivleonardo I know what they meant here, what are you trying to say? I hate heavy actions but regardless putting your whole weight into the keyboard is unnecessary. Max volume is really easy to reach on a concert grand.
The 19th century pianos used much different hammers too as the modern hammer press was not invented until late 19th century. They used several layers of leather, wool, rabbit fur and other coverings. This piano doesn't sound like it has period hammers. Also the music wire was different. Although you can get wire today that works on these pianos, they wire is not accurate to the original. Beethoven had an 1820 Broadwood which was louder
It sounds like a copy to me. I have played the antique fortepiano at Fenton House and it has a much subtler, sweeter sound which inspires careful playing.
It is stated in the video that this piano is a copy made in 1989.
unfortunately, in my almost 40 years of experience with original early pianos I must say that very very few piano players when confronted with an antique fortepiano are inspired to careful playing!!
So the piano was made nowadays but identical to the original beethoven fortepiano?
How tall is this guy looks like a giant!!
He wanted a modern action fitted inside his piano with the leather action.
Yes, some of the Beethoven sonatas do not work well on a modern piano.
which ones specifically?
@@batboy5023 all of them except the Moonlight Sonata.
how???@@eottoe2001
Which ones. AMajSonata no.2 needs shallow action perhaps.What others? Certain movements if u go back forth from pf to piano ?
@@MrInterestingthingsyou might not agree but the Moonlight Sonata on the pianoforte of the time is more personal and delicate sound. It is like Beethoven unplugged. It works on the modern Steinway of course in a concert hall, but I like it on the pianoforte of the time. On the other hand, it seems that Chopin wrote for the pianos of our time. Please understand, I'm no scholar on this or have a great ear. My mother haf the great ear for things like this and she has long passed.
8:48 excuse me?
P E N I $
i am confused as beethoven's piano had only 61 keys
Why do some people say pianoforte and others say fortepiano?
Because the order is arbitrary, it doesn't matter if you say "soft and loud" or "loud and soft".
Because they're different instruments.
clavichord > fortepiano > pianoforte (piano)
@@TonyBittner-Collins
Only to some they're different. Historically, both terms were used interchangeably to refer to the same historical instrument that later evolved into the modern piano (which only a few cultures/languages/countries still call a pianoforte).
@Persun_McPersonson Actually, plenty of people who are period instrument makers, organologists, and early music performers such as myself. I play the recorder, renaissance/baroque traverso, and viol.
@@TonyBittner-Collins
"Some" does not exclude "plenty". I'm not saying it's wrong to make such a distinction, but that it's also not more correct to do so.
I find period instruments to be interesting. But I can’t say I prefer them. Give me a modern Steinway or Mason & Hamlin any day.
I agree 100%.
A lack of clarity in modern pianos destroyed musicality it would seem.
oh shut up
Wrong.
Not helped by the equal temperament tuning.
Ok, so that isn't actually a fortepiano owned by Ludwig.
4:53 The correction of "pianoforte" to "fortepiano" is wholly unnecessary. According to the reference material in The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, these two words are synonyms. Think deeper as to what you are attempting to accomplish by having two separate definitions. There are hundreds if not thousands of historical models of the piano. Do you really wish to bundle all of those instruments into a single primitive category like that? Should fortepiano really represent a 1701 Cristofori original as well as a Graf 1825? Both of which, are nearly completely different instruments. This does not make sense. Especially when you consider that some instruments around 1830-1850 look and sound near identical to the modern grand but would not be considered as such. There's little to no similarity between any historical model of the piano. Here's a sensical solution:
1) pianoforte/fortepiano can be used interchangably to mean any historical piano.
2) piano, our modern piano.
3) When desiring to be specific say the brand and year of piano: ex. 1795 Dulcken.
4) Use "historic" as a prefix to any piano-like word.
The benefit of 3) is that readers and listeners will have a general idea of the kind of piano you are referring to. Does it have double escapement? No. White/black key colours swapped? Possibly. Metal frame? No. Backcheck? If installed. Leather hammers? Yes. Sustain? Yes. Foot-pedals? Possibly, likely not.
In this video, I think everyone would have understood the context without the correction. Now, one complaint may be that Russian speakers commonly refer to the piano as 'pianoforte.' My answer to that is we are smart human beings and can understand context.
They're different instruments though.
clavichord > fortepiano > pianoforte (piano)
@@TonyBittner-Collins That is not an accurate representation of piano development. The clavichord has no place on your timeline. I explained in detail my reasoning. I don't really see any convincing counter-argument here. Again there are thousands of historic pianos. Using the same word flipped to vaguely differentiate between modern pianos and old ones is silly and makes no sense. Like I said, some 1830 pianos are near indistinguishable to the modern grand. What do you call those?
@MegaMech Actually, it is. The fortepiano's mechanism derives from that of the clavichord as its strings are struck, not plucked like the harpsichord.
- Fortepiano: 18th century (straight-strung, no metal frame or bracing, no pedals but hand stops or knee levers).
- Pianoforte: 19th century onwards.
@@TonyBittner-Collins This alleged similarity does not equate to derision. The clavichord's tangent lifts the strings and contains a very primitive mechanism, it's quite different. In the early days of the piano, the Italians predominantly called it the harpsichord with loud and soft whereas the British soon after (iirc) just called it the piano or pianoforte/fortepiano. There was never a standardized name, people just called it whatever. Cristofori was well acquainted with both the harpsichord and the clavichord. To conclude that the piano is derived from one or the other and not both is not logical. I would go so far as to say it's just a different instrument, inspired perhaps, but to generate a family tree of keyboard instruments that claims the piano having birthed from the clavichord is facetious at best.
> 18th century (straight-strung, no metal frame or bracing, no pedals but hand stops or knee levers).
This is not accurate. Cast-iron frames were invented in 1825. The technology did not take off until the ~1850s. Pianos were not overstrung until the 1860s. I don't know where you got 'no pedals' from, but various pianoforte's had pedals since the 1770s.
This is why I propose we follow the academic reference material in The New Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians; the authority on music. Piano history is not black and white. The year 1800 did not roll around and suddenly we had the Steinway concert grand. Each piano maker used differing technologies and inventions. New technologies generally take around ten years to reach the market. Like I say, we can find a piano from 1830 very similar to our modern concert grand, and we can find pianos similar to that of like 1795 in the sense that it's missing a lot of the features we expect; double-escapement. So we can't do as you suggest because it's not that simple. To say that every piano in the 1800s is straight-strung, has a cast-iron frame, and pedals is simply not true. Not that straight-stringing should even be considered as a primitive versus modern technology both methods have advantages and disadvantages.
Same goes for the Baroque era, we simplify reality when we purport that the era ended when Bach died in 1750. This is wholly inaccurate as Bach was among the last musicians following Baroque traditions. Most others had been following classical/galant styles since 1720. I don't mind saying that Baroque era ended in 1750 because that's easy, so long as we know the situation is more complicated than that.
Great video highly interesting from a historical perspective but I think if Beethoven was handed a Steinway Grand which wasn't invented then he would have much preferred that this piano sounds like a toy compared to the great acoustic pianos of today Beethoven just had to work with the best he had work with.
6:53 terrible bassoon sounds
agreed! terrible indeed
The sound of it is irrelevant because Beethoven could hardly hear and likely composed sonorities out of his mind
He did specify a lot of technical details to which he wasn’t indifferent and that a fortepiano makes sense of.
@@olivleonardoyeah. When I thought about it again, he obviously wasn't deaf his whole life and that is the sound he knew. So he composed for it by memory after hearing damage
They can perorate all they want about old instruments, but as long as the establishment keeps ignoring the tempo markings, period performers will continue to get Beethoven fundamentally wrong. Beethoven composed in whole beat. As long as the establishment does not accept it a true Beethoven will continue to elude them, no matter what instrument they use.
No
Oh, man....WW fan? 🤨
This isn’t a school assignment. No one is taking points off for using too few words.
Beethoven didn't compose in whole beat. Whole beat wasn't even invented until about 1970.