I agree with a lot of your points. I really dislike when a company gives little updates stringing you along all while it seems like nothing substantial is being done.
100% agree with you there. Creative people need to team up with smart business people and challenge each other's vision to get the best possible product to costumers.
Personally, I think large companies need to stop using KS. They should be big enough to launch a new game without it. Which is why I’m voting with my wallet and I no longer back games from studios through KS. As long as people get blinded by bling and KS exclusives, businesses with shoddy business practices won’t have any incentive to do better.
There are two points in the development of a product that crowdfuning works well + way too early + right before the product is ready The games that are way too early are the ones who take way too long to get to you. The games that are right before product could go get a loan or something, take more risk, and potentially not produce anymore. It is better for the connection to be between the gamers and the company than the bank and the company, right?
Overtime, I tend to skip the 1st KS print runs and go for the 2nd one where I know they have proven themselves and have delivered the product. Also, I tend to only KS/Gamefound/Backerkit games that have companies with a proven track record like Holy Grail Games, CMON, Level99, IV Studios, Mindclash, etc. These companies are not without their issues, but generally you tend to get your games with these companies. I have some horror stories where the creator simply took the money and ran and never delivered squat.
I kinda feel like this is a big turning point for crowd funded board games. If companies don't get things straightened out they're not going to make it. It seems like it's the death of big box campaign games.
I haven’t taken issue with this stuff as it kind of comes with the territory, but you’re right. The space is growing and there’s not really any reason we can’t be better.
As someone new to the scene I totally agree with what you're saying. I've only received Xmen united and Townsfolk tussel and both those were totally different experiences. With Townsfolk it seemed to me to be a seamless process and everything arrived looking amazing, Xmen united I recieved cards that were in plastic wrap but had damaged edges, minis that were scuffed or were damaged and broken storage cases(not sure how the boxes looked undamaged but the inside was a mess for 2 or 3 expansions). Imagne my shock when I found out the team behind Townsfolk was a smaller team and a first time project while the other was a huge company that has been at KS for years. And communication is a must for sure, probably the biggest problem atm. While not shareholders or "true" investors we are very similar to investors. We dont come to them asking for new product or for support it's the other way around the least they could afford us is detailed info on progression of the product. And even when problems do arise let us know what you're doing to fix it. In my line of work if you're a project lead and constantly bring up problems your the site manager without what you're doing to rectify the problems you WILL find yourself replaced with someone that can fix problems in a more timely manner in no time. The fact that some publishers think complete radio silence is cool is mindboggling.
I think a lot of it is due to that inexperienced people want to actually succeed and are nervous whereas experienced people already "made it" and don't think they need to do anything. Most people think inexperienced means mistakes and often they don't care. Which can be true. But experienced or people who already made money can often take it for granted and become lackadaisical in their approach.
I think you just had a bad box with X-men. My pledge was perfect. That being said I’ve gotten games from that company that had typos galore which is pretty sloppy and kind of inexcusable.
@@Twineandribbon Several people got a "bad box". I wasnt alone in this, you could check out their comment section and reddit, dozens or tickets were made with people asking for replacements for broken or damaged items.
@@karaso0 so when someone delivers broken eggs to your house do you call the chicken farm to complain? I’m complaining that they could edit better because that is clearly within their control. If a few dozen boxes out of thousands were mishandled by a carrier service but the majority arrived fine I think we can narrow probable cause to the carrier service. It’s not really a complaint you can leverage at the designer or producing company.
@@Twineandribbon Listen you clearly didnt read my issue. The exterior of the boxes were totally fine, the damage was all internal. Minis had damage that was clearly during production, either xone either during the molding process or right after. This could be easily spotted by the discoloration and the bending. The cases that held the Stretch was nearly in pieces due to it being fragile and it made to support much weight. I'm glad yours was pristine but giving I'm not the only one with similar issues proves im no outlier. Cmon has even made a statement they'll be making higher quality inserts for future shipping so it's not like they dont know. Not sure why you feel so personally attacked but your egg analogy was childish, wrong and totally irrelevant to my situation.
I take your point about good communication and transparency. As an aside and playing the devil’s advocate, as a backer I don’t really want to know about every single delay to a project and only really want to know when there is a major update or something to be concerned about. It’s not like I can do anything to help fix the delay. Also it is really the developer/publisher’s role to manage issues as they arise. So long as they are open about changes to timeframes etc, I probably don’t want to know the detail. I think a bigger issue in our industry is boardgame ‘bloat’, where underdeveloped games are hitting the market via KS campaigns and people are buying into them due to FOMO. Making add ons or game content KS exclusive or deluxe with lack of ability for new players to easily acquire it is a huge problem. It’s causing publishers to adopt some questionable behaviours.
the market always corrects itaself, there will be many people that will get hurt and disappointed but eventually the scam companies will be filtered out
My latest update for a kickstarter ( unnamed ) that is 18+ months in, was to tell us about shipping and production delays due to lock downs...ect. I get that. However in the same update you tell me that the artwork is "almost" finalized. What? Wait... what have you been doing for the last 18 months? Did you even have a game when you launched? You have no proofs, no submitted files, no production? A second larger publisher just released 2 games back to back and decided to ship them together to save money, They told us how they cheeped out on the components to save even more money even though this was backed as a deluxe version. Until we speak with our wallet, things will not change. These two companies will get no future business from me on crowd funding platforms.
With the first Zombicide KS the Boardgame industry exploded in popularity and growth, but now too many amateurs companies are trying to emulate past successes, but their bad practices will scare the majority of mindful backers. Maybe only a hand of companies with this "business model" will survive at cost of deep pocket backers. At the end of the day, they don't really need that sales volume if the prices make up for it.
The amount of publishers that do not externally play test their game enough is a little staggering. Externally playtesting a game is like throwing money into a black hole, it’s hard to see the results. Another thing that needs to change in our industry are fans of publishers not holding them accountable. Well there is certainly too much negativity with some publishers, others are too forgiving
As someone that has some experience with this, the biggest issue is time or more accurately money. We at Nemesis Games are only 3 people and we made 700k with our latest campaign and we still can't really pay ourselves. We WILL have to release or rerelease a new game within 2-3 years if we want to keep making games. Now imagine a bigger publisher with 10 employees. They HAVE to get the game out, no matter what and start the next project, because they have an obligation to their employees. Is this great for our hobby? Obviously not. Is there a way to fix it? Only if people were willing to pay even more for board games, which frankly are already a bit of a luxury good.
Is it possible to have a retail option that could keep income flowing while you work on larger "deluxe" board games? Cmon has nailed the KS model down with production, but then offer a modest Retail option.
@@GameBrigade We're already offering our games for the lowest price possible. Retail would have to increase the price to a point where nobody would buy it for that much. Alternatively we could raise the price for everyone to give retail a discount, but... why?
Yes, a lot of these new companies are poorly managed. We should expect that when we pledge, because: (1) Good management skills are rare. Most companies are mismanaged, everywhere. (2) These game developers came to our attention because they have great game creation skills. Very little of that carries over to management skills, communication skills, marketing skills, and handling logistics. Thanks for an excellent video. - toby
While I agree with many of your points, I think the reason we don't get updates sometimes is because their is really no updates to talk about. Specifically when you have these Narrative heavy games. Like one of the updates for Frosthaven was all about the Narrative, and about someone spellchecking and going over it, then the next update we got was Yeah we really have nothing new, just doing similar stuff to the last update. If you think about it many of these Narrative Heavy games are making a Novels worth of story line to go with it. It takes Novels years to be created. Another thing I noticed is the creators don't want to reveal stuff, like the recent Stormsunder update basically showed us the branching paths of all the missions, but only of a small part of Stormsunder, and the reason he said he was just showing minis for several updates, is because He didn't think people would like to be spoiled on all the detailed story line that he was creating, he then changed his mind after other people on his team told him that he should.
I think I tend to agree with you on the lack of comms, or poor comms, coming from some KS projects. I think, for me, there's an underlying question that needs to be better answered, and that's the question (and to keep it in your relationship analogy) around what kind of relationship is created by consumers participating in crowdfunding. I feel the KS/GF crowdfunding model really blurs the line between a traditional business-consumer relationship and between a company-investor relationship. I think what you're describing is situations where you actually get the worst of both models: bad customer service/lack of accountability, but also the risk of not getting your 'Return on Investment' (which, with a KS, is a product, as opposed to dividend, so to speak). I think it's this fuzziness that causing campaigns to run poorly, and I don't think smaller publishers (and noted: there are also good examples out there!) know how to deal with this model: financially/financial modelling, business planning/project wise, stakeholder/customer management wise. I think that's where the cause perhaps sits. Thoughts?
I will further add about the Mythic situation, by looking at it by their perspective, They see Darkest Dungeon needs more funding for shipping, and we can't pay for that now, but if our Anastyr game succeeds we can pay for it. Then most likely they are not going to tell us the problem with Darkest Dungeon until after their Anastyr kickstarter because if they do their will be backlash regardless. While on the other hand if Anastyr does really great, we can pay for all that extra shipping cost our self and come off looking good to backers. People say its a problem with Mythic's communication but the reality is even if they revealed their problems with Darkest Dungeon shipping ahead of time, people would still be pissed.
You should check out today’s update from Judgment: Eternal Champions. They could be an example for you to point to if good practice as you describe it - exemplars in the KS scene. Their update is thoughtful and includes contingency planning and breakdown of financial implications. Those guys seem to know their business, have operational foresight and good judgment.
All of these are reasonable points, but none of the issues discussed are new. Unfortunately, the dysfunction on display by various companies and their use of crowdfunding platforms (predominantly KS) has become normalized because the only viable option backers have collectively is to not pledge funds for a title. I do think some recent events (like CMON's shipping price changes and the subsequent backlash) have given people pause and an opportunity to reconsider their choices. On the company-side, FunForge recently announced they were leaving KS because it doesn't meet their needs as a company (and IMHO the decision was long overdue). There are some companies that are very professional in their approach to community and expectation management, but they are the exception rather than rule.
I have become very very very cautious about what I back and from what companies! I find 2nd prints to be of better quality and from companies that at least delived the first time around. And I am looking at more retail games because the days of the great KS deals has come and gone!
I think the problem is a misconception that creators have that crowdfund a game. Having a vision of a great game does not mean you know (1) How production works (2) What is the cheapest way to manufacture (3) Timelines (4) Logistics (5) How shipping works (6) How to communicate (7) How to manage money (8) How to run a company and hire staff Often times, creators probably think they know how to navigate and maneuver items 1-8, but simply do not. Creating a board game is complex and without a fair understanding of these items, you can get yourself in quite a pickle.
This is a problem with Kickstarters, not the game industry. Slope's Game Room's Kickscammers series already does a great job covering this problem. The biggest problem with the board game industry is the censorious bigotry of the far Left that has invaded every facet of it, that keeps independent creators/publishers from actually selling their games once they've been produced, purely based on their political ideology.
Brian, I watched this entire video, and I have one big disagreement with you: I think you feel this is a polite rant. I think it's a tutorial! New, Indie boardgame makers should study it so that they can avoid common mistakes. - toby
Golden era of boardgaming is over. Now it's recycling era where all the games blend with each other and money grabs with IPs, etc. I'm glad I bought most of my games between 2018 and 2021. Crowdfunding has become unbearable and games have become hyper expensive. These days one cannot hold creators accountable for their mistakes and lack of communication without being called "toxic" and "negative" in the comments section. Shipping is expensive, VAT started to add 19% to the total value of the EU pledges, etc. Too many cons to back games today. I feel sorry for the folks that just now discovered boardgames and will pay a lot more than me to have a nice gama collection. I will back the occasional special game but the time of backing 3/4 games a months is over. I will probably back 3-4 games a year if so. And even if I didn't make a proper study about it I get the feeling that funding total that games make is much less than a few years ago. Maybe the bubble finally busted.
Lots of truth in this. I've commented on games that come in eventually an see the value.we used to get from crowdfunding. Hard to see that same value these days.
If you aspire to be an influencer then you absolutely should be naming names every time it is relevant to your audience. Your advice is worth a lot less if you are quick to be positive and tell people to buy something but reluctant to name names when appropriate
I don't agree with you "not naming names" because that just helps the shady businesses continue their bad practices "in secret." I understand that some companies will stop sending you prototypes, but they should be called out for that as well. I'll start: Panda Cult Games went silent on their Wander: LaCluck's Revenge campaign for months, then came back and said "we're back on track," and followed that with going silent and no updates for over two months now. They have even removed their FB page. Meanwhile, they attend cons nearly every month and promote the game they went silent on. I cancelled my pledge. The Red Joker has stopped all communication and updates on Okko Chronicles: Cycle of Earth campaign for over five months now. Backers are wondering if they will even deliver the game at all. I'm waiting to see what happens to determine if I request a refund (which I probably won't get). No one calls them out on this, so they just keep hiding from us with no repercussion.
Monumental.. 😭👀 I put so much money in to it and they're likely using backers money to fund another games production. Really poor from the company IMO.
The company has said they are now out of money. The project is two years since it was funded and we dont even know if its actually been manufactured at this point. They said they will work on fulfilling their first KS game, then they will do Monumental. Idk how but they really blew it and lost all their cash.
@@GameBrigade yeah terrible to see. £250 wasted, I was the fence about this project as well because of the price. I guess it's a bit of a wake up call for me to think more carefully before backing! 😮💨 Would have been nice to know the situation before backing, but then they wouldn't fund.
Communication is everything. Sometimes things are out of your control, but you can share the efforts you are making to get firmer dates or info from the factory etc, or even if it is just playtesting, finding an issue and improving the game. No game is perfect out the gate so hearing about how bugs are ironed out is awesome to hear it will be a better game for everyone.
Yaaaaa but it mostly equals Kickstarter/crowdfunding 😂 That’s where all the big games go to and where all the buzz comes from. Yes there are exceptions but without crowdfunding the industry is waaaaaaay smaller and less relevant.
@@jasonherdman6344 thay wrong but either way ... thats like me saying , the main problem with the movie industry and i spend 30 min just talking about harry potter Just name ur topic properly ...
I sorry but I have no sympathy for your plight. Boardgames are like books, they're meant to be bought for enjoyment and last a lifetime. They're not the new playstation that is going to be replaced in 4 years. The best ones are the classics, just like in literature. If someone came to you and asked "how do I get into reading more books" you're going to point them to Jane Austen and Charles Dickens, not the current NY Times best seller list. And yet you guys are just looking to buy the latest kickstarter product without any scrutiny or demonstration and then complain when it doesn't live up to your expectations. There are dozens of boardgames that have been successful for years that I'm sure you haven't even looked into. Why not try them for a change, see how they play and what people think of them. You might enjoy yourself more than just backing a random game no one's ever heard of just because it looks nice on a screen.
@@ioannispaxinos5171 your reply has nothing to do with the point of the video. I'm calling out publishers for their continued excuses and poor performance and you're talking about playing older games. It's a separate point, but not what this video is talking about.
@@GameBrigade It's actually exactly the same issue, but it makes complete sense that you don't see it this way. If you did you wouldn't be having this problem. Looking to kickstarter for new games all the time, a platform which requires no accountability, which is just looking to take your money without any guarantee they'll even bring out the product, let alone in a timely, efficient manner is reflective of the overall problem in the industry. You're just looking to buy the shiny new toy, which looks fancy and has a boatload of overproduced components to tempt you and, surprise surprise, turns out it's a rudimentary game design and the publisher has no clue how to properly produce and distribute games because he's just trying to make a quick buck off this bubble we've been living in the past few years.
@@ioannispaxinos5171 again such a short sighted view of the situation. Kickstarter is a large part of our hobby, and just because you don't like it, doesn't mean others don't utilize it. Keep buying retail games, that's fine, but again this video isn't talking about that.
I don't agree Scott. The mistakes Brian talked about are very much a phenomenon we commonly see in young start-ups. Either the business will mature and find its balance or it will fail and shut down. Yes, even video games need patches after launch, but right now we are witnessing many rookie mistakes that need to be resolved. Communication is key. ;)
Yeah I think this is all able to be resolved, but people don't realize that many publishers are super indie and don't have much business acumen. It's showing once we hit a bump in the road.
Well, I have a real problem with this video. My experience has seen backers just trolling the product makers when things go wrong. They seem to forget that Kickstarter is not a catalog to buy games. It is risky and complex, and not all of it will be great. That is why we do Kickstarter to give folks an entry to making games and other things. Not a good video. +1 Dislike. +1 Unsubscribed.
If you choose to unsubscribe because of one video then that's fine. There is a lot more to the several years of free content I've provided, but that's on you. Good luck.
And I will likely see more of your stuff as it is associated with BBG videos--that is how I found you before, and I thank you for your content that focuses on games. Thank you for the good work.
I think there is a very real difference between the concerns explained in this video vs. the vocal minority of complainers in every KS comments section prattling on about whatever is the current nonsense thing to be annoyed about. If anything this video is explaining how to be better as a company to avoid mistakes that others have made.
I agree with a lot of your points. I really dislike when a company gives little updates stringing you along all while it seems like nothing substantial is being done.
100% agree with you there.
Creative people need to team up with smart business people and challenge each other's vision to get the best possible product to costumers.
Personally, I think large companies need to stop using KS. They should be big enough to launch a new game without it. Which is why I’m voting with my wallet and I no longer back games from studios through KS.
As long as people get blinded by bling and KS exclusives, businesses with shoddy business practices won’t have any incentive to do better.
Bingo, doing the same here.
word
I have the same policy.
Many of these games because of the size of them, wouldn't sell in retail.
There are two points in the development of a product that crowdfuning works well
+ way too early
+ right before the product is ready
The games that are way too early are the ones who take way too long to get to you.
The games that are right before product could go get a loan or something, take more risk, and potentially not produce anymore. It is better for the connection to be between the gamers and the company than the bank and the company, right?
Overtime, I tend to skip the 1st KS print runs and go for the 2nd one where I know they have proven themselves and have delivered the product. Also, I tend to only KS/Gamefound/Backerkit games that have companies with a proven track record like Holy Grail Games, CMON, Level99, IV Studios, Mindclash, etc. These companies are not without their issues, but generally you tend to get your games with these companies. I have some horror stories where the creator simply took the money and ran and never delivered squat.
I kinda feel like this is a big turning point for crowd funded board games. If companies don't get things straightened out they're not going to make it. It seems like it's the death of big box campaign games.
Part of me agrees, but as long as people have an expendable income I think you will still see some, just not as many
At least the "oversized box with 95% minis instead of actual gameplay" box.
@@pawelmazur8318 and that’s a good thing for sure.
Well said.
I haven’t taken issue with this stuff as it kind of comes with the territory, but you’re right. The space is growing and there’s not really any reason we can’t be better.
As someone new to the scene I totally agree with what you're saying. I've only received Xmen united and Townsfolk tussel and both those were totally different experiences. With Townsfolk it seemed to me to be a seamless process and everything arrived looking amazing, Xmen united I recieved cards that were in plastic wrap but had damaged edges, minis that were scuffed or were damaged and broken storage cases(not sure how the boxes looked undamaged but the inside was a mess for 2 or 3 expansions). Imagne my shock when I found out the team behind Townsfolk was a smaller team and a first time project while the other was a huge company that has been at KS for years.
And communication is a must for sure, probably the biggest problem atm. While not shareholders or "true" investors we are very similar to investors. We dont come to them asking for new product or for support it's the other way around the least they could afford us is detailed info on progression of the product. And even when problems do arise let us know what you're doing to fix it. In my line of work if you're a project lead and constantly bring up problems your the site manager without what you're doing to rectify the problems you WILL find yourself replaced with someone that can fix problems in a more timely manner in no time. The fact that some publishers think complete radio silence is cool is mindboggling.
I think a lot of it is due to that inexperienced people want to actually succeed and are nervous whereas experienced people already "made it" and don't think they need to do anything. Most people think inexperienced means mistakes and often they don't care. Which can be true. But experienced or people who already made money can often take it for granted and become lackadaisical in their approach.
I think you just had a bad box with X-men. My pledge was perfect. That being said I’ve gotten games from that company that had typos galore which is pretty sloppy and kind of inexcusable.
@@Twineandribbon Several people got a "bad box". I wasnt alone in this, you could check out their comment section and reddit, dozens or tickets were made with people asking for replacements for broken or damaged items.
@@karaso0 so when someone delivers broken eggs to your house do you call the chicken farm to complain? I’m complaining that they could edit better because that is clearly within their control. If a few dozen boxes out of thousands were mishandled by a carrier service but the majority arrived fine I think we can narrow probable cause to the carrier service. It’s not really a complaint you can leverage at the designer or producing company.
@@Twineandribbon Listen you clearly didnt read my issue. The exterior of the boxes were totally fine, the damage was all internal. Minis had damage that was clearly during production, either xone either during the molding process or right after. This could be easily spotted by the discoloration and the bending. The cases that held the Stretch was nearly in pieces due to it being fragile and it made to support much weight.
I'm glad yours was pristine but giving I'm not the only one with similar issues proves im no outlier. Cmon has even made a statement they'll be making higher quality inserts for future shipping so it's not like they dont know. Not sure why you feel so personally attacked but your egg analogy was childish, wrong and totally irrelevant to my situation.
I like the subtle way of also displaying those boardgames in which were published by well regarded game produces, which does NOT use KS 😁
I take your point about good communication and transparency. As an aside and playing the devil’s advocate, as a backer I don’t really want to know about every single delay to a project and only really want to know when there is a major update or something to be concerned about. It’s not like I can do anything to help fix the delay. Also it is really the developer/publisher’s role to manage issues as they arise. So long as they are open about changes to timeframes etc, I probably don’t want to know the detail. I think a bigger issue in our industry is boardgame ‘bloat’, where underdeveloped games are hitting the market via KS campaigns and people are buying into them due to FOMO. Making add ons or game content KS exclusive or deluxe with lack of ability for new players to easily acquire it is a huge problem. It’s causing publishers to adopt some questionable behaviours.
I watch you from Russia, every episode, you tell a very cool story, it's always a pleasure to hear from you!
Cheers! Thanks for being awesome and welcome to the brigade
the market always corrects itaself, there will be many people that will get hurt and disappointed but eventually the scam companies will be filtered out
foll me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me.
This is such a great video. I think I'm going to have to start a section on my website where I can link to great videos like this one.
My latest update for a kickstarter ( unnamed ) that is 18+ months in, was to tell us about shipping and production delays due to lock downs...ect. I get that. However in the same update you tell me that the artwork is "almost" finalized. What? Wait... what have you been doing for the last 18 months? Did you even have a game when you launched? You have no proofs, no submitted files, no production?
A second larger publisher just released 2 games back to back and decided to ship them together to save money, They told us how they cheeped out on the components to save even more money even though this was backed as a deluxe version.
Until we speak with our wallet, things will not change. These two companies will get no future business from me on crowd funding platforms.
With the first Zombicide KS the Boardgame industry exploded in popularity and growth, but now too many amateurs companies are trying to emulate past successes, but their bad practices will scare the majority of mindful backers. Maybe only a hand of companies with this "business model" will survive at cost of deep pocket backers. At the end of the day, they don't really need that sales volume if the prices make up for it.
Great video! I admire your unwillingness to name names. I’m not capable of holding back like that myself hahaha
Thank you Grumpy :)
The amount of publishers that do not externally play test their game enough is a little staggering. Externally playtesting a game is like throwing money into a black hole, it’s hard to see the results. Another thing that needs to change in our industry are fans of publishers not holding them accountable. Well there is certainly too much negativity with some publishers, others are too forgiving
As someone that has some experience with this, the biggest issue is time or more accurately money.
We at Nemesis Games are only 3 people and we made 700k with our latest campaign and we still can't really pay ourselves. We WILL have to release or rerelease a new game within 2-3 years if we want to keep making games.
Now imagine a bigger publisher with 10 employees. They HAVE to get the game out, no matter what and start the next project, because they have an obligation to their employees.
Is this great for our hobby? Obviously not. Is there a way to fix it? Only if people were willing to pay even more for board games, which frankly are already a bit of a luxury good.
Is it possible to have a retail option that could keep income flowing while you work on larger "deluxe" board games? Cmon has nailed the KS model down with production, but then offer a modest Retail option.
@@GameBrigade We're already offering our games for the lowest price possible. Retail would have to increase the price to a point where nobody would buy it for that much.
Alternatively we could raise the price for everyone to give retail a discount, but... why?
Yes, a lot of these new companies are poorly managed. We should expect that when we pledge, because: (1) Good management skills are rare. Most companies are mismanaged, everywhere. (2) These game developers came to our attention because they have great game creation skills. Very little of that carries over to management skills, communication skills, marketing skills, and handling logistics. Thanks for an excellent video. - toby
Thank you for the comment Toby!
While I agree with many of your points, I think the reason we don't get updates sometimes is because their is really no updates to talk about. Specifically when you have these Narrative heavy games. Like one of the updates for Frosthaven was all about the Narrative, and about someone spellchecking and going over it, then the next update we got was Yeah we really have nothing new, just doing similar stuff to the last update. If you think about it many of these Narrative Heavy games are making a Novels worth of story line to go with it. It takes Novels years to be created. Another thing I noticed is the creators don't want to reveal stuff, like the recent Stormsunder update basically showed us the branching paths of all the missions, but only of a small part of Stormsunder, and the reason he said he was just showing minis for several updates, is because He didn't think people would like to be spoiled on all the detailed story line that he was creating, he then changed his mind after other people on his team told him that he should.
I think I tend to agree with you on the lack of comms, or poor comms, coming from some KS projects. I think, for me, there's an underlying question that needs to be better answered, and that's the question (and to keep it in your relationship analogy) around what kind of relationship is created by consumers participating in crowdfunding. I feel the KS/GF crowdfunding model really blurs the line between a traditional business-consumer relationship and between a company-investor relationship. I think what you're describing is situations where you actually get the worst of both models: bad customer service/lack of accountability, but also the risk of not getting your 'Return on Investment' (which, with a KS, is a product, as opposed to dividend, so to speak). I think it's this fuzziness that causing campaigns to run poorly, and I don't think smaller publishers (and noted: there are also good examples out there!) know how to deal with this model: financially/financial modelling, business planning/project wise, stakeholder/customer management wise. I think that's where the cause perhaps sits. Thoughts?
I will further add about the Mythic situation, by looking at it by their perspective, They see Darkest Dungeon needs more funding for shipping, and we can't pay for that now, but if our Anastyr game succeeds we can pay for it. Then most likely they are not going to tell us the problem with Darkest Dungeon until after their Anastyr kickstarter because if they do their will be backlash regardless. While on the other hand if Anastyr does really great, we can pay for all that extra shipping cost our self and come off looking good to backers. People say its a problem with Mythic's communication but the reality is even if they revealed their problems with Darkest Dungeon shipping ahead of time, people would still be pissed.
You should check out today’s update from Judgment: Eternal Champions. They could be an example for you to point to if good practice as you describe it - exemplars in the KS scene.
Their update is thoughtful and includes contingency planning and breakdown of financial implications. Those guys seem to know their business, have operational foresight and good judgment.
Proactive communication! YES!
All of these are reasonable points, but none of the issues discussed are new. Unfortunately, the dysfunction on display by various companies and their use of crowdfunding platforms (predominantly KS) has become normalized because the only viable option backers have collectively is to not pledge funds for a title. I do think some recent events (like CMON's shipping price changes and the subsequent backlash) have given people pause and an opportunity to reconsider their choices. On the company-side, FunForge recently announced they were leaving KS because it doesn't meet their needs as a company (and IMHO the decision was long overdue).
There are some companies that are very professional in their approach to community and expectation management, but they are the exception rather than rule.
I have become very very very cautious about what I back and from what companies! I find 2nd prints to be of better quality and from companies that at least delived the first time around. And I am looking at more retail games because the days of the great KS deals has come and gone!
I think the problem is a misconception that creators have that crowdfund a game. Having a vision of a great game does not mean you know (1) How production works (2) What is the cheapest way to manufacture (3) Timelines (4) Logistics (5) How shipping works (6) How to communicate (7) How to manage money (8) How to run a company and hire staff
Often times, creators probably think they know how to navigate and maneuver items 1-8, but simply do not.
Creating a board game is complex and without a fair understanding of these items, you can get yourself in quite a pickle.
This is a problem with Kickstarters, not the game industry. Slope's Game Room's Kickscammers series already does a great job covering this problem. The biggest problem with the board game industry is the censorious bigotry of the far Left that has invaded every facet of it, that keeps independent creators/publishers from actually selling their games once they've been produced, purely based on their political ideology.
Congratulations on having the most mindless, factually incorrect comment here!
@@Gamebent1 what experience do you have as an indie game publisher?
Great video mate!
Brian, I watched this entire video, and I have one big disagreement with you: I think you feel this is a polite rant. I think it's a tutorial! New, Indie boardgame makers should study it so that they can avoid common mistakes. - toby
Golden era of boardgaming is over. Now it's recycling era where all the games blend with each other and money grabs with IPs, etc. I'm glad I bought most of my games between 2018 and 2021. Crowdfunding has become unbearable and games have become hyper expensive. These days one cannot hold creators accountable for their mistakes and lack of communication without being called "toxic" and "negative" in the comments section. Shipping is expensive, VAT started to add 19% to the total value of the EU pledges, etc. Too many cons to back games today. I feel sorry for the folks that just now discovered boardgames and will pay a lot more than me to have a nice gama collection. I will back the occasional special game but the time of backing 3/4 games a months is over. I will probably back 3-4 games a year if so. And even if I didn't make a proper study about it I get the feeling that funding total that games make is much less than a few years ago. Maybe the bubble finally busted.
Lots of truth in this. I've commented on games that come in eventually an see the value.we used to get from crowdfunding. Hard to see that same value these days.
If you aspire to be an influencer then you absolutely should be naming names every time it is relevant to your audience.
Your advice is worth a lot less if you are quick to be positive and tell people to buy something but reluctant to name names when appropriate
I don't agree with you "not naming names" because that just helps the shady businesses continue their bad practices "in secret." I understand that some companies will stop sending you prototypes, but they should be called out for that as well.
I'll start: Panda Cult Games went silent on their Wander: LaCluck's Revenge campaign for months, then came back and said "we're back on track," and followed that with going silent and no updates for over two months now. They have even removed their FB page. Meanwhile, they attend cons nearly every month and promote the game they went silent on. I cancelled my pledge. The Red Joker has stopped all communication and updates on Okko Chronicles: Cycle of Earth campaign for over five months now. Backers are wondering if they will even deliver the game at all. I'm waiting to see what happens to determine if I request a refund (which I probably won't get).
No one calls them out on this, so they just keep hiding from us with no repercussion.
Monumental.. 😭👀 I put so much money in to it and they're likely using backers money to fund another games production. Really poor from the company IMO.
Let's not get started on monumental....
Why?
The company has said they are now out of money. The project is two years since it was funded and we dont even know if its actually been manufactured at this point. They said they will work on fulfilling their first KS game, then they will do Monumental. Idk how but they really blew it and lost all their cash.
@@GameBrigade yeah terrible to see. £250 wasted, I was the fence about this project as well because of the price. I guess it's a bit of a wake up call for me to think more carefully before backing! 😮💨 Would have been nice to know the situation before backing, but then they wouldn't fund.
Fail Forge is a case study in how not to run a KSer.
Communication is everything. Sometimes things are out of your control, but you can share the efforts you are making to get firmer dates or info from the factory etc, or even if it is just playtesting, finding an issue and improving the game. No game is perfect out the gate so hearing about how bugs are ironed out is awesome to hear it will be a better game for everyone.
Exactly. I'm surprised how much slack gamers are willing to give if they hear positive updates.
Yep totally agree.
Hey Bryan - It's Toby from Shadowborne Games. Did you get my email a few weeks ago?
Replied to your email, not sure how I missed it.
Dude board game industry does not equal only kickstarter ... how about u change the title or just change it to problem with kickstarter etc
According to Bryan my guy
Yaaaaa but it mostly equals Kickstarter/crowdfunding 😂 That’s where all the big games go to and where all the buzz comes from. Yes there are exceptions but without crowdfunding the industry is waaaaaaay smaller and less relevant.
@@jasonherdman6344 thay wrong but either way ... thats like me saying , the main problem with the movie industry and i spend 30 min just talking about harry potter
Just name ur topic properly ...
@@thecrabbydice I see why they call you the crabby dice 😂
@@jasonherdman6344 lol n1
I see NetRunner, I upvote.
We're simple men you and I
I sorry but I have no sympathy for your plight. Boardgames are like books, they're meant to be bought for enjoyment and last a lifetime. They're not the new playstation that is going to be replaced in 4 years. The best ones are the classics, just like in literature. If someone came to you and asked "how do I get into reading more books" you're going to point them to Jane Austen and Charles Dickens, not the current NY Times best seller list. And yet you guys are just looking to buy the latest kickstarter product without any scrutiny or demonstration and then complain when it doesn't live up to your expectations. There are dozens of boardgames that have been successful for years that I'm sure you haven't even looked into. Why not try them for a change, see how they play and what people think of them. You might enjoy yourself more than just backing a random game no one's ever heard of just because it looks nice on a screen.
Ok dude 👌
@@GameBrigade Οr not I guess.
@@ioannispaxinos5171 your reply has nothing to do with the point of the video. I'm calling out publishers for their continued excuses and poor performance and you're talking about playing older games. It's a separate point, but not what this video is talking about.
@@GameBrigade It's actually exactly the same issue, but it makes complete sense that you don't see it this way. If you did you wouldn't be having this problem. Looking to kickstarter for new games all the time, a platform which requires no accountability, which is just looking to take your money without any guarantee they'll even bring out the product, let alone in a timely, efficient manner is reflective of the overall problem in the industry. You're just looking to buy the shiny new toy, which looks fancy and has a boatload of overproduced components to tempt you and, surprise surprise, turns out it's a rudimentary game design and the publisher has no clue how to properly produce and distribute games because he's just trying to make a quick buck off this bubble we've been living in the past few years.
@@ioannispaxinos5171 again such a short sighted view of the situation. Kickstarter is a large part of our hobby, and just because you don't like it, doesn't mean others don't utilize it.
Keep buying retail games, that's fine, but again this video isn't talking about that.
I hear your frustrations, but you're hoping for something that's never going to happen, not just in kickstarter board games but in every industry.
I don't agree Scott. The mistakes Brian talked about are very much a phenomenon we commonly see in young start-ups. Either the business will mature and find its balance or it will fail and shut down.
Yes, even video games need patches after launch, but right now we are witnessing many rookie mistakes that need to be resolved. Communication is key. ;)
Yeah I think this is all able to be resolved, but people don't realize that many publishers are super indie and don't have much business acumen. It's showing once we hit a bump in the road.
Well, I have a real problem with this video. My experience has seen backers just trolling the product makers when things go wrong. They seem to forget that Kickstarter is not a catalog to buy games. It is risky and complex, and not all of it will be great. That is why we do Kickstarter to give folks an entry to making games and other things. Not a good video. +1 Dislike. +1 Unsubscribed.
If you choose to unsubscribe because of one video then that's fine. There is a lot more to the several years of free content I've provided, but that's on you. Good luck.
And I will likely see more of your stuff as it is associated with BBG videos--that is how I found you before, and I thank you for your content that focuses on games. Thank you for the good work.
I think there is a very real difference between the concerns explained in this video vs. the vocal minority of complainers in every KS comments section prattling on about whatever is the current nonsense thing to be annoyed about. If anything this video is explaining how to be better as a company to avoid mistakes that others have made.
Thank you for making me realize that "your experience" dictates reality.