Why does Buck still use 420HC steel? A bit of a rant. (See my pinned comment)
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Yeah, this was brought on by another person who thinks they know how to sell more Buck 110s than the sales team at Buck. Please check out the pinned comment.
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On a side note, I wished I had checked out Buck's custom shop before I began my rant. The guy who set me off said the S30V blade was a $20 upgrade in the Custom Shop and I took his word for it. That was actually quite misleading. The blade was actually an additional $25. on top of of the $30 flat increase for placing an order for a 110 in the custom shop. So in reality, the price of Vanilla Buck 110 in S30V would be $120. However, Buck does sell the Buck110/S30V on their website. The current price for a Buck110 on the Buck web site is $99 So the actual price difference is not $20 but $34. That is a 52% increase in the price of the knife. Imagine similar increases on knives such as Bantam and other lower cost knives. Your $34 Buck 110 Slim Select just became a a $52 knife. Your $24 Buck Bantam 284 is suddenly a $37. And all you need is a knife to cut open your Amazon packages.
It was only 6-7 years ago when you could get the wal*mart version of the classic 110 (brass-wood handle, nylon pouch) for under $30 any day of the week.
The S30VN or 35 doesn't have the beautiful upward sweep. I hate how the design is so inept!
Prices don't make sense anymore. A hundred dollars for any Buck seems ridiculous! If you wanna buy one for you and a friend or family member... Just get a 69¢ snap-a-blade box cutter from Harbor Freight.
Did you look at the “custom” buck 124?
@@Squibknocket it makes me sick! $250!
I was use to paying 35 40 $ for 110/112. 65 is high . 85 . Ppphhh forget about it.
420 works and works well i heavily use my 110/112/119s on a daily basis. And im not talking about on cardboard and p nand j.
I think knife manufacturers know they can charge more for higher end steels because people will buy it. Part of it is that it does cost more to make when you add more expensive materials. 420HC particularly when done by Buck is an excellent steel. I put my Buck 110 through some abuse carrying it for 20 years. It never let me down. To me, that was a super steel. Now we have more advanced steels but with that comes increased costs.
I think, in many cases, Knife makers over-charge for higher end steels because they know there is a group of buyers who need the latest, greatest material. Similar to the way "Micarta" is an upgrade when it is really isn't as good as some of the FRNs that came about to replace it. But Micarta ages well - as in absorbs oils and such and stains! When you think about this for any length of time. it made that micarta has more potential to degrade over time! (a different rant for a different time). I wished I had checked out Buck's custom shop before I began my rant The guy who set me off said the S30V blade was a $20 upgrade in the Custom Shop and I took his word for it. That was actually quite misleading. The blade was actually an additional $25. on top of of the $30 flat increase for placing an order for a 110 in the custom shop. So in reality, the price of Vanilla Buck 110 in S30V would be $120. However, Buck does sell the Buck110/S30V on their website. The current price for a Buck110 on the Buck web site is $99
Good rant👍I really like the 420HC from Buck, both as a working steel and as a hunting steel. It's never let me down. Cheers, buddy!
Great talk with a lot of great common sense points. Uproot the entire business to try and make a select few people, who probably still wouldn't buy the product, happy is just not the right move!! Thanks for sharing this!!
It's not worth it if the factory edge is not sharp no mattrer what steel it is. And i know i am going to get a lot of hate but the standard buck 110 edge sucks. You really have to know how to sharpen knives to own a buck 110.
Got 3 months on mine cutting cardboard , ratchet straps & cable ties working in walmart distribution receiving unloader only had to strop the blade once a month.. factory edge came screaming sharp on a black and brass 110
You know the only reason I even own a Buck 110 is because It was gifted to me because someone felt I needed to have one to complete my collection. I have several other Bucks that I use… especially my Buck Bait knife and fillet knife but I really don’t have much use for the 110. I have on many occasions discussed it’s place in the history of American knife industry and the general history of the knife in 20th Century but it really is not a knife I use or carry personally.
But there is no doubt in my mind that if it wasn’t for the 110 and it remaining a USA Buck knife their would no longer be a Buck Knife Company.
( or it would now be just another Jim Frost TM).
@@KnifeChatswithTobias definitely agree with you. If it weren't for the Buck 110, the company would probably have gone out of business.
Buck's 420hc is one of my favorites. Very tough and stainless. Buck would be wise to stay with it.
So is 420j2 for that matter. When knife brands shifted from 440A (or 425M in Buck's case) to 420HC in the 1990's they didn't lower their MSRP. It was about widening the profit margin and marketing 420j2 as bad but 420HC as good to counter the imported knife market.
I really enjoyed your "rant" and I agree with you wholeheartedly. Thanks for addressing this subject. Oh, and by the way, 420 HC with Bos Heat Treat is just fine for me!
I fell in live with the Buck 110 when I was 10 years old because I thought that Buck in that hip sheath was the coolest thing ever. I'm 51 years old now and my everyday, every situation edc is a Buck 112 which I consider to be an AMAZING do everything knife in a good size and shape for carrying. In a world of "modern" tactical knives I find it to be a great crossover between modern and traditional. The basic steel has always done what I've needed it to do and has always been easy to get RAZOR sharp again when need be...For the record I also love my Rough Ryders and Case knives but my Buck is my Ride or Die!..As always, great post Tobias. Love your channel!
The best thing about the 110 is that it lead to the development of the 112. 😃
I dont like 420Hc , only blade steel I've used that is worse IMO ( based on my experience ) is 5cr13 , 7cr17mov performs equally , 8cr13mov , Aus8 , 9cr18mov , 440c and above outperform it by a measurable margin .
Something that slipped my mind and was overlooked by me is the fact Buck has made part of its reputation as a American company and you cant really say its made in the U.S.A. using something other than American made steel ........ 420c meets that req , it is the cheapest American steel made to be used in blade making but it is American , this is something I had overlooked and is of noting.
I'm not sure it is cheaper but there are poorer quality American made steel than what Buck is using. And some times it even makes it onto knives.
Agreed on 420HC. There really isn't a wide contrast between 420HC and the 420j2 on a $10 folder. Both steels are tough and highly rust resistant. But both have poor wear resistance due to being a softer class of stainless steels. They sharpen as quickly as you can put rolling on the cutting edge in use. 420HC is just a cheap surgical grade steel that was designed to widen profit margins in the American knife industry and is promoted with a sleazy marketing campaign.
If it’s not broken why fix it? Or you could say the right tool for the job is the one that has always worked.✌️
With one exception, all my fixed-blade Buck Blade Knives have 420HC steel. My 30-year-plus Buck 112 is the same. All my current Buck locking folders have S30V or S35V steel; great steel, but harder to sharpen. I enjoy your videos, Tobias, and the time and effort you put into them. I don't have much use for armchair quarterbacks or people who speak merely to push air around. Save your breath and save my ears. The same can be said for the printed word.
For the simple fact that its plenty for most peoples needs. Its a good tool, not a specialty tool.
Or at least D2. Come on Buck.
I think you can get it in D2 through the custom shop.
I was lucky enough to break away from doing business with walmart a few years ago and it has been great, i know some people can't, and thats their circumstance or choice i understand, but it has been like a breath of fresh air, i wouldn't go back for a free knife of the week and i am good with buck 420 hc but the s30v is a bit better in my experience, but not the best bang for my Buck, pun intended
I think the standard the other day I saw in Wally world was $70 probably not getting a whole lot of new customers for that kind of money so they would probably lose even more for $20 more in starting price.
My first Buck 110 was for my 21st birthday. My parents probably paid $30 for it in 1993. No way could I afford that kind of money for a knife. It's still sitting in my knife drawer to this day. Sharp as ever.
I’ve been buying knives for over 50 years, but a little loop 20 years ago, I bought my first two buck knives, an alpha Hunter folder, and fix blade, which I think is called the Vanguard. To this day, I don’t know for absolute certainty what Steele they are made of. I assume that they are 420HC, but neither is marked. At that time, it never occurred to me that there were any more steals, then carbon or stainless. I also remember around the same time buying a little Japanese life marked 440 stainless, and just because it was marked on the blade, I assumed that must be good. Why else were they telling me? All of my Taylor’s Eye Witness knives are in 420HC and many of my European knives are the same. Even now, when I have a good knowledge of steals, I still buy knives in 400 series, steals, and AUS8, VG10 et cetera. That being said the knives that I actually use most are in M390, S30V, S3 5VN, and most of all K390.
But here’s the big question. Do you think Spyderco is able to make more money selling Dragonflies in VG10 or K390?
My feeling is it precisely because Spyderco makes a killing sell knives in 8Cr and VG10 that they take chance on limited runs of better steels.
It think this is the same reason Buck can sell custom knives and special factory offerings through retailers with higher end materials. Not to mention, when they do store exclusive, Buck and other knife makers transfer the risk associated to the special run to the retailer.
@@KnifeChatswithTobias Spyderco makes money by getting people to buy the same knife over and over again in every different steel they can come up with.
@@rockets4kids and all I can say to that is "Bravo to Spyderco! Whatever Works!" You could say the same thing about Case with its multiple versions of Trappers that they issue all the time! Benchmade does similar things with its popular patterns! Several companies (and not just knife companies) recognize there's a collectors market out there and they'd be foolish not to tap into it. GEC pretends to make knives for people to use but they are well aware 99.9% of their knives are never going to do any serious cutting. I don't see this as a company taking advantage of people. I see it as a company filling a need/want of their customers. This also goes to the fact that Buck answered the wish of customers who wanted a better a steel in their knife. Most of the customers are satisfied with the current steel and for those who want something better, Buck gave it to them. They've also given them automatic knives, drop points instead of clips, Nickel-silver instead of Brass, etc. For the most part when a company does something like offer multiple versions of a knife or product it's because they are responding to a perceived need or want of their customer base. These moves are done on a whim. And yes when they do it, they do with the expectation of increasing sales and sales profit. It's what companies do. They try to increase sales so they can remain profitable and keep putting food on the table of their table and the tables of their employees.
About (4) months ago, I came across a Buck 110 at a flea market that had been brutalized and had 1/3 of the blade broken off for $5. I wouldn't have bothered with it except that it had nickel silver bolsters. Made in 1986, some sort of commemorative etch was still slightly legible. The Buck Web site claimed a $10 reblading charge. I sent that 110 to Post Falls with a $10 money order. Postage cost me another $10. When I received the knife it had been rebladed in the standard 420 clip point and polished. For a total investment of $25, I now have a beautiful nickel silver 110 that I estimate has a basic value of $75. The process worked for me. In retrospect, maybe I should have spent the extra $ for an upgraded blade. Maybe not. Anyway I'm happy about it all.
I think you got this one right, Tobias
Flip side maxamet, cruwear, etc cut 8x as long as 420. If we’re insisting on a cheap blade, then get a fastback with disposable utility blades. Nothing wrong with any steel, 1095 is still king. Knice rant🤝
Who’s insisting on a cheap blade? Buck use a blade steel that works for most of their customers. And for those who want or need a different steel (either actually or perceived to be a better steel for their needs) they will provide either as a custom shop knife or occasional short runs for an added cost. That sound like a sound business plan.
Well said.
Also, S30V attracts more people to both the custom shop and the overall web site. Those are Buck fans who, once they're building their custom knife, will probably choose more add-ons. Then they'll look around the web site and see more models they want.
That was Paddy’s suggestion for Case that they make upscale knives for the guys who want them and keep making the SS and CS ones for their entry level customers and the people who just want to collect Case Knives
Basically if you want a snob knife expect to pay a snob price
It sounds to me like the person who complained to you just wants Buck to make all upscale knives so he doesn’t have to be ashamed to buy one
I say that bc I have praised Buck and Case on some of the biggest websites and I have consistently been called a sucker and worse
To be honest… I have many Buck 110’s and 112’s both 420 HC and S30v plus the slim select. The reconfigured blade shape is trying at best to bring up a hair shaving edge. Too thick behind the edge ( S30v is brittle)You can but … I just recently dusted off my model 560 with titanium finger groove handle, modded it with a quick stud and a pocket clip. It’s my current EDC. Not many steels get a more keen edge. A mirrored edge at that. Scary sharp. My thought is, when people say 420 HC sucks… I tend to think they have to work on their sharpening skills. No edge last forever. 420HC all the way for me! Don’t care for S30V. Takes far to long to sharpen… juice not worth the squeeze! Speaking from experience!
Many aspects go into a company's resources. A good example is Cold Steel switching to S35vn from CTSxhp was a matter of supply.
I like the red and yellow handle knives. Boat knives perhaps?
The red knife is the Buck clear Water Bait knife. It is by far, my most used Buck. The Yellow one is the My Crappie Slab Slinger Fillet knife (USA) I also the Slab Shaver (China) All are excellent knives.
@@KnifeChatswithTobias thanks 🤙
Also in manufacturing and retail, inventory not moving cost you money. Your cash is tied up in something sitting on a shelf. In a large enough company you also have to do an inventory count on a regular basis and counting inventory takes at least a day with production usually shut down during inventory counts. I hated doing inventory in manufacturing companies. It was counted, recounted, and then audits were done on the counts to make sure you are counting accurately.
That's why the Japanese technique call Kanban became so popular with US manufacturing because it relies upon having less inventory if your raw materials supplier can deliver to you quickly enough. When bin one goes empty, you reorder as you are pulling from bin 2. The pandemic & supply chain interruptions showed the vulnerability of the Kanban system.
Exactly. Product has to move. The faster it moves, the more profit.
We used the Kanban system at work for a couple years but it didn't work where I was at. Our toolroom had to still make stuff all the time.
I don't know if it works now because I have not worked there in a year
Where my dad worked almost twenty years ago it worked great especially for inventory.
To break down your point:
The 110 in S35VN is $120
Cool. Thats reasonable for most S35VN knives of a decent quality. You can occasionally get them for less than $100, but its somewhat rare.
And given Buck's decades of quality as a backing, this sounds like a reasonable price.
Sure, its higher than id like. But its not egregious.
Having said that, for most people, they dont need a powder metal steel.
Most people have trouble sharpening things as it is, so adding in any difficulty makes them even less likely to sharpen their knives.
Also, Buck does a much better job with 420HC than most other companies, and id rather have theirs than most 440C, AUS 8/10, 8CR/9CR out there.
Would i like to see Buck adding in more S35VN options and see the price come down? Sure. But like i said, its not egregious.
At least their prices havent gone up like Benchmade.
Knife Chats and Roadway Rants! Great rant Tobias. Changing an item that has proven to be an excellent seller and still is, is a very dangerous maneuver for a company. Probably the best example of a worst case outcome in recent times is Bud Light! But even normal changes (design, color, ergonomics, materials, costs, etc) can wreak havoc on a company's bottom line. Technology helps often but again that is a double edged sword. Legitimate companies that want to maintain their historic excellence must be able to balance and learn to use that double-edged sword to their advantage and often that means simply stay with the best method of keeping the product sound, back up your claim, and give your customers what they want and expect and always offer choices.
Well said! Also enjoyed the slideshow!
There's also a thing called "loss leaders". Retailers will sell items at a loss to get customers in the store, in the hopes they will buy other items while they're there to cover the loss. But yes, manufacturers and retailers have to balance inventory, sales, expenses, etc. with profit margins.
Good point! This really comes to fruition in Black Friday Sales. The people who just buy the really marked down items are called “bargain hunters” by their friends but “dead beats” or other disparaging words by the retailer.
When something stays too long in inventory and is sold off, it's not only the space that the store wants to free up, it's the money. inventory is money tied up and not making the store a profit. It only makes profit is it turns over. The common technique is to bring something in and sell it at full price for a time, and having made good money on this, when the time comes, the rest of the inventory is sold off at cost (ish) to free up the money to buy more inventory to turn again.
A much better explanation. I was trying to get to that point but traffic really sucked. 😂
@@KnifeChatswithTobias Thanks.
420HC good steel
Well said.
Once again, you've hit the nail square on the head, Tobias!
I also think Buck gets away with 420HC because they have a great heat treat...never meet anything that could be cut with a knife that my Buck couldn't cut!
420 HC just plain works. I often wonder just how much cutting people are doing with that super steel knife to justify the cost. Nowadays if you plan on attending public gatherings in a metropolitan area, or you are going into municipal buildings, you can't carry a knife into the building. And you better forget carrying a firearm. Nice rant Tobias 👍🏻💯⚓🇺🇲🇺🇲
The idea of making a knife last longer sells fewer knives. A Buck 110 lasts most people a long time. The lowest price sells more knives and people buy them and will buy another if they like the first one. Sale prices bring more shoppers into the store and most don’t buy one thing and leave without buying more stuff. Sales make money or there would be none 👍
its 125 $ now.
I have two Buck 110’s with 420HC and have zero complaints about them. I believe Buck should leave things as they are.
Except prices!
@@JustineWiniker They are getting a little pricey for what you get. Still a great knife though.
Interesting. What model is buck with corkscrew?? Never saw one very cool.
Buck 761 "Twin Peaks" Here's the episode on it. ruclips.net/video/Et9M8eTuyKc/видео.htmlsi=vZhR7hZpRSRhdZ9y
BUCK 420HC since high school great all around steel and price stay safe if you are on the Dan Ryan
Muy lindas, saludos desde Santiago de Chile 🇨🇱
Dang....you could teach a college course on retail.I had no idea.Great vid.
He's leaving out dealer price and the 45-50% mark up from the retailer.
Your not wrong. 😊
420 HC is good working man steel and buck heat treatment is very good. It's a working mans steel. I've done a custom in 420 HC and if you heat it well it will hold an awesome edge retention.
I'll take a knife in 420HC with a good heat treat over what so many companies are doing with their "supersteels."
Ok thank you much
agreed
Excelente points Tobias and so true. Great video thanks for sharing. I received a custom Buck Spitfire from my wife one year as a gift and it has the upgraded steel and some other bells and whistles. Would I have spent that kind of money normally for a work knife?…nope, I would just buy a vanilla 110 or Bantam or whatever to abuse like most people I think.
Hello Sir, I’m new to your channel, and actually new to knife buying in general. Living in England makes it tougher, but I have a growing collection of American knives, and I do have a standard Buck 110. I like it more than other knives 4 times the price. I’m still learning exactly what the different types of steel mean - but I really enjoyed this product marketing etc commentary. The standard 110 is clearly not aimed at a high-end market, so it doesn’t make sense to put in higher-end steels for the standard model, when the 420HC has clearly been good enough for its intended market.
420HC sharpens easier in the field as stated by many. Also 420HC has better corrosion resistance than many other premium steels. Then there is the cost thing as mentioned. I would submit Bucks 420HC is a better buy than a lot of higher priced stuff.
420 HC. When that good and work DONT CHANGE IT.Merci.🤓
Great points. I love my Buck 110's in 420HC, I have never had a problem with it. Thanks for sharing, Live Long Prosper and Collect Your Own Way!
Why they use 420hc is cuz is easy to sharpen and 3v tough. S30v is chippy and brittle. Like m4 is sharp for a long time but if you use it like a pry bar it snaps easy.
And there you have it. For some folks that translates to a "Super Steel"
I think 420 HC is a good steel for most people and how they use their knives. You don't need s35 unless you have a super steel task to do. Most knife tasks don't require a super steel. I own a few 110s. A regular buck 110, a drop point buck 110, and a buck LT. I like the option to have a legitimate buck 110 with a high-end steel. I may get one when I can. Because I love Buck knives. I have a few fixed blades and the Buck 500. As a principal I don't buy imports from buckknives. I use my knives and Never had an issue.
Sadly, my favorite Buck for EDC is probably the Buck Bantam. It is in made in the USA. I have other Bucks and I too prefer to grab the ones made in the USA but I have found there off shore knives (China, Taiwan) to also be well made and to Bucks Standards.
@KnifeChatswithTobias I know chinese buck knives Are still quality knives. I had a little Buck 371 made from china. I eventually gave it away to a buddy. I just like using my american made Bucks. I think how the company does it now,Where there is still the option for the every man And the option for the super steel high end collector guy, Is kinda getting the best of both worlds. If they changed to a high end only Knife market, They would make less money. And The regular guy Would not have an option to own a Buck knife. Which in my opinion is counter intuitive to the company's principles. And I think that's why like buck knives so much. Because There always seems to be an American made option for regular people. If your buck knife is american made it has that forever warranty. Where as, the imports don't. And I think there's a lot to say for a company that's willing to put out a thirty dollar american made knife That also has The same Forever warranty as a 300 dollar knife. Any who Mr.Tobias, i Always enjoy your channel because i always learn something new about traditional knives.
@KnifeChatswithTobias there's nothing sadly about liking the Buck Bamtam. It's a good knife. You like what you like. I know you're a big toothpick guy When it comes to your slip joints. I am definitely a stockman guy When it comes to my slipjoints.
I have no idea why RUclips recommended this to me but I’m glad it did. I find it hilarious you got so mad over my comment that you had to waste time make a whole video about it. I never cared to begin with. I was spewing out complete bullshit. I was on my lunch break and had nothing better to do. A simple check of their website would have made that obvious. A SV30 110 is $60, minimum, more expensive. Not $30. It’s $130 not even including shipping.
And for anyone who’s confused, I’m the guy that was arguing with him.
I wasn't at all mad. It's funny that now you claim it was just a bunch if BS. So i guess that make you a You Tube Troll. I thought at first you might Have been a loyal Buck fan with some legitimate gripes. Thanks for the clarification. I'll just ignore any future comments you make. I'd pin your comment here but I feel the already pinned comment is more helpful than your admission.
Bucks 420hc is equivalent to most 440c. I use my 110 to dress a half dozen deer every year. It’s good steel. Just doesn’t impress knife nerds.
No it doesn't. Check out the video "Buck's 420HC vs. Gordon's 119 clone edge retention test". He puts the same edge on the Gordon clone (which uses 7Cr17MoV). The Buck 119 starts developing edge rolling significantly faster. 420HC behaves no differently than 420j2.
Perfect Buck for me: Aluminum Buck 110 with a carbon steel blade. Still at the fair price of the standard 110.
Working steel vs scifi steel. Wierd how knife people can get really agry discussing this. Hillbillies like me schould give the super steel a try and steel connoisseurs should try working at the site 8-5 with those 300usd knives.
For me (blue collar hillbillie) I can't afford a 300usd knife, that might brake the tip of trying to pry at something. And I need a knife that actually cuts. But can be easily sharpened. Yes, even magnacut will dull after cutting carpet or hitting a nail. I like my expensive super steel knives. But I don't use them very much. I prefer 420hc up till vg10. Or carbon steels like 1095 or C75 - the patina adds a charm to the knife imo.
I think most $300 knives are just looked at and fondled greatly. I don't buy any expensive knives for that reason. I can put a Rough Rider in my pocket and not worry about it. If a friend thinks it cool looking I can just give it to him and order another for real cheap.
Hasnt happened yet though
Hi Tobias:
I’m late to this party, but I couldn’t agree more with everything you said. Besides, 420 with a Boss treatment is a great blade. Why mess with success?
Thanks, Tobias. I'm not convinced that a heavy duty knife you can skin a moose with is in need of an upgrade, if it comes with a lifetime warranty and you can pick one up for $30.