Considering its price and availability, 14c28n seems to be the best option in its class in regard to all-around balance for a work-horse knife steel. Very good toughness, great corrosion resistance, and good edge retention in relation to its sharpenability. Judging by the graphs, It seems to be a better option than even its composition cousins of AEB-L and Nitro-V and similar hardness. I, for one, would love to see further testing of 14c28n, to confirm if its past testing was a fluke, or if it really is what we can expect of this stuff. Not to mention what to expect and increasing levels of hardness. Great work, Larrin!
If the 14C28N edge retention was identical to AEB-L it wouldn’t change things much. I already declared 14C28N as my favorite “budget steel” a few years ago but the slightly higher edge retention wasn’t really a factor. Mostly that it maintains similar properties to AEB-L while having improved corrosion resistance. knifesteelnerds.com/2020/06/15/what-is-the-best-budget-knife-steel/
@@KnifeSteelNerds specifically for a kitchen chefs knife, what steel would you recommend. From watching and reading a lot of your material, my conclusion is that AEBL / 14c28n is pretty much the best, if you don't want to invest in diamond / cbn abrasives. Easy to sharpen, high toughness allows for shallow angles, and pretty corrosion resistant. Would love to hear if there is something I missed or if there are better options for kitchen knives specifically. Thank you :)
I use 14c28n on my custom hard use knives....my knives are made for use in a coastal environment in a tropical climate......it is a great steel for this type of use scenario. It finishes well and at 61 hrc is just a good choice!
@@wadejensen3301 what do you use in the kitchen? I want to get a really nice chefs knife, with a proper s grind and a thin edge. 14c28n seems like a great choice for that. But I'm eager to hear other input or suggestions. I've just gotten into needing out over steels and knives :)
Happy to see you finally test this often maligned steel! Thanks for your work. In my experience, 8Cr may not hold the best edge, but remains serviceable and touches up easily. It's also fairly tough. This is exactly why so many rave about 14C28N nowadays. I would love to see 9Cr18 done next!
The one thing I know for sure, is that most people just talk about knifes, criticise and voice opinions. I make knifes, collect knifes and love knifes, I use my knifes and have 2 Honey Badgers in my collection. The wharncleaver is my EDC, 8CR13MOV. Never have came across a task that I could not do with it. Keeping in mind that I chop wood with a axe and not a knife. Thanks for your video
@@svn5994question here would be is it the steel or as he said the quality of the Heat Treating process they picked or actually performed on the steel Rockwell hardness is a factor on the methodology picked used and controlled in the total process of making the steel as he mentioned throughout the video
I spent my working career with Byrd knives. Used them everday, sometimes very hard. Also sharpened them quite often. For the price point I found the steel to be more than adequate.
I carry a hawksbill Byrd folder (can’t remember the model name) it’s BY FAR the best knife I’ve had for the money and is better than a bunch of way more expensive knives I’ve owned. Cost me about $30 Canadian including shipping back during covid, the fit and finish is great, zero blade movement when it’s open. Holds a great edge and came shaving sharp. I’ve been carrying and using it since I bought it and the only issue I’ve had is one of the pocket clip screws came out, so I replaced it and used loktite to make sure they stay put. The blade has a little corrosion in spots but that’s my fault entirely. I’m a chemist and use it regularly around really corrosive stuff. I think the larger tarnished spot came from a very strong bleach solution and there are some tiny spots from hydrochloric acid. Sorry I went on for so long but anytime anyone asks me what knife they should buy I tell them to get a Byrd. Thank you for your work with such a great company!
In 2022 here in Europe the Nedfoss Seal knife was a surprise throughout the bushcraft scene. Got very good test results during real life tests. It's made of 8Cr14MoV and now things are clear. Thank you for this test.
Thanks again, Larrin, great detailed report. I'm retired and on a fixed income, so Patreon is beyond my means. I did, however, buy your knife steel book, and I do closely follow your reports and make comments.
Have a veggie cleaver with Chinese 8cr14MoV as it's core.... And an aus8 pocket knife and old Japanese monosteel Santoku. Having all 3 for many years; having maintained them countless times betrays why that broad grade is a very popular stainless for home slicers looking for cheap quality. Way better than the trash pot steel we usually see for its price.
So many knife reviewers and commenters call 8CR garbage and that hasn't been my experience. I'm glad we get the truth here. It's a decent budget steel. I only have two knives in that steel, both Spydercos (one serrated), and they've been fine.
@@neutronshiva2498 True of 440c as well, and D2/CTS-XHP in my experience (XHP is basically stainless D2) I've had some absolutely dogshit knives in 'good' or 'great' steels like D2, XHP, S30V, S35VN and even one in 20CV, but I've also had some really good knives in 'bad' or 'mediocre' steels like 440C, AUS-8, 8cr, etc Heat treat, and especially tempering and factory sharpening (not burning the edge or ruining the heat treat in any other way) I think are more important than the steel in most scenarios, since there's plenty of instances of custom knife makers making insanely high performing knives with stuff like 80crv2, which on paper shouldn't even come close to many modern 'super-steel' alternatives
I've even seen some customs in 52100 and other non knife steels that genuinely perform better than most factory high end comparable steels like CPM-M4 and what not Super steels and such are marketing gimmicks imo, wouldn't say scams, as the steel is without a doubt 'better', but that doesn't mean it makes a better blade per se
It's funny that I was suggested this just when i was thinking of buying a knife that's made with 8Cr14MOV. Thanks for the timely info. I reasoned that it was a proper cutlery steel, after all. Now even more happy with my decision.
After watching this, I pulled out my 11 year old Kershaw cryo, took it completely apart it, cleaned, lubed and put it back together with the intent to carry. And then I flicked it, and it's weak action on brass washers reminded me why I don't edc it anymore. Thanks for the Video!
Great video. Ive been a "knife guy" my whole life. Ive always been skeptical of 8Cr13 in favor of AUS-8 for any production knife under $60. My primary experience with 8Cr is in the (semi)newer Kershaw knives, and I have never owned one that the blade tip didn't break off under normal use. Ive been super curious about its makeup for years, its cool to finally see how it performs. Seems like Kershaw just does a less-than-ideal heat treat on it. ill stick with my Spyderco Para or Onatrio Rat folder(if you can find them now)
Thank you Larrin for this excellent video. This is exactly why I selected AUS8 for my stainless version of the Wolverine. It’s a pretty well balanced steel and in a larger blade it helps to keep the price reasonable 👍 I’m joining your patreon
I'm stoked on your designs and I'm stoked about your decision to go with Aus8- but tbh I'm even more stoked to see you here. It's awesome to see makers and designers looking to balance use and experience with actual data and info as opposed to the ravings of the knife consumer masses.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors It’s awesome for the knife community to have someone like Larrin Thomas who brings science and data to the table To many people base their opinions on trends and hype
When Survival Lilly released her non-Chinese made bushcrafting Bowie in AUS8 for only $100.00 her fan base had a complete cry baby tantrum and meltdown. This made me sad for her as it’s a large enough slab of steel to take the batoning abuse and I have blades in AUS8 that are like 20 years old and they always sharpen right back up to pocket razors, just gotta oil wipe them clean once in awhile and it’s a fine work horse. I don’t understand the hate for AUS8 on budget priced knives.
For 2 years edc has been a kershaw analyst 8cr13mov part serrated, it’s the best one I’ve had from them and for 30-40 bucks you’re not afraid to use it. Haven’t had any need to sharpen any of it, used every day. The shape of the blade has a lot to do with edge retention I believe and the way you use your blade, everybody holds it and cuts different. Happy I found one that works for me.
Very informative! I'd absolutely love to see you do this with every steel out there but i know it is very very time consuming and expensive! I love your work, keep it up!
Excellent video! Very surprised and pleased with your findings! A new and different perspective, opens options not known before (in my case!!!)! Thank you and I also subscribed!!!
Great video. Some of the other Chinese steels are much better in the knives where they are used. For instance, WE gets 9Cr18Mov closer to 60HRC in their Civivi, Sencut, and Ferrum Forge knives where it performs very well as a "budget steel". I'd love to see you test 9Cr18Mov. (BTW, hardness tests I've seen on production knives in 8Cr13Mov tend to be in the 56-59 range.)
The relatively low toughness of 9Cr18MoV doesn’t excite me that much. I’m sure it would do better in a slicing edge retention test than 8Cr13MoV though.
While aarpm9 is not a powdered metallurgy steel like its claimed to be, its said to have a higher toughness and based on 9cr18mov. But it performs worse in cutting tests than 9cr18mov in tests done on production knives from civivi and CJRB.
@@tacticalcenter8658 That's interesting, I hadn't heard that it wasn't a powdered steel. Do you know where I could read or find out more about that by chance?
Very cool video! I am wondering how AR-RPM9 compares to the group of steels listed in this video. I have several knives with that and it seems like it is pretty decent for budget knives.
I would like to see that test as well. I test knives on my channel in the crudest and cruelest way possible and have “successfully” broken 2 CJRB knives in RPM9. The same test broke the S35VN blade on a Bear Ops knife and an old Benchmade in ingot D2 and Hogue Deka in MagnaCut. The geometry of each blade was different but all 4 were tanto or reverse tanto shapes. I mentally place the RPM9 toughness between that of D2 and AUS10. Curious to find out how much off I am.
Heat treat is everything. I have several knives with 440A steel that I can't sharpen at all. But I have some Cold Steel knives that are viciously sharp, and I can't tell much of a difference between it and AUS8A. And when they begin showing signs of wear, sharpening them is a breeze. As knives soar past $100, few people want to buy knives with supersteel. I have a bunch of knives with CTS-XHP steel, but I just don't like them as much as my AUS8A knives. The XHP is a great steel, but I carry knives mostly for self defense and home chores. Thus, whether it's AUS8A or 440A it makes no difference as long as it takes an edge and holds it reasonably well. You don't seem to give XHP much of a score for edge retention, but I trust your judgment.
I actually have a cheap china made knife that says its 'D2' on the blade and for $19 I didnt think so, but....when I tried to sharpen it, D2 content found!!! That particular knife is one of the hardest/most work to get an edge back on but it lasts very well and I really like the knife. I originally bought it because it was an 'homage' to a well known brand name knife that I wanted to buy but I had no experience with that blade shape/length - it was a bit longer than my usual EDC blades and I didnt want to spend $250 to buy a knife that I wouldnt like or use, so I bought the 'cheap chinese copy' to see if it was suitable for me or not. Turns out it is one of my fave non-auto knives I have....lol @@CuttingBoardRx
I'm not a knife steel nerd, but I recently bought a Cold Steel Mini Tac Bowie that's supposed to be made of 8Cr13MoV. It's really sharp out of the box but I'm wondering how the edge retention is and how I should care for and sharpen it if there's any special care I should take for this particular blade. It's mostly going to open boxes and packages, though I plan to train with it for self defence and I'd like it to be as sharp as possible for both uses.
I love my Cold Steel Mini Tac Bowie! It's so dang slicey and it sharpens up pretty easily from my experience. I carried it on my hip for about two months but am currently trying out other knives on the job, mostly for cardboard boxes, vinyl plastic straps, things like that. Sometimes praying nails out of soft wood lol. Did you ever start using yours? If so, how is it holding up? 👍🔪⚔️🗡️
I collected Kershaw for almost 20 years before everything went 'china gas station knife of the week' and ZT and I have a good few 'vintage' Kershaw knives that are as good today as they were 25 or 30 years ago.
I'd be fascinated what Sean could come up with in terms of a special protocol heat treat for it to see the best possible performance he could get out of it to see what we can absolutely get out of the least amount of money haha
Of course, Cru wear and cpm3v are my choice always but surprisingly the 8cr14mov turned out to be a good steel. It can get screaming sharp in no time. If you've got stuck in the woods, you will have no problem with 8cr to bring it back to shaving sharp level just by using a river stone or even cup. It doesn't hold the edge as well as high-end steel but for surviving purpose it would be a great choice no doubt about it.
Interesting analysis. 20 years ago I got into the ground floor of collecting early folders, chiefly CRKT who produced budget blades, chiefly using 8CR13MoV. I avoided this vendor ever since I evolved as a collector and will not go back but I appreciate the improvements over time.
Nice stuff. I was a bit amazed by how low the toughness was on 1.4116/50CrMoV15. I know it ain't great steel but I thought it would at least be tough thanks to little carbon. Guess not. Another question, do you think you'll ever design an ingot knife steel? I know they're not nearly as performing but if you took the AEB-L idea and maybe tossed in cobalt for an even harder matrix steel.. perhaps that's already been done. Another question.. why is titanium carbide much less used if it gives similar hardness to niobium and also very near vanadium carbides? Edit: looks like you did make a niobium carbide AEB-L, too bad it's not in broader production. Also heard a new CPM steel is in testing, and I really hope you got your fingers in that pie.
In your toughness chart the N690 has been placed almost in the bottom but in the Joe X knife tests N690 and Aus8 came up of the top of all of the stainless steel,which is a good news from me, since they're all a budget friendly.
I have a benchmade vex (Chinese made value series knife) with a 8cr13moV blade. I love the knife, I hate the blade. Doesn’t hold an edge very well at any reasonable angle. So I’m wondering if the heat treat is just poor.
10:57 Just helping a brother out, when you plot data like that its better if you don't use a smoothed connecting line between the points. It generates features that (probably) don't exist. For example, on the No Cryo plot on the left, just below 2000F Austenitizing there is a local maxima, which implies something interesting is happening there. Its simply an artifact of the plotting software, though. With your level of measurement capacity it may be worth it to get into a different plotting software like Igor or (my personal favorite) kaleidagraph. It'll help your plots match your skills and efforts over what Excel can do.
Serious quick question, what does a edge need to accidentally bump into large staples(something you see in heavy duty cardboard box) and came out the best? is it "toughness"? as I can slightly squish it with softer material and it bounced back? I run into those accidents sometime. (and asphalts too, rarely, but still it gets into contact with my knife too)
My unprofessional opinion as a mech eng student and amateur bladed implement enthusiast, that would be hardness. The harder your edge the better it'll survive the relatively soft staple. But it depends on the edge geometry as well, if it's too thin, then the form factor takes precedence. Toughness is more so to deal with its ability to take impacts like batoning or chopping trees.
Hey Lerrin, is 80crV2 in comparison to 1095 a better edge holding steel (I know geometry…). And is 420c actually as tough as 1080 carbon steel? I was a bit confused by the charts on your Website. Thank you so much for inventing magnacut it’s a great steal but I had especially with the corrosion resistance very different experiences with a few companies. Thanks for answering 🤗
80CrV2 and 1095 are similar for wear resistance and edge holding because they are pretty simple steels without much carbide. The CATRA test can't easily distinguish them. 420HC has very high toughness, yes. It is sometimes denigrated as a "budget" steel but that doesn't mean the toughness is low.
Thank you for the answer! Most of the big high impact tools are made of simple carbon steel. Is 420HC just more challenging to heat treat but with the same hrc just as stable as for example 1075?
I have 2 unrelated questions. Firstly, Is there any update you can share on niomax? I've been incredibly excited for the steel since you first talked about its properties in the small test melts. Secondly, what are the properties of tantalum as a carbide former in relation to blade steels? I'd assume they'd be pretty similar to niobium but at a greater cost.
Inducing vibrations in a liquid has been shown to dramatically increase the ability of that liquid to transfer heat. Do you think this concept would be beneficial at all to the quenching process? I saw you mention in another video that the increase in hardness from quenching steel is not due to internal stresses acting against the outer casing like a prince rupert drop. Since thats not the case i'm curious if there would be any benefit to an increase in the rate of cooling.
Go to google scholar and search "Steel superstrengthening phenomenon" by Ni Kobasco. That paper mentions the effect that vibratory quenching has on martensite.
Very excellent video very good learnings for sharing a lot of good learnings! The common person only knows the user end of these materials if you use long enough there is no Holy Grail in metals play all depends on what you're doing with it. If your application is wrong so is the steel!😊
Hi Larren, I have a question, would you see any improvement in toughness in a nickel steel like L6 or z-tuff if you added between 1 to 2% silicon in it like you see in the silicon shock resistant grades like S5 and 9260 spring steel, or is there some sort of negative reaction between nickel and silicon that would prevent there being any improvements from adding silicon in the alloy? Just wondered because in all of these attempts to make shock resistant nickel steels you never see silicon added. Thanks
The most common example is 300M, which is a modified 4340 with 1.6% Si. 4340 and 300M both have close to 2% nickel. The silicon primarily allows for higher tempering temperatures, or resistance to softening at higher temperatures. At lower tempering temperatures or high hardness the silicon isn't always beneficial. For example in my article on silicon steels there is a study I cited with 0.6% carbon and three silicon levels (it also had 1.8% Nickel!). The toughness at max hardness was better with lower silicon. It was more in the intermediate hardness range (~55 Rc) where the higher silicon led to better toughness-hardness balance. knifesteelnerds.com/2018/10/22/silicon-additions-for-improving-steel-toughness/
@@KnifeSteelNerds So I read through your article and it makes a lot of sense, but I'm just confused about one thing. How is S5 tougher than S7 at 58hrc? S5 is one these high Si steels, and it actually has slightly more carbon than S7, but for some reason it's not only tougher below 56hrc, it's tougher at 58hrc as well.
All that being said, what do you recommend as a good SS for home amateur knife makers, you have a very informative channel but as a beginner I foundered in all the technical aspects 👍🏻🇮🇪
They're all good steels compared to barebones carbon steel, which ain't half bad either when made into a good knife. The heat treat and grind are most important, the steel comes after that.
I had a CRKT M21-14G with that steel. It definitely took a whooping before it finally broke when I was being a lazy ass and didn't want to go get my pry tool to pry a part off my car. I'm not huge on chinese made stuff but the CRKT was a gift and was one of the best chinese blades I've ever used steel wise and being designed by an American company means that it could at least be trusted to be made of the claimed steel
Hello Doctor. I have a question concerning steel, more specific: Sandvik 12C27. I am an engineer and innovator, having patented a "device", and using 12C27, as a "knife". This is creating a problem today. Sandvik/Aleima, seem to have problems with deliveries. So, are You able to give me some advice concerning the "cutting edge" problems? And, if necessary, I will pay the cost for Your consultancy. Send an answer, either way. from a Finn in Diaspora
Thanks for this! It looks like the defects from rolled carbides shouldn't be very detrimental as far as breaking the blade. Does that sound accurate? I cant believe how close this cheap steel is to so many high end ones.
Yes for breaking the whole blade the carbide bands wouldn’t be an issue. Unless the manufacturer is cutting blades out in the “wrong” direction which definitely isn’t unheard of. The bands can lead to easier fracture with side loading the edge, however.
@@KnifeSteelNerdsthanks Larin! I hope more knife makers keep in mind that there are men in uniform that “side load” their blades in the most uncivilized manner while in the field. Speaking from experience of working with the Marines for the last 26 years.
The carbide structure of AEB-L and 14C28N is already very fine because they are designed where the carbides dissolve during forging and then “re-precipitate” later, called secondary carbides. Powder metallurgy works to refine the “primary carbides” that form during solidification and don’t dissolve during processing.
@KnifeSteelNerds so.... no lol Thanks for the Reply. I never thought I would love to ne4d out on this particular subject but u have made the learning interesting so I follow along Thanks!
As I am still a noob where does something like the steel on victornox knives sit in comparison to this? I have started watching your videos but I don’t know if you compare to super steels or everyday steels or what. Thanks
@KnifeSteelNerds I've heard that. Yet internet searches for larger knives and small machetes in either steel seem to come up empty. Even 14c28 production seems to offer only the helle nord. I've been casually trying to find something like an esee 6 replacement and 10" ish duku chandong parang that will live on a boat in Salt water. I really don't want 8cr, aus8, or 420hc. Lc200n, with a corresponding edge and geometry wood be ideal, but AEB-L seemed like it would be easier to find, though it will need more corrosion management. Maybe I found a gap in the market- better steel for mariners who camp 🤣 The spyderco Caribbean and Magnacut Native 5 are fine for folders, ofc.
I see a lot of customs in AEB-L. LC200N was already less common and MagnaCut seems to have stolen some of its thunder. For instance, I have a custom in LC200N that I love. The maker has since stopped using it in favor of MagnaCut.
love your work. what do you think of artisans gimmicky pm steel, also made in China, with .7 carbon, 18% chromium, etc. is there any actual reason they needed to use pm or did they do it just so they could market basically 440A or 19C27 or whatever as zomg pm steel! which generally when consumers hear pm steel that implies vanadium... otherwise, as far as I understand, what's even the point? with some exceptions ofc like zdp189 with it's crazy 3% carbon 20% chromium, a steel that physically would not be possible without pm. as far as I understand. thanks.
@@TimJohnson-x1o There is a small tool steel manufacturer in east of China and the Chinese version VG10 is also coming from this factory. You can tailor make the steel composition you want at this mill, but they do not make any powdered stainless steel, because they don’t have the equipment. It‘s electric arc steel. This is also where aarpm9 is made.
Larrin, quick question for you. I read somewhere that a Chinese Steel firm in Hong Kong recently announced a discovery of a Steel that is corrosion resistant enough to be used in the place of titanium for Hydrogen production out of seawater. Have you heard of this? What are your thoughts? And what do you think the chances are they've merely made a copy of Magna-Cut or LC200N? Alternate Energy sources/production methods are a hot topic today so this particular subject might warrant a bit of thought. I'm curious.
There are many stainless steels with better corrosion resistance than MagnaCut or LC200N, but they don’t have the hardness and wear resistance that we need in knives. But if you have a link to an article about the steel you are referencing I would be happy to look at it.
@KnifeSteelNerds OK it was professor Mingxin Huang at the University of Hong Kong(I was incorrect there, somehow remembering it as a firm? Ouch!) and the steel is called SS-H2. I'm on a cell so I can't make a link but I typed in a combination of words like Steel breakthrough Hong Kong Hydrogen Production into a browser and it came right up. There were multiple articles about the steel. I thought that it might be something you would find interesting academically, or perhaps even worth taking a stab at yourself. Best Wishes.
Like other high corrosion resistance steels that one doesn’t have any carbon in it. The new part is that they added 18% Mn while passivating it to get a “dual passivation” layer from both chromium and manganese. Even if you added carbon to it, the high Mn would mean it would be all retained austenite after quenching and wouldn’t harden to martensite. Interesting stuff though.
@KnifeSteelNerds That IS interesting stuff. Wow! Thanks for the feedback. I am curious 'tho as to why they refer to that alloy(s) as "Steel" when it(they) have a carbon content of zero. I would think the term "High Tech Iron Alloy" or equilivent would be more appropriate? Semantics, granted, but.....
Yes the definition of steel is not as straightforward as it initially may seem. Many stainless steels they try to keep the carbon as low as possible. Same with “ultra low carbon” steels.
Hey Larrin, do you have an opinion on the claims that a soft core and a harder outer layer makes for a tougher blade? My take is that it doesn't at all because the core doesn't make the outer hard layer less brittle. Any input?
@@KnifeSteelNerds Hm. but isn't the crack passing from hard to less hard to soft in a gradient and thus propagate through even the soft core? I appreciate you replied :)
To find out it’s an analogue is hilarious to me. I’m after names Dr! Could one technically name a steel anything? Imagine making a steel that’s so good that people can’t help but use it, but it’s called XxXBl33ding4ng3lXxX
Yeahh little Timmy 💪🇦🇺 Keep spreading the good word Larrin, the snobbery around some of these cheap stainless steels drives me nuts. I'll happily use steels all the way down to 105X for certain things but it drives me crazy seeing end users hyping up steels like 80CrV2 while simultaneously shitting on 8Cr, 420HC, 440 ect.. It's all in the naming conventions 🤣
i STRONGLY agree with you, but I just can't with steels like 105x.. not even for a straight razor... I just see no reason to use basic carbon steels in knives, they offer zero benefit over low alloy steels... I do enjoy my c135 in my french straight razors though. that's the only use I've seen where it makes any sense.
@@TimJohnson-x1o can't say I'd want it in a straight razor or even a knife but have found it to perform surprisingly well in cheap machetes like those from tramontina.
Why did you throw away those knives? I thought you were super into this stuff? Also, did you thank your viewer that offered to go through all that trouble for you?
Thank you larrin for another informative video So admittedly I haven’t read everything from your website so you may have addressed this I’m really curious about these Damascus steels with layers of copper, silver and even gold or titanium It just brings so many questions How well is it actually bonded will actions like flexing , impact even just exposure to oxidizers from cutting acid materials and washing will delamination be a problem
Interesting that 5cr15mov was not also mentioned as an analog to the German 1.4116 steel. Funny how people will poo poo the 5cr, but then be ok with the 4116 as it is so common in everyone's kitchen. They are both the same.
To be fair, 1.4116 looks abysmal in the toughness- hardness- edgeretention balance on knifesteelnerds. Might be poor processing of the steel samples from the manufacturers side, but still....
Your not telling me anything I didn't already know 🤣🤣🤣 but still nice to see hard evidence to present to the steel snobs. I've gotten into many arguments over knife steels through the years, and the common denominator for the snobs, is the newest and most expensive is the best steel. What idiots they truly are. All steels are in essence super steels. They are all stronger and harder than plain iron. However they all have different properties that make them ideal for certain uses. You can make a knife out of any steel, but it's durability and edge retention will depend on its intended use, and the hardening, tempering process used. Schrade uses 8Cr13MoV and 8Cr17Mov in their knives. I have no complaints about this stell.
Dude.. never put any knife but a butter knife in a dishwasher. Between getting jostled around banging the blade edge against stuff but your dish detergent is corrosive.
@@SilvaDreams I never did that in 52 years in my life of existence. Nevertheless, I would be interested, if the effects are only on the corrosion side, or also on the sharpness etc.
@@steffwo lol I could give you examples, my friend and roommate does it to her knives. Dull as can be, had to yell at her when she tried to do it to mine.
@@SilvaDreamsThere is one good thing about your situation. IIf it would ever happen, that you and her would have a knife fight in the kitchen, I would surely bet all my dollars to the one with the rasor sharp knives, hahaha.
@steffwo Yes but dull knives are worse because they rip and tear instead of making clean cuts. (though I'd win because I use to be a cook, did medieval weapon fights and have medical knowledge on my side so I know where to cut for arteries)
Can you also make a some content about sword steels? Would really like to now more about L6 and T10 and also 5160 and 6150. Would be really interesting to see your opinion on steels for Swords in general, unless you think that for some reason you aren't qualified enough to talk about swords rather than knives.
I think you'll see most Chinese 8cr13MoV will be on average, 57rc. The highest I've seen was spyderco's at 61rc but I've also seen Spyderco as low as 57rc. Other brands like crkt are 58rc or lower. From everyone rc testing it in the states as well as on those tested on billibilli and Rus testers. All the cut testers that have tested 8cr13mov production knives, its all been pretty low performing in comparison to everything else. Pretty sure at the price points these go for and the cost to make them in the $5 to $15 range, they don't care much.
Sub standard heat treat is the common problem of Yangjiang made knives. And gave a bad reputation to such a good steel. When heat treated probably like what Larrin did. They are pretty good steel.
What the response was from your 8CrMoV supplier (Michael Ho), when it was discovered that the steel type was incorrect? Does this call into question the credibility of the certifier/ certification process? How common are such mistakes? I'm guessing that wouldn't make large-scale clients of such products very happy. I've never had much faith in the specs claimed by low-end Chinese manufacturers.
Something I've never understood is how a knife steel can be "nationized". How can there be a Japanese/Chinese/European/etc steel? Do various federal governments own the copyrights to a given steel formula?
Considering its price and availability, 14c28n seems to be the best option in its class in regard to all-around balance for a work-horse knife steel. Very good toughness, great corrosion resistance, and good edge retention in relation to its sharpenability.
Judging by the graphs, It seems to be a better option than even its composition cousins of AEB-L and Nitro-V and similar hardness.
I, for one, would love to see further testing of 14c28n, to confirm if its past testing was a fluke, or if it really is what we can expect of this stuff. Not to mention what to expect and increasing levels of hardness.
Great work, Larrin!
If the 14C28N edge retention was identical to AEB-L it wouldn’t change things much. I already declared 14C28N as my favorite “budget steel” a few years ago but the slightly higher edge retention wasn’t really a factor. Mostly that it maintains similar properties to AEB-L while having improved corrosion resistance. knifesteelnerds.com/2020/06/15/what-is-the-best-budget-knife-steel/
I have an few pocket knives in it and I'm a fan.
@@KnifeSteelNerds specifically for a kitchen chefs knife, what steel would you recommend. From watching and reading a lot of your material, my conclusion is that AEBL / 14c28n is pretty much the best, if you don't want to invest in diamond / cbn abrasives. Easy to sharpen, high toughness allows for shallow angles, and pretty corrosion resistant. Would love to hear if there is something I missed or if there are better options for kitchen knives specifically. Thank you :)
I use 14c28n on my custom hard use knives....my knives are made for use in a coastal environment in a tropical climate......it is a great steel for this type of use scenario. It finishes well and at 61 hrc is just a good choice!
@@wadejensen3301 what do you use in the kitchen? I want to get a really nice chefs knife, with a proper s grind and a thin edge. 14c28n seems like a great choice for that. But I'm eager to hear other input or suggestions. I've just gotten into needing out over steels and knives :)
Happy to see you finally test this often maligned steel! Thanks for your work. In my experience, 8Cr may not hold the best edge, but remains serviceable and touches up easily. It's also fairly tough. This is exactly why so many rave about 14C28N nowadays. I would love to see 9Cr18 done next!
The one thing I know for sure, is that most people just talk about knifes, criticise and voice opinions. I make knifes, collect knifes and love knifes, I use my knifes and have 2 Honey Badgers in my collection. The wharncleaver is my EDC, 8CR13MOV. Never have came across a task that I could not do with it. Keeping in mind that I chop wood with a axe and not a knife. Thanks for your video
Your use of "knifes" when the plural is KNIVES is enough to tell us you're not a maker and probably don't even own a knife
FINALLY! So it not a "junk" steel after all. 😂
Ps Ive tested about a dozen 8cr13mov spydercos and every one was 60-61 hrc. For the record.
When its 56-57rc its not so great.
Big fan of your channel. Love your sense of humor. I hope you keep making videos.
It is still a junk steel when 99% of the 8Cr knives are 56-58
@@svn5994question here would be is it the steel or as he said the quality of the Heat Treating process they picked or actually performed on the steel Rockwell hardness is a factor on the methodology picked used and controlled in the total process of making the steel as he mentioned throughout the video
You're lucky then, I've had several and I never had one that was over 56, better than basic 420 and 440 though
My experience with 8cr13mov has been positive. Easy to sharpen and takes a decent edge. Even better if you need to practice sharpening.
Awesome unbiased review. You heard it here folks, toughness is just below Magnacut and tougher than S35VN. Better edge retention than LC200N.
That's not exactly a good thing. It's way softer so ideally it should me way more tough as a trade off. Not just below.
I spent my working career with Byrd knives. Used them everday, sometimes very hard. Also sharpened them quite often. For the price point I found the steel to be more than adequate.
I carry a hawksbill Byrd folder (can’t remember the model name) it’s BY FAR the best knife I’ve had for the money and is better than a bunch of way more expensive knives I’ve owned. Cost me about $30 Canadian including shipping back during covid, the fit and finish is great, zero blade movement when it’s open. Holds a great edge and came shaving sharp. I’ve been carrying and using it since I bought it and the only issue I’ve had is one of the pocket clip screws came out, so I replaced it and used loktite to make sure they stay put. The blade has a little corrosion in spots but that’s my fault entirely. I’m a chemist and use it regularly around really corrosive stuff. I think the larger tarnished spot came from a very strong bleach solution and there are some tiny spots from hydrochloric acid. Sorry I went on for so long but anytime anyone asks me what knife they should buy I tell them to get a Byrd. Thank you for your work with such a great company!
In 2022 here in Europe the Nedfoss Seal knife was a surprise throughout the bushcraft scene. Got very good test results during real life tests. It's made of 8Cr14MoV and now things are clear. Thank you for this test.
Thanks again, Larrin, great detailed report.
I'm retired and on a fixed income, so Patreon is beyond my means. I did, however, buy your knife steel book, and I do closely follow your reports and make comments.
Awesome video. I love seeing steel being demystified.
Loved your book! I still have a CRCT "Apache", and was pleasantly surprised to see the ATS-34/Apache advertisement.
Thank you!
Have a veggie cleaver with Chinese 8cr14MoV as it's core.... And an aus8 pocket knife and old Japanese monosteel Santoku. Having all 3 for many years; having maintained them countless times betrays why that broad grade is a very popular stainless for home slicers looking for cheap quality. Way better than the trash pot steel we usually see for its price.
So many knife reviewers and commenters call 8CR garbage and that hasn't been my experience. I'm glad we get the truth here. It's a decent budget steel. I only have two knives in that steel, both Spydercos (one serrated), and they've been fine.
Mostly depends on heat treatment. Could be crap, could be decent.
@@neutronshiva2498 Shouldn't buy knives from brands that don't do good heat treatments.
@@neutronshiva2498
True of 440c as well, and D2/CTS-XHP in my experience (XHP is basically stainless D2)
I've had some absolutely dogshit knives in 'good' or 'great' steels like D2, XHP, S30V, S35VN and even one in 20CV, but I've also had some really good knives in 'bad' or 'mediocre' steels like 440C, AUS-8, 8cr, etc
Heat treat, and especially tempering and factory sharpening (not burning the edge or ruining the heat treat in any other way) I think are more important than the steel in most scenarios, since there's plenty of instances of custom knife makers making insanely high performing knives with stuff like 80crv2, which on paper shouldn't even come close to many modern 'super-steel' alternatives
I've even seen some customs in 52100 and other non knife steels that genuinely perform better than most factory high end comparable steels like CPM-M4 and what not
Super steels and such are marketing gimmicks imo, wouldn't say scams, as the steel is without a doubt 'better', but that doesn't mean it makes a better blade per se
Love this! Thank you for taking the time to test and compare and share 🎉🎉
It's funny that I was suggested this just when i was thinking of buying a knife that's made with 8Cr14MOV. Thanks for the timely info. I reasoned that it was a proper cutlery steel, after all. Now even more happy with my decision.
After watching this, I pulled out my 11 year old Kershaw cryo, took it completely apart it, cleaned, lubed and put it back together with the intent to carry. And then I flicked it, and it's weak action on brass washers reminded me why I don't edc it anymore. Thanks for the Video!
Great video. Ive been a "knife guy" my whole life. Ive always been skeptical of 8Cr13 in favor of AUS-8 for any production knife under $60. My primary experience with 8Cr is in the (semi)newer Kershaw knives, and I have never owned one that the blade tip didn't break off under normal use. Ive been super curious about its makeup for years, its cool to finally see how it performs. Seems like Kershaw just does a less-than-ideal heat treat on it. ill stick with my Spyderco Para or Onatrio Rat folder(if you can find them now)
Thank you Larrin for this excellent video. This is exactly why I selected AUS8 for my stainless version of the Wolverine. It’s a pretty well balanced steel and in a larger blade it helps to keep the price reasonable 👍
I’m joining your patreon
I'm stoked on your designs and I'm stoked about your decision to go with Aus8- but tbh I'm even more stoked to see you here. It's awesome to see makers and designers looking to balance use and experience with actual data and info as opposed to the ravings of the knife consumer masses.
@@Thepreppersbunkeroutdoors It’s awesome for the knife community to have someone like Larrin Thomas who brings science and data to the table
To many people base their opinions on trends and hype
@@auroraborealisknives4019 🎯🎯🎯
When Survival Lilly released her non-Chinese made bushcrafting Bowie in AUS8 for only $100.00 her fan base had a complete cry baby tantrum and meltdown. This made me sad for her as it’s a large enough slab of steel to take the batoning abuse and I have blades in AUS8 that are like 20 years old and they always sharpen right back up to pocket razors, just gotta oil wipe them clean once in awhile and it’s a fine work horse. I don’t understand the hate for AUS8 on budget priced knives.
@wesb123 people think that more expensive and rarer is better- its a bummer when great steels get slept on.
For 2 years edc has been a kershaw analyst 8cr13mov part serrated, it’s the best one I’ve had from them and for 30-40 bucks you’re not afraid to use it. Haven’t had any need to sharpen any of it, used every day. The shape of the blade has a lot to do with edge retention I believe and the way you use your blade, everybody holds it and cuts different. Happy I found one that works for me.
Thanks for doing what you do, brother 🤙🏼
Very informative! I'd absolutely love to see you do this with every steel out there but i know it is very very time consuming and expensive! I love your work, keep it up!
Excellent video! Very surprised and pleased with your findings! A new and different perspective, opens options not known before (in my case!!!)! Thank you and I also subscribed!!!
As a consumer, it’s great to know this type of information. Thanks 🔪🎸
Great video. Some of the other Chinese steels are much better in the knives where they are used. For instance, WE gets 9Cr18Mov closer to 60HRC in their Civivi, Sencut, and Ferrum Forge knives where it performs very well as a "budget steel". I'd love to see you test 9Cr18Mov. (BTW, hardness tests I've seen on production knives in 8Cr13Mov tend to be in the 56-59 range.)
The relatively low toughness of 9Cr18MoV doesn’t excite me that much. I’m sure it would do better in a slicing edge retention test than 8Cr13MoV though.
Indeed 9cr18mov does well in wear testing when in the 60-62 range. I've seen civivi at 58rc on some. Nothing is perfect.
While aarpm9 is not a powdered metallurgy steel like its claimed to be, its said to have a higher toughness and based on 9cr18mov. But it performs worse in cutting tests than 9cr18mov in tests done on production knives from civivi and CJRB.
@@tacticalcenter8658 That's interesting, I hadn't heard that it wasn't a powdered steel. Do you know where I could read or find out more about that by chance?
I have heard accusations and roundabout reasoning but no one has come up with any real evidence for AR-RPM9 not being a PM steel.
LOL! Did not expect a Leroy Jenkins reference here. xD Great video! I learned a lot, and feel justified in my love of 8Cr13MoV.
Thank you Dr Thomas.
Great video, sir. I haven't finished your first book yet, but I didn't realize you'd produced another one! I'll have to pick it up!
Very cool video! I am wondering how AR-RPM9 compares to the group of steels listed in this video. I have several knives with that and it seems like it is pretty decent for budget knives.
I would like to see that test as well. I test knives on my channel in the crudest and cruelest way possible and have “successfully” broken 2 CJRB knives in RPM9. The same test broke the S35VN blade on a Bear Ops knife and an old Benchmade in ingot D2 and Hogue Deka in MagnaCut. The geometry of each blade was different but all 4 were tanto or reverse tanto shapes. I mentally place the RPM9 toughness between that of D2 and AUS10. Curious to find out how much off I am.
Great job, Dr. Thomas! I want a good edc folder with magnacut so bad, but man they are pricey!
Heat treat is everything. I have several knives with 440A steel that I can't sharpen at all. But I have some Cold Steel knives that are viciously sharp, and I can't tell much of a difference between it and AUS8A. And when they begin showing signs of wear, sharpening them is a breeze.
As knives soar past $100, few people want to buy knives with supersteel. I have a bunch of knives with CTS-XHP steel, but I just don't like them as much as my AUS8A knives. The XHP is a great steel, but I carry knives mostly for self defense and home chores. Thus, whether it's AUS8A or 440A it makes no difference as long as it takes an edge and holds it reasonably well. You don't seem to give XHP much of a score for edge retention, but I trust your judgment.
thanks for not adding music. it's like having 2 persons talking at the same time
Who makes a better educated guess than.you? All your research is so educational. Thank-you.
Getting 440c when you expected 8cr14mov ...😂😂😂
I wonder how many Chinese knives sold here as S35VN, AUS10 and 14Cr28 are actually 420/440. And who knows what they slide in under “D2” designation 😂
@@CuttingBoardRxIncase you don’t know, Sadvik Crucible etc steels are also *perchasable in China 😅
I actually have a cheap china made knife that says its 'D2' on the blade and for $19 I didnt think so, but....when I tried to sharpen it, D2 content found!!! That particular knife is one of the hardest/most work to get an edge back on but it lasts very well and I really like the knife. I originally bought it because it was an 'homage' to a well known brand name knife that I wanted to buy but I had no experience with that blade shape/length - it was a bit longer than my usual EDC blades and I didnt want to spend $250 to buy a knife that I wouldnt like or use, so I bought the 'cheap chinese copy' to see if it was suitable for me or not.
Turns out it is one of my fave non-auto knives I have....lol @@CuttingBoardRx
@@CuttingBoardRxmany have reported this
@@Laurariumthere is a huge amount of fraud in China. There is a high chance that the steel you think you are getting is not what you actually have
I'm not a knife steel nerd, but I recently bought a Cold Steel Mini Tac Bowie that's supposed to be made of 8Cr13MoV. It's really sharp out of the box but I'm wondering how the edge retention is and how I should care for and sharpen it if there's any special care I should take for this particular blade. It's mostly going to open boxes and packages, though I plan to train with it for self defence and I'd like it to be as sharp as possible for both uses.
I love my Cold Steel Mini Tac Bowie! It's so dang slicey and it sharpens up pretty easily from my experience. I carried it on my hip for about two months but am currently trying out other knives on the job, mostly for cardboard boxes, vinyl plastic straps, things like that. Sometimes praying nails out of soft wood lol. Did you ever start using yours? If so, how is it holding up? 👍🔪⚔️🗡️
I still have my Kershaw folding field, it was fun to see it in the old knife ad.
I collected Kershaw for almost 20 years before everything went 'china gas station knife of the week' and ZT and I have a good few 'vintage' Kershaw knives that are as good today as they were 25 or 30 years ago.
I'd be fascinated what Sean could come up with in terms of a special protocol heat treat for it to see the best possible performance he could get out of it to see what we can absolutely get out of the least amount of money haha
Thank you Larrin! appreciated as always.
You're a legend bud
Great video! Would love to see a review and testing of MP35N. I have a few pieces if you are interested.
Of course, Cru wear and cpm3v are my choice always but surprisingly the 8cr14mov turned out to be a good steel. It can get screaming sharp in no time. If you've got stuck in the woods, you will have no problem with 8cr to bring it back to shaving sharp level just by using a river stone or even cup. It doesn't hold the edge as well as high-end steel but for surviving purpose it would be a great choice no doubt about it.
If loving steel is wrong, I don't want to be right... (great vid as always!)
Interesting analysis. 20 years ago I got into the ground floor of collecting early folders, chiefly CRKT who produced budget blades, chiefly using 8CR13MoV. I avoided this vendor ever since I evolved as a collector and will not go back but I appreciate the improvements over time.
Crkt will always use 56-57rc range and cost approximately $5-10 give or take to manufacturer.
@@tacticalcenter8658wait what, crkt has USA made knives with magnacut steel. They make knives all over any budget range....
Funny how you think 20 years ago was an “early folders” era.
Some much easier when Dr. Thomas can walk us through the tables and give honest results
I have a couple of 8cr13Mov knifes and theyve always held up to abuse and they're easy to sharpen
Thank you for all your research and testing. I have been curious what you educated guess on AUS-10 would be?
thank you for these very scientific test and evaluations. my engineering nerd is happy
Nice stuff. I was a bit amazed by how low the toughness was on 1.4116/50CrMoV15. I know it ain't great steel but I thought it would at least be tough thanks to little carbon. Guess not.
Another question, do you think you'll ever design an ingot knife steel? I know they're not nearly as performing but if you took the AEB-L idea and maybe tossed in cobalt for an even harder matrix steel.. perhaps that's already been done.
Another question.. why is titanium carbide much less used if it gives similar hardness to niobium and also very near vanadium carbides?
Edit: looks like you did make a niobium carbide AEB-L, too bad it's not in broader production.
Also heard a new CPM steel is in testing, and I really hope you got your fingers in that pie.
In your toughness chart the N690 has been placed almost in the bottom but in the Joe X knife tests N690 and Aus8 came up of the top of all of the stainless steel,which is a good news from me, since they're all a budget friendly.
Another great video, cheers!
Hey Dr. Larrin, I was wondering if you have any insight and thoughts on Bohler K890?
Thank you for your time!
I have a benchmade vex (Chinese made value series knife) with a 8cr13moV blade. I love the knife, I hate the blade. Doesn’t hold an edge very well at any reasonable angle. So I’m wondering if the heat treat is just poor.
I really like 8Cr13MoV, it is my favorite readily available steel. I wish AEB-L was used as much as 8Cr13MoV and AUS 8
Great article as always. By the amount and size of carbides formed I wonder if 7Cr13 would perform better. I bet it would.
6Cr13 and 7Cr13 are the same approximate composition as AEB-L.
10:57
Just helping a brother out, when you plot data like that its better if you don't use a smoothed connecting line between the points. It generates features that (probably) don't exist. For example, on the No Cryo plot on the left, just below 2000F Austenitizing there is a local maxima, which implies something interesting is happening there. Its simply an artifact of the plotting software, though. With your level of measurement capacity it may be worth it to get into a different plotting software like Igor or (my personal favorite) kaleidagraph. It'll help your plots match your skills and efforts over what Excel can do.
Serious quick question, what does a edge need to accidentally bump into large staples(something you see in heavy duty cardboard box) and came out the best? is it "toughness"? as I can slightly squish it with softer material and it bounced back? I run into those accidents sometime. (and asphalts too, rarely, but still it gets into contact with my knife too)
My unprofessional opinion as a mech eng student and amateur bladed implement enthusiast, that would be hardness. The harder your edge the better it'll survive the relatively soft staple. But it depends on the edge geometry as well, if it's too thin, then the form factor takes precedence. Toughness is more so to deal with its ability to take impacts like batoning or chopping trees.
@@SniperAngle12 thanks mate, come to think of it, maybe 15 degrees on 1.4116 is kinda living dangerously.
0_o.....15* really IS living dangerously on 4116!!!@@joshchu
Hey Lerrin, is 80crV2 in comparison to 1095 a better edge holding steel (I know geometry…).
And is 420c actually as tough as 1080 carbon steel?
I was a bit confused by the charts on your Website.
Thank you so much for inventing magnacut it’s a great steal but I had especially with the corrosion resistance very different experiences with a few companies.
Thanks for answering 🤗
80CrV2 and 1095 are similar for wear resistance and edge holding because they are pretty simple steels without much carbide. The CATRA test can't easily distinguish them. 420HC has very high toughness, yes. It is sometimes denigrated as a "budget" steel but that doesn't mean the toughness is low.
Thank you for the answer! Most of the big high impact tools are made of simple carbon steel. Is 420HC just more challenging to heat treat but with the same hrc just as stable as for example 1075?
I have 2 unrelated questions.
Firstly, Is there any update you can share on niomax? I've been incredibly excited for the steel since you first talked about its properties in the small test melts.
Secondly, what are the properties of tantalum as a carbide former in relation to blade steels? I'd assume they'd be pretty similar to niobium but at a greater cost.
Inducing vibrations in a liquid has been shown to dramatically increase the ability of that liquid to transfer heat.
Do you think this concept would be beneficial at all to the quenching process? I saw you mention in another video that the increase in hardness from quenching steel is not due to internal stresses acting against the outer casing like a prince rupert drop. Since thats not the case i'm curious if there would be any benefit to an increase in the rate of cooling.
Go to google scholar and search "Steel superstrengthening phenomenon" by Ni Kobasco. That paper mentions the effect that vibratory quenching has on martensite.
Amazing, a steel that so many users regard as worthless is on par with M4 for toughness.
Larnin I remember that article on the Blade Forum. Your work is amazing and such a great resource for the forums.
I noticed that there is no rating for CPM-CRUWEAR in your list, is there a reason for this? I'm curious. Thank you sir.
Because that chart is only the stainless steels
I've got an old Boker AUS-8 Taiwan. Never had an issue with the blade. And I used it for everything.
Very excellent video very good learnings for sharing a lot of good learnings! The common person only knows the user end of these materials if you use long enough there is no Holy Grail in metals play all depends on what you're doing with it. If your application is wrong so is the steel!😊
Hi Larren, I have a question, would you see any improvement in toughness in a nickel steel like L6 or z-tuff if you added between 1 to 2% silicon in it like you see in the silicon shock resistant grades like S5 and 9260 spring steel, or is there some sort of negative reaction between nickel and silicon that would prevent there being any improvements from adding silicon in the alloy?
Just wondered because in all of these attempts to make shock resistant nickel steels you never see silicon added.
Thanks
The most common example is 300M, which is a modified 4340 with 1.6% Si. 4340 and 300M both have close to 2% nickel. The silicon primarily allows for higher tempering temperatures, or resistance to softening at higher temperatures. At lower tempering temperatures or high hardness the silicon isn't always beneficial. For example in my article on silicon steels there is a study I cited with 0.6% carbon and three silicon levels (it also had 1.8% Nickel!). The toughness at max hardness was better with lower silicon. It was more in the intermediate hardness range (~55 Rc) where the higher silicon led to better toughness-hardness balance. knifesteelnerds.com/2018/10/22/silicon-additions-for-improving-steel-toughness/
@@KnifeSteelNerds Very interesting, thanks Larren!
@@KnifeSteelNerds So I read through your article and it makes a lot of sense, but I'm just confused about one thing.
How is S5 tougher than S7 at 58hrc?
S5 is one these high Si steels, and it actually has slightly more carbon than S7, but for some reason it's not only tougher below 56hrc, it's tougher at 58hrc as well.
All that being said, what do you recommend as a good SS for home amateur knife makers, you have a very informative channel but as a beginner I foundered in all the technical aspects 👍🏻🇮🇪
I was recently looking at different methods of stock removal, what are your thoughts on using a cnc plasma cutter for stock removal in knifemaking?
Im an older gentleman. Glad to have 8cr13mov, AUS 8, and D2 steel in my pocket collection collection
They're all good steels compared to barebones carbon steel, which ain't half bad either when made into a good knife. The heat treat and grind are most important, the steel comes after that.
Thanks for this, that was certainly interesting and without any snobbery. Take a Sub.
I had a CRKT M21-14G with that steel. It definitely took a whooping before it finally broke when I was being a lazy ass and didn't want to go get my pry tool to pry a part off my car. I'm not huge on chinese made stuff but the CRKT was a gift and was one of the best chinese blades I've ever used steel wise and being designed by an American company means that it could at least be trusted to be made of the claimed steel
Hello Doctor.
I have a question concerning steel, more specific: Sandvik 12C27.
I am an engineer and innovator, having patented a "device", and using 12C27, as a "knife".
This is creating a problem today. Sandvik/Aleima, seem to have problems with deliveries.
So, are You able to give me some advice concerning the "cutting edge" problems?
And, if necessary, I will pay the cost for Your consultancy.
Send an answer, either way.
from a Finn in Diaspora
Thanks for this!
It looks like the defects from rolled carbides shouldn't be very detrimental as far as breaking the blade. Does that sound accurate?
I cant believe how close this cheap steel is to so many high end ones.
Yes for breaking the whole blade the carbide bands wouldn’t be an issue. Unless the manufacturer is cutting blades out in the “wrong” direction which definitely isn’t unheard of. The bands can lead to easier fracture with side loading the edge, however.
@@KnifeSteelNerdsthanks Larin! I hope more knife makers keep in mind that there are men in uniform that “side load” their blades in the most uncivilized manner while in the field. Speaking from experience of working with the Marines for the last 26 years.
CJRB made 9cr into rpm9 using the powder metallurgy process can the same be done to 14c28n or AEB L to make some Beter blades??
The carbide structure of AEB-L and 14C28N is already very fine because they are designed where the carbides dissolve during forging and then “re-precipitate” later, called secondary carbides. Powder metallurgy works to refine the “primary carbides” that form during solidification and don’t dissolve during processing.
@KnifeSteelNerds so.... no lol
Thanks for the Reply. I never thought I would love to ne4d out on this particular subject but u have made the learning interesting so I follow along
Thanks!
@@KnifeSteelNerds is it that the gains from the process would be Negligible So the effort isn't really worth it then.
Как в бытовых условиях отличить 8Cr13MoV от 440C ?? Возможно ли это сделать по цвету искры??
As I am still a noob where does something like the steel on victornox knives sit in comparison to this? I have started watching your videos but I don’t know if you compare to super steels or everyday steels or what. Thanks
ANd I left wondering why I don't see more custom makers using lc200n and AEB-L :)
AEB-L is quite common in custom knives though LC200N less so.
@KnifeSteelNerds I've heard that. Yet internet searches for larger knives and small machetes in either steel seem to come up empty. Even 14c28 production seems to offer only the helle nord. I've been casually trying to find something like an esee 6 replacement and 10" ish duku chandong parang that will live on a boat in Salt water. I really don't want 8cr, aus8, or 420hc. Lc200n, with a corresponding edge and geometry wood be ideal, but AEB-L seemed like it would be easier to find, though it will need more corrosion management. Maybe I found a gap in the market- better steel for mariners who camp 🤣
The spyderco Caribbean and Magnacut Native 5 are fine for folders, ofc.
I see a lot of customs in AEB-L. LC200N was already less common and MagnaCut seems to have stolen some of its thunder. For instance, I have a custom in LC200N that I love. The maker has since stopped using it in favor of MagnaCut.
@chronovore3726 Size? I keep finding
@@chronovore3726Well, the hardness of LC200n is capped at ~60rc due to its chemistry. MagnaCut has more versatility with hardness.
love your work. what do you think of artisans gimmicky pm steel, also made in China, with .7 carbon, 18% chromium, etc. is there any actual reason they needed to use pm or did they do it just so they could market basically 440A or 19C27 or whatever as zomg pm steel! which generally when consumers hear pm steel that implies vanadium... otherwise, as far as I understand, what's even the point? with some exceptions ofc like zdp189 with it's crazy 3% carbon 20% chromium, a steel that physically would not be possible without pm. as far as I understand. thanks.
Its not really powdered metallurgy.
@@tacticalcenter8658 what is it? sprayform?
@@TimJohnson-x1o There is a small tool steel manufacturer in east of China and the Chinese version VG10 is also coming from this factory. You can tailor make the steel composition you want at this mill, but they do not make any powdered stainless steel, because they don’t have the equipment. It‘s electric arc steel. This is also where aarpm9 is made.
17:21 look at that 80crv2 edge retention result. I know someone who'd be interested in that
Its all toughness at the expense of corrosion resistance and edge retention
why is D2 missing from the tables/charts?
Larrin, quick question for you. I read somewhere that a Chinese Steel firm in Hong Kong recently announced a discovery of a Steel that is corrosion resistant enough to be used in the place of titanium for Hydrogen production out of seawater. Have you heard of this? What are your thoughts? And what do you think the chances are they've merely made a copy of Magna-Cut or LC200N?
Alternate Energy sources/production methods are a hot topic today so this particular subject might warrant a bit of thought. I'm curious.
There are many stainless steels with better corrosion resistance than MagnaCut or LC200N, but they don’t have the hardness and wear resistance that we need in knives. But if you have a link to an article about the steel you are referencing I would be happy to look at it.
@KnifeSteelNerds OK it was professor Mingxin Huang at the University of Hong Kong(I was incorrect there, somehow remembering it as a firm? Ouch!) and the steel is called SS-H2. I'm on a cell so I can't make a link but I typed in a combination of words like Steel breakthrough Hong Kong Hydrogen Production into a browser and it came right up. There were multiple articles about the steel. I thought that it might be something you would find interesting academically, or perhaps even worth taking a stab at yourself. Best Wishes.
Like other high corrosion resistance steels that one doesn’t have any carbon in it. The new part is that they added 18% Mn while passivating it to get a “dual passivation” layer from both chromium and manganese. Even if you added carbon to it, the high Mn would mean it would be all retained austenite after quenching and wouldn’t harden to martensite. Interesting stuff though.
@KnifeSteelNerds That IS interesting stuff. Wow! Thanks for the feedback. I am curious 'tho as to why they refer to that alloy(s) as "Steel" when it(they) have a carbon content of zero. I would think the term "High Tech Iron Alloy" or equilivent would be more appropriate? Semantics, granted, but.....
Yes the definition of steel is not as straightforward as it initially may seem. Many stainless steels they try to keep the carbon as low as possible. Same with “ultra low carbon” steels.
Hey Larrin, do you have an opinion on the claims that a soft core and a harder outer layer makes for a tougher blade?
My take is that it doesn't at all because the core doesn't make the outer hard layer less brittle.
Any input?
I haven’t really given that any thought before. Cracks start at the surface but I suppose a soft core could stop the crack growth.
@@KnifeSteelNerds Hm. but isn't the crack passing from hard to less hard to soft in a gradient and thus propagate through even the soft core?
I appreciate you replied :)
I dont know much about this topic but seeing the difference 25 degrees can make when temperatures were already that high really shocked me.
Spyderco is always happy to grind this steel thin as hell too. I had a Byrd that was under 10 thou
To find out it’s an analogue is hilarious to me.
I’m after names Dr! Could one technically name a steel anything? Imagine making a steel that’s so good that people can’t help but use it, but it’s called XxXBl33ding4ng3lXxX
Yeahh little Timmy 💪🇦🇺
Keep spreading the good word Larrin, the snobbery around some of these cheap stainless steels drives me nuts.
I'll happily use steels all the way down to 105X for certain things but it drives me crazy seeing end users hyping up steels like 80CrV2 while simultaneously shitting on 8Cr, 420HC, 440 ect..
It's all in the naming conventions 🤣
i STRONGLY agree with you, but I just can't with steels like 105x.. not even for a straight razor... I just see no reason to use basic carbon steels in knives, they offer zero benefit over low alloy steels... I do enjoy my c135 in my french straight razors though. that's the only use I've seen where it makes any sense.
@@TimJohnson-x1o can't say I'd want it in a straight razor or even a knife but have found it to perform surprisingly well in cheap machetes like those from tramontina.
Why is it easier to get 8cr13mov here than it is 1084 or 1095? Any other aussies noticing the shortages/higher prices of steel 🇦🇺
Why did you throw away those knives? I thought you were super into this stuff? Also, did you thank your viewer that offered to go through all that trouble for you?
I always considered 8Cr13MoV as very similar to 440C. Like between 440B and 440C. 🤔
Thank you larrin for another informative video
So admittedly I haven’t read everything from your website so you may have addressed this
I’m really curious about these Damascus steels with layers of copper, silver and even gold or titanium
It just brings so many questions
How well is it actually bonded will actions like flexing , impact even just exposure to oxidizers from cutting acid materials and washing will delamination be a problem
They are all “diffusion bonded” so the bonds themselves are just fine, as with regular steel Damascus.
Can you test the japanese Steel 1k6 plz?
Looks like the composition is identical to 12C27.
@@KnifeSteelNerds thank you!
Interesting that 5cr15mov was not also mentioned as an analog to the German 1.4116 steel. Funny how people will poo poo the 5cr, but then be ok with the 4116 as it is so common in everyone's kitchen. They are both the same.
When it comes to knives the temper of a blade is far more important of a factor with regards to each type of steel than the origin of manufacture.
@@claypoole702anybody watching a channel named " knife steel nerd" and a video on " 8CR14MoV",
Doesn't need to be told that
@@SwampOperator he's got a valid point on why it's poopooed. Chemistry isn't everything.
Never really cared for either
To be fair, 1.4116 looks abysmal in the toughness- hardness- edgeretention balance on knifesteelnerds. Might be poor processing of the steel samples from the manufacturers side, but still....
Your not telling me anything I didn't already know 🤣🤣🤣 but still nice to see hard evidence to present to the steel snobs. I've gotten into many arguments over knife steels through the years, and the common denominator for the snobs, is the newest and most expensive is the best steel. What idiots they truly are. All steels are in essence super steels. They are all stronger and harder than plain iron. However they all have different properties that make them ideal for certain uses. You can make a knife out of any steel, but it's durability and edge retention will depend on its intended use, and the hardening, tempering process used. Schrade uses 8Cr13MoV and 8Cr17Mov in their knives. I have no complaints about this stell.
It would be nice to see a video about the effects of dish washing machines on knives. With some scientific methods backing up the insights.
Dude.. never put any knife but a butter knife in a dishwasher. Between getting jostled around banging the blade edge against stuff but your dish detergent is corrosive.
@@SilvaDreams I never did that in 52 years in my life of existence. Nevertheless, I would be interested, if the effects are only on the corrosion side, or also on the sharpness etc.
@@steffwo lol I could give you examples, my friend and roommate does it to her knives. Dull as can be, had to yell at her when she tried to do it to mine.
@@SilvaDreamsThere is one good thing about your situation. IIf it would ever happen, that you and her would have a knife fight in the kitchen, I would surely bet all my dollars to the one with the rasor sharp knives, hahaha.
@steffwo Yes but dull knives are worse because they rip and tear instead of making clean cuts. (though I'd win because I use to be a cook, did medieval weapon fights and have medical knowledge on my side so I know where to cut for arteries)
Thank you
alright now i want a kershaw 8cr at 63 hrc lmao how sick would that be
Can you also make a some content about sword steels? Would really like to now more about L6 and T10 and also 5160 and 6150. Would be really interesting to see your opinion on steels for Swords in general, unless you think that for some reason you aren't qualified enough to talk about swords rather than knives.
knifesteelnerds.com/2019/04/01/how-to-heat-treat-5160/
knifesteelnerds.com/2023/03/22/how-to-heat-treat-nickel-knife-steels-15n20-8670-l6/
Not about the steel only but the geometry and the ht should be count
I think you'll see most Chinese 8cr13MoV will be on average, 57rc. The highest I've seen was spyderco's at 61rc but I've also seen Spyderco as low as 57rc. Other brands like crkt are 58rc or lower.
From everyone rc testing it in the states as well as on those tested on billibilli and Rus testers.
All the cut testers that have tested 8cr13mov production knives, its all been pretty low performing in comparison to everything else.
Pretty sure at the price points these go for and the cost to make them in the $5 to $15 range, they don't care much.
Sub standard heat treat is the common problem of Yangjiang made knives. And gave a bad reputation to such a good steel. When heat treated probably like what Larrin did. They are pretty good steel.
Excellent
What the response was from your 8CrMoV supplier (Michael Ho), when it was discovered that the steel type was incorrect? Does this call into question the credibility of the certifier/ certification process? How common are such mistakes? I'm guessing that wouldn't make large-scale clients of such products very happy. I've never had much faith in the specs claimed by low-end Chinese manufacturers.
Something I've never understood is how a knife steel can be "nationized". How can there be a Japanese/Chinese/European/etc steel? Do various federal governments own the copyrights to a given steel formula?
I am surprised by how high 420hc is in the toughness category.