AHF Military sabre vs Katana sparring - Steve vs Nick
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- Опубликовано: 5 дек 2014
- A fun weapon match up. The user of the katana (bokken) here has no training in Japanese sword arts, but is a student of the European equivalent, the longsword. Fighting against one of his instructors, who is using sabre.
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Sabre guy's like "this isn't even my final form"
Sabre Guy = Zaraki Kenpachi Easy Form. :DD
the only dislikes are from people who came here to see katana guy win.
+Mat Varela I am one of them.
+Mat Varela
I think the dislikes are mainly from people who came in to see fights that are usually shown in the movies.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to the fighters' skill.
+Mat Varela I'm not very impressed with the Katana guys style, I don't know what style he's studied but I work in a defensive form of Martial arts and one thing you never do is hold your katana behind you, you always keep the tip pointed at the enemy and go for thrusts and slashes.
+Colin M He is a European longsword practitioner. But no you do not always hold a sword in front with the point forward. That is common in some styles, and especially more modern ones. In European longsword, just as in kenjutsu, there are many guards with a withdrawn tip, such as you see in this video.
+Academy of Historical Fencing Call one kendo practitioner and make it again! Im very curious.
Watching the guy with the sabre and his precise and classy movement makes me think that I'm watching Count Dooku fight
Clone Trooper Commander Doom Well Dooku's style was based on the saber. Classy as he was.
Pasan Etternavn Correct- Dooku was a form 2 practitioner, which was the equivalent to saber fencing in the star wars universe.
So give him a saber and he'd be right at home.
hahaha
+dbsn1231 Dooku's name, accent, and mustache get him pretty far as it is. people probably feel uneasy around him worrying if they're going to mispronounce his name and accidentally blurt out a vulgar bathroom nomenclature in front of the women by the hors devours at the cocktail party... Give him a light saber (or even a light calvary saber) and he becomes a serious problem that requires a jedi master with years of public speaking, impeccable grammar, and extraordinary elocution to handle...like master Yoda.
Clone Trooper Commander Doom That is now 1700-1850 military officers do lol
Using katana without protect gauntlets against sabre is not possible. The sabre fencer cut trough your fingers thousand times.
@Dark of the knight Link?
Yup, pull cut, pull cut, pull cut!!
Katana man = 0
Sabre man = 12
i didn't included draws but by my count their were 2
I generally count draws as a point for both (unless it's a time-limit thing), so more like 2-14
@@martinkollarovic9376 I believe in draws both lose because...well...you know
Since the katana would deal way more damage maybe the point would go towards it… maybe
It clearly was the skill, not the weapon. There are also a lot of misconceptions around Katanas. Samurai didn't go to war with normal Katana. There were heavier, much more sturdier and longer versions when the real stuff was going down as far as I understand Japanese history. The usual comparison with sabres or medieval European swords is probably inaccurate.
Sabre serve us well in Poland for centuries. Tested in many great battles, in many different opponents (turks, mongols, russians, germans, swedes and so on).
If not for sabre Poland would not exist in such hard place (between rock Germany and hard Russia). I would not swap good sabre for katana.
Well said.
+pitbbpl "If not for sabre Poland would not exist in such hard place (between rock Germany and hard Russia)" Btw it did'nt existed majority of time.
+Вадим Холодов 123 years it is majority of time :)
btw only poslih army armed with polish sabres take Moscow
Plain wrong. Napoleon also did it.
Tatars did it.Mongols did it.
+ the technique in the polish video suits for a circus. They miss wooden horses between legs. However, the real historical polish warriors, of course, were far better and rational. This 'cross-cutting' bonanza is not fencing at all.
+ speaking of majority of time I presume, that in time when both Russia and Germany were established states. That is - majority of time, when we speak about "between rock Germany and hard Russia".
+Вадим Холодов Read up on the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Polish Winged Hussars.
Military sabre technique is damn sexy. Like a dance.
EnhancedNightmare Esgrima española (verdadera destreza) is Style name
@@Jose-xd6go It isnt i think. There is not a rapier or dagger.
@@jolly5886 no need for it , the style comprehends a variety of swords, it is meant to be a universal style for all weapons (obvious diferences and adaptations for each weapons but basically its meant for all)
military sabre combat style looks so cool!
+Colonel Thyran hes just advanced
+Colonel Thyran Check out how the polish use the sabre
+Colonel Thyran It's very dignified. You can just imagine a British sabreur smoking a pipe and worrying about getting home in time for tea as he slices limbs off his opponent. He could probably have kept a top hat on throughout this.
I could imagine that.
+Colonel Thyran He looks like an officer :D
The sabre's blade is longer and using it one handed (of course) with the body bladed behind it means the sabre has more reach and for the katana to attack effectively, he has to get past the sabre. Without a guard for the hands, the sabre commonly avoids the attack or parries and ripostes. On occasion, some stop cuts against an exposed hand or arm. A more experienced katana user might have gotten in more hits, but I think the sabre has the advantage.
damn, that sabre is elegant!
the katana guy only lost because he didn't possess the noble soul of a samurai
Do you mean seriously or joking? (sorry for my bad english)
lol! :)
The real problem was that the katana guy was not a master of his weapon an the sabre guy was. The use of the katana was very elementary and did not include much in the way of technical skill or tactical experience with this weapon. The sabre was used very competently and efficiently. An enjoyable bout to watch.
haha
excuses, excuses ...
I've heard of Military Sabers being paired with Revolvers in the 1800s and early 1900s but I'm sure that would not be fair in sparing.
MrLegodude159 Yep, the pistol and sabre combination was standard practice for British officers from 1862 (and a little earlier for some individuals) until the swords demise in WW1 where it was quickly dropped.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing It's so sad how firearms and explosives took over, in my opinion there's much more honor and accountability in melee combat.
A very interesting video, thank you. The katana user is not fighting in a Japanese style, is he normally a longswordsman? The katana has some obvious disadvantages if you try to use it like a single-edged longsword (as can be seen here). Japanese sword arts developed largely in isolation and Japanese swordsman rarely had to fight against radically different weapons. Even so, I imagine a high-ranking practitioner of kenjutsu might do a little better- if only from greater familiarity with the weapon.
From my point of view, it seems the swordsman with katana misjudged distance regularly. A saber is roughly the same length or just slightly longer than a katana, but when wielded singled handed the reach extend a good 30cm/1 foot or so. Speed wise the katana is at a disadvantage from the beginning, and he should have compensated that with the stronger leverage of the two-handed sword and seek opportunities to parry or deflect.
Variety of weapons was quite wide in Japan and during Edo period Japanese learned a lot from the Dutch, so they might know of techniques good against sabre. I think it's more about the bokuto user being crap
John, he is not. They say that in the description of the video
@@9SS94Cr e saber is faster. The warrior operates with one hand and has a longer range. A nice show, but in a match between two equals, a warrior with a katana would be in a lost position. The saber has changed over the years and this gives you an advantage.
@@9SS94Cr I guess id use the katana sometimes one handed to have a surprise like range advantage.
Sabre guy killed it!!
+X Maneuver It`s like lightsaber vs boken.
LordLofty y read the description, he's actually a longsword user and had no real training for a katana
I'm quite surprised at how effective the saber is. It's reach isn't very long but it's direction of attack can be very unpredictable.
Razzy1312 The reach is a lot more than you might think. The 80cm blade is slightly longer than the katana one, and longer than original Katanas in general. Also its one handed grip and allow for reach that a two handed grip does not in many actions. The rapid change of direction is certainly a massive feature of the sabre. It's one handed grip, lack of pommel to restrict movement, and recurved grip all aid in very quick rotations and change of direction, whilst developing a lot of power at the same time.
Academy of Historical Fencing am i right? the sabre is tha last really used sword in military history. kavallerie used it still at the beginning of the 20th c. at leat in the 19th c..
moxigen correct but this is infantry one - cavalry swords used in era you mentioned were to 'give point' means thrust check scholagladiatoria chanel here on youtube best overview I have found so far
btw this saber guy on the video is proper beast :D beautiful style sir :)
titanscerw
i would instantly join a club where i could learn to use of the sabre right, but nothing here :( just that olympic fancy fencing. not my style i pref effectiveness over rules.
moxigen Start your own club! All you need is a pair of safe training weapons, a partner, a place to study and a text to study. Many of the current crop of HEMA instructors learned by studying fencing manuals for their chosen weapons, and if you want to learn sabre (as opposed to say, longsword) the sources are very complete and require little interpretation. Here's a victorian military sabre treatise that's freely available online to get you started :)
www.thearma.org/pdf/ColdSteel.pdf
You can tell the difference of experience. What fantastic technique from the sabreist. And fair play to the man with the katana, he's doing great, but there's just an obvious experience gap.
And there's probably some inherent advantages for the sabre use.
The one with a saber has similar footwork to a boxer. Not crossing his feet, moving left with the left foot first, moving right with the right foot first. Moving back with the back foot first, and vice verse for the front. It's beautiful really
Awesome. I was waiting for this. Thanks for uploading it.
Wow. The sabre fencer does some matrix-stuff in there. Looks like he could be talking on the phone at the same time, lol.
the one holding the bokken is a rookie he fell to the same trick 5 times
i also noticed that
That settles it! Western sword beats katana anytime!! Who needs a katana user with any experience
He only has to fall for it once!
Why the hell are so many people griping about the fact that a longsword user is fighting with a katana?
A katana is just a Japanese longsword.
They are both two handed, albeit the katana is quite a bit shorter, so two handed techniques will work with either weapon. They won't be perfect, but they work just fine.
+DeathsHood Yep, you can get Japanese swords the same size as longswords too, they really aren't that different at all. But then swords are like diets, everyone wants a miracle. Everyone wants one thing to excel above all else and be the answer. The reality is that most swordsman in most cultures could, and often enough did, happily use weapons from other cultures. For most swords it really just comes down to, is it one or two handed, is it thrust or cut orientated, does it have a lot of hand protection or not? Those are the key points, then you use the sword accordingly.
+DeathsHood A couple of things stand out which are keeping him from using the Katana as well as he could, but otherwise you're totally right.
To get as much reach as possible, given that it is a shorter weapon, he should almost always have his right (same side as top hand) foot forward. The weapon is just not long enough to make that initial stance particularly great, and having the weapon forward would allow him to protect himself much better when he ends up surprised to be in measure of the longer weapon.
Otherwise, good times. I encourage them to keep up the great work.
+DeathsHood Umm.... This is not a fucking longsword. Its a Sabre, a one handed, single edge cutting weapon used during the 16-18th centuries in Europe, usually as a Cavalry side weapon, or a sign of rank for officers, the best of which was the Polish Hussar Szabla.
+Dark Spectre Gaming Did you even pay attention to the weapon I was talking about?
It sure wasn't the sabre, I can tell you that much.
*****
Im talking about the weapon in the video, which you seemed to be referring to.
EDIT: My bad, I misread your comment. I apologise. You were referring to the fact the katana user is normally fighting with a european longsword....
Polish saber is amazing. I'm surprised how well he does in combat.
ist ahunagrian saber. made here at 600. even the name saber come from the hunagrian szablya.
Thanks. Always wanted to watch a katana vs. saber session. The saber practitioner in this match seems much more skilled.
That's just because he's going against a man who is trying to fight with a katana...
+Charles W Yes he is. Sabre practitioner is the instructor of the other student and has many more years of training and experience.
+Academy of Historical Fencing I was just joking. :) I admit I'm fairly ignorant to "Deadliest Warrior Match" where we get to watch weapons and fighting styles that would have never met on the field of battle and throw them in a ring or on a mat and see what happens, but I perceive an advantage to the sabre man. Do you agree or no?
+epic_fail The Deadlist Warrior series is bloody awful in terms of accuracy, despite the fact that it is entertaining at times. When using mixed weapons we always try and match up weapons that either did face one another historically, or likely could have.
Yes I believe the sabre has an advantage against katana. As blade length is typically equal, but the sabre can often reach further without the restriction of the two handed grip, but more significantly, the short grip allows for a massive range of motion and change of direction that the katana does not.
It's still only a small difference here and there though.
+epic_fail
The sabre and katana are different attempts at the same weapon. The katanas problem is that Japanese steel was poor so the ka needed an extra thick blade, which meant it had a two handed grip and couldn't have a sharpened tip on the spine side. So reach is greatly reduced compared to a sabre and the angles of attack are fewer.
This wasn't because the Japanese were stupid - they just had the world's poorest iron ore. The best ka were brilliant attempts at overcoming this, but they naturally couldn't match the best weapons made from better ore.
I think my favorite thing about these is watching how each person adjusts their stance as their opponent adjusts their stance. It's both humorous and interesting to watch.
+Academy of Historical Fencing +Pablo Dias +Colin M et all, I may be able to give a little bit of much needed middle ground to this topic. Caveat: I am mostly self taught with saber. I am studying saber in the Roworth and Angelo traditions, have taken Kendo classes for a bit and attended a few seminars, and I have some experience with both Kenjustu and Battojustu/Iaijutsu, and am in a Longsword group that follows the Lichtenauer tradition. I am in a group that teaches traditional Chinese gongfu sword fighting. I also used to Box. For those who don't know, Battojutsu is the ancient battlefield ancestor of Iaijutsu, which is the martial ancestor of Iaido. I love all arts, and am Just stating facts of these arts in these comments. Any insults that I amy give are directed at poor and un knowledgable practitioners, but the arts themselves.
so, a few points;
1. THE MAN WITH THE SABER IS THE OTHER FENCER'S TEACHER, As AHF has pointed out. So, when you can consistently beat your sensei, its time to pass judgement.
2. re: get a Kendoka in there to use the Katana. Then get an olympic saber fencer to handle the saber. You are comparing apples to oranges. Now, as I have incited the rage of the fanboys with this statement, allow me to explain. This is a complicated issue, but the use of the kanji "DO" vs the kanji "JUTSU" has quite a bit of meaning. In Japan, kendo is a martial art, and I respect that, but in Japan there is also 2 classifications of martial art, DO and JUTSU. so, KEN-DO is the inner way of the sword, or the way of the sword. KEN-JUTSU is the art of the sword. By Japanese definition, they are both martial arts but in different categories. There isn't really a western equivalent of this system of classification. The best comparison I can come up with is the "Boxing vs MMA" argument. Boxing and MMA are both technically "sports" (or martial arts if you prefer, but the concept that matters here is that they are classified the same) However, in a "real" fight, the MMA guy has an advantage, due to the ground game being part of his sport (kicks too, to a much lesser degree) Does this mean that the Boxer stands no chance in a fight? Heck no! he would be a heck of a fighter, just that his trained skill set is limited to the limitations of his art. This is the same in the Kendo vs Kenjutsu argument. A well trained Kendoka would be a formidable opponent in a sword fight, but there are certain limitations imposed on his skill set due to the nature of his art. The best example(s) are the manner in which a kendoka makes his strikes and to where. In Kendo, you strike with the opponent in 4 different areas, usually with the tip of the shinai. who strikes first matters, afterblows don't count. also, a thrust to the do area for example is invalid, whereas in real sword fighting a thrust to the chest would tend to be rather fatal. Also, if a Hasso player is fighting a Chudan player (Vom Tag vs Langenort for us european fellows) and the Chudan player gives a tip cut to the Kote (roughly wrist area) as the Hasso player brings down a large passing cut to the neck area, Chudan (assuming yukodatosu) gets the point Hasso has an invalid strike. In reality, Hasso has a cut on his wrist, perhaps deep needing attention, but Chudan is quite dead... You see where I'm going here? Please consider all the areas of your body that, when punctured by a cut or thrust, would result in death or incapacitation or at least stop you from fighting, now list all the valid target areas in Kendo. Which list is longer? Oh yes, I realize that Hasso isn't used often at all in modern Kendo, (kata's excepted) but that was an intentional choice leading me to my next point...
3. You state that the gentleman using the Katana was doing so incorrectly, and that his guards were incorrect. You insulted him, so I shall defend him and return the favor. Whomsoever holds this belief is obviously a low level Kendo practitioner, whom has approached his art with a closed mind, unable and unwilling to do his own research. One of you said that "blade retracted guards are wrong." REALLY? This is why I saw you are a low level Kendoka. Have you never seen Jodan no Kamae? The guard that he is using predominately in this video, remember it and ask your sensei what Hasso no Kamae looks like. I'll bet you that the only difference is that your sensei's hands will be a little bit higher up (a couple inches max.) In German it is called Vom Tag, Japanese Hasso no Kamae, and I don't know the name in Italian. contd. in part 4
4. "Guards are completely different. You people are uneducated. Here is a list of guards, they may differ in a few details but they are essentially the same: I may use some Italian names, but mostly German. Look them up.
Japanese/European (all Japanese names end in "no Kamae")
Chudan/Langenort(lit. longpoint) or Poste Longe
Jodan/ Vom Tag (high. German tradition makes little differentiation, all are correct Vom Tag positions.) Poste Falcone
Hasso/Vom Tag
Gedan/Alber (kendo Gedan and Kenjutsu Gedan differ the european equivalent is the same as the latter.)
Waki/Nebelnut
I'm out of Kendo Kamae, thats all there is. I will continue in Kenjutsu Kamae.
Ko Gasumi/ Ochs
Te Ura Gasumi/ Also Ochs (these are the same guard, just done on different sides of the body)
The list goes on. do some research.
5. The differences: it mostly comes down to the use of the reverse edge on the Longsword. The Katana does not have a reverse edge. However, Most techniques involving the use of it have an equivalent in traditional Kenjutsu, involving twisting the sword to use the true edge. Interestingly, the lack of the edge on the "spine" of the blade of the katana allows for some interesting techniques for unarmored combat, putting the rear hand on the spine of the blade for added leverage in small cutting arcs. However, these differences are academic and at least 90% of techniques in each tradition have an equivalent in the other. they may differ in detail though. For an example, a good amount of "riposte with point" longsword techniques tend to be executed with "riposte with push cut" when employed with a Katana. The mechanical differences are negligible.
6. Kendo vs Kenjutsu. Ive said some things that may be misconstrued as insults to Kendo as an art. Kendo has one huge advantage over Kenjutsu, and that is the systematic employment of sparring in the training regimen. Traditional Kenjutsu imparts knowledge through Kata, or sequences of moves. One of the most ancient schools in Japan, Katori Shinto Ryu, does not even explain the motions to its students, they are expected to figure it out through repetition by themselves. This is not out of the norm for traditional martial arts, Indeed many of them will (have, in my experience) go so far to say that "noting can be learned from sparring. it is all from kata." I think that is crap, and a good mix of academic and practical instruction is the best for applying skills. Kendo has this. This is also the reasoning for Kendo's rise to popularity in the end of the 19th and early 20th centuries, surpassing Kenjustsu. You actually got to use your skills. This is not true in (most) Kenjutsu or traditional martial arts. They tend to rarely, if ever (usually never) spar. It's all the performance of Kata. Now, far be it for me to insult a 600 year old (verifiable) tradition, but it would seem to me that a Kenjutsu practitioner would be at a slight disadvantage, at least at first, in free sparring.
7. In regards to the Saber. I could wax lyrical, but the most telling point I can make is this. in the late 1800's and into the early 1900's the Japanese had a Saber style weapon as the chief sidearm of their officer corps. It was known as the Kyu-Gunto. It was essentially a Katana blade with a european style hilt, that was a fraction longer than the norm. Call it a "hand and a half" hilt if you will. In 1909 they produced a manual for its use, and that manual was pretty much a carbon copy of european military saber systems from the later half of the 19th century (post Angelo) with a get bits of traditional Japanese swordsmanship put in there (hence the longer handle. the first part of the book was all one handed technique, as you see in the video, and the second part hand some two handed techniques. It was used to great effect against the Russians in the Russo Japanese war, and the two handed capability was mentioned as providing a great advantage against a soldier with a bayonet vs the purely one handed swords of the european officers).
I believe that I have prattled on long enough. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ask. I will answer what I can.
This is officially the longest comment ive ever seen on youtube
media.giphy.com/media/xT9DPuMFeilLak0VAA/giphy.gif
Saber performs the same function as a katana, slashing, it just does it with one hand. The dueling methods that developed for the Katana with two hands was counter productive. The sword was developed for slashing on horseback.
Float like a butterfly, sting like a murder hornet. Geez, that Sabre guy is so cool.
Nick seems like he’s only sparred a couple times and saberman here looks like hes done it a lifetime
Sabra guy owned that katana.......
it isnt about the sword, its about the one wielding it
you can fight this guy with a sword and he could still beat you with a stick
Kaido
what if the stick breaks ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
You could fight a Gurkha warrior with anything from a rapier to a zweihander and he owns you with a kukri. Skill is very important, possibly the most.
crazyt1ger08, he doesn’t even need that katana.
Know about the reach which katana doesn't have
The saber guys footwork is way better than the katana user. As in any kind of melee, everything comes from the feet and hips.
+Stive Lars its not so much about footwork here. the katana guy holds his weapon behind his hands a lot which leaves him unprotected (lack of very basic knowledge in weapon fighting). you can see the sabre guy hitting him with fast attacks when he positions himself like this. but, and thats the second point, these are the only moments the sabre guy attacks. the rest of the time he lets the katana guy take the offensiv and countering is way easier.
The saber wielder is pretty skilled at sniping the hands of his opponent :) Really cool video.
I really can't tell if the sabre guy is just BADASS or if the katana guy is just bad. No offense. It seems there is a big disparancy in skill.
+roachizkool Sabre user is the instructor of the katana user. Katana user is a competent longswordsman, but the sabre user (me), has vastly more experience and training.
+Academy of Historical Fencing Ah, thank you. I agree with you!
Plus, you forgot to mention he's not a skilled Katana practitioner.
Yes, it really looks like Steve was *really* wishing for a longer weapon here. Did you try that, longsword vs. sabre?
Do you think the outcome would've been different if you were the one using the katana? Would you still win by the same margin?
he's lucky he's using longsword techniques if he used it like katana he would have been even worse off
Its super interesting to see how much reach the dude with the saber has vs the katana, it seems like its massive.
Gotta love the sabre-guy's 'officer style' movements.
I quickly realized to watch the sabre only.. dude is crucial. if I could go back in time I'd do two things, go see dinosaurs and witness wars being fought hand to hand.
The dude with the Katana would benefit from a Kendo lesson or six.
I feel like the sabre has an advantage being a one handed weapon. You don't need to put your whole body into a swing
Also, holding with one hand gives u more reach coz u use right (left) side of ur body. While holding with two hands cuts ur reach coz u have to keep a sword in front of u. Moreover, onehanding is more versile as u noticed.
So, the difference is not only skill. It would be great to try nodachi instead of regular katana or smaller sabre.
Your spelling is terrible but you're right. However a nodachi wouldn't be a very fair opponent to a sabre considering it's basically a polearm
***** sorry for my spelling. I didnt know that nodachi classified as polearm. Then, how about tachi and odachi. These swords are longer than usual katana as I know. Odachi may be too long and heavy, but tachi seems to be appropriate choce.
It does. A modern Polish sabre (note - cavalry sword) has a total length comparable to that of a katana, and since its handle is about half the length, its blade is as long if not longer.
Also, the techniques with a katana are different from those used with a sabre, and are not as good for fencing. With sabre, or European/western one-handed weapon fencing in general, you are aiming to maximise your reach. Your arm side is forwards, just as well as you move or lunge forwards with main leg first. In Japanese sword-fighting, you are more focused on beating your opponent senseless...
@Kaio Oliveira
Nodachi and Oodachi were types of Nihonto, a Japanese sword. Both had longer blade and significantly longer handle than a katana; they were by no means polearms, though. Closer to a German longsword kinda thing.
@PAXMA INEVITABLE
Tachi is what could be described as a "Japanese sabre". While it is still quite different, it is an one-handed, strongly curved cavalry sword, dating before katana.
Well, the outcome seems obvious...I am curious though how an earlier (and longer) saber would have fared...also, how about trying this with a backsword or side sword?
I know almost nothing about sabre fencing but this looks quite beautiful and efficient to me.
The fencer with the katana seems to struggle a bit though... what swords and systems does he usually fence with?
I'm assuming he's not a Kenjutsu practitioner. He certainly looks like he's using long sword techniques.
Love the swordplay. I've always favoured the sabre in competition/sparring duels or 1v1. In group engagements I lean more so toward tower shield and hand and half sword, I've tried using rapier in these group engagements but often find myself feeling vulnerable against massed longswords which can easily swipe my weapon aside.
Саблист здорово двигается!
Это да. Да самой саблей легче орудовать, двигаешь кистью а не 2 руками, плюс за счёт вытянутой руки ты имеешь преемущество в дистанции. Сабля однозначно выигрывает у каианы. Если боец опытный конечно же)
sabre guy is using the italian guards at the begining right? i really need to remember those, ive seen them so little
The paradox of the two-handed sword is that a one-handed sword usually has more reach, since it can be held further away from the body. Or so it seems to me, when I see videos that pit them against each other.
I trained with a Katana for several years, and to be honest I don't know what I could do, the flexible and unpredictable patters of the sabre are too much for a Katana user, even a professional.
I guess if you go full reckless abandon and just go full katana barrage in hopes of killing your opponent faster than he kills you, its possible to win, but in a tactical battle, Katana has no chance, its too stumpy, short, and rigid :/
sabre is part of polish soul... we have it inside :)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is a katana not much besides a heavier saber with a hand-and-half grip? Take two people with equal levels of skill at katana and sabre respectively; when would the sabre not come out ahead?
I love sabers, masterful, slick and badass weapons.
Military sabre 12 hits Katana 1 ;-)
I think it's the skill level of the opponents, you watch closely, you can feel the fatherly attitude. Sabre-guy was up against a high-schooler.
pinz2022 Sabre user is the Katana users instructor with many more years practice and experience. We never said it was a fair fight though :-) Few ever are.
You can see the Katana user is used to the longsword by how often he misjudges his own reach.
Do you find the blackfencer/pentii sabres have enough hand protection for controlled sparring with minimal protective gear? I really like the look of them but I worry about taking hits to the fingers. Do you think I might be better off using the rawlings backsword trainer?
Jack Traveller When used with a substantial glove like the Red Dragon or Arcensis type, yes. The thing you have to appreciate is that an open hilted sabre and a basket/bowl guard are quite different. We use both. The Rawlings backsword does hit lighter and offer more hand protection, but it is harder to provide wrist protection due to large gloves not fitting into the hilt.
I thought that might be the case. It seems like unless you want to go for steel there are no cheap sabre trainers with a full shell. I've only just started dipping my toe into sabre, and I do like it but Im not sure if I want to invest in steel yet. Would you advise HEMA gloves & knucklebow synthetics then? My primary source is Hutton.
There are a bunch of ninja/samurai fans out there. They love those warriors so they claimed that the katana was the best sword. A bunch of people proved that the katana wasn't the best sword, But they are not stopping there. They are kicking it while it is down. They are saying things like "Is the katana good against anything?" or "The katana is stupid, long hilt short blade!". Its discraceful to see a sword used to great effect in countless wars and duels pissed on in this way. Just read the comments of this video. Being hipster and talking crap about the katana DOESN'T make you cool.
+Antoo Masko Indeed, and we do everything we can do counter that issue. We work to dispel myths and hate for all swords. General knowledge and perception on most swords is off by a million miles.
It's just that: people tend to forget combat is never about weapons or style. It's always about individual vs individual.
That being said, both sides got plenty of biased people.
+Jenci21 Not never about the weapon or style. Certain weapons do have some degree of advantage or disadvantage over others in particular scenarios. Sometimes that can be a minor one, sometimes a major one. A mediocre fighter can frequently beat an expert one if given spear against sword for example.
You will indeed find plenty of bias for most weapons in their communities though yes.
HEMA Instructor Nick Thomas
I felt like I left something out from my comment, I certainly agree with this.
Sadly ego seems to follow these type of discussions.
The distance and speed of sabre doesnt give any chance to olddated and overrated japan sword...
This is really beautiful to watch.
Man Sabers are cool, this academy looks like a ton of fun
The fightig in this video looks strange... It feels as if the Katana fencer is desperately wanting a longer weapon. A longsword, a tachi, a nodachi or similar. I have always found it strange that the japanese insist on using the shorter katanas in a two-handed fashion. Maybe they were just so used to the longer battlefield swords that hey didn't want to invent a different way to use their shorter side weapons.
Of course, except when they did, like in Niten Ichi Ryu ;)
Oliver Ullmann Something about the Japanese Government/shogun during the sengoku period banning samurai from using katanas of a certain size.
Oliver Ullmann, think 18th Century Edo Japan Sword Codes like.....California gun laws.
European engeneering, design & technique supremacy.
not really, the katana user is a longswordsman, he isn't using japanese style.
true it's more style vs the swords but longswords were obsolete in most of europe by the 17th century for a reason.
Altalio it changes nothing. Polish sabre is just better weapon in design and quality of meterial, metal
The bokken guy has two significant disadvantages. One is that he's the student up against the instructor, so he has a skill gap along with the psychological disadvantage of knowing that the instructor is the instructor and expected to win. That expectation is hard to overcome, all by itself.
The second is that he's using a katana as a stubby, curved longsword. Yes, you can do it, just like you can use a Colt revolver in place of a Mauser rifle. But they aren't the same thing.The Katana is a two handed saber more than a curved longsword. By wielding it like that he's sacrificing reach and creating needless openings.
And here we are...the princes of the universe. Here we belong...fighting for survival. We've come to be the rulers of you all...
Sabre is the best kind of weapon in all mankind i dunno why everybody sting on that poor katana. If it'll be a true fight, katana will crush after first collision with sabre. The biggest weakness of katana is, a brittle material in blade's core. It's sharp and deathly but if you hit hardest blade like sabre it'll be ruin.
exactly. thats why England conquered the whole world using katanas...
Actually the edge is what's brittle. The core iis more shock resistant
Sabre is clearly the GOAT sword, the fact that every millitary eventually adopted it speaks to that fact. But there haven't been enough cool cartoons or hollywood dramas about sabres I guess so it will continue to be underrated for a japanese butter knife
Is the katana good against anything at all?
+Sniper Melon Of course it is. ultimately the difference between two fighters will be predominately decided by their own skill and tactics, the weapon only provides some smaller advantages or disadvantages in the context and situation. Firstly, the katana is better from the draw, so if swords are not already drawn, it has the advantage there. Secondly, it is better in confined spaces than many swords because it is a small two handed sword. The power and leverage that a two handed sword gives but in a smaller package.
One thing we have frequently seen in swordsmanship of all kinds, as well as other weapons, is that range is an advantage in situations where it can be utilised. If you had a katana of equal length to a longsword for example, there would be nothing really in it, balanced and all down to the fighters.
How the katana becomes unstuck by certain weapons is in fact the same way the European longsword does. In that both weapons are quite universal instruments to be used in a wide array of combat, from civilian to military, unarmoured and armoured, the list goes on. In this regard a weapon well honed for a particular job, like the rapier, for unarmoured civilian combat, can have an edge in that context.
Also, don't read too much into this particular video. It isn't a fair fight. Sabre user has a lot more experience and is the instructor of the other fencer who is using the katana for the first time (trained in longsword).
+academy of historical fencing
Ok thanks, it's just that in almost any sparring video I see involving katanas, the one wielding is almost never seems to get a hit. I'm glad you cleared that out for me. :)
+Sniper Melon Check out some more videos that we have with Katana in. We constantly vary the fighters using each weapons. In this one Nick used sabre and won. But then look at Nick using katana vs Esther sabre and buckler, katana wins. Mike using katana against Rob with longsword, katana wins. Then Mike using longsword against Gareth, longsword wins. Mike using Katana vs Nick with Rapier is close, as the rapier has difficulty making safe hits and not be struck by the afterblow.
All of those results above are a result of skill and experience being the core reason for victory. In most sword fights, the sword you are using can only give a small advantage or disadvantage. It is only when you get to extremes like sword vs spear where the balance tips heavily,
Academy of Historical Fencing Alright, I'll check those out. Thank you.
+carl jansen Yea, I never understand people who argue that 1 handed weapons have "better range". There is no law that says you have to keep keep both hands on the weapon the entire match.
Nice balance and posture from the sabre.
Saber's threat range to own target exposure is greatly enhanced due to being one handed and standing side on. The 2nd hand on the Katana pulls the body up into the danger zone if you want to attack. As distance is speed the sabre player has a massive advantage here. . Although possible he is the more experienced fighter also?
Pretty sure the guy with the Katana is just a HEMA guy with a katana..... just saying xD
Well, by holding your weapon as baseball bat, you can't win against a saber, the saber is long ranged, when the katana is short range, less agile, less feints possible. It is still a very good weapon, though against a saber trained holder, you can be a real samuraï or not, you still have high risks to lose.
In my experience the opposite would be true. Having two hands on your weapon gives you better control. Both weapons look the same length. Yes the saber has more reach because holding a weapon with one hand gives you a bit extra reach, however saying the katana is short range and saber is long range is an extreme exaggeration. And the weapon itself is not any less agile or has less feints available. If anything you can argue the wielder is less agile and knows less feints. Lastly if it were a true samurai against a standard officer with a saber, I'm betting on the samurai for the sole fact that he's put in more training and his armour negates a lot of what the saber could do to him.
Maidenheart Productions If you add some armor, yes, the katana will be victorious. But don't think an officer with a saber has less training than a samuraï. Wielding a saber and using it is very hard. The saber gives you an extra reach of around 30 cm. Wich is not to neglect, the problem of the katana to me, is that you have to move your entire body to compensate the reach against a saber, making you slower in your blows. If you hold your weapon with both hands, you lock a lot of movement in your arms, the things you are able to do then is limited to up and down, turning the weapon, and thrust forward and backward. It is way harder to me to hit an enemy in the back of the knee, on the hand, or in the back with a katana. That's also my personnal experience, I tested loads of weapons, and my favorite are the German messer, the Swiss saber and the the Polish saber. They're definetly the most agile to me, and yet have a cutting power far superior to most of the weapons.
While I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, I'm gonna have to disagree with the overall point you're making.
GUYS, it's in the description. "The user of the katana (bokken) here has no training in Japanese sword arts, but is a student of the European equivalent, the longsword." Or did they edit that in afterwards? Anyway, look up any decent kendo video and you'll notice that the katana user in this video seems to be drunk, drugged or something because he moves sooo slooowly. Also, Japanese swordfighting respects total dedication to the attack only. Defense is frowned upon. This frequently resulted in two dead katana users but I'm just saying the Japanese swordfighting is about getting inside your opponent's reach and kill him with the most devastating slash or cut. It's definitely not about being a pussy and trying to block or retreat.
the skill gap between fighters is too large.
+Syakirin57 too large for what? Too large to draw conclusions of how they would fair against one another? Yes. But that was never implied in the video. It is as described, and fights were rarely fair. This is just one encounter of the two weapons, you will find varied skill of both fighters throughout all our videos.
Academy of Historical Fencing when you said katana vs sabre i was expecting both skill fighter fight with the weapon they are skilled with. Not like this where one is much more skilled than the other. I never said the fight is wrong and not fair. I am just expressing my disapointment is all.
+Ben It wasn't an even match. But also, why should the katana have been longer? Most katana were in the 27-29" blade range, the one in the video is 30", and the grip also longer than typical. The sabre is matched to a British 1803 infantry officers sword that is actually a whisker shorter than most sabres used on foot.
How long are the average sabre and katana blades? I assume the ones in the video were typical length.
Robert R The katana used here is a whisker longer than the average, at 30". The Katana varied immensely over different time periods, but could be said as a very rough average to be 27-29". The sabre is 31.5", and is matched to an original British pattern sword used from 1803-1822. Most infantry sabres are 31-33" in blade length.
i'm making an animated series and one of the scenes has two characters sword fighting one with a saber and the other with a katana, this really helped me, thank you lots 👍
Nice, but you might want to checkout this much more recent video we have done with much more varied technique , linked below.
ruclips.net/video/ItuIgDlVVIs/видео.html
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Thank you again
Europeans just do war better.
+Luke William History has proved that time and time again.
+Luke William Instead of celebrating how Europeans defeated the ottomans at Vienna, one could wonder how they got as far as Vienna in the first place if we're so good at war.
Europeans really only got really good at this war thing in the later half of the 17th century. Before that we were generally no better than the Arabs/persians and the Chinese... Since the Romans ofc. The Romans could do war and do it better than anyone else on the planet.
Pasan Etternavn You're right he should have said the West just does war better. A lot of people consider Rome (not the Italian one) as European but these same people also think Egypt was black and The Middle East is actually East enough to not be Western but Russia is still somehow Western so you can't really expect too much in terms of accuracy.The real Europeans were painting their faces with mashed fruit while the Romans were building walls.
Romans were Europeans FYI lol
Who's most people? Greeks and Romans were white. Being Mediterranean is not the same thing as middle eastern. Let me guess.... You think Spaniards are Latinos? Lol
Hi, kendo player here.
I love that the longsword fencer in this one has awareness of the limitations of the tsuba and is only attempting "kenjutsu appropriate" blocks and counter attacks😁
I want to be part of this, where could I learn to use historical weapons?
Where in the world are you?
The Sabre's hand guard allows you more safely put the sword further away from your body, effectively giving it a significant reach advantage. For this type of sparring in this 1v1 context, where its' really just about tagging the other person, I think the Sabre has the edge as a weapon. Katana's are still awesome swords though with many strengths
The katana would traditionally have been accompanied by sturdy armour, but the sabre was accompanied by muskets and cannon. There is no way the japanese would have pulled off an invasion of 18th century europe. The japanese army had Kyo Gunto Sabres during WW2, katana were ceremonial antiques, not viable battlefield equipment, or for that matter parade equipment.
The katana was not designed to be a superior sword, but instead a durable and long lasting sword. They were made from scrap metal at a time when Chinese swords were extremely sophisticated and fast, but not particularly durable, and the Japanese sought to find a method of not relying upon chinese arms suppliers. The Chinese had much better access to metal ores and technology from all over Eurasia, and the viewpoint of the katana as the ultimate bladed weapon is rather misguided. There are remarkable swords from all over the world, but the 18th and 19th century european swords were arguably the last stand and highest evolution of the blade before cased ammunition took over - although it should be noted that in Africa there are some incredible 20th century spears with four foot long super skinny hardwood handles and long sword-like blades which I would argue are possibly the finest and last bladed weapon before the penetration of the FN and AK rifle into mass use reduced bladed weapons to ornamental value. One should probably not discount the various machete derivatives which are very useful for getting through foliage as well as enemies, and the gurkha rifles carry those to this day.
What's the difference between a military sabre and other sabers? Is it simply just more recently made?
It is a modern term to differentiate the military used sabre from later duelling sabre, and Olympic sport sabre. It is also used to refer to the standardised period of pattern swords and military sword training manuals (late 18th to late 19th century).
It is not necessary to be a great master to observe that the training of the dussak saber is greater than that of the katana boy, the saber and its iconic fan movement where the tip looks down is easily counteracted with the third kata of nitten ryu the "Earth strike, which combines lightning cut and sparkle strike" also with some of the many kata that we see because with the wakizashi that same Polish saber movement is widely used.
This video rocks it. I recently started a HEMA club at my university. We all want to do saber but cannot use metal. I see you guys have white nylon training sabers? Please, who manufactires and sells them? What is their name? I have looked everywhere but cannot find them.
+Banthablaster Prime Black Fencer in Spain. You can order direct, but there also resellers in the US and Canada depending on where you are. They are excellent.
Why is the katana wielder holding the sword so it is vertical instead of pointed at the opponent's throat? This leaves him wide open. I am impressed with the footwork and use of the sabre.
dom214 Katana user is trained not in Katana but European longsword, where guards close to vertical are common practice (though the Japanese taught them too). They rely not on threatening with the point, but the threat of the powerful cut.
I'm a big fan of the military sabre style. One question: even though the katana is shorter and, being wielded two-handed, probably has shorter reach than the sabre, could it do more damage being two-handed? That seemed to happen occasionally in this duel.
+Kaleb H Theoretically yes. Look to cutting tests on tatami and you will see the power afforded by a two handed grip. In reality, usually not. Watch those cutting tests and see how they move their body in a way that you might cut a tree with an axe, but not handle yourself in a fight, it would be too slow and create too many openings. The two handed grip does however provide the leverage to stop and start the blade quickly, as well as provide strong slicing actions, and more powerful cuts from a shorter range of motion, where the sabre needs rotational movement to build up substantial power.
Ok, that's very interesting, thank you for answering. :)
Honestly, the dominance the saber showed here really suprised me, I figured it would do well to begin with, just because it's about the same length while being more dexterous, but I wasnt expecting it to this degree
There is an experience aspect here too as the sabre user had a lot more experience, but ultimatley yes the dexterity of the sabre is very challenging to overcome. See a much more recent test we did of similar, but with steel, in this case a heavier cavalry sabre, which even considring that mass still has great dexterity.
ruclips.net/video/ItuIgDlVVIs/видео.html
Where can someone learn fencing with historical style sabres like this, or what are the "schools" or institutions to look for? In our area there is only "olympic" style fencing offered, or a little bit of Kung Fu things or MMA places, but nothing in this context.
In polish army :v
A HEMA club would be a good start.
Well, I watch a lot of these videos. The HEMA people in my area are all Medieval (which is ok) so I practice the basics and touch base with an out of town sabre guy every couple of months to correct technique. It's a lot slower than being in a club but I enjoy it.
After this friendly match, they both went on to form the Stevie&Nick's Fleetwood Mac Memorial Band.
Hi I'm looking for learning saber sword. I have a thick saber sword like that one. I wonder where do I can find website or downloadable module for learning. The style of the saber man in this video was really awesome. I have difficulties to use it flexible style like that.
+erzal83 The manual we primarily practice from is from the late 18t/early 19th century and is available free online. 'The Art of Defence on Foot with Broadsword and Sabre'. A quick search and you will find it on google books.
We are in the process of making a thorough range of lessons according to this system and you will find a few of those on our channel already with new ones being added regularly.
If you can, find a club nearby or some events to go to where you can learn from experienced instructors. If that is not possible, find some like minded people and start learning from our videos and the original source material.
Two things I want to say
1. Where can I get a saber like that. Anything advice would be. Appreciated.
2. I like using a Katana over other swords but am not mad about it like everyone else. What they need to understand is that the guards and positions of said guards are different than that of a longsword but the cuts tend to be at the same angle. However here is what the Katana could have done differently. Use better blade control (two handed weapons have better leverage that one handed weapons), use long guard more with the Katana. Since it is the only guard in this style that can protect the full body more than other guards in this style don't try those techniques you would use like a longsword. Use smaller cuts. Skilled swordsmen (either European and Asian) use smaller motions of cutting.
try blackfencer, only shop i can come up from the top of my mind, they got both steel and synthetic swords
Awesome! That's just awesome!
Ok so watching this I wonder what would happen if they katana user were p try a splash from the ground up or a draw slash. I'm curious as to that question because in my experience the draw stance is very effective if done correctly. the way I use it(and I know some will say it's wrong but hey it's worked :p ) Is to wait for my opponent to strike first then quickly step and draw my blade through the opponent. I'm just curious as to how well that would work
+Jeremy Francis If you are referring to the Iaijutsu/Battojutsu techniques, I will tell you from my personal experience in those arts that the very first thing you learn is that you having the sword in the saya while the opponent has his drawn is one of the worst spots to be in, it is not a wanted position. That is why the art was so popular in ancient Japan, its basically a "self defense" art equivalent.
that being said, your upward slash from, I'm assuming, a Sha no Kamae (Waki in Kendo, Sha is with the hips lowered for more center and power) CAN be tricky for the saber user, it essentially depends on a few factors, timing and distance being huge. if the Saber user is taller, that will be hard to pull off as your reach is shortened in the first portion of the movement. If you did manage to pull it off though, I will admit that if properly performed you stand as good a chance of any of collapsing the Saber's guard. Thats not to say that it would be easy to do, but I would want to sidestep or retreat from that specific attack. It employs lots of muscles. That being said, if you initiated with that, I would probably just slip and counter (withdraw front leg behind the back one, pulling my body back with that action. that should be enough room, and bring my saber down on your head as I did so)
If you were starting from the Saya, and I knew that you were going to do that particular attack (probably would know it too, you are in a sword fight and haven't bothered to draw your sword.) My knee jerk response would be a passing step with a thrust, hand in tierce (nails down), edge toward your scabbard. This way, my swords edge is over your hands, plus I have brought my off hand to the front, and I would either put it on your hand or your sword's hilt. from there I can command you (old term for basically grapple). probably a rear leg take down using my saber thats in your chest as top leverage point. Sounds like it would work, but we would see.
I noticed kendo they strike at the opponents hand more frequently, but the positive with a cutlass or saber is there are ones with hand cups making hand strike essentially useless
Hand sniping is very common in any sword system, not just in kendo
yeah im in the states. What are the resellers here?
+ni8shadow www.southcoastswords.com/
What kind of saber is the guy using? I know it's only a practioner's sabre, but what is original model?
+Shifu Master The training sword is a Black Fencer model sold as a Polish sabre, though we use them because they represent the British 1803 infantry officers sword, and various flank officer variants in use at the time. They are near perfect in size, curve, weight and guard type for this.
like in all weapon comparisons this demonstrates the skill of the user with his chosen weapon; it appears the katana user has real issues with timing as well as using what appears to be a more western style. A very interesting video non the less keep on sparring and sharing it with us.
sabre sparring style seems very similar to talwar fighting technique. Great job.
Tulwar is a kind of sabre, the only mechanic difference is the very short grip and disc pommel of the tulwar maintain a more fixed hammer grip, as opposed to the more dexterous nature of the handshake option and wrist rotations on a sabre with a longer grip and backstrap.
Their is also more point work and a strong reliance on lunge and linear based fighting, as opposed to the Tulwar, which is used with more passing and non-linear footwork. Really though the differences are more in the cultural martial arts than the weapon itself, which is closely related.
30 Spaniards routed 600 samurai’s in the Philippines, I can see now that Hungarian, and polish hussars would have swept the floor with them…
saber is so fluid... it's deadly art form.
Where I can buy this type(material) of sabre?
Black Fencer (Spain), they have resellers all around the world. That is for the sabre, but they make all sorts of swords inc katanas and steel versions now too.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Thank you!
The guy using the Katana isn't a Kendo expert so this isn't an equal match so much as to show how to use the different styles while practicing.
Did the Japanese have shields? Because looking at this, the blades of the Katana and saber look very similar, but the sabers one handed and the katana's two.
+Richie Demo well if he katanas 2 handed do u think they had a 3rd hand or something?
+Richie Demo The blade on a katana is actually very different to that of the sabre, the katana is a lot thicker across the edge and very rigid. This also means it is a lot heavier than most european swords of similar size.
To answer your question about Japan having shields, simply put, no. Japan suffered from a very specific fighting style and lacked a lot of the weapons used by even her neighbouring countries. This meant that they lacked much of the reason to have a shield, as well as the concept of why one would require such a device.
+Richie Demo horseback use.
the curve makes it very effective at slashing infantry while riding.
+Richie Demo The infantry had very strong armour a fight between to skilled swordsmans could last for hours at a time.
Jaapnese in warring state has no shield (there was some sort of shield on their shoulder armour). The avarage height of japanese is so low that their yumi bows was built in large size, yet their archers still couldn't managed to deal enough damage to the armour so the japanese just ditch the shields altogether
That man with the saber is good.
So just some technical analysis from a HEMA and budo enthusiast. The sabre has a clear wrist cut advantage at a distance of course other hand is for balance but could wield a pistol a real good combo for SHTF. The Katana, although not used in that was in these two fights (there was another fight with different people) is defeating the first sabre parry and moving closer due to blade leverage, where good jiujitsu technique could be used to offset the sabre opponent locking out the sabre while still able to slash with the katana using close up footwork. The sabre wielder would of course have a small dagger or even a pistol in that case you can imagine.
Sabre and Revolver = The perfect pair for Home Defense if you want to go Colonial Style.
Or the WW1 Officer Style
I feel like the katana guy is mixing in a lot of other styles. I guess you go with the knowledge you have . . . gotta start with a new sword somewhere. The Sabre guy's posture is superb! Props to both!
Where can I get a practice saber like that?
+ni8shadow Black Fencer in Spain. They also have resellers in the US if you are based there.